Beyond the Benchmark: Embedding DEI in Every Corner of Your Organization

(upbeat music) - Hey, I'm Carmen, the new host of Oysters, New World of Work podcast. And the community lead here at Oyster, and I'm also an organizational and business psychologist. I'm Spanish, but have lived my whole life in the Netherlands, it's Lee and the UK. And now I live in Sunny, Barcelona. I love helping people thrive in the workplace. Part of my role is leading our people builders community, which is a place for people and culture leaders, managers of all kinds and future of work pioneers come to find the connections, answers and tools that they need to navigate this complex world of remote and distributed work. Throughout my career, I've had the chance to connect with so many great leaders. I've heard their wins, their challenges, and helped uncover hidden opportunities. I hope to share some of that knowledge with you on this podcast. Over the next season, we will be diving into topics that are top of mind for today's people leaders. From supporting GenZed in the workplace to the rise of fractional work, you'll hear from leaders who are building forward-thinking, innovative and compassionate workplaces. In 2020 and 2021, a wave of organizations made commitments to diversity, equity and inclusion. Now, four years later, some have made progress while others have fallen short. Today, I'm speaking with Dami Herrera, a DEI consultant with nearly two decades of experience in talent acquisition, operations, leadership and DEI work. As a Latina immigrant, Dami is passionate about creating workplaces that are truly inclusive and equitable. In our conversation, we discussed the current state of DEI as we head into 2025 and Dami's perspective on the future. So, Dami, welcome to New World of Work. I am so excited to have you on board with us today. To start, I would love it if you could introduce yourself, state your name and share a little bit about your career experience so far. - Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited, so high. I am Dany Arredel, my pronouns are she, I'm her in English and Isha in Spanish. And I'm a talent in DEI consultant, trainer and speaker, but you know, I do not want to do the math anymore, but I have about 19 years of experience now in all things talent, talent acquisition, talent operations, and of course, leadership and DEI. And I was born in Buenos Aires, Argentina. I moved to New York about eight years ago. And yeah, I've been doing like my own thing as a consultant for about a year and a half. - Wow, amazing. And I'd love to ask you as well. If you could distill this career to a brief elevator pitch, what would be the personal overarching career mission that you have? - Yeah, so that is an amazing question, and I love that. So I would say that I'm Alatina Immigrant on a mission to help organizations become more intentionally inclusive and equitable. - I love it, you've really got that prepared. That's amazing. - I do, I do, yeah, I try to keep it, you know, like ready, ready to go. - It's so good. I feel like I need to find my own like pitch now. We can do that anytime. I love it, I love it. So, you know, tell me more about, you know, what it is like to be a DEI consultant. Can we double click on that a little bit? And you know, what does a typical day in your life look like? - I, yeah, so I wish I had, you know, like a one answer for you, but I don't. And the reason behind that is every day looks different because what I do is I work with so many different organizations and so many different teams. And every single one of them has, you know, like different needs or different things that they're working on. So some of the things that I could be doing are, for example, I could be hosting a speaking session or a training session or a workshop for an entire company, or maybe just the HR or the talent team. I could join a company as a consultant or as a fractional leader because they might need a little bit help in redoing or rebuilding their processes, either a DEI or talent based with a strong focus on DEI. Or I could be just, you know, like coming in for a very, very short project, like maybe running or hosting, you know, like a safe space type of conversation, like a focus group, if you may, and then go back to the organization and let them know what my findings were. Or something else that I do quite a lot, especially with HR and talent teams is go in and review all of their documents, documentation and processes and policies, and redo them with an equitable focus, right in mind. So yeah, like every day is very, very different and I love that. It sounds really varied, and you must get such a, yeah, such a different view of how many companies, you know, from all sizes, from all trajectories, from different countries I imagine as well, you know, what is actually going on from a DEI perspective? - Yeah, yeah, and that happens a lot in, and one of the things that I love is I do not limit myself to a very specific type of organization. So I work with very, very tiny small organizations where just getting started to global organizations with thousands and thousands of employees, and that gives me, you know, like us, you were saying, a perspective of what's going on, whether you want to focus on and where they are in their journey, and I absolutely love that. - Mm, that's really interesting. And, you know, with that in mind, you've seen so many different examples, I imagine, and what would you say, yeah, I can imagine, you've seen lots of different things. And what would you say are the most common challenges or priorities, even that companies are really focusing on today? You know, we've got a very interesting current workplace climate. And what's, yeah, what's top of mind? - We do, so a couple of things. So the main thing, which I know it is coming across the board for anyone doing, you know, like talent-based type of work, is how difficult funding has become, right? Like we are all working with very, very tight deadlines and funding, so that is one. The other thing that I've seen, and I know that we are going to dive a little bit more into this, like across our conversation today, but is the shift in priorities, especially for anything, DI, or talent-based. And that is huge, right? And the third thing I would say is, unfortunately even today, many, many organizations do not really understand what DEI really is. So many organizations and many teams and many HR professionals still are struggling with understanding what DEI really is and what it can actually do for an organization, right? Like many teams are still thinking, okay, DEI is just, you know, like hosting an event. And, you know, like doing this random programs can completely disconnect into the organization. So those are the main things that I would say. I'm seeing and I'm kind of struggling with as well. - Yeah, I really resonate with what you just said this last point around even knowing what DEI is. I think I've worked with a lot of companies that it's kind of become this like buzz word. And it's like, oh, yeah, we do DEI or we have, you know, one person doing this task, you know, organizing lunch and learns with diverse speakers. Therefore, we, you know, we do DEI. It's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold up. You know, what actually do we mean by DEI? And actually I'd love for you to maybe dive into that a little bit. You know, what do we mean by DEI in a company? