Best of Sports Gossip: Jordon Hudson called us and it didn’t end well

Check, check, testing. One, two, three. I can't believe we're doing this. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh man. Okay, all right. Well, see you on that sounding. Okay. Okay. Hi, Charlotte. Madeline, hello. We are back. And our first Thursday episode. Oh my god, it is with the athletic cow. We officially joined the Athletic Podcast Network, which is just so incredible. We are so thrilled to be here. Yes, thank you to everybody for all the kind words. We are thrilled that we could bring a play about Luca Donchic and Rob Polinka to the Athletic in our first episode. Yes, only the finest. Yeah, that felt important. It was very important. Speaking of important, yeah. Well, if you've seen the title of this episode, you probably know what we're going to talk about. We have had the absolute craziest past week and a half, two weeks. Yeah, this has been okay. So, you know what, let's just say, Jordan Hudson, Bill Balachek's girlfriend, Bill Balachek head coach of UNC, former Patriot Head Coach, Jordan Hudson, his 24-year-old girlfriend who's been in the news. She called me out of the blue two Saturdays ago at 907 PM. Yes, she did. Which, so talk about our reveal. We, and we'll tell you the whole story. Yes, we spent the last week. We talked to her for five hours over the course of last week. Just to preface, like, this is our recollection, our feelings, our sort of guesses, as to what was happening about through this whole situation. Yeah. We are not here again to slander Jordan. We said that at the top of the MIS main episode. We still stand by that. You know, anything that we say is not meant to be a personal attack, I'm sure she is a very different experience and take away from her experience with us. And so, we want to put that out there. This is a subjective situation, but we feel like we have no choice but to say what happened because she's the biggest story in sports. Yeah. And we said that to her. And we said one of the times we talked to her that we were going to be talking about this if she didn't come in the show. And she is not here. So, yeah, we thought that this episode was going to be an exclusive interview with her. Yeah, it's, it is not. Yeah, it's. She's not here. She's not here. We are. Yes. So it's going to be a very different episode. But I think a revealing one nonetheless. Yes. Me, me thinks. Me thinks. Me thinks. Me thinks it must be. Me thinks I feel crazy. Anyway, little crazy. And as I mentioned at the top, we joined the athletic podcast network and the athletic factors into the story, which we will get to. Yeah. But just need to call that out. Yeah, shout out to our new, new family, new family. All right. All right. Speaking of the athletic and journalism, I have been a journalist for 15 years. I've had a lot of very weird experiences. I once wrote an ATV in the backwards of Tennessee with an NFL coach. I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. No, like the list I crashed a wedding in Cleveland in the mascot of the Cleveland Guardians as a hotdog. Well, of course. Yeah. You know, the list goes on. And this is the weird, this is the, this has been the strangest experience of my career. Yeah. This is certainly the strangest experience of my career. I worked in media and entertainment for over a decade. And I think this has truly been a masterclass in PR and fame and what it means to be catapulted into the spotlight and what you do with that fame. And it is just been a fascinating and bananas. Yeah. And I think too like a really interesting look at journalism in 2025. Yeah. What does what does it look like? I think very strange that we are now, we are a part of the story. We're not just reporting on the story. We're not just trying to make sense of the story. Like we are in it. And by doing this show, especially like we're really in it because we have to tell you what happened because we've been covering the story. You know, it's like it's a sort of inception of journalism in PR and, you know, you've worked in, you understand the machinations of fame and celebrity and behind the scenes of that. I've been sort of on the other side. So our, our heads been spinning up the, the key takeaways from this experience, understatement of the century. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, just a little bit of backstory on our history with Jordan Hudson, just in general. We started talking about Jordan Hudson and Bill Bell check back in October. I believe it was October 8th. And in that episode, I suspected that Jordan was running Bill Bell check's Instagram account because he had accepted a collab post on Instagram, which I was like, there's literally no way Bill Bell check knows how to accept a collab post on Instagram. Yes, for a little background as a lifelong Patriots fan. So if you didn't, if you liked me, now you don't, Bill Bell check is famously has been famously anti-social media, didn't like the media, his slogan when, when the Patriots, you know, the 2010s was dear job, was no days off. You know, he once gave a press conference where he answered every question with we're on to Cincinnati. This is not a man who has been known for his, his eloquence in front of a microphone or his desire to speak to the public. No. And then he, so he joins Instagram. And there are a couple posts too that just seem there was one with like a crackly green back. Yeah, it was like a canva background. And I was like, does Bill Bell check know how to use canva? Like what is happening here? And so we just suspected like Jordan was running his Instagram account, which she was. Yeah. So that was like our first kind of taste of the Jordan Hudson story. Right. Well, she's also 24. So you'd think sort of internet literate. Yes. And we certainly have, have talked about her because of her Instagram presence, mostly I would say. Yeah. Also, there was the CBS interview, go watch our previous episodes. We've done four that are specifically about Bill and Jordan, including one where we went to the mismaned pageant in which Jordan competed and came in second runner up. Yeah. We were there. We felt like we had to go. Yeah, it felt like it would do the story to service if we didn't go. I was like, we got to get the full picture of what's going on here. Right. Especially because we have been trying to cover this, keeping in mind that she is a person. Right. She's a young woman. You know, we didn't know what kind of coverage was going to come out of that. If people were going to look at the holistic, the whole picture. I mean, a lot of our episode about the mismaned pageant that Jordan competed in was about the mismaned pageant. Yeah. Yeah. Like not about Jordan because we got very into it. And I think it's really important to take things like that seriously, things that, you know, maybe people might deride as like, oh, this is just this, this feminine silly thing. It's like, no, this is what these women have been working very hard to win. Yeah. Yeah. And we wanted to bring that perspective. I think we did. I think we did. I don't know that Jordan things we did because, um, I mean, basically, she's, she's, she's been our white whale. Truly. It's like, like, I am Ishmael. You know, like, this is what, this is, she, like, the, the thought that we would ever talk