BETH HOLLOWAY: The Heartbreaking Story of Natalee Holloway and Her Mother's 18-Year Fight For The Truth

This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. One of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves is the chance to step outside of our routine. Travel is a way of slowing us down and shifting our perspective. And with the Chase Sapphire Reserve card, every journey becomes even more rewarding. Earn four times the points on flights and hotels booked direct. Enjoy access to award-winning airport lounges, three times the points on dining and reserve exclusive tables. Learn more at chase.com forward slash Sapphire Reserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank, NA member FDIC, subject to credit approval, terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Pandora's new holiday collection. There's so much I love about the holiday season, but finding meaningful gifts for my family and friends might be one of the best parts. Pandora makes shopping with intention really simple. I found a heart clasp snake chain bracelet and picked out a few charms that represent heartfelt memories and experiences my wife and I will remember and cherish forever. This season, celebrate the ones you know by heart with a gift that says it all. Pandora, more than a gift. Shop new styles in store or online at pandora.net. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. As the main character of your life, you know how important it is to make the right choices for you and how rewarding it is to feel good about your decisions. With the State Farm personal price plan, you have options to help create an affordable price for you. So you can continue living your best life. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. Hey, it's Jay. I don't know what your day's been like, but I was just thinking about you for a minute. And I hope you're being a little patient with yourself because you deserve it. And yeah, I'll talk to you soon. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. Today I'm sitting down with Beth Holloway, the mother of Natalie Holloway, whose disappearance during a high school graduation trip to Aruba in 2005 captured the world's attention. For 18 years, Beth fought tirelessly to uncover the truth about what happened to her daughter. Now, with a new Netflix documentary revisiting Natalie's story and Beth's extraordinary search for answers, we're talking about her journey, the strength it took to keep going, and what it means to finally have answers after nearly two decades. Beth Holloway, welcome to On Purpose. Thank you, Jay. It's an honor to be here with you. Thank you. Beth, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that I get to talk to you today. I was fortunate enough to watch, taken the documentary that you made with Netflix in preparation for this interview. I want to start by saying I'm so sorry for your loss. I'm so deeply sorry for how you've had to spend the last two decades. And I am so deeply moved by your courage, your love, your perseverance when I think so much has changed. And so many others would have given up. So I just wanted to start off by acknowledging your incredible, deep love for you and your family and what you've been able to do for the last two decades. So thank you for trusting me and my platform. Thank you. Beth, for those who don't know Natalie's story, could you tell us a little bit about who Natalie was? Natalie was really just like every other 18-year-old, just had her whole life ahead of her. Ambitions. Goals. She had just graduated from high school and was on her way to college and medical school after that. She was such an academic achiever. But Natalie also had the fun side to her where she could be humorous and funny and have the light side with her friends. But she always traveled in a large pack of friends. I mean, the girls must have been like 40 girls. They were always coming in and out. And I can even remember, Jay, I never took my children on a vacation without taking one, if not two. Mostly, most of the time, it was two of her friends. Poor Matt, he didn't get to take anyone. My son was like, no, no, you can't. But Natalie. So she would travel. Even they were always with her. They were there for her, danced with her, laughed with her, cried with her. Her friends were everything to her. Yet she could achieve full academic scholarships to the University of Alabama. So I think that's a pretty well-balanced young girl, which a lot of our young adults are as equally ambitious and balanced as Natalie, too. What's your favorite memory of Natalie growing up or one that you fondly look back on? My strongest memory of Natalie was always just. Just asking her, where are we going next, Jay? Because she was the leader. I just followed her. It was hard for me to keep up with her as her parent because she made the decisions. I was just kind of like there to, okay, what are we going to do now? Like if she had set her sight on a goal and she was like, I'm going to do this, I was like, okay. I mean, so that was Natalie. I mean, she, it was just about really if I could keep up with her. And I think that was what was so unique. But, you know, the light side, too. Her friends called her Hootie. And so I thought, so I knew she had that fun side to her, but I didn't get to see it as much as her friends did, of course. I remember one instance I had to take her lunch. She was in the, she was in junior high. I think she must have been in, she could have been in 10th grade, maybe by then high school, 10th grade. And I went to the cafeteria and I was almost shy. Yeah. Like I didn't really. I didn't really want to go in, you know, call her name to have her mother come bring her lunch. Because I was also a teacher at a school, the same school, Mountain Brook School, right down the street from her. And when I opened the door, the kids in the cafeteria yelled, Hootie, your mom's here. And the whole cafeteria and I was like about melted because I thought she's going to kill me. But, you know, that, I just thought that was great, you know. So she, so I knew she had a lighter side when they all yelled, Hootie, your mom's here. Yeah. That's so beautiful to hear. I mean, when we're watching the documentary in 2005, after graduating, she's going on a celebratory trip to Aruba. What do you remember about saying goodbye to her when she was leaving? You called it a rite of passage in the documentary. And yeah, what was your thoughts at that time? My thoughts at that time were she deserves it. She's earned it. Like I said, she'd had a full ride to the University of Alabama. And I thought, why not? Okay. So we were mostly concerned with the right bikini, the right sunscreen, the right sundress. We were mostly concerned with that than anything else. It was just fun. Everything was picking out the outfits to go. And all the frenzy that goes with that, making sure that, of course, she had to make sure she had her passport. And so everything was just building, like, just go, have fun, rite of passage. You've earned it. And there were no other thoughts than just excitement. And I think that was the common thread throughout the entire 150-something classmates. It was, let's go and have a great weekend and then begin our lives in college. So no feelings other than excitement and just making sure, like I said, from the bathing suit to the, you know, the outfit outfits. That was it. Yeah. Yeah. When I was watching you say that in the documentary as well, I was remembering my trip that I did after graduating high school as well. And me and my friends, about 20 of us, went to Spain. And that was very common if you grew up in London. Yeah. Usually went somewhere in Europe as well. And I was thinking back to that moment and going on that trip. And it was exactly that. We were excited. There were a group of 20 of us, guys and girls, and we were really looking forward to it. Yeah. We couldn't wait to celebrate. We couldn't be there. And so I can only imagine those same emotions and feelings that you were having. Of course, when she gets to Aruba, you find out when she's meant to be coming on the way home that she didn't actually make it to the airport. Right. And we hear you in the documentary say, wait, that's not like Natalie. That's, she's on time. She doesn't miss things. Yeah. What went through your mind at that time? You've gone from this celebratory, she deserves it. You're excited for her. What's your feeling when you get this call? When I got the call, it was immediate, sheer panic and trepidation feelings. I knew because Natalie, she might be early for something, but she was never late for anything. And she was such a role model student. So I knew one of two things instantly when the trip organizer said that Natalie's missing and didn't show up at the airport. I said, She's either been kidnapped, Or she's been murdered. I knew it was one or the other. There were no other options than kidnapped or death. Nothing. No. That was it. I was leaning heavily on the kidnapped, of course. But I knew it was, I knew instantly there was a daunting task