Bill Duke: Predator, Menace II Society & A Lifetime Shaping Black Cinema

this is expeditiously i am tip t i have now the following experience is not a test the conversations and stories expressed on this podcast are meant to be an expression of purpose and truth this show properly entitled expeditiously is a free exchange of ideas and opinions no judgment no preconceived beliefs no fear you're encouraged to share your thoughts and ask any question as long as it's done with respect and through true love and respect for others that we will change the world and speak truth to power one show at a time now without further ado this is expeditiously i'm tip t i have welcome to expeditiously i'm your host tip harris listen today we are honored to welcome a hollywood legend to say the least uh an award-winning actor director and producer whose career spans decades he's acted in over 60 roles directed over 60 films and produced over 10 films but most importantly he's a storyteller with purpose best known for his role in predator he is uh also has a has had best known for his role in predator he has also had pivotal roles in so many of the films that have shaped our culture for generations car wash minister society hoodlum and deep cover to name a few while also having the courage to address the issues of colorism in a documentary called dark girls and its sequel light girls you've seen him in iconic roles working alongside some of the biggest legends in hollywood and behind the camera he's directed powerful groundbreaking projects that earn major recognition including the naacp's image awards the janae dubois lifetime achievement award from the pan-african film and arts festival lifetime achievement tribute from the director's guild of america and multiple other honors and award-winning roles he's also had the honor of celebrating his impact on storytelling and representation he will be receiving his star on the walk of fame this february i thought you i thought he already had it his belief is that we need to tell our stories and that is something that has always resonated with me he's a mentor of mine i'm honored to say uh an open thought leader in the industry he's helped shape powerful stories that open doors challenge perspective and voice to people who weren't always heard he is a champion of the community and a role model for me and others for generations he's been there i want to welcome the incomparable the legendary bill duke to expeditiously god bless you man god bless you man thank you so much for coming here man choosing to sit down honored to be here man it's an honor you and i have known each other uh you you you reached out to me and welcomed me into your home uh and and we were in discussion uh we were discussing working together on a project um do you mind if i if i share what project uh so we were meeting to to discuss working together uh for the red fox project um and and immediately we hit it off uh you just an amazing uh thinker as far as your thoughts about culture our people how we tell our stories how we are presenting our stories and how we are presenting our stories and how we are presenting to others um where did that where did that start for you that perspective well um i very fortunately had a great family and my mother and father you know my my father was from orange virginia my mother from west point mississippi and they saw a lot of things that we can't even imagine um in terms of what they were doing and growing up and um they always passed down to me my sister my sister myself never to give up never to use excuses never to stop that's right and so um those values that they gave us is something i've been hanging on to man those values take they took you a long way man um you've had such an incredible career when you hear you know all the things you've done like in an introduction like how did that make you feel like how would you describe yourself as um a child of god someone who um i don't have blamnesia okay glamnesia blamnesia the black man's amnesia the black man's amnesia forgetting where you came from essentially and i've always learned um this phrase which i hang on to all the time aspire to inspire before you inspire got it so when did you first start acting i first started acting in a junior college in a play called the emperor jones and um was part of a speech and drama class so you started in theater theater okay i started my whole career in theater got it um i was in a broadway play ain't supposed to die a natural death uh directed by the great gilbert moses got it and um just you know learned a lot from stage you know stage is an amazing vehicle in terms of acting got it because you don't get no second takes that's true and you got you on the spot you know follow the fly sink or swim that's right yeah now tell me this what drew you to acting because i'm sure you had many other options of things to do what drew you to acting sydney portia you know and i saw him when i saw him and what he did and the dignity that he had and there was no i mean there was harry belafonte um and others but sydney was just an extremely dignified integrity no nonsense and i i met him one time um i was having lunch at this very fancy restaurant in beverly hills with this beautiful girl i was trying to impress we're taking to this restaurant and mr portier walked in and he said i know you from car wash i said yes sir come here i said well i'm sitting he said come here i said okay so i went and sat at his table i told the young lady i'd be right back and he sat me down and one of the funniest most insightful uh brilliant minds i've ever spoken to and the conversation took around 20 minutes you left your date i went back to her the table when she was gone her loss yeah i mean she didn't see who you were talking to she didn't care did you ever run back into her one time oh yeah how was that interaction well she was like you know you know you forgot me i said no but mr port there she said what and that was it oh i love to hear what happened to her man now what a decision she made that day um now now do you think your your your most memorable character is uh duane abdullah muhammad akbar in car wash um i would like to think so um because that was really me at that time militant i was a very militant angry black man so i fit right into that role and um michael schultz knew it and so it wasn't you know much for me right to do but other roles um you know what was it as serious as you came off in that film it's still a comedy yes so so working alongside other like you know comedians like richard prye and you know i mean like how how could you deliver comedy while maintaining your your seriousness at the same time well michael schultz is a great director so but um working with richard pryor was incredible he's one of the funniest people but in terms of the craft and when they say action he becomes a professional that you have to live up to his standards right and so he was great to work with man that's amazing just thinking about all y'all on set you know in that moment it did you realize it was history in