Bill Kristol: Keep Up the Pressure, Dems

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Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Daily. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Monday, so of course we have editor-at-large Bill Kristol. Hey, Bill. Hey, Tim. How are you? I'm doing well. I've got some announcements for people real quick. Tickets for the live. ACC country are on sale. Bill is going to be with us in Atlanta. You know, we're going to do Atlanta stuff while we're there. So get your tickets now. We have, I think, a really exciting guest. I don't want to jinx it, coming in Charlotte. Not that Bill's not exciting for Atlanta. He is. I can take it. I can take it. I'm not, you know, offended. It's just, I'm happy to be second banana as me, you know? I think people will be excited about the Charlotte guest. And I'm planning on getting a little loose. I've got one of my buddies coming in Columbia. So any of the shows, will be a win. Get your tickets to the bulwark.com slash events. Last week, Bill and I discussed that the Labor Day pod be a retrospective on 1994 and 2006. And then also kind of a look ahead to this midterms, sort of a wave year special episode. We heard a lot of feedback that people want that. So I'm getting my Harriet Meyers stories ready. Bill's refreshing his memory about 1994. I got this t-shirt brought to me. My former pod co-host Cameron Kasky brought this to me. This is a operation. Desert storm t-shirt. So, you know, that was a freedom and justice for all, you know, so we're kind of getting in the nineties spirit for Phil crystal. Thank you, Tim. I'm, I'm, I'm pleased you didn't have a world war two t-shirt for me or world war one, you know, Spanish American war operation desert storm, the good old days anyway. Uh, so that's all coming up today's show, you know, the world is so strange. I guess we're going to start with war if we're going to do some operation desert storm references. We'll start. We'll start with the war being back on ish in Iran. There was an exchange of fire in the straight of Hormuz yesterday. First us forces struck Iranian launchers on the Larrick Island. Um, the rockets were allegedly according to central command set to disperse sea mines into the straight. Now that is interesting because the administration was bragging to Axios just like 36 hours prior to that, that the seas were open. Seas were. Open and you know, the seas are open when you've got a bomb, the launchers that have the sea mines on them. That's a great sign that Caesar up in the insurance companies love that hours later, Iran retaliated by firing a few missiles towards Jordan, all of which were intercepted. We are kind of running out of interceptors though. So, uh, partial good news there. That is the state of play. Uh, meanwhile, there's also a leak with some warnings from, uh, top generals, uh, military leaders advising Hegseth, the prolonging large scale operations that Iran's unsustainable. At risk weakening their ability to confront threats everywhere. There are too many troops there. 50,000. The warnings came from the head of the army, Navy and air force and four star commanders overseeing us operations in Europe, Asia and Latin America. That was quite the leak to the Washington post. So that's the state of play. Honestly, it's good that some of the military or someone in the defense department, I suppose, or maybe else around the government, the national security council are revealing certain things to us since the military, the defense department has been utterly unrevealing about anything that's happened. I'm very struck by this recent report. You know, I, people are getting people who were in the military are getting more and more alarmed and also outraged about what's happened to our bases there. For example, something we've discussed before and the degree to which the damage that was done to huge us hubs by Iranian drones, disabling them. And we know that that's why, you know, the sailors on the USS Lincoln couldn't get the provisions and all that, particularly that base in Bahrain, the naval. Yes, it's a huge, it's our biggest, I think maybe our biggest naval base anywhere, certainly abroad or anywhere. In the region, certainly. And the idea that it just gets put out of commission basically. And then of course, we're not told about it and, and they sort of mislead everyone about it and, oh, we're choice. We're dominant. We're winning. It's a slaughter of the Iranians. And anyway, yeah, it's bad. Yeah. Just on this, this was a, is captain John Cordell, retired captain, like wrote about this in military times, but, uh, you know, it's basically saying that the more we learn about the attacks on the NSA, the Naval support base in Bahrain during the opening days. Yeah. Of Operation Epic Fury, the clearer it becomes why, why the news of its near destruction was not initially reported or acknowledged extensive damage, et cetera, et cetera. So the base is more damaged than acknowledged casualties, or at least the injuries, the number of injured troops more than they were initially acknowledging, you know, some of this anytime in war, like there's some element of this where like, you don't want to, you know, signal like, Hey, we're really fucked in Bahrain, right? Like there, there's some strategic reasons to not do this, but, but. But this feels like more than that, especially when you've listened to ex-military people, as far as the degree to which they've been hiding the ball. And you put it on top of all the lying about the strage is open and we're winning and they're decimated. They have no capacity left to use anything, to do anything anywhere. And then suddenly they're launching missiles at Jordan, you know, again. Yeah. And it is true. Like the blockade of the Iranian chips does seem to be having some impact. If you look at reports on the Iranian economy. So that is not wholly made up. Like there's something. To that. And who knows what like pressure that could end up putting on them. And like ships have been being able to get through the Strait of Hormuz recently, but it's just not anywhere near the pre-war rate. And, you know, again, we're not anywhere near any sort of actual sustainable deal, obviously, based on the missiles firing over the weekend. Yeah. And based on just the fact that everyone in the Middle East and around the world, as we can see from different reports, is adjusting to this new reality where we were unable to impose our will on Iran. Unable to keep the Strait open. Unable to keep it open going forward without some degree of bowing to Iranian demands and pressure. The nuclear program is whatever it was. It hasn't changed. You know, I mean, there's not suddenly the Iranians not hurrying to the table to assure us that they're giving up their nuclear weapons. Trump