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So ideally, right? Like DEI should be fully embedded into the organization. Like the way that I like to explain it, especially to CEOs or people who are completely removed from what, you know, the talent in the HR world, what I like to tell them is, imagine your finance team, right? Like you would never leave finance decisions to someone who is inexperienced in finance and you would never leave those decisions to a committee of volunteers who don't really understand what finance is, right? So that speaks out the same thing with DEI. DEI, yes, of course, we can host events and we can do all of those things. But at the core of it, what we do is we are trying to make the workplace. And when I say the workplace, yes, I mean the culture, but I also mean every single step of every single process, policy and platform that a company is using. We are trying to make them equitable, inclusive, and accessible, right? And the only way to do that is to actually have, you know, a fully funded team who has access to every single thing that the organization does and who has direct access and direct report to the CEO directly. A team that is not part of HR, because one of the responsibilities of DEI is making sure that HR is also equitable and inclusive and accessible, right? So, again, so those are some of the trickiest things that, you know, organizations and sometimes HR teams do not fully grasp or fully understand just yet. God, you're preaching to the choir, absolutely. I think, yeah, oftentimes what you see is HR teams just get, you know, DEI targets. And that's kind of, you know, that's the blanket statement. Yeah, we do DEI as a company, but there's just so much more. And I love what you said about, you know, the processes and the platforms. Like it is embedded in the fabric of a company. Yeah, because at the end of the day, and whenever, specifically, whenever it is embedded into HR, we tend to forget about the equity and the inclusion and the accessibility part, which are the most important parts, honestly. And we tend to focus only on the diversity aspect, right? Yes. And we tend to look at it the other way around. If we are looking at it from an HR point of view, where you should start by hiring diverse talent between a million arc quotes, which, yes, we absolutely should be doing. But that should be our outcome. That should be our goal. Our goal should be to have a diverse organization. And the way we achieve that, the way that we do that is, again, by having an equitable, inclusive, and accessible organization first. So, yeah, that is one of the aspects that sometimes, you know, like, organizations struggle a little bit with. And Danny, you wrote a piece on Medium last year about how to tell whether an organization really committed to diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I'd love to hear from you, you know, what are some of those tell-tale signs that they really might not be committed? Yeah, I love that question. And, you know, honestly, I have forgotten about that article. And of course, my opinion has not changed, but it has expanded a little bit. So I would say that one of the biggest things that I can say is, and we were just talking about this a second ago. But if a company does not have a DEI team, and anything DEI related, like, you know, it's like very vague, it is, those decisions are made by a committee of volunteers. I agree. So there is no structure, there is no understanding, because again, and this is not against those volunteers. Volunteers are usually very passionate. They're usually very, very well-intentioned. They're usually part of those historically excluded groups and communities themselves. And that is incredibly valuable. However, they do not have, or often they do not have, understanding more the knowledge of talent practices, of employment laws, of equity, or accessibility, right? So we are making those decisions based on an opinion, which, again, valuable in some cases, but not as the core, not as the foundation for an organization. So that is one. The other one that I would say is, whenever the executive team, and this happens with or without a DEI team, whenever the executive team or the C level team does not care, right? They do not show up for any of the programming. They do not care to look at the data. They do not care about asking questions about what's happening with DEI. And again, in their minds, DEI is just like, "Yeah, we have sent an event for Hispanic character Chimante, yay, we've done DEI." And the other thing is whenever we do not embed DEI into the hiring process and the promotion process, and what I mean by that is yes, internally, as part of the process, but also in the questions that we ask our candidates, right? We are not asking our candidates what is, you know, the best way that they can show up to work, what are the things that we could be doing? And the same thing, whether promotions are goals, we are not holding our managers accountable, right? So again, holistically, DEI is still this separate thing that is happening with a very passionate and amazing group of human beings, but it does not impact me. It does not impact my performance. It does not impact whether I get a bonus or not. And it doesn't really make any difference at the end of the day. And we see that a lot with companies that have ERG teams or ERG groups or ERGs, which are amazing. I love them. I was an ERG lead for a very, very long time. But then performance reviews come around, and we are not evaluating those valuable members on their valuable input into the culture, and into DEI. And we are not holding those individuals' managers accountable on whether they actually had the opportunity to do that work. So again, we are still seeing DEI as that separate thing that, good if we have it and okay if we tell. - Wow, that's really fascinating. And I'd actually love to double click on the accountability piece, you