to her, um, it was because no one's talked to her to our knowledge, no one has spoken to her. So for her to call Charlotte out of the blue was so unbelievable. Like, it was just, when Charlotte told me I was just like, what is, are we being pranked? Well, like, what? Right. And, and I think too, you know, it's, it's interesting because she never responds to requests for comment from journalists. Um, she, I think we suspected before we spoke to her, just looking at her social media. It's very much her against the world, her against the media, her and Bill against the media. Yeah. Um, and, you know, I think too, she, she seems to want it both ways of, you know, she, she's a public figure. Yes. She's a hundred thousand followers on Instagram. She poses on red carpets. Yep. She attends the NFL honors with her boyfriend, Bill Bell check on national television. Front row. Yep. Um, and at the same time, there's, you know, this, she, we, we hadn't heard her speak. And, and I was thinking the week before she called, um, the, part of why I think she called, we, she followed us after the Miss main page. She had followed us after the Miss main pageant, which we had announced a few weeks after that. And then subsequently sent her two messages to come on the show, which obviously weren't responded to. And then later on, I realized she had unfollowed us recently. And I said, I was like, I feel like we should talk about this on the show. Yeah. So we did. And then we posted a clip on Instagram and tagged her Instagram handle in the post, being like, Hey, are you coming on? Like, come on the show or not? And then, uh, I think it was the next day. No, it was the next day. It was the next day. We posted that on a Friday. And then the next night is when Jordan called Charlotte. Um, so she definitely saw the post. Yes, she, she definitely saw it. And I had been thinking, how strange it was that the only time we have physically seen her was at the Miss main page and the only time we've heard her voice really has been the Miss main pageant and a CBS interview where she interrupted the interviewer talking to Bobella check when the interviewer asked how they met she said we're not talking about this and that's kind of the moment that this whole story exploded beyond the sports world I would say yeah oh for sure so okay that let's get into it oh my god my heart is I'm like hard to found okay so let me set the scene to Saturday night it's a Saturday night I am you know my husband and I had a lovely dinner a steak from Dell P.H.'s butcher shop up on it you love a steak yeah I love a steak I had a Charlotte I went to dinner and we went to Hillstown on Tuesday and Charlotte got the biggest steak I've ever seen and just demolished it ate the whole thing I was like what is happening I was like yeah go for your steak queen I was hungry and I love steak maybe that was maybe that was that was like your first solid meal no no that right we yeah we're like we've had no appetite so just doubting smoothies I haven't been sleeping because all this is a crazy great overlap because like keep in mind we are talking to Jordan for hours at a time on the phone on FaceTime we are also coordinating with the amazing team at the athletic to launch our show on Tuesday also figure out okay well I guess this is what this episode is gonna be on Thursday when are we gonna record that here we are so Madeline and I have been having a lot of smoothies a lot of smoothies like I don't really have an appetite so I did eat breakfast so did I so did I we're good breakfast the champions we're coming up we're at the press to the hill yeah so okay so I lovely dinner my husband and I are just sitting on the couch trying to figure out what to watch I think you know gave up for a sec as married couples are want to do yes and we're just looking at their phones and a number that is not in my phone pops up yeah but it didn't say spam it didn't say it did you know call wasn't silenced and I was like okay that's weird and I was like should I answer it and Tyler my husband was like no okay and then they call back immediately after I press the red don't answer button yeah and something in me I was just like I don't know I'm gonna answer I have like a spidey sense I was like I'm gonna answer this so I answer the phone I'm lying down on the couch on my back to paint a picture I answer the phone and there's a woman's voice on the other end she says I say hello she says hi I was like hey she's like like is this Charlotte and you know I think the way that my mother taught me to answer the phone in the 90s when someone says you know is this Charlotte you say this is she yes I said this is she we had a landline yeah yeah and then and then this woman goes how are you and I was like sorry again in the way that my wonderful mother taught me to answer the phone may ask who's calling please great great line great line I know I have manners yeah of course and this woman goes this is Jordan Hudson so I my my heart starts beating pretty quickly because like this is this is like a poster started talking and came off of the wall yes yes this is this is like you're sitting down with big foot after no one's seen him forever ever because he's big foot right no like there's no it's like a big foot it's like a mysterious figure has appeared it's like you've seen a ghost honestly yes you I feel like you saw ghost and that ghost was Jordan Hudson yeah so I'm trying very hard to kind of not betray that I am a little rattled by this yeah and she'll so she keeps talking and she goes yes it's Jordan the president of your universe unbelievable put it on a mug and I said well Jordan yes you certainly are the president of our of my universe I'm like what my husband meanwhile was like I'm malding to him I'm like Jordan and he's he was like he's on the couch and and he was like what and he's like he gets up he's all ghosts so he gets up he walks into the kitchen he walks into the bedroom he sits down at the dining room table which is right here he gets me a notepad and paper he's like he thinks I'm being pranked yeah he thinks someone is pranking me and he's like worried about what's happening and I was I'm like no it's really her I'm like trust me it's her um and I think I think she said it's the president of your universe because in the mismanement page and do you remember no when you talked about seeing her for the first time you say it's like seeing the president oh my god wait yes call back Jordan okay I like that oh yeah I said it's like seeing the president of the united states which also like right now yeah in this climate like that's it that speaking of the 90s like it would it was like seeing the president in a 90s movie yes yes you know you know how I felt seeing her and then I would imagine how you felt when she called was a few days ago Charlotte and I went on a walk and they were filming the devil wars brought it to near us and I it is my favorite movie of all time and half what you can come on the show at any point and seeing her film the devil was brought a sequel was unbelievable I was like I can't believe I'm witnessing entertainment history film history right before my eyes I imagine that's what it was like kind of not really it was actually it wasn't the word well I got in an opposite way yeah not in a way the wario experience of seeing and