stopped demand, you know. So it's a failed war and failed wars have real consequences. Average gas price is still over four bucks a gallon, too. So negative impacts here. On that Washington Post thing. More threats from the administration to crack down on the leakers. I was a serious leak. Across the board, you just continue to see assaults on, you know, on free speech, on efforts to communicate the truth about the administration. Trump was threatening Kristen Welker ridiculously over the weekend. We just continue to see like a lot of examples of this from the administration. Right. And then also hiring people there at the Defense Department. We're going to get to those guys. OK. We're saving them in the middle. I can't keep track of all the thuggishness at the. It is terrible. I just want to come back to maybe Hexeth also, since we all have such a low opinion of him. But having a thug running the Defense Department, I mean, is bad, really bad for the country in so many ways, in foreign policy and at home. I think it's really come home, hasn't it? I feel like I've always been, of course, critical of Hexeth, as you have. But I feel like it's really come home. Well, of course, the war does that right. And then in the last month or two or three, just across the board, how damaging and dangerous it is. Yeah. An incompetent thug at that. Not even like really a skilled one. Speaking of thuggishness in foreign policy, the Venezuela oil deal over the weekend is total madness. I just want to read some. This is from The Wall Street Journal's report on this. The U.S. government is going to take a direct financial stake in a private company, private-ish, that would be granted century-long rights to some of the world's largest proven oil reserves in Venezuela and tie us to the unelected government in Venezuela. The U.S. would take a 35% passive stake in this company that's run by Alejandro Betancourt, and we'd secure preferential rights to purchase 20% of its production at cost. Betancourt did face criminal investigations of alleged money laundering in Spain and Switzerland. So that's the guy that we're all going into business with. That's the U.S. government. And the substance agreement is in direct conflict with Venezuela's constitution. The coup was also in violation of the constitution. And then private oil companies in America are going, what are we supposed to do now? We're going to be competing against the government that is pillorying the foreign country and taking some of the oil at cost. Why would we do that? What is the stability here? What happens when Trump's gone? What happens if Rodriguez is gone? It is really a crazy deal. To have the U.S. be part of a state-run, essentially, oil company in Venezuela. I mean, I think the odds of anything real happening there are pretty low. I mean, you know, this is, as you say, it's like Trump's negotiating something that the next U.S. government's not going to feel that it should go ahead with. And the interim government of Venezuela is negotiating something that's not democratically legitimate or any, you know, approved by some assembly there or anything real. So, but it's undercutting U.S. companies. Don't you think it's mostly, it's a PR stunt. I mean, it might have some effect in, I guess, reassuring markets that there's plenty of oil, so they shouldn't, none of that oil incidentally can come to the market for years. I mean, so it won't affect current prices. Maybe it reassures people that we're not drawing down the oil reserves quite as much as we are, or that they'll be filled up again in two or three or four years with this oil from Venezuela. But it's a PR stunt. It's to make it look like everything's working out. You remember, you remember that Venezuela one? That one went better than Iran. And now, look, we've got a good deal on oil. I mean, a socialist PR stunt, I guess. Yeah, I mean, part of it is he's saying this is going to help refill up the reserves that we've been draining. And I think that there is maybe like some kind of market bullying like they were doing at the beginning of the Iran war, like a feeling like, oh, you know, there's going to be increased supply into the market. And, you know, that puts downward pressure on the prices. But I mean, like there's so many ways to criticize the insanity. Like we're doing imperialism again, you know, like it's the 1800s. And it's also like we're getting in business with a corrupt, illegitimate, really Venezuelan socialist government and like a corrupt favored businessman of the socialist government that did alleged crimes, you know, in Europe. It is just a completely unacceptable way for us to do business. And I don't know. And I think that Trump, I guess, bets that. It's like too complicated for people to get and that the right wing that would be, you know, up in arms if it was Barack Obama getting into business with a socialist government, you know, just betting correctly that they're not going to push back on it. I guess. I also don't know how much people believe it. I do feel like, don't you think, I'm curious what you think. The Iran war, I feel like it's gotten, it's been so bad. Yeah. So there's been so many lies and it's gone so badly and the real world effects are so obviously bad, ranging from gas crisis at home to the geostrategic. Yeah. Implications in the Middle East and abroad. I think Trump's effort, desperate efforts to kind of save it or in this case, you know, distract to Venezuela. See, that one's working out well. I don't know. I feel like it's not going to work, actually. Do you think politically? I mean, here at home? I mean, I don't know that it will actually work politically. No, I do think that it is like setting a dangerous precedent for us to be going back to this type of form of policy, right? I am for the future. Assuming that there's a future Rubio or Vance administration, like this is like now an acceptable part of the toolkit. I think that's concerning. And, you know, I think that for Trump, in kind of more of an amorphous way, you know, if he ever is able to get back on a positive foot politically to be able to like kind of position himself as like a dealmaker, like, look what I did in Venezuela. Like, I got us all the oil. Like, I told you these other guys were stupid. They took us to a war in Iraq and they never got the oil. And I did it. I think it probably doesn't work, but I think it's still pretty appalling and ground that's worth fighting over, of course. Oh, very much so. And I think it's really damaging. I mean, I say this as someone who spent my college and grad school years, you know, arguing against all these Marxist or kind of quasi-Marxist historians who were great critics of American imperialism. It was all based on economic interests. And there were cases, obviously, in the 20s and 