Bernie vs. the Robots

(upbeat music) - Welcome to Ponte of America, I'm John Loveett. Today on the show, I had a great conversation with Senator Bernie Sanders on AI, Super PACs, and his journey from a kid on a kombutz in Israel to a Senator trying to prevent weapon sales to Nanyahu, and trying to save humanity from robots at the same time. And then you'll hear my conversation with our friend and journalist, Peter Hamby, founding partner of Puck News and host of the powers that be podcasted on the democratic shakeup in Maine, the governor's race in California, some news on the DNC, and have the left out of confront political violence. But first, here's my conversation with Bernie. (upbeat music) Senator Sanders, welcome back to the show. Good to meet you, John. - So I watched your panel last night on the existential risks of AI. You had researchers from North America and China. It was a bracing experience. There's a, just for people that may not have caught it, MIT's tech mark says, "We'll be like animals in a zoo." And then another researcher named David Kruger says, "Zoos, most of us won't be so lucky." What did you take away? Why did you want to do this conversation? - Thank you, John, for asking me about that. I am not a tech guy, but I'm sitting around, and I read, and I listen to people. And it is clear to me that AI and robotics are the most revolutionary technologies in the history of humanity. They are going to transform life for every man, woman, and child, certainly in our country and around the world. How the hell do we ignore that reality? Why is there not massive discussion about the impact of AI, for example? All right? Who is pushing AI right now? Who's pushing AI in robotics? The richest guys in the world, Musk, Bezos, Ellison, Zuckerberg. What do you think they want? Do you think they're staying up nights worrying about your family? I doubt it. Number two, there are economists all over the place who ask to be, no one knows exactly. Tens and tens of millions of jobs are going to be lost. What happens to the people who lose the jobs? Think they'll automatically go out and get another job? That does not appear to be the case. We are kids, hooked to AI bots for emotional support, becoming increasingly isolated. Should we worry about that? Yeah, we should. Politically, when I want to get to what it will mean to our democracy and politics in America, it's a big deal. But what last night was about is having very knowledgeable people talking about the real possibility that AI will escape human control, become independent, do its own thing. And the likelihood that that could lead to catastrophic implications, including extinction. So my job is not to fear manga, but it says, wait a second. You got Nobel Prize winners, Jeffrey Hinton saying this. Do you think we might want to take a deep breath and think about where we go from here? Yeah, there's this strange fatalism about it. And I think about when we've gone through other big technological changes. It wasn't assembly lines that put kids in factories. It was people that own the factories that made that decision. And it's not the technology itself that's being unleashed and hitting our kids and affecting our media. It's the people who own those tools that are distributing them and profiting off of them. How do we, there's this way in which this technology, it seems like magic, and we kind of lose our senses. And one of the things that came out of your discussion last night is treat this company's product like you went a Toyota or a Toyota or a tortilla chip. So what kind of regulations would you like to see if we sort of got our heads out of our asses here? What tag mark, Dr. Tagmar from MIT said, look, you go to a sandwich shop, right? You know what, it is regulated. The health department comes in to make sure the food you're eating is edible and a non-shop is clean. And yet the AI guys want to go forward with this revolutionary technology with no regulation. There is an enormous amount of work that has to be done. But John, the first thing that has to be done is that we have got to say, slow it down. Let us get our hands around it. The AI safety element about AI becoming independent of human control. You jisho, what do you do? A clearly you bring people from all over the world. Last night, as you know, we had scientists from China. Bring them together to sit down to advise governments around the world about how we slow this down so we don't lose control of the technology. In terms of economics, if millions and millions of workers lose their jobs, what do we do? Well, you know what, extending unemployment ain't going to be good enough. We're going to have to be thinking about a whole new social contract, et cetera, et cetera. This is, all that I'm saying here, this is a big, big deal. Congress is way behind where it should be. We need some serious discussion. So you had Chinese voices as part of this conversation. Scott Best and the Treasury Secretary posted a criticism of you saying that the real threat is letting any nation other than the United States set the global standard. What's your response to that criticism? Right. Mr. Best of the billionaire and the Trump administration billionaires working with Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Ellison, and a host of other billionaires who dominate AI. They're not a threat. Hey, we should all trust them because they have the betterment of the American people, et cetera. Well, forgive me. I don't accept that at all. So I think in China, they are smart enough. This gets me thinking about the nuclear arms race. You had a conservative Republican named Ronald Reagan sitting down with Gorbachev, then the premier of the Soviet Union, talking about the reality that a nuclear war would not be good for the Soviet Union, not be good for the United States. They work together on a nuclear arms treaty. You don't want the world human race losing control over AI in good for China, in good for America, in good for the world. Of course, we've got to work together. So as part of this, you proposed a moratorium on your data centers until we have these kinds of safeguards in place, your colleague, Senator Mark Warner, who's a pretty-- I think a mild-mannered guy called it idiocy because he's worried about losing this race to China. And I don't think he is not Trump. He's not Zuckerberg. What do you say to that criticism? For people who both agree there do need to be safeguards. But also, as much as we worry about these billionaires having so much sway, it would be worse if control of this technology by China surpassed us. This is not a race with China. This is a question of scientists sitting down and figuring out how we can prevent this technology from escaping human control with calamitous impact. I cannot believe that any sane person would be against that. That's my view. So we've got to get people to China all you want. But we have got to do everything that we can to prevent when some scientists think is a very dangerous situation. I guess I agree with that. But it's almost like these are two separate questions. Because if we were to slow down and China didn't slow down, it's not preventing this explanation. Look, the moratorium is not the end. All that I want from the moratorium is to give up-- maybe I'm crazy, John. Maybe I am. I know one of the people I'm hoping about, including my wife. If scientists who are Nobel Prize winners, guys who've gotten the Turing Award, which is the major award given to people in computer science, if they say to you that humanity is in danger, do you think you might want to do something about it? Or am I missing something? You tell me. So no, the percentages are also-- oh, there's only a 10% chance humanity is destroyed. It's like, well, I don't like those odds. Only a 10% chance. John, I know. I'm with you. This is the point. The point is that, again, either I'm nuts or a 10% chance, yeah, that the whole world might be destroyed. Yeah, I think we might want to get to work to prevent that. And this is preventable, by the way. It's nothing to do with competing against China. It's coming together to prevent what might be a catastrophe. Right. It seems like-- you mentioned this in the past. And last night, President Trump and the leader of China, either going to meet and AI may be part of what they're discussing. What do you hope-- what do you hope would come out of