Biggest Observations from the FIBA World Cup

[MUSIC] Welcome to the Ringer WNBA show. I'm Seret Sohi and I'm so excited today because I'm joined by Jackie Powell. Who many of you love because she's so smart, she's so thoughtful, she's empathetic, she is sharp, and I think she rolls with the punches that I throw at her, which I really appreciate. She is a great reporter. She covers the New York Liberty for the 10. She's a WNBA contributor at NBC Sports. >> Honestly, I feel like, sorry to interrupt. >> The nine, oh my God, not the 10, that's my God. >> Not the 10, so good. Yeah, the nine after Title IX, which is something that anybody who's covering women's sports should know. I don't know why that happened. I think I'm just not good with my Roman numerals to be honest. Jackie, welcome to the show, though. How are you? >> I am well, Seret. Thank you for having me. I must say, this fever break has been quite nice. I took maybe the first weekend ever since March, so that was CBA time to not work, which was really great. So I'm feeling a little bit refreshed. >> Nice, I'd love to hear that. >> I love to hear that. >> You also, I mean, we've talked about the simultaneous feeling of pressure and worry that comes with loving the league and wanting to cover it well, but then there's also so much stuff coming at you. I would love to say the same, but then Kathy Anglebert decided that she was going to retire the day that the FIBA tournament started. We'll talk about that a little bit later. I do want to talk about FIBA first, but before we get into any of that, Jackie, since the last time you were on this show, you have since become the subject of two viral WNBA videos. The first one was your interview with Lauren Betts, where you referenced the young hose, and I think she just appreciated your delivery. And then I think John Colt Jones also appreciated your delivery on a question. And actually, like, has been listening to your questions for so long that she was able to imitate you back to yourself. I thought it was really funny, because Jackie, I feel like you were never trying to make yourself part of the story, but it seems like the story just can't resist you. Which is sort of wild. I mean, you're right. I have covered John Colt for a long time now, even when she was on the Connecticut Sun. I'll never forget. I wrote this story about mental health from the W. And this was sort of right around that pandemic time when athletes and mental health became just this huge conversation that we were all engaged in. And John Colt was really, I guess, generous when it came to her time, because we had this long interview that we did together at WNBA All Star. I want to say in, I think this, yeah, it was 2021, because it was an Olympic here. And we talked for maybe half an hour about some pretty vulnerable things, like mental health, and how she deals with anxiety and depression. And so maybe that was it with her. But with Lauren Betz, I mean, I do not know Lauren Betz that well, but to set the scene for people, for folks who I'm sure watched this clip, the interview that I did with her was in, it was at the Weston Hotel right near Grand Central Station in New York City. And so I get there, and I'm put into this hotel room, the lighting is horrible. I have barely any time to sort of get it into shape. And I'm just, I'm like moving tables, moving chairs, trying to fix things, and then all the sudden she comes in and I have no more time left. And I'm like, yeah, okay, we're just going to roll with the punches here. And it ended up creating some sort of magic that I could have never expected. That's the beauty of the theater. They put you, like, this all put you in a position where you had to improvise. Basically, I did not know you had a theater background. Oh, yes. I was very much so a theater kid in high school. I, I mean, even before high school too, when I was in elementary school, in middle school, I took theater classes when I was like five years old. It's always, it's, it's been a thing in my life. Nice. That's great. What was your, like, what was your favorite role? Oh, I have to. Okay. I think one has to be in the musical by by birdie. I played May Peterson, the mother of Albert Peterson. If people know the movie with Anne Margaret and Paul Lind, I, I played the woman in the fur, or I played the woman in the, the fur coat and the squeaky shoes. So that's one role. I mostly did these like comic relief character roles. So then the other one was in Fiddler on the roof. And I played Yenta the matchmaker. And that was also a lot of fun. I did some method acting. I would like hunch over like I was an old lady during rehearsals. People. People would come up. I'm like, Jackie, you're, how are you so tall? Yeah. That's good. I only remember it. So I never watched by by birdie, but I do remember it being referenced in Mad Men at the, the Anne Margaret scene at the end. I think of the movie where I think she's singing the song. And birdie is also Don Draper's nickname for his wife, Betty Draper. Also in one of the best scenes in the show actually shoots at some birds to just take back assemblance of power, but it's also a metaphor for her having to kill a part of herself to be a 1960s housewife. Anyways, let's talk Fiba. So we are really close to the quarterfinals. By the time most people listen to this podcast, the quarterfinals will be decided. I think Team USA has been fascinating so far. They are going through a transition or an airy phase. They've had some bumps and bruises. They're starting to find a semblance of an identity. France is at their heels. And then there are also some other teams that I just find really fun. I love this time of year because Team USA is who we're going to argue about who's starting, who's finishing is Carol Lawson playing the right line-ups. Should we go vets, young players. What is this team supposed to be? Who's the odd woman out? Who's becoming friends, all of that stuff. But I also feel like the tournament itself is a really fun entry point into how the rest of the world is approaching women's basketball and the different styles and the philosophies and with how they approach things. So it's just really fun. It's not on that FIFA world cup level because it's not like the whole world is watching it and it's like you and we're all sort of like basking in this moment. But it's given me a sort of chaser or a little bit of like a, it's almost like an aftershock of that moment. So it's been really fun. But I figured we would start with Team USA and just kind of like, I'll just throw my, my biggest observation so far at you and we can just go from there. How does that sound? Sounds good. Okay, so let's start with Team USA's identity. They're in a transitory phase, right? Like this is a team that for a long time was really defined by its postplay and its bigs. In the same way that, you know, the WNBA was for a long time, we found out very shortly before the tournament started the Asia Wilson who was vital for them in the Paris Olympics is not going to be playing. She's dealing with the back injury and also if you look back at 2024, it's pretty easy to tell that the ACEs and the amount of energy that they had to expend at the Olympics, you know, kind of had an impact on their ability to try to repeat as champions and that's something that they're going for again this year. So you can understand why she's not there. However, it does, they, they, they, they entered the tournament feeling like a team that was ready that was preparing to run its offense through Asia Wilson and then no longer had Asia Wilson. Carol Lawson has really leaned on the older players, the Vets. Some of them have been great and some of them have not. I think against Italy is really when the rubber hit the road and it was a bit of a wake-up call for this team. They were held to 55 points, which is I think the first time at a very long time that that's happened. Four team USA, it was kind of the blueprint for how you would beat this team. You would, you know, slow them down, want to make them play a half court game and see if you can get them to get away from the passing and the creativity that allows them all to play together. Italy really bogged them down and I think that what I was feeling going into the fourth quarter was everyone's being a little too nice. Nobody really wants to take the bull, bull by the horns right now. and say, this is my team. There was a very clear hierarchy when Asia Wilson was around. She's the best player in the world. She's maybe the best player of all time. Nobody's gonna be bothered by the idea or think that anybody else could be bothered by the idea of her being the head honjo or the alpha. With the Americans in the game against Italy, I felt a simultaneous selfishness that was really