Speaker 1Hello everyone. Welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud, a podcast where we get real about addiction and recovery. Today's guest is Sylvia Subirana. She's a clinical psychologist and head of content development at Unconscious Moderation, an app that helps people take control of their drinking and unlock more meaning, happiness, fulfillment in their lives. UM uses practical tools like hypnotherapy, journaling, and supportive community building exercises to guide users through lasting change. Today we explore why moderation works for some and not for others, how hypnotherapy is helping rewire addictive behaviors, the science and stigma behind new recovery tools, the surprising power of journaling and self-discovery, facing fear, breaking old patterns, and learning to live intentionally. Listen, learn, and discover a new approach to changing your relationship with alcohol. Hello, Sylvia. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on. Uh, I really appreciate it. We had a really good conversation, um, before this, and I'm very interested in what you do and what your team does, um, with regards to, you know, not necessarily when I started this podcast, um, alcohol moderation was not an option for me because I tried, I've tried many times and I know a lot of people that have tried and it just doesn't work for me, but I'm, I'm starting to realize that as I get on this journey more and talk to more people, um, that for one, the world doesn't revolve around me and not everybody feels and thinks the same way I do. Uh, but there's different paths up the recovery mountain, right? And one of the paths is through moderation, um, and through journaling and hypnotherapy, which, uh, I'm excited to get into today with you. Uh, but why don't you tell us a little bit about your story, Sylvia, and how you came into this
Speaker 2field and what you guys do? So I'm a clinical psychologist. I love learning about mental health and how, uh, different behaviors affect each person. And, um, it's, it's a very interesting world, uh, for me, like a very interesting field. I'm very passionate about it. And, um, I started, uh, working a little bit, helping people understand, uh, how to have a better relationship with alcohol, um, about a year and a half ago. And it was when I realized that I had a lot of knowledge because I haven't drunk in around six years. I don't have a set date because it was very organic for me. It was six years, six years, six years and a half ago. Um, and I learned a lot during this time that I haven't drunk. So I decided to combine my knowledge in, um, psychology, mental health, and all that with my knowledge in, the field of living life without drinking. I, um, I never had, uh, an addiction. I never had a dependency on alcohol, but it's true that I started drinking because everybody else around me started drinking. And I thought that it was just what I had to do when everybody does. Right. So, um, I realized that I was forcing something that was not working for me because my body was just reacting very, very poorly to it. I had, um, I got infection dealing to that. And like after years of using alcohol, my body was telling me signs of this is not working for you. Um, but I just kept ignoring it because everybody else was drinking. Right. So what was I supposed to do? I never questioned it. And, um, when I finally questioned it and I was like, okay, this is not for me. This is not how I'm supposed to live life. I realized that I was just like completely avoiding what my body was telling me and what my mind was telling me. And it's very, very powerful to learn what your body is telling you and to live a life more aligned with what you actually
Speaker 1want to do. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And, uh, you know, the first step in that is, is noticing what your body is telling you. Right. That's that took me a long time to fathom. Um, just because I was so preoccupied with other things. Right. You know, we were having an interesting conversation, um, off-air. Um, and I was like, okay, so what am I supposed to do? And off-air about you live in, in Barcelona or you're near Barcelona in Spain. Yeah. And, uh, I thought it was really funny because I didn't realize this until I came into recovery that I used to think that everybody partied, everybody did drugs. It was everywhere. It's just what people did. Like you said, right. I, I, I'm going to do it just because other people are doing it. I want to fit in. Um, you were telling me how you don't see any drugs and you don't, you don't see that lifestyle because you're not in it. And I just, I always think that's interesting because I have the same experience now living in downtown Toronto. You know, there's a lot of drugs and a lot of places and parties that I just, I'm not exposed to anymore. Like what, what a miracle, you know, you stop drinking and you find this stop drinking and stop using drugs. And you find this community of people that are just living a different lifestyle. And I can tell you, I haven't seen drugs in quite a while now. Right. I always find that interesting. Um, so, so you're the, um, you know, you work with the unconscious moderation app, right? Um, so you're the, um, you know, you work with the unconscious moderation app, right? Um, so you're the, um, you know, you work with the unconscious moderation app, which is available on the iPhone and play store. Um, why don't you tell us a little bit about what inspired the creation of the unconscious moderation app?