ahead. Had no idea to the depth it was. But I knew it was bad. Yeah. This episode of On Purpose is presented by Amazon. You know that thing, the one you've had your eye on all year, adding to your cart, removing from your cart, adding to your cart again, and then again deciding you don't need it? Well, if there's any time to buy something off your wish list, it's now, during Amazon's Black Friday week. Treat yourself and everyone else on your holiday gift list with something special. New deals are dropping every day during Amazon's Black Friday week. Shop amazon.com. Slash Black Friday. I feel like in that moment, even just as you said that, I feel like it would be so natural to feel helpless and hopeless. But that doesn't seem to be where your mind went at all. Where did your mind and heart go in that moment? I think my mind went into sheer, just sheer fight. And it was, honestly, Jay, it was as if I could have, eaten bullets with my teeth. It was that kind of grit that came over me. And I just knew that I had to get to that island, and I had to be at that island today. And I started, it was Memorial Day. So, or, yeah, it was Memorial Day, right? Or the day after, sorry. It was Memorial Day, the day after we got the call. Yeah. And I was having trouble, you know, getting someone, because I wanted a pilot to take me to Aruba. And in my mind, Jay, I'd never been on a jet, a private jet before. So I was just thinking, like, just like a Beechcraft or a Loris, just a, you know, just a, just a, somebody who's a private pilot to take me over there. Well, everybody that we were calling, you know, had, there's a bottle to throttle, and it'd been after a holiday, and none of the pilots that we knew had had that time lapse between bottle to throttle. I don't know how I knew. I, but I just knew I had to get there immediately. And just went into that, I just went into hyper-focus mode, where I saw nothing other than the path ahead. And just, I could have, just like I said, a laser beam. I don't know how it came over me. I mean, God must have taken control of my life, because I can't, I can't do that on my own, Jay. I know I can't. That's, never had to do anything like that before. So there'd be no skill set whatsoever. So just went into hyper-focused mode and urgency, and just push, push, push. And I can even remember being in the backseat of the car when I got the call from the chaperone that, that said Natalie was missing. And the driver of it, Linda, a girlfriend of mine, I just didn't feel like she was driving fast enough. And I was yelling at her to get out. Let me take the wheel. You know, and I'm driving 120 miles down interstate, because we were right outside of Memphis. So I just left our family lake home in Hot Springs. And we still had probably about, probably from Memphis, we still had probably about three hours to make the drive. But I just knew I had to get there quickly. And in the same time, I had people like Matt, my son, and another, one of the ladies, that was with me, Marilyn, that was with me, her son, they began calling Aruba, trying to make connections to consulates, embassies, the local police department in Aruba. So everybody was really working hard, because I can remember I was driving this rental car and had a sheet of paper and a pencil, and I'm driving like 120 miles an hour, and I'm writing down names, Aruban police officials, or embassy out, you know, the C's there and where they were, and Curaçao, and driving. So I was just so hyper-focused. It's the only thing I can think of. I couldn't see anything else. And before this call, what did your day-to-day look like at the time? It was three women with no husbands with us, no children with us. We were on vacation. We'd been at my lake house, and our husbands and children, Matt was with, he was tucked away on a fun trip, and Natalie was tucked away in Aruba, I thought, on a fun trip. My husband at the time, they were all hunting. So it was just three girls having a good time. We'd left my lake house, we'd made stops, and just meandering home. And were you working at that time as well? Yeah, it was the very last closing out of my school job. It seems as though the energy that you felt, this kind of grit, this courage, this strength to go and figure out what was going on, and as you said, it came from God. But where did this gear come from? Because it wasn't a gear that you were used to using on a daily basis. The gear that I was coming out of, I was a pediatric speech pathologist for the Mountain Brook babies. I did three and four and five-year-olds. That's all I did is I played Candyland and Chutes and Letters, Jay on the Floor. That's all I did, you know, with the kids and speech pathology work. So my life was very simple and fun. I mean, that's all I did is games, you know, with children. I had babies for years. So never shifted into any kind of gear like that. No. When you finally get to Aruba, talk to me about how you, where did you even start? Because I feel like when you get a call like that, like you're saying your son's calling up consulates, you're trying to have friends call up, details of officials, but it feels like quite a overwhelming task to turn up somewhere and have to figure out where your daughter went and what happened. Talk to me about how you even started. Well, our first step was we had a wonderful friend, family friend from Mountain Brook that had a jet and said he could make it available for us. He was able to find a pilot and a co-pilot to take us down there and God bless him. I don't know if he'd want me to say his name or not, but just a businessman. And so once we had the jet ready and we all took off, only thing I grabbed was Natalie's senior portrait. That's the only thing I grabbed because I felt like I needed to, maybe need to show them who's missing, right? And we were just taking off. And I don't know, Jay, if it had to do with the time of 05. I'd have to ask my son about it. I don't know. He's a commercial pilot. But I still had cell phone communication. And we were in the air. I don't know how far we were in the air, but I still had cell phone communication with some of the boys from home. They were my brother-in-laws at the time, his sons. He had a set of twins that were there on the trip with Natalie. So one of the twins was relaying to me information about the person that Natalie was last seen with. He knew part of her. He knew part of his name. But there wasn't a sense of huge concern because this guy had spent the weekend with the classmates, just kind of placing himself with them, making himself one of them. Told them that he was also 18, did not live in Aruba. I'm just here like you guys having a good time on a senior trip. So they just kind of, well, he infiltrated the pack is what he did. So he just kind of needled his way into that pack of Mountbrook kids. So I still was a little bit, I'd only had, and I think this is a good part to say it because you kind of alluded to it, but only had one weird kind of moment of trepidation or something I've never had before. Our lake house that we had just left, we used to have like 30 kids there all the time. I had nieces. And so it was the lake house. The Reynolds home was where everyone came to just bring a sleeping bag or a blanket and everybody just piled in. So they were, my nieces were older. They were probably like 22. Natalie was 18 and they're a few years older than Natalie and they're friends and guys, but there was a huggy. And I'd have to go back and look, Jay, but I thought it said Carlos and Charlie's on it. It was either, it was senior frogs and Carlos and Charlie's. But I remember I went back upstairs. The lake house, everybody was all locked and loaded and I'd forgotten something on the table. And I remember I ran back up in our family lake home and there was a huggy sitting on the table. And I remember picking up the huggy and it was almost as if it was searing. It was almost like the huggy was searing into me and I could like reverberating back or reverberating back and forth. And I was like, it felt not good. And I just sat it down and I'd never felt it. I've never felt anything like that before, ever. set it down, grabbed my purse or whatever I left and was gone. Okay. So with that being said, when I get this call, as I said, from one of the twins, my brother-in-law's children, I wasn't super on high alert. I was just trying to listen to everything he said. But we were able, before I lost communication, I was able to get part of his name, last location scene, and the last car she was last seen getting into. So that's a lot of information. I had the person, I had the vehicle, and I had a little bit of information about the person. Not the full name, but I had part of the name. I can't remember if I had the urine or it was just part of the name. So I felt like, okay, lost communication and let's travel. I was very quiet. I didn't want anyone to talk to me. I didn't. I didn't want anyone to give me any, I didn't need any sympathy. I didn't want anything. Nobody speak to me because I was already in my, I had buried myself. My brain