it? that kind of conversation. I was glad to see that the Wall Street Journal reported that that would be part of their agenda and that's a very positive thing and I hope that they sit down and say look your scientists in the United States scientists in China agree this is a danger it works to nobody's advantage to allow this to happen okay not China not the United States bring together the scientific community develop some protocols to prevent that you don't want a technology that can escape human control can we bring that about we can but you're going to have to have people from China the United States other countries working on something which would eventually then I suspect a little bit over my head here you know become something like an international treaty right and then and then in between that right there's so there's the kind of broader threat of this technology escaping our control but in between there and now there's the ways in which kids are getting sucked into this technology there's the ways it's affecting our media and it does seem as though the industry would benefit from a set of regulations that allow them to compete on non evil aspects of the technology and continue to develop and grow and improve the technology in ways that are beneficial to people rather than these sort of toxic and parasitic implications let's get to another issue and to ask you know this is not because members of congress are dumb or don't know what's going on it has a lot to do with the power and the financial resources of AI and their super PACs we're talking about many many many hundreds of millions of dollars coming into the midterm elections right now so you're running for congress okay and you're out of kid and you're worried about the impact of AI you think you're going to stand up and say well you know I think we need some sensible regulations here and then the AI industry says really well I guess what I got a ten million dollar check going in to negative ads against you which takes us John from the dangers of AI to a corrupt campaign finance system which is undermining American democracy so I talked to center Chris Murphy about this recently and he's worried about this too that the democrats won't draw an effective contrast with republicans you know Trump and the republicans they forget sensible regulations they they even tried to prevent state regulations so they tried to take us in the other direction but but Murphy was worried about is because there's this sort of damacles of all this cash hanging over democrats heads that people will not take a strong stand what what do you say to democrats who worried about that well Chris what Chris told you was right um but it speaks to the need for us to be honest about where we are is a country look all of us are concerned about Trump's pathological lying his attempt to undermine democracy in so many ways I think every democrat I'm an independent caucuses with the democrats agrees with that but there is another threat to democracy and that is the power of big money over the political process and that is why I circulated a letter with a number of my colleagues saying that while we work we must work to overturn this disastrous citizens united supreme court decision which allows billionaires to spend as much money as they want to buy elections at the very least democrats within democratic primaries their presidential primaries as well as congressional and other primaries got to get super PAC money out of those primaries yeah no you you sent that letter this week it actually follows a letter you sent about a year ago this was to center Schumer to Ken Martin the head of the DNC basically you know let's first wear super PACs inside of our own primaries and you know that Ken Martin responded by saying he's in spirit behind it but that that his hands seem to be tied what is the reluctance do you think of just fully embracing this kind of and he's smiling all right what is it what's happening tell me it's not it's not a very hard question to answer what do you think the answer is what do you think the establishment democratic establishment is doing right now as we speak hustling this money I've they're right that's right okay you know they're hustling money from AI industry they're hustling money from APAC to hustling money from crypto and from other special interests all right they got that money and then they use what they do with it what they do but this is really insidious and I think progressives increasingly understand that that money often which comes by the way from truckers Republicans is going to be used against progressives and decent people who are running in primaries this podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. 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Get 5% back on the chime card in a category of your choice like gasser groceries you get savings they grow fast with a 3.75% APY that's nine times higher than the national average plus you get premium travel perks like airport lounge access and 24/7 travel concierge included with your chime card they also have spot me which lets you overdraft of the $200 fee free chime is rated five stars by USA today for customer service real humans 24/7 chime is not just smarter banking it's the most rewarding way to bank join the millions who are already banking fee free today head to chime.com slash crooked that's chime dot com slash crooked it only takes a few minutes to sign up chime is a fintech not a bank banking services for my pay and chime card provided by chimes bank partners optional products and services may have fees or charges stated annual percentage yield and cash back for chime prime only no minimum balance required for more information on APY rates my pay spot me in travel perks go to chime dot com slash disclosures so I want to go back to just I'm glad we talked about the the super pack money from a but I do want to talk about the economic implications because that's the other part of this existential threat you you talked about attacks on companies that get rid of jobs for automation or for robots but it kind of get to the point of the scale of this problem if really a hundred million jobs could potentially be at risk like to your point we'd have to think about a much different social compact right now if a company hires a worker they pay payroll taxes they are charged money for every worker on the books right and we've actually shifted the burden of taxes towards income and towards labor and away from corporate income if a company buys a machine to do that job according to our tax code you could not only pay no taxes on it you get a depreciation get a credit so any the proposal you have is a sort of mitigation but the whole code is tilted against human beings so I think you know we have not yet all the we our main thrust right now is to say slow it down so we can get our hands around all this and I just had a meeting today with my staff to start working on what a sensible solution would be and an easy stuff because what we're dealing with is unprecedented problems but to your point this in my view goes beyond say oh we got to extend unemployment benefits fine yeah we need what's called a trade adjustment assistance if you lose your job the AI will retrain you fine it goes a lot deeper than that because this technological revolution is so sweeping that what we need to be talking about is a new social contract all right it's not say hey you lose your job you can get unemployment great we need to go a lot deeper than that because you may never get another job you're a 50-year-old truck driver today and you replace by a driver this vehicle we're even gonna go out and get a job it's not like you could walk down the street and get another job that job may not be there so we need to think really in in new ways as to how we address these crises yeah like you know I'm I'm talking to you in California and we live in a kind of signal example of this because we are in the what the fifth fourth largest economy in the world driven primarily from you know half to dozen companies in Silicon Valley that are growing exponentially but don't hire, they're not hiring at a rate to match the scale of their growth and if we have a tax code in which we've lowered the corporate rate, we basically have said our tax code says we would rather a company be gigantic and employ no one than be kind of profitable