BHE 36 - Object Relations Daggers to the Heart [Part 1] - Courtney Smith

I guess I think every type is actually acting quite logically. Like there's a consistency in a structure and a reason that they're doing what they do. And it looks fucked up to you because it's not your type. But if you can really get into what it must have been like to sort of experience a wound, to experience it over and over in a particular way, and to make sense of it in a particular way, then a lot of things that kind of fall out of that become sort of like, oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense that you would do this. If you really understand sort of this kind of deep psychological structure that's underlying a lot of those attributes and expressions, it becomes like a deeper understanding of what the type is trying to do. The big, unknown, and year-end. [MUSIC PLAYING] Hi, I'm John Lackovich, a sexual self-president with five-ling four or five-eight trifics. Hi, I'm David Gray, self-pressexual, nine-with-one, nine-seven-four trifics. What up, it's Emica. I'm an eight-winged seven, sexual self-president with eight-five-four-fixies. Hi, I'm Nancy. I am a self-pressocial three-winged four-with-a-three-six-nine trifics. If you like our podcast guys, make sure you go like and subscribe us on the Apple Podcast app. And if you really like us, you should definitely leave us a review. Where's Nancy? She says her laptop is dead. She's waiting for it to turn on. That's no excuse. It's a good metaphor for our entire existence at this point. [LAUGHTER] Hey, guys. Hey. What's up? Hello. You're going to talk to us today about Object Relations. [LAUGHTER] Get ready to be riveted. You're going to objectify us. [LAUGHTER] We're going to find ways to throw sexual jokes into this talk. Oh my gosh. I wouldn't expect nothing less. I do think the object relations needs to be rebranded. We do, actually. We brand it somehow. Yeah, people are actually interested in them. We got them to get it sexed up a little bit. Yeah, I think so. Frustration is now sexual frustration. Yes. All right. Sexual rejection. Sexual rejection. And sexual attachment. I am suddenly very interested in this talk. This is how we get people into the underground. People is how it's done. This is how we get you into the underground. [LAUGHTER] All right. So I got introduced to the underground after I was already married. So if you're dating someone, when do you introduce the underground as a concept immediately? It's the pickup line. Well, not the pickup line, but first date. For some of us it is. [LAUGHTER] I got it. I just plain it's a lot, David. That really explains a lot. Welcome to Big Hormone Enigram Cali Edition. I'm John. And I'm in California in St. T. Barbury. And it is lit as hell. And I have my friend Courtney here that I'm hanging out with. And I wanted to bring her on because she and I have been working on Enigram stuff. And Courtney's just had really brilliant insights and objects relations that I thought were super clarifying and really precise language and has helped me personally to distinguish the object relations, which are attachment, frustration, and rejection, and these underlying psychological dynamics that are a huge feature of the type. So welcome, Courtney. And please introduce yourself however you'd like. Yes, so hi. OK. Courtney Smith. I'm-- [LAUGHTER] I've got to rehearse the name. [LAUGHTER] I live in Santa Barbara. I've done four or five different things. Most recently, I guess, reproductive rights activism. I just moved my family out here and have taken a pause on that as we get settled. I'm a six with a 3-1-6, five wing, and lead social. I don't know if John and I-- John, do you have an opinion? This is very six, too. Do you have an opinion on what's number two? I suspect social self-prose. That's my current diagnosis. All right, we can go with that. Do you want to-- do you understand anything about where people can find you, if you want people to find you, or if you just want to remain anonymous? I'm talking about your work, just your house. [LAUGHTER] If someone wanted to find me, they could contact John. That would be great. OK, cool. I couldn't remember. Have you guys done a whole dedicated thing on object relations before, or has it just been kind of like snuck in? We have not. Yes, like-- OK. The-- this topic rests fully on your shoulders. So no pressure. Yep, OK. Yeah, and if people don't get it, it's your fault. Yeah. A thousand percent. Now, I don't really fully understand what object relations means. Courtney, what are object relations? I don't really like the name, and maybe John can talk about it from the perspective of the name. But the way that I think about it is to the extent that we all come into this world with a type, there's a certain kind of wound or like miss between parent and child that each type is going to be sort of predisposed to identify with and kind of have it create a crisis. And the reality is that like even if you're in a good parenting childhood environment, even with really good parents, they're missing you kind of like right and left. And that's actually like perfectly OK, and it's like just sort of the way it all is. But each type is going to take a particular kind of miss, and they're going to identify with it, and then they're going to try to deal with it in a certain way. Any comments before I keep going? Well, I think that's a really excellent way of framing it. And I think like different from how it's typically-- how I've seen it typically is grabbed. But one of the things that Don Riesso and Russ put together based on, I believe, was their influence from ALMOS was that specific types are characterized by a dominant dynamic or dominant wound and that there are three basic aspects or emotional dynamics that these what are called object relations are consulate around an attachment, rejection, or frustration. And each type experiences attachment, rejection, or frustration more-- you could say like a dominant affect. And predominantly with one, like the protective function, which is usually sort of described as the father figure, the one that helps you-- the parental function that helps you like learn how to create structure and create guidance knowing how to function independently. And what's often called the nurturing function, which is sort of associated with the mothering figure, but it's being loved, feeling seen, free who you are, being held. And you can have the-- different types have dynamics with both functions. Some have a function or have a dynamic that most is in relation to the nurturing function or the protecting function. So these are really super powerful in getting a fairly, I would say, like, objective or at least impartial view of the kind of wounding and the kind of repertoire of emotions and reactions that we have as each type. But also, like, I think that they're another way of-- they're more like a grounded psychological way of talking about the same thing that the passions are talking about with each type. And so from my perspective, one of the reasons that they're important is, in some ways, your relationship with your mother and your father or whomever is taking care of you, that's sort of the-- one of the first primary ways that your type has to sort of live on this world, and how personality becomes the evolution or the identification of pipe as you sit as a human being. So the reason that the early wounds that you suffer as a child, that we all experience as children, the reason that some of those are important is because the affect or response that you have to that wound then becomes almost like an organizing principle through which your personality becomes expressed. And it sort of becomes, like, one of the things that I get sort of annoyed about, like, with the NEA and Grand Books rights is, like, you get these, like, list of attributes of, like, all the different types. And it feels like, in order to understand the type, you need to, like, memorize the list. And I guess my thought is that if