half the way in the devil was probably it really was like but but at the same time like I she is a source I am a journalist like she called a reporter and so everything I'm doing I'm I'm saying assuming she is recording me I'm assuming like I didn't say I I tried to keep saying like I hear you blah blah and it was unclear to me why she was calling it first and I can't I couldn't tell if like I tried very hard to just be normal which I think I actually succeeded in somehow it was like every moment that I've been on live TV all of my journalism trade it all just like kicked in and it was and I was like hey Jordan how are you where are you right now yeah and my husband was like I couldn't believe like how normal you were talking to her and I was like thank you and she she seemed like I couldn't tell what the tone was she would oscillate between like friendly but there was clearly like an edge to her voice where she kind of wanted to let me have it it turned she wanted to talk about our miss main episode she wanted to talk about our opinions around the pageant yeah and there were three main questions she had that you know and she's talking in circles using a lot of legalese like words sort of like her Instagram captions where the word salad yeah and where where they it's not like exactly the correct word for what I think maybe she's trying to say and she wants to know why we said that her competing in the miss main pageant would take away the platform and resources from someone else competing in the pageant who needs them more there's like a whole package of you know pageant training and all of those shoots beauty treatments yeah if you want if you want the pageant and also you know the title of miss main and and I think it's not an opinion Jordan is more famous than miss main could ever make anybody absolutely um she wanted to know why we said that she also wanted to know why we said that we felt that it was her and Bill against the world um and she also wanted to know why we didn't report that the winner of the miss main pageant a woman named Shelby was not actually from main yeah which we did report in the following episode I looked into it found out that Shelby was actually from San Diego um talked to a few of the women involved in the pageant not Jordan about the practice of state hopping where people will compete in these pageants because I think it'll be the easiest one to win so that they can try to be in miss USA um and we reported that on the fall of episode so I was like we did I said look if there's anything we've gotten wrong fact wise like I would love to know like tell us we'll correct the record and she never had a a thing no which concrete which became a common theme of our week with Jordan yeah sorry so anyway so this is I'm on the phone um at minute 37 it's I started to get a little bit like this is indulgent and this is not productive like either and I was like we need to I would like to speak to you with Madeline on the phone she kept asking me these questions being like why'd you what was it and I was like I'm not comfortable answering that without Madeline here yeah also you know it's like we're not gonna just tell you like this is either reporting and you're telling us something we're not just gonna tell you our opinion no no so I finally was like look Jordan I have to hop off but like we'll put you on a text with Madeline and with me and we'll find a time to talk this week she's like okay great and then she goes Madeline is gonna flip when you tell her that I call which I guessed when Charlotte told me this I was like oh my god first fall she knows my name she certainly does now President of our universe um so okay now your perspective I call you yes I FaceTime you Charlotte calls me again at this point it's like what 10 pm on Saturday night I'm minding my business chilling at home and and I think I was wearing like a sweat suit yeah you're wearing sweat too yeah in bed in bed in bed glasses on glasses on of course yeah not these ones these are my like recording glasses I have like my nighttime glasses which just which I felt Charlotte about these hurt Madeline's head they - Well, these glasses hurt her head, but she insists on wearing them to record. - They look good. - No, they did. - They're prescription glasses. They're not fake glasses for the record. They're prescription glasses. But the kind of hurt my head. Any glasses words out there know. You know, they just kind of dig in your head and no matter how much you stretch them, whatever. Anyway, so I have my nighttime, my heavy duty glasses. - Yeah, she's got the safety goggles on. - Safety goggles in the night, so I have my safety goggles on and my sweat suit. Charlotte facetimes me, I'm in bed. I answer, first of all, I'm like something's wrong. - Which, I guess in hindsight, something kind of was wrong. - But I said, I think I said, you are not gonna believe what just happened. And I really do look like I've seen a ghost at this point, also, and I was like, just see, like everyone's okay. - Yeah. - 'Cause I think it presented as like, somebody died. - Yes, it was, that's what it felt like. It was an emergency. - Yeah, it felt like an emergency. The look on Charlotte's face was like, a deer and a head in headlights, but also giddy, and like a little just like, wired. - Yeah, so Charlotte tells me, I just got off the phone with Jordan Hudson, and I think my jaw was just on the floor. - You actually, it was in the earth. - It was like, you had rocket boosters underneath, you like levitated out of bed, and just like, just like exorcises over the phone, you know, like really, really low angle. - I think I was just like this angle, you know, and you're just like half your face is in the shot. That's what it was like. - So I couldn't, I could not believe it. For so many reasons, especially considering, we had just posted that Instagram the day before, and she clearly saw it, and then felt compelled to call Charlotte, and I love that like, she called you like late at night, like on a static, - To catch you off guard or something. - I would assume. - Felt intentional, also at one point, I heard another woman's voice in the room. - Right, right. - And I was like, oh yeah, okay, something's weird. - Yeah. - Also, she said on that call that she thought that it seemed like we had been trying to cover this from more of a human interest standpoint than other people she said, you know, you guys have gotten as close to the truth as anyone. You're still very far away from it, but like, I think she respected that we had been trying to, or at least at the time, she felt that we were trying, yeah, that's a tease, folks. - Ties on the best. - At the time, she felt like we were really trying to do this. She also loved that we had said that she is Bill Belichick's tree pain. - Tree pain is Taylor Swift's red-headed publicist. - Yeah. - She said, I love that you said that I'm like, Bill's tree pain because I am. - Which iconic. And you know what, she is. I still stand by that. - And she said, everybody loved Bill's media presence before they found out I was behind it, yeah. Yeah, so. So Charlotte tells me, I'm like, freaking out, I can't believe it. And I'm like, oh my god, well, what do we do? You know, it's like, she called. Does she want to come on the show? Like, she clearly seems to want to like