was not available for anybody else. Couldn't, nope. So I sat in the back of the jet and didn't say a word to anyone, the whole trip. But that, probably that next feeling of the daunting task, like you said, and how was I going to do this? I think everything came in full focus when we went to that it's a fixed based operation where you bring in a private jet. And they had a Homeland Security agent there when we got off the plane. And I remember going up to the Homeland Security agent and we were, there was a plane load of like six or seven men and myself and one of the CHIP organizers, the one that called me. And that my daughter is missing and we're pleading. And the Homeland Security agent never changed the position. The stance, there was nothing, Jay. It was just flat. And I thought, wow. And as we're pleading our case to this Homeland Security agent, three Aruban air handlers, they were fabulous. It was Claudio, Eldreth, and Alberto overheard our conversation. So they just kind of stand by the radio to see to be, if they hear of a private jet come in, that's what they do. They're Aruban, they're air handlers. So they just picked up the call, didn't know if we needed any transportation. But they were there. So they were kind of in the background, just, you know, you just kind of wait to see if the people coming in are going to need transportation. And they heard us. They did not know anything about this yet. No one. I mean, Claudio and Eldreth and Alberto did not know who we were. They knew nothing. But they picked up on the conversation and came up and asked us if we needed help, if we needed a van. And they had a big white conversion van that we were able to load up in. And that is where the search began. As soon as I left that Aruban airport and got in the back of that van with those three Aruban air handlers, that's when it all began. It's interesting to hear that you said you just wanted to be by yourself. Yeah. Because were you in your mind just mapping and planning how you were going to figure this out? And kind of managing your emotions and feelings and all the extremes that naturally would go through a mother's mind? What did you need that space for and silence for? I didn't want anyone to give me any sympathy. And they were, I could tell that they might be, I could tell. Why didn't you want any? Because I was maxed out and I couldn't take anybody that needed me any more than I already needed myself. Couldn't take it. So I didn't want anybody. Yeah. Yeah. You just have to lock yourself down. And I couldn't. Couldn't take on anybody. I didn't want anyone to say anything like they're concerned, they're worried. I'm sorry. Oh my gosh. No, I allowed no communication. Because like I said, I was already pretty needy and I wasn't going to take on anyone else's needs. I couldn't do it, Jay. That was it. Now that's very useful to understand and recognizing the fact that you could even recognize what you needed. In that moment. And you were able to protect yourself is really remarkable. You said you had three details, what you needed, which was kind of part of the name, the last car, the last place seen. How did you track either of those down? Did you go straight to the police? Did you like, what was the approach once you got in that van with the airport handlers? We went straight to the last place that Natalie was seen. We went straight to Carlos and Charlie's. We stopped by there. You know, there's a lot of little details along the way, but for the most part, you know, we picked up, we had to pick up another person, Charles Cruz, because we needed, we still needed a little bit more room than what the van could accommodate. I can't remember because we had the pilot and the co-pilot too. We had us all. And picked up another person. He was the island cell phone owner. So he owned the SATAR. That was their only wireless communication. So we picked him up. Thought that would be very helpful. And he was willing to do so. And we went there, didn't really, just kind of went there. I think your gut is just to go back to the last place that you know your loved one was seen. And that was it. And then really didn't accomplish anything there. And then we went on to the Holiday Inn Hotel. And that was time to get in front of the night manager at the Holiday Inn Hotel, because that's where Natalie had stayed. And just to see if anyone there on duty could help us with part of this name that we had. And also, I needed them to start making copies of Natalie's senior portrait, because I wanted to have that to pass out to pass out. I wanted to pass it to the police so they could know. I wanted the police to know what she looked like, because they're going to be looking for her, right? And as we're telling, pleading our case, trying to find Brenda was the hotel night manager. And as I was saying part of his name, she knew immediately who he was. She said, well, exactly. I know that's your Ron Vandersloot. He's good looking, looks like a Dutch Marine, and he likes to prey upon young female tourists. And I'm thinking, oh, wow, we're in trouble. He's what? You know, yeah, tall, good looking, looks like a Dutch Marine, but he likes to prey. upon young female tourists. That's what she said. She knew. She already knew he was a predator. Yeah. Yeah. So that was not good information. So from there, the handlers, we all just kind of split to divide and conquer. So one handler took a group to the beach to start hitting up beach bombs to see if they had seen anything or heard anything from that night. Another handler took a group to go find her. And she said, well, she's a good person. She's a good person. She's a good person. And since they had the name, they went to find his home. And one of the handlers stayed with Jug and I, husband at the time, to go. The hotel manager at the Holiday Inn was terrific and let us go upstairs to the private security room where they have all the screens and TV monitors of the casino activity to see if we could spot Natalie and your Ron. At the casino table, because that's where, I can say, I think it was one of Jug's nephews that had told us that he played poker with him. Many, you know, they'd been at the Texas Hold'em table together. So everybody kind of had a unique role. So as all three of us are doing these different avenues, we finally spot, and I'm on the phone with one of Jug's nephews, and it's probably one o'clock now, maybe, 1 a.m. And we spot them on video at the Texas Hold'em table. So I at least now had a full name. I had a visual of him. I got to see him on the camera. And Jug and I are coming down the stairs from the security room. And then Alberto and Claudio come flying up the stairs because they also now had an They had a license plate of the car, the gray Honda, and we were ready to go. So we said we got him. We've got who is responsible. Got the name. We have the address. We have license plate. So we all load up and we go to the police station. At this point, it feels like you're doing all the investigating and like connecting the dots and going to the places. At this point, the police is not involved yet. No, the police are not involved yet. They hadn't had any luck. Paul, one of the chaperones, he could not get past the beach authority. So it had never made it to the police. It's just really hard to get to the police in some of these foreign destination areas. They wanted the, they want their kind of like B team out there or whatever. I guess the beach patrol would be the B or C team. I'm not sure as far as legal help from there. And we probably got a pretty good read from the Aruban Air Handlers. You might better see what you can find at to the police i'm sure they were very instrumental in that they were they were great jay those three aruban and they were just doing that out of the goodness of their heart there was no yeah no dog in the fight for them i mean they know they just jumped in yeah they just saw you in need and your family and wow they were phenomenal that's why i definitely yeah give them credit you know there's some people i can't give credit but i can give them credit um then we went to the police station that's and uh bubali and so the men from home and a couple of the handlers went in to plead this to plead this case and tell them what is happening and it seemed like it took about i don't seem like it took about 30 minutes 25 30 minutes for the police to finally come out two came out slowly and uh we followed them to 19 montana your runs at the police station and we followed them to 19 montana your runs at the police station and we followed them to 19 montana your runs at the police station and we followed them to 19 montana and where one of the handlers had seen the gray honda that she was last seen getting into parked at this 19 montana which is your on vanderslough's residence this episode is brought to you by ag1 who gets your first 10 minutes every morning for a lot of us the answer is our phone our inbox everyone else's priorities you don't need a perfect routine you just need one anchor and that's ag1 one scoop mixed with water done it's