know? - Yeah. - Have you seen, yeah, tell me more. - Come here more. - Yeah, so one of the things that I've seen working out really well, and of course it really depends on where the company is, part of the journey and all of those things. But whenever we actually embed accountability systems into the way that the company works, one of the easiest way to do it is to embed it in the performance review. - Yeah. - Cycle just to make sure, again, that we are asking every single person, what was their contribution towards DEI? And of course that can mean very different things for different teams and different groups and different levels of seniority. But especially towards leaders and the executive teams. So that is one way. The other way, which I know HR doesn't necessarily love talking about that much, is making sure that we have a very clear code of conduct and that we have a process that is easy for everyone to follow. So if we see, or if we are the receiving end of harassment or microaggressions or macroaggressions as well, there is actually something that we can do without fear of retaliation. And that there is actually something that's going to happen with that report that we established, right? So there are many different ways to create accountability. Some of them, you know, like day to day, smaller things that we can do. But some of them are actually a little bit heavier and they need to be part of how we do talent of that organization to go. - Yeah, I really, I really, really recognize that. And I think a lot of the audience, you know, listening are HR folks, you know, currently undergoing through these challenges. - 100%, and I know it's not easy to do. So I hear that too. - Of course. And, you know, we've spoken about this already, but a company's commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion will obviously have a huge impact on how its employees experience the workplace. We've both felt that in different ways. I'm sure, and many other people feel that every day. And in the last few years, what do you think has changed the most when it comes to companies' willingness to invest time, resources, and effort into this part of the workplace equation? - Yeah, so that is one of those questions that, you know, we might need a full hour of discussion, right? But I'll try and break it down. - Yeah, I'll try to break it down and I'll try to make it as easy as possible. So there are certain companies and certain fields and certain industries that are still very, very much committed in the same way or even more that they were back in 2020. So yes, kudos to them, like they're doing the work. For some other industries and some other organizations that's no longer the case, like pretty much their commitment was very, very much performative back in 2020 and 2021. And, you know, I'm not inventing that information, it's something that we can actually see. I mean, it's not that we need to hire, you know, like a private investigator trying to get their data. It's out there, right? Like we can see it on their websites, we can see it on how they act on social media, we can see it in who was most impacted by layoffs, like that information is out there, we can actually see it. Now, with that said, what is actually impacting all of that? Why is that happening? I do have two or three theories. One of them is obviously, and again, this is very specific at least for now to the United States, you know, the political climate that we are in. Some organizations, of course, they're all led by human beings. Human beings have their own political affiliations. Some of them, you know, let lobby for, you know, their political affiliations. And then at the end of the day, impact whatever is happening within their own teams and their own comments, right? And that actually snowballs, right? Whenever we see a very, very large and famous organization doing X, Y and C either positive or negative, other organizations are gonna follow suit, right? Because the leader on their space is doing that thing. So that is happening. In 100%, we need to acknowledge that. The other thing that is happening, and this is also a conversation that we do have a lot in the DI space, but we don't necessarily have it in the HR space is how we got here. And one of the reasons for that is slowly, but surely back in 2020 and 2021, were making some sort of progress, right? And many different aspects, very slow. Yes, to all of that. But with that, very slow change, something that was happening was the power balance was shifting a little bit, right? I'm pretty sure that our audience can remember back in 2020 and 2021, we were all talking about this as an employee's market. We had like all of those trends, you know, like quiet quitting and all of those things. We were actually focused on people first. We were trying to build people first organizations. Everybody was working from home. We were, you know, like trying to make progress in terms of accessibility and equity. Now, four years later, almost five now, what's happening is that power was shifting a little bit, like a tiny tiny spot of it. Of course, we are not going to assume that it was, you know, like an all new world. It was shifting just a tiny bit from the employers to the employees. And that's not something that CEO, some founders and, you know, people with the power or proximity to power were happy with. So now we are kind of reverting. And the easiest way to see it, to actually see it and something that is tangible for all of us is all of their return to office mandates, right? Back in 2020 and 2021, yes, most companies had to do it because we didn't have any other options. But every company was raving about, this is the future of work. This is the most amazing thing that we've done. We are the most innovating company out there. This is, this is the next thing, right? And employees were happy. Employees were moving to a different state. They were, you know, like evaluating what was useful and helpful for them. Now back in 2024. And of course, this actually started, like, about like two years ago. We started to hear from CEOs and founders about like how we are losing the culture and all of those things. And we've always known that that's not the case. One of the main reasons for return to office mandates, it is actually money. It is, you know, like real-state investments and is trying to revert back that power balance that employees were having a little bit more of. So that is one of the most tangible ways that we can see it. And that is also one of the things that a tar can actually try to push back a little bit on. I know how hard it is to have those conversations with our CEOs, especially in this market, because we