Speaker 2And, uh, yeah, cool. It was, um, the, it was created because, um, well, alcohol is everywhere. We were talking about drugs and everything and drugs, um, because they're not legal, at least in many, many countries in the world, uh, drugs are not legal. Um, you don't really see them as easily as you see alcohol, but alcohol is everywhere is even in workplaces, like people drink to seal deals, some stuff sometimes, you know? So it's just amazing to think that something that is killing us is so, so normalized and everybody's just like even judging you when you're not drinking. Right. So, um, it was a group of, um, a bit of, um, um, like they're psychologists, there's different people that, um, we're starting to, um, well, realize that and little by little more people added on that, on that, um, group where we realized, okay, we need to target this, but there's many, many programs out there, but still, this is a big issue that people don't really know how to address, right? Because yes, less people are drinking right now. And if you look at younger generations, they are not jumping in. Like, for example, as I said before, you just do it because everybody else does. Now there's more and more people that actually question it and decide not to drink. But of course that's happening now with younger generations. I'm in my late twenties and I've had a different, a very different, um, upbringing. Right. So, um, when we, when we wanted to target, like, okay, how can we help people do it? We had a look at different programs and then we realized that. Um, so we were like, okay, we can't find a program that, uh, targets or that helps people rewire their relationship with alcohol. So we were like, okay, we can't find a program that, uh, targets or that helps people rewire their relationship with alcohol. So we were like, okay, we can't find a program that targets or that helps people rewire their relationship with alcohol. So we were like, okay, we can't find a program that targets or that helps people rewire their relationship with alcohol. So we were like, okay, we can't find a program that targets or that helps people rewire their relationship with using hypnotherapy. Right. So we implemented it and then we combined, um, the conscious work because hypnotherapy, it touches the unconscious mind, but then we wanted to also work with the conscious mind. So that's why we also added, uh, journaling and other tools to complement it. And it's been proven that, well, very effective. And, um, obviously the app has was released, um, only like six months ago. So we haven't seen long-term results yet, but, um, so, um, uh, our users have, um, expressed that they're very, very happy with it and they, they actually notice that the changes and they notice that it works.
Speaker 1That's amazing. Yeah. And, you know, I appreciate that because, uh, not everybody that I've come into contact with in addiction and alcoholism is willing to go to meetings or to try, um, they have a bad experience with, with, um, you know, social groups or, or rehab centers. Um, there's, there's a bit of a stigma around it for some people. And so I love apps. I I've always loved apps. I think there's a lot of very useful apps out there, and this is, you know, it's just a great way for people to kind of get involved without that big step into an uncomfortable position. Um, what, what makes unconscious minds approach different from other moderation? I mean, you mentioned the hypnotherapy, but, um, I, I started using the app and it was very user-friendly. Um, you know, it asked a bunch of questions and got some background, but what kind of makes it different that you, that you think, what makes it stand out? Um, I think, well,
Speaker 2we haven't found any other programs that use, um, human therapy and also the, the journaling that we use is very, um, it's very targeted to compliment the, the journey, right? Whereas we've seen other programs that they do use journaling, but it's more generic. When we started, we, we, we had generic questions in journaling, but now little by little, we're we've, we're learning, we're researching more, and then we're making it more specific to, uh, help people actually see, um, better results. right so um i believe that with this unconscious work with hypnotherapy um that makes our program different um people see results a bit faster um again there are many many different things out there many tools that are effective and have been proven effective um but i think that giving even more options to people is very helpful because what might work for me might not work for you so my maybe hypnotherapy works for me but might not work for you right so um given the possibility to people for people to try in different things um i think it's very very um powerful and very um helpful for people to to try out new things and this is definitely a new thing um hypnotherapy in treating um alcohol consumption and we also don't demonize or blame people that decide to moderate instead of quitting completely because we've seen that many programs out there um play with that blame and make you feel bad if you have a relapse or if you have one drink one day and we understand that this is not a linear linear process it's not as easy as just like deciding something and changing it and that's it you are going to have falls you're going to have obstacles in your way and that is completely fine it's part of the process and um actually a load of people say that it's been proven that um when you are implementing a new habit or you're quitting um a substance um you have withdrawal symptoms and you work through these and then they get better and then at one point they get worse and you're like oh my god they are so so strong but it's like the last push of those withdrawal symptoms and then when you cross that path that uh that um wall or that obstacle you're like oh my god that obstacle then you're gonna feel like okay those withdrawal symptoms have just calmed down and they lose their power a lot so um hypnotherapy just helps people go through this journey with um a bit more of a calm state because obviously um these withdrawal symptoms can trigger a lot of anxiety as well and um a lot of like nervousness so hypnotherapy helps you be a bit more calmed down and those withdrawal symptoms also have less power so they are not as uh well as strong and as um well you when you feel them you need to actually act on them because they're painful even but um hypnotherapy helps you just um reduce the the power of these symptoms so they're actually