correct the record, but it's unclear. It seems to be about the Ms. Main pageant, but like, does she really want to actually come on? So we make the decision to not reach out to her on Sunday. We're like, let's take a beat. It was just so shocking. I like couldn't, I just couldn't believe it. I was like, let's take a beat. - This whole thing felt like the early stages of dating someone. - Yes, but like, you know, where you're like, well, I can't be too thirsty. - No, and you're like, well, we got to like wait a day to text. - Yeah, yeah. - But like, that's fun. This was like, yeah. - Anyway, anyways, Monday. Monday, you have like a miss call from her and a text and in the morning, and she's like, call me back, basically. And Charlotte and I decided, well, why don't we just send her a group text to say, like, we'll get on the phone with you later in the afternoon. - Which is what I said I would do when we talked on Saturday. - Yeah, so we do, don't hear anything. Don't hear anything, but then like around like, I don't know, 115. We were gonna call our one. - Actually, it was 117. - 117? - Receipts? - Receipts, timeline. - Everything, jeez. - All right. - Okay, real housewives. So Charlotte and I were just sitting here at the dining room table and I was like, we just got a caller. Like, this is like, will they won't they, dating? I'm like, let's just, let's get, let's book a date. - Right, get on. - Also, because you were, you had a feeling that there was a world in which she was calling because part of her wanted to come in the show. - Yeah, I had this, yeah. It felt like she did. So, we call her, she doesn't answer, she calls us back. - Yeah. - And she wants to FaceTime. Which, you know when you're not prepared to FaceTime, like, you know when someone calls, they're like, can we face him? And you're like, you're like, well, I'm not ready. I wasn't mentally prepared to FaceTime, but we were like, well, okay, fine. And it was a legit reason she said, I want to be able to tell which of you is talking. And we were like, well, that's fair. We do just sound a lot alike. - Yeah, sometimes podcast listeners are like, I can't tell you apart. And I'm like, well, yeah, doesn't matter. Yeah, so we get on FaceTime with her. Couldn't believe it. Yeah, I know, I knew Charlotte had spoken with her, but to then just see her on FaceTime, again, it was like seeing the President of the United States, like I said at the pageant, like, I was just like, oh my God, it's Jordan Hudson on FaceTime on the porch of a big house. Who's house? I don't know. We don't know. She ever confirmed that she was sitting on a porch swing. - Yeah. - And again, this becomes a circular conversation. - Yeah. I mean, what's your initial reaction? 'Cause I had already spoken to her at that point and had the feeling of like, where is this going? - Yeah, it felt, so the beginning of the conversation felt a little circular. I felt like 30 minutes into it. By the way, we talked her for an hour and a half. Like 30 minutes into it, I was like, she seemed to feel a little bit more comfortable and she was just kind of talking at us, but it did feel like it made a little bit more sense, and maybe that came with just her being a little bit more comfortable talking to us. - Right, by the end of the call, it's like, we've been on the phone for like almost two hours and we're like, okay, what are we doing? Like, what is the point of this? And so I basically make the case to her. I'm like, come on the show, you want to correct the record about Ms. Mangpagin and who knows what else? Like, come on the show, correct the record. Let's talk about this. Like, that's fair, you can come on, you know? And she seemed open to the idea of coming on. - I think it's important to note that there were times when we were talking to her where sometimes it didn't make sense and there were sometimes these moments of lucidity where she would say something about what it's been like to be in the public eye and the fame where we really empathize with her. - Yeah, we were like, oh man, this has gotta be wild. And we wanted to give her a chance to like tell us who she was. - Right. - Because, and it would only have been fair if she came on the show. We've been talking about her for eight months. Like, of course, she should have a right to come on and be like, what? Why'd you say this? But that didn't happen. So anyway, so Tuesday we don't hear from her. Wednesday we don't hear from her. We leave it with her if like, she's gonna, she's like, I think we can make this happen and she wants to do it soon. Yeah, and we're like, okay, great. So we text her Tuesday or we called her Tuesday, she didn't answer. We text her Wednesday, nothing, just dark. And this is where it really did. It felt like a toxic relationship. - Yeah. - Also, both of our husbands were away. - They're away. And so we're just like, kind of like out on our own. - We were like, on an island. - Astronauts, loosed from a spaceship. - Yes, when they're trying to bring them in hands, being like, how and what do we do? - What was that movie? The space was a George Clooney, who was in space? No, you know what I'm saying? I mean, they're like a lot of space. - First man? - No, there was one there in space and they're like, floating off. Oh, what is that called? I don't know. - Whatever. - Someone's gonna tell us in the comments. - But both of our husbands separately when we were telling them about this experience, they were like, sounds kind of like you're in a toxic relationship. - Yeah. - It felt like that. - And that's what it felt like. It like, maybe it partly rattled me. - Yeah. - And it like, harkened back to like, some people I dated, where I was just like, oh my god, as I do it. And it felt like what it was to kind of add on to that was like, it was all consuming. - Yeah. - Which is like being in a toxic dynamic. It was all consuming. Like I said, we were having a liquid diet. Like, we couldn't eat normal solid food because we were just like, so on edge and so consumed. Like, it was like, 'cause we were just like, I can't believe this. Like, is happening. Is she gonna come on? Is she not, what is she even saying? Like, and part of it is because this would have been such a huge get to sit down with her. And we set as much to her and she clearly knew it because she was the one calling the shots about communication. We were also trying to stay professional. Like, hey Jordan, let us know what time could work. We've cried our schedule for it. Like, because this is journalism, she is a source. It felt like she kept wanting us to cross some boundary of like, sometimes she was like, she was asking for guidance or like a friendship and we'll get into that more. But so Thursday, we were like, we need to call her. And up to that point, we wanna preface this, the athletic comes back into this. That she didn't know we were signing with the athletic podcast. Obviously, I don't know why, which she know. But we felt like, we had to tell her that this was happening. We didn't wanna like, surprise her. That was okay, Mountain had like, athletic branding, not like our, you know, or just our old branded basically. Right. So, we get on the phone with her. And I can't remember exactly what we said. I think we just said, hey, we wanna be transparent with you. Because it's like, clearly there had