[Best of B2B] ABM with Hillary Carpio (Head of ABM at Snowflake)

Hey, it's Dave. So zoom webinars and events has made our recent exit five live sessions way more pro lately. But don't just take my word for it. Check this out. This is what Kelly B said. She said, I compare all other webinars now against exit five. I love that. And look, in a world of AI slop, we just want to make something that's actually worth going to. It's not easy to get an hour out of your day. I'm just the on air talent, though. So I'm going to kick it over to Marissa and Maria. This is our exit five live production team, our content team here at exit five since they're the ones actually making this all happen. Marissa, I've been doing B2B content a long time. I know it's hard to hold attention for more than 30 seconds. Let alone a whole webinar, but zoom webinars helps. Recently, we've had nearly 2000 registrants over 500 live and hundreds of hours of watch time on our sessions. Maria, what would you say is driving that? It all starts with prep. We do up to seven hours per session, choosing a topic, prep calls, building the run of show, and so much more. We zoom webinars and events, everything's in one place. Registration, emails, polls, analytics. So it's simple to run that cycle every two weeks. At showtime, I handed back to Marissa in Zoom's production studio. With Zoom's production studio, I can set the scenes in advance. So on the big day, I just send them live with speakers and content already in place. Clean transitions, crystal clear audio and video. I feel like I'm running the big game back there. So this is why our webinars have been crushing it lately. Look, they just said we're spending seven hours per session on this. And don't just take our word for a come and see first hand. We run these every other Friday. It's called exit five live now powered by Zoom webinars and events. So come and check us out. See this whole thing live. And if you want to learn more about using Zoom at your company, check out zoom.com/exit5. That's zoom.com/exit5. Hey, it's me Dave. Today's episode is brought to you by Convertive, a B2B marketing agency that helps enterprise teams build an AI-powered go-to-market strategy. Q4 is the time of year when having a great agency partner matters more than ever. If you're shopping for a new agency, Convertive is worth looking into. They work with marketing and operations leaders to help grow revenue across the business and AEO. One of the things I know you're thinking about right now is one of their specialties. Trusted by companies like DocuSign, DataBank and Constructor, Convertive builds on the search and marketing work you're already doing and helps optimize your site. So more of your buyers find you and turn it into pipeline. Right now, they're offering exit five listeners a free AI search review. They'll run the questions your buyers are actually asking through your Google and AI tools. Show you how you stack up against competitors and tell you what's worth fixing. If you're looking for a refresh of your AEO strategy in 2027, this AI search review with Convertive is a great place to start. Check it out. It's convertiv.com/exit5. That's convertiv.com/exit5. And you can also see the link in the show notes. One, two, three, four. Exit. Oh, look, everywhere you look online right now, everyone's telling you the new way to do marketing because of AI. I think because of that, there's so much perceived change and innovation and speed and technology and AI and agents in marketing right now. I think we've forgotten a little bit about the timeless lessons in marketing just like life. There's a bunch of timeless principles that kind of always work. Whether I'm reading a book from 1925 about advertising and copyrighting that still applies today, or if I'm doing an interview with someone here on our podcast, I'm just reminded all the time about how it's easy to open up LinkedIn and feel like you're behind or feel like you need to chase the newest tool, tactic or channel. And so we want to profile some of the more timeless lessons here on our Exit 5 podcast, right? Everybody in BDB is chasing what's new, new channels, new tools, new playbooks, what the fundamentals haven't changed. Some marketing lessons never go out of style. And that's why we handpicked this episode for you in your years. We're blessing this is one of the greatest hits of the Exit 5 podcast. Whenever all time, most played episodes. And here's this one for you. I hope this is a dose of timeless marketing that you need to ground yourself today. Alright, Hillary's here. I'm excited to do this. We did a podcast, but a first podcast we did about ABM was the most downloaded episode ever. And I just was saying to you, I think this one is going to beat that one. And that's not to knock Brandon, who is our guest on that. But I just, I think you have a great story. And I think there's more buzz and chatter about ABM. So before we dive into ABM specifically, Hillary, can you give some context to who you are? What's your name? What do you do? Where do you work? Yeah, of course, and challenge accepted. My name is Hillary Carpio. I lead the account based marketing function at Snowflake. And my job is to tailor campaigns, programs, and processes across the broader marketing organization to support the sales team in penetrating the accounts that are most important to hitting their revenue goals. So you can think of my team like an integrated marketing function. There's 20 people now in North America supporting the sales reps, similar to a field marketing organization and how we're structured and how we align into sales. And our job is to help them hit their goals cross functionally with product marketing, partner marketing, sales development, field marketing, you name it. We're in the center helping drive impact and drive revenue. Awesome. I can feed. I love that you came out of the gate with like basically what you said to me was we're going to let's beat that Dave. I'm competitive. Let's feed that, which I love. So your head of ABM at Snowflake, just to give people context of can you just give like size and industry and what does Snowflake do? Yeah, Snowflake is the data cloud. So we enable multiple workloads for people's data. And we have grown to I believe we're over 5,000 employees now. We're about 1,200 when I joined three years ago. So hyper growth company continuing to lead not only in the data side of the world, but also on the marketing side of the world. We're known for taking risks, making bold statements and really being ahead of the innovation curve in the marketing plays, practices and programs that we run. Do you have any Frank Sluteman stories? I don't have any Frank Sluteman stories other than I'm super grateful for him as a leader in the direction that he's taking the company. All right, you always got to ask that's okay. So in your role as head of ABM, can you just give me a sense of like where does that sit in the broader go-to-market machine at Snowflake? Who do you report to? What does the kind of overall go-to-market look like? Yeah, so I report to the VP of Demangin. I always like to say that he's due for a new title because he is responsible for demand generation, ABM field marketing, marketing operations, SDRs and marketing intelligence. So perhaps maybe growth is a term that would cover the scope of what he's doing, but the head of Demangin is my colleague that reports into the same boss. That's interesting because this topic comes up a lot. What do you think about the relationship between Demangin and ABM? So I think that they can co-exist and the Demangin organization is led by Jackie Kyler here. It's