coming out of the fact that they weren't executing their offense, but also a self-consciousness about that selfishness. Any of the players who had the ball one-on-one didn't seem to want to have the ball one-on-one. Until Jackie Young in the fourth quarter, she was kind of the only one who really was like, "Okay, I guess it's going to be me." And then she starts snaking these picking rules. She starts getting off her mid-range game, getting off that mid-post game, makes a great pass to Brianna Stewart for her only made shot at the game, I believe, but also one of the most important shots in that game. And you also got a Chelsea grade dagger. And there is, well, so they started to find it a little bit, but I did come away a little bit concerned. And they improved against check. Brianna Stewart had a fantastic game, which we'll talk about, and we'll talk about some of the other things that we really liked, but I don't think that counts as a genuine test because I don't think that you really answer the questions about who you are and what the hierarchy is until someone actually pushes you into a position where you have to. The Americans will play Hungary on Thursday, and I think Hungary's a really interesting, not a full test for them, but I think they can do some similar things to what Italy does. They really like to play in the half-court. They have Dorka U-Haas, and they also have Takush Keesh, and they have Lilick, who are three bigs that got 50 of Hungary's 84 points against Japan today. We'll also talk about a little bit later. They can beat you in the post. They've seen the USA team. They have some vulnerabilities in the post. Italy of Austin is really their only true center. And they like to play some pick and roll. They like to slay you down. They're gonna challenge the guards to play some defense. I think more than anything else, I think if they can execute offensively, they're not gonna get, then if the Americans can't just run their transition game, then I think it becomes the same question of like, okay, you're running your half-court offense, and how well are you executing it? Chemistry is obviously a fact there. We talked about it a little before the show. I think it's very, very strange, and I think it's a really unique predicament for the American women who play in the WNBA during the summer to go from wanting to take each other's heads off, and then having to be teammates, and then they're gonna go back and play-offs and have to take each other's heads off again. I think it's just like for the men, it's like summer vacation when they play together for the World Cup and the Olympics for the women. They have to go to completely different psychological modes and they haven't had a lot of experience playing together. In fact, I've been critical of Team USA and their ability to, and they kind of don't really want to recruit players that haven't been part of the program, haven't been part of the camps and stuff like that. I think that's part of the reason Olivia Miles isn't on this roster, it's part of the reason that Caitlin Clark wasn't on the 2024 roster, but then you also look at the lack of chemistry, and you're like, you know what? That actually makes perfect sense because when they run their half-court offense, there's even a timeout where Carol Austin is like, what are we doing? Let's run our motion offense, stop just trying to penetrate one-on-one, get a stop, run. But I have questions. I have questions, and I've been talking for a while, so I'll let you go. So this obviously was going to be difficult, and I think you really pointed this out when you said that, okay, Asia Wilson was supposed to be on this team. Kelsey Plum was supposed to be on this team, and those players in particular have so much Phoeba experience. They know what this is all about. They've been on this type of stage before, and for years it's been Asia and Stewie leading this together. So you sort of have Brianna Stewart sort of, I don't know if I want to say by herself, but she's sort of the one of the most tenured people there. I mean, Chelsea Gray is another one of those folks, but Stewie was very much so used to this being something that she and Asia would lead together, and so then you also have Naphisa Collier, who is in this tournament in part to help her get ready for the WNBA playoffs, which is sort of wild. I still think her defense is really still a work in progress. I mean, I think the physicality she struggled with, yeah. Yep, that too, that too. And obviously her role on the links in some ways has been to be a spacer, which is sort of wild because she's Naphisa Collier. So there's all of that that Team USA is trying to deal with, which it's like, okay, like one of her most talented players is sort of using this to get back into her form. And it's like, okay, yeah, but at the same time Team USA, I mean, they're all about winning. And so it's not about, I mean, they're obviously allowing Naphisa Collier to do this, but I'm sure the fact that she is working her way back that doesn't make it easier for them, it makes it harder. And so that's something that's become clear to me. I also find that the small forward wing position is definitely a question on this team. Obviously, Sonya Citron was thrown in late, and as a result, she is very low on the totem pole. But to be quite honest, when I made some predictions as to who is gonna be on this team, I picked her over the copper. - Me too. - And so I think some of the play that we've seen, it begs the question as to, you know, what does Cleo Copper's future look like on Team USA? And obviously, we know two years ago in Paris, she struggled a lot with her role and then Cheryl Reeves sort of just threw her out there to just go get a bucket because Team USA was being defended really, really tough by Team France. And so I have to be honest about this. I was actually at the theater during the Italy game, I went to see Rocky, the Rocky Horror Show, which was amazing, and this goes along well with the theater background that we discussed previously. So I wasn't seeing, okay, it was Cleo Copper being used in that same way, where you just sort of throw her in there, you say, hey, just get downhill, use your athleticism to make something happen. It's, was that, was she used in that way? Was she not very effective? What did you sort of see from the wing spot in that game? - Well, I think that she was really quick with her shots when she does get them. I don't think that she was necessarily being put in positions where it was like, okay, we're gonna run you off of a cut. If anything, I think the best cutter on this team has been Paige Becker's. I think you make a great point about Sony, right? Like she's been throwing out into the fire and I think that if they had originally picked her, she might have been able to be a little bit more prepared for this at least mentally. She hasn't had a lot of minutes, she's been fine when she's had them. I think she's a little bit more of a plus minus darling than she is somebody who's gonna make a lot of impact on the box score itself. I think that they should probably shelve Kalea Copper until France. The reason that Kalea Copper is on this team is because she's one of the best North South drivers that we have in the WNBA and you need that Zeg if France gets you in a position where you need to go one-on-one. But right now it is, there's a lot of extra passes that could be made that she's not making. And that was a problem with Kalea Copper at the qualifiers too. I don't think that this is necessarily a context in which she thrives. I would love to see Ryan Howard be played ahead of her. I would love to see some Ryan Howard at the four. I think that one of the things that I loved against Hungary that I would love to see more of, or sorry, one of the things that I loved against a check that I would love to see against Hungary is Ryan Howard was being used as a screener for Brianna Stewart to get into the mid post. That was really great. In general, Team USA, I think that, you know, it's hard when you're just trying to establish one post player, and Alia Boston has kind of struggled with that. Feebub is really physical. It's more physical than the WNBAs at times. The reps are going to let more go. I think Alia, when she puts a ball on the floor, I think sometimes she's because she just looks a little overwhelmed and it's a little difficult when you don't have like a double post threat as well. If it was Asia and Alia, I think Alia would be doing a lot better right now. I think that they should, their paint looks, they should be looking, and they were, and I'd like to see this continue. They should be looking at more of these like, mid post get two feet in the paint. Brianna Stewart takes a jumper. The Fesa Collier takes a