the making no you didn't you guys didn't know you were making history we just had a good time you know and you know but of all the of all the films i've made mm-hmm the the one film that i'm always reminded of is menace to society yeah man that's what i grew up on i was i was in i was in china i'm walking down the street and these five young Chinese boys. So you be Duke, you be Duke, right? I said, yes. He said, you know you're not F up, right? Man, that is an iconic line. Was that in the script or was that improv? That was in the script. Got it. Okay. And how many scenes was it that you actually had? Was it just that one scene? That was the scene I had, yeah. Yeah, and you basically came and commandeered the movie in one scene, where most people, especially, you know, if you're, I guess, a well-known actor, most people look at an opportunity to do one scene and be like, I'm not doing that little bitty BS. You know what I mean? And you took an opportunity that most people would have passed up and were the most memorable thing in the movie. Thank you. Working with the Hoos brothers is, you know. Yeah. They're the best. I mean, they're brilliant and good people, too. Right on. Now, did you pick wardrobe because, I mean, in Car Wash, did you select the wardrobe or have anything to do with it? Because the Kufi, which may have been one of the earliest times that we had an opportunity to see one in film, you know what I'm saying? Was that your idea? Was that your decision? It was a collaboration between Michael and myself. Okay. Because, you know, the Kufi has got different colors in it. Right. And it stands for, Certain Black Independence. Right. And so we wanted to, like, you know, show that. You work with so many legends. I mean, the list is as long as we have to sit here. Who surprised you the most, like, when working with them? Good or bad? Well, that's a good question, you know. One of the finest actors, he should have gotten more credit for his work as Ivan Dixon, you know, because I'm working with him. It was like you had to come with everything because he brought not a hundred, but a thousand percent. And what did you guys work on together? Oh, well. You know, Ivan Dixon, he was in Car Wash. Okay. What character? He played the boss at the Car Wash. Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. Okay. He was serious. And I was going to, you know, you know, rob the Car Wash and pull the gun on him. And he just walked toward me and said, you got to kill me. Okay, kill me. And that character was a great character. Got it. Now tell me, now we've talked about you as an actor, but what motivated you to move behind the camera as a director? Well, I started out as a stage director. Okay. In theater. In theater. Okay. For years. And Negro Ensemble Company, you know, but I was fascinated by the camera, but it was like a stage director, you have the actors and you have the sets and lights. But when you have lights and cameras and sound and green screen and all kinds of other things, it was intimidating. So I went to the American Film Institute. And AFI is one of the greatest schools. And it was like, you know, I read a book called The Five C's of Cinematography. The Five C's of Cinematography. Of Cinematography. Of Cinematography, okay. And that book changed my life. Because it made you really get into the craft of storytelling and filmmaking. Wow. Not just having a camera and shooting something, but what are you saying with every single angle of the camera? Right. What do you want the actors to give you? Right. So it's like, you know, AFI was incredible. Tell me, as a fan of cinematography, having such an illustrious career, having so much longevity in the field, who are some of the younger, present, like right now, directors of today that impress you, that tell our stories? Well, the Hughes brothers, I still remember them. Right, right. I think Spike is still here. Yep, yep. O.G. Yep. Ava. Oh, Ava DuVernay. Yes. Definitely. A boss. And the list goes on and on and on. Right, right. So those are the people that you, I mean, of course, people would definitely point to Ryan Coogler. Yes. Who just, you know, had amazing success with Sinners. And told one of the most magnificent stories with Black Panther. I think that, why do you think it's so hard for us as a people when we're like some of the most prominent consumers of content and product in the marketplace? Why is it so hard for us to get representation, for us to get our stories told authentically? Um, that's a great question, because, you know, there's two options in terms of film making, you know, in terms of story telling. Okay, what are those two options? Uh, history or his story. Mmm, okay. And so. Yeah. History, speaking the voice from the core of your history, is not always popular. Mmm. Because there's not always dancing and singing and, you know. There are dark spots. Well, you know, it's, I call it edutainment. You know, as a business person, I realize that if someone gives me a million dollars, I have to make them their money back. That's right. So, I have to appeal to the audience that the movie is for, to get the dollars back. Mmm-hmm. But you can also put little nuggets in there to make people feel and think. Right. And so, you gotta balance it out so you make the money. Mmm. But also, you speak your truth. Mmm. Um, what about the determination, because some people refuse to invest in certain stories just because they think they won't work. They don't really have first-hand knowledge that this won't work, but because of most of the powers that be are outside of the culture, and when we present our stories, it's speaking to and from the authentic space in the culture. And since they're not aware of it, most times, that lack of awareness or that lack of belief or that lack of an ability to relate, it leads to our stories not being invested in. I think that has been true in the past, but there has been a paradigm shift with social media. Right. With chat GPT. Okay. With AI. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So, you up on AI? Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. So, you're not, you're not, you're not, you're not, like, rebelling or running from using AI. You wanna embrace it. Well, when it first started out, I was like, "No." But the genie's out of the bottle, ain't going back. That's real. That's real. And so, the thing is, is that you have to embrace it in a way that you can use it in a beneficial way. And not, not every, not everybody does that. Uh-huh. But there, if you, you know how to tell stories. Uh-huh. At the same time entertain people. Right. You can use AI to your benefit. Uh-huh. And for hardly any money at all. Right. I mean, it used to take for my friends, my writers, friends to write a script. Uh-huh. Three months. Right. Now it's 10 minutes. Right. Yeah. And it's a lot of work. Mm. Now you gotta edit it. Yeah. You gotta know exactly how to utilize this tool. That's right. To get the best out of it. That's right. Or to get the most out of it. But the overall tool, 10 minutes. Uh. You know, I learned that your first television acting, excuse me, your first television directing role, all came because of mistaken identity and a mixed up reel. Can you tell us how that came about? What's that, tell me that story. Well, there's two elements to it. It was "Notch Landing." "Notch Landing." Yeah. And I was the first black director. John Knotts Landing. Wow. And that was your first directing gig? My first television directing gig. Okay, gotcha. I drove up to the gate. I rolled down my window, and the security guard said to me, who are you delivering for? I said, what did you say? He said that in your face. Yeah, he said, who are you delivering for? Now, I wanted to say, I'm just about to deliver a can of Whip-Ass to you. But if I had said that, I would have been the angry black man in Hollywood. I never would have worked again. Right. So what I said to him, I'm delivering my talents as the first black director on Knotts Landing. Open the gate. So you, too, had a gate moment. I had a gate moment not too long ago. I had to tell somebody to open the gate. You know what I'm saying? I said it a little differently. I'm sure you did. Mine went viral. Look at me. You got in the gate, and how did you be in it? Yeah. That's what's up. So how was it working, you know, directing? Because now you're telling white people's stories. So how was it directing for, I guess, pop culture and telling stories of, I guess, predominantly white people? Well, you're really telling human stories. Okay. And what is the humanity of the script? I mean, what do you want people to feel? Got it. Yeah, you got to present, you know, the commercial element of it. But I said before, what little nugget, what little nuggets can you put in it and make people feel and think? Right. How long did you go on after that working on Knot Slander? I think I did a couple of different episodes. I think you know the story about how I got that job. Well, tell me now. I want to know exactly how did you find yourself in that position? Well, I was hired through my agent. And I landed the job based upon my AFI film. Mm-hmm. And so the producer of Knot Slander was David Jacobs. And I go into his office. He was shocked. I said, Mr. Jacobs, how are you doing? Oh, how are you? How are you? He said, I said, yeah, I'm here, you know. Thank you very much for having me. He said, OK. He says, well, I'm hiring you based upon your reel of other shows you've directed. Mm-hmm. I said, Mr. Jacobs, this is my first show. He said, what? He said, wait a minute, wait a minute. Goes back into his office. He had mixed my reel up with somebody else's. Well, you don't know who really was, though. No. Ah. It was, this was after my, I think, a couple weeks of pre-production and too late to fire me. Mm. And so I went on to direct it. Wow. So you had already just, you know, showed up, ready for the job. And by the time you were too deep into production, that's when they found out you wasn't the guy they intended to hire. But you were the guy they had. Well, you know, and I also knew, I couldn't be average, so if I had a time schedule, I always came in ahead of time and did it below the budget. Mm, okay. I'll see what happens. So you got all your shots, you got all your scenes done on time. Before time. Before time. And you came in below budget. And saving them money. Got it. That's what enabled me to work. Right. Because saving money, it goes beyond this. Mm-hmm. In those days. That's right. Even these days. Yes. So how do you, just tell me, what are some of your tips and things that you do that save time and money when you're directing on a film and working with actors? Well, the thing is, is that what people don't understand is they think of directors as the person who gives orders and no. A director, a director is a person who gives orders and no. A director is a person who gives orders and no. as a person that has to manage three things time people and money so if you can manage time people and money and save the company money they're in love right early on your color becomes green that's real that's what people care about at the end of the day most times unless they're just blinded by their own ego pride what is it edging God out man that's ego so with you being around so many big stars especially back then when it wasn't a lot of stars that looked like us it wasn't a lot of black stars were there ever egos that came into play while you were working with people not really you know there were some people who were very embracing but some people were intimidated you know well you're not a small dude man laughs you know what I'm saying how tall do you stand 6'5 6'5 and that's 6'5 in the what was it 60s 6'5 in the 60s was a very and you wasn't like a thin guy you was like football player size you know what I'm saying so you walk in looking like George Foreman you know what I'm saying and people you know they respond to that either you know they they they want to learn who you are genuinely or they're intimidated by you and they respond to that intimidation well you know my friend Oba Babatunde and I were working on a TV show and we were on could you say his name again Oba Babatunde Oba Babatunde great actor great director great talent and young black man working on the show and I was like I'm going to be a star in the show and I'm going to be a star in the show and I'm going to be a star in the show and I'm going to be a star in the show directing me in something and he said you got you got your lines down i said yeah yeah i'm ready you ready to go so yeah i got all my lines you know i'm ready ready ready he says you're sure you're ready check out my lines he said that's step one i said what other step is there he said step two after you have your lines it's it's not about acting it's about becoming he says so what you gotta do is to fall into darkness backward and whatever comes up out of you is the character right hmm it takes courage to fall into darkness darkness backward right it's easier just to learn the lines but to trust something that's in you to trust that right that's a whole other that's a whole other situation yeah you have to you have to believe in the story and the story of yourself yeah and understand what this character would do given the present circumstances becoming becoming and the circumstances that will present themselves later in the script that the audience may know so and i'm asking you advice as an actor uh what do you find more important showing the director that you know the lines and doing it straight to page or presenting the the emotion of what this actor uh excuse me of what this character would be uh put in like your interpretation of his circumstance well you know great directors um when they work with actors they're collaborators right so it's not just me i i go to the director and i talk to the director and he and i collaborate and we talk to the writer so it's a collaboration got it it's not just an ego trip of oh i know this and right no i mean what what's going to make this work for all of what you need and we work on making that happen together you