Bella Kay + Alexis Idarose Kesselman | “iloveitiloveitiloveit”+ How Great Collaborators Disagree

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If I feel it, somebody else feels it, and that's all that matters. That's the thing, is like, Bella can be so confidently unconfident in a really sick way. I had this amazing mix of confidence and hurt that I was like, whoa, this is a human being. I've kind of gotten, tried to unlearn the things that I've learned in the past couple months, because now I'm very like, verse, pre, chorus, and then verse, pre, chorus, bridge, outro. I think it's important to, like, have structure and know the things so you can know when to break the rules. Yeah. You got to know the rules so you can break them. I do. I was just like, this is like something I want to do so bad. And I was like, if I don't get a thousand followers by the end of the summer, I quit. How many did you get by the end of the summer? It might've been a hundred K that I had at that point. Jesus. Hello. I am Justin Tranter, pop songwriter, and this is Unfamous, the podcast where we geek out over the art of collaboration, the unfamous and untold stories of how your favorite things get made. Welcome to Unfamous. Now, normally it's a really awkward part of the podcast where I talk about you in front of you. Amazing. But instead of doing that, you're going to brag about your collaborator and introduce each other to the world. Who would like to go first? I'll go first. Okay. There you go. There you go. This is Bella K. Bella Williams. Bella is from Texas and she almost went to law school, but instead she started posting some of the songs that she was writing. And really quickly they caught traction online because they're so, I don't know, just naturally relatable. And she just has something about her voice. And so it worked and she made a song called the sick and it blew up online. And that was literally in 2025. So a year ago, I didn't realize the sick was only 2025. Yeah. It's almost a year. It's like three days over, but we've got to tell the truth here. And that happened and then signed to Atlantic and the rest is kind of history. She's been releasing music since then and released a song called I love it. I love it. I love it. Which we worked on together and now is taking the world by storm. Just released her debut album. I reckless abandon. And yeah, everyone loves Bella K. That was really well done. I don't know that much about you. No, I'm kidding. Say what the vibes, just what you feel. This is Alexa. This is Kesselman. Can we hear claps for you? The very talented songwriter, producer, everything you could ever imagine. Big sister to me. She is from Florida. Sick. And she grew up, you know, went to high school and did all that kind of stuff. And she also almost went to law school. Fun fact, a fact that we share. Wait, really? Yeah. Yeah. I took practice LSAT. Kind of creepy. She was more serious than I was. What was this law thing? We'll get to it later. Keep introducing. Keep introducing. She has a couple of hits under her belt. Thank you. Like? Like. Glimpse of Us. Glimpse of Us. Joji. Joji. One of the best songs of the last decade. Yeah. I just have to say that. Keep going. Keep going. She did the soundtrack for Smile 2, which is fired. It's the one with the pop star. So it's like extra rad soundtrack wise. Can I? I didn't know that. Yeah. That's crazy. I'm so sorry. I didn't know that. That's really cool. No. Thank you. Thank you. And then she's worked with a bunch of awesome people, not including me, but she did make I Love It, I Love It, I Love It with me, which is awesome and amazing. And yeah, that's kind of up to date. That's amazing. Alexa! Okay, wait. So tell me about how you're telling me about your first session. So our first session, we had two sessions in the books, one with another writer and then one just us two. And the first session, we made a cool song. And I honestly left that day being like, that was cool. Like, I liked Bella, definitely. And I was excited for the next day. I thought the song was cool, but like, liked our vibe. But we hadn't really like tapped into it fully. And then our one-on-one, I think, is when it was like just the two of us, just girls. We made this really vulnerable song about body image called Body that is so good that Bella doesn't like anymore. But it's okay. I'm obsessed with it. But I think that's when we realized, oh, there's something special here. Like, we can be so vulnerable with each other and like tap into something really real. Cool. Yeah. So what random sessions had you done? Because obviously, correct me if I'm wrong, so you started posting music from your room. Had you done like the random session speed dating before that? I had done a couple before I met Alexis. But Alexis was honestly probably only like my like seventh session ever. Okay. So I was still like, what's a double? I didn't know what things were. I was like, what's a harmony? Oh, like what's like, what do you mean double the vocal? Yeah. Like, how do you double? I was like, do another one now. And she's like, another one? And I'm like, why? Can't you just put it back again? Like copy paste it? She's like, I don't remember what I did. I was like, well, we're going to have to work on that. Shut up. I would like to do something and she'd be like, do it again. And I'd be like, I can't. You're like, why? She's like, I'm not going to do it. Why would I do that? You have to. Wow. So your seventh session. Yeah. You meet your favorite collaborator. Yeah. My dog. That's pretty awesome. Yeah. That was crazy. And like, at the time I was like, I had had like a lot of sessions and they're all like good. And then I kind of like had our session and I was still like, okay, cool. And then like our second session, I was like, whoa, I was like, this feels like a different like kind of energy. And I think it's always really cool when you kind of like feel that click with somebody and you know, they feel it too. And you're like, wait, is there like vibe here? You're like, wait, it was just awesome. I don't know. It's cool to feel that. What was there like something specific that you can remember? Cause luckily lots of people come to our podcast to like learn. And so it always, it always is like, I think it's some people don't sometimes they think, Oh, I just had the most fun with that person, which can be the result of a good collaborator, but not always. There's got to be something a little bit deeper than just a good time. Do you remember what it was that made you go? I should probably do this again and again and again. I think at least for me with that second session, I had felt really heard and seen. And I think just as we had continued to collaborate together and do more sessions, I was like, okay, like, I think honestly the fun came more as we spent more time together. And like the first thing that it really was, was I was just like, okay, she really gets me like on a songwriting level and like musically, like she knows the kind of things that I want to like do without me even really having to say it. It was kind of like, we were just like finishing each other's sentences. And I would just be like, Oh, can we do this kind of song? And like, she would like come up with a beat and it would be like, exactly what I wanted. And I'd be like, okay, awesome. What did you see in the early, well, I guess it was in the second session. What, what for you made you go? I want to go in as deep as I can on this project. I think Bella's perspective. Was so refreshing. Everyone wants to be super vulnerable. And I think people either pick like this amazing confidence and like, you know, I know who I am and all this stuff, or like this vulnerability of like, I've been hurt and I've been broken. I think Bella had this amazing mix of confidence and hurt that I was like, whoa, this is a human