jumper. Page beckers takes a jumper. That was good to see. But yeah. I would love to see Lescaugh. She has been the least efficient player on this team from a plus, from a plus-minus standpoint. I don't think she's bringing a lot defensively. I think the hope was that she would, but I would, look, I think that she showed in the qualifiers that she doesn't really fit in this new context of what the Americans are doing and what they're gonna grow into. And I think that it's just being born out even more. Ryan is probably your best solution to the wing problem. Right now, and she plays really well with the guards as well, because she can space the floor. You can play her at the floor, even though Carol Lawson has been pretty reticent to play small as well. And that's part of the identity issue with this team. We're gonna have to get to the point where this is a guard, this is a golden generation of guards that we have in the WNBA. And I think the problem against Italy was that the vets weren't playing well, but neither were the guards. Like that would have been a perfect game for somebody to come in and just say like we're taking the torch. But it felt like nobody wanted to. Kaitlyn had her worst game of the tournament. She had her first game in college or the WNBA where she didn't make a field goal. She only had one point. Paige was a little bit better in that game, but more in the sort of like working in the offense way. And ultimately, it just didn't look like she wanted to take the bull by the horns, either. I'm hoping against Hungary that one of these young players, if the veterans do struggle again, just kind of, at a certain point, like, you know, with all the, there's political stuff to all this, with all the different, like, sort of personalities. I think that for this young generation to really take the reins for Team USA, somebody is going to have to say it's going to be me, it's going to be so obvious that it's me that everybody else is just going to have to get in line. And right now, like this actually gets into another, like my second observation, which is that, I don't think anybody on Team USA has really actually differentiated themselves as being like the MVP yet for this team, right? Like, no one's actually been like, you know, Stewie was a fantastic last game, but she's probably too, like, she's not really the MVP because of, you know, the Italy performance, right? Like everyone's kind of had a clunker, everyone's had a really good game, sort of thing, right? Like, Caitlin leads the Americans in minutes and plus-minus, and assist, but her scoring, it's been tough. Like the efficiency's been tough. Stewie is like doing classics, Stewie stuff. Like, when-- - I'll talk to them. - I'll talk to them a little bit more later, right? Paige is tied for number two in points with Stewie. She's doing a lot of great work defensively as well. She's number two in assist. She's been the most efficient player on this team as well. Maybe it's maybe in the context of Phoeba and in the context of a hungry team and potentially a France team that is gonna make you play more of a half-court game. I would-- I am hoping that Paige kind of goes in a similar tear to what she did in the WNBA in July when she was leading the League in fourth quarter points and field goal percentage and mid-range shots. And maybe does something similar to that? I don't know. Who do you see potentially stepping up? - Well, it's interesting that this is the way that you're talking about Team USA because this team, their culture is all about we over me, right? And so they are all about, you know, doing what's best for the team over yourself. And I guess it is up to the coaching staff to define those roles. And we're not inside those practices, we're not inside those huddles. But maybe since this is a completely new, this is a new quad, the coaching staff is sort of trying to define those roles. I mean, we just don't know. And maybe that's part of some of the issues. It's like, okay, who is expected to do X? Who is expected to do Y? And so it's sort of like, okay, you have this really young group. And again, that sort of puts a strain on Team USA because it's like, unless there is clear role definition, you're gonna see some of this stuff. And Sue Bird has said this over and over and over again, but the fact that the Team USA is the hardest team to play for because you have to adapt. Everyone on that team or the majority of the players have to adapt and they're not gonna be playing the same role that they play on their WNBA team. And I'd say the one player who doesn't have to adapt as much as probably Brianna Stewart, the player that typically does not adapt that much was Asia Wilson, when she and Stuie would tag team and they did so beautifully in the 2024 Paris Olympics. And so I think there are just a lot of growing pains that come with, okay, you have a completely new coaching staff. You have a lot of new players. What does the role definition look like, Stuie is the captain. She is the one who people are looking to. I think all of those things are part of just the story that is this Team USA. I also think another one of their strengths is their versatility. Like you were talking about this idea that, ooh, we have Ryan Howard screening for Brianna Stewart. And so this begs the question, because it seems like Carolossan isn't always up for leaning into the positional versatility, even when she makes substitutions. It's like, okay, Jackie Young is the two and Paige Becker's is going to be coming off the bench. Do we replace Jackie Young? She also is the two. Like it doesn't seem like it's as positionless and versatile as we're used to seeing in the WNBA. Yeah, if you even go back to the qualifiers, it was Nate Tibbets when he took over. So Cara could go back and prepare for March madness that the Americans even started to play small at all. And we discovered how great Ryan Howard could be at the fore. So that's definitely something to continue to watch. To your point about the on-selfishness of this team being a strength. I mean, that has to be that you have to come into Team USA and it be an eaglish situation, right? At the same time, I do think that hierarchies naturally develop themselves on the court for any team that has direction and this team had a hierarchy before. Part of the on-selfishness is actually on the part of the rest of the players to be eaglish in 2024 and say, yeah, Asia Wilson is our best player. And Asia Wilson, by the way, had like a third of their points against France last year. Like the cream does have a way of rising and I think that we're in this position right now with seven new players and no Asia way they just don't know yet. And I think, look at Team USA wins. I think it's gonna be because those questions answer themselves naturally. But there's a lot of, there's a lot of, I mean, there's one circumstance. There's one team that's sensing their way in France. I could actually, I don't think they will beat them, but I think this American team is beatable in a way that maybe past American teams haven't been. - Let's talk about mobility, right? We talked about those vulnerabilities, right? The fact that they're so young, the fact that this coaching staff is new. All of those things, you know, the fact that Naphisa Collier is using this as like a rehab tournament. - Yeah, and that was their relationship. Asia was around, right? But she's not. So it's like, they also, that also means they only have one true center. There's so much size in this tournament. Like there are just, there are clear vulnerabilities. I want to talk about, we have to talk about the young intern. The young intern, Lino playing alongside Brianna Stewart, who has become Ms. Bridge between the past and the future for USA, right? Like the experience factor that she brings. Like she's won six gold medals in the last two years, or the last 12 years, rather. And you know, it's like, I think these situations are so difficult because there's so much past success. And I think in a snap, like in a snap pressure, can just rear its head, like the pedigree can turn into pressure, like just really quickly. And I think Stewie, she's one of those players who I think can just remind you that hey, one terrible performance is not a crisis. And I think she came into the game against the Chesh team, really, really wanting to emphasize it. And it reminds me of what she's doing for New York this year. So I go ahead. - I mean, you took the thought right out of my mouth. And I mean, I'd say her role on the New York Liberty, in particular this season, with also a new coaching staff. And a lot of new teammates, Brianna Stewart, has had to become a much more vocal leader, essentially, another coach. And someone who players can all feel comfortable coming