30s where that was very much the case. And some of it still in the 50s and 60s, United Fruit and all that. We discussed that a few weeks ago. But it's all about rapacious, you know, corporations and governments and croaty capitalism and crooks basically getting rich off imperialism. Now, what everyone thinks of U.S. foreign policy since then, I think we're pretty innocent of that. I mean, you know, obviously Iraq was a mistake and terrible cost and all that, but it wasn't for the sake of, as you say, taking their oil. Quite the contrary. We were so proud when they voted, you know, in their first democratic election there with the purple fingers. Remember that and all that in 2004 and 5? What's happened is that all the democracy we're supposed to be bringing to Venezuela, I haven't noticed an election being teed up there. I don't think we are. And Marco, I don't think, cares about that. Getting the American public to support doing things abroad is obviously costly and not in anyone's immediate interest. You can't really prove that you have to do these things. Getting other nations to support us, that does require having some sense that it's a good faith effort to improve the situation there as well as improve our own strategic situation, obviously. And in that respect, Trump has just given all that moral high ground away. And you could say, well, moral high ground, what's that worth? But it is worth something, actually, both at home and abroad. I will say it. You can confirm whether or not this is in your words, but they're making the Marxist professors that were criticizing it right. They're making them correct. You're right. Like their critique was correct. And again, there are long-term potential unintended consequences to that. It was something I was thinking about this morning. Like the Venezuelan people, for a while, there was this fake nonsense where, you know, we were putting people in jail. We were putting people on gulag because we were so concerned that there were Venezuelan gangs invading the country. And it's like, OK, but if we're that concerned about that, wouldn't this potentially, you know, incite future hard feelings or future like desires to, you know, get back at the United States? You know, if there are these scary gangs in Venezuela. And so now we're going to, you know, kind of just basically rape their country of their resources and take it. Like, I just, there are consequences to that that are sometimes, you know, not necessarily direct and predictable. for the last few days. AIDS is really an achievement, right? It's an important part of what it means to live in a free country and a liberal democracy. And again, this is just being tossed away. Also, these guys, I mean, I don't think that the Kurt Schlichters of the world had any integrity before. But like, shouldn't Salem Radio have to say something about this? I mean, Hugh Hewitt's guest host was on the payroll of the government and not revealing it, not telling anyone. And it's one thing to just be propagandizing for Trump just because you like it or because you want attention. That's not great. But to be doing it and be financially benefiting from it with our money, my taxpayer dollars is going to pay for Kurt Schlichter's erectile dysfunction pills. I don't like that. And I would think that Salem would have to say something about it in town hall. It was kind of a horrifying image. You just put him out in my mind. Sorry, Kurt Schlichter, for people who don't understand the background, has been long posted about people at the bulwarks. Sorry, Bill Kozier's dicks. He is very big about attacking us as cucks and blah, blah, blah, and like wimpy and like the mega men or the real men, which to me means you're overcompensating for something. And like, now he's been taking secret taxpayer money. No, it is. It is terrible. And again, if we had a Congress, it could look into this, I suppose. And maybe they will if one or both houses change control in November. They could look into it. You know, there are this continuing resolution is coming up. And when the Senate gets to that point, it's going to be a big deal. And since a week and a half, two weeks, I guess, they have to resolve the House and Senate version. So someone's going to have to vote for something to continue funding the federal government. Why are we funding this? I mean, shouldn't the Democrats say this is a tiny little thing. It's only a few million dollars. But you know what? No funding for any of this. And also no funding deals to save for all the horrible things ISIS is doing and no funding for a bunch of other things, I would say. But I mean, I feel like people are sort of passively saying, well, Trump won the elections. I guess we have to accept this. Really? Thank you, Bill. Let's talk about that. Before we get to Congress, just one more to our friend Hugh Hewitt. I'm just waiting to hear about your statement, your position on your guest host being a secret propagandist to the government, because, I mean, I guess Hugh Hewitt's been a propagandist for Trump for 10 years now. But I would think that this would cross some journalistic threshold over there at Salem, though I'm not holding my breath. 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Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Tom Thumb. Now, through September 29, save on all your favorite personal care essentials and earn four times the points. Shop in-store or online for items from your favorite brands like Native, Pantene, Crest, Always, Gillette, Oral-B, and Tampax and earn four times the points. Points can be redeemed for discounts on future purchases. On groceries and gas. Get these deals before they're gone. Offer ends September 29. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit Albertsons or TomThumb.com for details. Your point on the house. Congress has been on vacation for five weeks, the house. Great summer. I mean, you know, everybody needs a vacation. I took a vacation two weeks this year. I thought it was pretty generous for myself. You took a one-week vacation, but you know, we're working in the private sector. Okay. I've been off for five weeks. Again, they're taking our money as well, not just Kurt Schlichter. And they're coming back to pass this budget that you mentioned, this continuing resolution to avoid a government shutdown. And then their plan is to go back on vacation. I just don't know why the Democrats would not just absolutely do everything possible to, you know, put sticks in the gears of this plan. Like, these guys should not just be allowed to come here and basically under the cover of darkness, pass a budget, and then go back and hang out at Bedminster and go golfing again for a couple more weeks. And these are public servants. I don't, maybe if they want to jam it through with all Republican