Speaker 1more manageable yeah i i can agree with that for sure um you know as you were talking i was thinking about the the mental state always precedes the first relapse for me right um and i love what you said about sometimes you just need to like hold on to the steering wheel and get through that last push right um i do understand too that you know for those listening there is a medical component for a lot of people that are drinking a lot um and that's important too and your app actually does go through that right like it does have those disclaimers and you know it's not always safe for people to detox on certain substances especially alcohol without medical assistance and supervision so um i i want to state that that's important as well you know i want to talk about this this idea of fear um because i think fear is the big motivator behind everything in my life um every time i relapsed there was some kind of fear down and you know this latest one that i went through there was this fear of i i called it boredom at the time because i didn't understand that that boredom is actually fear hiding itself and most emotions are are fear right um you know i got to a point where i was like oh my god i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die where i was kind of sitting in my car and life was just kind of ordinarily going along you know there was nothing exciting nothing too sad um and i i came to this realization that i crave chaos to kind of distract myself from this fear and this hating myself and this uncomfortability with where i'm at and i should be here i should be doing this right um and so i kind of i came to the conclusion that it was just this fear of oh my god is this my life and now you know am i gonna just go on the rest of my life without any fun any excitement and i found that no that's not true if i had just pushed through that that that last little bit that last you know obstacle as you say um and reached out for help and and did something about it instead of did things my way uh i think i would have been okay but to your point i needed to go through that again to hit another emotional and spiritual bottom right like i needed to hit another bottom where i was like okay this recovery thing has to be my life today it has to be it's not a hobby for me and this is my story um i can't moderate i can't do any of these things i need to remain completely abstinent and i need to stay connected to people and to my my higher power my god right so this idea of fear like what um why do you think fear of change is so powerful and even though you know it even though we know deep down that it can help us so it's it's very powerful
Speaker 2because we have internal patterns that keep us quote unquote safe which it maybe they're not keeping us safe but our body our mind thinks that we are being protected right because when we were growing up those type of behaviors actually kept us safe because of the situation that we were in right so we learn these patterns that might not be safe for an adult person and they bring you to do different things and for example um consuming alcohol drugs or scrolling on tiktok or watching netflix or many many different things right um because sitting down with our emotions understanding where everything comes from can be very very painful and scary as well because then sometimes it's easier to say okay i don't know anything then i'm not addressing anything right um but actually that's what gets you stuck in the same place without moving and i think that and as you said that fear paralyzes you i think it paralyzes everyone we have this fear of missing out in general of not doing what we're expected to do of not achieving what we are expected to achieve of not have a good not having a good life not doing this not doing that and the pressure is just so so so much pressure and i think that's what gets us stuck in the same place without moving so so strong that i think that pressure that social pressure that we that we have from everyone around us but also from social media there's a lot coming from there that we constantly see people having their best lives and then you compare your life and then you're like my life is very blunt it's very boring right because look at these people having the best lives ever so i think there's so many things that actually um interfere in that and then that pressure creates that fear of am i living my life correctly so when that fear is very very strong it just paralyzes you and you are not able to do anything about it because it's so strong that you don't know where to start and there's also that so there's that and then there's the what i was talking about before the the patterns and all that we feel like that what we've been doing till now is is our safe space or our safe space for us to be able to be able to be able to it's our normality right it's something that we can control and when we start creating shifts or um having new habits or stop or reducing or completely stopping to um have some some behaviors or some um drugs or alcohol like other substances um we don't know what's coming on the other side we don't understand well like our mind cannot understand that it can be actually better we are um stuck in this okay i don't know what's going on what's going to happen in i don't know six months a year five years from now but i know what's happening right now and i know that the situation right now i can control it but again the situation right now can be absolutely um destroying you but you have that feeling of control and again um we are always looking for uh things that we can hate as humans uncertainty and things that we cannot control and they are out of our decision and again we have like in our lives there's so little that we can actually control we think that we have more um tools that we actually have life just goes on right and you have to adapt to it and understand that life changes constantly we we cannot stay in the same state only because of fear right and so it's actually what you're not changing you're choosing you're actually choosing not to change so actually you're actually um like little by little your life will change and then you will actually adapt those behaviors to those changes right so getting stuck into that um i don't want to change i just want my life to be exactly how it is um it's actually not going to happen because it cannot happen life is changing constantly