while employing hundreds of thousands of people. That is what our tax code currently prefers. But let me throw something else out to you here. And again, the truth is nobody knows exactly what is going to happen. Honest people have differences of opinion as to the nature of the job loss, how quickly it will occur, etc. But if, underlined if, tens of millions of people lose their jobs, they're not paying any taxes at all on it. How you going to sustain programs like social security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc., etc. How you going to sustain government? So, you know, these are profound questions that we've got to adjust. But bottom line is I think we're talking about a new social compact. How do we make sure this revolutionary technology improves human life economically, socially, psychologically, and of course, prevents any kind of catastrophe? Swinging years, in April of last year, only 15 Democrats voted with your resolution of block weapon sales to Israel. Now, two weeks ago, 40 Democrats joined you. There is a profound shift happening. Obviously, that is driven by the ways in which Israel has conducted its military campaigning Gaza the way it has been expanding settlements, its incursion into Lebanon. What are you observing about this shift in democratic politics among your colleagues? And what does it tell you about where we're heading? What it tells me, and by the way, it is not just Democrats, it's Republicans as well. And I think you're going to see movement in the direction you described among Republicans in the not-too-distant future. Look, we have an economy with 60% of our people living paycheck to paycheck. People are hurting, can't afford health care, housing, educating their kids, child care, et cetera. Then they look up, and they see that President Trump wants to provide billions of dollars of military aid to the extremist Netanyahu government in Israel. And they look and they say, "Really? Well, what has this government done?" And we all know the Hamas as a terrorist organization that attacked Israel in a horrible way, killing 1,200 people. Israel had a right to respond. But they did not have a right to go to war against the entire Palestinian people. 2.2 million people in the area killed 72,000 of them, mostly women, children, and the elderly, injured something like 170,000. That's more than 10% of the population killed or wounded, wiped out almost the entire infrastructure. And what people, including myself, I think, have concluded this is a genocidal attack. So people are looking, and then they say, "Well, that's bad. Why do we give them money to a government does that?" And then we wake up a few months ago, and Israel has gotten Netanyahu after 40 years of effort, Netanyahu, who finally found a President who was willing to go to war against Iran, attacks Iran in the middle of the night. Great. We're off in another war. Price of gas is now going up, killing school children in Iran. Israel now is in Lebanon, displacing over a million people, killing bombing civilian neighborhoods. As you indicated in the West Bank, like vigilantes now killing Palestinians, destroying farms, destroying homes. Who in their right mind wants to continue to fund a government that does that? And the polls tell us that. And Democrats look at the polls and they say, "I go home. I hold a town meeting. Why the hell are you funding Netanyahu's government?" So they're beginning to catch on. And as you indicated, more and more, now we have 40 out of 47 members of the caucus. We're saying no more. Yeah, I mean, this has been an issue in primaries across the country right now that are playing out today. Janet Mill suspended her campaign, which means that Graham Platner will be the nominee. He's somebody that's been outspoken about this. What, did you have any reaction to what, what happened in Maine? Yeah, I do. And I got to tell you, John, you know, I've been all over the country. And you have to trust me on this. But whenever I talk about what was going on in Gaza, just people would stand up and, you know, really express their feelings. This is a very emotional issue for people all over this country who do not want to be complicit in killing women and children and destroying all of Gaza. So I think, you know, what Platner is doing, he has run a brilliant campaign to my mind. Not dissimilar. It's a main is obviously a very rural state, but not radically dissimilar from what Mamdani did in New York City, which is clearly the largest city in America. What do they do? They both have taken, brought forth an agenda that is prepared to take on the oligarchs and the big money interests. Nobody, a very few people in America think that it's okay that the top 1% now owns more wealth than the bottom 93% or that Elon Musk himself owns more wealth than the bottom 53% of American households. So what makes sense? So Mamdani talked about it. That's what Platner is talking about. And they have an agenda that speaks to the needs of working people, health care for all education for all, et cetera, et cetera. So I see that happening, not just in New York City in Maine, I see it happening in communities all over this country. Tomorrow's a matter of fact, tomorrow night, I will be in Ohio. Then I'll be in Minnesota. Then I'll be in Detroit with Abdul El-Sahed in Detroit, Peggy Flanagan in Minnesota, Mr. Point Dexter, Brian Point Dexter in Ohio. People now are raising these issues. Working class people are sick and tired of the greed of the big money interests they want to government that represents all of us. Not just the few. So you spent time in Israel as a young man on a conbutz. You've talked about being part of the Jewish tradition of social justice. A few years ago you wrote about this. You said you're pride and admiration for Israel lives alongside your support for Palestinian freedom and independence. What do you say to people, especially younger Jewish people who find it impossible to feel any pride or admiration for an Israel that does not uphold Jewish values? Well, look, right now you have, you know, when you talk about what I don't like, and Netanyahu pushes this all of the time, that if you are critical of the horrific policies that Netanyahu government, you are somehow an anti-Semite. And that is totally absurd. As that happens, my father's family was kind of wiped out in Poland by Hitler. I am not an anti-Semite. And in fact, anti-Semitism is a growing and serious problem all over the world. What has gone on for whatever reason that I am not the most knowledgeable guy in the world on? Israel, over the last number of years, has become God from being a moderate liberal type country to a right-wing extremist country in which, by the way, Netanyahu is not even the worst. I mean, you're talking about guys there, really kind of racist guys who really want expansionism. So we have got to oppose that government. And hopefully the day will come when Israel will elect people who understand that we need to they need to be working with their neighbors, and not just simply trying to dominate them in terrible ways. What do you say to younger people, especially younger Jews who now feel they grew up seeing in Israel led by Netanyahu. They've watched these atrocities unfold over the last few years, and it's led them to believe the problem just isn't Benjamin Netanyahu that there's something fundamentally wrong about the project of Israel. No, I don't have a magical answer to that right now, but right now what I am trying to do is to make sure that the United States government is not complicit in the horrific acts of the Netanyahu government. We can talk about where we go from there, but that's where I am right now. What do you think if you saw that 20-something Bernie Sanders on a kabut and he said, "Hey, 60 years from now, I'm going to be fighting in the Senate against the robots." Well, and by the way, I would tell you when I was, you know, I don't know how much you know about the history of the kabut scene formed by, you know, Jews who left the anti-Semitism of Europe. When I was, these were very, very progressive entities. Women, you know, it was democratically owned and controlled. Women had rights that they didn't have in the United States. We'll lead us in a way that was not true. All the people were playing an act of role. It was an interesting and novel model, which I have to believe it, but obviously that is not what Israel is about today. And going from where I was as a kid to being a United States Senator dealing with these issues, it's been a long journey to say to this, yeah. Senator Sanders, thanks for your time. Good to talk to you. Thank you, Joe. Thanks to Senator Sanders. for joining us when we come back. I talk to Peter Hamby. (upbeat music) - Positive America is brought to you by Willey's Remedy. - How does Willey's make you feel? - Love Willey's makes you feel great. - It's actually very well-dosed. - It's the best. - Portions. - You take, it's like a little shot glass. It's all you take. - Take a shot of it. - Take a shot of it. - Or less, or a little bit less. Have a nice time. - More of a nice time. - I've been pouring it, it's like a little fizzy drink. - It's great. - They even have sodas too, that are great. 