you really understand, sort of this kind of deep psychological structure that's underlying a lot of those attributes and expressions, it becomes, like, a deeper understanding of what the type is trying to do. And the logic of-- I guess I think every type is actually acting quite logically. Like, there's a consistency in a structure and a reason that they're doing what they do. And it looks fucked up to you, because it's not your type, but if you can really get into what it must have been like to to sort of experience a wound to experience it over and over in a particular way and to make sense of it in a particular way, then a lot of things that kind of fall out of that become sort of like, oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense that you would do this. If you're sort of the way you've understood reality and the way you've understood relationships is this. Also add that Courtney is a mom and has also studied a lot of early childhood psychology. And so I found her ability to bring that in and synthesize it with the endagram was really useful and illuminating and I thought her capacity for language was really good, especially from that point of view. I'm really like what you said about books focusing on traits and list of traits as not really getting the full picture of what a type is about and a type is about psychological dynamics and I feel like more people need to hear that and sometimes people fixate on certain traits and say, oh, so if an eight does this or if a seven does this then or if you do, if you express this and that's what that means, but it's like you're not really, if people understand the underlying reason for what that type is trying to do, what they're trying to get out of it, then you can start to understand all the different ways that no description could describe how that type might show up. Like if you understand what they're trying to do, then you know, you can spot it even no, no, no book or no description has actually described that particular behavior. If you know where it's coming from, it's like understanding the illness versus just stating the symptoms. There you go, absolutely. Yeah, and I think it creates a lot more capacity for empathy and compassion for yourself and whatever you're doing in your own kind of fucked up way, but also for other people, it becomes easier to almost embody them as opposed to like a list of like qualities that they have. And a list is not very deep either. It doesn't really, it's pretty static. It doesn't really have the ability to grow and move if someone gives you a list of things, but if you understand like, oh, this is, this is like the kernel of why these lists or this list of behaviors might arise, we could arise from. Then you can actually like create your own list, you know, that's also applicable. Well, it's like, it's like when people are like, oh, for is the sensitive type? And then we know how that has ruined so much because, you know, everybody's sensitive to some degree or another and everybody has an interpretation of what that word means. And, you know, if we want to talk about sensitive in like a general way, like nine is the sensitive type, but then there's other kinds of sensitivity. And so it's like language and lists and traits are a problem because they're so up for interpretation. And so you need to have a felt sense of each type. And the only way to do that is to start to empathize with each type and feel like as Courtney was saying, like the wound and imagining this wound being played out, you know, a thousand times a day. The other thing I want to say just I don't know if, you know, I've done a lot of reading because I'm a mom and I'm very interested in all of this and I've done a lot of my own sort of discovery and psychology, but I'm not a trained clinician or psychologist or anything like that. I think like one other thing that I think about before we like get into sort of like the what actually each type is and what's going on. I think the other thing that happens in some of the books that I also really resist is they'll be like, well, you know, Joe's father was an alcoholic and that's why he became a one, you know, like this sort of like trying to look at the childhood experience and have that be evidence for what particular type you are. And I think actually like there's good parenting and bad parenting and it of course that really matters, but I don't think it matters in terms of what type you become. Absolutely. Yeah. Reality is any parenting sort of environment. There's enough buck ups, small, some small, some big some medium, whatever, like to create any type. And it's the essence that you're coming into this world with that causes you to fixate and pay attention to certain kinds of wounds. That's what's creating the type as opposed to the parenting environment itself. Yeah. Well said anything else before we all get into it. How does this fit in with being born with your type? Is there a way to talk about that? I mean, to elaborate on my own question. I mean, to me, it's that you're as a child, you're creating the dynamic almost. No. I mean, where do you guys, where are you on that, Courtney? I don't know what the word is dynamic, but I definitely think that, you know, like it's kind of like abstract. So like let's just talk about like a specific like example, like you're a baby, you're like on the changing table, like you're smiling and cuing and like whatever. Sounds great. Yeah. And your mom's checking her phone, right? And you're like looking for eye contact and you're looking for someone to sort of like acknowledge you're having a good time and she's just looking at your phone. Now like some babies, like whatever they just like look at something else or they wait for the mom or they like there's a rattle or like it doesn't register. It has no significance for them. It's like, yep, she wasn't paying attention and I just continue right along. But for another particular type, there's going to be meaning attributed to the fact that she's not meeting you. And I do agree with you. Like I'm now, I've done like a lot of thinking about the object relation stuff and I think that there's obviously a lot more thinking that could be done. But I feel like one next kind of like place to apply it and would be really cool to talk with people about it is as exactly as you're saying, like if this is the type of wound that you identify with as a six or a five or a four and we assume that's because of some sort of essence that you're kind of coming into this world with. What's the connection between the two? And the thing about that is that it forces you to be really clear on what the wound is and it also forces you to be really clear about what the essence quality is. And then only then can you begin to like really, I think understand the connection. And I think there is one. I just don't know if I know just to me, that's like a really big, interesting topic that I want to think a lot more about in the future. Just to get into the territory of you as an essence, pre designing where you're going to land. Are you talking like almost like we in a simpler way of saying are you almost talking about like we set ourselves up for the lessons we had to learn or something like that? Something like that or set or at least like a karma or at least set ourselves up to play out the dynamic of the object relation of the type that we're coming into the world ads. If we are born with our type, right? I agree with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like inevitable. Right. Yeah. So I think we should get into like the details of it. I think we should get into it. And you know, like what an object relation is is the relation between the dynamic that becomes the blueprint or the template for how we as subjects are, you know, experience ourselves and experience the world and we experience a self concept or a self image. So it's not like a literal image of ourselves, but it's like a felt sense of ourselves. And we experience a object image that was originally