being. Like, I feel like I, from her writing and talking to her, she's so open. She's so confident. And then also has as every human does like insecurities and things. And from the writing, I was like so blown away by someone who so young and are her seventh, eighth session was saying things and like, you know, had a perspective of life that I was like, oh, there's something so untapped here that we can like really develop. How did it feel going from like writing songs in your room to like being thrown in the session thing? I got started doing a bunch of sessions when I was like, 33 i was an old person what you being so brilliant and so young and going from like making music alone to all of a sudden you're like making music with strangers how did that go at first it was like oh my gosh like i it was like the coolest thing to me and it still is but i was like oh my gosh i love this but i think it was kind of weird like going from being in my room and like i can like make mistakes on my own and like i'm not gonna judge myself because whatever if it's bad no one else to know whatever and it's like it's being very quick and like on my own figuring that out to being in a room where like i'm speaking to someone else and i'm like um is that a good idea or i don't really know it's just like sometimes it feels weird and sometimes it's like you don't feel heard and seen and you're kind of like or like they say an idea and i remember when i was really starting i didn't really know how to like fight for what i wanted and i was kind of be like oh like if you think that's good we can put it in the song and it's like that doesn't make sense because we're like making my songs so it's like sure yeah and then i would come out with all these songs that i was like these i don't like these because they're not i didn't really have that much input yeah yeah and then i think that was kind of the difference when i started working with alexis and things is i felt really like we would like really agree and like if we did like bicker and banter i always could see her side and it wasn't like she was ever trying to make it her song or like anything like that and so yeah just trying to how do you find the balance as a producer and co-writer of like i want her to believe in this but trying to still make the song the best song it can be i mean i think it's just like a very interesting balance and thing that you have to work on with each artist but with bella she had such a unique perspective and she had something that was so specifically her that i was finding and so yeah there were moments where i was like oh maybe this verse should be you know maybe normally i would want a melody to walk up here or like i'd want the rhyme to be a little bit more on point and then i'd realize that those instincts were kind of the the pop songwriter recession instinct rather than okay here's an artist who really wants to say this thing yeah if she really wants this and this is how it feels good to her then i should let that happen and i think yeah like there are moments where i would push and she would push and we would kind of like find the middle ground i think even in harmonies too like you would i would suggest something and then you would kind of do your own thing on it and i'd be like no i said i did this and you're like no it's this and i was like wait but that's actually cool and why am i pushing the standard normal harmony yeah and i think you even hear that and i love it like there's moments where like some of the harmonies go on a little longer than others but i actually think that that's cool like i think it added a texture well and because so much of the instrumental production on i love it i love it i love it is so minimal intentionally that the the harmonies are what really grow the song totally how do you this is jumping way ahead in morgan's amazing questions but we're talking about it so i'm going to jump when you're let's just talk about i'd love it in this moment like it is so stripped down for such a massive song were there ever instincts for both of you obviously you're producing it but you guys produce it together with it were there instincts to flesh it out and make it bigger production wise or walk me through the your production process because a lot of the productions are pretty minimal and that's a compliment yeah i mean i think with i love it bella bra a verse chorus in and it was so strong it was like oh my god this is amazing so we finished writing the second verse and the bridge together and then in figuring out the production a lot of the stuff that bella had out already was super guitar vocal minimal stripped yeah so is that how you start writing do you write on guitar okay yeah because i because so much of it is guitar vocal i assumed and then i was geeking out and watching live videos this morning and you're just singing your ass off so i was like oh maybe she doesn't write on guitar but it makes sense that you do well not with every song okay but with i love it yes and with all the songs at that point in time they all started that way but yeah yeah and so we you know we laid down a vocal guitar and then bella like all her influences were a little bit more fleshed out and so it was an interesting balance where bella's like i want to be more pop and i want to explore more production but i knew that as a producer coming in and the next release potentially being the song i don't want to take a left turn and like over produce this song and her fans be like what is this so i think it was it was an interesting balance where yeah i mean the only you know the extra things are like trillion bass and uh like very tucked drums and then we had some fun on the bridge but like didn't want to overdo it i think the fun that i had was in the layering of the guitars so it like starts super center and then the chorus the guitar is like completely just pan left and right and i liked that that was like such a big change that you feel but not that much happens except panning yeah i mean it it is everything in that song feels so intentional which is why i wanted to ask about it because it's i love a song that feels that minimal but obviously you guys put a lot of work into could be so massive and we try you know we tried i think we tried some bigger drums and it just felt weird um we i mean there's obviously like some electric guitar in there there's there's layers for sure but yeah like you said everything was very intentional and i think a lot of the the song has a lot of moments where you can um make something feel bigger and so that was i remember there's like a point in the second verse where the the bass comes in right before she says earn it first you gotta bass earn it and there was like something cool about like the painting of the production and the music rather than just like section wise it was like what if the bass like says something with you that was something that was really fun to discover yeah it's really smart and really beautiful how does it feel because the lyric if i may be frank is quite fucked up um say more okay how does it feel um having a song with a gajillion streams um that is exposing a pretty um fucked up point of view now i've written many a fucked up point of view so that's not judgment that's i'm applauding you no i know but i don't sing the song anymore it's not about my life so wondering how that how does that feel i mean i just don't care great answer like i like i care but it's like i don't know i if i come up with like a bar like that i'm like okay i'm like come on gotta say it i remember when i like came up with that i was driving and i was like because i just like will think a lot and like i will i was thinking while i was driving and i was just like oh i like being used means i have a purpose and i was like say the bar a little clearer for in case if you're watching this