Snowflake. Her and I have a strong relationship where we support the business together side-by-side. So our functions are complimentary. I think that when you're building an account-based marketing function, you have to be very careful. If you put it under Demangin generation, you need to make sure that KPIs are different. So if Demangin generations being measured on leads or campaign responses, ABM has to be measured on account funnels, not lead funnels. So if you're able to successfully separate those under the same function, great. They can live together co-exist and work complimentary. If you're not able to separate those KPIs, same thing with field marketing. If you're not able to separate the KPIs with it reporting to field marketing function, you're setting yourself up for failure, but you're also setting up the person you've brought in for failure if you're asking them to lead account-based marketing and report on a lead funnel. Yeah, it does seem like most of the misalignment comes from, or most of the friction comes from being misaligned. So when you have like an existing Demangin team and then the company is like, "Hey, we're going to spin up ABM." And those two teams feel like they're competing for resources and have competing metrics. That's where things start to get kind of messy, right? Right. So our job, and not just for Demangin generation, but for all of the go-to-market functions, where I like to say it is, ABM needs to be multiplying the impact of those go-to-market functions. So we should be driving additional campaign responders in the accounts that we're targeting, using the programs and campaigns that Demangin generation already has in place. We should be increasing the attendance rate to eat the events that field marketing has in place. We should be increasing the efficiency of SDRs and setting meetings and completing meetings in the accounts that we're going after together. So when you look at it across the board, we should be helping. You mentioned field marketing. That's a separate team from, so you have Demangin and ABM and field marketing. Can you explain the difference between ABM and field marketing? Because I know a lot of people myself included would kind of lump those things together. Like field marketing is kind of what you're doing. So I'm just interested to hear the distinction. Yeah, and I'll preface this with Snowflake is an account-based organization. So our sales reps have a set account list that they each own. So we are, we have an account-based lens on everything we do. Field marketing and ABM and sales development together are the three-legged tool to support sales directly. So ABM and field marketing then are the two marketing organizations that directly support sales. So we're hand-in-hand supporting the same reps, DMs, RBPs, etc. together. Field marketing is responsible for event-driven marketing. So they're creating regional, local, and global in a lot of cases, event individually, as well as series that are supporting the full funnel demand in those regions. ABM, it goes and we do digital marketing. We do, we work with the field marketing team. So just an example of how we'd work together. We might take data in a certain region and understand what topics are the accounts in that region interested in, what people are most engaged or least engaged, and help field marketing understand which zip code or which region to hold an event in and what the topic or invite list should be. They'll develop the entire agenda, work to get the speakers, the location, the catering, all of that kind of stuff. And then ABM will also help promote that event to the accounts that have been listed as top accounts for the reps. So we're a layer that operates with field marketing. We don't replace them. We don't do the same job as them, but we're complimentary to their organization. It's almost like correct me if this is wrong, but like you might work with, there's probably a digital team of some kind. You might work with them on a particular campaign to achieve a broader goal. Yep. So you mentioned that Snowflake is an account-based organization and I got to feel like the 80/20 of why you're able to be successful with this is that the whole company is aligned around this motion where I talk to a lot of companies or see a lot of companies where the reason that they don't understand ABM or how to do it is because it fundamentally is misaligned with like the status quo go to market. Can you talk about that? Yeah, so there's some component of you have to be as an ABM leader, tenacious and innovative in order to make things work because that's the nature of the industry. But there's also if you don't have the alignment at the leadership level and at the business level to one, go after a certain list of accounts, which means you have to also be okay with not going after a certain list of accounts, right? You have to be able to leave those to the side and say, "These are what we want to focus on." That's really important, but more importantly, too, is you have to have the budget. You can do grassroots movements, you can run a few plays, you can run some campaigns, but to do a true ABM function, you need budget to do any of those programs, just like any other marketing function. And so the budget holder of the organization, and in this case, it's my boss, the VP of Demangian, as well as his boss, our CMO, have to be bought in to allow you to spend that budget on an account-based motion. So in order to spend that budget, they also need to be aligned to sales. Sales has to be willing to do an account-based motion as well. So you need that higher level support. And we'll get into this more later and the reporting. How do you measure what success looks like is much different than we're working at Slack and we're focused on the freemium, the small business funnel, and we're trying to drive website traffic. And it's very much more direct response. And I'm sure you have lots of thoughts on reporting. But okay, so we talked about your an account-based organization. Do you feel this is a little bit decided where I want to go on this next part, but do you feel you have to be one or the other? What's your view on ABM as a whole? There are companies that they might have a small business or mid-market. They have two funnels. We're seeing more SaaS companies have this two-funnel approach. Can you be successful with ABM in that world? I think so, yeah. So I think the key to success in ABM, and this is where I think most people go wrong, is you have to build a program that suits the needs of your business. So take the ideas, for example, from today's podcast. Use them as inspiration. Use them as guidance to where you might want to go. But if you try to copy, paste, stamp an ABM program from somebody else, that's where you're going to go wrong. So if you can identify a specific challenge in your business, maybe you don't have an account-based sales organization, but you have one sales rep who's been designated to your top 10 accounts with the highest revenue, then you have an account-based sales rep. And you can support them specifically in what they need for the business. That might be a top-of-funnel program to just get engagement in those 10 accounts because you've never even had an engagement. For another company, it might be the eight of those 10 or global 2,000 accounts and you're already in them. But there is 80% of the account unpenetrated. Now you're designing a program for cross-sell and expansion, in our case consumption. And that's going to look different as well. So the key is determine what the problem is you're trying to solve for your specific business and