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You wrote, democratic elected and other party leaders vehemently condemn political violence all the time, but many on the left have become too comfortable. Celebrating violence or bad luck that defaults their Trumpian enemies. They are too loose with their language, too cozy with conspiracies that can lead to a dark place. Now you're very clear in this piece, which you wrote after the assassination attempt at the White House correspondent's dinner. Very clear about the ways in which the right looks, past Trump's calls to violence, exploits, tragedies, to target the left, but even still, I am sure there are people hearing this and thinking the most powerful person on the earth encouraged an insurrection, seeks to jail's enemies, celebrates the deaths of people like Robert Mueller and Rob Reiner, and you're talking about random people on the internet. So what are you seeing and why do you think it's important? - I think the phrase random people on the internet actually matters, first of all. And I do wanna say thank you for saying that, acknowledging that part of the piece, 'cause I felt like I wrote 10 paragraphs about Caroline Leavitt mischaracterizing or lying about how various people, Hakeem Jeffries, used terms like warfare, quote unquote, to refer to redistricting, the redistricting wars. I mean, we've both been in politics for a long time, people use terms like combat or murder suicide or just violent martial terms. This comes up in sports commentary all the time. - Shakespeare was familiar with metaphor as well. - Yes, yeah, it's okay. - And I consider Hakeem Jeffries, the Shakespeare people that do the alphabet. - Yeah, I do too. I consider the loss of people who do the alphabet. He would like that reference. I think that the random people on the internet think matters, and I thought about this with John, Fabro, other John, who after Charlie Kirk was killed, noticed, yes, random people on the internet, random TikTokers celebrating his death. And even as I was walking in here, Taylor Lorenz posted a tweet, or maybe not a tweet, maybe a blue sky or a thread, that people are using the sound of Charlie Kirk getting shot, the gun shot, to do quick cut edits of outfit changes. And that just, again, diminishes, I think. - I didn't know that was happening. - What happened? And you don't have to like Charlie Kirk? I don't, this is our thing, John. I know coming in here, this is a founding principle of crooked media. And I feel like this came from John Love It Brain, which is the DC media's tendency to both sides think. That is not me. And for the people listening, I'm not that journalist. But I was there in the ballroom. And part of it too is I've read polls, right? Like in the first Trump term, obviously in the Obama years, people blamed Trump and Republicans for the crazy, for the conspiracy theories. Voters did. NPR had a poll, I think, in 2017, saying 70% of voters blamed Trump and Republicans for the toxicity in our politics. And there was a moral and intellectual high ground, I think, long in the Democratic Party. There hasn't been widespread political violence coming from the left since the '70s, with the weather underground, black panthers, et cetera. There's obviously been anti-government violence. You've got black, black, antifa, types, and whatever. But there has been an uptick in partisan motivated, not just violence, but plots. There was somebody who showed up at the Capitol last year wanting to kill Pete Hegseth. That person was arrested. There's obviously two of the three assassins, attempted assassins on Donald Trump, sounded like they had left-leaning political views. And again, back to the random people on the internet thing. It's not coming from Democratic politicians. It's not. It's really not. Now there's like Jasmine Crockett, posted a conspiracy theory the other day, that the attack on the Washington Hilton might have been a false flag or whatever. The problem is the diminishing power of people like me and the mainstream press, and the diminishing ability of normy politicians to get out there in the information ecosystem and have people hear them. That stuff is being replaced just by noise and slop on the internet. And it does seem like to me, and I think the evidence in the polling bears us out, that liberals and progressives, and by the way, some people might just be fake bots. They might be, JD Vance likes to totally, and the right completely exploit, even the fringiest thing that you found in the internet and pretend it's like the mainstream view of the Democratic Party. And I make clear in the piece, as you read, Democrats aren't the one saying this. It is though, kind of ambient on the internet. And I think, I actually wanted to ask you about this. The Michelle Obama, they, you know, when they go low, we go high thing. That feels dead and gone and like millennial cringe at this point. In the second Trump term there has, it has been celebrated that like, we're going to fight dirty. It's, and I'm not, I'm just trying to be civility police either, dude. - Yeah. - At all. - No. - But like, people just feel like, okay, we're going to play on their terms, get in their sandbox, we're going to throw punches, call names. And then, you know, then maybe, maybe you end up with a guy who's got a screw loose who hears all the stuff on the internet and thinks I've got to go kill the rapist, fascist, pedophile in the White House. I just think that it's easier to hear the crazy stuff that the algorithms have poured gasoline on than it ever was, and you just hear it more on the left than I think you used to. - Yeah, it's like, there's so many parts that you have to tease out, right? And I, there was an, like a big distinction. It isn't coming from the vast majority of democratic politicians, right? And there is just a distinction between how responsible elected Republicans are, including the president versus how responsible elected Democrats are, even this week, we saw what is obviously a ridiculous prosecution of James Comey, the number of Republicans refusing to criticize that or open the embracing that. People go, members of Congress saying, well, look at all the other bad things Jim Comey did, right? It is distinct from political violence, but embracing the jailing of your political enemies on specious reasons is adjacent to a politics in which people can celebrate political violence. But the challenge is, most Americans deplore political violence, all the mainstream politicians on the left can deplore political violence. 