based on our experience of our early parental figures and environment. And so there's this unconscious self image and unconscious felt object image. It's like we sometimes we project this onto individual people, but we also project it onto the world at large. And then between ourselves, the subject image and the object image is a familiar affect. And so it's kind of like an emotional constellation. And as we've described in other calls, you know, attachment, rejection and frustration are the names given to these effects. And as I said before, the object, the psychological object is related to in terms of protecting as a protective function and a nurturing function. And is there anything more you want to say on that, Courtney? I mean, yeah, I think that I think that's all like summarizing it really well. Again, like, and this is just like me being a sex, like it's super tempting, I think, right? To like make this like grid of like, you know, is this a rejection type? Is it, you know, are they dealing with like the, you know, the guidance function or the nurturing function or the dealing with both? And it is like a helpful shortcut, I suppose, like, to sort of like under like to like have a cursory, oh, that's a frustration type. So I think when we talk about it, like, it is just, it's a label because we have to label it with something because of language. But I think as we get into it, I think it's also to like, what does that actually mean? And what does that actually feel like? And then I think you can actually examine sort of, especially in the attachment area, which is as a sixth, the one that I had to like come to last in terms of like trying to understand it. But in some ways, I think it, once I thought I understood what was going on, made the most sense to me, it's also, you can sort of start to see patterns and habits across that particular affect, like what all the attachment types are doing, what all the frustration types are doing, what all the rejection types are doing. Yeah. And I think for that reason, like, I mean, when we went through it together, starting with frustration and going rejection and then attachment last, make the most, makes the most sense because it sets up the clearest conversation. And I think just also again, and this is just like literally the exercise I did like after talking with John and doing this like grid and then being like I have made this grid and it's gotten me nowhere. I don't understand anything better. As John said, parents are doing like all kinds of things, but you can sort of broadly categorize. You know, when they miss a kid, are they missing like this is the kid not feeling seen or feeling unconditional love, which would be like what the shorthand we're calling the nurturing function. Or is the kid not feeling supported in their ability to function in this world, given confidence that they can know what they want that they can execute on it that they're a force who can take care of themselves. And that would be the support function. And for me, I had to like get kind of almost like childlike about like what is that like so that I could really feel it. And like for the nurturing function, I really like as I said before like imagine a baby like on his or her back, like looking up and smiling and either the mom smiles back and like looks the baby in the eye, where she doesn't. And that's like to me like the, the kind of the simplest sort of embodiment of what it means to feel seen and unconditionally love. And on the support or guidance function, you know, it because I think this happens later. It's like a little one year old, like a toddler, who's like finally gotten up on their like feet and they like see a toy or whatever that's across the room. And they start trying to like walk over to the toy and they're not they you know they don't trust their feet, they're not stable. And they're trying to like figure out if they're going to be able to do it. And they look up and like, you know, their father is there sort of like with his arms outstretched, the thing you can do this. And they go for that boy and either they do that or they don't. And so then if you can like really kind of like obviously there's all kinds of different. Let's just like one example, but I think like imagining what does it feel like to try to to look up and smile and not be seen back. Or to try to like walk for the toy. Don't think you can do it and have no one around to tell you that you can. What is what happens to you. If that happens thousands and thousands of times and you find that you experience that as a crisis. And across the types, you can identify with the the misses on the nurturing side, the misses on the support side, the guidance side or both. And so that's one of the that's one of the flavors. And then as John was saying, how you make sense of that. What becomes the emotional kind of affect or response to that miss can either be frustration rejection or attachment. Yeah. And you say more about that word miss what you're meaning there. I guess I for me like again, this like goes back to like the way I think it's understood and written in books and also sort of my experience being a parent and actually like being like an adult. Like these aren't like horrible things that are happening almost all the time. You know, it's not like neglect. And you know, I mean, obviously that does happen, but the reason I call is it's so unintentional and seemingly so benign. He or she doesn't happen to meet you exactly at the moment that you want to be met in that certain way. And that's like basically part of the human condition, right. And so it's like let's built into relationships. And so just sort of emphasizing that there's there's nothing you can do about it and to not judge it. And so it's like a problem for happening in between any parent and child. It's it's inevitable as you were describing earlier and inevitable that a child will attach and find it's give meaning to it in a way that the act itself was never the miss itself was never meant to have. Interesting. You want to go to the types. Yeah, let's do it. Should we just frustration. Yeah, let's start with seven because it'll what'll that'll do is set up like the different functions as we go. And then one and then four. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, perfect. Cool. Anything Emma carnancy before we go. Oh, that's good. Might be the quietest I've ever heard you. Yeah. It's a little shocking. No, this is just there's a lot that I'm thinking of. This is a. It's just very clear to explain those things in that in that way. Like I can actually picture it and feel it. So it's it's just bringing up a lot of thoughts in terms of a kind of like opening it up for me. We got a mental type on the call. Y'all. Okay, so seven. So. And again, like when I talk about like what frustration and rejection and attachment are, I also like am deliberately using kind of childish like baby like child like baby is kind of words. And I think that's also important because the way that they're going to make sense of this is is very childlike it's going to be overly simplistic in some ways right because they're a baby. And so like feeling the hurt and the wound and feeling the clumsiness that with which we all try to kind of deal with it. I think you really get a sense of that when you use kind of you don't use fancy language to talk about what's happening. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Okay, so the seven sitting there. Looking up at the table looking up for a smile from his mom. He's smiling. The mom is like busy changing his diaper. And this is it. And this child says you didn't see me and is pissed off about it. But also says very quietly to himself. And you never will. And I am so sad and frustrated that this I'm never going to be seen. And there's an immense and I'm going to have to do it myself. I guess I'm going to have to do this myself. And so what starts out as a sadness that a parent has missed them becomes this deep sort of resignation and frustration with the state of the world. The function that they're hoping their parent will provide for them. They now feel they have to do all in their own. And so, you know, seven is a mental type. And so we normally associate this. This need to be seen with with the image types. And so how do you how do you reconcile that that didn't see me. With being a mental type. I think what's happening is, and this is what it means about kind of being like childlike or babyish. If you have to see yourself as a very Chinese child. And actually the gift that you have is mental capacity. You're going to lean into that as a way to do it. Because that's really all you have. And that's of course not the way you do actually see yourself. You know, you have you just sort of sit with yourself and you just allow yourself to be. But if you've got no modeling and no sort of understanding of how to do that. You lean on what you can. You lean on what you have. And for the seven that's their sort of I can see myself when I'm happy. I can see myself when I feel good. But I can't see myself in pain. Yeah. So for listeners like the way that the seven is normally described as a frustration type. And that's what I'm trying to do. And I'm just trying to get that feeling straighted with the nurturing function. And there's a. So the response is, OK, I didn't get the nurturing. I needed something to go out and get it myself. And, you know, what what gluttony is the passion of the seven. Is this sense of trying to go and get it myself. But not because of what. According to saying there's a lack of seeing. There's a lack of guidance or recognizing. And I'm just trying to get it myself. Right. And the breasts, right. And the. And so the seven's kind of looking for a new sweet milk out there. Right. I have to get it. I have to get it. I have to go out there and get it myself. Right. I have to. All the yummy. All the yummy sensual stuff. Right. Is partly what mother is, too. Totally. All the nipples. Yeah. But I almost like think of it also. I'm just trying to get it myself. So it's like sort of like. And this is the mental type. And I feel like I can say this because I am a mental type. It's a little bit like a robot being given directions on like, How do I see myself. And it's like, I do this. Like, I just keep going and I. You know, there's no sort of. I sit and feel it. You know, and just sit. Yeah. True. That's really the robot analogy. That's pretty interesting, especially given seven. It's, you know, six and five can kind of get. And it's more natural or apparent. Yeah. Like for seven that, you know, sometimes people, I think even Courtney, you were saying like sometimes the seven doesn't even seem like a mental type. But like when you, when you put it that way, it's like you can, there is a rope. bot thickness because it's like this program playing out. And because there are robots, they're actually never going to actually feel it, right? I mean, as least as I had the personality is in operation. So it's like the, the, the command is just going to keep going and going because it's a robot, right? You know, it actually can't feel itself in the form of person, and in the form of the way the personality is being expressed. It's set up to fail. Right. Anything else about seven? Y'all. Not at the juncture. No, I never heard of a seven described as a robot really. So that was, that's interesting. Yeah. Anything else on seven corner? No, but I also just like, I'm happy to like, have you disagree or have you like say, I don't know, I don't know, but I don't know if I buy that or like what I mean, talk shit, we'll talk shit after, but not while you're on the, yeah, we'll talk about your back. I'll talk shit while you're on the fly. I disagree with everything you're saying. So also, you know, I'm a sick, right? So I need like pressure back. Don't worry. I'll give it to you. Okay. To push my own thinking. Like, so sucks. It's horrible. Just what I needed. All right. One. Yeah, let's do one. Okay. All right. Let me actually, before you get in your thing, I'll do the more like what's more familiar. You know, like, yeah. So like, and then you can blow it open. But, uh, yeah. So the one is, is described also seven, one of four, our frustration types. And so if seven is frustrated with the nurturing function, the idea is that one is a body type that is frustrated with the protective function or the structure making function. And the idea is that they're frustrated. And so they didn't get the guidance. They didn't get the structure that they wanted or needed. And so there's a sense of like, well, fuck it. I'm going to do it myself. And so, uh, you know, the, the, the anger, the passion of anger of the one is actually really, it's a frustration that things are not as they should be. And one of the things that's interesting about this for one is that one's think that they're being very objective, like that they see how things ought to be. But really, they're basically responding to like the kind of structure that they need or want. Um, so there's this confusion of objectivity and subjectivity. But, but yeah, it's this underlying frustration, um, that's directed at a different function than seven, but you can see that they're the, the line between seven and one has this theme of frustration going on. And I think also similarly, like how I was talking about with the seven, the one is basically trying to understand the principles through which life should be lit, how you function, right? Like, like, how do I want? How do I do it? How would other people? How should other people act? Like, what's the, what are the rules here? And because that has, because they've decided at a very, very early age that they're going to figure this out on their own, they are now relying on their strength of being a body type to actually determine what are really sort of abstract concepts around like rules and behaviors. But it's being like actually, they don't talk about it that way, but it's being like sort of, it's a felt, I felt sense of like, this is the right thing. This is the wrong thing. You know, what creates integrity? What are the things to live by? But it's, it has like fancy language, but it's actually really being driven by a body sense of it because that's, that's where they went to try to figure it out on their own. A body sense of already knowing how everything should be done. Exactly. That's really interesting because I, I hadn't thought of type one as, as a body type, I have a sense of, okay, this, this is where things are supposed to go. You got to move this person here, blah, blah, you can make this happen. And I never thought about like ones having a sense of sort of right and wrong through the body. That's wild. Yeah. That, that, that right and wrong through the body is, is about boundaries. You know, it's like, the things that are good are what I allow myself to incorporate through, you know, and that's based on instinct. So it's like, like, especially with like self-pres1, it's like, oh, I only eat organic, you know. So like, that's like, those, like organic food has the clear to like, be incorporated. Or like, I only like, my, my sexual partners or sexual relationships are like this. And so those have the green light to be like incorporated in my boundaries. Or this group or these people or this, whatever, this organization has like, good. So it's got the green light for me to be affiliated with it or feel connected in the bad that, you know, it's like this confusion of instinctual regulation and like some sense of objective right and wrong. Yeah, it just clicked for me like, you know, I have a, like a body sense of things that have potential to for action or, you know, just leverage points or something like that. And just like I had, I just have a sense for that. And so just it clicked for me that ones have a sense for what has integrity to them, like that sense of good and bad. And I just, I never put that together. Until now, yeah. And I think, I mean, I have this one fixed that I've