a small moment that delivers the daily foundation of your life foundational nutrition your body needs and says i'm showing up for myself first and now there's also ag1 pro it's built on the same daily health drink foundation as next gen with five milligrams of creatine c-a-h-m-b and zinc carnosine if you train regularly or you want a little more from your routine that one might be your fit go to drinkag1.com forward slash on purpose and for a little more information check out our website at drinkag1.com forward slash on purpose this episode is brought to you by ultra making space for ourselves matters having time and room to try new things our feet benefit from more space too that's why ultra running shoes feature ultra fit design giving toes more room for comfort and balance helping feet feel stronger these aren't just running shoes they're perfect for walking hiking any pace any level they feel right from the first step go to ultra running.com forward slash on purpose and use code purpose 10 for 10 off that's altra running.com forward slash on purpose stay out there this episode is brought to you by google pixel in order to become happier more healed version of yourself you might need to make some shifts to be more present in your everyday life so if you're new to the channel please subscribe to the channel and hit the bell so you don't miss out on any future episodes this isn't always easy sometimes all it takes is one little thing on your phone to pull you out of the moment that's where my google pixel 11 pro comes in no matter where i am or what i'm inspired by i can speak naturally into my phone record my thoughts and never forget an idea or topic for a future podcast episode even if it's not a complete thought or i'm in public somewhere and don't sound super clear rambler will clean it up for me plus i can easily edit the message with my own voice or even add in my own voice emojis afterwards so i can send the notes to my team learn more about what the google pixel 11 pro can do at googlestore.com available on gboard for select countries and languages to users 18 plus feature availability varies and some require subscription for higher usage check responses results may vary this episode is brought to you by adt it's that time of year back to school back to work back to routine and when life gets busy it's nice to know your home is one less thing to do so i'll see you in the next episode bye to worry about adt wants to help you get back to home so you can focus on the little moments like dinner with family or catching up with friends with professionally installed customizable systems adt has your home security covered and with the adt plus app you can access your system from your phone to arm disarm it or check live camera feeds plus adt has the most company operated monitoring centers in the industry helping protect your home 24 7 and they're technology enables first responders to locate you faster in an emergency this is your time to make memories let adt handle protecting your home visit adt.com or call 1-800-ADT-ASAP when every second counts count on adt i mean when we see this moment in the documentary and you know i'm really hoping that our audience will go and watch this after the interview if they haven't already seen it you start talking to his father i believe first and you also get to see your own for the first time and you say in that moment that you were you were convinced he did it like you were sure that he did it at this point what was it about that meeting and that interaction that first time where you were clear that he was the person that was responsible because your ron graphically detailed the sexual activity he engaged him with her in the backseat of the car to these men from home and you can imagine how much of a problem that was things were getting very heated like fights about to break out i mean you're you're sitting there telling fathers you're telling seven fathers or i don't know how many were up there i don't i don't can't remember if it's eight or who knows but we had the pilot all of them all these men from home who are fathers and you're telling them you they know he was the last person seen with her both of these boys in that car and then he's telling them that oh well that's it i mean just shows he was he was an animal then a monster animal whichever you want to call him because that takes a lot of yeah that's a monster to sit there and admit that in front of them so you can imagine things were getting really super heated with the police standing there because the police are just standing there saying that don't talk to them that way you know you can't telling the men from home they can't do things like that and here he is giving graphic extremely sexually explicit graphic detail to explain what he did with her that night in the backseat of the car yep as she's falling asleep and waking up falling asleep and waking up and she's like oh my god i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry so yeah we knew he was involved did we know he killed her no i couldn't know that but we knew it was bad it feels like such a strange thing for him to do in that moment as you're rightly pointing out like what a yeah what extremely strange behavior to do that brazen yeah i mean just callous i don't know what the words are jay but yeah that's pretty pretty bold statement yeah and in a very negative way uh in a very uh shameful like you know not i i can't i still can't wrap my head around why and it and it shows you how hard he is as a person to understand but his father was somewhat would you say defending him or kind of he's kind of in the middle of you too right like your arms like coming out of the door and his father's kind of out there talking to you like is he brokering is he what is he doing i chose to remain in the van the men from home felt it was best for me not to come up there i could see it all going wrong i could see it all going wrong i could see it all going down you can hear anything i was getting reports back so they would there was one female that i think i said chaperone the one that called me uh she went with the men and she would come back and report to me but i stayed in the van with one of the aruban handlers just because it was probably a more appropriate place for me to be as the mother so i was getting not real time i could see them it was like you could see it all going down under the the lights there there was there was a either a street light or a some but i could see the illumination of them so i don't know exactly but i know that it took the police probably 20 minutes to get paulus to come out of the home but would think that was the one thing that was the most shocking by the time we got there which hadn't been didn't take us long except for the bubali police station the gray honda was gone it was parked inside the vander sleut residence but by the time we got there it was gone was this the first time you felt that natalie might not be coming home or were you still hopeful at this moment well it's so conflicting when you if you hear someone describing sexual activities you're thinking well okay he wouldn't admit to that if he killed her right sure i mean yeah yeah that would make sense yeah so i'm thinking she's he's placed her somewhere holding her somewhere or something you know i really didn't think i didn't go straight to murder i guess yes that's it we always we were felt like okay making some more steps getting a little bit closer like you said yes and you know just kind of the night ended with such a wild chase following you're on to the casino to show where he'd been and that was a bust you know we because you're on was not there at the home when we got there was just the father so the father and you're on we're on the phone together and you're on was saying i'm at the windham hotel i'm in the back texas hold'em room so we all load up and we rush to the windham we race back i'm like the first one back to the texas hold'em room and there's no he's not there he's not there he's not there he's not there and then all of a sudden we see the father standing at the entrance of the hotel windham saying nope he's at the other hotel so it was just a wild goose chase that we were on so we were constantly loading up running to the next place that you're on is supposedly on the phone with his father telling him where he is so i'm not sure what that was all about jay i really still don't know even this many years later unless they were doing something with that i don't know jay i don't know cleaning up i don't know why i don't know so it just the night ended with finally catching up with iran and iran was so adamant about where he dropped her off and he said i took her to the holiday inn hotel deepak and satish we dropped her off she got out of the car she stumbled she hit her head and two security guards came to help her up and she went into the hotel line so we thought okay that's it she went into the lobby and that was how that night ended we're about to leave in iran i'm out by myself with charles cruz the island satar owner and