Bethany Joy Lenz: One Tree Hill & Escaping a Cult (FBF)

(dramatic music) - What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy. - Bethany Joy Lens, welcome to Call Her Daddy. - Thank you. - Your book, Dinner for Vampires, comes out this week. Congratulations, how are you feeling? - I feel proud of it. - Mm-hmm. - You know, people often ask me, "Are you excited?" And I'm thinking, "Excited is not the right adjective, because it's not a story that I was ever really dying to tell. It's not like I thought, "Oh, this is great material." (laughing) I just lived through something traumatic, and you go through therapy, and you wanna just work through it in your private life. But that became part of the healing was recognizing how relatable my story was to so many other people who hadn't been in something as dramatic, as a cult. And yet somehow I was finding myself in conversations with so many women in particular, but so many people who had found themselves in this kind of dynamic, relationally. And the more I had that conversation, the more that brought healing to me, and then when the opportunity for writing a book came up, it just felt like, this is the right thing to do. It's also what good are our mistakes if we can't. It's honestly one of the things I love about you and listening to your show is that there's this sense of like an open mess. Like, and it's, to please don't take that the wrong way, but it's actually really wonderful and really comforting to see somebody just living in this space of, I don't know, and also look at this stupid decision I made, and look at this weird mistake that I made, and oh, we're not alone. It were not alone, and I really appreciate you coming today because I think you're right in talking about there is something that you've gone through that maybe at face value to people, or like I cannot relate to being in a cult, but the themes that you experience throughout this moment in your life are so relatable and are these very tangible experiences at so many women listening, or you'd be like, yup, yup, I've been there. So we're gonna get into it. I mean, I just have to, though, say, like, and I was saying it two downstairs, the book is incredible, and it's so fascinating because you do talk about your childhood and your relationship with your parents and one tree hill, and oh, by the way, for 10 years, you were in this cult, and I think it's important to kind of go back to what led you to this moment, and then we're gonna kind of go all through it, but let's get into it. How would you describe yourself as a kid? - I was, I had a huge imagination. I was lonely. I had a really, I guess it was kind of like an old soul where I think I always had this sense of this too shall pass, this moment is not the biggest thing ever, and that helped me a lot in the feeling alone, feeling the solitude. I don't know why I seemed to always understand that as a kid, but yeah, so there was this comfort in knowing that there was something bigger out there, another was another day coming, there was hope, and it's okay to just be alone, and I learned to enjoy my own company, which was a huge gift as well. - That is a gift. - Yeah. - Why would you say you were lonely? - I was an only child, and my parents were wonderful, but very young and doing the best that they could at their age, we had addiction in the family, we had co-dependence, there were so many dynamics at play, and everybody was just trying to stay afloat. And we moved a lot, so it was hard to maintain friendships. - When you looked at your parents relationship growing up, like what did their relationship feel like to you? Was it very loving, was it toxic, was it, what was it like? - It was tense, it was very tense. I think they really loved each other, and as you, as so many of us discover that those feelings of love are often fleeting, and you have to build on something more, and they both had a deep connection to their faith, and really wanted to build their marriage on that, but they grew up in that, they raised me, and they had come out of that 80s movement of evangelicalism that was so, it promised so many things, without giving you a foundation of a real relationship, moment to moment with God, there was no sense of, in terms of my experience with that movement, which I grew up in, there wasn't a lot of space to be a mess, and to make mistakes, and to just like figure it out day by day, it was a lot of, here are the rules that you need to live by, and when you accomplish all these rules, then you will be happy, and they believed it as well, and then discovered, oh, following all the rules all the time isn't actually working, and then the marriage became really tense, because of that and other factors. How do you think you're watching your parents dynamic, shaped your view on love and marriage? - Wow, what a great question. - Damn, I don't know, I was going to therapy at the panel, Alex, were my glasses for you? - Okay. - My, I think that, I think that it became an unsafe place emotionally, because I didn't know what they were dealing with, you're too young to understand the inner dynamics of a grown relationship, and so it became a mystery to me, and it was like, I don't want this dynamic, the sort of, one person's really calm, one person's really hyper, and they're constantly at each other's throats, and there's so many problems, and it just was like, this is, they're figuring so much out, I better just kind of raise myself. And then, then going into later in my life, as I started, I got so boy crazy, because then you're looking for something to fill those holes, and I don't know what it did to my view of relationships, other than to know that I didn't really have anything modeled for me that I could look at and be like, that's what I want, how do I do it? So I probably spent a lot of time fishing for answers, and all the wrong places, I mean, clearly. (laughs) But it is helpful to hear you just kind of like, talk about the foundation of what you were like, living in this house, and just watching your parents, and knowing you wanted something different, but not knowing exactly what it was, because I think understanding that is important to what we're about to talk about, and how you got to where you got to. - Yeah, I just, I wanted to place to belong, it was really hard to feel like I belonged anywhere, except the theater, which was, you know, that's why I went into that field, but yeah, there was a lot of that, there was a lot of, my parents trying to protect me, and which ended up being gaslighting without them knowing it, a lot of, hey, what's going on, is everything okay? And I'm met with, yeah, everything's fine. And which a lot of us do with our kids, right? - You want to protect your kids. - Right, right. - So it's so natural to go, no, no, everything's fine, everything's okay, and you don't realize you're denying the child's reality. You're not acknowledging, yeah, something's wrong, we're not having a good day, but it will be okay. - Right, you're constantly trying to understand, you can feel it, like you know when something's off, like kids are so intuitive. And then you're asking your parents, like, please let me in on what's happening in our family dynamic, and then not allowing you to know, that also probably created a false sense of reality of like you're then having to like, finish the sentence for yourself, 'cause I know it's not okay, but they won't tell me, so I guess I'll just, again, be alone, go into my room, and create whatever my narrative is gonna be for myself, because that's all you can do. - Yeah, and actually what it did was, oh, I must be wrong. Like, I feel, it's like something's wrong, I feel like something's off, I can feel that in my gut, but everyone is telling me that everything's okay. So my gut must be off. So when you start at a young age to believe, my gut is off, I can't trust myself, I can't trust my own instincts, it makes it a lot easier when you get older for people to take advantage of you. - Let's talk about the Big House family cult. So you were in your early 20s, then you moved to LA, you're pursuing acting. How did you end up meeting this group? - Yeah, so I was in LA, I went with a girlfriend to her Saturday night Bible study that she was going to. It was very benign. It was the same kind of Bible study I'd been going to, having been raised in the Western Evangelical Church. It was super common. Wednesday night Saturday night meetings, you just show up and it's like an addition to church. It's a way of sort of keeping the church going beyond Sunday. And there's music and food and everybody talks and gets vulnerable and it felt very, very normal to me. So yeah, at first it was just nothing to be suspicious about. - And what were you feeling like you were wanting? 