been some trust built up, but we also like just couldn't read her. I think even though it felt like she was opening up to us more than maybe someone else in our position. I don't know, could be wrong. Still, again, like not telling us concrete facts, more about her opinions about situations where you're like, I can't even verify, like what? Right. But, so we tell her we're joining the athletic podcast network and she was not pleased. She was like, the athletics been awful to me. She really hasn't liked the reporting. Yeah. It was like a deal breaker. She said, I don't wanna make the athletic any money. Yeah. And we were like, we were like, first of all, like this show is still, like this is still our show. This is still the show. Yeah. Just, you know, We did some weird stuff in our first episode with the athletic. If that doesn't prove to you that nothing's changed, it was, I think too, because we understand media, we were like, this doesn't change anything. But to her, the principle of it, and she got very hung up about that, in other times, she was talking about, can so-and-so use my likeness? Can we, you know, she's sort of obsessed with the legality of what people can use? - Of like her image, how her image can be used, which is interesting considering she has a public Instagram with over 100,000 followers, and posts pretty frequently on it. - Or you used to. - You used to. I mean, she hasn't posted it, but she's still posting some, but it's like, she was pretty online and very public. - Yeah. - So it's interesting how much she cared about, like, how her image was being used to make other people money. - Right, that was something she was very fixated on. So at this point, we're like, let us think about this for a second. We had an event to go to that night. We did. - A cocktail, a tire event. - Which by the way, Charlotte and I are not often going to things where we're like putting on a dress. - I mean, look at us. - We're, look at us. - If you're not looking at us, you can watch this on YouTube. But if you're here in us, we're wearing t-shirts. - We're wearing t-shirts. - And, you know, I don't usually wear a dress unless we, I'm going to a wedding. - Right. - I mean, it was fun. But I was like, it was a Thursday night. We're rattled. We had Jordan on speaker in the car, in the Uber on the way to this party. - Right. - We were like, look, if we do this interview last Friday. If we do this, the last possible day before we sign with the athletic, will you come on the show? And she seemed comfortable with that. - Yeah. - And I think this gets into the broader PR picture of like she wants intense control. - Yeah. - Without understanding you will never have that. So you've got to choose a different strategy. - Right. - Right. - So we'll get into that. So we are standing outside of this venue. It is raining, we are wearing dresses. And she is asking us about the logistics of like YouTube. And she keeps saying she needs to look at the YouTube page to map it out. And we were like, okay, look, we'll call you after this event. - Yeah. And we ended that call, I believe. It seemed like she was inching towards coming on. - Yeah. - And was hinting at like, well, let me figure out travel plans, which we'll get to that. So it seemed like she was inching towards it. Like we had kind of turn around. Again, like this like high low dynamic of like, will she, won't she? It felt like it was like she was going to. - The weirdest romance of all time. - Totally. - And we were like on a high at this party. And someone was like, hey, you know, like have loved the coverage of Jordan and Bill. And we were like, well, thank you. - We're like, thank you so much. - You have no idea. - Like looking at each other, being like, oh my God. - And I'm checking my phone, as she called. We're at this thing. We had said we'll be there for like, maybe two hours. - Yeah. - We're like, we can't leave 20 minutes into call. - No. - We have to be cool, be cool. - Play hard to get. - Like what? - And we felt crazy because again, she is like, this person we've been talking about, she is a public figure. - Right. - She's also only talking to us. - Yes. - We don't really know what's happening. Is she gonna, it's 9.30 a night. - Is she gonna be on the show tomorrow? - There's no playbook for how to handle this sort of situation. - No. - There's no rulebook of what you should and shouldn't do. - Because this has never happened. Right. - And I think in, you know, journalism wise, we kept, every conversation we had with her, was with the purpose of getting her to come on the show. - Yes. - And so we get home Thursday to our respective homes. We don't live together, just clarifying that. And we call her. That was probably the most interesting conversation where we were like, we kept saying to her, we were like, "Jordan, come on the show." She was talking about how, you know, being famous felt like looking at herself in a fun house mirror with this stuff coming out. - She asked us, a PR firm had these shirts made. - Oh yeah, that were sent to us. - Sent to us. - And it was a shirt that had us speaking on a panel. And then it was photos of Bill and Jordan and kind of like cheesy like '80s. Like, I don't know, airbrushy kind of font. And it had the phrase, we're not talking about this from the CBS Sunday morning interview on it. And they sent them to us and we posted an Instagram about it. And she was like, where did you get those shirts? Did you get them made? And we're like, no, they were sent to us. - Also like if no one's ever asked you, hey, why do you have my face multiple times on a t-shirt that you put on Instagram when you don't know me? - Right. - It's a weird question. - Yeah. - You feel, I felt like I was like, I feel like a real creep. - Yeah. - But it's also a meme. - Right. - Like do you know how memes work? - Right. - It was like, fucking in joke. - We were like, you should make merch. - Yeah. And then she was like asking how to like have a merch business. - And we were like, I was like, I don't, I don't know. - The tariffs, I don't know. - Madeline starts talking about the tariffs. I was like, I don't know what I'm saying. I was like, Charlotte, I'm just like, all right, we gotta like wrap this up. So, but this is, we've been on the phone for an hour. - Almost never. - It's 11, 45. - I'm so tired. - I'm so tired. And it's just been such a week. Just this, oh my God, it just kept going on and on and on. - And so she keeps talking, finally we're like, Jordan, listen. If you're gonna come on the show tomorrow, let us know. And she was like, let me look at some travel stuff. There's a way that I might be in New York. - Yeah. - At 11, 45, I'm like, I don't even know if you can book stuff still. - Right. - But I'm like, okay, and she was like, night owls and we were like, well, we'll be up. - We will be a night owl. - Again, and it felt like these, all these, it was like, I would never do this with another source, but she, because of who she is to us and what it would have meant to get her on the show and she hasn't given an interview to anyone and this is the biggest story in sports. We said that to her. - Yeah. - We're like, Jordan, whether you like it or not, you are a part of the biggest story in sports. - Yep. - This year. - Yeah. - And so, we stay up. - It's 130, and we were like, are you