where it makes sense and then develop a program accordingly. Pause this podcast, take that last line and just play that over and over and over and over on repeat because what Hillary just talked about is true for ABM, but it's true for any marketing advice, whether you see it on LinkedIn, whether you hear it here, you have to go back to first principles and think from a marketing standpoint. What is my company trying to achieve revenue wise? How are we going to go there? And I think you have to be able to articulate the marketing strategy. What marketing strategies does our business have? Oh, we believe that there's a universe of 1,000 people who should buy our product, then great. Then let's figure out how to go after them. When you mash up all these different little things, the marketing team feels busy, everyone's burnt out, everybody's doing stuff, but we're not maximizing impact. Well, and that's when people say ABM didn't work, right? I tried it. It didn't work. Well, what didn't work? What were you trying to achieve? Well, I was trying to get into big accounts. Well, you can't run a three month program and try to get into global 2,000 accounts and say it didn't work. So you have to set a very specific goal. My goal is to get a first meeting in three of the however many global 2,000 accounts and then you can tell yourself if it worked or not. Oh, I love that because you just broke that down until like an actual action will metric. Right. I think it could be easy to say like, Hey, we're going to do an ABM campaign and we're going to, we got emails and we got direct mail and we're at this conference. But you don't actually like, no, what we want a meeting at this account. And I think a lot of people, we get obsessed with the technology and like, what if you could in the simplest form, what if you got a meeting at that account because you emailed them with a strong, with a strong pitch and you have the right product at the right time? That can also work. Like we get blind, we get blinded to thinking of like these crazy campaigns, but it starts at this, this first principle, like how do we get this first meeting? Okay. So let's work off that. How do we get this first meeting? You said, okay, we're going to go after these accounts. Let's just take people through like the 101 process as a company. We've defined that we want to go after this universe of accounts. How do you, high level, how do you define those accounts? What do you use to do it? Who owns that? Let's go through that process first. Yeah. So first, you got to know your tam and I think depending on the company size and maturity of the people listening, that could vary. Like, yeah, of course, I know the tam. What are you talking about? And also like, oh, I actually don't know who might buy my products. So first, who's your not only your total addressable market, but your total relevant market who can buy your product today? And I'll stop there for a second because this is where I see a lot of people make a big mistake, especially on the startup side of the house. Is there trying to do an account based marketing approach to sell what their product is going to be in the future? Right, or it's to everyone. It's to everyone. Well, we sell to these six personas. Right. So clarify, like dial down into like who you can sell to today. And if you want to sell the six personas eventually great, but who do you really want to focus on? Because you're part of the success of ABM is creating clarity for sales, marketing and sales development to align on together, right? A lot of it is just that clarity and alignment will help create success. So what can your product do and who can it serve now and target them? Work on a bigger brand campaign if you want to start expanding your time elsewhere. Then you're going to want to find out there's kind of two paths to ABM. There's we're going to go after them whether they're ready or not because they've been this even decided that they're an account we have to get into. I call these the Roomba vacuum cleaner accounts. The room was going to go if it hits a closed door, it's going to like turn to the side and go a different direction. If it goes down a hallway, then it's going to find like the next path to go around the room and come back out. So you're just going to keep going after those accounts. That's one path. Sometimes though, to be fair, it does get stuck under the bench and it's like right. It's not always perfect. But to that point, how often do you come home and three days later realize the Roomba stuck under the bed because it wasn't your top priority? So if it's your top priority, you need to be checking in and like looking for that check engine light. Is it stuck? Why is it stuck? What path did it take to get stuck and how do we keep it from getting stuck again? And that's where people never go back and make those analyses and changes. They just say, oh, but didn't work or hope this person didn't do their job. This thing didn't fall through. You have to diagnose what went wrong to keep it from happening again. Yeah, I love that. And then like five days later, you thought the house was supposed to be clean for the party you were having and it's not exactly. And then it's well, it didn't work. But then there's the other path too, right? And this is what I recommend, especially if you're getting started. You want to find quick wins and you can use timing and engagement to do that. So use engagement data, whether it's first party or third party, first party being having engaged on your website with your campaigns, if you didn't de-anonymize the page visit, doesn't even have to be a form fill. Or have they engaged third party that could be intent from a web content perspective. It could be from like the G2 trust radius size of the world where they're leaving comments or looking at reviews. Those indicate that not only are you interested in them, but they're interested in either you or something that you sell, but don't know you're an option. So that's how you're going to narrow down who to go after right now. Just pause on that for a minute because I want to explain this for people who might not be as fluent in this as you are. So you mentioned something about de-anonymize the visit. You don't even need a form fill. Can you unpack that a little bit? So since you're selling to accounts, you don't need to necessarily have somebody fill out an account because you don't care who fill out the account. You want to know that so and so at this company visited our website. Can you talk about where does that data come from and then what do you do with that? Yeah, so there's a lot of different tools you can use for a website de-anonymization. Some are better than others and some rely more on cookies versus other technologies and others. You want to pay attention to that with the changes in the market, but there's the clear bits of the world. There's role works. There's six cents. There's terminus that are like ABM platforms. It can help. Bambora has a great tool as well. So it can tell you based off of the visitors to your website, what account do they think it's at? It's not at the people levels at the account level, which when you're doing an account-based marketing program, it's fine. So you could take it a step further. Did they go to your home page? Did they go to your contact me page? Did they go to the page of a specific product? And when you narrow that down and sit down with the sales rep and say, hey, sales rep, you've been trying to go after this account for six months. I can tell you that they've actually visited our page on XYZ solution. Now let's sit down and all create a marketing