do not want to do anything that might jeopardize our position and our job and our role. But it is our responsibility to do that. So yeah, that's one of the things that it's happening. Dani, this is so interesting. It's really making me think about the value of trust and transparency and how that is so intrinsically related to DEI efforts, specifically with equity and inclusivity. I think with those two pillars, it's, you know, just trusting that you will do the work in your home. And, you know, it's very simple. A hundred percent. And that is something that has, you know, it's it's been broken, especially this year. And I mean, it started last year as well with so many layoffs and so many of these companies, you know, like putting in place all of these policies that are completely inequitable. So yeah, that is definitely a part, a huge part of it. Yeah. I think it was 2021. We saw a lot of companies make a lot of commitments and pledges very publicly about, you know, their DEI initiatives or their efforts in order to really tackle systemic inequality. But fast forward, you know, four years, almost five, what would you say is the state of those commitments or those pledges that were made? And how have they held up? Yeah. So this is one of the other questions that, you know, we might be talking about it for hours in general. And I'm going to generalize and you know, you know, like very broad here in general, they haven't held up, especially in a few industries and the industries that I have, you know, the more knowledge of which are, you know, the tech and the advertising industry. And those, unfortunately, and again, there are many, many companies organizations within those industries who are still doing the work and they are actually doing it better than they were in 2020 because they evolved, right? So this, this is not a conversation about those companies, but I'm really talking about those companies where if you go back in time, you can actually do this on social media or their company website. You would see that they were making all those, you know, like huge pledges and they were posting the black squares and they were, you know, explaining how committed they were and they were signing pledges, you know, left and right and they were hiring diverse talent again, between them in our quotes. And now, if you look to what happened in this year, again, just the historically excluded talent that they were so desperate to hire back in 2020, all of that talent or the majority of the talent has now been laid off. And ERGs or BRGs have been either decimated or their leads were also laid off. We are seeing companies who no longer have a DEI team or they shift it from an actual DEI team to a committee, which we were talking about before. We are also seeing impacts and many other aspects of the organization, right? We are seeing HR teams or recruiting teams who are being, you know, laid off at a way larger scale. And we are also seeing an increase of this inequitable policies and processes that we were just talking about as returning to work or return to office, right? So in many, many cases, unfortunately, it hasn't held up and it's not actually gone back like a couple of years, right? For some organizations, we are looking into systems who are, you know, like maybe 2015, 2016, like 2017, or even before that. And in some organizations, some organizations are just like assuming that 2020 never happened, unfortunately, right? So that's the extent that some organizations are taking. But again, some organizations are still extremely committed. They're still doing their work, they're doing their work even better than they were in 2020 because, of course, they had four years ahead of their competition. So they've been doing their work maybe for four years or even before 2020. And those are the companies that you can actually see that are doing way better than the competitors right now. And I'm not only talking about, you know, like the talent and the way that they retain talent, but I'm also talking about the products that they offer or sell or, you know, lay the services that they're putting out there. Just, I think it was last week or the previous week we've seen two very, very large global organizations who put out ads for some of their products that they were selling. And those ads were, and they were really, really bad in terms of they were discriminative, they were, you know, like very, very biased and they were harmful at the end of the day. And those are the things whenever I say that D and I has to be embedded in the organization, that's all to what I'm talking about. That could have been easily avoided if you had someone from the DI team tell you, well, you know what, that actually resembles Blackface. And that is not something that we should be doing in 2024. And so, again, to go back to the original question, unfortunately for many organizations, it hasn't held up. We were talking about the reasons why just a couple of minutes ago, but I do want to make the note that many, many organizations are actually still doing the work even better than they were in 2020. One point that really stood out from what Danny shared is how DEI is often handled very differently from other departments. In many companies, DEI isn't integrated into the core structure. It's run by volunteer committees putting on a few events a month. And while those efforts are valuable, they don't embed DEI into the organization's foundation. You'd never have volunteers run your finance department. So why should DEI be any different? Yeah, and what have you seen in terms of those specific companies perhaps, you know, what long-term sustainable DEI strategies have they been implementing and what have they been prioritizing since 2020? Yeah, so I'm going to give you, you know, like to answer. So I'm going to break this down into the things that actually make DEI work. And then I want to give you like a very specific example so the audience can actually keep it in mind. So the way that you make DEI sustainable and meaningful and work is, again, we were talking about it at the very beginning of our conversation is to actually embed it in the way that the company works. And what I mean by that is break down every single process and policy and communication and platform that you're using. Break down to every single tiny step that you've taken. those processes and let's take a look at where equity and accessibility can actually take place there. Because once we make it part of the operation, once we operationalize it and once we make it part of the system, it is way easier for us to actually do that thing. It is actually harder for us to make mistakes and it actually makes it