and don't know the song just in case i like being used it means i have a purpose and i was like because i was like just thinking about my life and then i was like because i was just thinking about my life yeah my life and then i was like driving that like there's a red light and i'm like okay write that down write that down and then later that like week or that night i was in my room and i like had written the chorus and i just was like it kind of really rolled off the tongue and i was like oh like remember that like thing i wrote that was that i like being used and i was like let me put that at the front and so yeah but i just never really like think about it that hard because i'm like if i feel it somebody else feels it and that's all the matter that's the thing is like bella so can be so confidently unconfident in a way that's like i don't know i don't know in a really sick way like in a way that's like i felt this so obviously other people have felt it and that's sick and therefore i'm gonna sing it as the first line to a song yeah i think that's so cool yeah how does it this is like this question's for for for both of you as a song starts to grow whether it's i love it because we're talking about it or it's this sick or glimpse of us or when all of a sudden you as a songwriter or artist or producer or whatever you want to call it you're like okay i'm gonna sing it as the first line to a song yeah i think that's to call ourselves when all of a sudden your work is starting to be perceived by people and whether that's loved whether that's hated whether that's whatever but all of a sudden we all have been making music for a long time before the world hears it yeah once people are starting to perceive you whether that's the industry whether that's the internet how has that changed the way that you think about music has it not or do you have to get it out of your head how do you process all of a sudden being perceived when all this we were making music our whole lives without it I think it's weird it's like a really like I remember because like also the sick was like my first song that ever came out and it was the one that people were like talking about so that was like something and I didn't know how to handle it I was like okay like the only people that have ever heard my songs are like my parents like I was like this is like weird and so like so many people like we're talking about it and I was just like this is like insane and I like can't like delete it or pretend it's not happening like whatever if it was something bad and if even if it's something good it's like because at first you're like oh my god like everybody's talking about everybody loves it and then like the more people that know about it it's like okay like there's gonna be people who don't like it and that like was something that I just had to like learn and deal with but I had a good conversation with one of my friends a couple months ago and she was like people not liking it is like such a good thing because she was like okay like if a hundred people hear it and like there's probably two people that don't like it and you're not going to know and she's like but if like a million people hear it then that two percent whatever is going to get bigger and you will hear the voices whatever but it just means that more people are hearing you and more people are loving you she was like the more people that hate you the more people love you right and I was like that is you're so wise for your age yeah I was like okay so that's what I try to hold on to yeah in that in that early moment though um how do you get through it I think I've gotten a lot better at dealing with it now now most of the times it's funny like I think sometimes like I've seen people be like I hate I love it I hate it I hate it I hate it and I'm like this is like just funny to me because it's like it doesn't really matter and it doesn't like change how I see it because I think the most important thing for me was every song I put out I want to be able to like fully back and fully be like this is my song I love it so much like I can't imagine not having put it out and that is all that matters to me because if somebody's like oh I hate this song I hate that whatever it doesn't matter because I love it yeah I think it was different when like I was putting out songs that I maybe like didn't feel like 100 confident in and people would be like I don't really like and I'm like yeah you're right it's not good and then that makes me feel bad but if I'm like I don't really like it I'm like I think it's good then I'm like well that's just your opinion I I can very very much relate to that yeah if if when I have a song come out and if there's negativity if I don't like the song either it's really hard yeah and I'm like yeah I know I tried to fucking write a bridge and they wouldn't let me or there was a bridge and I got to lead it don't yell at me the song's two minutes long I didn't so I don't approve the final oh my god that's when it's it is I and I think that for you to be so young and already know how to stand by that I want to hear your answer first but I need to ask follow up on this what how when you were releasing songs that you didn't stand behind how did that happen it wasn't like it and like I stood behind them a little but I wasn't like this is my favorite song ever now every time I put out a song it has to be my favorite song at least like up to date but I was just like it was just because I was kind of like I don't know I didn't these were songs that I had like not that this was before these these were the songs that I hadn't like written with other people yet and I was kind of like so I didn't really know how to like write songs so it was kind of just like whatever I like had come up with in my past years that I didn't like because I actually I loved the songs when I first wrote them and first put them down and first got them recorded and then I started doing sessions and I was like oh this is like way better in my opinion I think Bella grows at a speed like unknown to mankind because like we'll write a song and then the next day she's like this was my favorite song and then the next day she hates that song and then the next day it's going on the album but we're changing something but it's a speed that is so crazy I think what happened with the first few songs is those came out really quickly so I don't think you really had time to even process whether you liked them or not it was like here's songs that I'm putting out that I wrote two weeks ago right and your whole career has been very quick and but you also are really smart and so you you learn very quickly and I think that's what's cool is I remember like we would go over like song structure and things where it's like okay what if the chorus has a lift and then you would go back and be like oh well now these songs don't have that lift so now I don't like them as much but it's not that they you just are growing yeah and I still look back on those songs fondly and I appreciate them for what they were yeah but when I I'm glad that you're being polite to your songs in case they hear my babies at one point in case they see the podcast yeah yeah how did you start how did you handle your your music starting to be heard perceived and heard I mean I think that for me the first song that was really perceived was glimpse of us and I felt very lucky that it was people really loved it and found I mean they were so torn apart by these lyrics and I think that was really interesting is when I write a song that day can be very emotional um that output can feel very emotional but then I'll write it and I'll feel amazing because I let that out it's like a therapy session for me and so then for people to react and be like I listen to this song and I cry or this is the song that makes me so sad it's like I don't