iran came out ahead of any of the men from home or the other handlers and he came to me at the back door passenger side door of the um of the car i was sitting in the back seat of charles cruz's car and i had nelly senior portrait and you that's when iran did this hitting of his chest and saying what do you want me to do what do you want me to do like i said give her back i want my daughter back and he goes well he just kept hitting his chest and saying what do you want me to do and you know what jay in hindsight it was what do you want me to do it's too late i've already killed her that's it i mean he'd already done it so that's why he was so pounding his chest saying what do you want me to do about it he just bludgeoned her to death 24 hours ago so yeah that's pretty shocking that's a monster yeah yeah i mean it's yeah it's it must be so much to as i was watching the documentary as well and you're speaking about these events and today i'm learning even more detail and i can't imagine what it feels like to have to go back to that moment and think about what you knew in that moment and then look at it back from the last two decades of time that you've had to reflect on those moments and know what you know now for certain now it feels emotionally just exhausting and there's so many times like that to where that's why to hear him i mean literally jay he just vomited up what he did it took him 18 years to vomit it up but when he did it was like everything that i had experienced and everything that i had heard it all made sense every single part of it crossed referenced so that's why we knew that's why we knew beyond the shadow of a doubt let alone every i mean you know all the legal work that went on to the proffer and to getting his confession but yeah did you feel the aruban police in those early days was doing everything they possibly could to figure this out aruba has one industry crop tourism tourist that's that's what they grow that's their crop so they would not want this to be a black mark on the island to have a murder of an of a tourist on their island was not going to be good was not going to be good there's no way we would have ever gotten even if iran would have confessed to them we wouldn't have known it jay because they were never you know the minister of tourism the chief of police they were so embedded and it was not going to happen it was not going to happen it was not going to happen it was not going to happen it was it was never going to happen no matter what we did they were protecting their money i mean that's how they that's all aruba's got they've got tourists that's it well they you know got their money laundering and sex trafficking and drug they're huge trampoline for drugs of course you know that i mean that's all they are is a trampoline for drug trafficking so they um yeah they weren't going to they weren't going to yeah when did you start to notice that it almost felt like the global attention natalie's case started to get that the media attention was putting pressure onto the aruban police department and also onto the aruban people when did you start to notice that oh this the world's taking this very seriously i think the more um potential uh suspects i shouldn't call them suspects but the more potential people that were uh that they were um coming in for questioning and arresting it was almost like a revolving door it was there was the list was endless so it it just made them start it made us look like they were doing something but they were really going every after everybody but the one person and the attention was what kept traction in the investigation so you know the media was a tool to get them to move to investigate and they kept the pressure on they kept the spotlight on which was huge yeah we see you being public and being interviewed and all these clips in the documentary of you being live on television and trying to you know raise awareness and talk about what's going on that can't have been easy and we see you in those moments breaking down extremely emotional like you know you're right in the middle of this case like talk to me about how difficult that was at the same it's almost like you've got to do it because you know this is what's going to keep the spotlight on the case but of course you're living through it at the same time talk to me about that experience for you i think i was so grateful jay that the media was concerned and they were feeling and seeing what we were it was just witnessing injustice and they could see the main person walking around and taunting them and everyone so i feel like i just learned quickly that if somebody asked me to do an interview i just said yes i mean there was just no other option because i realized the media really was actually not being treated any more fairly than i was i mean i think they had a hard time too you know dealing with them and getting information so i thought if they're asking i'm i'm interviewing i'm i'm going to do it and i can remember doing like seven interviews seven in the morning and seven at night i mean i would start at 4 a.m and go do hits on balconies search during the day close it out at night i would do seven hits at night so i'd be doing like 14 hits a day like a machine gun you know just point just you know yeah point and shoot point and shoot like it was so rapid fire you know i'd i would just walk in and they'd be all nervous they'd say because i'd be going from balcony to balcony and i'd be like oh my god i'm going to do this and i'm going to need a balcony or hotel they say you've got 10 seconds to live and i thought that's a lot of time to me i was like 10 seconds oh we're good yeah it seemed like a long time i was like okay let's go i don't know jay because that's not me you know so it was god took over he took over so those are not my words either jay i mean it had to have been god speaking through me even my son at the time said ask my husband at the time my ex-husband and said hey have you ever heard have you ever heard i think he's i think my husband said have you ever had your mother talk like that and he goes no no it must be god and my son said it must be god talking through my mother because he knew me that's not that wasn't me jay were you already a person of faith at the time was that a big part of your life of course yeah of course i grew up with you know the baptist grandmother and the methodist parents so the church doors were open we were there um they're singing the choir for 40 years and i was like oh my god i'm going to so yeah she dragged all those kids we went to sunday school and church we were raised in the church so yeah it was a big my parents were huge you don't miss that door that door is open you're there yeah what was your relationship with god like at that moment when you're living through the most horrific thing a parent can go through yeah oh after this happened with natalie yeah it's funny because you know how you hear these cliche things as you're growing up i don't you know have you ever heard of natalie i had one grandmother that was like baptist hellfire damnation my mother was god is good you know every religion has you know it's all the same and um my grandmother used to always say take your burdens and lay them at the cross and i was like i thought that was the silliest thing to take your burdens and lay them at the cross like and then then what then what when then what are you gonna do you know so um with that being said that's where that was the turning point and how i was able to work natalie's case and i was able to shift the burden of not being able to care for natalie right now to god because that burden was lifted from me at the stations of the cross i didn't grow up catholic i didn't know i wasn't familiar with the stations of the cross and the understanding of the depiction of Jesus walked to his crucifixion. And I didn't grow up with that because I was Methodist. We just, you know, unfortunately, I wish I would have, but I didn't. We just, not something that was talked about. So that's where that faith came in. And it was, you know, God first and Natalie were my driving forces. So God, Natalie and faith were my driving forces. And it was when really, Jay, honestly, I could feel the physical burden, the weight that was seated and situated on my shoulder lift from me that morning. It was on day four when I was done. You know, I hadn't eaten, slept or bathed in four days. That's pretty wicked. Yeah, it was getting wicked. I was about gone. So, but once I got that, I came back into the hotel and people said, where have you been? You look different. And I said, yeah, probably threw something out. And I said, we're going to work. That's what my grandmother said. So I laid my burdens at the cross. Like then it's God's turn. You got to take care of her because I got to go to work. So I went to work. That's what I did. I worked it, Jay. When you're on and the Calpo brothers finally got arrested, did you feel like you were finally going to get answers? Yeah. And then what did it feel like when they were released just months later? Yeah, it