know there are some films that you did that have been for lack of better words uh prolific um such as uh hoodlum um such an amazing cast so much talent so much just just legendary skill um when you read the script did you envision the cast members you chose uh because they perfect fits every role has a perfect fit uh as a as a as an actor playing that character well what i did was um um there are actors i wanted to work with and so the major leads i had a lunch with them and we sit down for a couple of hours and separately or together separately okay got it and i sit down and talk to the actor and they tell me their feelings what it was and i tell them what my feelings about it were and so it was a collaboration it's a collaboration directing is it's the wrong word it's a collaboration you know and then when you're working on a movie in the old days we're talking about a crew we're talking about maybe it could be 100 people got it and so everybody's got to be on the same page yeah you know or a lot of money is you know going down the drain uh the studios the networks uh you can be as talented a director as you want to be but if you don't come on time come in on time and on budget right next now the hoodlum is the story of bumpy johnson um prior to reading the script and receiving the script did you did you already have awareness and interest in making a film about bumpy johnson no so you were presented with the opportunity and that's when you kind of dove into it yeah and i and i and i i you know his history and um i think at the same time he was still living at that time was he okay i think so and i i think hoodlum would like to see him in a movie like that i think hoodlum would like to see him in a movie like that i think hoodlum would like to see him in a movie like that maybe seven minutes before the end of day and this was the last scene you know to get all our scenes and everybody around you know the grips and everybody's like oh we're not gonna never do this thing because it was a huge well you had to i think it might have been a crane catching uh the the work truck pulling us unload walk into the apartments follow us to the elevator like a sweeping shot where that couldn't you know what i mean and so everybody's like i would never get that and it was like man you gotta you gotta you gotta rap uh really we gotta we gotta call it a day he's like we're not calling shit cam up and he came to me and uh i believe karma was driving and you know i'm saying i believe true tales in that scene too and um he said all right guys we don't have but one take at this if everybody hit their marks we can get this shot and we can move on and that and so you I was like damn okay no pressure and so he told us what to do but he was very clear with exactly what he wanted from us as far as i deliver exactly man he put us in there and i saw him get that one scene in six minutes and move on you know because he knew what he was looking for he wasn't caught up in all this other stuff that probably ain't gonna make it in the cut anyway he knew exactly what he was looking for i learned a lot on that on that set but hoodlum was that generation's version of the frank lucas yes yes you know um working with great actors is remember i wasn't working with cindy tyson um and the scenes that she was in i never instructed her to do anything you ready miss tyson action cut that was it she came with not a hundred but a thousand percent um would you say that's that's your that was like the most impressive uh performance performance from an actress that you've had a chance to direct um sisley was one worked with lawrence fishburne um fish is a genius um jeff goldblum mm-hmm yeah jeff and a lot of people don't know uh you you you did deep cover um that's the first film that snoop and dre uh actually the first film that hip-hop had the opening that's exactly right the opening uh uh music credits and the ending that was the first thing that snoop and dre did snoop and dre came together you brought snoop and dre together on your movie deep cover mm-hmm so you you you worked with you worked with uh lauren fishburne excuse me you worked with lauren fishburne like many times early on in his career yeah dre and i still talk every week really yeah man dre a real one i just got out i just got off the line with him well i'm gonna keep that to myself you know i'll tell you something else about people don't know i mean he's one of the most generous spirits mm-hmm he does a lot of things quietly and gives and supports all kinds of things right never talks about right now i'm gonna tell you man as far as uh successful guys go uh celebrities uh or billionaires if you will uh dread the one i can call and get him on the phone he's gonna answer the phone every time and if people who i know that ain't got no success to their name and i call them i can't get them on the line you know what i'm saying um now how did that make you feel seeing snoop and dre's success knowing that it started with deep cover it was celebratory in the sense that i'm so glad because i mean the talent they had and have um went far beyond deep cover i mean they just captured a whole generation indeed indeed thanks to you know thanks to an opportunity thanks to a layup you know alley that will it will put up by mr bill duke so thank you for that thank you yeah now i said actress when i mentioned miss cecily tyson because another thing that people may not know is you also directed a very young lauren hill in sister act 2 yes now we all know lauren as you know the miss lauren hill in sister act 2 yes now we all know lauren as you know the the miss lauren hill as the the the incomparable legendary probably the greatest female mc of all times but how is a young lauren hill as an actress the best i mean she not only talented but she was open to any instructions you gave her no fighting it's like she's a collaborator and um a great actress great singer great i mean absolutely i mean she's just born with talent absolutely absolutely do you have any idea or any inclination why she's never chosen to do more film i don't know because i mean being inside how great and how effortless her delivery was and her performance it just seemed like you know a go-to and she kind of just left it all behind and she just left it all behind and she just left it all behind and she just left it all on the floor with that one she just left it all on the floor with that one well i think that when she started having children well i think that when she started having children and family that that became a priority as it should and family that that became a priority as it should be now children and family um uh i think that be now children and family um uh i think that uh one of the things that i i learned is that you you uh one of the things that i i learned is that you you said that you have you ever been married no no said that you have you ever been married no no you ch and that was a conscious decision that you made you ch and that was a conscious decision that you made yes and why and why was that and why was that yes