'Cause once your friend brought you, then you kept going and you're like, what were you looking for when you were kind of like starting to join this group? - I was looking for a place to belong still. I think that was the constant search. Where do I fit? Where do I belong? And I had moved here. I'd lived in New York before then and I loved New York. It felt like home was in Jersey for eight years and then Manhattan and I felt like a New Yorker and I loved the creativity there and the pulse and it just felt so great. And moving to LA, everything's really spread out. And community was harder to find. So I was in need of community. - Which I think is a really normal thing. I have so many women right into me being like, I move to New City, I don't know how to make friends and I think a huge thing that people look for are groups to join. Like can I join? - Soul cycle. - So right. Like we're going biking every, whatever it is. Like you're trying to find a community that you can feel a part of something. - You're tribe. - Yes. - And that is normal. You write about when things really started to go downhill was a man named Les entered the picture for this group and he kind of started to take control of the group that you were seemingly already a part of. What was your first impression of him? - My first impression was that he was just kind of a jolly guy. I mean, I didn't think much of him. I met him across a room and he was just another face that I was meeting in LA. His whole family was with him when we met and I do remember having this like check in my gut and I thought it was because I, all right. I'll be really honest. I thought it was because I didn't like their faces. Have you ever met someone where you just like, I don't like your face? - Right. 'Cause you're kind of like, I don't know if I trust you or something about it. - Yeah, and then you're like, what an asshole I am. - I don't like somebody's face. - Like, fuck off. - But I get you were saying there's just something about it. They're like, huh. - Yeah, and the whole family, there was something about me that was like, I don't like their faces. And then I felt terrible and I was like judging myself. You know, joy, what an asshole you are. And so that was my first impression was just, here's a family of people I'd never met. They're friends with my friends. I don't like their faces and I'm a jerk for that and I'm gonna get over it. And let's get to know each other. - I love the honesty. You're like something up for, meanwhile, it's like you had that gut feeling, but again, from a young age, you were kind of taught your gut is wrong. So don't think that there's anything wrong with this person you're fine. Joy, keep going. - Yeah, and it couldn't be my gut. It has to be something else. What is it? - Faces. - Yes, right. - Right. So once less kind of took over, can you describe to me how in the beginning, just like a dynamic shift? Like what changed when this man kind of came into the picture? - It started moving from something that felt very communal and very, all participatory. Like everyone was participating. And it takes time. Like he couldn't have just come in and changed it overnight. You know, there was a slow transition. It took about a year now that I'm being in retrospect and I'm able to look back at it. And it was slow. He started spending more time with us. He started investing in the lives of the group members and the people who were there. I mean, group members. I guess it was just the friends that were gathering. And started to lead the meetings. And he was a pastor without a church at the time, which I found out later why. You have to read the book to find out. And so it felt like, oh wow, what an amazing opportunity we have to give this sweet pastor without a church, a forum to speak and to share the things that are on his heart. And it felt encouraging. And I felt like I was being challenged and called up to be more than I was currently living in, spiritually, emotionally, mentally. And that was exciting. I think it's important to, as we're going through this journey and obviously there's so many more details in the book, but I really appreciate you clarifying that it's like, there was not a moment someone walked through the doors and it's like, this is how we're gonna do things now because every human being in that establishment would have been like, this feels icky and weird. It's just like when we see an abusive relationships where people that are manipulative are very good at knowing it is a slow burn. So you don't notice it immediately. It's just the slow moment that all of a sudden you wake up one day, be like, wait, how did this, how did this happen? And so, hearing a year of this person just kind of coming in and slowly getting closer to everyone and like settling down roots and making you trust this person was the beginning days. Something you wrote about in the book and this was kind of when things started to get more intense is you write about how you were told that independence created an internal rebellion against God. Can you explain what this meant and how this like impacted your life and this like of you? - Yeah, there are so many things in the book that I hope for people who grew up in this faith, hopefully it'll be a little easier for them to spot the healthy versus unhealthy versions of things, which I think in so many realms are healthy and unhealthy versions. The unhealthy version of that is, independence is bad, therefore anything that separates you from the unity with the group or translate it to an abusive relationship the person that you're with, translate it to a work environment, your work community, anything that's inhibiting your ability to cast off yourself and serve other people in favor of yourself, that's problematic and that needs to be addressed and shut down. Does that make sense? - It makes sense. - It makes so much sense and I appreciate you kind of showing the different ways it can show up not just again like in a group setting but like in a relationship or work. Like I think everyone listening Daddy Gang, like we've all been there where you start to feel like your independence is either being threatened or you find yourself getting too wrapped up in something and then we all have that moment we pray that we're like, "Wait, I was losing myself." Like we've all said that at some point in our life but how far did you go before you realize you lost yourself? Everyone has a different experience and there's a different barometer and I get what you're talking about here is like, you are being preached like, stop living this independent life rely on us, the group. - And you believe it, I believed it because it felt like, yeah, I don't wanna be out here floating alone, doing everything on my own. I have blind spots. I mean, do you have blind spots? - Yes, I do. - We all have blind spots. That's a reasonable thing for someone to say to you. So okay, I've got blind spots while I need community. I need people to help me see what my blind spots are. So if I live in super independence, then I'm not allowing people in. So I have to live in this place where I trust other people to see things for me that I can't see. The problem is of course, if you are allowing the wrong people or a person to speak into your life in that way, then they can just wreak havoc and say and do whatever they want. And so it's a very fine line. - And you think, Joy, that's why I'm happy you wrote so much about your childhood in the book and we lightly talked about in the beginning of like, you referenced this loneliness that you felt as a child. And I think anyone that you can be so independent, that's so different than being lonely. And I think when you experience loneliness, we've all experienced it, again, to what degree everyone has their own situation. But like you crave, we all crave human connection and we crave feeling a part of something. So having that been so integral to your childhood of feeling alone and being an only child, I can understand you like seeking out this feeling of like, safety and comfort and people that care about you and are bringing you in. - Yeah. - The cult though and how we talk about, we started with the independence. They used a lot of very like loaded language that you came to learn, like bio family. What did that term mean, Joy? - Bio family. - That's the part where everybody runs out the door. (laughing) - Like that's where I lose you guys in a story. - Yeah. - Yeah, it was far into the story by then. We were so, and I think what I wrote was that he didn't have to be subtle, less character, didn't have to be subtle about it anymore. He could just start saying things like bio family. Bio family meant the family you were born into, but was not necessarily the family that you may have been called to be a part of, called spiritually into. - I do think a lot of people are more progressed now to be like, I can choose my family. - Yeah. - So I understand the concept, but I get what you're saying now. It's like it was a whole different level of manipulation that was going on. - But that's the thing, you understand the concept. - Yes. - So many of us do. It's a pain to go be with my family for the holidays because of all the, I'm not saying me, but so many of us say that. And I wanna go to vacation with my friends because that's my family. Hey, fam, hey, chosen fam. You hear it in church all the time. What's up family? We're a tribe. And what's, so insidious about it is that when someone uses something like that to say, actually we're separating you. It's not just a, it's not just an extra club that you're a part of. - Yes. - It's actually creating that suppressive person is another term. That space of like you are separate, you are other. We are here. This is real family and that is bio family. - And now let's talk about that 'cause that is again now where that differentiation is important. It's not just like we're another extended family. Can you talk to you about how they encouraged you to distance yourself from your parents? - Yeah. It's slow, man. Like it doesn't, again, yeah, I've said this a couple times, Mark Monsente, who was in Nexium. He has this great