associate that song with my sadness anymore because I let that sadness out yeah so I think it's in the same way where Bella will talk about I love it and people be like that's the saddest song ever and she's like what do you mean that's a happy song oh I think it's fierce as fuck right yeah and I think that it's like because it's that self-awareness makes you so it might be a little dark but I know what I'm doing I'm in control of this yeah yeah there's a release that happens when you make something like you have an emotional release and so yeah as far as perception I don't know people are always gonna like and dislike certain things sometimes you write the song that you think people are gonna be obsessed with and no one hears it and then sometimes it's like that was a random one-off session and that's the song that does really well so I I listen a little bit but I don't take the outside perspective and let it truly influence what I'm writing yeah we've talked privately about how you will walk into a lot of sessions and like when you pull your computer out or start playing an instrument people like what are you doing you're a woman you should only be writing you shouldn't be producing um and it shouldn't have surprised me when you told me that story because our business is trash um but it did surprise me because at least in my circle we all know you as a producer as well as a songwriter how did it feel to find a collaborator who really sees you as a producer yeah I mean I think it has been so amazing to work with Bella because there's never been a question of like where our line ends and begins it's like what's good for the song yeah and so you know I I as I've come up in this industry I think it's just like less normal so you know I was working at different studios where I wasn't at the desk and people knew me for one ballad that I co-wrote and so it was a it was a journey to prove myself as a producer and then with the extra level of like I am a woman and so people are just not as used to me pulling out my computer and being like can I send you a synth that would work really well and I'm also a songwriter I don't want to say first but I I grew up writing songs that was my thing and then producing was born from that so it's very difficult in the room for me to turn off being a songwriter and I just feel like the song comes first whatever that means so if the production is really important that day then I'm focusing on the production but like if we need to figure out this chorus I'm my producer brain is off and I'm working on the chorus and I'm figuring out lyrics and so yeah I think with Bella I just felt very valued on both sides and there were also moments where she wrote an amazing song and I was like oh my god I'm so excited to be able to do this amazing chorus and so I was producer that day and um or she's writing the verse herself and I may suggest a line or two and she goes okay maybe and then I'm like okay I'll just work on the synthesizer today um and then she pulls out an amazing verse and I'm like okay cool yeah maybe my word is in there but um no it depended on the song but yeah I just felt really valued in the room with Bella and it wasn't a matter of like oh you're it was just it just was we're making this together yeah how do you know when to be like I don't care what the math says or what traditional song structure says this is fucking right for me how do you know when to put your foot down I think this has definitely been a journey for me I think at first I just genuinely didn't know it was right and so I was like this is what I did and sometimes Alexis would be like what she's like it's the same melody the entire time we did a different note and I feel like recently I've kind of gotten tried to unlearn the things that I've learned in the past couple months because now I'm very like verse pre-chorus and then verse pre-chorus bridge outro like that is what it is and I'm trying to kind of like relearn the things that I didn't know and then kind of like mix it all together because I think it's important to like have structure and know the things so you can know when to break the rules yeah you got to know the rules so you can break them yeah but yeah it's been a journey of learning and figuring out how I want to be as a writer yeah that how do you as producer co-writer how do you nurture and make sure that like she's staying true to herself as she learns everything I think she has such a strong like gut and she knows when she likes or doesn't like something and so and and I think that's why we work well because we both have those instincts and a lot of times we agree when there's a shift or when we should do something that's like a little bit more the normal structure but I think not in her learning all these things I also don't want her to like lose the magic of what she does and why people love you yeah yeah and so that is what's interesting in you know when she brings something in there's something really naturally Bella about it and my job is to work around that and say like maybe we should do this thing but then to almost question my own instinct a little bit and be like oh but maybe it's actually cooler if we don't do this thing and finding the balance between all of that I find that every day yeah I I'm almost always the oldest person in the room and I have like a geeky degree in songwriting all these things that I love but also know that some of my best songs are because there was a co-writer who was much younger much more emotional than me and didn't know these rules yeah and they just like plowed through and I like quickly as I I could in this very fast process and I have to remind myself all the time of like let if especially if the artist is a proper fucking writer let it happen and then like clean it up wherever I possibly can but it is it is these like this especially if you can geek out about structure and all that stuff it gets so fun but sometimes you have to realize that's not always the right choice for the artist and when Bella like I remember on our fourth or fifth session like when we started to really value our relationship Bella was saying things to me like I feel like with you you know I'm leaving with a song that feels like mine and so then I went back to myself and be like okay what am I doing that's letting her feel like that and how do I make sure to continue to let her feel like that and not you know start to even as we get more honest with each other still like be honest but also allow her to have the space to like feel like she's leaving with Bella K. songs yeah hello my little unfamous friends so um the thing about the algorithm Little Miss algorithm is that she um doesn't want to let people know about our podcast unless she thinks that people love it so if you follow this podcast what do the old school youtubers say like subscribe and follow um if you do that for me then you will help the unfamous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people so please do me just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things bye was there a song that you guys did together that one of you had to convince the other one it was worthy to see the light of day oh yes we're always fighting about we fight a lot I would say Blur is the first one that comes to mind Blur is crazy we started that I think it was like what was it like an R&B pop song yeah it was crazy it was like a splice sample it's like now a rock song um but we started it as a sample and I was teaching Bella about like melody passes because oh yeah for anyone listening who doesn't know it explain a melody pass a melody pass is basically when you have a beat or something down and you and instead of coming up with the melody before and then recording it you hop on the mic and you sing passes or sing versions of melodies and then you afterwards go and edit that and find