campaign about that solution. You create touch points about that solution and the SDR has a sequence about that solution. You're now aligning that every touch point that company receives is around the topic that we know or suspect they're interested in and it's a connected cohesive experience as opposed to most brand experiences that are like shooting off in every direction. and it's all kinds of things. - So you might not be able to say like, hey, Hillary, but you can kind of take an approach where you're gonna have some tiers of contacts. How do you guess who should get that outreach then based on what you know? - Yeah, it's a great point. You need to know your ICP and you need to know your buyer. So if they're interested in like, I'll just do a snowflake example for us. If it's a data science-related solution, I need to know which titles level seniority are gonna be the influencers decision makers and who's on the buying committee for data science, which is who data scientists. If I see that it's more of a business solution then I might go after more business level people. So you need to have a map and you can create that head of time. If these are the topics of interest or these are the pages of interest who are the people that I reach out to with which message. - Got it. And then you can keep going further based on like, once you actually get a response and I know that now Hillary has responded and she is head of HR, you can then kind of like adjust based on the person that you actually know you're talking to now. - Right, and then you can also they're likely, like oftentimes the first contact is not gonna be the exact person but they'll send you in the right direction. Oh, we don't, we just signed with the competitor on a 12 month contract noted. Take a note in your calendar and 12 months follow up. Now you know what techs act they're using and what the competitive messaging should be. Hey, we actually just changed our budget and announced in our earnings that we're going this direction instead of that direction. Great, now you have insight and you know to go after maybe the business person instead of the technical person. So even if the initial person you speak to doesn't get you the, you know, the meeting, you can use it as detective information to get where you want to go. - Nice, and that is what's so unique about this model is you're basically not everything is automated automated by tech, like you and the sales counterpart whoever you're working with is like, oh, I read this in the news about this company. Like it's tough to do this automated at scale. You have to have this actual personal level of like understanding the accounts you're trying to sell to. - So my job leading the organization is to make that as easy as possible for my team members. So they're going to be tailoring and creating very, very boutique touch points. But when, for example, we identify this is the persona or the target titles. We've pre drafted messaging for that title in the financial service industry versus that title in the public sector or the healthcare industry. We've predefined what the graphics will look like if they're a senior leader versus if they're an individual contributor because we need them to see themselves in the graphics that they're being shown. So consider it like a library that you can build that when you curate it together, it becomes very boutique but you don't have to reinvent the wheel and create a fresh new marketing campaign every single time you want to go after an account. - This is so good. I already know it. I already know it. I told you at the beginning. You mentioned, so you start doing this. You start, you know, you have your account list. We talked about in a previous episode that marketing or, well, I guess in your case as head of ABMI bet that do you own the list criteria? Do you own that with ops? Like who owns the, this is the blessed list of accounts that we're going after. - Yeah, so heads of sales and the sales leaders ultimately own that list. It's their territory. We are there to complement and support their success. So everything has to be approved by them and I will tell you this is one of the traps that we fall into and I'm sure others do as well. It's like here's a list I suggest and then two weeks later, well, I don't want that account on that list anymore. Oh, let's go this direction, right? So it's a lot of it is education and getting the data after a few quick wins to say we know if we have this list for three months, then it will be successful. But if you change accounts every two weeks, we can't expect the same results. And then going to the person who's in charge, whether that's a RBP of sales or a regional vice president or whoever it might be and getting there by and to say, hey, I need you to hold your team accountable to sticking to this list. - Hey, it's Dave. - Dave's episode is brought to you by Optimizely. If you want to know what AI agents can actually do for a marketing team, Optimizely is where I'd point you to right now for a real example. Last month, we ran an X to five live session where a bunch of our members showed off their best AI agent use cases and McKeill, director of AI Innovation at Optimizely, actually won the whole session. He showed us how he used Optimizely's AI agent platform to run an ABM campaign that gave 2,000 accounts their own landing pages built from signals like job postings, press releases and leadership changes. That's like the holy grail of ABM, by the way. Optimizely's agent platform is built specifically for you, the B2B marketer. You can build your own agents like McKeill did or pull from a directory of 50 plus pre-built ones made just for marketing use cases all in one place. They also just launched virtual teammates. These are digital members of the team that learn over time and can join meetings, complete tasks, support campaigns and keep your website optimized. If you're being asked to look into AI agents right now, Optimizely should be at the top of your list, go and see how they can help you reclaim your time and build cool stuff just like McKeill did. Check them out at optimizely.com/exit5. That's optimizely.com/exit5. Hey, Steve, today's episode is brought to you by compound growth marketing. They're a full funnel, demand-gen agency that I've personally hired twice. Yep, before I was just a thought leader, I was a real marketer and CGM was one of the best agencies that I worked with. They help high growth software companies show up earlier in the buying journey where potential customers are forming opinions about which product to use. They've helped an enterprise cybersecurity company grow pipeline 168% year over year with full funnel media and an HR tech company grow 48% through paid search and they can do the same for you. They offer a combination of full funnel paid advertising strategy and execution, AEO and a dedicated go-to-market engineering team. Everything CGM does gets tracked, measured and improved over time. That means more pipeline for you and this works because they were started by an actual former VP of marketing who really gets this space that you work in in B2B. So visit compoundgrowthmarketing.com/exit5 to see how they can help you meet your 2027 revenue goals. That's compoundgrowthmarketing.com/exit5. But to that point, you have to have their buy-in. So this isn't about ABM field marketing or any other marketing or coming and saying, here's the list we're going after, bless it. It's sitting down and saying, hey, what topic do you want to talk about in your region? OK, it's a health care for data science for health care. Great. Let me bring back a list of the