only like recently discovered through talking with John, but I also sort of feel like it's almost like, what are the things that make me sit up straighter? Those things are, those things are good. And it's a good way to put it. Yeah. And anything that makes me crumple or just kind of willed, like, no, not good. No. For me, if I put on a shirt and I feel like, oh, I'm larger than life. So, and they'll have a lot of principles and reasons behind it. But I really think that a lot of it is like, how does this, how do I stand when I eat organic food or whatever? Like, how does this make, how do I register my body when this is, and if it makes me feel aligned, basically in integrity with my own body? Yes. Right. And a lot of that mental stuff is like mental ketchup to justify or explain the uprightness or not. Yeah. Like a lot of a lot of ones often think that they're mental types, you know, because they spend so much time thinking about right and wrong and rationalizing and stuff. It's like the mental center often getting like part of what makes one so opaque is that the mental center is all tied up in the body center. It's all tied up in rationalizing and creating narratives around the right and wrong thing. Rather than the right and wrong thing just like happening through the body, but then the mind's still being available. Like the mind gets co-opted. And so, so yeah, it's like it's this fascinating thing of the use of centers. Yeah. That's a really good insight for me. Like the sense, the physical sense of alignment and it's permanence to it's like one is, it's looking for the eternal way that everybody's supposed to eat organic food, right? And they always, they always should have done it that way for thousands of years. And they need to keep doing it the way I do it for thousands of years. I'm exaggerating, right? But I mean, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's that kind of, it's that solidity of the gut, right? It's that low center of gravity of the body of that permanent subprinciple. And I mean, the way you put that to like the thousands of years, it gets into that nine cosmic all connection thing in extolar. Yeah. But, but, but, but to me, the gut is all that, but that's another conversation. I don't think you even really got into the one, like the wound. True. Yeah. So, the girl is standing. She let's go with a couch. She's got her truck, because I'm going to like the fire gender or whatever that she really wants over there. And she's taking these like first hesitant like steps on her feet and she really wants that truck. And she's afraid she's going to fall and she looks up and she's looking for someone to catch her or she's looking for someone to outstretch their arms or she's looking for her dad to say you can do this, go get that truck. And there's no one there. And she says there's no one here to help me figure this out. And there never will be, I'm going to have to do this myself. Is the never will be is that part of frustration or is never will be kind of go with all of them? The reason for me, the never will be like was really, really important. And there are frustration types on the call so they can weigh in or not. But for me, skipping to the frustration, I actually think that there's, and this is like one of the things I would think that frustration type should spend more time with, I think there's tremendous sadness that's actually happening first before the frustration kind of takes over. And it's almost like the frustration is trying to hide. And I think the four is probably the most in touch with the sadness and the chronic disappointment. But I think that it's actually there and weighs quite heavily on the seven and then one in a way that they don't really talk and acknowledge. So similarly. or follow up question is frustration a response to sadness? And then the other rejection and attachment, it's gonna be some other emotion, not as opposed to sadness. - So, I think that's a really interesting question. I think like what you're gonna see is each one of them kind of gives up on the relationship or not in different ways. And the frustration type is basically the one that's kind of like giving up on the relationship earliest. - Yeah. - Yeah. (laughing) - Yeah. (laughing) - Or sometimes yourself. - Yeah, so the other types are doing something different. They're not giving up on it. I don't think. And, but I think the frustration type is. - To some of what you're saying Courtney about like the grief or sadness, like, yeah, I think grief is probably the word that I would use. And like I definitely, that's kind of in a cliched way. Like I think sevens gets, sevens gets stereotyped is not being able to feel deep feelings. And I know that we just talked about them as robots. So I'm gonna contradict myself. But you know, sevens feel a lot and they're very sensitive. But they, like the way I always put it when I'm teaching is that they, you know, they can deal with sadness, but they can't, it's hard for them to deal with feelings that I would call like limiting emotions. So like, something like grief, you can't really just get over. Like it has to run its course. And like if you're sad, you can kind of cheer yourself up and distract yourself. But grief, like if you've ever really grieved for somebody, it runs its course and you can't hurry it along. Like you have to go abide by its pace and so those kinds of heavy feelings, I think that's what seven tries to jump out of and they try to avoid confronting. And likewise, as, you know, Courtney is alluding to, it's like the anger, the passion of the one, is really it's grief. And it's almost like grief, but, and one's often that when they're starting to grow past some of their habitual patterns, get in touch with this sense of grief and grieving something, the loss of something sacred usually. And anger is a way to charge oneself up because it's like I can either collapse and go to four or I can like get fucking pissed off and try to like fix this shit. And when the type one's ego projects are to fail, and it's like they're really seeing that they're not doing anything better by being all angry. Like then they usually do collapse into this like bottomless well of grief. - I think that's why the stakes are so high too because, you know, when you think about sort of the one and this felt sense of integrity, but they also have it for the, like they are sort of, it's a fallen world basically from their perspective. And the grief in some ways is that. And because of that, it, you know, you can try all you want, you can, you know, march, agitate whatever you do, like from an ideal's perspective, but the reality is that it will always be a fallen world. And that is the part of the one that grief that I think they want to hold a little bit at because it's like, well, then why even bother doing this? What's the point? So it's being able to still sort of, to experience and sort of hold the grief, the idea that there's always going to be suffering, there's always going to be things that are, could be done better and have tremendous cost for not being done well, to be in touch with that and still want things to change. - Right, anything else, y'all on one? - Oh, that's good. - Cool. Yeah, let's, let's go to four. So four is frustration type, but they're frustrated both with the nurturing function and the protective function. So the idea is that nobody fucking saw me and nobody showed me how to function. So I can't function and I am going to see myself. I'm going to figure out who and what I am because fuck y'all couldn't do it. And, you know, it's part of what gets lost often is that how much there's this frustration and anger in four that's this agitated pushing away from the outside because both of those functions that are supposed to come from the outside failed me. And so I'm, I'm to deal with it. Four goes to introspection and overindividuation. And so it's like, you know, fours would rather be themselves or they'd rather, you know, die than not be themselves, you know, but, but