to. Someone who will take the initiative to go talk to someone, who she believes she needs to either motivate or communicate better with. This is a very similar Brianna Stewart to the one that I've been seeing in New York all season long. She's been saying things like she's a coach. She's been using this mantra. Like, turn the page. She's been using some, like, Sandy Brondelloisms with, you know, never too high, never too low. Although, I wonder if she stopped saying that, because I don't know, I wrote about that once, and that she is clearly using some of Sandy's strategy in how she's talking to her teammates in New York. The other example was where she. She and John Quill Jones had a conversation back when the Liberty, I think they had, like, a four-game losing streak. This was right before they barely beat the Dallas wings when the wings were on a back-to-back. And she had a chat with John Quill and she said, "Hey, like, we have to be aiming for double doubles in every single game, both of us." And just sort of those accountability checks where it's. It's because Breanna Stewart is who she is, in addition to the fact that she knows how to talk to people. She knows how to demand respect of people. And she's not going. She's going to do the dance where her teammates know that she cares about them, but at the same time, she's not afraid to say the hard things. Yeah. She has this combination of locker room prowess, someone whose first instinct is to take ownership over trying to make excuses correct. And then she also has this versatility where whatever the game is demanding, whatever the coaching staff is asking for, whatever she is demanding out of her teammates, she can actually then go and replicate that. So even against Italy, where she had a really tough game from the field, she leads the Americans in rebounding, which is what they needed. And then she comes into the game against the check and completely sets the tone in every possible way. She's scoring the ball. She's being very aggressive trying to score the ball. I think she kind of recognizes, "Okay, someone is going to have to take the mantle there." Her passing is incredible. The passing out of the double teams was incredible. Points defense. The rotations. Points Stewie, exactly. The inverted pick and rolls. And I think you have these moments with her too, where you're just like, and she's subtle ways of reminding you that she's one of the best basketball players to have ever lived. And I don't think it's something that is always dominating the headline or even dominating the top of your mind when you're thinking about Stewie, because she has this way of dominating without requiring the game to organize itself around her. You don't need to organize around Stewie for her to have her hands in every part of it. And you're like, "Okay, wait." End of the day. There's just someone who was lab-designed to play basketball. She's the seven-foot-wing span. She's one of the most fluid players that we have ever seen play basketball. She has this impossible-to-guard jump shot that she can get off over anybody. She's kind of like the original unicorn, right? Like, talk about all these play. Like, Dom Malonga, "I'll a fan." Like, all these exciting young players that, you know, they have this ability to, you know, play skillball at their size. Like, Stewie is the patron saint of that. And she's also just one of the best competitors that we've ever seen. And then I'm also just thinking, I'm like, like, watching her at the top. I'm like, "Oh, yeah." She's a three-time yearly jab. She's one yearly MVP. Like, there's no bet. Like, she's one four, like, she's one four titles in college. Like, there's no basketball context in which she is not going to find a way to dominate, you know? Or win. I mean, I think for her, it's about winning. It's very, she very much so. She is always chasing winning. That is something that she wants to do. And she's actually spoken about winning in a more altruistic way, which is really interesting. She's talked a lot about, and especially on her podcast with Miles Turner, which is a really good listen. I usually listen to it every week when it comes out. They just finished their first season. But anyway, she's often been talking about how, for her, it's about winning with people who have never won before. And it brings her great joy to see people who have never won on the levels that she has, experience it, and take it in. And that sort of something that she wants to pride herself on giving to as many people that she plays with as possible, in addition to the fact that she just is addicted to winning herself. And she loves it. She's obsessed with winning. And she's having, it's so interesting, because I think that we almost take her for granted, and I think a season like this with a liberty, and also with this team USA transition. She's often part of these dominant teams, right? And I think the weaknesses of the teams around her have actually just like reminded us of all the things that she's great at, in a way. Which I guess is so reliant. I think that's another, that's another show. It's another podcast. And well, yeah, I think I think somewhere around, I don't know, let's say early, early October, you and you and I might be having a long conversation about the numeric liberty. I think so. Yeah, we can pick that in. We can pick that in. Another team USA player I want to briefly touch on before we move on is Angel Reese. Is she actually the best friend of the group? Has page beckers actually stealing angel Reese's friendship, making ability baller. Furthermore, they just like the glue. Are they like the six degrees of separation in the WNBA? Is everyone either friends with one of those two players? She's been a joy. Honestly, like I think I think also in a league where like, we romanticize couples a lot. I think friendship should get a little bit more love. They're fun. They're really fun together. I think. There's a lot of interesting stuff happening with her team USA. Like I think that. She's just been really consistent for a team that's like consistency. I think her and Jackie Young have been two of the only players that have been like really consistent. She's been on a finishing tear since that Miss Layup against Indiana and that's continued in team USA. She's shooting 50 for 57% from the field. She's been really important to their defense and will continue to be like against Hungary. She'll be important. They play Spain France, AWFM, Dominic Malonga, Valerie AE, Meg Gustafson, tons of size. Her ability to pressure on the perimeter as well creates stops so that they can run. I think was huge against against a chess team. She's switchable. She's really. She's incredibly special. She's one of the only players that's been utilized in that way as well. Like I think there's a trust factor there with Carol Lawson where she's like, yeah, we will put you on the guards and then like, you know, you just see how the court like she just brings an energy. I think she brings like exactly what you want from a young player on a team like this. Like just a joy in like the jovial nature. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's just really fun. I think this means a lot to Angelry's. I don't know how much she has spoken about it, but it's. I think it's been one of her dreams to be on this team because it means that she's one of the most respected basketball players in the country. And, you know, I think for her, it's always a bit of a battle between who Angel is and because of who she is off the court and all of her sponsorships and all of her. You know, Monica's or being known as as the Barbie and all of this stuff and a fashion icon, all of these different things she's known for. I think what she rebels in the fact that she can show the world that she just loves this game. And that's also a big important part of her story, not just that she loves this game, but that she is really damn good at it. And has a lot of value. I mean, we talk about her rebounding. We talk about her motor. We talk about her athleticism, which allows her to do what she does defensively. We just spoke about the rebounding. You could argue that's defensively and offensively as well. And I know Katie Barnes wrote a great story about Angel Reese and just sort of her, her knack for the ball and where that came from and why it stands out and how most likely it's a great article. Yeah, she may go down as one of the one of or the greatest rebounder in WNBA history. She already is. I mean, I think these like the long rebounds. I think especially against these teams that take a lot of threes are going to be really important and like watching her. I think it's be fun to watch. We guys like watching the games like. It's like she's it's like a pool. It's