quote in the vowel. He's in the kitchen and he's like, nobody joins a cult. You join a good thing. Nobody walks into something and says, "Hey, I can't wait to fuck up my life. Where do I sign?" - Yes. - So it happens really slowly and they, there were things like small comments dropped. A lot of things like, "Hey, how is your time with your mom?" Well, it was fine, like usual, whatever. Yeah, I'm sorry, it's tough to not have a great relationship with your mom. Yeah, it's okay, I mean, she's my mom. Yeah, but don't forget, like, where your family, we're here for you and just she's just on a different path and she's on a different way. Okay, so that's the easy one, right? Like that's the first, like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see her, I can have space for her. And then it's like, well, did you talk to your mom about that? Yeah, I shared it with her. Just be careful, you know, because you're just spiritually in a different place than her and she may not be able to understand and I would just hate for her to be sowing things into you that are not the truth of your identity. And, you know, generations are powerful and so just be careful. Oh, gosh, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, okay. And then that's the little seed. And then the next one is, yeah, I like your mom. She's, you know, she's really sweet, but yeah, she just really doesn't understand you. And I just want to encourage you, you know, she doesn't understand boundaries joy. So just please make sure that you're protecting your boundaries and you don't need to call her back if you're not ready to. You don't need to, you don't need to, just because she's demanding something doesn't mean you have to give it to her. All things that sound reasonable in the right context. Wow. But you, that's why it takes time because it's not just something you can say to somebody. It has to, you have to gain their trust. You have to, I had to believe so many other good things. I had to see mornings, mornings with coffee, sitting on the front porch talking about philosophy. I had to see parenting moments. I had to see so many things that built these, this illusion of trust. Yeah. That when someone who is an narcissist so's those things into you then, not to use Christianies or weird terms, but whatever we all say these things. So I still second guess myself all the time, as you can see. But it's so much more believable. Yeah. No, when I appreciate you kind of sharing that gradual conversation because then I can imagine it just kept going to the point of complete isolation from your family. I don't know if I don't want to put words in your mouth, but then it can get, once you fully have their trust, it's like, Joy, you know you're better than that. You should not be speaking to your mother because you know she's going to bring you down. And then it's, and again, I think everyone, if we pause, has those moments with their friends, right? Where it's like, you know your friend needs to break up with their boyfriend. Let's just pretend, okay? Right. We're going to use a really simple conversation in your daddy gang. You know, if you go to your friend and be like, your boyfriend is a dick. He is definitely cheating on you. You need to leave him. Your friend is going to be like, uh, no. Like if anything, F you and walking up, you're not in this relationship. You don't see what he's like. Yes. Three in the morning, so sweet, blah, blah, blah. Yes. But if you, we all have that ability and it can be manipulative or not manipulative, but I believe with friendships, it's like, you know you have to be gradual and easy with those friends. You'd be like, Hey, how are you feeling? Then they open up to you. Then the next come, because you know, you can't, you don't want your friend to shut off and you know she won't listen to you unless you like lightly just give her the space to talk. And then one day she may be like, well, what do you think? And then you open up to be like, I think you deserve better. I love you so much. I'm hearing no matter. It's, it's a natural human being thing that can be good, but what you're describing, there was no good behind it because this person, the intent was to isolate you. Where, what did example I'm giving is it can look the same from outside, but it's really like, no, you want your friend to have the best, but you're also recognizing human beings. If you walk in a room and you say, do this, or you're gonna be like, what's wrong with you? It's the gradualness that allows people to get into a position where you trust someone. And then hopefully that person is not a manipulative psycho to be manipulating you in a way that is like going to fuck up your life. - Yeah. - And we trust, I think, as human beings. That's natural. To be like, wow, I've seen you be such a great person in front of me. Why wouldn't I trust this person? - Yes, why wouldn't we? I mean, I want to ramp. - Sorry, I'm going to ramp. - No, it's great because who wants to go through the world mistrusting everyone? That's what a happy way to live. Did your parents ever come to you with concern about this group? - Absolutely. My dad was much more forceful and open about it. And he's a very smart man. He's an incredibly educated man. So he had done so much research and he grew up in the 70s. I mean, talk about cults. - They were everywhere. - I think I know this. - Yeah, yeah. So he definitely was, he came to visit once and, you know, he was like, this feels weird, but I guess he told my mom like, no, I think this is a cult, this is bad news. But he was much more open with me about it. My mom was really smart and knew how to play the long game. So she just kind of waited and watched. And the more that I communicated about that with less and the other people in leadership in this group, the easier it was for them to see where my allegiances lay. And there was a meeting when they actually explicitly just told me like, you really should just cut your dad out. Like you should just stop talking to him. He's toxic. And how did you react when you would hear that? - By that point, I was several years in and I just trusted them more than I trusted my parents. So I heard it. I didn't, I did not do it then, but it did plant a seed of the people who I have trusted to see my blind spots are telling me that this is what's best for me. And every time I talk to my dad, he's telling me I'm an occult and he's worried about me and it's starting to wear on me. And eventually once I got married, it was easy to sort of pass the buck to my ex-husband or my husband at the time and let him deal with it. And then he just kind of completely shut the door. And I didn't talk to my dad for six years. - Wow. - Yeah, it was awful. - To condition you from doubting the group, you write about how they got control and they would use phrases like illegal questions. - Can you give me an example of an illegal question? - Sure. - An illegal question would be, maybe I married the wrong person. - You're not allowed to ask that question because you were already married. It's done. There's no questioning. You just move forward. That's a big one. - Wow. - Oh my God. Where did we go from there? - Shit, Joy. - Yeah. I'm trying to think of some other ones. - You know, other illegal questions would be more like that I'm thinking off right at the top of my head are more spiritually related. Did God call me to be a part of this family? Did am I, did I do the right thing by moving up here instead of staying in LA? Should I have taken this acting job? The questions that are retro-spective, I guess. I haven't thought of it in that term, but yeah, it's illegal questions are things that would cause you to call into question things that you've already chosen. - You can't have doubt about anything essentially in your life. - Yeah, you really can't. Which is so, it was so damaging. Getting out of it and being on the other side of that to not be allowed to question where you are in your life. How could you ever grow? Well, that's the point really, right? If you're in a group like that, they don't want you to grow. They don't want you to think for yourself, but I can imagine that creates this numbness in you where you just start to get good at being like, oh, most about to ask yourself the question, nope, don't ask because I shouldn't do that. And then once you create a pattern within yourself, it's hard to revert that pattern. Okay, we need to talk about one tree hill. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) Okay, we need to talk about one tree hill because I think what's so fascinating about this story is the world was watching you on one of the biggest shows on television still to this day is so beloved. I rewatch it any chance like that. - I love that you watched it. - You don't even know. Like I am obsessed. Like I could just pop episode one on again and let's rewatch the whole thing. Such a fan. But again, it is so interesting and it is really the proof of like we don't know what people are going through and we see these celebrities or actors or singers or whoever public facing and you think you know their life. And while you were on the huge TV show, you were also dealing with this hell. Can you take me to like what drew you to one tree hill? Like you're in this cold at the time that you go to get this job, right? - Yeah. - Okay, talk to me. What drew you to one tree hill at this time? - I was, well they actually shot the pilot without me. They shot it with somebody else. I had gotten the script for it. I, it was called Ravens at the time. I turned it down. I really wanted to just focus on film. And I just said, I just got off a soap opera in New York. I want to try something different. So I turned it down a couple of grounded pilots later. It came back around and they said they're recasting. They're shooting in two weeks and will you please go screen test for this role? So I did. - Love. How involved, 'cause I think again, when I just want to like clarify, like when people are listening to this and like hold on, wait. So you're in a cold, but you're still allowed to work. Like I think people may get confused of like how attached you need to be at the time. Like oh, you're allowed to go and work and be without these people. - Oh, right. - Yeah. - Explain how involved they were in your decision to take the show and like how did that work at the time? - Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, that's one of the things that also made it so insidious is that it wasn't a join us put on this robe and let's go all live in the forest together. Yeah, there was still a lot of autonomy. I think that's sort of how he kept everybody locked in because we were all really smart. Like this wasn't a group of people who were not smart. Like everyone was ambitious and had careers. And so he had to have known coming in that this is not gonna work if I try and ask everybody to just move up north and live with me in this weird little house. Big house. So yeah, it was very much communication based on daily activities hanging out, lunches, lots of phone calls and email chains and texting wasn't as much of a thing back then, but we were in constant community and communication with each other. So it didn't feel like, I mean, I don't know that he had to work that hard in that regard because he, meaning less. - Yep. - Daddy Gang. I always wanted to say that. - Daddy Gang. - Daddy Gang. - It's your moment. - It's my moment, it's your moment. - Yes. Yeah, so I think that was, it's not like the traditional cult when you think of that. We're not all living on a commune. I mean, there was a big house that several people all lived in at once, but they were also, their own families with jobs and other things going on that they all lived nearby. Yeah, does that make sense? - That makes them think of it. - I completely understand it's like there's someone constantly in communication with you and so if anything, like when you're starting a new job, everyone feels like, oh, I have no friends here. You had this safety net in the support system that was ever present, so it didn't make you ever feel like you were alone, which is huge to have, especially when you're going on new ventures in your career and feeling like, oh, I'm a little out of place, you're kind of never out of place because you have this support system. - Yeah. - Have you played Haley James Scott? - Yes. - In what ways did you relate to your character? - Initially, I really related with this sort of awkward girl next door thing, but that felt very comfortable for me. It felt like who I really was deep down and wasn't ever allowed to be because a lot of the roles I would get, you know, I was blonde and I had a big personality and so I would get a lot of these sort of leading lady parts or, you know, ongenoo parts. But I always felt like, I even say in the book, I was like, I feel like a dumpster, like trash panda, like cleaning dumps or lettuce out of my paws. Like I've always just felt awkward and like, like weird. And so it was fun to be able to step into this character that felt actually so much more like me than what I was usually getting cast for. So that was fun. - If you had to say what do you think was the most iconic Haley James Scott moment? - That's so hard. - Give us one. - Oh my God. Okay, I mean, the most iconic Haley moment, it's hard because so many of them were with James, Lafferty. - I know. - I know. You know, that kiss and the rain, when Nathan and Haley first finally get together and they just, like, they just have that kiss and the rain and that hose with holes in it and freezing cold water was pouring down on us. It was so fun. (laughing) - You're like the reality, love. - That's what you thought it looked like rain. - And James and I had never kissed before and he was, you know, 17 and I was cradle robbing at that point. And, you know, it was just awkward, you're smashing teeth and trying to, you know, your young kids just like, how do we kiss each other on camera? - I'm obsessed. It was one of the most iconic scenes and I feel like I do think of that one. I think of you guys so that was a good one. - Yes. - What is your favorite memory just from the show? - There are a lot, but there are not as many as I wish there were because at some point I kind of just checked out emotionally. But I would say early on, we, there were always hurricane warnings and hurricane, and actual hurricanes that came through. And when it wasn't too bad, but it was enough that they were like, hey, everybody just go inside for a little while. - Yeah. - We would often stay at somebody's house and the electricity would go out and you'd like candles and sit around and hang out and meet at the waffle house and be like, well, we got the next four hours at the waffle house, somebody bring a deck of cards and, you know, hopefully the burners won't go out and we can keep eating waffles. That was fun. That was early days of bonding when it was getting to know each other, trying to figure out who was, who fit where. And yeah, I really loved that. It makes my heartbreak for you that you, you know, just said, like, there were, not as many as I wish I had because obviously you did this show for so long and you write about in the book how while you were filming, the leaders of this cult that you are part of told you not to trust your co-stars and to essentially stay away from them. How did isolating yourself affect your dynamic onset? Well, I think I just became someone that nobody really knew how to connect with. When the cameras were rolling, my guard all went down, I was 100% present, I was there. It was a major catharsis for me, actually, the ability to just be completely free and vulnerable. So that's one of the reasons why I loved being on the show and why I feel like it saved my life in a lot of ways because it was kind of the only place in my life I could actually do that. But when they said cut and we went back to just sitting in our cast chairs waiting, I would only let people in so far and I think, again, people in abusive relationships can relate to that too because there's too much at stake if you allow in someone else's perception, judgment, ideas about your relationship or the relationships that you're a part of in your life. So whether it's a group of people or one person, a lot of people who are in abusive situations will hide the abuse because I don't know why I'm living in this misery, but I don't want your opinion about why I'm living in this misery because then I'll have to maybe really deal with it in a different way. - Yeah, it's almost like you're so, you are aware that something is often weird, but you're so immersed in that world. - It's like protective almost. - Yeah, that it's kind of like you know that people wouldn't fully understand the extent of it, so it's not worth letting them in at all. But I wonder like on that set with all these like young people, like did you have moments as much as you were like really being manipulated by this cult, like did you have moments where you're like, fuck like what am I doing? Like where were you still couldn't really see it at that point? - I couldn't see what am I doing. I felt mostly superior to other people. - Okay. - And I felt mostly like they just can't understand and I've got an answer. I've figured, I mean that's any cult, that's the idea is we've got something special that you don't have. Unfortunately that really colored a lot of my relationships with people, but the thing is you're gut never goes away. I don't think. - I don't think so either. - So I still felt this sense of self-loathing and like it's an unending ladder that you're just constantly trying to climb to achieve to do the things that are gonna save you or whatever you're trying to, whatever enlightenment, your level you're trying to reach. And I was so in that zone that everything I did was every interaction I had was colored by that. And I did at the same time because I had this sort of self-loathing, I also really, I guess that maybe was jealous of other people on the show too, not the way that women are jealous of each other in a cliche way, but more of the freedom to be a mess, the freedom to just explore life and ask questions that weren't illegal. - Yeah. - And just the freedom to like live your life. - Yeah. - I was jealous of the freedom to live life. And I, but I was so committed to my belief system that I would never allow myself to cross over into that. And I think it just created a difficult dynamic for having a relationship like a joy just has a, you can only go so far. There's a wall. - Now when you look back, like if you were honest with yourself 'cause you can now see it in a different way, like what do you think they all thought of you? - Well, I think they thought that I was stubborn and weird and in a cult. (laughing) - I think they thought. (laughing) - Eventually, yeah. - Eventually they did it. - Job, obviously. - Obviously. - No, they