accounts that have the highest chance of responding to a campaign about that. What do you think? And then the SDR is going, here's what I think we should remove. Here's what I think we should prioritize. It's a three-legged stool that we're working together to all cohesively agree on that list. It's not one team saying go run, go after it. It's a team effort. But even just hearing and how you talk about it, so much of what goes wrong in marketing is because of the relationship with sales. You're basically the way I'm hearing you describe what you do in marketing. It's like your job is to serve sales. And for some reason, we have a tough time swallowing that pill. But it feels like when you're at a company that's performing well, the company has an account-based approach. Marketing is seen to serve sales. It almost aligns everything else. I feel like you have a harder time when you're like, we are marketing. We need to prove what we do where you're like, hey, I'm partnering with sales. I'm going to get my bonus if we hit the company revenue goal. Not if marketing did X or sales did Y. And I mean, here's the question. What do you have to prove if you're generating 110% of your MQL goal and not looking at the sales qualified opportunity rate or the close win rate of those MQLs? You're not proving anything. You're proving that you can go higher content syndication vendor and get leads to match the number that you're trying to achieve. That's a hard look at whoever's somebody's on a run or walk or make cleaning up around the house right now. And they're like, oh, which is fine. It goes back to what are you trying to achieve? If that's your goal, they're trying to achieve great. But if you've identified that your goal is to accelerate the deal cycle by 2x, then that's not going to do it. Yeah. I love this approach to marketing, just even if it's hard because I'm like, yeah, even if you're not doing at an org that should do ABM, you should do ABM. Just because it seems like companies that are doing ABM, they're the most aligned with sales. They have the least issues. It's like the clearest, I like it because it's like, nope, we care about these 100 companies. And that's what we're trying to do. I do love that from a focus standpoint. Okay. Before I get into questions, you mentioned this. You said a three month program is not even enough. So what is enough? How do you think about a program? How on earth do you plan? Because like, if I was going to start a ABM campaign, I'm like, oh, I don't know, like we need a deck. Let's email them. How do you structure this? How do you know what to do when? How do you plan if you could share some of that I would love to hear about it? Yeah. So I've created multiple tiers within our programs to address different needs. To my point of it depends what you're trying to achieve. The Rumba accounts that I was talking about where you just have to get into them regardless of timing. You need to keep pursuing them. That's a year long program. So if those are going in, there'll be about 80 accounts this year for us across our teams. Those have to stay in the entire year because we need that amount of time to continue to knock on different doors and see where we need to go. We have another tier that's a three month program, and this is the other RVP nominated. We have another tier that is eight E nominated. And those ones are on a quarterly basis, right? We're matching that cadence of a quarter with the rep. That's where that three months comes from. Is it we need that full quarter to go after it? Wait, let's pause. Let's pause on this because I want to go and do it because people are going to ask, OK, yeah, so this is so good. So in the 80, the 80 accounts, what types of things are you doing for those 80 accounts over the course of the year? Just a couple examples. Yeah, so those ones are going to get the absolute best treatment, highest level of personalization. I actually use a term best because it's not better or worse, but they need a different level of support than other accounts. So you might get a custom direct mail program, and I'll use an example of Ash on my team ran this program where we identified we are in this account, but we need to actually expand to other departments, but we have really strong champions. So we did a program that was a referral friend where they got a customized piece of swag. And I said, it's-- If you refer somebody else in your organization that we're not already talking to, you and that person both get this piece of swag. We end up getting introduced to all of these other departments that we hadn't previously been in. That requires coordination with that company's legal team, their marketing team, with the champions, with the reps, right? It's a very, very heavy lift to get something like that off the ground, and so that's only going to happen in one of those must win highly strategic one-to-one accounts that are a year long. That's great. This is where you might spend, that's where you're going to go spend before you even do anything, because you're like, we've already prioritized. What about like dinners, one-to-one meetings? There must be a lot of smaller meetings or goals to have like, you know, breakfasts, lunches, VIPs, stuff. Do you have you done any of that stuff? Yeah, so we work with our field marketing organization on that, and we'll do what we call Snow Camps, which are a full day event dedicated to just that account, and there'll be different agenda items or different sessions throughout the day for different personas and different departments within the account we're targeting. We'll also create custom content, so a one-pager or a piece of content directly for the account or business unit that we're going after. You name it. We're doing it one-to-one digital campaigns, microsites that have content specific to each department that we're selling to. The list goes on. And do those things like take priority over all other, like if someone on the team, if you're like, hey, we need to do a customized, you know, microsite for company X. Like, does that just jump the priority queue for the creative team? Actually, the account based marketers, it's not like they're responsible for the creation of all of the creative assets and the curation of all the digital assets, so we're building them ourselves. That's great, because that's the only way you'd be able to move fast is like, if you have a team of people who can do different things, if it just pass it all down the line. Oh, that's awesome. You're like mini-CMO, each person is like a mini-CMO. That's awesome. No camps is great. No camps is a great term. And just I think I wanted to break down this level for people because the amount of effort that you're putting in to close one of these accounts, you're doing a dedicated one-day in person, these people could never buy from us, but we're going to do this for them. And this is what it might take to close them or begin a conversation with them. Yeah. And typically, if we're doing an event like that, you have to have an internal champion at that account in order to run something like that. It can help promote the event, get people on board, generate the excitement, right? You're not going to go into an account that's never responded to any of your emails. It'd be like, we're inviting you to a full day event and bring everybody, like no one's going to show up. That's like walking up and asking someone on a date in the middle of a concert that you've never seen before. It's like that doesn't make sense. So there has to be some existing. So like your tier one is these 80 accounts you're going to do all year. What was the