sustainable, right? Because we are embedding it in the way that we work and we know exactly what is allowed, what it isn't allowed, what is actually impactful, what is an impactful and it also makes it easier to review and revamp whenever needed, right? Because we don't have to start from scratch every single time that we want to update something, right? So that is the way that we make it work. Now, in terms of an example, this actually is very top of mind for me because it happened just like four or five days ago. It is not an organization, it is an event and I'm going to name the organization. I do want to know that they do not pay me to say any of the things that I'm going to share and I've actually talked about it on LinkedIn because I was really, really impressed. So the event, again, this is not an organization, I cannot speak for the things that they actually do internally as a company, what are the things that they do or they don't. But as an event, New York Comic Con, which is an event that has absolutely nothing to do with HR or with DI. They are doing things at a scale that I've never seen, especially within HR or DEI. They host an event that is so equitable and so inclusive that will blow everyone's mind and again, I posted about it only 10 because it is extraordinary what they've been doing and this is not new to them. I mean, I've been attending that event for seven years and they get better with every single year. So a couple of things that they do very, very well and of course they're not perfect. There are many things that they could still improve on but they do many, many things very well. For a person for most, they're code of conduct. It is open and available to anyone and it's not hidden on their website. Yes, you can find it on the website but you can see it on their app and you can see it on the venue all over the place. And with a code of conduct, you actually see their consent code of conduct. And with a consent code of conduct, you actually have an opportunity if you see harassment or if you experience harassment them and I do hope that no one actually has to go through that. But there is an opportunity for you to report that very easily. You can do that from the app which you need to go to the event or you can do it in person. But in top of that, they take accessibility very seriously. They have quiet rooms for you or divergent attendees. They have family rooms for kids with teachers and lay performers to actually keep them entertained. They have prayer rooms. They also have a room to charge mobility aids. So if you use a scooter, there is a room for you to actually go charge it. There is also a cold storage room. So if you're nursing or if your meds need to be refrigerated, there is a space for you to do that. And this is what's top of mind for me. This is probably the next level. It is next level and it's something that you've never seen on any of the many, many HR or DI conferences that you've seen. No, no. Maybe one of all of the things that you mentioned. But just one. Exactly. And they're doing their job. Exactly. So those are the examples that I like to share with my clients for many different reasons. Because some of the organizations or the CEOs or the founders that actually come talk to me, they go like, yeah, but we are not an HR company. And they go like, you have employees, right? And your employees are disabled, their parents, they are part of historically excluded communities. So you need to serve your employees first so they can serve your company and the product that you are creating or selling, right? And I also love giving this example because usually when we talk about DEI in, you know, for the general public, they tend to think, okay, this is an HR thing, right? Like this is this is HR. This is not an HR event. They fully and truly understand who their attendees are, they have a very, very diverse attendee based. It is multi-generational, it is multicultural, it is huge, it is very diverse. So they understand that first and foremost, they need to serve their attendees. Because of course, that's the right thing to do, but it's also, if they don't do that, they actually lose money because people are not going to go to do the event. So that is the same energy that I want HR professionals to bring to companies, right? If you're not providing an equitable, inaccessible workplace, people do not want to work our your company. So we need to keep that in mind. Wow, Danny, I am inspired and in all of this example, truly, it's like, it's almost so simple in a way and so complex, like just like pay attention to who you have in your company and make adjustments and that's it. And that is what it is. And many of those things, of course, like for some of them, you do need to have the funding, but for some of them, you don't. The only thing that you need is the intentionality behind it and the understanding of what makes something equitable, inclusive, inaccessible. That's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so how can an organization, I guess, even get to that point, you know? Is it about getting clear DEI plans or goals in place? Is it about understanding your employees first and foremost or, you know, you, yeah, I'd love to understand a little bit, you know, how do we even get to the point of New York Comic Con? That's like the aspirational goal. Right. That is our aspirational goal right now. So I would say that it's obviously a combination of those things, right. So if you're listening right now and you want to do this, like the very first thing that I want everybody to ask themselves is, okay, do we, as you said, do we actually know our employees? Do we know what is it that they need or what they want? If you don't, that is the very first thing that you need to do. The second thing that you need to do, if you don't have a DEI team, this says your call to action. And if for whatever reason you don't have the resources or the funding to do so, you can still do this work. You don't necessarily, I mean, hopefully you can hire someone full time. That would be the ideal. But if you can't, there are fractional leaders out there that can actually come in, set the foundation for you. So then you can actually run it and whenever you're ready, whenever you have the funding, you can actually hire someone full time. But that is the second thing, this is not something that an HR professional without DEI understanding can actually do. They can't start. They will do their best, which it is way better than nothing, but it's not what we should be doing, right? Like we need to have, in the same way that we have a financial expert running the finances for the company, we need to have a DEI expert