coming on the show? She doesn't respond. We were like, well, check it in the morning. We woke up in the morning and we were like, it was like, we woke from a fever dream. - Yeah. - Charlotte and I both kind of like, at the same moment, I think we got together and I was just like, we can't keep doing this. Like this, I give, I was like, this is over. - I threw in the towel. I was like, this is it. - This is not worth, this is not worth whatever this is, because it feels weird, it feels like, it was just so bizarre. So, we don't hear from her. We go get a smoothie again, 'cause we know what we're diet. And we go home and I was like, you know, and we're talking, we had like a bunch of conversations about the athletic launch that day and I was like, I just need to like, not look at my phone for a second. There was something I had to read unrelated to work on my computer and I was like, okay, I'm just gonna finish reading this thing. And, but I have texts on my computer. So, like a little, you know, the little red bubble pops up and I click it and Madeline's like, Jordan just called me. - Yeah, I don't answer. I look at my phone, I have two missed calls from her. Yeah, you, I think I FaceTimeed you. You FaceTime me and you're instinct. - My instinct was don't answer it. Why? Because she called me and Charlotte twice and I was like, I don't think this is good. Charlotte was like, well, what if she's like at LaGuardia or something like in Brooklyn? Which could have been an option just based on like, how the week had gone that she would have just done something like that, but like, I'm here. Where should I go to do this interview? - Yeah, I would have felt silly if it we had been like, trying to get her to come on and then she's like, I'm literally in New York, where do I go? - Right, right. And I think I was like, don't, I think I was in the middle saying like, don't answer. And Charlotte's like, I mean, I'm gonna answer. And I was like, okay, my heart is beating. This, this, this. - And so Charlotte answers simultaneously, I had to go to a meeting. So, I'm going to meeting, I'm not on this call. - Charlotte texts me. - Which I'll say, tough one to be on by myself. - That is a very tough one. - And it's not your fault. - No, no, no, no, no, yes, I know, oh, I know. - But I guess there is some narrative completion here in the fact that she called me alone Saturday night. - Yeah. - And then Friday at 245, I answer. She, it starts out, there's like a real edge to her voice this time. And she was like, travel, like travel. I couldn't make travel work. There's been some shifts in my schedule. And I was like, okay, and then she really starts. I mean, she's yelling at me, she's crying. She said that she finished the rest of the Miss Main episode and she didn't like what we said. And I was like, wait, what? I was like, I thought we've been talking about the Miss Main episode that we did that you watched the whole time. Complete 180, from, not complete because we had a feeling that there was this like, tension in the impulse. - It felt like we were always waiting for the other shoot to drop. Like even when she brought up actually, now I'm thinking about this on Thursday night about the T-shirts, her tone on her voice was kind of like, well, why did you have that? Like almost like we were being interrogated a little bit. So it felt like, yeah, there were like moments like that throughout some of these calls. And so yeah, I don't think it was like completely surprising 'cause we always felt like during this entire process, like, what, why is she calling? Like, it feels like this is, it's almost like it was too good to be true. It felt like, has she been mischaracterized? Like, is she more professional than people are saying? And, but we were kind of, there was also a weirdness to it. So she's like, I mean, and this goes on for like 13 minutes. I mean, I'm shaking. Like, I think there have been few times. Which is like fine, that's fine. She's a source, I'm a journalist, this is my job. I've had sources yell at me before. Like, James Dolan's PR people have called me in the middle of the night to tell me I'm horrible. Like, that's fine. But I've had people yell at me before, but this felt because we had what we thought built up some level of trust with her. Yeah. I think it felt like it was incredibly jarring. And you know, you, when someone's yelling at you, you're like, oh my god, what have I done? Right. But I was in my head. I'm like, we haven't done anything. anything. No. Like we've been talking to you about giving you a platform to come talk to us. Right. And all of a sudden, and I think what happened was, so either she just did finish watching the Ms. Main episode or she'd already watched it and she'd kind of wanted to yell at us the whole time, but she got swept up in it too. Or if she had watched it, it was like she felt betrayed by people that she, in her head, thought we were, right, more to her than reporters. Right. And she was like, you've been so nice to my face all week. How can you say these things? Right. Right. Which, and these things were just like we were talking about her performance from a PR perspective at the Ms. Main page. Yeah. Cause as one of our main takeaways from that was saying, you know, we didn't feel like she was the one to win, which I still stand by saying that. She deserved the place she got. And also the way that she answered her question on stage, every candidate who makes it to the top five gets a question. She spoke directly to the live stream and said, anyone who's going through adversity, I'm like, I'm proud of myself for being here, hate never wins. Like addressing the situation of the public interest around her life instead of putting the focus on the Ms. Main page. And which regardless of who you are, I don't care who you are, just PR wise. Yeah. That is what a publicist would tell you to do. Put it back on the Ms. Main page. Don't use this as a chance to make a vague statement that people are obviously going to pick up. Right. And it felt like there were so many parallels with that takeaway from the Ms. Main episode about how you handle fame and publicity and public image. And this week, it's like, she called a reporter. Like that, that is a fact. She called a reporter. There was no publicist on the other line. Like, it's kind of like, what were you doing? I know. And it feels like she's just kind of out on her own, doing whatever she wants. Whether people knew that she was talking to us or not, we don't know. It felt like they didn't know because I feel like they wouldn't have advised her to continue speaking to us. But it felt like all the decisions she makes kind of reflect that sort of statement she gave at the Ms. Main pageant, just kind of like her against the world. She's going to say whatever she wants. She's going to post on Instagram. She wants to be a public figure, but also doesn't want to be. It's like you can't have it both ways. Yep. It's not how it works. Yep. And I think to, you know, we had told her on Thursday night that if she didn't come on the show, today on Thursday, August 7th, we were going to do a show talking about the fact that we've been talking to her because we said, we can't keep covering this story without telling our audience. We've been talking about you because more stuff's going to have talking