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. I'm happy you you mentioned the the illusion of control because you know as it says as i've heard so many times before um the the great illusion that i can drink like other people um you know i'll try that a million times till sunday until i can figure it out because you're right it's like there's so much in the world i can't control what do you mean i can't control my drinking and the way i feel like there's already all this other stuff and then i come home and i have to feel this way like that's so uncomfortable to me right um i i think that's that's especially true and i've i've proven that in my life so many times right i'm really interested in this hypnotherapy process can you kind of explain a little bit more what what it is and like what the app kind of does what does
Speaker 2it look like so um in the app we do 15 minutes a day of hypnotherapy it's um an audio that you just um put some headphones on and you listen to um and then so it's 30 minutes a day and 15 minutes of hypnotherapy and then 15 minutes of conscious work um that hypnotherapy um it's very similar to a relaxation or meditation and a lot of people have actually listened to those before because they're very um very very famous and very common uh for people to actually listen to so it's not um that weird or that different from other things that people have tried um and i actually um get this asked a lot like um is it powerful is it is it um like in a bad way is it dangerous is are there any side effects of hypnotherapy because we've seen hypnosis in movies and in theaters and obviously that was just for the show right it's not how it works in in therapy or in like a clinical um like area right field um so basically what that um audio is is you put those headphones in and then you get into a deep state of relaxation where all your worries and all that conscious noise just dials down its intensity but you are still conscious you're still aware of everything that's happening which is something that a lot of people feel like is it gonna knock me out and then i'm not gonna be able to remember what happened no you are conscious all the time and you understand and listen to everything um but basically the difference between hypnotherapy and hypnotherapy is that you are conscious all the time and you understand and listen to everything and uh meditation or relaxation is that hypnotherapy opens your mind to suggestions right so um for example a lot of people have a drink when they're stressed it's a very very common thing to say okay i've had a very um stressful day at work and my mind just automatically thinks of having a glass of wine or two or a whole bottle it really depends on the person um so that connection between stress and alcohol is pretty much automatic and your mind or all of our minds have so many things to do in our bodies like we they need to keep us alive right and there's so many things that we do that our body does that we don't think about like breathing like um every internal organ has its own thing to do and we don't realize we don't think we don't think about it right so the brains our brains want to um optimize energy so they can actually save part of that energy to um send to those organs right um so when we do something repeatedly like for example i'm stressed then i drink a glass of wine it's automatic like the the brain creates a path between neurons between brain cells that is very reinforced because the brain doesn't understand the difference between what's good for you what's bad for you it only understands the difference between something that you do very frequently and something that you don't do frequently so when it reinforces that path between neurons um that is a connection that becomes automatic so every time that you're going to be stressed you're going to be thinking of alcohol straight away because that is a path that is very very reinforced right so what hypnotherapy does is open the mind to different paths between neurons so little by little that path that was created that um i'm stressed then i'm gonna have a glass of wine loses its power and then other paths other paths can have more and more power little by little right so in the end when you're stressed you're gonna see many options instead of just seeing one like got that glass of wine you're gonna see options like calling a friend or going for a walk or baking a cake or doing anything you want and anything that you enjoy doing because your mind broadens and sees more than actually alcohol as the only solution so that's why i think it's important to have a glass of wine that's why it's very it's very helpful because people see this shift um quite um fast obviously you're not going to see it on the first day but after 10 days people start seeing that shift and that those um well those options right and um it's easier for them to actually choose something else
Speaker 1rather than alcohol yeah wow i love that um it's it's kind of like this knee-jerk reaction that uh i'm gonna drink it's so true uh you don't even think about it and and hence the unconscious part of of the brain and so it's just slowly rewiring these pathways i i think that that you explained that very well thank you um this this kind of area of of therapy is not it's not studied entirely yet right so we don't really know there's not a lot of science behind it there's not a lot of data in regards to hypnotherapy and alcohol but you were mentioning to me that there there is some
Speaker 2signs out there right now so um there's it's true that there's not a lot of studies that have actually um linked hypnotherapy with um treating alcohol like alcoholism or um helping people reduce the alcohol intake but um hypnotherapy has been linked to many um addiction um recovery like pathways or um for treating other other symptoms like for example anxiety as i was saying before like anxiety ibs um it was very very common to treat um like tobacco addiction um some years ago so even though there's not many um data or that there's some data that is coming out now like some studies that are coming out now between like showing the link between um hypnotherapy and alcoholism um the these studies that show the the um success in hypnotherapy are more specific um considering addictions in general but in the end um of course each drug or each substance that you take or each behavior that you do is different but your brain sort of reacts in a very similar way so what works for one will work for the other generally um like something like hypnotherapy will work for both because um your brain sort of gets attached to that and maybe i like for example me as a person that um drinks frequently um