and why was that and why was that what what what made you choose to remain a bachelor all these what what what made you choose to remain a bachelor all these years i'll give you an example okay um if you become successful you hope that people approach you in terms of who you are um if you become successful you hope that people approach you in terms of who you are you hope that people approach you in terms of who you are and not what you can do for them and if you're really successful it's difficult so um i had give you an example i was going with this give you an example i was going with this young lady um for almost a year and whenever i got a role i got i came with director she expected always director she expected always have a role in my film oh she thought have a role in my film oh she thought that you're getting a job man she was that you're getting a job man she was getting a job exactly another form of nepotism that's exactly another form of nepotism that's right right yeah and she felt entitled to that yeah and she felt entitled to that rather than felt rather than felt she had an opportunity to earn yes got it she had an opportunity to earn yes got it so we broke up and so we broke up and i didn't date nobody for a year i didn't date nobody for a year right i just i just couldn't right i just i just couldn't and so one day and so one day um i went to a party um i went to a party and i was sitting at the bar and and i was sitting at the bar and this young lady this young lady comes up to me oh you're bill duke comes up to me oh you're bill duke yeah yeah how are you yeah yeah how are you she said yeah i really love you i said she said yeah i really love you i said no i have questions it's true story no i have questions it's true story i said are you directed i said are you directed she said no i said you want to be a director she said no i said you want to be a director she said you an actress no i'm gonna be an actress no you're a producer she said no she wanted to be a producer she said no it's okay so we hit it off you know we had drinks and stuff and took on a couple of different dates and got along we we you know started relationship three months into the relationship um we're sleeping in the bed together she gets up she says you know kiss me going she's going to work so i left the gift for you under my pillow okay i go to sleep wake up look at the pillow it was a script oh dang i forgot to ask if she was a writer i don't know if she was a writer i don't know if she was a writer i don't know if she was a writer okay so people say why have you never okay so people say why have you never been married been married yeah that's why yeah everybody Everybody wanted something. Everybody wanted something. So you don't feel like, you know, you ever had that one that was with you through thick and thin, regardless, even outside of the opportunities that could come with being with Bill Dukes? Well, you know, if you're in this business and you have a certain amount of fame or whatever, it's not easy. It's not just me. Right. I mean, you. Oh, no, there's a whole generation of men on social media or TikTok and everywhere that just say that they feel like marriage. I think Corey Holcomb, Corey Holcomb, a well-known legendary comedian, he's been quoted many times saying that, you know, marriage is a business. You know, much like I've been quoted saying religion is a business. Like it feels, people feel like it's more of. About paperwork than it is about love. It's more about dividing assets and sharing fortune. And, you know, than it is more about opportunistic spoils than it is about love. Now, what I heard, I don't know if it's true or not, but if you're in a partnership, if you have a relationship with someone, not married, but just a relationship for maybe three or four years. If you break up, they can take. Well, that's in common law states. There are certain states that that's called common law marriage. And yes, that is true. I don't think Georgia is one. Now, how long have you felt like this? I mean, you know, it's hard. Man, it's like, you know. You've never been in love to the point where you felt like you should get married. I have been at that point. But it's. You know, it's it's it's it's not easy. You know, it's like I love great relationships. OK. I love that, you know. Right. And I might. That's the only one. Ask any. Oh, no, no, no. I mean, you probably are the only one from your generation that I've had the pleasure and benefit of speaking to. They shared such a passionate view on this side of the subject. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm enjoying the opportunity speaking with you because, you know, a lot of people blame it on, you know, when you grew up or how old you are. So, yeah. It's, you know, it's good. It's good to hear that. It's kind of. It ain't just about age and where you grew up. It's about a lot of different things, man. So, hey. You know, you're perfect for Atlanta. You know, Atlanta is the perfect place for you. But you grew up. Where did you grow up? A place you never heard of. Oh. Try me. Poughkeepsie, New York. Poughkeepsie. Upstate New York, right between Albany and New York City. Right. I heard it and I don't think I ever been there. You ain't missed nothing. It's a great little town. Is it? But look, let me ask you this. When you were growing up in Poughkeepsie, was the first thought in your mind is, you know, as soon as I get out of school, I'm heading to the city? Not really. I mean, it's that. You know, at that time, I was rebellious. I was an angry young black man, you know, and my family had gone through and I hated white people, hated them. And so I went to Dutchess Community College and, you know, I got a scholarship, four-year scholarship to Boston University. But, and I didn't have the money to pay for a room and board. Got it. So I was going to spend a year or two in Poughkeepsie and working jobs and saving up money to, saving up money for a room and board. Right. So the last day of college, after graduation, I'm walking down the hallway. I'm an angry black man. The president, Dr. Hall, very strict, stern. I'm walking out the door. He says, Duke, Duke. I said, what, Dr. Hall? Come here. Come here. I said, I'm on my way. He says, come here. Come here. I said, okay. So what do you want, Dr. Hall? He said, I hear you got a four-year scholarship to Boston University. I said, yeah. He said, I hear that you don't have the money for a room and board for the four years. See, I'm going to stay in Poughkeepsie and work. He goes into his vest pocket, puts on an envelope, hands it to me. I said, what is this? He said, open it. It was a check that paid for my room and board for four years. Now, I hated white people, right? He was a white man. Right. And I was going to say, I, he said. I believe in you. That confused me. So that's when you, you had, you had like a mixed feelings about white people at this point. Well, it was like, he came from his humanity. Right. It wasn't about color. He believed in me. So that's when you stopped hating white people. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's like, I, they're people. Right. And color is. I'm into quantum physics, you know, I'm deep into quantum physics, you know. Okay. And that's my religion, quantum physics, because we're all subatomic particles. Okay. This is true. This, the floor, we're all subatomic particles. Right. Vibrating at different dimensions. Matter, mass, so on and so forth. And I discovered something that I tell people. And I say, tell them that true wisdom is the realization that when you're wise, you're still dumb. That's right. Because no matter how wise you are, let me ask you a question. How many galaxies are there? I have no idea. How many planets are there? I have no idea. How many stars are there? I couldn't begin to tell you. About the cosmos. Mm-mm. So, you, and I saw this movie, it was a documentary on space exploration. And this whole team was in outer space. And it looked down at all the different planets. Mm-hmm. And it looked at the Earth. Mm-hmm. This big. Mm. So, it documented a team breaking outside of the atmosphere and traveling up into space. Yes. And this is a true documentary that we can validate the authenticity of these images. Yes. Mm. I'm glad you spoke, because I get high and talk about this all the time to people, but I don't really usually have people to talk about it to. Do you believe in the firmament? What does that mean? The firmament. Okay. So, the firmament, which is also in the Bible, and it's somewhat of a hypothesis that, you know, people have been, you know, they've been studying and challenging it for years. But so, the firmament is saying that above the atmosphere in outer space, somewhere up there, there is water. And if you go deep enough into those waters. It will bring you to the top of our space. And it mentions the firmament in the Bible, and, you know, but it hasn't yet been proven. There are people that say that they have, you know, they've dropped through the firmament, but I don't know if it has actually been proven yet. So, it isn't taught necessarily as a scientific fact, but it has been mentioned. It has been studied, and I just wondered what your take on it was. As I said, I'm a believer in quantum physics. And so, quantum physics takes that into account. And, yes, I love brilliant people, I love brilliant minds, et cetera, but there's something so far beyond our intellect. Yeah. I mean. we are. I appreciate us, but we are still students. Absolutely. Yeah. Those of us who know anything know that we know nothing at all. That's right. Yeah. And if you feel like you always have the answer, you'll never find the answer. I like that. That's very true. Yeah. Now, you have a film called Dark Girls that you made about colorism, about beautiful young dark girls who are going through struggles about their self-image and the suffering that comes from it. What led to you making a film like this? Well, my family, a young woman I knew, beautiful, talented, dark, with extremely low self-esteem. Because of the color of her, she was brilliant, but because of the color of her skin, she was never considered beautiful. And she was a beautiful woman. She was never considered smart. She was never considered valuable on any level. But we were friends, and I just saw the pain she was going through. Right. People in those days judged her based upon the color of her skin. Not her personality. Not who she is. Right. But what they assumed she was. They assumed she was based upon the color of her skin. And for everybody watching, what era was this? What year was this? I think this was in the 70s, 80s. Got it. And 90s. Another quick question. This young lady, this beautiful young lady who was dark-complected and didn't think she was beautiful or hadn't been seen as beautiful, that was just here in America. Had she ever traveled? She traveled abroad, places like Africa and other places where people of her complexion were, you know, also celebrated. In those days, darkness was universally condemned as something less because everybody wanted to be white. Those are folks in charge. And during slavery, they had the field Negroes and the house Negroes. Right. And that was strictly about the color of your skin. Light-skinned Negroes were the house Negroes. Dark-skinned Negroes were the field Negroes. Got it. So there were no dark-skinned Negroes in the house. So Nat Turner was light-skinned. I don't know. I don't know how light-skinned he was, but in those days, skin color was a big deal. Got it. High light make light. Am I light-skinned? Compared to me, yeah. But what about compared to somebody lighter than me? Like compared to my brother right there? Uh, house. House? He's talking about my partner, dude. Oh, man. Okay. So me, I would have been in the house, too. House. Okay. Yes. That would have been your first name. That would have been. House. House, nigga Harry. House. House. Field. House. Field. In the middle. He on the porch. He on the porch. He on the porch. Porch? He on the porch. Ah, man. Ah, man. It's so funny hearing you talk, man. Okay. Okay. All right. So after you produced this film, which is an eloquent depiction of colorism, tell me, did this young lady ever get a chance to see it? Yeah, I think she did. And she really thanked me. But I also made a film called "Light Girls." Yes. That was the sequel. I was going to get into that. Because light-skinned women went through a lot, too. Right. I was interviewing this light-skinned young lady, and she said. Okay. So she was in elementary school and high school. Mm-hmm. She couldn't go in the bathroom by herself. Mm-hmm. Because the dark-skinned girls would come in the bathroom and pull her hair out. Mm. Because her hair was straight. Right. They thought she was trying to be superior. Yeah. So she had to go to the bathroom someplace else. Now, so it seems as though that hate is just passed down. It seems as though instead of being the change that we would want to see, the hate that's passed down to dark-skinned people is then passed down to light-skinned people. And when light-skinned people can see where they have an opportunity to hate on somebody because of the color of their skin, they do the same thing and fight versus. So it's really like just a huge cycle of hate. I don't think anybody of merit is judging people based on just the color of their skin. Well, it's basically fundamentally ignorance. Mm. Indeed. I mean. So let's get back to the house nigga thing. So you're just telling me I just got to be in the house. Like, what if I done did some. To piss the master off, then he'd punish me by putting me back in the field, wouldn't he? That'd be your first name, Phil. Okay. So at some point, your character does come into play. Because if you have been, I guess, appointed the position of a house nigga, but you don't behave like a house nigga, eventually they're going to put you where you belong. You have to be obedient. Yeah. And understand your place. Mm-hmm. Masa's always going to be Masa. Mm-hmm. And as long as you understand that, you will be okay. And anybody who refused to abide by those indoctrinated rules can't stay in the house. It's called lynchings. Yeah, see, I forgot about that part. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah, you got me. That's checkmate. So the young girl whose story led to you creating your sequel, Light Girls, did she get a chance to see the film? Yes. Mm. Was there any time when you doubted that you belonged in the film industry? Well, rejection's painful. It is. And so, you know, I always had a difficult time dancing and singing. Mm. And so, when I was expected, I had a successful movie. Mm-hmm. And it went very well. Mm-hmm. And I was in the studio. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How long did it take you to learn that? Can you think of a project where you had to do that more than you, more than others? Well, when I worked on projects, no matter how successful I was, I was always expected to recognize and celebrate the fact that I got the job, not based upon my talent, but the fact that I just got the job because they could have given it to somebody else. And you did a dance. Yeah. So, you know, we talked about, you know, a lot of the films that I recall. And you've mentioned your love for quantum physics. Is that the reason you tapped into what I would consider one of the first sci-fi films in Predator? At that time, I wasn't into quantum physics at that time. You wasn't? No. What led to you deciding to do that role? Arnold. You know, and. So, you and Arnold were partners? Hmm? You and Arnold Schwarzenegger were partners. Y'all were homeboys. No. It's just that working on Commando and working on other things with him, I left the audition. He said, hey, I got this film I want you to do with me. And that was a privilege. You were in Commando. I forgot all about that. Yeah. How many films did you and Arnold do together? Two. Two. Just those two? Commando and Predator. Got it. Okay. When you read the script, what did you think initially about Predator? I loved the role because it. the character had dignity. Right. He was a soldier with a platoon of soldiers that were all colors and all ethnicities. They fought what they thought was a common enemy. Mm-hmm. But when they found out that that enemy was the Predator, Mm-hmm. they realized that they were all one entity that had to come together and survive. Mm-hmm. And there's something about that that I'm all into our commonality. I know that I believe in racial pride and dignity, but I've always been into. I love me a lot, not early in my life, but later on, you know. You know, I was asked to go to this event with the royal family. Mm. In England. I wasn't. They came to the U.S. Okay, got it. But it was the royal family from England. Yes. The prince, the queen, so on and so forth. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I was told that, you know, as the party progressed, you know, you're expected to go up and kiss the rings. Mm. Bow down. Mm. And I told my friend that invited me, with all due respect, I can't do that. Mm. Mm. And I said, he said, why? He had to ask why? Yeah. Yeah, he asked why. Was this a black guy or a white guy? White guy. White guy, got it. Not that it matters, I'm just interested. Yeah. I told him, because of toilet paper, he said, what does that mean? That's what I'm thinking. I said, well, when I go to the bathroom and do number two and wipe my boot and sniff it, it stinks. When the queen goes to the bathroom and wipes her booty, and sniffs it, it stinks. If her don't stink, I'll bow down to her. Amen. Did you say this? I'm sorry. Did you say this to the queen? No, I said it to the queen. I said it to him. You said it to him. To him. Did he tell the queen that? He probably did. I don't know if he did. So, all right, so you left the party. I just roamed around and I left pretty quickly, but I mean, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. I appreciate the inheritance of, you know, the dignity of passing royalty down, but I don't see royalty as anything special for me. Right. Whether it's the queen, king, or the president. Right. They all bleed red blood. If they don't stink when they do number two, I'm going to die. I'm like, bow down. What if they vegan? Just joking. I'm vegan three times a week. Okay, got you. And guess what? It still stinks. It still stinks. Okay. I wish it was different. But it still stinks. I mean, you know, there's a lot to be said and there's a lot to be said about it. But, you know, we should bow for nothing but the creator. Always. Yeah. We should only, you know, we should only bow to the creator. That's a high form of idolatry by placing any idol, you know, above you as human. Never. Yeah, that's the, that is, that's the, that is for God and God alone. I agree with that. So, would you accept a role? Would you think about, like, acting now, still? Yeah, I just did a couple of different roles. I'm still acting. And I'm getting made, polished to direct a couple of things. Okay. How do you go into, how do you go into selecting whether a role is right for you or not? Well, the, the writing of the character, if I can relate, to it, in some way, yes. Got it. So, you, you're not opposed to doing, like, dark characters, like a villain, or, and you, you could play anything across the board. As long as you show the humanity of the villain. Mm-hmm. As long as I can show it, that person's humanity. Okay. I'll play a villain. Got it. But not just a villain that has no, nothing. Not a villain without a backstory. Not a villain without some kind of endearing quality. Humanity. A redemptive quality. Humanity. Got it. Got it. Now, when we talked about Predator, I, I, I, I forgot to mention how many black actors there were in a action film of that magnitude. That wasn't something that was, you know, that wasn't just being done all the time in that era. How was that? It was incredible. Carl Weathers was a genius. Yeah. Right on. Brilliant, you know. So. How was Schwarzenegger going to work with you? Incredible. But we had to become a brotherhood brotherhood. Mm-hmm. Because we were in the jungles of Puerto Vallarta. Oh, so, Puerto Vallarta. The jungle. The jungle of Puerto Vallarta. And, and, um, what brought us together, I'll give you an example, was, um, the first week we were there, around the catering tent there was netting. Uh, but every time we got our food, There were bugs in the food. He told the cook, take this junk back, it's got bugs, we ain't eating this crap. And he said, guys, I'm not putting bugs in the food, we in the jungle. By the second day, it was called protein. Because there was nothing else to eat. That's how you eat or not. So that was the brotherhood. And being in those conditions, you know, you know, the predator that you saw was not the original predator. Did you know that? I did not. The original predator was this smaller beast that they, in this uniform like a predator, that on the wires, they flew through trees and he had lasers, he could kill you with the lasers. And so, because it was over 100 and some degrees in the jungle, with all that altitude, and he was in his outfit on that actor passed out four