votes on a party line vote, then make them do that, I guess. And maybe that will be what happens. I like, we'll have to see. But when the Democrats, I'd be, you know, using every procedure possible on the House floor to raise the issues you just laid up. I mean, the fact that we're secretly gandous with our taxpayer dollars, the ICE killings. What about the ballroom? What about the ARC? What about the stupid war in Iran? I mean, no funding for any of this. I'm sorry. And using the ability they have in the two days or whatever it is that they're in D.C., you would think that they should be going maximum pressure applied. Totally. They should scream bloody murder and they should oppose the German resolutions and all the different things they can do. There's more you can do in the Senate and the House. I guess the idea is the House will pass the Senate. CR this week and get out of town, or that's the greatest way for them to do it. But yes, they should fight bloody. I was on a call just the other day and it was, you know, after November, we really have to stop some of this stuff. You know, you can try to stop some of it now. You may not succeed, but put them on the spot. Let all these Republicans vote for this, for propagandizing for the Defense Department. We've been complaining about this for a couple of weeks now. Have you heard any compelling pushback to this? Like to our point of view? I think the only argument, the political argument is they're doing Democrats are doing well in the midterm elections. Risking a government shutdown throws a, you know, unpredictable spanner into the works. And let's just let good enough be well enough, be well enough, however you say that. And not mess around too much and let people go home and campaign. And we're doing okay in these campaigns. A little bit of prevent defense, I would say, two months out. Yeah, I'm not compelled by that. I'm not compelled by that. Let's talk about the state of play and assess that. There's a poll that you flagged from a U.S. Amherst. Just over one-fifth, 21% of Trump voters now express second thoughts about their vote. One in six, 16% now say they would change their 2024 vote if given the opportunity. I'm always kind of a little bit skeptical of these kinds of polls. And like, they're a little bit self-selecting. But even if it's half that, right, that's still a pretty meaningful number. And it's meaningful in particular. And this is why I'm not keen on prevent defense. Because the places that they need to win are places Trump won by 11%, 12%, 13%. Like, that's the difference between having a good year and having a 1994 year, which we get to next week, right? It's like, can you win in these places that Trump won by 12%, 13%, both in the House and, most importantly, though, in the Senate? Iowa, Ohio, Alaska, Texas, maybe Kansas, maybe whatever, Florida, Mississippi, whatever. Can you win in enough of those places to make it a real wave? And, you know, that humorous poll basically says that, like, that's in play, but it's not there. Yeah, totally. I had the exact same reaction to it when I saw it last night. You know, it was embargoed for this morning, but now it's out. So, yeah, I mean, that 16% may be high, but let's just do a little very elementary math. I mean, the states that we're talking about is the Trump plus 11 plus 12 states that the Democrats need to win to win the Senate. Iowa, Alaska, Ohio, Texas, and then Kansas, which actually Trump's margin in Kansas was a little, was the same as in Iowa. I don't know why people don't put Kansas in there. I don't know why more in the first year, but anyway, and Florida for that matter, a point worse. Those are states with Trump. got, I think in almost every case, right around 55%, 55 or 56, right, in those states. So let's do the math. Let's not say 16% of the Trump voters wouldn't vote from this time. Let's say it's 10%, as you were saying. 10% of 55 is 5.5. So that takes you down to 49, 50% for Trump now. Now, it's a little complicated. Not all of them will then vote for the Democrats. Some of them would just stay home. So the Democrat doesn't go up to 50 quite even if Trump comes down. But it's in play. Any state, if Trump is approval or Trump, let's call it the Trump vote today, if there were a vote today, which is what they're trying to capture that you may as well. The Trump vote today is at 48, 49. The Republican senators or Senate candidates in those states, whether it's Texas or Kansas or Iowa, et cetera, are at risk. And that's why that poll is, and look, this poll simply confirms, in a sense, other polling too. It's not like it's a weird outlier that, you know, there's plenty of state-level polling that chose these races competitive. There's national polling that chose this. Democratic edge up around seven, eight, maybe a little more if you get to the really likely voters. So it's consistent with these states being in play. And I agree, that's why you shouldn't play prevent defense. And it's why, and it is encouraging though. I mean, that's, I don't know, I guess you say I'm a little dubious about these retrospective, would you vote today for this and that? It's a little too easy to say. And the Senate vote isn't quite the same as the Trump vote, but the Trump car, you know, Ron Brownstein says this over and over. Susan Collins is the only senator in the Trump era, only Republican who has won a Senate race in a state, where Trump was below 50% approval. And so if you can, knocking down Trump remains the most important thing, which again, is a reason why the Democrats in Washington, they tell themselves this stupid story. We've got to get back to our district and campaign and back to our state, because we're such persuasive people. If we show up an extra three days in that state, it's going to make a difference. The thing that's going to make the biggest difference is getting Trump's numbers down. And the way, one way to do that is to expose what Trump is doing in all of his failed policies. Yeah. You really got my dander up now, because like also, there is a reversion to the mean sometimes too, at the end of these rates, I can go either way, right? I guess that's what I'm saying. Like sometimes there's a version of the mean there is there's data out there says that, you know, Democrats, for whatever reason, have pulled better in the summer recently, we could give all kinds of theories on why that would be. But like, if you're specifically talking about these red states, and like these voters, if it's if you're at that number, where Trump's at 49, right, like every vote matters. And a lot of those voters, if they're not being pounded with negative Trump information between now and November, the easy thing is to say, well, this day, I don't know, the Democrats are pretty crazy. Like, I'm just gonna, you know, the