knew. They knew. They knew because I think they probably felt really bad for me. - How soon and do you think they knew? - Give us five years. - Two years. - Two years. - So yeah, I would say by season two, they were like, I think this is a cult. - I think this is probably bad. - Did anyone ever try to say anything to you? - Well, I did have one really good friend who was, she was one of the set PAs and I trusted her so much. I think honestly because she was Catholic and she was the only religious person on set. And so I was like, another religious person. So you may not be as far along, spiritually, as I am. - However. - You're like, do you want me to introduce you to Les? - Let's do it. - I've got a great guy for you. - Stop it. - He's so dark. (laughing) But I did trust her and she, and her husband were wonderful people and my husband at the time and I used to hang out with him all the time and we'd go over their house for a wine nights and it was like a safe haven. And so she definitely tried in, she again was like my mother very smart, long game. Like, knew I was involved in something unhealthy and just wanted to slowly present questions but she knew she couldn't push too hard or I'd push her away. Really, really good friend. And I so appreciate that but nobody else on the show, no, nobody ever said, I mean Tyler once just flat out came out and was like, are you in a cult? - Stop, stop. I love him so much. - Stop it. - That should tell you so much about his personality. - He's so great. - And when someone was saying that to you, like what did you say? - No, I was like, no, I hate that people can't understand the depth of relationship that happens when you find your chosen family and you just commit to them. Why does it have to be a cult? Why does it have to be weird? Like I feel so bad for you that you don't understand what it's like to have this kind of depth of relationship. How sad and shallow must your life be? - Oh man, you doing that even now, Joy, I'm like, oh my god, I feel like shit. But I could see how people around you then would just like roll their eyes and be like, okay, I'm literally walking back on set. Like there's no place. - Yes. - So you can, and you have again, we have all been there when someone genuinely believes something so deep to their core. There is no point to try to change that. Everyone is on their own path in journey and you gotta let people figure it out on their own through their own time. It doesn't mean they didn't care, but I can imagine it's like, what are we all gonna do at an intervention? Like we're here to do a job. She's nice when she's around us. That's all we care about, you know? - That's it. It just became a professional environment. And they did. I know Paul, Johansson, and probably Greg Pranger, our executive producer and a couple other people, had a meeting at one point. Like, let's talk about this. Or do we need to be worried about her? You know, is she financially this looks bad? Is she in danger? Like what do we need to do? But I think at the end of the day, they realized exactly what you just said. And nobody can wake you up, but you, like at some point it's just the right time. - You write about how at the time, you couldn't be friends with Sofia Bush because of your own insecurities and militant beliefs. What was it about Sofia that made you uncomfortable? - I think we were both approaching life from a similar way, but from opposite perspectives. So the motive I think was similar in, she, I'm not her, I didn't grow up as her, but I think she grew up with some very specific beliefs about life and how things should be done and pursued that. And that can also be really wonderful, but the way that we were approaching it, maybe was too similar and because the conclusions that we had come to about life and God and all those things were very different, there just was no space for listening. She would have been much more quick to listen to my perspective and hear me than I would have been at the time. But I think fundamentally there was probably a similarity. - I mean, I think for a while, Brooke Davis and Hailey didn't can along on set anyways or on the screen. - So I kind of worked, but was it difficult on set where you're just not getting completely along with someone, but you don't know how to handle it and you're young? - Yeah, those days were hard because I, it was this sort of, and I think I write about this too, I know I did the paralysis and desire, the feeling of like, I want to connect with you. I want to be friends with you. Why can't we? Why don't you know how? Why don't I know how? What is wrong? And yet we have to show up and pretend like we're really close and so we're going through the motions of close friendship but not actually knowing how to connect. It's hard. I mean, I think you could feel that in romantic relationships too where you know you love someone, you know you have all these things in common, you just like why are we not, what's going on? - Yeah, why is it not working? - Yeah, that's very really important. - But especially when you're that young and you have so many other friends and so many other things at some point, you're just like, I don't know. - Yes, you know? - Like all good, let's just leave it at once. - Yeah. - What it is. Have you guys talked about that and like just kind of gone through everything that happened back then in the day or a little bit, not as much as I would like. And on drama queens, we've definitely talked a lot about our time back then and what was hard and how great it was to reconnect and the feelings of unraveling things that were so mysterious to us at the time. But no, it's an ever evolving journey. There are still plenty of people in my life that I, man, shame is a tough thing. Like one of the reasons why I really feel passionate about telling this story now, or I was so reluctant at first, but I think shame gets smaller and smaller the more you expose it and the more you just open up and say, this is my mess. But even having conversations with my step sister or like my little brother and having those moments of like, hey, I disappeared for 10 years and I'm really sorry. Like I don't, I've had those moments very briefly, but it's painful 'cause it's shame, you know? - I can't imagine Joy honestly, like, and I appreciate you talking about that because I feel like again, back to an abusive relationship. Like it takes so long for someone to just even like, get back to, you can't even get back to who you were because you were so young. So it's like, who am I without this abusive situation that I was in for so long? And I think like the repairing of the relationships from what I understand from a lot of people that went through a long abusive situation is like, it's almost just a this huge, heavy thing that you know is sitting in the corner but you're like, fuck, but first I gotta make sure I'm really good 'cause then I, I first have to make sure I'm good so then I can begin to rebuild these relationships because if I'm still not good, then it's like what is the use of reaching out and having these difficult conversations? On top of that, the difficult conversations, you do kind of have to acknowledge what happened and it's again and it's again and it's again and it's like taking accountability and also like asking for grace and understanding and it's like, there's no right way to get back into a relationship with someone after being a different person in the relationship and it's like, it's a lot. I have a lot of empathy for you. - Thank you. I, you're speaking so eloquently about it and it's really interesting to talk with you because I feel like even just hearing the way that you're phrasing things, puts things in perspective for me that you know, I lived it. It's all in my brain and a jumble but as much as I was able to put on paper my thoughts, there's still so many things that are tangled that I still try and unwind. But what you were just saying about needing to feel like, I'm good, I'm okay before I go reach out. For me, that was more isolating. Like I needed to connect with people and not even necessarily in a way of like, hey, clean me up. You know, that was obviously I have to do my own work but experiencing the grace that you just said and that the forgiveness and the looking across at somebody who's just like, I may mistakes too. And it's okay, like we're all doing that. That's welcome to being a human being. Hello, good morning. - I think that's the biggest moment that a lot of people in abusive situations have this moment where they're like, whoa, I thought everyone was gonna just like, never forgive me and turn their backs. And everyone's like, babe, we've been waiting for you. - Yes. - Like we love you. - That's it. - Welcome back. - Yes. - And I think it's like, - It's humbling. - Because again, when you're in the abusive situation, the abuser makes you feel like none of them love you. They will be, they will not be there if you leave me. I'm the only thing you have. And so you believe that. And then the minute you leave, everyone's like, oh man, who's gonna catch her first? We're all here, we're ready with open arms and that must be very overwhelming. It was that was the biggest shock leaving. Because it has to get so bad that you're willing to be alone in the world, rather than stay another second in that situation. - And then turns out you're not alone. - And then it turns out you're not. It's the biggest surprise and the biggest gift. - We have so