times from dehydration. Right. So the fourth time he passed out, the producer goes over to him and says, look, man, you passed out four times. Every time you pass out, it cost me money. Don't pass out again. The guy says, I'm not passing out on purpose, I'm dehydrating. He said, don't pass out again. Uh-huh. Two weeks went by, he passed out again. The producer goes over to him and says, you're fired. Damn. That actor was Jean-Claude Van Damme. Mm. The first film he'd ever done. Damn. So Jean-Claude Van Damme's first film was The Predator, but he couldn't keep from passing out. That's right. Well, damn. So who did they replace him with? This guy that was a dancer, almost seven feet, who was, I forgot what he did on the set, but they changed the whole thing. How did he keep from passing out? Water, water, water. It paid so much attention to him. Got it. Yeah. That was something else. That was something else, man. And just given how much technology has progressed from then to now, you know, it just seemed like, you know, just the greatest effects that the industry had to offer at the time. Yes. I can only imagine what it'd be like making a movie like that now. Whole different deal. Yeah. Major paradigm shift, you know? Right on. Now, you're a mentor. You're a mentor to a lot of actors, actresses, and directors in the business. When you mentor, including myself, when you mentor young actors, actresses, and directors and producers, what's one piece of advice you always give them? Learn the craft. If you're a director, you're going to tell the story. The story has to have a beginning, middle, and end. Mm. And? You have to put something in there that makes people feel and think. Mm-hmm. If you're an actor, you're not acting. You're becoming. Mm. You've got to fall into the darkness backwards. Mm. And that's what I teach, you know, that it's not about your ego. It's not about this. It's about you becoming that. Now. Um, for one, that's phenomenal advice. And, you know, I appreciate you sharing it with me, as you have already, and sharing it with the rest of the world. Um, what people may not know is that you are getting a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Man, can you share what that means to you? It's humbling. Mm. Because, um, when they announced it, I was in shock. Mm. Um, and, um, I never expected that to happen to me. Why not? I mean, first of all, how many black people to have a star? Mm. Number two, I mean, I did my work based on wanting to be the best at what I did, but I never expected an award of any kind. Right. So when I heard about that, it was humbling, and gratitude, and really important. Well, I'm proud to say, man, that, uh, uh, that I have even been able to share the relationship that we've had. Um, and I think that it's about time that you were acknowledged and celebrated. Thank you. Because your contribution to, um, the generation, to the culture, to, to cinema, theater. Um, and, and just telling our stories with an authentic voice, with a genuine intention to teach and guide, you know, that's, that's more than anybody could ask of anyone in your position. So I appreciate that. Um, could you tell us what has changed most about Hollywood since you started? Um. Mm. A few things. Hollywood is no longer Hollywood. Mm. The business has moved out of Hollywood. Mm. And it's going international, and a lot of it's here. Right. That's true. Uh, so, number two, um, chat GBT, and, you know, I mean, A.I. has, you know, there are people making movies that are making a million dollars. They put them online. They made the movie for maybe $10,000. Mm. So technology, you think, has changed Hollywood? Technology is, um, you know, if you ever get a chance to see this video on, um, YouTube or this. Okay. It's a true story about this engineer is creating this robot, right? And he's screwing these things into the robot, and the robot looks at him and says, thank you, but you know I'm smarter than you. Mm. Wow. So, my final question, with being in the game as long as you have, uh, an illustrious career that spans decades, tell me about the transition from film studios, theaters, and networks to streamers and the internet. How's that transition been? Mm. I mean, I think it's been a long time. I think it's been a long time. in a test he gives it to AI and chat and GPT and it answers all the questions in the test and he don't have to work on he don't have to study the past and he's never been taught cursive writing he cannot sign his own name because he all he has to do is this right and one day his brother showed him a clock he said what is that what you mean like a clock to tell time like with the hour minute second hand yeah got it so he didn't know how to tell time because digitally it's it's numbers right you don't have to know how to tell time like we in the past have right and he cannot sign his own name cursive writing is nothing he ever learned got it well hopefully they'll come up with something you know something else that he can do you know because I think with technology you know you have to for everything they don't know there are many more things that they learn in exchange so hopefully it'll balance out in this phase I hope so you know I saw some Chinese things in terms of how they use TikTok and AI etc schools and stuff right they are so far advanced beyond us yeah I hear that often and they didn't they didn't like stop learning how to write their traditional you know script of text and language and numbers and so on and so forth they they have done learned to do that and more so you think it's an American thing technology has kind of replaced certain skills and assets for Americans as I told you this guy on YouTube creating this robot said a robot says to me no I'm smarter than you and the other thing that scared me you can go on YouTube and look at it this woman married a hologram a woman married a hologram she married a hologram oh and it don't talk back how much time you spend on YouTube I do a lot of research okay so I want I just try to keep up with things right on it's impressive that you spend this much time surfing the net I would imagine you'd have been watching South of the Sun or something you know what I'm saying I'd imagine you know you want to be watching Gone with the Wind you know what I'm saying I got grandkids right on right on so I they speak a whole different language got it got it well I appreciate your time God bless you brother thank you so much and I also appreciate I appreciate your legacy thank you and here at Expedition Slip we have a a segment called The Word of the Day now The Word of the Day is usually a word that describes the conversation or describes the guest of the episode so today on Expedition Slip the word of the day is venerated venerated it means regarded with great respect and you sir are venerated by mine and all of the people here at Expedition Slip we appreciate you Mr. Bill God bless you brother thanks for having me this has been Expedition Slip I appreciate it so much God bless you God bless you and thank you likewise I'll see you next time.