when i'm stressed as i said before the example that i'm saying that i was saying before right when i'm stressed i drink but then maybe you when you're stressed you gamble or when you're stressed you smoke so um those connections that i was talking about before um are different in each person they have a different behavior a different consequence but they all come from a very similar place so um that's why when when you search um about like hypnotherapy and how can it how it can help different addictions there's so many um studies in many many different addictions and there's not many in alcoholism but i found a study done in norway that showed that um people that did hypnotherapy sessions um one like when treated in alcoholism one year after and 80 of them had been completely abstinent um for that whole year so 80 is a very very large uh number of people right so um i think it's it's very effective and it can be very very um helpful and then in in different um addictions in general or other behaviors um it's been proven obviously it's very very broad but between 50 and 80 of of um like abstinence or um change in behavior or all that as well so i think it's a very very powerful tool that it's worth considering
Speaker 1yeah that's that's a great number i mean um you know having been to treatment they always tell us that there's this kind of standing statistic of you know one in ten people will will die from or will make it sorry one in ten people will will make it from this uh from this disease there's like a 10 chance right so i mean that's that's really promising all right journaling is a big part of my recovery um and i never really wanted to do it it wasn't one of those things where i was like you know i'm gonna journal every day most things that i practice in my life today to recover are something that came before from somebody before me right something that was recommended to me either by a therapist or by a fellow alcoholic and addict um and so for me what i found is uh you know i had a hard time starting like you you mentioned before there's this like there's this hurdle it's like and i can say the same thing about going to the gym right or doing anything healthy i just sometimes i just need to get there because there's this fear of leaving my comfortable home and going into this uncomfortable state right and i find that that happened with journaling too it's like well where do i start i don't know what to do what what kind of you know what's the point so where do you kind of tell people to start
Speaker 2where does the app prompt you how does it prompt you so um the the way that we work with journaling in the app is um to complement that hypnotherapy part that i was um talking about and um before the the hypnotherapy that we offered was general which is still helpful but it was more general like um so people could understand themselves like for example what do you do when you're angry or how do you deal with this type of um situation or um what are three things that you're grateful um for today right and different things like that which again many many programs out there do these questions or ask these questions to to um their users and it works like they're very effective but we wanted to make it more um more targeted to actually helping the people understand themselves better and learning about their patterns because when you know about your parents when you know about your parents when you know about your parents when you know about your partner you're like 50 um there like you have gained so much once you know um what's going on your your halfway of the path is done like what when you know it and accept it because knowing and accepting it can not come uh together sometimes because some people know it but then they don't um they don't accept it as part of their reality right um so what what we do with with our journaling is we we um take people into like a path of imagination like different adventures that we call it and then um they we put them into a different situation like um situations obviously all imaginary that they have to to think of how they would react what would they do um and different things and all these um situations later on have uh well they make sense because in the end they will learn about their patterns they will learn about how they're going to live their life they will learn about how they make decisions why they choose certain things because each week it sort of is like a different adventure and at the end of the week you understand a little a little bit more why you chose what you chose and there's an explanation of everything so again there's no right or wrong because everyone chooses their own thing right and and everything is is well everything is good you don't need to um be thinking okay i should choose this but my mind is telling me to choose the other thing right no everything is fine everything is um good you just choose whatever your mind tells you to do right and again when you learn about these patterns and how you how you process and all that emotion and what triggers different things then you can actually start doing those changes because when once you know it knowledge is power once you know it then you can actually address it you cannot address what you don't know i i couldn't agree more um
Speaker 1and you know i one thing that i learned from journaling and this this took some time right it didn't happen right away but i was in treatment this last time and i just journaled every day because they told me to and just whatever was on my mind i came to this this conclusion and it was pretty revolution like revelatory for me it was a pretty profound moment and this has happened a few times where i've come i came to this realization that um you know what i told you about the chaos thing i came to that realization in journaling right that i crave this kind of chaotic state in my life with drugs and alcohol to escape feeling me and and you know having to look at myself in the mirror and and atone for all the kind of bad things that i did right uh get through this guilt and shame was the underlying feeling you know i felt bad about all the people i hurt felt bad about hurting myself i felt bad about relapsing after eight years clean and sober um and so journaling i was able to forgive myself for that but i also was able to realize why i choose to pick up drugs and alcohol and it was because i don't like this kind of mundane state i i i need this sort of up and down crazy life to feel okay in my own skin and then the other thing too that i was going to