what may be the melody through those like experimentations freestyles freestyles that's much better than what I said um we're we're just helping each other on the podcast um so I yeah I had Bella hop on the mic and just try to do it and I was like oh yeah I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it some things and I don't I don't remember exactly what it was that felt exciting but we found something in there yeah and then I took out the electric guitar and yeah we left that day I think we had like I remember we made another song that day but that day we had the chorus and I think we only had the first half we had the first verse in the chorus and I went home and I literally listened to it a thousand times and I just was like wait you did yeah the first the first pass that you sent me and then I was like okay like we have to finish this because it's gonna be my favorite I know I don't think that's true no it's true and then because I remember I remember being in my hotel room and being like no but that might have been after because okay I think the first day we made it we're fighting it's happening I think the first day we made it you we hadn't found the word blur sure and then sure babe and then you left and I remember I think like figuring out something and then the next day you came in okay okay maybe I'm thinking about the second you're thinking about the second day because you came in and I was like wait I think this thing is cool like I actually think there's something here and then you hated it and then I hated it at first she had to convince me and then I had to convince her then we finished blur and it's awesome but I don't know it just like to me was whatever and then Bella's like this is my favorite song in the album and okay wait so how do you get through this how do you get through these disagreements and still be great collaborators and friends and not a real fight oh it's just because you're always real fights are they real fights no um I was like oh people can learn from that we're here to expose the truth no we just like take a second because I think we're both very fast in our decision making and so like Bella will text me I like this or I don't like this and I'll text back something but then like I don't know in a few days we'll probably agree like I think we always end up agreeing with each other it just takes us a second and we take a moment to understand why the other person feels that way and usually we're like driving around LA and like listening to the songs in my car and you know I was like I told you this is I'm like wait this is good she's like I told you we've had that conversation 10 times are you the type of artist who the most like you're the type of artist who is the most recent song is always your favorite song no my god oh really no no no oh good for you I think like sometimes I always like have one I always have like three that I'm like this is my like this is my favorite and then like when I think in the process of finishing the album it was really like okay what are the moments on the beats we're missing on the album and like whatever da da da and so I was trying to kind of like fill these holes that I felt were there and it would those were kind of the hardest songs to make because I'd be like okay this is what I want but it's not what I want right and so like it sounds like what I want but it doesn't feel like what should be there yeah and then I would like finally find a song that would fit that spot and then I would listen to it 100 times but it wouldn't it still wouldn't be my favorite song but I'd be like I really love this song but that's that's very impressive that at this very young age you can have that bird's eye view most are and some of the greatest artists of all time this is not a cut the last song they wrote is managers in the room I know you can can can back me up on this but I'm the last song that artist writes very often is their favorite song and we all have to just go let's just wait a month because this song is not good then they will stop being obsessed so the fact that you can already have that bird's eye view is very impressive yeah and makes your job a lot easier yeah I think Bella would find would have favorites from like the beginning and then other really exciting moments were when she would pull out a song that she had said like I don't like this song we were like okay let's put this away and then she would come back to it and I think stop is like the best example of that song we had made it um in my childhood home in Florida and again over like this really random loop that is not even in the song but you know it was so fun to make and it was not the sound of the album at all but again like your influences like we wanted to try to hit the Ariana thing and like are you in what is Ariana Nader is that what yeah I'm just like a big pop girl I love anything pop and especially when I was younger I would listen to like Dangerous Woman album was my thing sweetener like I just loved it all but yeah I always love hanging out with young people which is every day of my life that's what I do for a living and you mentioned like oh Dangerous Woman when I was young when I was a child when I was born was a tiny baby child and I'm like oh yeah I was like in my mid-30s Morgan I don't know if you heard this I think you were peeing Morgan is a Bella K super fan wait oh my god I love your music yeah that's amazing one of the when the algorithm did the right thing Spotify like suggested to Morgan like nine months ago like I think you would love Bella K yeah and I thought it was wrong at first but then listening weird like the initial like sounds that I heard I was like this isn't what I typically would immediately gravitate to but I think through your songwriting you display like a really high level of emotional intelligence and you're like really raw in the feeling but can like zoom out and then articulate the tension between like what's happening what you feel and like there's something with the like wanting something or someone so badly but then also kind of leaning into like the self-sabotage of whether it's good or bad for you and articulating it in a way where like so many people can relate to it and be like that's not what I thought I was feeling but you've said it in such a way that like there's like some sort of reprieve as a listener listening to it yeah um yeah with stop Morgan you said um oh you just want to know what came first how that song started what was the the main inspiration of that song great cue you want to tell it no no you please okay um basically we were writing a lot about a certain feeling and it was what feeling a feeling of of a crush feeling of liking and so apologies apologies for having feelings about especially about liking somebody yeah corny corny it's the worst whenever it happens to me I'm like god way too evolved for this I can't believe my brain can still do this so yeah and so that was I was trying to get us to write not about this I was like we really need to move on but that wasn't happening and so so basically I I mean I think you were writing you were like freestyling I was working the beat a little you were signing some verses that were like what you were feeling and then I was like what if the chorus is like I should stop feeling this this is this is I should stop talking about this this is I'm being annoying um she was annoying a little bit um all right but anyways um I was like what have you stopped and then I think that was kind of the impetus of like wait that's kind of funny that you know I'm like my friends what's the line tell it to my friends they're so sick of my shit yeah yeah that was kind of the vibes for stop I love how real that is of like I have to stop writing about this but you don't want to say that things I've stopped talking about yeah it's the same thing