like watching like a pool pool will come off of the queue in a way like that's the way she kind of like watches rebounds. I just think she has such a knack for it like she just understands angles better than almost anybody we've ever seen. Gabby William. This is the year of Gabby Williams. She has been the best player in the tournament. So far, she's leading the tournament in points. She's leading it in plus minus. Renial honest is number two, which I think is really romantic. I think that's really cool. I know I just said what I said about the friendships versus the couples, but I think them on the same team together is just really fun. Like, evil French Paisy is great. (laughing) But she's been amazing. Like, she's ahead of this thing. She's shooting incredibly well from three. So is the entire French team. And she hasn't missed a free throw. She's I think she's number one in steals. She's been amazing. And this French team just looks completely motivated as well. - They do, but I want to add a little bit of a caveat here, which is if you take a look at the group in the, the group round here, and you take a look at group B, and then you move and you take a look at the plus minus and you see just the other teams in this group are all in the negatives. They, I think the French might be in the easiest group. And if you take a look, I'm toggling to group C. There you have Belgium and you have Australia to very experienced teams with experienced coaches. Then you move to group D. You have USA. You have Italy, which really proved itself. And you do have China. I mean, and if you take a look at the plus minus again, it's like there's, you know, China's a negative nine. That's the closest to Team USA. And so then you look at group A. I mean, group A is tough because look, you've got Spain and Germany. Those, yeah, they're very much so in the plus. Those are two very competitive teams. I just feel like France's group, I don't think they were challenged enough. So I think that's something to look for. I honestly think the Americans are a pretty weak group though. Like China didn't have Liarou. They had to adjust even faster than the Americans had to adjust to not having Asia Wilson. She was like a leading scorer at the qualifiers. She's a huge part of what they do. And all of a sudden she doesn't have her passport in the mail in time, which is honestly one of the thing that would happen to me. I just feel so bad for her. Honestly, they also look Italy is Italy good or where the American just gets smacked by them. Because Italy was well coached. They're well coached. They're well coached, but so here's the thing. France is the best point differential in this tournament. And it just becomes a question of like, is it their opponents or is it them? I think it's a little bit of both. I think the other two groups are the stronger ones. I don't think France and America, I think they both had a pretty easy path. The Americans made their path look harder than it was. 'Cause like, also like that China team America be and then China that goes and destroys Italy as well. And then you also have, so I go ahead. - Well, I think it's interesting because the weakness of the Chinese team is you, they have so much size, but they're not really as athletic, right? And obviously they're back up center who is 7-3. She, Team USA did a really good job of scouting that Chinese team. I mean, Alia Boston was excellent against the Chinese team. Yes, thank you. And so I think that that was part of it because it's like, okay, Team USA has size as well, but it's more athletic and versatile size. And then against Italy and you can correct me if I'm wrong based on just what I've read, the highlights they've seen. Italy scouted USA so well and was playing really good defense, especially in the spots where they know that the front court players like to get to. - No, they absolutely were. They absolutely were. And I don't want to take anything away, primarily. I think maybe France was supposed to have a little bit of a harder division, but Nigeria ended up not sending a lot of its veterans as well. And some of like the diaspora players, like Illusia Conwell, who I think is going to be huge for the program down the line. After they surprised everybody in 2024 and they beat Greece and made the quarter finals, that was a huge moment for Nigeria. I think people probably expected them to be a little bit better, but I did. I did, yeah. I think it's just a step back to take a step forward. Like they're kind of going with this youth movement right now. And then they didn't have Illugie. Nekka Cheney both wanted to play for Nigeria, but weren't able to, they were never eligible. But now I think this team is going to be able to pull from Nigerian Americans who want to be with the program from the start. So I'm still looking forward to what they can do. And I still think Renau Walkham was a great coach. I think like they're sort of like they have a good identity with like the defensive stops and like try to run in like user athleticism. - The issue with team Nigeria, seemed to like punt this tournament though. Sorry, go ahead. - The issue always with team Nigeria is will they get the proper investment to take the steps that they need to? And that is very much that is more of like a geopolitical type conversation. And because as you said, they are so fun. They have so much potential, but it's to be able to compete, you need to invest not only in your players, but in the places where you train, all of these sorts of things. And that's the thing that I will continue to look at when it comes to Nigeria. I mean, I love their story. I remember covering them right before the 2021 Olympics because they played in some exhibition games in Las Vegas. And then, of course, in 2021, that was when the infamous situation with Liz Cambage happened and Nigeria National Team. I mean, oh my God, that feels like eons ago, Cyril. - I mean, it kind of was. It kind of was, the way time moves now. - To those listeners who know exactly what I'm talking about, you have earned personal brownie points from me. - And if you don't, we're gonna let you Google yourself. All right, let's just get back to France because I think they're a huge story. So Gabby's been the best player. I will concede, yes. I do think that their group stage is probably the weakest. I do still think that the Americans was pretty weak. And I think I'm more impressed with France doing what they were supposed to do. And looking as competitive and versatile as they have. As well, the way that they can beat you in so many different ways. They start at Valerie Aiyi and they bring Dominique Malanga off the bench. Sometimes they put them on the court together and they go super big. Other times they play them with Mary and Bedan and then you have a bunch of floors. Maya, I'm sorry, and they have a bunch of floor spacing around them. And they just have players that are really playing at the peak of their abilities right now. Like, Carla Lay is leading the tournament in three point percentage. Renio Hannes has been incredible. Dominique, Dominique Malanga is leading the tournament in two point percentage. She's the best ring protector at the tournament. You have this combination of great defensive wing talent alongside a great ring protector. And you also have this pick and roll attack that is incredible, especially when they use DOM. Like, when it's DOM setting a pick for Carla or Pauline Aiyi, like the way that those two can get downhill. Or then look at it in her ability to get to the mid range. Marine and her ability to get the three off. I think they can just throw them in. They can attack you in so many different ways and they have so much chemistry. And I think, honestly, the bigger thing for me is like, they have the medal. Like Pauline Aiyi telling Eden Loss friend of the show, hey, we're gonna be team USA this year. They're mad about 2024. And they think that they can actually beat this team and they have a reason to. Because the best player on the court in 2024 is not on the court this year. And this is an American team that, like I said, they're trying to figure out their identity. And they also have, I think one of the biggest advantages for France is the way that Fibre rules favor them. To be able to have Dominique Malanga on your roster in a setting in which there is no defensive three in the key rule, he's insane. (laughing) Like, I just think that's insane. (laughing) but yet on the offensive end. the three seconds rule stands. I'm like, okay. - It does, but they just get their threes off. Like, they play so much pick and roll. They have a lot of movement as well. But your point stands in the sense that there's an offensive three, but there isn't a defensive three. I think that's very