mention that i noticed too was um so in my act of addiction i like to hang out with and i've heard that this this is pretty universal with people like me we kind of choose these uh i hate using this this term but you know in one of the literatures that i read it it calls it lower companions right these these sort of people that are using more than i am uh they're they're partying harder than i am they're using harder drugs than i am they're drinking more than i am and i i always like to hang out with these people i've realized because i feel better about myself right and i'm well at least i'm not doing heroin or at least i'm not drinking you know 10 bottles a day uh i'm not that bad you know it's okay buddy like you're you're not that bad you can get and it was just this justification to kind of keep going and live the life that i was living or they're stealing way more than i am so at least i'm not stealing from the government right and i came to those conclusions all through journaling and it was a pretty you know euphoric eureka moment for me um and that's why i continue to do it today and and again i don't have these moments every day where i'm like oh my god it all makes sense now like that's not the case right but through time and effort i have come to these realizations and it's a beautiful thing because now like you said i i'm 50 of the way there i've realized it well what are you going to do about it right just because you realize something doesn't mean it's going to change i have to do something about it so when i go to the state of boredom or i'm not enough life's not enough i should be making more money i should be more successful i should be helping more people um i should be more sober even i should have more clean time right i i have these real these thoughts that now i can kind of say to myself oh i'm doing that thing again and i just kind of laugh about it i'm like i'm doing that my brain is doing that thing again where it wants to be comfortable and it doesn't want to embrace pain right so i can just embrace the pain now and be like oh yeah it's gonna be okay you're gonna get through this and then i always say is like just get through the day just get through the hour and like you said it's just getting through those hurdles because that delayed gratification over the instant gratification is so much better in my experience right that just get through today because tomorrow will be different and it's always true tomorrow will be different just get to bed sober clean you know and and tomorrow will be different yeah and what i always like to say is that we think
Speaker 2that we see the world objectively like uh life is as it is right and that is completely wrong we don't see the world as it is we see the world as we are and as we see so if you surround yourself by people that do more drugs than you or drink more than you then you have that um sense of okay um i'm not as bad as them so i am okay right but then you're comparing yourself to something that you see very very frequently so your mind understands that that is your normality quote unquote right your baseline yeah exactly but um if you lived a different life and then you don't see those people then you would be like your comparison would be like you are the one that is having the most drugs compared to these these uh group of people right like these people so it is all about perspective and it's all about what you see what you are exposed to so it's all about perspective and it's all about what you see what you are exposed to so so i think that when people understand that and the subjectivity of the way that we live the world there in our lives it's i think it something clicks at least it clicked for me because then i was like okay there's no right or wrong and like it's not that um static right like this is right this is wrong exactly it's not there's so so many colors in between and and maybe what might be right for me might not be right for another person so i have to choose what's right for me and to know that i have to know myself and i have to self-reflect and take my time to sit down and understand where my emotions are coming from and what i do to um to tackle them and to understand them because it's so so common in today's world to numb the emotions and it doesn't need to be with uh like alcohol or drugs or other substances or like behaviors like gambling and stuff like that a lot of people do it with for example chocolate which is obviously very accessible in any supermarket or with as i was saying before scrolling on social media and then we see people that are using their phones for 10 hours a day and that is a lot right so everyone chooses their behavior differently or everyone has their escape at a different scape right and understanding why you're doing that and what triggers that moment of or that need of escaping is as you said before is is it's a eureka moment because then you can actually um target that and work on that yeah i love that you are who you
Speaker 1surround yourself with right and i try to live by that today um you know my friend group in my circle today are it doesn't matter what they have material wise i look for people that are working on themselves every day you know people that are constantly doing this inner work that's those are the people i want to be around because that's what i need to do instead of looking externally i need a car i need a boat i need a new you know um job i i have to look internally and and find the kind of joy and peace that way i love that it's so true relapse is uh unfortunately a part of recovery um it's been in a part of my life you know slips relapse i want to you know say i i learned the difference between a slip and a relapse a slip is kind of when you're you have like that one drink or that one pill or that one line and uh you catch it right away and you jump back into recovery right the relapse is when you kind of fully indulge um and i i never i don't i I don't think I ever really had many slips. Mine were full-blown relapses because I never caught them and corrected them. And I was too far gone, right? This last time it took me four months to try and get back in. And those were four months of hell. You know, it's a progressive disease. It always gets worse for me. I always pick up where I left off and then it just gets way worse. I'm doing new drugs. I'm hanging out with, you know, people I shouldn't be hanging out with. I'm going to nightclubs and bars that I have no business being at. How does the app kind of help users keep going if they have a slip?