what happened with the crush is it shenanigans shenanigans that's what I've learned no nothing nothing not worth I deserve better I mean that's the thing about it is we always do but then we just keep fucking writing songs yeah and then it's like you deserve better but then also if you got better we wouldn't have the songs exactly and we need that I know so I kind of gotta like stay yeah it is it I always find it like when I was a super fan when I was young and I really only ever care about women writing songs I think men singing sure is so cringe like this isn't for you you have everything else please leave songs to us and always when I was young like the the older that these women I was obsessed with would get I just couldn't relate and I now oh it's because they were like finding peace they were like in a happy relationship they were like starting families and evolving and I was still 17 and being like no why aren't you upset yeah what's going on I need to hear songs only about you how you want to kill everyone you've ever met Morgan are there any other songs our little our little super fan over there Morgan any other songs you want to know details about oh I just love your new girlfriend I thought that was such like a cunt I just thought that was such a fierce cunty little song and like listening to it I was like okay she's not jealous of the new girl for dating the ex she's actually jealous of the ex because that new one is the type and actually I'm gonna fuck your new girlfriend like that was so fierce when I heard that I was like oh my god so Bella tell us the story I feel like it should be known like and obviously now I am even worse about this but when I was first like had the opportunity to put out songs I was like I'm going to be a demon I was like what are like the worst things I can say and like get away with and I like I would never had dated this guy and he like had a new girlfriend and I was like I was like oh my gosh she's so pretty but I wasn't even like oh like oh she's so pretty I'm so angry and jealous whatever I just was like I bet she would date me if I asked all I have to do is ask all I have to do is um but yeah I mean that one I wrote all by myself I was just like in my room I I still actually that is one of my the songs from my early days that I still think is pretty fun fun vibe but yeah I just kind of was writing about something that happened to me and it came out what when you're writing about such personal things and that involve other people in your life yeah do you have like a a threshold of like okay this is getting too personal and it involves other people or is everything on the table I would like to say everything's on the table in terms of like if I was because I think if I was dating somebody and then like everybody knew I was dating them that is like something that I think actually I would feel a little weird about yeah but that hasn't happened yet so we're good until they really you over until we break up then everything's on the table what was on the album what was the for any any production geeks listening for you guys what was the most like the hardest song to do or the most fun song just any sort of like production geekiness that we can get into really quick before we move on you said you know it's gotta be karaoke oh yeah karaoke was a mess it was and I think it still came out a mess but I love it you went on live yesterday and played I was on the plane for five hours things came up the wi-fi was good enough on the plane to catch a live Delta wi-fi yeah um we did a different verse well okay so something we would like for chords I would sometimes try to push Bella into like some different chord lanes and then I realized like there is something that Bella does really amazing which is write amazing songs over not too many chords and I didn't want to like push on that because Stevie Nicks most of those life-changing songs two chords exactly and like it just felt like I know that Bella liked when it was certain things and so I wanted to honor that but my thought was like okay what's another thing we can change that's kind of fun and in karaoke we slow down tempo I was like what maybe that would be a cool thing yes yes yes so it's like trying to be a little experimental so we come up with this verse and then the course slows down and the day we made it I think we thought it was really sick this is the coolest thing I've ever made and it was it was cool it was and then the verses we just could never connect with I think the production of them I don't know or the writing I think it was just like they were like it didn't feel I didn't feel hooked yeah it wasn't like that every time I was waiting for it to get to the chorus and like sometimes that's fun but I don't know I like the whole song would be good yeah and so then sometimes it's fun to be bored of the verses but normally I love it when the whole song is good what if we made these verses good um and so then we did was that the second try no we rewrote those verses yeah then we were in New York trying to fix it and we just started it was funny we had the song cool yeah which was the verse of karaoke and it was like yeah yeah we had I don't I actually still love that version too but we had this song and it was like the first verse was amazing and then the rest of it was bad and I was like okay well what if we take that amazing verse and put it with this amazing course that we have and then that's basically see that is why it is so beautiful to like lock arms with a main collaborator because right if you're writing with people it can get really tricky to be like let's take this part of this you can do it and then the business part just gets crazy but it is that is another great example of why it's awesome to find a main collaborator of course guest stars always and whatever to keep things fresh and exciting but like if you guys weren't locked in like that you wouldn't have been able to piece that together sure yeah you would have to just give up on the song and we had so many like moments in sessions where we would be like in the middle of working on one song and Bella would be like close this we're done with this one we're opening something else and I mean okay we're like we're going on an adventure and we'd like go to in and out um but that was really exciting because then you know we worked for so many days that like something that we started for 15 minutes one day she would always remember it if it was good yeah that's why she lets me do it yeah and so like we would that was really fun about locking in it's like being able to go back to a random idea we started it did it feel like with the sick blowing up and then all of a sudden there's a label and there's management and blah blah how did it or if it does happen how did it feel to all of a sudden have outside business point of view on who you are and what you should be doing I think I'm very like I think a lot of people are surprised by how much I actually do think about that part of the job and it's never like I'm putting on music I'm like okay like I want to do this to hit this mark whatever but I do try to listen to what those people are saying and kind of like understand like this is a job like it is especially because like I dropped out of college to do this I'm not necessarily doing it for the love of the game then I'm like oh but I'm actually gonna still go get that law degree whatever because then it would be more like okay I'm just gonna put out whatever songs I want but it's like I want to always put my art first but also remember this is my job and like I want to do this for as long as possible so like what do I have to do to kind of get there wow she's so like business minded in a really interesting way that it was so new for me like so you both almost were lawyers what's your problem no too hard um I think for me I just