left is a little too crazy for me, I'm just gonna, you know, stick with my guns this one more time, or, or I'm not gonna vote, right? Like, I, that is the easier thing for those people to do. So you really have to keep paddle to the metal on this stuff. And I think particularly around the war, you know, I just kind of not let it get into the footwear. It's just like atmospheric noise, and nobody's talking about it anymore, because it feels like nothing has changed. It's like, no, people's lives are still being negatively impacted. Like the troops are still being that are stuck, they're still being negatively impacted, right? The gas prices, the fertilizer prices, like they got to keep driving this message. I agree, you should go to your district and do stuff. But like, they've had plenty of time fighting it out in the national narrative and continuing to put Trump on his back foot. I totally agree. I look like you could obviously in your paid advertising and in what they say back in their states, the Democratic candidates, tailor it to the states. So tariffs is a bigger issue in some of these Midwestern states where the farm economy has been clobbered by them. Very much worth focusing on that. The deportations, the ICE stuff in Ohio, I think is a very good issue to beat up Husted on, who's been timid and hasn't really said much one way or the other at this what's good, the grotesque stuff that's happening in Springfield. Florida, they're beginning to deport Venezuelans. I talked to a friend from Florida over the weekend who had been unhappy, he's where we are on these issues, unhappy that his fellow Floridians were not very alarmed by the, by the immigration stuff. They didn't feel it was happening. There was that much happening there when all the news a year it was in Minneapolis and then even before that in other places, California and elsewhere. But he said, it's now hitting home to get their numbers, to get Stephen Millich 2000 a day. You got to go after Venezuelans in Florida. That's a big TPS, formerly TPS, formerly protected category who've been now made illegal. And you know, people in Florida do not think it's a bad thing to have these Venezuelans working and living there and paying taxes and being law abiding citizens and starting businesses and stuff. So you can localize the races to the degree that is appropriate in terms of issues, but yeah, you got to keep the national pressure on. I really agree with you on that. Fall is coming, which means cough and cold season is almost here. Get ahead by stocking up on all your now through September 29th shop in-store and online to save on products like Allegra tablets, Hall's drops, Mucinex, kickstart, Zyrtec allergy relief tablets, Tylenol liquid gels, one a day men's health and Vicks Dayquil and Nyquil combo packs offer and September 29th restrictions apply. Offers may vary. This is Jana Kramer from wind down with Jana Kramer. I had this moment the other day where I realized that I don't need a week off. There are hundreds of hotel resort pools, spas and private beaches that you can be enjoying today without spending the night. I booked a one day pass at the four seasons hotel in spa Nashville. And I'm like, wow, why am I just learning about resort pass? I found myself settled into a smile. And I'm thinking this is exactly what I needed. It's a great deal. Go to resortpass.com slash Jana and use my code Jana to get $20 off when you spend a hundred dollars. We have some breaking news. Since we've been taping, Trump has given them another issue that they can campaign on if they so choose. This is a story I heard from, uh, Trump this morning. The only reason that communities throughout the USA should not want data centers is if they want to end up being backwards and poor, if they want to be successful and rich with far lower taxes and jobs all over the place, let the data rain. Wow. Okay. I've got some mixed views on the whole data center issue. It's more of a case by case issue for me. That said, sometimes there's, there's moments for good demagoguery. This might be one of those with the Democrats. And I, I, just as a strategic matter, like I've seen a lot of kind of wishy-washy kind of comments on this from Democrats. And like the numbers could not be clearer. Trump is giving them a gift. And again, it's just another issue where I think that I just, if you just look at the numbers, there could not be a better opportunity for the Democrats right now if they took the mantle. Yeah. And what you just read from Trump, of course, gives the Democrats the middle ground is Trump is just for, you can't oppose any data center anywhere, apparently, because you're standing in the way. So let the data rain, that should become a famous, you know, mission accomplished type phrase. The Democrats can say, look, we're for prior technological progress and we're for appropriate, you know, blah, blah, blah, but we have to be regulated in local communities. And they can take it away, a middle ground, which probably is the sensible place to be in terms of policy. I'd be okay with them doing pitchforks. They can also do a little pitchforks. That's a, a third pitchforks to third middle ground, but Trump's given them a huge opening, right? By this extreme position. Which is now like beyond the position of Governor Abbott in Texas, it's beyond the position of Republicans elsewhere running for office. It's beyond the position, at least the professed, the stated position of the AI companies themselves, which are all like, we want to work with people and blah, blah, blah. You know, they, they know that that's a kind of suicidal, everything. We can build whatever we want in secrecy at any scale we want, you know, with no limitations on anything at all. People are not for that and they shouldn't be. Sherrod, Abdul. Like all of these guys, like really should be out, out front on this though, and going after them. And, and to me, another angle to this that I think is politically useful is this is just another example of Trump selling out to the big tech oligarchs that people don't like. And so like, regardless of if you don't want to get into the nitty gritty of the details of every data center and which ones are good and which ones are bad and which ones are terrible for the community and what rules we need, like, uh, you can just go straight at it. Like Trump from his first, you know, Trump got elected saying that he was going to care about the forgotten man and he's betrayed you. And he got in there and his inauguration, the richest people in the world sat in the first row and he brought the richest man in the world into the white house to, and, and now he's doing the bidding of the richest people in the world that want to get even richer, uh, by building these data centers. He doesn't care at all about what's