strange. - Oh, incredibly. - It's really strange. Honestly, it's just, it really to me is like, okay, the shooting is obviously an aberration. They're shooting like 50% from three. But it's like, can it sustain for a couple more games? Is this a team of destiny sort of thing? With these guys like, is it a moment just gonna meet them? I just wouldn't be surprised if it did. - Yeah, I mean, we're gonna have to see what happens when they are scouted a bit better than they were in the group round. I mean, it's gonna be interesting. I don't think they'll have an issue with China. I think they'll beat China just sort of like the United States did just because again, like there is such a difference in athleticism there. But, you know, or, well, it technically the qualification to the quarterfinals is Puerto Rico versus China. I'm assuming that China's gonna win, but who knows? Puerto Rico could pull off an upset that we do not know. But I think either of those teams, France should be pretty comfortably. And then their next opponent after that will be either Belgium or Germany. And that's when it's gonna get really challenging. Because you're talking about two head coaches in Mike Tibo and Olaf Lang that know this personnel have scouted against this personnel. You know, this is, I mean, Germany, if they upset Belgium, that's the home country you're talking about. So I don't know, I think the semi-finals, that's when it's, we're really gonna see what this French team is made of. - What have you made a Spain so far? - Sort of confused because their first game against Germany, I mean, they really wipe the floor, but then all it took was for their shots not to be going in and they had a lot of problems. So I'm not sure. I think they've been a bit inconsistent. - It might be youth. I think one of the underrated storylines with Spain, which makes them a really fun team to watch if you're in a WNBA fan is that they have two 20 year olds that are doing a lot for them in Ayyana, Martine and Olaf fam. And for the context of a tournament in which youth and inexperience can really hurt you, I think that they are just going to have that sort of swing potential. They're gonna be, like there have been days like they've both had 20 point games. They've both had clunkers, right? Martine, I think it's been a little bit more consistent. She was a Portland fire pick. And I think she's gonna come over this year. I think she frankly wanted to play for Spain and I think she won another year development in Europe. - I mean, next year in 2027. - Yeah, I think she's gonna come over in next year, yeah. - Yep, yep. - She's been shooting the leather off of the ball. Her reads have been really fun. Olaf fam's reads have been really fun. Watching both of their progression from the qualifiers to now is such a testament to their development as well. It's interesting to see Awa do some things as a center as well, like she's usually playing with Domalanga at the four in Seattle and is her preferred position. And you see the moments where she struggles with the physicality, but I also like what I've seen from the rim protection standpoint of it all. And also just her ability to her footwork in the post as well as like some of the passes that she's making out of the post and how quick this Spanish scene plays. It honestly reminds me a little of their FIFA World Cup team. Like there's a young star who is kind of still figuring it out. And ultimately like they win off the backs of the fact that they pass the ball and execute better than anybody else. Now obviously that FIFA team is a lot stronger, but they've got some interesting young players, even Alicia Flores who plays for Washington. She's only 22 years old, so I think they're just really young and ultimately, you know, like Maria Conde is a little older, but she's kind of like a hit or miss. Like if the three spawns, she's even like that with a tempo. Like it kind of just depends. Yeah, they're kind of, they've been like one of the fun sort of like pop in and check in on how the WNBA players are doing team for me. - Yeah, 'cause you've got, I mean, you've got Raquel Carrera who barely plays in New York, who I think has done well. And then you have Megan DeLio. - Yes. - And I made sure to think DeLio. - Yes, yes, yes. I know that's going to take a lot of getting used to, but I think I just bought about it too much. I was like, remember she got married and then. (laughs) - Yeah. But yeah, I mean, that team I think they've got that post death. And I mean, but your point is well taken about how essentially this team sort of goes as their young stars go. And so if Awa Fam and Martine are struggling, then the rest of the team will sort of be struggling a bit off as well. So I'm going to be looking forward to see what they do in the next round, I believe. Oh yeah, they're playing the winner of Italy and Australia, which should be really, really interesting. - Should probably be Australia, right? - I think, I think. - We'll see. - I mean, they rolled them all up for a reason, but I think them versus Australia would be really, really interesting. - Oh, absolutely. - My biggest disappointment so far has been Japan. I was really excited to watch this team. I was really decoro to Naka Pilled. I was ready to call her the Japanese Caitlin Clark. She really struggled from the three-point line. In fairness, Caitlin is struggling from the three-point line too. So maybe I can still use a comparison. This is like the highlight real tournament, like team of the tournament. They play such a fun, up-tempo style of basketball. There's the worst wing team, you know, like I think, if the traps are working and they can run on you and the three-point shots are falling, they are such an interesting team to watch. It's really fun. None of that happened. (laughs) They're gonna be out, and it sucks because I'm very interested in the cultural smorgasbord of FIBA, and they were gonna be my highlight of it. They were gonna be the best part of, like, the Shakutori board. They were, like, the Poshito and the Brie with, like, the Fig Jam, and now they're not there. And I'm sad, like, I'm upset about it. - So then who's gonna take their place? Like, is there, like, an up-and-coming underdog that you're sort of rooting for? - I mean, China's kind of the next fun novelty, right? Like, Jong-Joo, just being, like, seven, three, playing alongside Hanju, as well, is, like, really fun. I also think we should give her a little bit of a break. Like, she's 19. - Yep, she's obviously struggled against the Americans. - Of course. - She is one of the tallest women ever. - Like, ever. And it comes with as much as, like, I think people see someone her height, and they're like, well, basketball should be automatic for her, but she does so much work to push through all of the accompanying pain, especially to her back, that comes with being that height, and she does so much work to try to become a quicker player that can, like, you know, hopefully last in the modern WNBA when she declares for the draft. And, you know, I think, maybe that'll happen, maybe it'll not, but I think that she just, you know, I think with her height, she garners so much attention, and I think that it can be so easy to look at players like that and blame them for not being, like, skilled enough for, like, have the assumption that they're not working hard enough, but it's like, that's it. She's a very unique body type that I think people look at, and they're like, oh my god, this is perfect for basketball. But it's like, she has to work so hard to add the mobility, to add the fluidity and the stamina. And we know she's still struggling with this. It's hard, exactly. It's really hard. And I think we should commend her for doing a good job at, like, trying to transform her body and not be so critical about it. She's only 19. - Yep, exactly, exactly. I started covering Honshu when she was 19 as well. And it was the same conversation that we were having, others were having on a much smaller scale, because 2019, think about the WNBA and Women's Basketball's footprint. It was very different. different than what it is now. But it's hard for these really tall players to be good at everything, like seriously. I mean, it's like, oh my gosh, these really long centers that are, and really tall people, like, you know, they should be great at everything. It's like, you know, it's like, Wembee is Wembee for a reason. That doesn't mean everyone is going to be like Wembee. I mean, Honshu still really struggles defensively, especially in the WNBA. And it's because of issues of mobility. It's because there's a language barrier still. Her English has gotten amazing since 2019. But still, I mean, when you're talking about very complex basketball terminology, it can be hard. It made a completely