wanted to do something really well in my life like I wanted to succeed at something and when music was taking a second to click I mean my parents wanted me to do big things but I also put way more pressure on myself and so it was like when music wasn't working I was like I need to make money I need to do something big I need to like law school just feels like that thing that you dramatic that's like that dramatic thing yeah so I was taking the practice LSAT and then the pandemic hit and then I moved back home to Florida and I think I thought about getting my MBA like all these different things and then I'm really glad I didn't because I'm very glad you did that I'm glad both of you didn't become lawyers - What is your excuse for wanting to become a lawyer? - Well, okay. kind of bad but i would like everyone to know that when i made this decision i was like i was like 17 and i was i was dating this guy and he really wanted and we had been dating for like two and a half years so i was like we're gonna like get married when you're 17 two and a half years i know that's the thing you're like you're locked in yeah and i was like and he really wanted to do theater and like be an actor and like props to him but i was like okay someone's gotta hold it down this bum no no i made the joke not you you're a nice polite person i'm not i'll get the punch lines for you that's amazing so you were like okay i have to help this bum out just like i have to make money for this household but i was like okay someone's got to hold it down and so i was going and like i also like it was again like wanted to make the parents proud and i was like the music i don't know how to do the music thing when i i had it had been my dream since i was literally like six and i had always wanted to be a songwriter i didn't really want to be an artist because when i was in high school i was doing theater and i was like i can't sing i'm not a soprano and that was like genuinely my belief and so i was like can't sing and so i was like okay but i can write songs and so but i didn't know how to like because i was like okay if i do the tiktok thing that's going to be artist forward that's not like whatever and so i don't i and so i was like okay i'll go to school and i'll hold it down for the boyf and we will i'll go to law school but then we break up like right before college and i was like you're new girl that's really pretty i was like oh it's that guy wait guys guys fierce fierce fierce connecting dots um and then i was like okay well i was like okay well i want to be a musician and you're not like i don't want to hold me back but you're not i don't have to be a lawyer and that was always my choice he had no part in it like your new girlfriend might be really hot but i'm gonna be a rock star i'm gonna be a rock star um and so then i was kind of like okay well i really want to do music and i was like maybe we broke up so that i can do music like maybe that's truly my calling and what i need to do and i locked in i was like okay i'm gonna really get better at guitar this year i'm gonna learn how to do x y and z and then i was like okay and then i locked in really like in april and i was like i'm gonna post a tiktok every day for all of summer and i was like if i don't get a thousand followers by the end of the summer i quit and i got more i got a thousand how many did you get by the end of the summer it might have been 100k that i had at that point yeah and i was like i was over the moon but yeah that's my story i mean that was a very good that was that's a round of applause story that was very very good i don't care i care i i'm i'm applauding for myself um okay we asked this question of everybody who comes on what is this song and it can also be a performance or a video but what is this song that like ruined your life in the sense of like oh fuck i have to make music what is the song that when you were young went wait i like this more than yeah my friends like music but i'm like connecting to this in a way that like i think this is my life now i think love song several is for me it just changed my life great fucking song because i was a piano girl so like that to find like a pop star who had piano it's so prominently in the song and just like the harmony was so interesting and then it was like a song that had this deeper meaning but also just had such an amazing melody i don't know i'm a cerebrist stay on forever so i think that song i heard that and i was like i wish i made this i want to make songs yeah that's a that's a yes sarah brellis is such a genius and you are the first person to to mention sarah brellis as the reason why your life got ruined yeah well i love that and i love you sarah i got to do a couple songs on her album that was like in 2019 maybe came out in covid maybe came out in 20 but we wrote it in 19 that's amazing she's so talented i was really she would come in with ideas decently far along and just wanted like an extra set of ears okay yeah she's so special do you have yours since i was little i always had like a deep connection to music and i always remember like because i would my parents would go on road trips a lot so that was a lot of time for me to like have my headphones in and like listen to music and it was like i was always listening to music but i remember the specific moment where i decided i really want to do it as like a career i went and saw sabrina on the emails i can't send tour and i was like dude i was just like this is like something i want to do so bad yeah it was just like this like enigma like she's just so amazing live and she performed she like also does this thing where she like really talks about her feelings during the show and i really connected with all of those beats that she was hitting and i just felt like walking out of that show i was like dude i was like i gotta find a way to do this like this is crazy i love also god you're so fucking young i know she said that was that tour like four years ago yeah i was in high school for me wow i mean yeah that's that's the because i've had i had a lot of concerts where i've been like oh this is kind of who i i saw paula cole who another piano based pop star you know much more my era than your guys's era um but like there was moments when i was like five and i was like oh songwriting is crazy but it was a concert i saw in high school that went oh i don't think i'm a theater kid i love i will always be a theater kid as a fan but i was like oh i think i want to try to do yeah that it is live shows are so special yeah they're the right one will totally change well it'll it'll change everything okay to the end every episode we play a game called gag or drag okay gag means you love it drag means you hate it and if for whatever reason you just want to say meh and you don't really feel strong about it you can say mad but gag you love it drag you hate it gag or drag your team asking for another version of a song that worked like can you please do that one again so for you guys hey can you just do i love it i love it i love it again yeah i mean like try we are so anti that and i think when because i love it was happening like in the middle of making the album and we were like it messed us up a little bit yeah we're like should we just do it again because we were saying that we were like nobody was like do it again we just were like we were like maybe we should do it yeah i think that yeah that doesn't help it just doesn't have you you know doesn't allow for good creativity yeah gag or drag posting a thirst trap specifically hoping one person sees it oh yeah that's a gag open it up scroll again did they this time posted on my story make sure so you have proof that they thought you know who's not yeah gag or drag a collaborator changing your favorite lyric but making it objectively better i think that's a gag and that's happening multiple