happening in your communities and health concerns or environmental concerns or anything. He just wants these, you know, tech billionaires to like him. I think that's a. Pretty compelling message. And he's in their pocket, right? Which sort of makes him weaker. You know what I mean? He's not, you know, he's kind of, he's their tool, you know, they, they, Elon Musk says jump and Trump says how high, you know? Yeah. Well, Trump is pretty like, he can't, he can't get that high, but you know, hypothetically, hypothetically, I'd like to see Trump try to get off the ground with a little hop. Okay. Back to Laura Loomer. Now that, now that my dander's up, I don't want to talk about the Michigan center race discourse. I just want to use Laura Loomer as, as a foil example for all the conversation around that. Because Laura Loomer is herself, a pretty unsuccessful podcaster really and she's a very successful influence operator she does create content but she's not at the top of the ranking she's not a megan kelly ben shapiro she's not one of these guys or women but she uses her social media feeds to pressure the administration and to advise the administration and she does so very effectively and she's basically successfully pushed out mike waltz as the national security advisor and a bunch of other people julia girl who we had on the show got fired basically because when laura loomer campaign you know broken clock white twice a day she did get milo yiannopoulos deported it seems like but that shows her influence so like this is a very influential person that has the white house of the year that is pushing republicans to hold the senate here's some tweets for her just this weekend this is about angie nixon the democratic uh candidate for senate in florida i called you a ghetto bitch because you are angie and your record proves it but you speak ebonics though so maybe i need to bark at you and tug your leash and then you'll finally understand she wrote about randy fine's speech uh randy fine is the racist congressman from florida she wrote this tonight at the rjc randy fine is calling out mainstream islam lots of cheers time for the gop to read the room speak up about the islamic takeover of america or lose the midterms islam has no place in america i would love to have cameras pointed at every mosque and a preferably in the inside as well uh here's another one when is medhi hassan going to be denaturalized secretary rubio how can this islamic invader be allowed to stay in our country he should be deported immediately so this is a very influential person and i don't understand why every republican running for office doesn't have to answer for this type of racism and this was in florida right and she actually she is herself an unsuccessful of him that was taken congressional candidate before we're in florida yeah shouldn't the police let's put the florida incumbent senator who is you know ashley moody yeah who inherited the seat right i mean it's uh run for it um up on the ballot for the first time against angie nixon who i i would not have voted for in the primary i would have voted for vinman but i think she could be a better candidate than people think i don't know i do too i think i think that i mean i think it's a very tough race but i think it's actually she's actually better for the other florida democrats and then vinman would have been just just looking at it purely and like she could kind of lift boats i think she's been very skilled in her interviews yeah i i agree with you anyway moody the senator seems like she's trying to be sort of respectable and kind of low-key kind of a katie britt type i guess you know so i'm better than those trump people but of course i'm off totally on board put her on the spot does she agree with this i mean does she agree with laura loomer and and representative fine there and uh i yeah i agree so this is where again going on the offensive and not simply playing prevent defense important oh look we've talked about this a lot as a bunch i know you care about this i care about rising anti-semitism in the country it's real it's a problem it should be called out as bad as it's gotten it's like hard to imagine a congressperson calling out mainstream jews speak out speak up about the jewish takeover of america and lose the midterms a democratic congressperson could not survive that like like and that's what a republican congressperson is saying and you know jews have no place in america right like you know and that is not the type of thing that you're hearing from even the concerning discourse on the far left and like she's saying this islam has no place in america many should be deported she's saying this with impunity right now and it's fucking it's fucking outrageous not not to mention just the disgusting like anti-black racism against angie telling her to bark it's it's just really disgusting and you know and some of my friends jewish friends my fellow jews you know kind of a little tolerant of the islamic you know these the hate islam stuff for but it's but it's ultimately of course feeds into antisemitism once you legitimate it in one place it's such a cliche to almost to say at first they come for you know you but it really is true once you legitimate this kind of uh racism or or attack on people for their religious beliefs or just their religious origins i guess you don't want to say right where they're from it legitimates it elsewhere then you can't say the other side shouldn't do it then your own side starts to do it incidentally at the same time and you're in a place yeah yeah i mean the you know maybe people should notice that the rise the rise of antisemitism is real and what does it coincide with the rise of donald trump is trump responsible for all of it no it's trump himself particularly that way not so much on the jews because for various reasons but you know once you have a climate of hatred it spills over in all kinds of ways and that's what's i i do think has happened you know yeah i'd be interested in mike rogers take on all these tweets i wish somebody would ask him about it while we're doing kind of the internal damn primary stuff and do the various factions i did want to mention the massachusetts senate primary i think are we finally done with these do we still have new hampshire ahead we still have new hampshire like delaware the new england new england for some reason is really into september primaries i think you have just the only real one left i think after this boy it's been a slog this year i'm not i'm not really looking forward to the next round but uh okay we'll see i just want to mention the seth moulton ed markey race well i have some thoughts on it but why don't i give you the floor first so i'm biased i'm a friend of seth's and i've known him a long time first met him in iraq