next, was it three months or was there another one between three months? We define them based off of who nominates them. So that's the RVP level that nominates those accounts. Then we have our DM level. That's a three month one to one. We call it our traditional ABM level, where we do best when we're supporting an open opportunity and accelerating that opportunity. But an AE can choose whatever funnel stage account that they want. And that's getting a one to one campaign digitally. They'll get included in a quarterly direct mail program. They'll get sequences aligned with the SDR organization. And then we'll curate the demand generation efforts that are already existing in the company. We'll ensure that those are amplified in those accounts as well. And then what's the last layer that kind of catch all year long? Yeah. So then we have our DM level as well, which is a one to many program. So that's where we identify a topic as opposed to an account. And we determine for each region that each get their own topic. We create one campaign that is, I like to call it one to one at scale. So we're targeting multiple accounts, but when an account lands on the microsite that we create, we have real time personalization that's putting in content messaging, call the actions specific to that account. So those are kind of our bread and butter with the SDRs. It's our one to punch. We identify the list and the topic and the content and messaging with the SDR, ABM or AE and field marketer. We launch our campaign within two weeks, the SDR is following up on the cadence. And we see about 3x to 4x the meeting rate when we take that approach. Then when SDRs go after accounts by themselves. This is so good. You're going to get so many messages after this, just letting you know. Welcome to and if you don't, I'll eat that, but I promise you. All right. I want to go to some of these questions because we could talk about anything forever, but I want to I want to just see your reaction to some of these. Sure. Some of these can be quicker, quicker answers. Don't feel like you have to go into all these. This one's from Tim. What's the best no-tech or low-tech ABM approach? Yeah. I would take something you're already doing. Like a campaign that's your highest performing, so maybe it's a specific asset or a specific play that's working well and identify a small subset of accounts with a sales rep. And pick a sales rep who's interested in working with you, don't force it upon anybody. And see if you can create a small tweak or tailored approach using that already successful campaign to get into an account that you haven't been able to get into. And that should be with marketing sales and sales development all working together. So just personalize to make it relevant to the person you're reaching out to. Love it. This one's from Kayla. What are best practices to get sales buy-in to support long-tail ABM efforts? Oh, this is a softball for you, my friend. I love this question. You have to align your goals to theirs. So ask them and this is a question I ask our sales leaders when I talk to them. What are your priorities for this upcoming quarter and what's going to make or break your number for you? And then a line if their priority is solution X or persona Y, you come back to them with, here's how I think I can support your priority. What do you think? And you help them understand and believe that you are there to help them reach their goals. You're not there to claim credit or attribution for what you're trying to do. Yeah, I mean, think about everything Hillary said to date on this podcast is like you're literally showing up being like, "Hello, how can I help you close more deals?" Exactly. And so they have to see you in that light. But you also have to be this is why metrics matter like you have to be measured to that. Because if that's not how you're measured, if you're this where a lot of marketing goes wrong here, if the marketing team is not fundamentally aligned to help sales close those deals, then of course there's going to be friction and you're not going to end up supporting. But I can't think of a sales team in the world who wouldn't want help closing deals. It's when they don't believe that marketing is working on the right stuff and they want it. You know what? They're not helping me. This is making things worse. I'm going to take this time and do it myself. This is a lazy question, what is ABM and what isn't? So I'm going to take a political approach to that question, which there is a lot of ABM police out there that will tell you, one to many is not ABM, it's only one to one. And one to one is only ABM if it's highly tailored and whatever, like I don't care. To me, ABM is good marketing and good marketing is when you are aligning your objectives to the objectives of the company and meeting them. So that's my answer. Yeah, ABM is a term that was made up by a technology vendor or some point, like what you said is what you're doing. It's good marketing. Yeah. I did write a post on LinkedIn that got quite a bit of interaction about what ABM is and what it is not. So if you want to check that out, you can go to my LinkedIn profile and it's it's sitting there. And does it echo what you just kind of said? Pretty much. And I think I go into, it's been a while since I wrote it, but I think I go into like ABM is not a lead based program. Right, ABM is not a magic bullet to solve a problem for the broader organization that if you don't have any support with it, it's not a standalone effort. It needs to be integrated with the other functions. Yeah, you can you can check it out on on there. This question, how do you approach your ICP for ABM campaigns when you don't have any interest industry narrowing in current clients portfolio and the company's product strategy? I'll take that one. You can't. It has to be a company level strategy that you're that is like vaporware like. Yeah. You can't. You literally can't. Hey, we have nothing to sell these people. And to your point earlier, like you need a niche, you need a first market to go after. If you this one's from Mary Ellen, if you were at a seed stage start up with no budget, where would you start and how would you plan for when budget comes available before you answer this? I do just want to say, these questions are the are the most frustrating answer because to your point in beginning, usually you're going to do ABM if you're selling larger deals. And so if you're the CEO or the board or whoever and you're like, hey, we want to close Fortune 500 companies and we're going to give you no budget to do it. That's where as the market, you're going to be like, see, uh, this is, it doesn't work like that. Am I, am I wrong in thinking like that? I probably, no, no, I probably look for another job, but I will tell you that I think the draw to ABM is the tailored spear fishing approach to be able to land the customers you want. So if I was in that situation and I work with, with several startups doing this is you want to start putting in together a campaign infrastructure. So you want to identify who are your target personas, what message will resonate with them, what value do you add to their life and not just on the technological side, but you need to understand are these people who are sleeping and sleeping bags overnight because whatever workloads they're doing or taking them so long and maybe your business will help them get out and time to get to their kids soccer game, right? You need to understand how it's going to impact them as a person in their professional life, their ability to get promoted, that kind of thing. You then can start mapping out what content