what being myself means and how I find that gets really confusing for the four and overwhelming, but envy and Courtney actually uses phrase before with the one and talk about frustration. envy is basically chronic disappointment. Like everything is disappointing to me. Everything fails me and even myself fails me. And so I'm push, like I always think of, where I just grab four is like, I'm pushing away from the surface of things, right? Like, because the essential quality of four is depth and so the surface, therefore, it looks artificial and empty and because as a kid or whatever is in this object relational dynamic, it never gave me anything. It could never provide anything real. So I like, it seems like if this can't provide anything real, then at least maybe abiding by something on the inside can, can I can find something real there? Yeah, and I think it provides like a really nice contrast actually to seven because I actually think the nurturing function is, you know, happens earlier than the support or guidance function. And so, you know, you picture both the seven and the four lying on their back, you know, mom misses them and they say, you didn't see me and you never will. And the seven, because they end up feeling less identified and more kind of confident or like take for granted their ability to function in the world, that becomes the way through which they deal with the lack of being seen. They rely upon action, right? And their ability to, you know, just be in the world. The four, they're trying to walk and get the truck and the dad is at his desk or whatever, not paying attention. And so they don't have that to rely upon to help figure out on their own how to develop a sense of self. They basically have to do it not in this world because they don't, they weren't taught how to be in this world. And so that's why I think the sort of the way that the four kind of develops their sense of self, which is almost by sort of like keeping the world at arms length. And not only keeping them the world at arms length, but being like, I don't know how to exist out here. And I've just already set it up that like by definition, the only way I can define myself is not by being not in the world. Yeah. And so now I don't even like feel very good doing this. I don't feel very good like functioning. And not only do I not feel very good trying to figure this out, it's got a big cost for me because I'm going to end up losing myself because the only way I know how to define myself is by staying out of it. And being not like the world and not like other people. Right. So it's like the four doesn't, there's nothing in the world for the four. Right. No one, no one's going to see me and I can't do anything. And I was proven at a very young age. And not only is there nothing in the world for me, it will destroy me potentially. Right. It's going to degrade or take away or strip me of the thing that's precious to me and my connection to what's real. And it's like every second spent doing taxes or something like that is it feels like some way that I'm giving up on the only precious thing that I experience in life. Yeah. Yeah. It's intense. Hug a four today. hashtag check on your forces. Definitely don't hug them just like, you know, like, like they would let you hug them. Yeah, just like, you know, I can generally tie their shoulder. And like John, for you, like being a four when we kind of talk about it this way, is there anything that helps you see yourself more clearly or understand it and a difference slightly different way or certain language that you're like, yeah, that really resonates with me. Like anything about what we're talking about it that feels different to you, but also helpful. I think just the clarity of seeing it in these terms because, you know, the way that, you know, being for, speaking is for, there's sort of an, I would say, like, a mythologizing or poeticizing. of the wound, right? Like framing it aesthetically. And I think in some ways that that brings a certain kind of clarity, or at least like, like it transmits the quality of the wound, but I don't think it always elucidates the nature of it. You don't want to say? And so like, I found it just, there's a couple of things that like your phrase, like the frustration types giving up on the relationship the earliest, or the frustration types in contrast as we get into later with rejection and attachment, like having a sense of what they needed, more clearly than the rejection and attachment. Like these kinds of things feel real. There's a way to put it. I have noticed since talking about it in these terms, how quickly I do think that the relationship, whether it's like myself in the world, or with other people, or with Lauria, or whoever, like there's a place I go to where I give up on it real fast. And I go to frustration because that thing is fail. And seeing the speed with which I'm assuming that the relationship is failed or unable to provide, or I have to get this myself, or like somehow, it's like I'm seeing how I am turning my back on others, or turning my back on the world, or turning my back on my own possibility so quickly, because I think this early life sense of like the relationship failed, and that's what I can expect from now fucking on, is so automatic that I go to that place so quickly that it ends up that I am betraying or giving up on, or assuming that the relationship or the connection is dead. Does that make sense? - Yeah, that's really interesting. - What you said there's interesting too, about one, four, seven, possibly having a more clear sense of what they actually wanted. Maybe? - Yeah. - That's interesting. - I mean, these types all suck or whatever, but like those three are the, those three types are the ones that are the most willing to say to mom and dad, you did not do your job. (laughing) - Right, right. - They may not do it now, like as an adult, but that's what they were thinking. And that's why they leave early. - The spirit. - So there's, yeah. So there's more violence, there's more confrontation, a willingness to confront more expectation. - I mean, one of the feelings that translates into his hopelessness, like I don't know, I don't know what the, for the other types, like I don't know the thought sense experience, but this thing of giving up on the relationship the earliest, it's like leads to just a fundamental sense of hopelessness, like that I think that one and seven spend more time trying to kind of combat against their own sense of hopelessness. Like ones aren't a sense hopeful in reaction to their actually eipsidated hopelessness, but that four gets really identified with the hopelessness. Or ones are creating something quote unquote objective, right? - Yeah, well, like they're creating, but there's a hope in one and seven that I'll get the thing that I want. Or like the wine, it's like this will work out, or like I'm gonna fix it and then the seven's, like I'm gonna get the next thing, and then the four's like, "I'm gonna get the complete." You know? - I'm just gonna kill myself. - Yeah. - It's terrible. - Do you guys like wind up toy better than robot for seven? - Oh, wind up, that's why that's not bad, yeah. Yeah, okay. - Yeah, I could see that. - Right, 'cause that gives you more of the quality that I'm talking about, right? - Right. - I get what you're saying. - Just gonna keep going. - Yep. And even if I run into a wall, I'm just gonna keep going. - Arumba. (laughing) - That's funny. - I think we should get on to the reject effect. - Okay, the eights. - Yeah, do a little spill. - Do you wanna be conventional, John? - Yeah. (laughing) Actually, you know, since we're doing things very unconventional on having a reaction and going straight to manual. (laughing) So, five, eight, and two are rejection types. So eights are rejection. And the idea is that they reject the nurturing function. And I think, I'll be pretty brief with this 'cause I think Courtney has a much better way of articulating what that actually means. But as it results