to you because more stuff's going to happen. Yeah. And it would have felt very disingenuous to be like, hey, we had this really bizarre experience with her. But like, let's talk about Jordan as if we've never spoke like we had that journalistically, we had to say that this happened. So she knew that on Thursday. She said, okay, there was like this moment where it felt like she really got, she was like, I get it for your audience and we're like, okay, that's really reasonable to know that and then call me so upset on Friday. Yeah. I was like, what are you doing? You know, you want to be like, safer from yourself. You're like, don't do like, what are you doing? Person to person, don't do this in our roles. This is what we have to say you did now. Yeah. Yeah. And clearly that bridge is burned. Like she clearly doesn't trust us anymore. She especially won't trust us once this comes out. We don't really trust her as a reliable narrator about herself. I think how she handles situations, what maybe has been going on behind the scenes. If this is a pattern, then anything she could have told us herself. Yeah. Exactly. And I think that it also just reaffirmed that her coming on the show, we wouldn't have learned anything new. And she wouldn't have answered questions with the clarity that I think people want. Right. Right. It would, it would have been like a circle conversation, circular conversation. Who knows what it would have been about, but it wouldn't have been productive for anyone. It would have been about the Ms. Main pageant. Yeah. But who even knows? Right. Right. Right. Right. And also like anytime we asked her a question about Bill, she would deflect. Yeah. We got no information about Bill, about her role at UNC. It was clear she she wouldn't give us anything. Yeah. Which I understand. Like that was a smart PR decision on her part. Right. But all of all of the other stuff didn't make any sense. And like I also think just like we should talk about our role in this now and sort of our the power dynamics here as well or the experience of this whole thing. You said something really interesting about your experience, our experience at the Ms. Main pageant. And then this past week and how they mirrored each other. Yeah. So on day one of the pageant, it was almost like we became more captivated by her as the pageant went on that day because she was really good at it. She has incredible stage presence. She commanded the stage. She kept eye contact with the judges until the last millisecond she got off stage. She was really good at it. And that's what we basically said to each other. And then on the show like wow, like she really knows her stuff. After day one, I think we said like she should win. Yeah, we were like she should win. We're like oh my god. She really did a great job. She has a very good chance of winning this thing. Day two, after she gave the answer saying hate never wins directed at the live stream made it about herself. Our opinion completely shifted. It was like the curtain had been removed from like unveiled. Yeah, you know, yeah. And that we're like oh this person is just wanting to say things that only help her that or she feels that will help her. Even though as we said, she should have made the answer about the other women in the pageant. How grateful she is to be there. It felt like a moment that she wanted to just like capitalize on the spotlight for herself. And you could argue, I mean, first of all, that's her right. You could argue it's sort of sucks that PR wise in order to have people like you, you have to, you know, be humble or be whatever, especially as a young woman like I get it. But in the world of pageants, that is what you have to do for the judges to award you. This is not our personal opinion of like what she should have done. This is what she should have done to win the pageant. Right. It's like that's your play in the game to win the pageant. Yes. So and when she said that, I remember looking at Trevor and like, Oh, like bad taste in my mouth. Well, it's also it's making it about the public circus going on around her. It's not even just herself. It is directly addressing the elephant in the room without even without being like, there's an elephant in the room just being like something big's in here. Yeah. You know, yes. It's not addressing it. Yeah. And that's how I think we felt when Charlotte, Charlotte texted me while she was on the phone with Jordan when she was like, she's yelling at me. I was like, Oh, yeah, this is like day two of the pageant. Yeah. That was like day two. Like up till, I mean, even going into Thursday night, it was maybe leaning a little bit more towards day two of the pageant. But when that happened, I was like, this is like day two of the pageant. Yeah. That was a lot of plot. The cover, the curtain went away. I don't know the word is was revised. Whatever. Disappeared. Yeah. So I think to something that we've been thinking about is obviously the power dynamics here. She clearly has a lot of power because she is the partner of the highest paid employee of the state of North Carolina. There's been reporting that what she's done at UNC has impacted the outcome of deals there like with the NFL, whether they did hard knocks there, they didn't reporting came out partly because of her. You know, I think she definitely is a different narrative of that if I had to guess. But also, you know, she's 24. We're in our 30s. They're felt like they're and you've said, we both said the interesting story thing about the Jordan and Bill story is not the age gap. It's the power dynamics. Yeah. I think the age gap in our case factored in a little bit of like talking to a 24 year old where at times it felt like she was much older and at times it felt like she was much younger and, you know, we're journalists. We have a platform we're talking about this now. She also has a platform. Right. And isn't using it in what like, I don't know, it's just been like such a weird experience to feel like she wanted us to be something more. She wanted guidance or friendship something. She wanted our personal opinion. She kept saying, tell me why you said this on the MIS main pageant. We were like, we will have that conversation with you if you come on the show. Yeah, this isn't, we're not friends. No. And that I think was, I don't know that she fully computed that and then maybe she did on Friday. Yeah. And couldn't help herself. Well, and I think that's also where the PR piece comes into play. Like, she was calling reporters. And whether she thought we were her friends or not, we don't know. It just felt like she was more comfortable with us. It's like that, like she should have known better. Yeah. You know, it's like, and that to me comes in a play where it's like she clearly is kind of doing whatever she wants. Without it appears to be at least from the outside observing, there's not much guidance from a PR standpoint or how to handle your calm strategy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like that to me, her feeling that way and yeah, you felt like almost like a result of that. Like that maybe she felt like, Oh, oops, I'm a little in over my head. And the only way to kind of handle it was like she was upset. Clearly, you know what I mean? And like yelling because like she didn't know what else to do. Yeah. That