doing the same thing. The other thing that I would say is, and I know that this is incredibly hard to do, but we need to pause to review as much as possible. Yeah. Ideally, what the help of someone who is prepared and understands the DEI world. And what I mean by that is, let's assume again that New York Comic Con is, you know, our goal for next year, right? So we need to pause and review, right, like we want to bring this person who is, you know, a professional in DEI, and we want them to actually come in into the office if that is what we want to do. We want to have an office as inclusive as New York Comic Con. We want to have a DEI professional to actually go into our office to review the entire office, to take a look at the plans, to take a look at the facilities that we have, to take a look at the budget that we all have, so we can build a plan around it. And that is the same energy that we need to bring to their processes, other policies, right? Like, how are we attracting talent? What is the language that we are using to talk to our future employees and to the employees that we have right now? What are the questions that we are asking throughout the process? How are we setting up our new employees and our regular employees up to success? Are our managers prepared to have any of these conversations? Do we have reasonable accommodation processes in place or do we, every time that we hear reasonable accommodation as HR professionals, do we want to run in the other direction? So that is how we get there. We get there by first and foremost setting the intention that that is exactly what we want to do. By understanding that that is not something that we can do on our own, that we need a professional to do the work and then to actually of course like passing with you. you in an allocating the resources that we need to do that? In some cases, resources, yes, it is funding. But in some cases, resources is actually time. So it really depends on where the company is. The image that's coming to mind, Dani, is that of building a house. So really, really looking at all of the foundations, checking that everything is sturdy and well-built before starting to fill it with all the decoration and all the furniture. That is what DEI is. That is the best analogy. DEI is the foundation of the house. So if we build a house, and then we find mold on it, and we try to hide it and to park it in any way that we can, the problem will still be there. We need to have a professional to go and to fix that problem. So then we can give build-in and making the house nice. Like that is exactly it. Then we can put our fancy furniture inside. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Exactly. So I'm going to take a little bit of a curveball detour, but earlier this year, SHM made headlines when they dropped the word equity from their diversity and inclusion strategy. That was a big shock, I think, moment for the community, for the industry in general. What was your reaction, personally? And what were you hearing from your network on the potential impact that this is going to have in the years to come as well? This is one of the questions that we might need, not only a full hour, but a full month. Yeah, I feel like I need a whole day with you, Danny. 100% to unravel the impact of this decision. And I love that you ask me this question, because I truly believe that many HR professionals do not truly understand or grasp yet how impactful this is, negatively, right? So I'm going to try to break it down into three different pillars. And hopefully, this will help our audience to actually try to understand them a little bit better. The very first thing that we need to do is understand what equity is, right? Because we've been talking about, yes, we need to make workplaces like equitable and accessible into those things. But what is equity actually? So equity is the tool and the resource that we have to break down systemic barriers on any way, shape, or form. And that can mean the company culture, the tiniest, the process that you have in place to how people are treated outside of the office. We are thinking about racism, big, big systemic issues, right? Yeah, so that is the first thing that we need to keep in mind. The second thing that we need to keep in mind, unfortunately, is soft today. Many HR professionals, and I cannot lay them because this is not their responsibility, because again, I've been saying that DEI is not a responsibility of HR, and I stand by my words. However, this is like basic knowledge that every single person should have. Unfortunately, HR professionals, until today, many of them confuse equity with equality and equality with fairness, right? So whenever we hear about, like, yeah, we are not doing equity anymore, and our minds, we don't really understand what that means. We say, like, OK, that's somebody else's problem. I'm not going to do something with that. So that is the other thing that we want. So with those two foundational ideas, let's break down how impactful this decision is. The very first thing that we want to keep in mind is that Schirm is the leading global organization for all things HR. And that means that they actually train and certified pretty much every single HR professional in the entire world. We are not only talking about the United States, we are talking about global impact. So that's one thing. The second thing that we don't necessarily grasp or keep in mind is as they are the leading organization, every time that, you know, CEO or a founder or a leader, who might not have an HR team or does have an HR team, but you know, doesn't listen to them, needs to make a decision based on how to run their company or how to pay their employees or whether they want to give them, you know, like a limited PTO or not a limited PTO or make a talent decision, that is the organization that they go to. The other thing that we want to keep in mind again, because they're a leading organization, every time that a systemic decision needs to be made in terms of employment laws, that is the organization that politicians and lobbyists look into and you're going to say, "Yeah, the organization that they actually consult." And this is not a secret. We can all go to Google and we can actually see sure they lobby a lot with politicians. This is not a secret. I'm not breaking any news here. We can all look into that. So if we have that leading global organization, say, "You know what? Like equity does not care anymore." That means that from now on, every single HR professional that is being trained and certified by them will not only not understand what equity means, but they will not implement it in the way that they work. So they will