in the personality type, what you get is somebody who tries, therefore, to embody or provide, in a sense, like identify with the protecting function. So they reject, they feel that the qualities that the nurturing function was supposed to see and embracing them were somehow not seen or embraced. And so they reject it in themselves. It's like they self-amputate. And all three rejection types have some sense of self-amputation. There's a way that there's some part of myself was rejected. And so I reject and in the case of at least two and eight, they then identify or take on the role of the opposite functions in the case of eight, nurturing function, like that part of me was rejected. So identify and provide the protecting function. And also with the rejection types, what you get is all three tend to really provide a lot of energy that in the flavor of their dominant center. So eights tend to provide the most overt body energy to provide the most overt part energy and fives, presents the most overt mental energy. - Yeah, so the eight, the little baby sitting on the tanger table, whatever, it looks up, smiles, tries to make eye contact with his mom and his mom doesn't see him. It's like too busy doing something else. And the baby says, you didn't see me and you're right. I don't need to be seen. - Yeah. - I agree. And this self-amputation that John is talking about, it's almost like the eight says, I cannot bear to feel the wound of you continuing to not see me. I choose to self-amputate that part of my body altogether. I would rather suffer that wound than the wound of you failing to see me over and over again. - What's being amputated? Is it heart? - Yes, yes, the need to be seen. - Oh. (laughing) - What's fascinating about this to me is the agreement. - Yeah, well, I don't know if I'd use the word agreement, but it's almost like not allowing yourself to feel that hurt by cutting off the part that could feel the hurt. So it's like you somebody stabbed me in the arm. I just cut the arm off. - Instead of having to feel your arm being stabbed again? - Yeah, exactly. - Exactly. - But you can't hurt me because I'm just gonna remove the possibility. (laughing) - No, thank you. - The vulnerability. - Yeah. - It's even like if we're using the stab metaphor, it's like what hurts more than being stabbed is the fact that somebody did a stabbing. - Yes. - Yeah. - I'd rather hurt myself than let it come from somewhere else. - Right. - But no, it really stands out to me. And I don't remember where we talked about this, but something about like just agreeing to say that I don't matter. Let's say a situation is hurting me. The disturbing aspect of this is sort of self negating. (laughing) - Yeah. - That's going on. A lot of people see AIDS as this big outward personality, but not recognizing that this is a self negation of saying that I'm going to cut off this aspect of myself that could feel hurt. And it's kind of fucked up. (laughing) - Well, and I also think that like I know that the common thing when people talk about their rejection types is to talk about each of them sort of offering something. And as John was describing like from their, their dominant center. And I guess my perspective is I think that that's true, but I think also they've made a tremendous sacrifice. And that's part of what they're not going to articulate, but I think also is in that offering, it's like see what I did. - Offering is a good word in the rejection space. But I like that because yeah, see what I did. There's like the replacement for the act, the self-seeing. - Yeah. - Just like, - Yeah, how's this landing in the car? - Yeah, like I've thought of the ways that I've, like I'm thinking of romantic situations. I don't know if you guys have heard some stories. I'm not sure if seemingly entertaining stories have matched this like painful situations that I seem to have. to enjoy putting myself into. And I'm recognizing how there's a pattern of not being able to register how I'm hurting myself or feeling hurt. It's almost like when it happens, it's like I'm watching it happen to someone else. And it doesn't, it sounds really fucked up because I'm actually being hurt. But it doesn't actually land that that's happening. And it's like almost like, oh, I can rationalize it in so many different ways. Let's say that this is just hilarious. This thing that's happening, maybe I'm offering entertaining stories to my friends about some crazy shit that I got myself into. But it's almost like I'm not involved here. I'm pulling something out of it. It seems like I'm offering something either to myself or to others about a fucked up situation that I have chosen to remain in. So it's interesting to see the mental gymnastics that how I'm convincing myself that I'm not being affected or that I'm not even involved in my own life. I mean, that tracks with eight and one as N9 is all three forms of dissociation. Yeah. Yeah. I guess it's really hitting me how self-negating that is. There's an element of self-deletion that's going on. And I didn't really feel that fully until now. Thanks, Courtney. Yeah, Courtney. Thanks for ruining my life. Yeah. I was playing with different visual images for all of these, which we can get into. But like a yin and a yang of one side is your heart and the other, which is the nurturing. And then the other side is the guidance function. And both of those-- you need those two things to create the fully formed ego. And for the frustration types, they're all kind of enemic because they were sort of whichever one has been wounded is kind of enemic. Enemic because it was developed on its own. So it's there, but it's kind of fragile. And I'll talk about the attachment types later, but it's like for the rejection types, they've just locked off one side altogether. So wait, does that mean which five they just apitated both? Yes. Jesus fucking Christ. That is fucked up, man. And I struggle with functioning in the boroughs. It has amputated both. Yeah. Screw this. That'll even make any sense. No. It's where it gets similar to four. So then you have to go further inside. It's all going to be-- or somehow in some kind of depth space around information or theoretical stuff. Yeah. They have to get it away from the world. And self becomes abstracted. Right. Theoretical. Self. Yeah, if they could be code, they would. Right. Right. Yeah, hold in. This really opens up the types in a way that-- like you can just see the function of the sort of house, how it's built. Yeah. Especially for four and five, just like picturing not having either of those functions and feeling like you can't even get it from the world, that really illustrates the whole sort of separation aspect of those two types. Mm-hmm. I mean, you can sort of like conceptually say, oh, yeah, four and five are separation types. They're trying to push away. But you don't know why. This really illustrates why that's happening. And the other thing I was going to say is just here in Amica, you talk about your own experiences. I thought what John said about his sort of automated, habitual reaction to kind of give up on the relationship too early or to assume it's doomed or whatever. Like the equivalent for the eight is to assume-- to be in this relationship, to be in a relationship, I have to deny being hurt ever. And I have to deny caring about that. That self-sacrifice is built into every relationship. And it has in a habitual automated way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it feels like just thinking back to some of my romantic episodes. It feels like I don't want to say that I can't be hurt, but that's what it ends up becoming. Like it doesn't feel like anything that's happening can affect me, even though it is. Or if it is affecting me, it doesn't register. I mean, of course, that's a lie. But it feels like I should be able to take or handle-- or I feel like I'm capable of handling whatever is happening, but what is going on is that I am self-negating completely deleting any aspect of my humaneness, like my