95% of people say the right thing. Then the next day, 100% of people spend the day talking about what the 5% said and how heinous it is and how it's actually justified in all the rest. You know, we, at Kirk and Media, I feel like we take some flack from all directions for this, but we obviously do. denounced Republicans when they try to exploit political violence. We also try to go after what we see people, when we see people justifying it, John, as you mentioned, did that as well in the piece. But if everybody but a few are doing the right thing, but we end up talking about what the wrong thing is, I don't know what the right thing, how do you respond in a media environment like that, in which we try to model best behavior, there's the Democrats say the right thing, but you have Republicans that are going to pull out the worst comments from the internet. You have an algorithm that's going to elevate the most exciting and morally depraved comments. What do we do? Okay, I agree. There's a problem. What do we do? Yeah. Well, that's getting you to say that. I know you're a sophisticated thinker about this stuff. So it is important to say that there was a problem, and I want to say, this isn't just my feelings. This is me being a hack political journalist. I just should point out also in the piece, the Center for Strategic and International Studies, which has measured this and has kept track of incidents, 2025 was the first year ever that left wing violence and plots and or plots surpass right wing violence and or plots say that's only eight plots. That's only eight plots. And this is another thing I need to say. Again, like the left was there was no violence, no plots for like 30 years. Most of the actual deaths from political violence in this country over the last 30 years have come from right wing political violence. And we're talking like in the hundreds, okay? And so yes, the baseline for Democrats and the left, whatever the coalition is, was very low. It just has ticked up. And I think you're though right, John, I remember when I worked at CNN back when you were in the White House in the 2010s, there was this like, do you remember watching like the cable news in that era and CNN where I worked or whatever, like a random Republican state legislator in Missouri would say something loony about abortion or something racist about Obama. And we would all elevate it and be like, this is an example of the Republican Party being nuts. And while the Republican Party does have a tendency to accommodate, and by the way, this is just history, the birchers and the conspiracy theorists and whatever, you need to hear from someone on Capitol Hill, like someone from like John Thune's office, like, why the fuck are you talking about this random guy in Missouri? And so that is a absolute, intentional problem that the press has and kind of always has. By the way, since then, that random state senator in Missouri is now like probably on Capitol Hill in the mainstream of the Republican Party. I just think it is what you guys do. It's that you have to call it out and say there's no room for it. And the other thing we're talking about isn't as violence. It is the conspiracy theorizing. And those two are not the same, but they are connected, you know, the people who, I think, tend to commit acts of violence in the name of politics, like C's on conspiracy theories. They do. And I noticed this on Snapchat, when I put, I work at Snap and like posted on Snap, I had a bunch of people in my comments being like fake stage, whatever, well, it's not, we don't know that those people are even Democrats. They could just be some teenager like on, like, sitting in their basement somewhere. But there, this has been happening, again, this gets to the higher intellectual standard that I think Democrats use to hold themselves to, you know, in Obama's term at some point, some press conference in the tan suit era might have been like Ed Henry, it was like in the White House briefing room. And there was the latest outrage of the day, whatever somebody wanted Obama to be outraged about. I think it was Ed Henry said, you know, Mr. President, why are you more outraged? And I tried to look this up before coming in. I couldn't find it. Someone listening, please find it. It's probably in favor of his encyclopedic brain, but Obama looks at him and goes, because I haven't read the briefs. And that was Obama being a lawyer, but it was also just a smart person who he'd closely to facts and didn't want to spout off on something where he didn't know the baseline information. And we've come a long way on the internet since then. Like social media has rampantly changed how people's instincts, when it comes to responding, gathering facts. You know, I think that's hurt everybody, it's hurt everybody across the board and, you know, I just think that you see it more now on the left than you used to. I sting out that article with a quote from Isaac Asimov who became a big Democrat later in his life, hated Nixon, like just a raging Democrat. And he said, like the anti-intellectual strain in this country was always on the right. And liberals would fight ignorance with knowledge. And conservatives would fight knowledge with ignorance. There's a lot more ignorance out there, man, on the left now. I'm sorry. There just is. And like, maybe I'm just being idealistic about, you know, the great thinkers of the American left and what they cared about compared to the right. But it just feels like the fever swamps of the internet are just grabbing otherwise normal people and yanking them in, and it's depressing to me. Yeah, I don't know, it's hard not, you know, to be nostalgic for how we used to have information. I do. I look, I see it too. And I do think it's more than just a few random people. There is something that has happened and it isn't coming from the politicians. I do think there's a bigger shift. And I think it's important, as you pointed out, political violence in our country still is very, very rare. And so I feel like there's these two ideas you have to have in your mind at the same time. One being that we can't allow acts of violence by individuals who are united, regardless of ideology, by a willingness to do violence, right? That's the most important thing about a mass shooter about the person that shot Charlie Kirk, this person, the person that shot at Gabby Giffords, right, that they're willing to go to this extreme and do violence and sometimes their rationales are cogent, sometimes their rationales are nonsense. The act of violence that unites them and there's something rising, whether it's people willing to shoot up a school, people wanting to go out of blaze of glory. And we cannot arrange our society around that. We can't allow that to warp our politics too much because it is so rare in our society. But at the same time, it does seem to be an emergent property of the amount of vitriol hate, lack of empathy, cruelty on the internet and beyond. I think that Trump is both a cause of and a symptom of and I struggle with how you think about those two things. But the comfort that people have, right, whether it's the shooting of the United Health Care CEO or the killing of Charlie Kirk, that is morally wrong before you even get to whether it will encourage future violence. It said something really ugly about our politics and our culture and I do think that that is real. So that's like the, that's the thing I struggle with. There's something else interesting. I just, this is an obvious thought, but I just thought about it. When you think about Luigi, you think about the Butler shooter. We don't know his politics and the guy from the Hilton. All these people and the Charlie Kirk shooter are young. Obviously, there's the idea of the school shooter and the serial killer and the lone wolf killer out there. You tend to be white men, but all of these examples are people who grew up online. We grew up online, but like in middle school in high school, I just said AOL, but like these people grew up with phones in their pockets and so that they have so many more touch points to dark places on the internet. But I'm in dark places. That's sort of what I'm talking about. It's that, you know, like Jennifer Welch on the, I've had a podcast the other day was entertaining these conspiracy theories about how Trump was like, this was a false flag so he could ballroom and I'm saying she's spreading hate speech. But like, that's one of the ascendant podcasters on the left. Like I just, there, there aren't any real epistemological boundaries, I feel like at this point. And you know, you can be a liberal in this and Jennifer Welch or this or going to Twitch stream or whatever. But all of those young people did, like you said, I'm not being nostalgic for an old media time necessarily. I'm just like, I call myself a student of media history, but they don't know a time of like monoculture, Walter Carcayde, anything. There's no shared facts. And like, you know, it just, the conspiracy, yeah, like the conspiracy theory embraced that we see across the board. I do think there's something about some people think it's just fun, by the way. Like, I friends were like, conspiracy theorists are fun. Yeah. There's something about the way in which the internet encourages you that, that we're all being encouraged to embrace easy and quick comfort across our lives. And social media does that, right? Like