Speaker 2So as I was saying before, we never blame anybody. We never demonize alcohol or any other substance. We always understand that it's part of the process and we encourage people to keep going. It's okay if you have a slip. It's okay if you have a drink or like this app is targeted in alcohol, but it's okay if you have a slip with any other substance or behavior. It's okay if you drink because it's part of the process. You're going to have your ups and downs and understanding them and giving space to them is also part of your growth and the journey because it cannot be as easy as just like quitting or deciding to reduce alcohol and never feeling that craving or that need to have a slip or worse, right? Going deeper into it. So the way that we do it is, again, reinforcing that they're doing a great job. Because if the program is 90 days long, but the first 30 days is completely like no alcohol at all. But if you have alcohol during those 30 days, we say that's completely fine. Keep going. Because by day 30, you will have drunk way less than what you drank the month before. Because if you had one, two, three, four drinks in this month compared to the month before where maybe you had 20, or 15, or even like 10, that is progress. That is something that is changing in your mind. You are actually shifting. And if you keep working on it, you are going to actually get somewhere, right? If you give up when you have one drink, then you're not doing any progress, right? So that's why we're very open to people having these moments. Of course, the less you drink, the better, right? But... We're never going to blame anybody or make anybody feel like they failed when they had one drink, when maybe they could not... Like they could not have... Like give the space to that urge or that craving that they were having, right? Because sometimes, as I said before, they're very powerful. And again, during... So the program is 90 days and some people choose to not drink during all those 90 days. So the program sort of... It looks the same all those three months. But then on day 30, they can choose if they want to moderate as well. So we give tools to people so they can understand, again, what triggers their urge to drink, when they're emotional straight when they drink. And we also keep like a drink tracker so they can be very aware of the amount of alcohol that they have or that they want to have, right? So again, knowledge is power. So when you know your... Like the why, when you know your triggers, when you know your emotional state and when you know all these things, then you can actually understand better your use of alcohol and yourself so then you can actually create change, right? But as I always say, moderation is way more difficult than going completely dry. I always think that moderating... When you've had... When you've used alcohol more, when you go to moderating, you always have to be very on top of it and you always have to revise yourself.
Speaker 1It's stressful, yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, because I always tell people like, I don't know how you do it because for me, it's easy. It's no alcohol. Okay, it's out of the picture. And when you don't have the option, it's your mental load just like calms down. It reduces by half. But then when someone is choosing to moderate, they always need to be on top of what they're doing. Am I drinking? Am I not going to drink today? Why am I drinking today? How many drinks will I have? And you always have to be like balancing it. Yeah.
Speaker 1Well, yeah, it's so true. Or I'm going to say I have a, you know, I have a social engagement tonight, so I'm going to save my two drinks for tonight. I just got to get through to the, you know, that social party. And then you have three and you're like, oh, I was only supposed to have two. And it's so true. It's so much easier just to call it off completely. I love that 30-day idea too because I'm just thinking about that. Like if you can do, if you can control your drinking and 30 days will tell you a lot about yourself, a lot. If you try to, if you focus on your drinking in 30 days, you're going to learn a lot about yourself, right? Wow. I didn't realize that I had one after work every day. You know, I didn't realize that I had five before noon even. I didn't even realize, you know? And so I love that. I think 30 days is a really good indicator of, hey, maybe I want to stop doing this altogether or maybe I can control it and moderate that. So it's a, it's a great test, you know, living. I want to talk about living intentionally. What, you know, what does living intentionally mean to you today?
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Speaker 2For me is, um, understanding what I want to do with my life and how I want to spend the time that I'm in this earth, right? Because I feel like everyone lives on autopilot and we don't, we don't think that we're going to die someday, but the truth is we don't even know if we're going to be here tomorrow. Right? So I, I'm, I'm very, um, like I always go back to live in autopilot and I keep bringing myself back to this thought of no. Okay. How do you want to live life? Um, what do you want to spend time doing and what you don't want to spend time doing? Because sometimes I found myself forcing myself to do stuff that I didn't want to do or in situations where I didn't want to be in or, or stay in longer somewhere where I was, I would have been better just leaving. I don't know, three hours before I left. Right. So, um, to do that, of course it's, I need to revise myself constantly and understand where my priorities are at the moment, because obviously these priorities change the, the older that I get. Right. So, um, for me, living intentionally is given space to understand, uh, how I want to spend my time, my limited time on a.