was crushing. You know, it was such a roller coaster. It was just moments of excitement. It's about time. It still felt like, you know, it was 10 days too long, but it was good. It was like, finally, finally, they're going to go get these men and do what should have been done from day one that we took him to the Vander, that we took ourselves to the Vander Sloat home. So it was very, you know, much elated that we are now having the police, you know, there, we finally got their attention and they arrested you're on. And now they're going to get me my answers. I want, that's what I thought. That's what I thought. It's time getting answers as quickly as we think that though, Jay, the prison sale, prison jail sale opened. Why was that? It was catch and release, catch and release, catch and release. I think it, it was almost just a show because the pressure of the media and the public, I think they just had to do it. They would catch him, release him, catch these people and release them. Yeah. You can earn three times the points on dining a $300 dining credit and access to reserve exclusive tables. Plus enjoy access to award-winning airport lounges for two guests and a $500 credit for the edit to use towards a collection of the world's best hotels. Learn more at chase.com forward slash Sapphire reserve cards issued by JP Morgan chase bank, NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. The American media was putting pressure on the Aruban police department and everything else. And then you've got you, you call the Calper brothers criminals too, which again, put pressure on the Aruban people. And then they started to feel kind of defensive about their people and what was going on on their turf. And it almost felt like, you had to put this pressure on in order to get answers because otherwise it just felt like they weren't really, they felt like they were doing the best they could, but it feels like they weren't moving fast enough for the pace you were moving at all. No. And behind the scenes, we were finding out things like timelines and we knew that security cards, security guards could not even have been potential suspects. And the police knew it too. So we were starting to learn things that were seemingly like a corruption. We were starting to think, okay, this is not just being inept or the inability to have the investigative tools. It was starting to feel like corruption. So that was presenting itself. And we felt like, yeah, it was almost as if it were a show presentation to look like we're doing something, but we're really not going to get anywhere with it. Wow. And I believe one of those things you found out was also that Yoran's father was a judge in training, right? Yes. We found out that he was also really good friends with von der Straten, the chief of police. So it was starting to feel, yeah, starting to not feel right. Too connected, embedded, no checks and balances in place. And they were going to take care of their island. So we were really getting that message loud and clear. Yeah. What's interesting is the American media was putting pressure onto them, but then the media started almost to shift the narrative to blaming Natalie's friends in that they should have been there for her. They should have figured it out. They should have helped her. We see some of the interviews with Natalie's friends in the documentary as well. Talk to me about what that felt like. I mean, I think it was a lot of pressure. I think it was a lot of pressure. I think it was a lot of like because that's still not solving the problem i like pointing blame that people who weren't there and obviously weren't the last people she was with yeah but talk to me how that felt when you're having all this noise i can't believe you're doing 14 hits a day doing all of these interviews there's one media narrative against the aruban uh police department there's the narrative of just what's happening in reality and then there's this narrative about natalie and her friends the media and i were actually being treated the same no information and i felt like sometimes if there's no information you're going to create if there's nothing to feed the story you're going to have to create something to feed the beast right it's just the nature of it and so there was this down time where none of us were getting information the media was not getting information i wasn't so it's kind of like okay i had this kind of shift a little and this is 20 years ago we really natalie's story taught us a lot we we know a lot more now than we did then and i think it was just the down time where they were unfairly blamed but i don't i i see why because you're still trying to keep this story so if it's not if it's not you're on if it's not these suspects that they're all being released and the aruban police are saying they don't have anything else well then it was just sort of the opening i think i don't think that they would have never been unfairly blamed if the aruban police had done what they were supposed to do so i do think it had to do with that bit of down time and plus we realize what we've learned natalie taught us and taught the world how to do it and i think it's a very important thing to do and i think it's a very important thing to do and i think it's a very important thing to do and i think it's a very important thing to do travel safer and how to travel when you travel with your friends you all leave together at the end of the night we didn't have any of those personal safety travel safety messages that we shared with our young adults in 2005 because the only thing they'd heard probably up until then was stranger danger right and well then what do you tell an 18 year old it's kind of hard the stranger danger is not going to work anymore right so and they're at that have a sense of complacency about their own status and you know the threshold of adulthood and and it's hard to tell them anything so the only way you can tell them is show them a very compelling and horrific story something that could happen when you don't all leave together at the end of the night so i feel like like i said natalie's taught us a lot and i know that through natalie's story she has saved countless lives because they've been able to learn either from their aunt their uncle or their mother or you know because these kiddos now that were natalie's they're 40 year old adults so they have this new generation of children so i think natalie's story was able to be passed down to at least one generation jay but you know what worries me is i hate for natalie's story to not capture another generation because personal safety doesn't have a shelf life mm-hmm so that was always you know so i know that's a long answer but no no we um we've learned a lot natalie taught us how to travel you know more safely so blaming the friends at the time i always try to remind people it wasn't they just watched her get into a car with somebody that she'd never seen they'd been like i said he placed himself among them infiltrated the group the taxis in aruba tragically are un were unmarked and unidentifiable then there was no identification of a taxi they all looked the same they were just regular street cars so that's a killer so you don't know you're you don't know so none none of the kids would have known that that's not a taxi i mean they're not identifiable yeah and we've learned a lot since then yeah yeah and and also it's almost it feels i mean we were talking about this as a team before the interview and just how there are so many of us that are young ages have been in precarious situations and maybe been lucky or put ourselves in difficult situations and been lucky or done something pretty reckless and been lucky and you always live with the belief that this doesn't happen to you and and especially when you're young yeah the truth is that the one time it happens it's soul-destroying and heartbreaking for everyone involved including the individual but we all walk around believing that we're the exception and these things don't happen to us or that we're being mindful enough or safe enough or whatever it may be and so i think it is really important what you're saying that what we can learn from what happened yeah rather than pointing the finger at yeah you know friends and everything else and i always tell young adults i mean their personal safety is up to them it's not up to your friends it's up to you though it's up to you to make a plan with your friends that you're all going to leave together you got to have a wingman you know even i mean i've done countless stories where young males have been murdered in foreign destinations so i've helped a lot of families so it's not unique to females so you can it happened to our you know happens to our young males as well these 18 year old boys and no one's immune i mean when evil comes in and you think about it you're on really did a he did a great job just think he placed himself right there with him set at the texas hold'em table all weekend you know you began to feel like he's one of you like he's your kind he's he's just he's a