was like the worst thing she could. Right. And maybe she didn't want to come on the show. And she was like, let me just end it. Right. Maybe having her from her sense. Yeah. I think too that, you know, there's an element of this where we're like, it's good she didn't come on the show because it would have been more of the same. And I think she would have been trying to control the situation, the way that she was sort of, you know, calling late at night or being hot and cold. And I'll do it, or I won't do it. But also like, obviously, if she'd come on the show, this would be an even bigger episode. Yeah. Of course. There's transparency here, you know? Like, And emotionally, I think we're glad it didn't happen. Like, traffically, what a great, you know? And I think that there was some level of understanding about that, but also just from a journalism perspective, it felt very strange to be like we gave her so much more leeway than we maybe should have, but also what would someone else have done in our position with a chance to talk to this person? Yeah. I felt like it was our only option but to play it out. Unfortunately, played out the way it did, but it's like, what were we going to do? Not answer, like, talk to her when she's verbally told us she wants to come on the show. Yeah. And before she yelled at me on Friday, we were like, this would be a fascinating episode to talk to her about her experience. And I think Friday showed that it probably might not have gone great. Right. Yeah. I don't think I would have. Yeah. And it feels weird. Yeah. In some way, because like, at some point, we did have trust with her. Yeah. But again, we're not her friends. We are journalists and like, she should have known that this is what she was getting herself into all along. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting with UNC, you know, football seasons, like three weeks away. Yeah. They got very close to it without something about Bill's personal life coming out. And we know that because we're doing this episode, that now has changed. So again, being a part of the story in that way, it's just like, you know, not just drinking smoothies, like, we're in a blender. I don't know. You know, we're in a blender. And we want to be transparent about that because like, of course, that plays into it. Like, she is a person. Yeah. We know that she's going to be affected by this. Right. But at the end of the day, she made decisions about how about us in a way that she had to have known would have affected her. And we have a responsibility to the show, to our listeners, to be transparent with what's going on. Like, as Charlotte mentioned earlier, we couldn't have continued reporting on the story without mentioning this. No. The elephant would have exploded. In the room. The elephant's so big. The circus would have come to town. The circus. A giraffe would have stuck in a room. Whoa. What's that? I like that. So anyway. Yeah. Yeah. So that's that, I think that it was a truly fascinating, I'll be interested to see what happens next. Yeah. Yeah. But I also think that, you know, moving forward stories about Jordan, it's going to feel a little bit like we've said all there is to say based on our experience with her. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like even when we were talking about our last October, our intuitions and guts were right about the situation. I mean, as we said, months, a month, a month ago, that this was a story about power and not really about the age gap. That wasn't what was interesting. That it's like, I just feel like our gut has been right the whole time. And this just almost confirmed what, what we had suspected, you know, and to your point, it's like, what new is going to come? Like, I mean, listen, if they get married and have a wedding with some compressed flowers. Wow. Well, now we're talking, you know, but it does feel like, yeah, what else is there to say? Yeah. That's new. That's going to add anything new to the conversation that we have not already said for months. Yeah. And I think that this show is what we try to, this show is about people. The show is about PR. A lot of what we go off of is what people are putting athletes teams adjacent figures in the sports world are putting out how that affects them, how that affects how the public sees them. Um, you know, sort of like a media literacy podcast. Yeah. It's like, we're going off of what's publicly available. Right. That, and we are going off of, I mean, like our own experience working in media, my own experience running large social accounts, like just understanding how the public image can impact someone's perception in the world. And I think this was just like a master class in using all those skills to understand a power dynamic. It seems like she's mad at the world, doesn't want to have to play by certain rules, wants it both ways, wants to be public and private based on things she's done. And like there are, there's a reason that there are publicists and people who manage a public image. We are public figures, not nearly to the degree she is anytime I post anything on Instagram. I think what is some, what is the least charitable thing someone could say about this? Right. Right. I posted some pictures from the summer. There's a picture, me on a tennis court looking like a real idiot in tennis whites. And I was like, this is funny enough to me. And like making fun of myself enough that like I'm so new, England, like if the worst thing someone says, I mean, you can say horrible thing. You know what I mean? Right. Great. Like there's a level of self awareness. Yeah. If you're going to be public, you need to either be okay, don't read stuff about yourself. Or if you do, be able to let it roll off your back. And if something stings, maybe it's because there's something there that you fear is true. Right. Yeah. I think that it's a part of like social media exists for two judge people. Like whether that's, whether you use social media and you put something out there and you think, wow, everyone's going to love this. That's a judgment. You think, wow, everyone's going to rip me apart. That's a judgment. But that's what these platforms are for. They are for reactions. You can't post something and think you won't get a reaction. And if you want it the other way of you don't want people to talk about things, why do you have an Instagram account with 100,000 followers? So okay. Well, there you have it. If you've made it this far, thank you so much for listening. And if you have been listening to this story since the beginning, we really appreciate it. And hope that people have learned something new. I hope. Yeah. Through this journey. Yeah. And, you know, maybe we'll be able to like have a sandwich or something. Oh my God. Get some solid food. Yeah. I mean, we'll get through, we'll get through this thing going out into the world, too. Yes. And then, and then let's talk. Yeah. Then we'll talk about sandwiches. Great review, like subscribe, thank you to the athletic. This is a hell of a second episode. We are very grateful for all of the support we've gotten there. Yep. And. Unlike Jordan, we're big fans. We are big fans. Yeah. And as always, be sure to follow us on Instagram @SportsGossip and on TikTok @SportsGossipShow. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Bye.