Speaker 1Yeah. Time is, is the most valuable thing. You know, I always say that. And, uh, it, it really is the only thing that we got and the only thing that could be taken away in a moment, you know, we never know. Uh, that's why this one day at a time thing is so powerful. It's like, I don't know if I'm going to be here tomorrow, like you said. Um, so how am I going to live my best life today? And my, my best life is different than your best life is different than my wife's best life. It's, it's different for everybody. And so that's why it's important. To do this self-discovery Sylvia, if there's, you know, there's someone out there listening that, uh, doesn't know if they want to stop, but their, their life is, they're starting to have consequences as a result of drinking, right. Um, losing the job, losing relationships for me, uh, you know, losing my sanity, right. Like losing my goals, uh, my aspirations, all these things were just crumbling in on me. Uh, finances were through the roof. What's one small thing that anybody can do today.
Speaker 2Something that is, um, accessible, maybe not easy, but accessible, very accessible is when you're going to pour yourself a drink, or when you're going to ask that you're going to a bar to ask for another drink, or when you're in a situation where you're actually going to have another glass of wine or another beer or another, whatever you're having, ask yourself, like stop and ask yourself why do I actually want this? Or is it because I don't want this? Or is it because, I'm stressed? Is it because I am before pre-pressure because I'm everyone else around me is drunk or is it because I am trying to numb something that is worrying me? Right. And, um, I said that it's accessible, but not easy because it's sometimes it's very, very painful to understand where all, where this is coming from. Right. But I think that when people understand their wise, again, they can actually start shifting their, their behaviors, right. And, and understanding more how they want to live life. So for me, the first step is always stopping and understanding where this is coming from. And again, you might not know the first, I don't know, five, 10 times. You might not know, because if you have never taken the time to understand yourself, it's something very new, right? So given the time to work on it will grow, will come with time, but you actually need to understand, and all like ask yourself, why frequently so then you can actually get to a response that can actually help you I love that
Speaker 1you know I always ask myself what is my motive here you know what is my motive what am I trying to achieve am I trying to fit in like you said or can I actually just not stop because of said emotion then I'm stressed I think that that's a very practical tip that anybody can try and it's it's not easy like you said because when you're in it sometimes ah what's the point but if you build that muscle over time it's like going to the gym you know it's it's really you're gonna suck at first at when you're lifting weights anything new right paddleboarding was one for me I got into paddleboarding and you know I sucked at first but I over time you build that muscle you keep doing it over and over again and then hopefully you come to a point of realization where this isn't serving me you know this isn't benefiting me maybe I can do something else instead like go for a walk or or try a new hobby or connect with a friend or something like that
Speaker 2friend like you said pick up the phone Sylvia I really sorry and definitely um the last thing I was going to say is and sometimes we think that the reason behind um our urge to drink is very very deep like for example that emotion or trying to fit in and all this but I realized obviously during these these six years that I've been um navigating this um I realized that sometimes now that for example we're approaching um a hot like hot summer days and all that um I remember I just was craving something refreshing so I would be like I really crave like a fresh a refreshing cocktail or like a cold beer or something like that and then I was like what if I just have the like I don't know something different that is also refreshing and then I realized that that's what I was craving I was craving that nice drink that was a bit like I don't know a bit different from water or like a soda right but would actually give me that um I don't know that like freshness right in a hot summer day so it doesn't need to be a very deep uh reasoning it can be as easy as you just want something fresh or you just want something sweet or any anything like that so um sometimes you don't need to go uh that deep but the more you ask yourself why the more reasons you'll see and then the the more you understand what triggers uh those urges right that's a great point that is a phenomenal
Speaker 1point uh I come to a realization too that yeah I just like soda water you know this sparkling water and that that oftentimes I'm just thirsty and I just want you know a refreshing drink I love that it's so true Sylvia thank you so much for your time a time is a valuable thing I think uh what you're doing is is a beautiful and important journey you know you've you've given us a lot of practical helpful tips that we can implement in our lives and um where can we find you and
Speaker 2moderation in App Store or in Google Play, they will find it. And if they have more questions about how the program works, who's behind it and all this, I always suggest having a look at the website, which is um.app. So um.app. Everything is explained there. There's so much information that is very, very relevant. And if anybody has any question that is not responded in the website, there's also a contact form that they can send any questions that they have, I will be happy to respond. We're also on on social media, like Instagram. So yeah, I encourage everyone to just
Speaker 1feel free and have a look. Love it. Thank you so much. I appreciate your, your words of, you know, experience, strength and hope. And there is another solution, you know, there is another way. So thank you for what you do. And until next time, I appreciate you. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 4Thanks for listening. Please help us grow the channel and like, share and subscribe for more content. The discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for informational and motivational purposes only. This content is not a substitute for professional medical advice, addiction treatment or therapy. If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction, please consult a licensed physician, addiction specialist or mental health professional. You are no longer alone. If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction, addiction, or mental health problems, please consult a licensed physician, addiction specialist or mental health professional.
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