where he was as a lieutenant one of petraeus's kind of special aides and when i went over in 07 you know they brought a few of us over there to see what the progress they were making on the search stuff was the dinner we had with petraeus uh he was then he then pinned our son when he went at the marine corps in 2009 so anyway i go way back with with seth so i'm totally biased giving a little money to his campaign he's behind in the polls uh ed markey's 80 years old ed markey has been in congress uh first the house and then he's been in the house and then for the bulk of that time and then the senate for 50 years ed markey what was elected to congress before seth moulton was born now if you think it's great to have it and he's been an undistinguished i think we can say we safely say member of congress for 50 years it's not like there's like ed markey a giant of capitol hill so there we are and um i don't know do democrats want to be in the business of renominating undistinguished 80 year old members of the senators or do they want to have someone in his what mid late 40s who's been he's not a great politician that's why he may not beat markey honestly because he's actually an honest and thoughtful guy and he's not very good at the soundbites and occasionally he says things and doesn't think through that maybe he shouldn't say this on that issue but he's an impressive person he'd be very good for the democratic party to have in the senate i think he'd be good even in the campaign in the sense that massachusetts is going to be democratic either way but it would help with the general sense that the democrats are the party of the future and it's talarico and it's moulton and it's turk and iowa and you know and it's el sayed yeah and and right let's have this some diversity one or two i could i would i wish maybe hadn't been nominated but whatever there there they are and they're and they're it puts the biden thing even more behind them actually which i think is kind of important yeah politically but mostly i think will would be a very good senator and he's behind in the polls so you know like these primary polls are difficult obviously stevens is behind by whatever 13 15 and came within one or two so i i don't rule out moulton winning his campaign has all kinds of reasons you'll be abused by this as a former campaign person they're they're friends of mine so i i'm not criticizing them but they're you know our door knocking is going very well and we're hearing really good the ground game is really excellent and i don't know i've been in too many campaigns where the polls were bad the ground game was good and the polls are right but it could matter you know a reasonably low turnout september 1st primary if the moulton voters are more energized um that makes a difference so i i don't think it's out of the question that moulton pulls an upset tomorrow night and i think it'd be good for the democratic party if you did and the polls have been bad kind of both directions like for example that john larson who's an older house rep um was running against kind of a molten ish harvard mayor a younger guy and and the polls had that as a coin class and the the younger mayor luke bronin ended up killing him like 20 points or something and then you obviously on the other side you've seen uh you know differences in the in the michigan race so i will we'll see uh how the polls turn out my point about this i don't i have the benefit of not knowing either i mean i've talked to seth a couple of times but i don't really you know have a personal bias in this race i don't have anything particularly against ed markey but like he's 80 years old and and he's going to be 86 at the end of his term people might think oh it's massachusetts it's safe whatever it's like scott brown won a massachusetts special election that cost the democrats like the public option in obamacare i mean literally i got if you care about that like the fact that like they had to have a special election and then scott brown won that surprising special election and that meant that joe lieberman or you know was the was the vote then in the senate it took the public option out of obamacare that results by itself in this day and age it could be some way worse than that right like a republican could win a massachusetts governor republican has been massachusetts governor like two minutes ago charlie baker and so you know you have a 85 year old guy in there and whatever it is 20 20 30 like in that midterm you know anything can happen and it's kind of and it's also just kind of like what who is is he really the senate you know what i mean like his staff isn't really is driving this and i don't want to vote for ed markey's staff i don't know what his chief of staff is going to be in five years so anyway i just think it's a practical matter like the democrats turning the page i'm less reticent than you on the else i had thing which is fine but like i think to your point is like having turek and abdul and moulton and pappas in new hampshire and talarico and ang like that is a younger like that is a younger person and i think it's a younger person and i think it's a younger person i think it's a younger person and i think it's a younger person and i think it's a younger person crop that is diverse both demographically but also ideologically i think it's better for the party, and I'd be for Seth tomorrow. So that's my take on that. Get ahead by stocking up on all your favorite cough and cold essentials now through September 29th. Shop in-store and online to save on products like Allegra tablets, Halls Drops, Mucinex Kickstart, Zyrtec Allergy Relief Tablets, Tylenol Liquid Gels, One A Day Men's Health, and Vicks Dayquil and Nyquil Combo Packs. Offer ends September 29th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. There are hundreds of hotel, resort pools, spas, and private beaches that you can be enjoying today without spending the night. I booked a one-day pass. I was at the Four Seasons Hotel in Spa, Nashville. It's a great deal. I want to close with your newsletter this morning. You refereed the cabinet rankings that me and Sam did last week. And just to kind of remind everybody before we get to Bill's grade, where Sam and I landed, I feel pretty strongly about my position, but I'm open to feedback. And here it is. My ranking was worst Marco, second worst Hegseth, third worst Blanche, fourth worst Nutlick, fifth worst RFK Jr. Sam's list was Hegseth 1, RFK 2, Markwayne Mullen 3, Duffy 4, Blanche 5. You wrote this morning for the newsletter that we were both wrong. Tell us about that. I mean, you were mostly right, of course. I just slightly adjusted it. You know, they asked me, so many people, it was a wonderful show. You and people should go back and look at you and Sam. It's very well. It's amusing, but actually interesting in terms of your analysis for these different cabinet secretaries. And you're both slightly joking around. So I think Sam is just, Sean Duffy had been such a jackass in the last couple of weeks. Yeah, my Nutlick pick was what might have been related to me wanting to say. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't that they're literally as dangerous as these people running these massive, important national security agencies. But I take that point. So I was being a little, it was a little bit of a cheap shot for me to just kind of waft it and say, you know, let me be serious. But no, so mine was Hegseth, worst. So I think they were pretty much in agreement, right? Sam had Hegseth worst and you had Hegseth second. The second worst was you wanted to make the point, which I think is a good point to make about Ruby. We're going to come back to Marco. So do the rest of it. I want to end by arguing over that. So Mullen second because of the atrocities of DHS. And I just talked to Jim Swift yesterday about what he'd seen in Springfield. Blanche third, obviously DOJ, terrible what's happening there. RFK Jr., again, doesn't need much explanation. And who did I have as fifth? Rubio. I had Rubio as a fifth as a concession to your point that he's gotten a bit of a free ride. So do your Marco thing if you want to. Yeah, I take your point on Mullen. I really should have had him fourth and not Lutnick. But, you know, sometimes the content requires some embellishments. The mailbag, if you guys missed the Sam Stein episode last week, I know a lot of people are on vacation. You're skipping certain episodes. But like the mailbag at the end is really funny. And it's worth hearing about Sam's morning routine and some of the marital issues I might have created for him. But on the matter of Rubio, I received this text this morning from our friend Stan Voyger. Bill, we both received this text, actually. Bill, Tim is obviously right. Rubio is the worst member of the cabinet. And he didn't even touch on his central role in immigration policy. And thank you, Stan. I wanted to have this opportunity to revise and extend my remarks because I'm ranting about how terrible Rubio has been as a diplomat, as the head of secretary of state, how terrible he's been as national security advisor. And I did neglect to mention that he was the one that orchestrated Sakat. It was him. And he went down to El Salvador. And obviously, this is true. He's Trump, too. These are all Trump's policies. But Marco was the point man with Bukele on that deal. Marco was the point man on these deportations of people for wrong thoughts, whether that be Ozturk, you know, the op-ed that she had run, Ramesa Ozturk. So he had been the one that was saying that, like, we should be taking away green cards for people if they express their free speech rights in a way that was not fully supportive of Donald Trump and Bibi Netanyahu, which is a total affront to the American experiment. It is not a gimmick that I have. Marco is the worst. I genuinely believe that Marco has been the worst. And I do think that, like, the fact that he gets the presumption of good faith or whatever, unlike some of these other guys, does exacerbate my feelings about it a little bit, I will admit. No, fair enough. That's a good point. This is why the Boat Workers is such a wonderful institution. We have a wide diversity of views. So are you going to move them up the list or are you keeping them at face value? I can move them up a little. I hate to drop any of the others down. They're all so hard. Horrible. Like RFK Jr.'s stuff, I sort of personally follow less. But then I read Jonathan Cohen and I think, oh, my God, he's doing unbelievable damage to actually important things about the health of Americans, you know, and Blanchard Justice. So it's just hard to, it's hard to, Mullen, DHS, it's tough. It's a real competition. It's hard for me to not include Brooke Rollins, you know, Secretary of Agriculture. We have another item there. The defunding of the cyclospora research projects is hindering progress right now, you know, on the effort to promote. Prevent people in the country from having explosive diarrhea. So, like, it's bad all around. So there is, you know, it's a judgment call on how to rank. But I just, I want people to understand the nut lick pick was a bit. The Marco Rubio is the worst cabinet member. I am 100% genuine about 1,000% and if anything, I understated the case. And some of our ex-friends, I'm sure, not that I'm in touch with that many of them anymore, but you and your ex-friends, not that you're in touch with that many of them anymore. They're all there. They're in the, you know, well, look, Rubio, thank you. We can be for him in 2028, but he's, that's really, it's kind of. And everything can move forward again. That's a happy middle ground between accommodating Trump and being sane. And he's been, I mean, in that respect, he's more horrifying. His accommodation and hypocrisy and everything is more, as a personal matter, I would say, is in a funny, in a way, more appalling than Hegseth, which just is what he is, right? I mean, you know. I agree. Hashtag never Rubio. That's where I'm at on this. We'll see how all that shakes out. Bill Kristol, we'll see you next week for a fun retrospective on 1994. I've already, I've started my research a little bit, and I found, I found some fun nuggets about Bill Kristol in 1994, which we can do in addition to 2000. Tim suckers me in by saying, well, have a good talk. I'll talk about 06. You'll talk about 94. We'll really talk about what a wave election is like. We'll help people understand it. It's all going to be, Bill, you said this embarrassing thing on September 13th, 1994. I'm looking forward to it. Really looking forward to it. We're going to do all of that and a couple of teases. Okay, everybody. Thank you so much. We'll be back tomorrow with an old friend of mine. I'm excited to get on the podcast. And so we'll see you all then. Peace. I didn't see you right next to me, but I'm so glad you could make it. With you by my side, I might get back alive from my despair. The Bulwark Daily is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer, Katie Cooper, associate producer, Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Dante DiCicco and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown. Now through September 29, save on all your favorite personal care essentials and earn four times the points. Shop in-store or online for items from your favorite brands like Native, Pantene, Crest, Always, Gillette, Oral-B, and Tampax. And earn four times the points. Points can be redeemed for discounts on future purchases on groceries and gas. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit Albertsons or TomThumb.com for details.