times really i know and sometimes it what really pisses me off is when they when they write my favorite lyric in the song i'm like okay like now i hate it but i'm like i have to keep it obviously no it's not going and then people online will come and be like i love the sun i'm like no wait wait what's shout out your collaborators what's what's the line that your fans love that you isn't yours in say it say um the one the book line read a whole book between the lines that when you first said i was like what and then i was like and i was like amazing and i've seen people like oh my god and then also in promise there's a line um you're in my heart you're in my heart you're in my heart you're in my cortisol and i was like when he said that i was like oh my god genius and then but i was so mad and then who said it alexander 23 oh yeah yeah yeah i heard that one too and i was mad i was but that show again i'm you you are a very uh smart smart young woman that is um for you to like not only see the greatness but then even fully acknowledge it with a camera on good for you i'm proud of you i'm like yeah i wrote it delete all of that that's not making it um gag or drag someone you're dating saying i'm just bad at texting oh drag drag yeah yeah yeah yeah that's not especially because i'm bad at texting but not for pookie that's what it is it's like when you like someone you text them so i'm bad at texting is only for people that you don't want to text if you don't want to text yeah yeah i mean that's that's the hard truth yeah um gag or drag your fans loving the song you almost left off the album oh gag it's a gag but it's unfortunate because it makes you a little nervous you're like maybe i don't know what i'm doing that's fair gag or drag someone saying i'm not looking for anything serious and then acting like your boyfriend or girlfriend to drag yeah that's my ideal scenario really wait this is supposed to be rapid fire but i need to know more i keep being like yeah so and you know what it never is wait why why is that your ideal i just feel like i love my dream next um situation is like a terrible like four month situationship where we're like not boyfriend and girlfriend but we're like it's like and then it ends in fire and flames that's what you want next yeah i think it'll be good for me and why as an artist as an artist thank you not as a person i mean this is your job now and you need fuel for the job exactly gag or drag uh going back to someone even though every single friend has told you not to drag i'm gonna say drag too wow uh wow you're choosing the high road gag or drag a producer deleting half the track and you can both answer this because sometimes you just write and don't produce it so the producer can do this to you too a producer deleting half the track and saying it needs less oh i mean i don't know kind of gag especially if they're right if if they're right i mean obviously if the track is really i guess there's been moments where it's drag and there's been moments where it's yeah if the track sucks i'm like yeah let's get that away get to the point it is always i love when when writers in a session are like i think yeah i think this actually better you just no drums could you just mute the um everything and you're like at some point the producer's gonna realize you just hate their drum sounds at some point if every session you tell them to delete the drums at some point they're gonna go i think i should work out my drums okay gag or drag your ex becoming hotter after you break up i think that's a drag but if i'm the ex then it's a gag right same answer yeah um gag or drag keeping the emotionally messy demo vocal because it actually feels better oh 100 gag yeah yeah yeah it's sometimes really hard with certain producers to convince them of that yeah you're right it totally is i think it like there's something really cool about the mess or the being unsure of things like if it's making you feel something that has to be yeah priority yeah maybe you change a few things around it but keep keep it gag or drag someone hard launching a relationship three weeks after you break up oh drag yeah no it's not allowed i kind of love it yeah it's kind of a gag just because it's like oh you're clearly insane that's so true good point thank goddess and you're just doing it so i see yeah like this is about me these lesbians think you're like part for the course what are you talking about oh right yeah lesbians that's every time yeah okay to wrap up this fabulous fabulous conversation what is advice that you wish you could give yourselves about collaboration that you've learned that you wish you could tell your earlier self about being a better collaborator i would say don't try to like force something that's not working and kind of like if you're like in a room and it's not working and it doesn't feel good it's not gonna like get better the more you do it you kind of like you need to like know where your people are and like where you feel comfortable and also like it's okay to be wrong yeah yeah can you give me a little more what you mean it's okay to be wrong i think sometimes this year i've gotten really good at being wrong i think i used to really like be so scared of like saying the wrong thing or being like oh no like i can't if i do this then like they'll think i'm stupid or they'll think it's like i'm not talented whatever but it's like i think it's okay to be wrong i think it's okay to be wrong i think it's okay to be wrong i think make sure you're in spaces where you always feel like accepted and they know that you are whatever you are talented regardless of if you have a stupid idea one day whatever yeah um but it's okay to be wrong because sometimes the wrong idea is fire yeah so just let yourself fail i love that yeah i think mine is very similar it's like the trusting of your gut and doing that publicly can be very hard when you're trying you're meeting new people and you're trying to seem cool and trying to like fit in or do what's best for the room but i think like the thing that you did at you know 11 p.m in your bedroom when you were 16 like how do you harness that at 2 p.m on a wednesday in a professional studio is something that takes practice but it's feeling really comfortable because that's the stuff that's the reason you're in the room and i just remember going to like meetings with a and r's and playing songs and it was always like the thing that i did in my room alone that was cooler to them than like the session song where i felt like i was trying to make the perfect session song and so like harnessing that figuring out what that is and then allowing yourself to do that in front of collaborators you feel comfortable with that i don't think i've ever heard anyone put it that clearly that can you we can obviously just watch the footage but i need to hear that again the thing that you did by yourself alone in your room at 16. what did you say after that how do you harness that at 2 p.m on a wednesday in a professional studio that is really so real she got bars bars that is so real i'm gonna do that in my session today you should yeah i mean that's what i mean i was really annoying at 16 though i was like i thought i would bring it i thought i was like bernadette peters meets tori amos it was a lot amazing she was my first concert no way my mom's huge tori amos fan well how was your mom we don't she doesn't wouldn't want i was guessing her and i would be the same age i see because tori amos was my second concert yeah yeah yeah beautiful wow i love that that was really amazing both of you are so so smart i mean we've hung out before so i know she's smart you at 20 years old being this smart is i'm i'm nervous for anybody else who isn't that smart that's amazing i agree bella and alexis everybody watch unfamous on spotify subscribe for no ads i'll see you there