you don't have to have any discipline of attention whatsoever. You can just get a jolt of something fun, something funny, something outrageous, whatever. Get a quick like hit of an endorphin or an emotion. You don't have to leave the house to see a movie. You can just stay in bed, whatever you can have food comes to your house. Like, we're very, we're easy, easy to satisfy, uncomfortable with any kind of discomfort. And when there's something horrible that happens like the killing of Charlie Kirk, in which you, I think, more morally are called to denounce the killing of someone you found reprehensible, that tiny bit of friction, that tiny bit of discomfort, there's a whole algorithm that's telling you, you don't have to feel that anymore. And the same thing with someone trying to assassinate Donald Trump because of use you might agree with, wouldn't it be nice if there were way you didn't have to sit with that for even a moment? Well, guess what there is, because it turns out maybe it was staged. And we live in a crazy world in which there were legitimate news stories that, in Hungary, Trump's ally, there was a plan to stage an assassination attempt to help Victor Orbán in the final days of the election. That is, that is real reporting about something real that very well could have happened in the world. There's also conspiracy theory that Trump wouldn't leave office if he lost. Of course. Of course. And there was a conspiracy theory that a powerful cobalt of abusers were protecting Jeffrey Epstein. A lot of people have come to believe that conspiracy theories had some merit. And the truth is, the great conspiracy theories always do begin with a kernel of truth in them or a lot of the great ones do. So I understand where that impulse comes from and I understand how the internet feeds it. I just think that it is incumbent upon democratic politicians to try so hard to keep what was Ernie and the trash can, like whatever, just like push it down. Like Mark Kelly came out with the, is Ernie? Oscar was the great. Oscar. Right. Ernie is the, Ernie is the, Ernie is the happy gay couple on the outside. Yeah, sorry. No offense. The happy gay couple. Um, Mark Kelly put out, I mean, who cares, Mark Kelly thinks, but like a subset. I care. Sure. I care. And I, I think you said the other day on this podcast, referencing Chris Murphy talking after the, the United Health Care murder, um, I forget the anecdote. Why did this come up? I think like Nate Silver wrote about it that he sort of said like, I acknowledge why people like hate insurance companies. What, what did Chris? I don't, I don't, I, I was referencing people who had, I was referencing that someone, I think like a prominent conservative had said that the shooter at the White House correspondent in her, his rhetoric is indistinguishable from that of Chris Murphy as if that's an indictment of Chris Murphy. Got it. That's what I was referring to. Got it. I believe. I think I don't want to pair like Miss Cass with Chris Murphy said. He's probably listening. Um, but again, the press certainly has less power than we used to, um, and, and, you know, maybe wrongly the press was the arbiter of common decency for many decades in this country. Um, but, you know, politicians are akin to where people get a lot of news now. Influencers creators. They're famous people on the internet. That's who they are. And, uh, they have a responsibility to call it out when it happens. It's just really hard. Like, again, this is in a leaderless party. No one, like attention matters, getting attention matters. This is one of my beats. Like, Rokana can call it out. Chuck Schumer can call it out. A list of slack can call it out, but, you know, the, which, which random normie in Ohio is listening to any of those people. Well, I, look, I think sometimes in our politics, we treat Democrats like the protagonist with agency and Republicans are the, the villains who will do what villains do. I sometimes think we do the same thing with people on the internet now that, of course, democratic politicians are going to say the thing, same thing. But there's nothing we can do about the, the influencers, but I, uh, influencers have responsibility. Part of this is, I think there's some insane YouTube tiles out there, man. There's some for sure, but, but the, I don't know, I think sometimes we have to, if the people who are going to be helping to shape what people view as the kind of bounds of appropriate political discourse, if that's not going to be coming from politicians or mainstream media, if it's going to become from people on the internet, then that comes with responsibility. You know, like in, in 2024, I think a lot of people felt like you had people in the kind of manosphere, the, the kind of independent, kind of right adjacent podcast world embracing their power, but not their responsibility, right? They're, they're powered to influence their power to get big people on their power to reach tens of millions of people, but not their responsibility to, yeah, they're just an unfrozen caveman lawyer. They don't know what's right. Yeah, yeah. I'm just a big chicken. You know, I'm just a big chicken, uh, but, uh, you know, it's funny about that. I have some data on this this week, the AP came out of the poll about media habits, and it's a really interesting poll because they also have poll teenagers, but, um, all the elite sort of things that we, we do as former DCers and political junkies, listen to podcasts, subscribe to newsletters, um, trying to think of some other one. Oh, pay for new, subscribe to news, um, vast majorities of Americans don't do those things. They really don't. And by the way, podcast a little different because they'll also watch it on YouTube or whatever. Um, but the one thing that has really popped is influencers and creators. For a long time in these polls, could be Pew, could the AP that asked people how they get their news, social media was just sort of an umbrella term that could be snap, could be YouTube, it could be meta, whatever clips and mainstream content, by the way, as well. Totally. Um, but they actually asked specifically about influencers and creators and near majorities of Americans say they get news from influencers and creators now and that's a huge shift in just a few years. And so that gets to what you're saying about responsibility influencers and creators are now on the par on par with, according to this poll, local TV news, radio, terrestrial radio still matters, search engines still matter, uh, way more than like AI, um, and like television. And so like that's just really, really taken off and I agree with you and you've seen that with the O'Von and Andrew Schultz after the election when, you know, they're deporting, uh, rounding up and deporting people and separating mothers from their children, uh, or whatever, doge. I didn't vote for this, um, cause I was just playing the humble on frozen caveman lawyer, uh, but they have to, I, I think they're becoming more responsible, actually, at least in terms of acknowledging their power, these people are at the inauguration for the president of the United States. But I, and I, and I, I do think that we, we're due for a similar turn on the left of people with big platforms, we reach a big audience, uh, viewing a responsibility and, and like, you know, we're here and we try to have honest conversations, but part of being, having, I think part of what being responsible it is, is, is you try to be honest, critical where you think it's helpful, critical, maybe we think it's unhelpful, but needs to be said at times. But view, view what you're trying to do is, as more than just saying what you happen to think or feel in that moment, right? Like that's what I think the difference is between what Obama did in that press conference you're talking about and what a lot of members of Congress do every time a camera comes in front of their faces, which is just take a moment and say, you know what, I'm going to take a beat and make sure that I'm sharing good information or like interrogating a bias for one moment. Or knowing that even if I feel something in the moment that I believe is true, I know that I have a responsibility to my audience to not become a tool of the right. Yeah. I also think I really want to pay you guys a sincere compliment and I'm friends with you live in the same city. We socialize. I get that. I