do I want or need and, and hey, not with like chat GPT and I just released a podcast on this as well. If anybody wants to dive into it, you can produce a lot of content on your own and tweak it and adjust it. Obviously, don't put it out there just from chat GPT on its own, but use it as a writing buddy to help generate content that aligns to each of those personas, each of those value messages, then you can develop your CTAs, then you can develop your creative. Now when you get budget, you have your whole suite of marketing ready to launch to whatever your ICP is, whether it's an account based marketing approach, whether it's a persona based approach, like whatever it is, so you can be building that ecosystem ahead of time. You mentioned chat GPT, you mentioned your podcast, we're going to get back to both of those things. I got my notes. If you think I've been multitasking, I have, and this is what I do the whole time. I love it. I write notes the whole time. questions from Tim what intent data do you believe in it? And if so, So what's the most effective kind, the ABM platforms keyword intent, Bambora style intent or G2 style intent? That one got a bunch of uploads. Yeah, so this is a little bit of controversial topic. I love intent. I could not do my job without it to be completely frank and I'm, it's right up there with the Marquitos and Salesforce is of the world in terms of success for my organization. We use intent not only to help prioritize accounts. We use it to help craft our messaging. We use it to help understand a sales cycle. You can actually do a look back of what were people searching on or accounts searching on the 12 months leading up to the purchase that they made with your business. So you can get more insight into what you should be talking about earlier on before they even know that your company's an option. We also are using it to plan product marketing content. So what should we prioritize in timing based off of what people are are searching for? So huge amount of intent in terms of what type of intent you need. I think it goes back to what problem you're trying to solve. To my understanding, the kind of G2's trust radiuses of the world are more bottom of funnel intent that you want to see who you need to be having conversations with to close a deal that maybe they're looking at other solutions. I'm sure you can use it for top of funnel as well. The bomb boroughs of the world are kind of the OG intent providers that have an agnostic data co-op. Those tend to be my preference because they're not tied to a specific solution. They integrate into any solution you want to use so that you have the flexibility to scale up, scale down, work with it ever, ABM providers you'd like to work with. I also have an unpopular opinion about keyword intent where you actually type in the custom keywords. I personally have found that when you have the ability to type in anything and everything, nothing means anything because if you type in enough words, everybody's going to be searching on something. So it's not really separating the sand for you whereas if you narrow down on like what are the keywords or the topic clusters that are most relevant to your business, you can better separate and prioritize which accounts to go after with which messages. Great answer. How do you think this changes? You mentioned this briefly earlier, Cookie List World. Is that coming? What's going to happen to these types of data sources as that happens? Yeah. I'm not an expert on the cookie transition but I will tell you that I work closely enough with a lot of these vendors that they've been preparing for it for a long time. They have backup and in silvery ways that they de-anonymize web visits. They de-anonymize how they consume data. They're all prepared for it. So I think that it won't be at least on the intent side. I don't think it will be as big of an impact as we think it will be. Yeah. I've heard they've been hiring interns to go to your house and see what you're doing and then the future is going to be much, is it going to go back to humans and spying on you? I don't know. I also think, don't you kind of like, doesn't it part of you the competitive marketer and you feel like, great, bring it on. I'll come up with a new, we'll have a new challenge and we'll have to figure out creative ways to solve those problems. I mean, I will say if you are relying on any single tactic to the point where you think you'll get fired if it goes away, then you should probably reevaluate your mix. That's such a good, so true. I'm going to let that one breathe because that is the life. Same for anything. Like, if you have one strategy, if you have one person on your team, you need to diversify. That's a great comment. All right. This question was in here and I forgot to ask you this. So let's just briefly talk about it. I'm sure we could talk about it forever. On the whole, how do you measure your ABM efforts? I'm going to ask you with this caveat lens, so many activities and I think it's much easier for most people to measure ad words is really easier to measure direct response, marketing and really easy to measure. When you're doing things over the course of three, six, nine months, you're going to write a blog post here and you're going to do this thing here and you're going to do one event here. Take us through just a high level framework for how you measure this stuff. Yeah. You can't do a direct this asset led to this lead that led to this meeting that led to this opportunity. There is no direct ROI in that sense. So we're looking at the overall targeting of the account and surrounding of the account and how the impact compares to other accounts with a similar profile that did not get that same treatment. So I'm looking at lift of ABM targeted versus ABM engaged, which is, did we target them? Or they actually respond to something we're doing and then compare those to non ABM accounts. The numbers are so significant that that's been the thing that we really relied on to show the difference. I mean, you look at, like, for an example, a SDR can go after 100 accounts and get into a completed meeting with 10 of them without ABM, they can go into 100 accounts and get between 40 and 60 meetings with ABM. When you have those sorts of numbers, that can help you really understand the lift. But the overall answer is really pipeline, right? We're a one team pipeline machine. And so we're all working together, field marketing, SDR's, demand gen, partner marketing, we're all trying to generate pipeline for the business and the accounts that are must win accounts as well as other accounts as well, of course. And so we're more focused on that total outcome than the slicing and dicing your attribution of which activity did what? Got it. But for someone to say like, ABM is working, you would want to look at, like, let's look at accounts that we did ABM to versus not and see the lift. Yeah. It should be pretty clear if you look at it from that perspective. And you have a time bound, you have to know what you're trying to measure. So you know, specifically what you're looking at and then a time bound length. So in this quarter, in this fiscal year, in this half, whatever it might be, what was a behavior of accounts with and without account based marketing? What's your perspective on the blog? Does blogging still have a place in B2B marketing? Does it have a purpose if you're doing ABM? Where do you see content that doesn't have a direct response goal fitting in your strategy today? The blog is not my expertise. So I don't want to speak to the blog is like a broader marketing tool. I think it's like anything else