much still to go through. We're not there yet, but that makes me so happy to know because I think so many people listening are like, oh my God, I needed to hear that. Because they may be sitting in their car listening to this going home to that abuse or being like, wait. Yeah, maybe this is the sign that like, 'cause I do feel that right now. I feel like I only have him or I only have her. And then it's like, yeah, they are making you feel that way. On the one tree hill thing, because I do know and I talk about this a lot with actors, like there is this like voyeuristic thing that fans become obsessed with these dynamics. And that's why I was asking about those so via thing. Because it was interesting seeing you write about it in the book because we all fell in love with you and her and all the characters on this show. I have to ask because it's color daddy. (laughing) Fans are speculating that things between you and Hillary are not great, not friends anymore. Don't follow each other on social media. I don't want to get too much into it 'cause I know it's like, this is your personal life. I just wondered if you have anything to like say about it? - I love Hillary. I have always and will always. And I don't have any problem with her. There have been some bizarre misunderstandings that I really hope we can figure out one day. But I love that girl. - Thank you for sharing. Have you had any conversations about signing up for the reboot? - No, it's way too early to even talk about that. - Okay, I know. - I don't know if it was a press release or something leaked or I don't know. - I mean, I had heard about it, but I don't know where we go back to Tree Hill. - Hey, Lee, we're going back. Okay, good to know, too early, too early. - Yeah, yeah. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - I'm curious, now back into, so you're in one Tree Hill, we're watching all of this success. And then the rumors obviously start. Is she in a cult? What is happening? How was that like affecting your career outside of one Tree Hill? 'Cause I knew you wanted to do more things and didn't you have like an opportunity on Broadway? - Yeah. - But they stopped, like how much did they have a hold of your career? - Yeah, that was tough. That was a tough pill to swallow. I, yeah, I mean, gosh, we started out on this show and it was budding and it was so successful and the fans of TRL and now the show is everywhere and we're doing Teen Vogue and I'm getting auditions for huge studio movies or screen tests, rather they were much farther along than I had ever been because once you have that kind of exposure, the studios are much more likely to sign off on you on their list. And so it was an exciting time and I was so far along in my submission and abdication to this group and the thing was that it was disguised as submission to God. And so from that place, everything about my career started to then funnel through the group because I didn't trust my own instinct to know if I was on the right path or taking the right job. I think we all struggle enough with making decisions, especially if you're somebody with ADHD who is just like, I can't, I can stand in front of a line at Starbucks for 10 minutes and everyone hates me. So let alone big life decisions. It's so paralyzing if you don't know that you can kind of make any choice and it's all gonna work out okay. So yeah, there were, I was cast as Bell in Beauty and the Beast and gave that up at the advice, the heavy handed advice of less character in the book. There were some really big movies that I was on a short list for audition for, was pinned for and then I'd call my agent and be like, you know what, I actually don't, I don't wanna do this, I don't wanna continue auditioning for this. Why do you think they didn't want you to do it? Well, I think it's just control. The more that I worked, the less they would see me. The more that I worked, the more confidence I would be gaining in my abilities and my creativity. If I just stayed playing one character for 10 years and I never did anything else, then they know where I am all the time basically. I'm not gaining a sense of freedom in traveling all over the world. I'm not meeting new people 'cause they had a handle on who was on set, who the people were that I was working with. They knew how to control my perspectives of all the people. But if I'm meeting new people, if I'm in New York and I'm in a new show, if I'm traveling to Greece to film a movie, if I'm, there was just no way to control that. They also controlled your finances. Yes, ma'am. Okay. How did that come to be? And did you have any hesitations when you handed over your finances to these people? Yes, I did. Okay. Your gut never goes away. Nope. I got married to another group member. And very Christian tradition, maybe another religions too. I don't know where you merge your finances when you get married. Okay. I think there's probably a lot of secular people who also merge their finances when they get married as a sign of unity and we're doing this together. Like great. And so that's what I did. I just did the dutiful Christian wife thing and merged my accounts. And it never, it didn't occur to me, of course, that I was going to be taking advantage of it was more just that gut check of like, this is mine. Yeah. Like I've been working really hard for all of this. And I'm not sure that I should just be randomly adding someone else's name to the account, but it's, I'm going to marry him. So I guess it's okay. So you end up marrying who was the cult leader's son. Yeah. Talk about him as QB in the book. How would you describe your relationship at first with this man? playful and easy. We didn't have a lot in common. There wasn't a lot of intellectual stimulation, but there was, I mean, I was kind of run out of options. Like I, it couldn't date a non-Christian. I couldn't really date anybody outside of the group, or certainly not anybody who lived anywhere outside of that area. So yeah, it just became this sort of arranged situation. Can you explain the concept that you write about in the book about spiritual authority in relationships? Yeah. Super typical in many Christian communities. This idea that the man is the spiritual authority in a household. So a spiritual authority would be, I think, as far as I understood it in the group. It was the man, it basically gets the last word on everything and he gets the final say. And you really are not allowed to question him. You can't question his decisions. You can't know about deep intimate things in his life. He has to go to other men for that, but he's responsible for you and he's supposed to know all the deep intimate things about your life. That's how it was presented to me, but not in those words. Otherwise, I would have been like, "Y'all crazy." Let me clarify Alex, that's not how it was presented. Yeah, yeah. It was a way better way that they did it about it. You saved yourself for marriage, but ultimately, you write about having no sexual desire for your husband at the time. How did this impact the way you understood sex? It was so difficult. I don't know how people in other cultures who have arranged marriages do it. I can only come from my Western perspective, but I don't want to assume that that's the only way of doing things. But for me, based on my upbringing, and I was really, like I said, I was boy crazy. I had a crazy sex drive. It's kind of amazing that I didn't have sex until I was married. It felt like this promise that I had been given as a good evangelical was a big crock. Like, what the heck? I thought, if I saved myself for marriage, then the promise is, amazing sex and super deep intimacy and nothing's ever as good, and it's just like the best thing ever. God created sex and it's just going to be the best thing ever. Then we have sex and it's like, why do I feel so sad? Why is this not? I don't feel can more connected to you. I feel farther away from you. It wasn't. I don't think that necessarily had anything to do with saving myself for marriage. It was just that I married the wrong person. That also is hard to say because an amazing daughter. Is anything wrong? Here I am. Hopefully able to help a lot of people. It's hard to say that any of those choices were wrong. In the moment, I definitely felt like, oh no, this can't be it. This is bad. When you realized that, obviously I know you wrote about in the book, which was very sad about this schedule that was essentially implemented into your relationship. Can you talk about that? It's so wild to even just hear you say that it's sad because I haven't talked to a lot of people about that. I wrote it and just was like, okay, I wrote it. Move on. Keep going. To clarify, daddy gang, that it was. I didn't have this attraction. I didn't have the drive really ever. We just weren't connected. We weren't the right people for each other. Because I was so disinterested in sex, I was then asked to go on a schedule basically. Of like, here's how you can. You just have to do it. Just do it. This is your duty. This is your job as a wife. Your emotions will fall in line. If you do it enough, then eventually you will find a way to enjoy it. You will find a way to feel connected. At that point, you're like, again, the things that you hear, if you heard it right away, you'd be like, "This shit's crazy. I'm out." But when you're that far down the line and you've so much at stake and now I'm in a marriage and now I'm tied up with. I have no other friends