still listen to this podcast, spite of knowing how personally annoying each and every one of you is because you are willing to interrogate collective assumptions on the left. You are willing to tangle with those ideas. We saw it this week with the Ken Martin interview, but you guys frequently will have people on. And I think this a lot about a variety of left leaning media. You don't just tell people what they want to hear. You tell people sometimes, maybe not as much as other news organizations, what they need to hear. And I think that's really important because I do think that maybe this is the Obama example, but like wrestling with ideas is like really good. It's really good and healthy and not, there's just such blind partisanship now. And this is where I will say on both sides that, you know, the battle for ideas is hard. It's hard to inhabit, not the middle, but it's hard to present nuance to people. That's why I wrote 10 paragraphs in that frickin puck article before I could get to the point because I had to say over and over again, Trump inspired January 6th, Trump inspired male bombers. The Trump Republican Party welcomed Nazis and liars in mainstreams, this poison. But, you know, social media has taken it to another level and other people are getting yanked into it. I think what we're talking about, and that's very nice of you to say, it is not my experience that there's a lot of blind partisanship on the left. I, my view of where we're at right now is actually-- But sorry, blind negative partisanship. Negative partisanship. That's right. No, I agree with that. But what I was going to say only is that I think like what we're circling, which I think relates to the conspiracy theories, the willingness to celebrate or kind of tolerate or kind of even just sort of minimize political violence, like it's forbearance, which is just the idea of restraint and being like kind of willing to lose and willing to take a shot to your ego at times in politics. And that's why, this is why us old millennials are the best generation. We are the best generation because vaccinated against Republicans by George W. Bush continue. - We had debates in our dorms, you know? At Georgetown we had something called Red Square, which was a free speech zone. I know that sounds math but now. But like you could have debates and interrogate things you didn't have social media poisoning it, you know? I don't know, maybe that's an elite view. But baby boomers went to the right. Jen X is the last readout of Donald Trump right now. - Well boomers, by the way, boomers are, I wrote about this last year. Boomers have shifted to the left because boomers now were hippies. Boomers are our parents. - But they still hold onto some, you know, pluralistic values. Jen X is the bad one because they were Alex P. Keaton. Like the thing that happens is your politics in your 20s. Like that's what it generally is later in life. And so the Jen X folks, you know, put aside all the rock music and pop culture. Like those were the Alex P. Keaton. - So yeah, the Jen X is really kind of moved to the right. But then also some of the, the Gen Z is moved a bit to the right. And millennials are actually not moving to the right at the same degree over time as previous generations have. The millennials are holding out greatest generation. All right. - Here's that broke off. - Yeah. - What happened to him? - All right. Before we go to break, I want to thank everybody who has become a friend of the pod subscriber. And if you haven't subscribed yet, please, please, please, become a friend of the pod. Join this community. You get our special episode, Potsave America Only Friends. That's where we really let loose with our Potsave America episode that's just for subscribers. You get polar coaster. That's Dan's show where he breaks down all the latest polling. You get open tabs, the behind the scenes newsletter from PSA Editor Reed Chirlin. There's ad-free breaking news from pod save America. And not only do you get all of that great content and ad-free episodes, you help support independent pro democracy media. 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(upbeat music) All right, let's hit some more topics. Platinum, Jenna Mills out. Political report yesterday in calls from Democrats for Schumer to drop his involvement in the Iowa and Michigan primaries. What was your reaction to the Mills news and the general state of play in these primaries? Surprise, but not surprise. I think Mills got in late, Platinum got in what last August, September went super viral, raised a lot of money. Great vibes for the moment, nationally for Democrats, you know, raging against the establishment. I am more looking forward than thinking about the surprise 'cause he was up 33, 40 points in the most recent. I think Emerson had him up 33 at the end of April. This is a jump ball race. Like it's going to be very hard and their grandpleter does have baggage. It's not even the TottenConf tattoo or whatever. It's the Reddit post. I think we saw an article in the Free Beacon today, which is an op-o dump for Republicans showing that Platinum paid for his house with a loan from his wealthy father, not the VA, like he said. I just think there's lots of stuff there and by the way, all this is to say, he can still win. Trump's at like 33, 34% approval. I think Maine is tougher than certain states and here's why. And again, he can win. A lot of times you win with a pure contrast and she's unpopular Susan Collins. I think her own faves are like 57%. They got to win there. They got to win Alaska. They got to win Ohio and Iowa and all these places. Maine is the oldest electorate in the country. So it's also not very partisan. You've got a third of the state is independent, John. So that helps someone like Platinum, I think. I'm not from the system that could appeal. You've got that Maine Second Congressional District, which is represented by Jared Golden. For a while, who's a moderate and different like, Platinum's a Lib. Golden was a moderate, both have tattoos. But he won in Maine too, which is a district Trump won in the last two presidential elections by being just a purebred moderate, Jared Golden. So, putting on Reddit that black people don't tip, that women shouldn't get so drunk, that they get sexually assaulted, honestly, I love this episode that I forget which content it was from crooked media, but Pfeiffer and Alex Wadner did a piece on this a couple of weeks ago. And it was really interesting listening to Alex. And I thought she was very sharp, because I think a lot of the initial commentary supporting Platinum in Jump to the Race was coming from men. And when these posts came out, not that Alex Wadner wouldn't vote for Grand Platinum or Susan Collins, but like, I think women might be a little squeamish about this, about him, in a race against a woman that has successfully won over and over and over again. I also brought some reporting to the show. I learned from some Republican pollsters that they had 12 to 13% of Susan, past Susan Collins voters, going for Janet Mills in this election. So that place of what Schumer was probably thinking about, like, this is an independent, older state, and we need someone safe to run against someone who's been reliable and reelected. So Platinum's got some work to do, I think. To reish, he's a young millennial tattoos, a history of inflammatory Reddit posts. We don't, clearly, I think Republicans are sitting on more stuff, but that's why I brought up the free beacon example. And he's got to convince voters in a state. It's like an old state. And that's, it's, it's going to be tough for him. But in this environment, Trump's, Trump's approverings are absolute dog shit. That's why we're talking about Alaska. That's why we're talking about Maine. That's why we're talking about even Ohio and Iowa. - We're in the home stretch here of the California governor's race. The two highest vote getters will move on to the general. Post-Small Wolves seen polls at show, Basera rising. CBS poll this week said, Steve Hilton leading with 16, then Styre at 15, Basera at 13, other polls have Basera higher. Where's your head out on this, on this race right now? - I think someone smartly framed it this way to me. And look nationally, like you might not care about a governor's race at California matters. Like Gavin Newsom will set a tailpipe of mission regulation and the rest