start making very inequitable in discriminatory decisions. It means that CEOs and founders and leaders, they are going to listen to this organization and they're going to continue create harm. So remember when we were talking about return to office, that is the base of the harm that we are going to start seeing, right? And the next thing, which is, in my opinion, the most impactful one, that the one that will create the most harm is at the systemic level. Because again, we have full editions and we have lobbyists and we have political parties and the United States and outside of the United States, consulting with this organization and making decisions based on their opinion, based on their foundation, right? So this is what I want HR professionals to understand. I'm not here to tell anyone, be part of this organization or don't be part of this organization because part of the systemic issue is, because of one of the reasons that we were talking about before, many employers require that certification to actually consider candidates to be hired for the company, right? So it is a systemic issue, right? So I cannot tell anyone, you know, like relate to that organization or don't because at the end of the day, like apart from what their decisions are made, for many, many HR professionals, this is a community, this is where they actually meet other professionals, their conferences that they host, like it's still, it's an opportunity opener, right? Like this is where HR professionals get to connect with each other and all of those things. But what I do want everybody to, you know, like pause and review for a moment is, what is the impact? What is the systemic impact that we will see based on this decision? And what do we as individuals want to do with that information? - So yeah, so it is, it is a very, very tricky topic. I am really glad that we are having this conversation, but I do need HR professionals to pause and review and understand how harmful this is at the end of the day. - Absolutely. And like you say, I think it's way more complex than we can even imagine, you know, 'cause it really trickles through the whole system. And for many years to come, it's not just a, you know, next few months kind of issue. No, no, this is a long term, yeah. - It is a long-term impact and it will impact, you know, like employment laws, it'll impact internal policies and processes that company have. Like it is, it is a very, very harmful decision. And you know, it really paints me that many, many HR professionals do not really understand what that means. I think another word as well that has been in and out of the DEI space, sometimes forgotten, sometimes used. I think sometimes companies don't fully understand what it means either is belonging. And it's often left out, I find. And you know, at Oyster, we work with companies, you know, hiring across borders, cultures and languages. And so I'd love your take on, you know, how critical is that belonging piece as well, especially in an environment like this? - So I am one of those professionals who tend to leave belonging out. And let me explain why. I believe that whenever sometimes we talk about okay, we need to think about belonging. Actually, what we are trying to say is, we need to focus in having an equitable organization first. So let me explain where my mind is. Belonging can never exist without equity, without inclusion and without accessible. Right? As a tar professionals or talent professionals, we love to say, yes, please bring your whole self to work. That is, that is what we equate belonging to, right? Like bring your whole self to work. That is not something and I want to be like very, very as clear as I can with this concept. We cannot bring our whole selves to work, especially if we are part of a historically excluded community. If the company is not accessible, inclusive and equitable. Right? It's not safe to do so. It's a risk. Exactly. It is. It is a risk. In some cases, it is, you know, like psychological safety that is in place. And in some cases, it's actually physical safety that is in place. So I want to give everybody a couple of examples so you truly understand what I mean by this. I am not saying that belonging is wrong. I am not saying that that's not what we should focus on. What I'm saying is that belonging should be our desired outcome, but it shouldn't be the one thing that we want to focus on right now. If our organization is not equitable first or not accessible or not inclusive, right? So we cannot say, please bring your whole self to work if we have a lack employee with our natural hair and their manager is going to consider them as a professional between a millionaire quotes, right? That is not belonging. That is performative, right? We cannot say, yeah, please bring your whole self to work if we have maybe someone as you and I who were born on a different country. And we have an accent and our manager or the CEO or colleagues is going to make fun of us. Or we are not going to be awarded the same possibilities or the same projects as some of our other colleagues just because we have an accent and in their minds, we are not capable of having a conversation with a client, right? Or if we have someone on our team who didn't have the privilege of going to college or maybe to an Ivy League colleague and then we are not again, we are not promoting them at the same rate or we are not giving them the opportunity to work on a specific project because we feel that because they didn't have that, you know, that very exclusive opportunity to go to college. That they do not have the capability and the skills to manage that project, right? So those are the things that I need a tar professionals to think about. Yes, belonging is an ideal way with love for every single person in an organization to fully belong and to be their whole selves. As soft today and especially if we are deprioritizing equity, that is not something that we can do. It will not happen, right? We can have employees who are, you know, like content or less content that they, you know, like love coming to work. That is absolutely yes, we should be focusing on that. That is, you know, like a positive and safe company culture, but through belonging cannot exist without equity, inclusion and accessibility. I love that. I think such an important distinction to separate those. Yeah, yeah. And there could be some folks on the call listening that might be thinking that their businesses might be falling behind, you know, hearing everything that we're talking about. And so what advice do you have for them, you know, especially around influencing their own leadership teams to really take D.I. seriously? Oh, my God, just get