ability to actually be hurt. That's crazy. Just like talking through that. Yeah. [LAUGHTER] They're all crazy. Yeah. All of them. Yeah, I hope people get into this kind of shit, because people get so stuck on typing and so confused. And if you get really deep into each type, it's completely different universes. And it's hard to get confused once you understand how these types are working. Yeah. So I hope people get into this stuff, because I get tired of talking about typing, because it's such a surface level. You can render the typing question useless or not important if you get deep enough. So I hope people get into this kind of stuff, because the types become super clear. Yeah. Well, and I think also, just for my own self, as I've been doing some of this thinking, and it's really opened up how I understand some of the things that I do, not that I thought more about attachment. And instead of being like, oh, I just mentally went through everyone in my family to think about what they were going to say or what about what I'm about to do here. Instead of just saying, I just did that again. Now I have a better sense of why I'm doing that. And I can sort of say, oh, there I go again, I know why I'm doing this. I can-- and go back to the original wound, the original thing I'm trying to solve, and something like annoyed or just trying to change the behavior. Yes. Yeah, I wish-- I hope that eventually-- because when you come into the program, what you're presented with is the list of traits. And that's not helping anybody. I don't really-- I think this is what I wish I would have learned, like the deep psychological dynamics early on, because you can work with that. You can actually do something with that. And you can have some compassion on yourself as to what's actually going on. Versus this sort of like, egoic identification game that we end up playing with type descriptions. But it's like, that's not helping anyone. So I wish I would have known this kind of stuff this clearly earlier, because it really makes your type-- you really know the root of it, what is driving the whole thing. And that's more important than any fucking description. Thanks to 3D versus just a 2D fucking fly description. Yeah. Well, it's going to 2 and then 5. OK. So I'll set up to-- on the flip side of 8, 2 is a rejection type, but they reject or feel rejected by the protective function. And so part of what's going on with 2 is there is a sense that my independence, my autonomy, I can't-- my self will is amputated. It's-- I can't have those things and have the connection and have the place in the world that I want. And so I feel like those things have to be severed and that my personality becomes organized around relationships and providing that nurturing function and identifying with it and being that for other people. But at the cost of feeling like I can be myself fully and be of myself and for myself. And so part of pride is an element of this-- or a result of this self-amputation, right? Because it's like to be the protective function-- or excuse me-- to be the nurturing function and off of that for people, I need to be this loving, good, all positive motivations person. And pride is overlooking where-- a lot of my motivations might be more self-interested or complex or just human because I have to be an angel. I can't be a human. human have to be an angel. Yeah, I think it's like a good contrast in terms of it's sort of like the blueprint, right? Like for, which is what you said at the beginning, the blueprint for how each of these types sort of understands and reacts in relationship. How the personality understands makes sense and reacts in relationship. That's blueprinted from these very early interactions, basically. And with the two, you know, he's standing up, he's trying to take his steps towards the doll and the dad is not there to cheer him on. And the toddler says, you're right, I don't need to go for that truck anyway or that doll anyway. Who needs to be out in the world? I agree. They crawl right back up, right? Like into a merged state. And they basically agree to suffer the wound, the sacrifice of I will not venture out into this world. Because as I understand relationship, if I do, I will be acknowledging the failure of this relationship. And I'm not going to do that. It risks failing and it risks failure of relationship for me to try to go out on my own and to acknowledge that that's a fundamental part of being human. And I would ret and that I'm going to, you're not helping me with it. So I would rather suffer the wound of not doing that in the first place, rather than have to try to do it and acknowledge that you're fainting me down. So two just go the other direction. Yeah. And it's, it's the same thing where it's like, it looks like a look like what really matters more than anything is the sense of being merged, right? And the sense of being seen. And to, to venture out into the other world means, and to continue to do it over and over again, knowing you're going to be wounded, that puts that it's risk, right? That puts that sense of merged state at risk. And so they just lock it off. And that's how they understand they have to function in relationships in order to preserve the relationship. So aren't they kind of becoming the mother and being mothers everywhere kind of? And so they're as opposed, which is a private sort of endeavor, as opposed to the sort of father world going out into the world, is that kind of what you're putting those as polls, yes, yes, yes, they're prioritizing the feeling of love and the feeling of connection, not in a nine way kind of connection, but a heart and lean into that, forget that the others like deliberately forget that the other stuff even matter. And to the extent that they have to still do that stuff, they're going to be constantly checking back in, right? On the status of the relationship, because they've set it up that you, when you go out in the world, it's synonymous with your displaying relational failure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I mean, there's a lot of proving the power or the, yeah, the the effectiveness of love to themselves sounds like. So does that mean that twos can't like share? Because they can't have someone else going out into the world because that's demonstrating the failure of their relationship share what like share the other person that they're in relationship with. I might have just totally missed what you said, but there's a specialness that they're trying to create. So there's a non sharing aspect, yeah. I mean, that's part of the love because it's not just love, it's special, special, super, super, special love. Right. It's amplified. Right. Well, and the thing for both the eight and two and opposite directions is if you basically think of both of them, like walking around with half a body, yeah, that that remaining half becomes pretty fucking important. It's all possible. It's all they have. And so anything that is at all a perceived threat to that is really going to be blown up much larger than it's they're going to be very sensitive to that and attach, like feel a crisis and feel threat to that. Be more sensitive to it because they're standing on one leg. And then five's just have no legs. And that's part of also why the manipulation and the selfishness and the the hypergiving of the two when really it's about their own image and self-understanding. That's part of what you can capture in the flavor of that because it's really about their own survival as opposed to a secure relationship where you give and take and if it works, it works, if it doesn't, you're sad, it'll be okay. Like all of those sort of like normal things that like I mean none of us have that like sort of hope that you have in a normal relationship. That's not going to be possible if the only way to the two understands life is through and their way to exist is through a feeling of love and extra special merging. Cool. Well, anything else on the two before we go to five? I don't think so. [Music]