of the country will follow. Like that's, that's what California is. So yes, these candidates are underwhelming. Someone compared to the 2020 presidential primary, where you've got not just a Tom Steyer once again, spending a lot of money, but you've got all these candidates who failed to catch fire. They pop in certain moments and fade. Javier Basera is just sort of emerging. The last four polls, two independent, I think, and two sort of partisan, have showed him climbing and having clear momentum. Styre and Katie Porter having a very hard time connecting with high information voters. Their negatives are very high. For all the money that Tom Steyer is spending, he's kind of hating a ceiling. Steyer has kind of come from behind to go to the front. I didn't quite get it either. It kind of came out of nowhere organically. He's not, hasn't spent a lot of money on television. I believe he spent, he spent, the money he has, I think he spent. He went up on TV like three, three or four weeks ago. At a key moment when he swallowed the drop. He, right, well I think as swallow was dropping, before swallow drop, he's up on the air. Yes. And so he's up on the air at a moment where all of a sudden there's all these swallow voters saying whoops. Yes. And Javier Basera is a boring person. Javier Basera, I talked to someone in the Biden administration about this other day. Kind of a loof is HHS Secretary, not incompetent, but just sort of like, he's not light in the world on fire. But he does have two things going for him right now in this governor's race, which is, by the primaries in June. He, there's a lot of confusion among voters. People don't like the choices. And they're just kind of falling back on him, which is sort of similar to the Biden experience in 2020, right? You just, you can win the primary at 23% of the vote, 25% of the vote. I'm not saying it's totally the same. And he's Latino. I mean, a third of the state is Latino. And I think the first part of that spot that went on TV about a month ago, it wasn't like Prop 50. It wasn't like Adam Schiff versus Katy Porter. Like, we gotta stop Donald Trump. It wasn't like Swalwell. It was my parents were immigrants. And it leads with bio. and then it gets into you know, working class, affordability issues, healthcare, prescription drugs. And so, for all of the, forget my term, libslop that you see in some of these TV ads and campaigns, like just raging against Trump and trying to go after the hardcore college-educated white MSNBC viewer voter. You know, he reaches a different kind of voter than just that. And that's a thing, like Porter, Steyer, Swalwell. There was no data suggesting they had any numbers of people of color in this state. And so, Basera is just emerging as like a safe choice right now. Steyer's going after him already. He's not a great debater. There's two debates coming up this coming week. I think CNN and NBC. So, we'll see if he can make it all the way to June. But he is the one with momentum right now, but it's sort of like boring momentum. I don't even work for it. Yeah, I know. I watched the last debate. I didn't want there was another debate this week. Well, it's terrible. The first debate. And there's a moment where they were all asked if they would support a per mile tax for electric vehicles because California has a very high gas tax. I think it's like 60 or somehow that's a gallon. Maybe a little more now. And so there's this purple idea that while we switched to electric vehicles, then no one's going to be paying for the roads, even though California has the worst roads in the country. And we pay the highest gas tax in the country. And so the question is, would you support a per mile tax for electric vehicles? And it got to, Basera and Basera said, well, it's definitely something we ought to perhaps take a look at. If that's something the voters are interested in, then I could get behind it. And then you go to, I think it was one of the Republicans and they're like, you're going to make everybody log all their miles. How fucking know? And I was like, that makes, like, there's like the passion on that stage. I talked to Katie Porter about this in my conversation with her that California isn't an emergency. Yes. We are losing people. We are losing our industries. And the only people up there that seem to have fire about it were the Republicans. The right-wing sheriff guy was like talking about the humanitarian crisis of homeless people. And like, again, his ideas are probably not great, but like he had passion. And you nailed it. I meant to say this about Basera actually. None of these people have big ideas. Stires like we'll break up the utilities, pass a billionaire's tax, whatever. Like, there was a question. This was a moderator issue actually in the CBS debate where they said, what are the first things you would do in the event of an earthquake? Like as governor, you're governor, you're in that seat. What are the three things you're going to do? You know, the thoughtful political leader would have said, well, like, let's think bigger. Like, how do we not get in that position in the first place? But they were all very content to be like, Basera included, well, we'll call in the first responders. And I'll call the federal government. And then we'll figure it out. You know, like, just that's the other thing. Beyond all the charisma and the horse race stuff that is characterized this race, nothing exciting. Like, big ideas are powerful. I mean, I know Bernie's on this episode too. Like, there's stires trying to sort of be in that lane a little bit. But everyone else is just sort of like. Katie Porter is a bitch. We'll figure it out. Well, this is where I press Katie Porter on this. Well, because she's talking about this plan to exempt $100,000 from or people making up $200,000 from the state income tax. And she has a way to pay for it. But and find like help people. California is very unaffordable. But like the problems are so kind of upriver from that. Like we're like the reason California is unaffordable when it has like the income tax rate hasn't gone up with what's gone up is the cost of housing. What's gone up is the is the cost of living in our state. What's gone up is and what's gone down is the availability of jobs for in Hollywood and other industries. And, and, you know, I talked about the housing conversation at least in the CBS debate I watch was infuriating. I mean, Matt Mayhann at least was like, here's what he didn't say. I want to build this many units. Tom Steyer said the same thing with people housing. But like, the people just say, like, Virugosa, we need to build more housing. No shit. Yeah. Like, well, I don't know. There's just not, there's just weren't a lot of compelling ideas there. Yeah. It's it's been pretty frustrating. But I I had a good conversation with Porter. I hope we get to talk to Basera. And so I think we're going to talk to Steyer next week. So we're going to talk to all those candidates. Last question. Why, hey, why'd they call it Puck? Is it after is it after the mid-Summer night's dream? Yeah. Yeah. So it's a puckish. It's a puckish organization. It's a organization. It's a organization. It's a literary inspiration. Okay. I think John Kelly who created Puck, a very literate man and thought Puck would be an inspiration because we like to be a little mischievous, I guess, and what you do. Your puckish. They subscribe. You as a person, I would have called you. How would you describe Puckish the adjective? How would you define that? A puckish, mischievous is a very good word for it. I would say mischievous with a joyful quality. Oh, is what I would say. I like that. My wife. Thanks. You're in, you know, a little stinker, you know, kind of energy. Peter Hamby, thank you so much. Good to talk to you. Good to see you, man. And that's our show. Thank you to Senator Sanders. Thank you to Peter Hamby. We will see you with a new episode on Tuesday. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Cricket. Podsave America is a cricket media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churland is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglon and Charlotte Landis. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Ben Heffkoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pellevive, David Tolls, and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the writer's Guild of America, East.