started. Like that is the only thing that I can tell you all. And I know that yes, sometimes we are dealing with CEOs or founders or leaders who do not really add their standing in that. And I get that. I really do. I was that person. I am that person still as an external consultant, but just get started the longer you wait, the harder it will be for you. And what I mean, the harder it will be for you, I mean, the harder it will be for you to attract talent, to hire talent, to retain talent. And not only that, to actually sell the products or the services that your company produces, it is again, there is a lot of data out there because I know that CEOs love to see, you know, like numbers and data, the business case for a DEI and all of those things. There is a lot of data out there who that explicitly explains that, especially for the younger generations, they want absolutely nothing to do with companies or organizations that are not aligned to their mission and their mission. And the younger generations mission and vision, they are very DEI aligned. If we are not doing that, the harder it will be to actually stay afloat as an actual company to get ahead of our competitors to do whatever it is that we are trying to do. So if getting started as the hardest part, just and it doesn't have to be me, there are many fractional leaders and consultants out there. You can actually book like one hour of their time to do like a micro consulting session, like how do I bring this in front of my CEO, like what are the data points, what is the information that I need to bring start there. And then something that I've seen working for companies that are, you know, like don't really know where to start, like some of the things, like start with your HR team, like manage what you can control, right? Because again, at the end of the day, and we were talking about this before, HR or the talent teams or people at culture, like every company will call it something different, they are responsible for many, if not all, processes and policies that have to do with the talent that the company already has and with the talent that they are trying to hire. So even the CEO doesn't really understand how important the idea is for the entire company, start influencing your own team, train your own team, make sure that the processes and systems that you have in place are affordable, that they are accessible, that the tools that you're using, if you're using tools to interview candidates. Do you know if those tools are accessible, if someone who's blind can actually go through your interview process, if someone who speaks a different language, can they go through your interview process at the same rate and the same way someone who does not need those accommodations? Do your Harry managers know what to ask, are your managers trained on how to manage diverse teams? So if you cannot influence the entire company, start with the things that you can actually control and start there. I think that's a great mantra for folks to take away, manage what you can control. Yeah, and then it will trickle down, you know, that's how you start the role model. Exactly, because then you can absolutely share with your CEO, like, hey, these are the things that we've done and this is the impact, positive or negative, whatever it is, like you can actually show that to your CEO. And it is usual positive, so there is usually a buy-in for you to find there, but you need to start somewhere. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And Danny, I could honestly talk to you all day and all weekend at this point, but I do have one final quick question for you. And we ask this all of our guests on New World of Work, what is the best mistake that you've ever made and why? That is an amazing question. One of the biggest mistakes that I've made and why is, and this is, you know, kind of a longer story, if you may, but I do have to say that moving to the United States with the visa that I had. And I want to give everybody context. So I moved to the US with a non-transparental visa. And what that means is that I couldn't change jobs, right, like my employer owned my visa. And for whatever reason I was going to be laid off, I had to return to my country, like those are the foundations and understanding of how that visa worked. And even though, of course, I'm incredibly grateful to be here and to move down all of those things, the biggest mistake that I've made is actually come with this visa. And the reason behind that is because I was so limited by the things that I could do that I had to become very, very creative in finding ways of doing what I wanted to do within the confinement of the visa that I had. And that is actually how I started my public speaking career, how I started to get press on all of those things, because I had to find a way to do DEI work in an impactful and meaningful way outside of the organization that I was in. And that is actually how I got to be where I am. So that was, you know, like the biggest and happiest mistakes of my life, if you may. Oh, that's very inspiring because it's turning around a situation where it perhaps you felt stuck and something that you couldn't escape. And you found, you found your way if you actually crafted your path. I have to. I literally had to. And, you know, I am very grateful for for that journey. It was, you know, like stressful in all of those things, but I'm incredibly grateful and is the best thing that. that could have ever happened to me. - Hmm. Well, Danny, I can't say thank you enough. Thank you so, so, so much for your time today. I have learned heaps. I'm sure everybody's learned heaps. And I now wanna go to New York Comic Con. (laughing) - I hope that you can make it next year. It's like super fun. - Absolutely. This was such an insightful conversation. Here are my key takeaways. Professionalized D.E.I. Through her work, Danny has found that many organizations with D.E.I. goals don't fully understand what D.E.I. truly entails or why it matters. While volunteer efforts are helpful, D.E.I. initiatives need to be fully integrated into the organization and taken as seriously as any other department. Embed D.E.I. everywhere. D.E.I. shouldn't be siloed. By weaving it into all areas of the organization, companies can avoid costly errors, like problematic advertisements by addressing issues early on. Trust and transparency are essential. Danny emphasized that when organizations aren't transparent about their D.E.I efforts or suddenly roll them back, they risk losing employee trust. And once trust is lost, is challenging to regain. Employees need to feel their company is transparent or they may look elsewhere. (upbeat music) [MUSIC]