different language too, right? It's not like learning with a lot of European players. It's like you're still learning the romance languages. It's just different. Also, I think the expectations that get saddled on you, when you're coming from a place like China that is so obsessed with basketball and has the second biggest population in the world is also really difficult as well. Like you don't want to saddle these players with the hopes of an entire country or like the hopes of an American market, hoping that this player will be the vessel that makes China crazy about women's basketball. Like there has just been so much placed on her at this point. And it's just like, let's just pull back a little bit. That's all. All right, let's switch gears here. You texted me after Andrew and I did our emergency podcast on Kathy Engelbert. And look, I will admit, when we had just found out an hour prior to recording that Kathy Engelbert was going to retire and we were smiling year to year, we were thrilled about it. And look, I am somebody who's strong, like empathy for me is learned. And it is something I have to be intentional about, especially when it comes to performance. I am not very good at being empathetic with myself. When I'm struggling with my performance, I'm not very good at being empathetic to other people when they are struggling with their performance. But you just were. You just were. Because I'm trying, because I'm intentional about it. You just were with the young 19-year-olds. So I was, I was, you know what though? I have more empathy for a young 19-year-old who has the hopes of her country on her back. And then I do for a millionaire middle-aged white woman who. She's not a millionaire. She was, she was a CEO of Deloitte. If she's not a millionaire, it's like, that's her prophecy. This is, again, the empathy aspect of it. I would be shocked if she's not a millionaire. I would be utterly shocked if she's not a millionaire. Either way, obviously somebody was very established in real life. This is not how I wanted to start this off, because I can say, I appreciate that you called me out a little bit and you were like, well, we can have a little bit more empathy for the situation. Okay, so you were right. Okay, it does say that her net worth, and this is, again, just Google, that her has an estimated net worth between $5 million and $6 million. But anyway, so you were correct on that, but I also think we can have room for empathy for her, and it's funny. I remember when the Josie and Clara Wu's side divorce was announced. Well, I have, I will connect this, trust me. Okay, I trust you. There, I had heard rumblings months before that they were separated and whatnot, and I think this was actually during some of the, the pre-marathon negotiation stakeouts, where there were maybe a couple of more people waiting at the league office in New York. We were all sitting in that lobby. It wasn't just the Langham 4. There were other people, too. And so we were just sort of talking about, you know, the size and these rumblings about separation and things like that, and I heard it and I was like, oh my gosh, like, I feel for the kids, that's hard. And then someone else said, you know, I don't know, why would you, why would you have empathy for those kids? They're so wealthy, they have it all. And I was just sort of like, well, I mean, money isn't everything. Who knows how they grew up? Who knows how much attention they got from their parents? And I often like to think of, I think it's Robin Roberts who says this. Everyone has something. Everyone has a struggle that they're going through. You may not know it, but everyone does. Everyone has that insecurity that they don't want to talk about. And so that includes Kathy Engelbert, that includes Kathy Engelbert, who was the first in her family to go to college, which is a fact that not many people know about her. Did you know that? I did not know that. There have been many issues with how Kathy and the league have told stories about her and just the league itself. And that fact, I think, is definitely one of them. You know, if she communicated with the players a little bit more and told them what her story was and connected with them and ways like that, I just wonder, would things be different? Yeah, for somebody who has so many siblings and is, you can tell in the story that she did with your colleague, Howard Megdal, at the 9. I think that she would have a lot of points of relation when you think about how they talked to her about like, well, Kathy, like, is it time to let this go? Is it time to give this up, but she put so much into her work that it took until now for her to walk away? I imagine that there are a lot of WNBA players that are not only settled with that responsibility, but also with that desire to continue to go at it and maybe feel isolated and lonely as a result of it as well. Oh, yeah. And she played in college, right? She played fairly high. She played at Muppet. Yes. She played for Muppet McGraw. I think I was actually, when I was doing some prep work for the story of mine that I think we're going to talk about when it comes to potential candidates to replace Kathy. One of the candidates I looked at, she did an interview where she talked about being a corporate athlete and just sort of how people in business are they have a lot in common with athletes and sort of their drive to compete, their drive to achieve. And so I think that really gets into exactly what you're saying. Which candidate was that? It was Kristen Cook, the current executive vice president and chief agency sales and marketing officer at State Farm. And this is one of the candidates that Kathy Engelberg has recommended? I don't have enough sourcing to say that. It's more, this is someone who's coming from my list. And I was given some information on places to look or what types of companies some of these candidates might come from. And so when you think about State Farm, that's a company that has been tied to the NBA and the WNBA for years. That's been a partner of both leagues. And so what you have with Kristen Cook and I realized we're sort of transitioning out of context. We can go back to just talking about Kathy, but because we're referencing as a story that I have up at NBC Sports, which Cyril will attach in the show notes, laying out Kathy's potential replacements. I mean, other writers and outlets have been doing that as well. E.S. P.N. had won, the athletic had won. And so the thing that's interesting about Kristen Cook is she also played, she played for Syracuse when she was in college, and she has relationships with a bunch of WNBA players. She knows she's worked with Caitlin Clark before on those commercials. She's worked with John Quill Jones. She's worked with Kelsey Plum, all of the players that have done some sort of State Farm promotion. They've all crossed paths with Kristen Cook. And so I think it's an interesting idea. idea where it's like, okay, you have someone who is coming from the corporate world, but someone who also has relationships with WNBA players, which might be a really interesting toggle when it comes to thinking about who could replace Kathy Engelbert. But that, that isn't an aside. I didn't know we were jumping right into the candidate list. All right, well, we won't go through all your candidates because we weren't talking a while, but oh, my God. All right. The ones. Who do you want, who do you want to see? If you, if you were Adam Silver, man, if I was Adam Silver. Okay, I, you can pick more than one. You can pick more than one. So I happened to mention earlier in this show, I mentioned Kristen Cook, the executive from State Farm. I think she's a really interesting choice. And that would be someone who would be like a finalist. I also think that some of these folks with institutional knowledge could be finalists as well. And who I mean by that are, we're talking, we're talking Bethany Donovan, who it was really, there was a great story on landscape that was written by Sean Hurd that really went deep into Bethany Donovan and who she is. And there was a quote from Brianna Stewart that really again, we're talking a lot of Stewie this part. But she's important. She's important. And so something Stewie told Sean Hurd was about Bethany Donovan was this quote, she listens and she lets us know what's possible and what's not. Obviously, she's working on the W side, but as a former player, understanding the things that we're wanting and asking for, then being able to communicate that to both sides, she is the bridge between the players and the league. Really interesting quote because technically, we talk about what a commissioner should be and the commissioner works for the owners, right? But a lot of the complaints about Kathy Engelbert has