fine dude you know he's really nice friendly good looking you know who's gonna think he's a killer yeah yeah they didn't have that thought when you went back to alabama what did that look like for you how did that shift your life at that moment when they've been released you're not sure where this is going you go back to alabama you're trying to what did what did your life look like what was your day-to-day like then so on june 10th when i had made a pledge and i made a pledge to the fbi the aruban anybody i could that that i would take natalie's story to every it's june 10th and i would take natalie's story to every high school college podium on a wing and a prayer if they would just let me come and deliver a personal safety travel safety message to them because i wanted to prevent this tragedy from happening to others is a nightmare so when i did get back in alabama i stayed true to my pledge that i made on june 10th and i hit the airways day winging a prayer lived out of a travel size carry-on suitcase for almost two years i never that little bitty suitcase jay i was i was crazy person hit it hit it i mean i lived in airports i mean i hit it jay i just was determined though i was going to reach as many young adults as i could because i didn't want this to happen to their families so i did that i was busy busy and i was pulling aruba down with me at every high school because you know i had a two-fold right save the world save the kids and destroy aruba because i was just angry i was bitter yeah i mean why not be angry you would be angry because they released the suspects on the cloak of hurricane katrina when the united states is being devastated so they took us when it was down in its worst catastrophic event where people are suffering and dying and they released the criminals you know why as they said well the u.s is too busy with hurricane katrina so this is the time they opened the jail cells let them go they just turned them loose like dogs on the road that's what they did so i was angry when i left that airport in aruba i why i was even i was completely filled up with fuel jay i was ready to go to save everybody else gonna save the save the kids that's what i did did you ever take any time out for yourself to even process what was going on or were you just on a mission and out there like you said for those two years with that backpack did you ever have you ever had any time out for yourself to even process what was going on or were you just on a mission and out there like you said for those two years with that backpack did you ever have i was on a mission but you know jay when i think about it and i've listened to a lot of your podcast and you talk about you know healing and healing paths and honestly jay i i was on a healing path and didn't even know it because when you're making those steps i feel like that healing path was laid before me and i just got on it and i just kept taking one foot for putting one foot down and the next one to follow because that probably was the time for myself that was my that was my healing that was part of my healing journey it began with the mission of outreach yeah and i feel like we all have those healing paths laid before us it's just hard for us to get up and get on them but if you just have the faith and i always say the capacity of faith leads us through the most difficult times it does and that capacity of faith if we'll let it lead us through it and that's what i was feeling and and that the human spirit can accomplish anything with that determination so i felt like you know i was on that path and from the beginning you know i was i was determined by hope i was driven by love for natalie and i was acting on my faith that i would get answers and that i would just keep on this mission long enough so i think for me that was my healing time i know that sounds crazy but i think that was my healing time not being idle with myself but trying to help others that outreach and that yeah that was it yeah yeah you were turning your pain into purpose into helping others and using it as service and i think i mean there's so many studies to back that up it's it's not you know crazy or or wrong in any way there's so many studies that show that when we're choosing to serve others and help others it reduces the pain that we're carrying yeah and so it's a very real healing path yeah it's just not the one that we almost always go to because it feels like a lot of work and effort which is why it's so admirable and remarkable in your journey that that was your instant mission that you were able to in the height of your pain go out there to help other people that requires a different level of strength to do it as urgently as you did it's it's really remarkable it's really special and it saved my life i and i hope i you know reached a lot of lives you know and i always said jay only if i reach one life if i make a difference and for one other person then that's well worth everything that i went through yeah you know so at that point did you feel that your mission became helping other people and you were never going to figure out what happened with natalie did you feel like i have to move on from that and i'm going to go and help everyone else now but i'll never know well i actually had a two-fold mission so i was in my mind helping others saving others lives and delivering these messages but i was dragging a with me i was hammering them jay i just couldn't hammer them hard enough and i hate to say that but it's the truth because what we experienced was not what any parent should experience from a foreign destination that takes your money that wants to take your dollars but they don't want to help you in a horrific you know devastating event so i was i had twofold i was going to beat aruba in the ground because they deserved it i deserved it i shouldn't say that jay but it was the truth they they needed to know and i i because i was angry i was i was i think that's normal so that is very normal i think i was channeling that anger into reaching others yeah were you shocked when your aunt got in touch in 2010 and offered 250 000 to tell you where natalie's remains were yeah was i shocked i don't you know jay i just think i said i'm in i'm in but at that point where were you in your in your journey of knowing where natalie was like so 2010 it was since five years off yeah it was becoming a little bit quieter in the pounding of the podium i think i had released a lot of that anger in and because i was able to do good work i felt like so it was all kind of releasing and those cathartic experiences i guess that you have when you're purging all this anger and um so pretty quiet place it was funny i was in new york when i got the call i was in new york i think i had done i'd been invited to do a talk show and i don't remember if it was i can't remember who it was and um but i hadn't been invited or or i had to yeah to do one of the talk shows and i remember my girlfriends came with me we all came to new york and um and then i got the call i got the call from greta And so Greta had said, you know, Yaron wants to know if the reward money is still in play. Look, Jay, hell no. The $250,000 was, it's not like it was magic. No, you know, that was a pledge. That money was never delivered to me. That was two businessmen, two businessmen. Ross Perot did the million dollars for her life. And another businessman did the $250,000 for information that led to her whereabouts. So these were business owners that had this money for me, should I find those things. So no, the money, it's not like sitting there, but I just said, yeah, I've got it. I mean, why not lie, right? So I just said, yeah, I've got it. Let's do it, you know? Said, yep, money's still there. No, the money was not still there. I mean, but what do you do? Fight fire with fire is what I was thinking. He was, you know, I said, yes, I'm in. Yeah, wasn't shocked. I wasn't shocked at all from your end. I thought, let's do it. But you hadn't heard from him in those five years, right? That was the first time. No, I had not. But he had been recycling himself in the media a good bit, especially with the Peter DeVries, the Dutch reporter that did the, surreptitiously recorded him that Range Rover, that undercover sting, yeah. So he'd been recycling himself a good bit. I think he'd also made some noise or something in, he was in Bangkok for a while. He traveled to Asia. Because Yaron couldn't let it go. See, the killer always returns to the scene of his crime. He can't stand it. He can't stand to let it go. So they kind of keep regurgitating it. I think they like the attention from it. And I think to him, he thought, well, hadn't been caught yet. But he just couldn't stand it, Jay. He couldn't let it go. I didn't even, I never did any of that media. I didn't, I wasn't responsible. For any of that, I was quiet doing my pounding at the podium. I was out on a mission. I wasn't worried about Yaron. I was dragging a Ruben trying to save lives. But Yaron was continuously recycling himself and revisiting the scene of the crime. I don't think