outside of this group. I've made a commitment and I take marriage seriously and I made a promise before God. This is something I really want to figure out how to make it work. I hated it, but I was like, "Okay, if this is what I'm supposed to do, I'll just make sure that it's happening every. Well, he was back and forth between the Pacific Northwest and Wellington a lot. The schedule had more to do with when he was in town, but yeah, it was a routine that I had to participate in in order to keep the peace in my marriage." When he would come into town, would you like, "Oh my God, my stomach dropped every single time." In fact, it really affected my relationships afterwards, like other boyfriends that I would have. When I had to go pick them up from the airport, I had so much PTSD from showing up at the airport to see him knowing that I was going to have to start this sex schedule for the next two weeks or three weeks or whatever. It's so sad because he. Like poor guy. Like, I never had a shot. It was raised by this narcissist. He's thrust into a marriage with a girl that's not right for him. He's doing the best that he can. He's been fed all these lies about men in machismo and warriors and all this shit that like he was raised in that. So it was just a mess all around. No, it just makes me really. Yes, it is sad, Joy. It is sad to hear you because I think a lot of women can relate to that of not wanting to do something, but knowing to keep the peace. That is the way to go. And it's so frustrating because a lot of people, unless you're involved in something, don't understand how to break the cycle because a lot of times I think as women were just taught, like, it's better to just appease the situation and just like not cause a problem rather than speaking up for ourselves and trying to get out of it because that could lead to violence, which you write about in the book. Yeah. There's so many things that can come from going against the grain, so sometimes you just fall in line. It's exactly what you were talking about with your Paris story, by the way. Like, that's the same thing that like I'm stuck in the situation. I just want to. How do I make it just go away? Just get it over with. It'll be done. Maybe this will help. Maybe this will be the thing that brings us together. It's a reasonable thing to assume because there are so many marriage therapists out there who will tell you when they're looking at a couple who's been married for 25 years and they're not interested in each other anymore. They're like, listen, you have to go through the motions sometimes because it'll help you remember who you were together a long time ago. It's not crazy advice. It's just crazy advice in that circumstance. Yes. Yes. Thank you for clarifying. That was a good one. I thought this time also, I wanted to just kind of talk about the juxtaposition of like, we have Haley and Nathan being this it couple on television. Did you ever catch yourself loving your TV marriage and almost like using that as a form of escapism from your real marriage? Oh, for sure. I did. Yes. And only in the moments when the cameras were rolling and so it worked with the storyline. I mean, Nathan Haley had great chemistry. And so I leaned into it. But I think God, James and I were able to really maintain a totally professional relationship. Like I just never, I always sort of saw him in real life as a brotherly figure and he was lovely. So we never crossed that boundary and I never had to worry about having feelings for like that would have been really, really difficult. But no. But I just knew also like because of the controlling aspect of this cult, like were they okay with you're like having even just like an on screen romantic relationship where you're having to kiss this co star. Like how did that go? Nobody cared except my husband. I mean, he hated it. But he also wanted me to quit acting. So I would stop making out with other guys. There you go. Yeah. There you go. Okay. So as you're, I'm we're kind of getting towards like now like the big moment where you're going to realize you need to leave. But I want to talk about and I know I love that you mentioned this earlier. There is an obvious disconnect between you and your husband at the time, but something so beautiful came out of your relationship, which is your daughter. And that you write about so beautifully of like, she's your everything. And so you did get something incredible out of such a horrific experience for those 10 years. And you had this child with your husband like had you guys talked about wanting to start a family together? He wanted to. Okay. I wasn't ready because I was miserable. And it just took a long time. I mean, it took long enough for me to get to a place where I felt like, okay, we're happy enough. Like we're friendly enough. It seems like we're on a pretty good track. So let's just, I think we're ready now. I didn't know when you're supposed to have a baby or not supposed to or I didn't know what to do, but I knew that I was not in misery. And I wanted, I did want a baby. I'd always wanted a baby. I always wanted to be a mom. But I didn't want to do it in a time when I was full of emotional turmoil. And that took about six years to get to that point. So you talk about your onset of one tree hill, someone's like, are you an occult? You're like, no, you don't get it. Take me to the moment that it did click for you. Oh, this is not one big happy family. This is occult. When did you realize it was after the show, unfortunately, it had just ended in November, I believe I was in LA in February and pilot season. And I mean, there's no auditioning up in the Pacific Northwest. It wasn't a life that I was realistically going to be able to live and keep my insurance or the only insurance and the only income that we had. And all the money was gone at that point, so which I didn't totally know, but they knew. So I think that's probably why my ex and his dad were like, yeah, maybe you should get an apartment in LA. Anyway, maybe time to get back on set. Let's get you a job. So I, yeah, we were in LA and I have been in therapy. I felt more like I would like to talk with someone about all of the misery that I'm experiencing and I would like that person to be outside of this family. And as I did that, the therapy was immensely helpful for me and started to teach me about boundaries and because my ex-husband had some violent tendencies, the first thing that my therapist was addressing with me was, hey, not okay for somebody to be physically violent towards you around you. This is not okay on a routine basis. Yeah, absolutely. And so I started to implement boundaries. And I think after that, after I extracted my daughter and myself from a physically abusive environment, I was more willing to look at things from alternative perspectives. My therapist, I remember probably two months after that was like, are we ready to call it a cult yet? Which was brave of her. And I was like, no, I would not be that stupid. Like, no, that is not me. Guess what? Me! Oh, stop. Join. Yep. She was right. It took a minute though. Like maybe I was very uncomfortable with it and I had to really sit with that for a while. But once she said that and all the pieces really started to lock into place, it became clear that it was really unhealthy. I think something really beautiful also that you're talking about again to anyone in a situation similar with these themes of essentially being isolated to then be abused and manipulated is the minute you have someone who doesn't want you to interact with anyone outside of the people they can control that is the biggest red flag because you just getting a little bit of an opportunity to speak to someone that is licensed to speak with you and help you set boundaries which every single human being should have boundaries in their life with other humans. And you're seeing this like it was such an opportunity for you again to grow and to recognize like what you didn't want in life. But that completely threatens your ex-husband's ability to control you. And so I think that for people listening, I hope you can take it. If you feel like the only person you can constantly turn to is the person who is hurting you the most, that is your sign that you are in an abusive situation. They can only control you if you are alone with them. And of course you can go to work and you can have friends. But you know that there's a different level of going to work. When's the last time you actually had a girl's night and he didn't have tabs on you. It's like it is so quick that it flips. Because like I said to you earlier like, oh so you were going to work. You can look like you're living a very normal life. It's just inside of you you have these guardrails that you know that you can't go outside of. And it's really fucking difficult to get away from that because you become conditioned. Yeah. Yeah you think that you're not alone. But the more you, your gut is telling you you feel like you're completely isolated. Can you share with us and I know we talked about this earlier but coming back to like the process of leaving and untangling your life from these people in this cult. Like what was that experience life? Because again we talked about how it's terrifying and then what was your experience? It was terrifying. It was my only friends. So I thought suddenly turned on me and they were showing up at my house to you know for custody exchanges like trying to intimidate