been, you know, forming relationships with players and having better ones with players. And so everyone's talking about, oh my gosh, maybe Nekka Gummikey should be commissioner. Oh, Swin Cash should be commissioner. Well, I don't know if those two former players have enough business experience and have enough institutional experience with having been in these rooms before. But I think Bethany Donovan is someone who has a little bit of both. She can relate to players. She remembers what that was like, yet she's also thinking very in a business mindset. And so that's, that's to me what makes her seem like a really interesting candidate. That ends Cape Article. I remember reading it. It's a little older now. And I do wonder how the last few years have impacted the way that players feel about her. Because I remember there was a time when they felt pretty strongly about her. She's basically been Kathy's number two. She's ahead of, but not really. So can I clarify that? Yeah. So and this, and this is a great transition into talking about how the WNBA still lacks so much infrastructure. Because in, for instance, an ESPN's candidate list, Alexa Philip who wrote about Mark Tatum. And for the actual deputy commissioner of the NBA, but the WNBA doesn't have one. Correct. Correct. And I can tell you all that internally there have been a lot of discussions about, Hey, we need someone who can sort of balance things out. Because what people say about Mark Tatum is he is like relationships are his strength. And it's so interesting because it's like everyone talks about how great Adam Silver is with when it comes to relationships. I don't know if it's actually Adam Silver or if it's because he has the proper amount of staff around him that is able to send fruit basket X over to Candice Parker or fruit basket Y over to Sabrina UNESCO and Caitlin Clark. So having more of a built out commissioner's office is a really interesting concept to consider when thinking about this. And I know Alexa wrote a fantastic piece right around all star where she spoke to many executives around the WNBA. And there was a suggestion about having more of like a liaison figure underneath the commissioner. And if Kathy was going to stay on then to make things improve really have a formal liaison. And the thing is Bethany Donovan has so she has a huge portfolio. And that's not necessarily a good thing because when someone is stretched so thin, the W's infrastructure has grown. It absolutely has because you talk about 12 employees to around a hundred now. But it's still not enough. You still have so many of their staffers doing so many different things that they probably all shouldn't be doing. There should be more people that can take some of this on and make sure that there is delegation. Do you think Bethany is someone who kind of balances the institutional wisdom with having new ideas too? I think some of these people in the league office, frankly, they might be able to get to some of their more visionary ideas if there was more help to take care of the day-to-day stuff. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. That's a huge part of it. I mean, yeah. I mean, and another note about Bethany Donovan is she is very much so the person who was working very hard on the league's initiatives to try to diversify coaching. Bethany Donovan was who helped install this mechanism where you could only have a third assistant coach or a third coach on your bench if that was a former player. Do I think that there needs to be another initiative that forward? Absolutely. And do I think that the NBA needs to be involved in this because essentially the NBA has been sort of setting the pipeline and all of a sudden right around the time when, I don't know, I think it was when the conservatives were attacking DEI. When that was happening, the NBA stopped hiring women and former WNBA players. It was that and you had people from the pipeline jumping ship to the W because the NBA was not going to allow them to advance further. Yeah. That's just why we ended up with Becky Hammond being the ace's coach. Candice Supri used to work for the San Antonio Spurs as well. There's been a number of people who have shifted over. I mean, I also feel like the WNBA could just use its own institutional pipeline as well. Like the NBA has so much energy into developing coaches that the WNBA just doesn't as well. So that's a big part of it. Like, unfortunately, I think now a lot of coaches are in the position of like they want you to have NBA experience. And we're seeing the good and bad of that this season as well. Like we're seeing that, hey, it's nice to bring in an NBA coach. Sometimes they have new ideas. Sometimes those ideas are a little too new when they don't actually apply to the league at hand. And it's good to have people around that actually understand WNBA personnel as well. So there's and just also it's I think at the same time, you can have someone like Natalie Nakase. She's she gets a full what how many years did she spend with Becky three years of learning the league and learning league personnel. And then, you know, she had the the leadership ability and the relationship building ability to really be successful in the WNBA. Problem is I don't know how many male coaches are going to want to go from being an NBA assistant to then being a WNBA assistant so to then hopefully become a WNBA head coach. Like and that's a great question. That's part that's part of the issue there. All right, give me one more. Let's take a look. So one that people might not know about is is a woman, her name is Amy Brooks. And she is another internal person. And she is currently the NBA's president of global business development. And part of the reason why Amy Brooks is really interesting. So again, so Amy Brooks played basketball in college. She went to Stanford and she played on a Stanford team that actually went to the final four. But she has, well, she's been at the NBA for 20 years. And she has served in a bunch of different roles. She's been the director of global marketing partnerships. She's been working on team marketing and business operations. And so she's been working a lot now on the leaning into the international side of professional basketball. And it's like when you think about, I guess, where the WNBA wants to go. And I think Kathy Engelbert has been clear about this. She has been pushing this idea for the WNBA to continue to expand globally. And while you and I were talking about how, oh, you know, the WNBA can't just be the NBA 2.0, I happen to think in this case, having a global mindset that's smart. That is a quality that I think can carry over to both leagues. And so having someone who has a global mindset, I think would be excellent. I think someone who has experience working with some of the people who have levied the restraints could be very helpful. But I guess it's hard for me to know what other type of innovation some of these people could bring without me going through more of their interviews or actually interviewing them. You know, I just wonder how much throughout this succession process will there be a component of the interview process where these people are tested for how well they do as forward-facing people. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. I don't know, like a mock press conference type situation. I think that would be a very useful tool when assessing candidates. I think it'd be a great idea. It's a very front-facing job now in a way that it wasn't before. Correct. Yeah. Oh, Jackie, thank you so much for making the time. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me, Syrit. Man, I hope people listen to what was almost two hours. Yeah, me too. Because I think this was an excellent conversation where we could just really listen to each other, even if we disagree at uncertain points. And I mean, it goes back to what we were talking about when it comes to this country in general and polarization in general. So we just have to get in the rooms with each other a little bit more. We have to hear people. We have to listen to each other and do some critical thinking too, which I love and I think is just fun. I agree. I agree. It's the only way you grow as a person. So Jackie, appreciate you. As always, we will add Jackie's article to the show notes. Follow her work at NBC Sports at the 9, where she covers a liberty and follow her on all of her socials. You're like a very sparse poster. I feel like which is good, which is good. I feel like I don't post them now often. It's usually never you never need to post more. There's posting, posting as disease. Thank you. Thank you as well to Cliff Augustine for stepping into produce for us today. Thank you to Stefan Anderson. As always, and we will be back later this week.