they can stand it. They just can't stand it, Jay. They got to tell somebody. I mean, I was shocked when you see the tape in the documentary of him talking to Patrick in the Range Rover. And he's talking about what he did and how he did it. I was shocked that that wasn't enough to bring him in. Like, I couldn't believe that he could pass that off as, oh, I was just trying to impress a friend and show off a little bit. And it was, I was, I was shocked. I was like, gosh, what does it take? Kind of like this whole documentary. And you say it was an emotional rollercoaster. When I'm watching it, I'm thinking, God, what does it take? Yeah. To, to, you know, to get someone to. Yeah. There again, Aruba. Didn't want to act on it. They said, no, it's not enough to act on. But remember, they were never going to have this happen. They couldn't have a murderer on their island. No, they weren't going to do it. When you talk about the extortion, I believe it was your ex-husband who was saying that, he was saying that he thought either, if you give him $250,000 to know where Natalie's remains are, either he will, obviously be revealing himself as the person who knows where Natalie went. Or you can get him for wire fraud because he's wiring you some money. Yes. Were you still hopeful at that point? Yeah. So here's how I looked at it, Jay. I looked at it as a win-win. And I know this doesn't sound good to people, but I looked at it to me, either A, going to have recovery of her remains, which would be a win. Jay, it would put this, this nightmare to end. And if not, if he's lying, I knew that extortion and wire fraud carried a pretty stiff penalty, 20 years, I think, for each count. I think that'd been 40 years. And I was thinking, okay, it's a win-win. Let's do it. I'm in. So I said, yes, let's go. And again, it's another episode that I want people to see in the documentary of just another lie, another rollercoaster moment for you and the family. And I just, it's so painful when you're watching the documentary, that you just keep coming up against, like whether it's the discovery of someone WhatsAppping Greta and it's Natalie's blouse, supposedly, and it's sent to you. And just, there's so many moments in the documentary where I'm heartbroken for you because it feels like you're getting some information and then it's being taken away or you're going to get an answer and then it's being taken away. And then of course, we discover that Yaron's done this again with a young girl in Peru and now he's in a hospital. And now he's actually convicted and going to go to jail in Peru. I guess my biggest question, and I want people to see that part in the documentary and to really watch the documentary to see how it all unfolds. My big question to you is, how did you have the patience for 18 years to wait for the answers? And why was the answer so important to hear him actually admit what he did? Well, I think with answering your first question is how did I have the patience? I think, I hope the documentary shows the power and the determination of the human spirit and it can accomplish almost anything. And I felt that as long as I kept true to my mission, seeking answers and acting on faith, as I had talked about, that I would get answers. One day, I knew they were there. I knew the answers were there. It was just a matter of getting them. Yes, there were a lot of hurdles to pass along the way. The path was long, but getting justice takes a lot of work. 20 years might not even be that long in the scheme of thing for some law enforcement that do these cases. So I felt like I was just gonna keep moving forward, Jay, till I reached my answer. I landed on the island of Aruba wanting answers and I stayed true to the mission and 18 years later, finally got the answers I'd been so desperately seeking. And does it sound like good news to hear of your child, Natalie, my daughter, being brutally murdered? But it was the answer I had to have because the not knowing for 18 years was much more torturous than hearing the answer. I had to know the answer. Wow, so you're saying that the 18 years of waiting was more torturous than even hearing about the horrific events that happened? The horrific way in which she was murdered. Yes. As shocking and as brutal as it is, parents have to know. They just need answers. They need to know. I think when people go through things like this, and I couldn't agree with you more, the documentary shows the undeniable strength of your heart, your character, your unbelievable drive, a mother's love that is unbelievable to witness, honestly, when I'm watching it and getting to meet you today, it's such an honor for me because I was taken aback by just how much you fought when it felt like everything was against you. What's your relationship like with forgiveness today? What does it mean to you? What does that experience feel like? I think forgiveness to me is finding a path of gratitude and that's something I'm still exploring. And I think it's a part of the healing process and being able to, to express that gratitude to others. And I was not a lone wolf here. I traveled in a large pack and I traveled with people, the public. I had millions and millions of prayers that were supporting me for people I didn't even know. I had also in my pack, politicians, celebrities, businesses, owners, unfamiliar friends, friends, celebrities. So I embraced all that. I mean, that was my source of strength and they are, who sustained me. So it wasn't like just a mother on a mission. You know, when you have millions of people praying for you and that's really what we do as countries, you know, when we hear of devastating losses, we go into prayer for this family to support them. And the family doesn't know that. They are not going to ever meet you or know who you are, but they will feel those prayers. So I think that's what kept me going. And it just never wanted, I never wanted, you know, I wanted people to see it was not just a lone mother. I wasn't a lone wolf. And, you know, I had God and faith first and Natalie. I had Stephanie in front of me too. I had two young girls that had been brutally murdered. So God and faith and prayers and sustained me and pulled me through and I got the answers I had been so desperately seeking for 18 years. Beth, what have I not asked you today that you, that you deeply want for people to know or that you deeply feel in your heart today that you want to share? You seem so connected to yourself, so connected to God, so connected to being here for a mission and a purpose. What's on your heart and mind that you really want my listeners to hear from you? I really want the listeners to hear two things. I mean, one, of course, is the capacity of faith. And I want them to understand that that capacity of faith, it can, it can lead them through, through the most difficult times it can. I just want them to know the human spirit is so determined and it's so strong. It can accomplish anything. And I also want them, you know, I'm hoping my message will inspire. I'm hoping it will leave people feeling victorious to see what the human spirit can accomplish. This wasn't just me. You know, this was God, faith, your human spirit. I hope they see that because everyone can be experiencing, whether it's an illness, sudden illness or injury or missing or murdered loved one. We all hurt the same in all of those devastating life events. And I want them to also use my story not only as maybe feel some empowerment from it, but it's also a great personal safety message because we can never tell our young adults or, you know, at any age. You can never have too many reminders of personal safety. We can never have too much awareness. So it's a great story to share with others and, you know, feel. So not only personal travel safety, but to feel empowerment or to feel feelings of victorious. I watch every movie out there, every Academy Award winning movie. And I don't care what language it's in, Jay. I don't care if it's Arabic, Dutch. I don't care. It doesn't have to. I don't even have to have subtitles. It's how it makes me feel. And I hope it makes them feel victorious in some sense of empowerment. Watching it, Beth. I can confirm for you. It felt empowering. It felt heartbreaking. And overall, it felt just an undeniable capturing of human strength. And so I'm moved by you and your presence and moved by your story. I really hope that you feel Natalie got the justice she deserves. And honestly, I'm in awe. I'm in awe of you and feel so humbled and grateful we got to do this together. Thank you so much. Thank you, Jay, for allowing me to share Natalie's story on your platform. I listen to you every morning on the way to work. I'm sorry. I do 15 hours a week. I think you're in my head. So you're phenomenal. And thank you so much. Well, I'm extremely humbled and I can't wait for everyone to see this documentary to protect the people that they love and also realize what's possible with the capacity of faith, which I love that you said that. It's a really beautiful reminder. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.