me and like flanking my ex on either side like goons just ready to watch me or ready to you know film me doing like to have your best friends who you've shared your most vulnerable intimate secrets with suddenly turn around and like overnight just that's it. If you're not with us you're against us. If you're not part of us you're the enemy. And to be treated like an enemy is from someone who you've been very very close with all of a sudden no conversation, no there just was no willingness to see because the stakes are so high for them too. It's understandable objectively. You go into this custody battle and you write about something I thought was really interesting about. Can you talk to me regarding the lawyers and the court and how they reacted to you explaining this cult experience to them? This is one of the most frustrating things about all of it because I began to realize how broken the family court system is in this country. The saying is no bruise no case. If you don't have a physical altercation with someone they don't consider it abuse in the court because how do you legislate or even qualify mental abuse, emotional abuse, spiritual abuse. I mean that's the hardest one too because the courts are like I don't want to touch anything religious church and state like no. I want to ask you this mostly because I do think it's so indicative of the like exploitiveness of this dynamic and the abuse of like through the custody battle you write about how you would spend so much money in court like around the number. Can you share like how much these people took from you financially? Well, when I was in the group they took two million dollars from me. When I got out I had about 250 left which is not nothing. I mean that's a significant amount of money but the court costs in total were about 350, 350,000 and that was so I left the group with money in the bank that was already committed to other things like my mortgage like the which I ended up having to do a short sale on like the IRS like so many unpaid bills and there were lawsuits I didn't know about that I had to I mean there it was absolute financial abuse it was just a total mess. So everything you basically made from one tree hill just gone. And another relatable thing about this for so many women who are in abusive relationships is the financial tie that they're like I can't leave because what am I going to do? Who's going to pay for my kids? Who's going to pay for the groceries? A lot of them don't have a skill because they've been in a controlled environment for so long so they're like I can't what kind of job am I going to get? The guy controls all the money and I I was going to say my advice would be get out anyway and just trust it it's going to be okay but that's a really cheap thing to say because I'm not I don't know every single person situation but I I hate I guess the heart behind what I'm meaning is that I hate for any woman anyone to be stuck in a situation because of finances and I know what it's like to be a single mom and not know where next month's rent is coming from and I learned a lot in that time I grew a lot and it did God did always show up for me like something always worked out every month so I can you know like I I'm not here to give advice but I can tell what happened for me but I and I appreciate the sentiment of it is like leaving something bad like you will find something I believe in the world like you will find something good that comes to you when you can get out of something like that as we're kind of like finishing this conversation I feel like obviously I I want everyone to go read your book and and there's so much in it that is so even more detailing of like how someone can get into the situation because I am so understanding that at face value someone can roll their eyes and be like what do you mean you were in a cults like you asked for this like again and that's why someone needs to listen to this episode and then they'll be like okay wait never mind that's fucking crazy but can you share like what do you think the biggest misconception people have about cults is it's the same misconception I had which is why I didn't think I was in one because I was like no cults are crazy people and they all live together in some weird big house and they all wear the same thing and they're all sleeping with the leader and they're all you know he's got a million babies with all these ladies and they're doing all kinds of crazy shit and drinking weird things and they don't interact with the rest of the world like it's everything that you think of from a 1970s flower child you know yes Bizarre world's cults and we've we've come a long way because there is no real definition of a cult you can't even use it in court the word cults it's not viable you have to say high demand group wow I didn't know that yeah there's no legal definition of cult like catholicism I guess is a cult Christianity Buddhism soul cycle like I said before like I love soul cycle by the way no no I'm just saying I know some people get real hyped on it's own but there's no there's no definition so it's it's like we've used it as this slang for things that are super weird that is so helpful because I agree I think people picture like cloaks and like yeah there's like voodoo shit yeah no it's the Illuminati and all these things yeah but you're on set of one tree hill we're all watching you and it's all going down like it is just you can get into a situation that you don't even know what it is because it's presenting at first as this loving person that's wanting to just be your friend and help you out yeah so you get out and now I'm curious kind of like the aftermath of how has your experience of going from being so controlled and manipulated by these people impacted your now ability to trust people brilliant question yeah you get the nail on that I mean it's it's really difficult yeah I joke about it a lot I'm like I don't trust anybody you know but I don't I was just talking about this over coffee this morning with a girlfriend I don't want to go through the world as someone who doesn't trust people that's not how we're supposed to live I don't I really believe that's not how we're supposed to live I also am really grateful for the lesson that it's okay to give people the benefit of the doubt but maybe not credit if that makes sense like you don't you don't get to walk into my life and automatically get the free credit card of like friend here's the friendship credit card swipe it whenever you want do whatever you want with it but I I will give you the benefit of the doubt if I see something weird or like every that's been the hardest part to navigate Alex is just who who is who is just normal and has weird baggage like hello every single human yeah when is the baggage something that's affecting my boundaries in a way that I I just can't engage with yeah when is the baggage something that triggers me but maybe I can learn something and maybe you can learn something and it's worth pushing through yeah I don't it's a case by case basis I was going to say like I was going to ask you how do you learn to trust yourself again but I feel like it's kind of the same it's in the same vein of like you're you're going to learn to trust yourself as you're going to trust other people and when you're feeling something that doesn't make you feel good about that person you're not trusting them as much you then have to turn in ward and be like is this because of my trauma or is this because this person is actually showing something that is pushing my boundaries and making me uncomfortable and you have to be able to discern the two and you're not always going to get it right you're not you're just going to have to at some point let go and trust my last question is like what do you ultimately hope people take away from reading your book well I hope they never join a cult no daddy gang no cult I just I hope people feel like they're not alone I've said that before I like I really I really want people to feel like their own shame their own mistakes are faceable that there's hope and that shame like please don't live in shame don't let it keep you closed off and shut down and not talk about things you have to let it out you have to let it out of your body the see see the only way to actually find hope and move forward so I really hope that that's an alleviating thing for people it is it's more than alleviating it is extremely encouraging and hopeful I cannot thank you enough for coming and having this conversation with me I can already feel just how impactful this is going to be and I commend you for writing this book I think it's like so incredible of you to be able to like pen to paper put down something that consumed your life for 10 years and I think a lot of a lot of people are going to find not only like comfort in it but feel very connected to you and I think you have like a very incredible story but just you as a human being like sitting with you I'm like you're a very inspiring person and I'm so excited to see what you continue to do like thank you for taking the time it was literally an honor thank you Alex well I think you're inspiring to I really I really do I think you're so smart and so interesting and I love the way that you just that you just embrace life and run kind of run freely like open your openness is really really engaging and inviting and I want more of it in my life so I'm really grateful I got to spend some time with you today.