if you're trying to mow your lawn with a knife, you're going to struggle. So what are you trying to achieve with your blog? If your blog is a lawnmower because you're trying to generate thought leadership and drive a specific high level audience to your website and get that traffic up, then great, you've now have a lawnmower for your lawn. If you're using a blog to get into a specific sea level influencer at a specific account, but you've never actually sent that blog to that sea level influencer and you're like, I was hoping that they land on your website on that blog, then like you're not really doing anything. So I would say okay, that was great. That was a political way of answering it, but also useful way of answering, which is my interpretation of that is like it's tough to tell any channel without understanding the goal because if you had a kick ass blog that positioned that like pumped out great content that talked about your brand as a thought leader and had interesting research and insights and point of view, well, guess what people are going to do? They're going to go read that thing and so then you probably as the ABM marketer would be like, wow, this is great. This accounts that we're interested in are visiting are reading our content. That would be a positive signal. I'll tell you what my first thing comes to mind is a well written blog that's gotten a lot of traction and say it's for a sea level decision maker and IT. My first thought is if I have a existing account, 80% of us unpenetrated, I have a champion in that account. How can I take that blog, have the sales rep help me tailor and tweak it specific to what that accounts needs are and then have that champion send it themselves to the sea level IT decision maker. Now you've got an ABM approach of how you're using that blog. You mentioned it before. I got to ask. I'm only asking this for the clickbait and for the SEO, but everyone's talking about chat GPT. Where do you see chat GPT or other tools like Jasper and such fitting in the ABM stack in the future? Yeah, I think that the bandwidth of humans is one of the biggest limitations of ABM because there's some element that you just can't replicate and so for some of that, if that's tailoring messaging for a specific account, if you can upload a list of variables and use something like chat GPT to help you write messaging, I think that could be helpful. I will put a layer of caution on this that anything I say about something like chat GPT, it's a starting point. It's a generator to get you 80% of the way there. It's not the final product. So you still have to have a savvy, knowledgeable marketer who's going to look at it and tweak it and alter it and adjust it, but I think it can help you get started and I've also been using it personally as like a brainstorm buddy. So even as simple as like I was trying to come up with some ad copy and I needed two words that started with tea. And so I was using chat GPT to say, okay, here's the structure of my copy. It's from A to Z in marketing terms, but I need both letters to start both words to start with the tea and using it to help me identify like even small things like that. It's the brainstorm buddy that you wish you had. Brainstorm buddy, somebody take that and actual marketer with a great idea. Yeah. All right. Hillary, this was great. I could talk to you forever about this topic. I hope you get messages from this topic. You mentioned that you have a podcast, want to plug that real quick because I'm sure there's going to be people who would love to hear from you again. Yeah. So I appreciate that this podcast was similar in that there's very tactical takeaways, but I started a podcast called go-to-market speed dial GTM speed dial is how it shows up in Apple and Spotify. And the idea was that I have a lot of conversations with my mentors and other people in the industry asking what I feel are dumb questions because I want to get specific takeaways of how I can action different plays and different ideas and even like leadership advice of hiring, firing all of the things as a leader. And so I created this podcast not to be highly strategic but to be very tactical. So I interview folks in the industry, one just came out yesterday, which is how to pitch your ideas internally and execute them. Who do you reach out to? Do you slack? Do you use email? How do you follow up at what point do you drop the idea if it's not getting picked up? How do you measure it? How do you manage people who don't report to you? That whole process we lay out in that podcast, you can walk away knowing what to do next. So that's the spirit of it. Love that. That's a great idea for a podcast too is people love the tactical stuff. So is it you? Do you have guests? Do you edit them together? Like how do you come up with that episode? Yeah. So it's me interviewing for the most part. So like the chat GPT episode, I interviewed my former boss, who's a CMO at kite works and super passionate. about using ChatGPT and product marketing PR, et cetera. So he gives you tangible ideas of how you can use that. And then I also, next week in two weeks, I'm releasing and asking me anything on ABM where I took in questions from LinkedIn and it's a solo episode where I'll be answering people's questions. So I'm a one-man show in terms of producing and planning and editing. So we're kind of developing and going with the flow here as it gets established. - That's all right, that's great. I hope you get some new listeners from this. And also you have the most important ingredient, which is you're a great speaker, you're passionate about what you do, you know what you're doing. And so that, to me, Trump's high production and whatever else it takes. So Hillary, I mean, this was great. I learned a bunch from this. Thank you for being here. We'll link to all your stuff and go check out Hillary Carpio, LinkedIn, check out the GTM speed dial podcast. I know people will be there. They want to check that out. And make sure that you're following exit five, exit five marketing on Instagram. I created a new account where we just post all clips on the podcast so you can just have like a one-stop shop to get a little bit of bite of B2B marketing knowledge while you're scrolling through nonsense on Instagram or whatever, wherever else you have. So Hillary, thank you for doing this. You rock, I appreciate it. - Exit. (upbeat music) - Exit. (upbeat music) Hey, it's me Dave. Today's episode is brought to you by CustomerIO. They're one of our longest running sponsors. CustomerIO helps marketing teams get more impact from every message they send. So you can reach the right people with the right message at the right moment. What we love about CustomerIO is that they have a great team of marketers who really care about the craft. They just get marketing and understand our audience. Molly, Rosie and the team bring something creative every time that we work together at our exit five event in Austin, they handed out cowboy boots in our newsletter. They shared an AI prompt cookbook and at drive last month they were giving out Airbnb gift cards and AirPods. They believe marketing is a craft that takes creativity, thought and taste and know, AI can't do this part for you. The best teams treat AI as infrastructure and built the right way. It actually makes marketing feel more human, not less. CustomerIO helps product teams feel personalized campaigns across email, SMS, push, in app and web hooks using their own first party data. And today more than 9,000 brands trust CustomerIO to send their messages, including notion, less mills and Angie. 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