Believing in your wine w/ Luisa Amorim, Mirabilis

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The podcast that navigates the business of wine with unique perspectives and insights with your host Robert Vernick and Peter Young. Welcome to this episode of X-Shatow. Today we're going to look at building a new wine category. In this case, Duro White Wines. Or Duro White Wines. If that's better, my pronunciation of Portuguese will not be great. But today we have Luisa Emmerin, CEO of Emmerin Family Estates. Luisa, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for the invitation. Thank you. Could you give us a brief overview of your background? Well, my academic background starts in hospitality. Then I moved to marketing and also I did some business where I started in the family business when I was around 22 years old. Then I started mailing tourism. Then I had the opportunity to do an enormous program for almost three years around the world, knowing many companies around the Ammerin companies around the world. Of course, knowing many wineries and vintners and winemakers, which I profoundly, well, I think touch me. It was something key, I think, for what I am today. And so traveling, of course. This is mainly my background. I didn't do any winemaking course. What I did for the winemaking is from all more than 20 years, almost 30 years, tasting and tasting and tasting and talking all the time, reading a lot and while traveling, because I believe when you travel and you relate, when you do and imbue relationships with so many different people, not only in restaurants when you are tasting, of course, and of course, when you know many clients and of course win producers, well, you have changed ideas, you have changed panoramas and arrears. And I think, well, you never stop, especially in the wine industry, so you never stop learning, you never stop thinking and you never stop thinking the future and thinking how to do better and a better wine every day. So that travel around the world, that was with Ammerin? Yes, it was with Ammerin and of course, personally, with my family, I start to travel, seems I'm little, because it's very common for in my family, even for my father-generation, we always was traveling around the world. We were always, you know, three times per year, so we were always traveling even. You know, Portugal is a very, very small country in the south of Europe, I think this makes a huge difference for me because I had the opportunity to see all the continents and to understand so many different types of cultures. And this was a big, I think, academic you may say, but not theoretical, but in practice. So I think it was very good for me and my sisters, of course. And so did you work for an extended period of times in different part of the world? No, I did more like training programs, so I did like training programs, but what I worked, it was always in Portugal. Got it, got it. And so we're going to focus on the Duro White wines, which includes your Mirabilis brand, but what's the total scope of the wine operations or the total operations of Ammerin? Okay, so I developed my work now in three wine visions in Portugal. We start by Doro Valley with Quim de Novo, and not just in Odo Carmo. It is how I say, well, my, not my first program, but probably my second program because when we had the opportunities to start with Quim de Novo, we also started the Port Wine business. So it was really my first school because I had the privilege to understand the tradition, the, well, the very old grapes that we have in the region, well, the culture of Port Wine and the culture of wine, and the symbology, what it is, and what could be a maintenance, and of course, the future of the centenary wines. This was very important for me. And then in 2018, we had also the chance to acquire Novo estate in Daum, which is a kind of neighbor or of Doro Valley, and it's a wonderful region. It's mainly Grindic soils, high altitude, and it's full of mountains. So we are talking about five mountains, and there you cannot speak about Terroir, because it doesn't exist in Terroir. There's a lot of micro Terroir's, and of course it's still very interesting because we still do try farming on that property. And also we have a Lentagium and Cerro Domendrum, which is a private property that I have every day, for my father, where we also have a better mars, so a mountain of the particular tour, and where we do a very, very tiny project. So what I believe, and as a Portuguese, in all of them, it's part of the role just to work with the national grapes, so native grapes. And I say national in native, because some of them, of course, they are just native from each region. You have more than, I think everybody knows that, but we have more than 150 grape varieties in Portugal, and in Doro we have more than 130. So I think this is a good program to start with, and that's why Portuguese and majority of the Portuguese wines are blended wines. So for us, it's a little bit part of our DNA, so we are used to make wine with different grape varieties, and not so much to do wine with just one grape. So we always believe that if we use more than one grape, and even sometimes we have that blending directly in the vineyard, of course, in the system of two blends, we believe that we can get more balanced wine with more than one grape, which is important because we are just working the "Viticle Tour" mountain. I call what I probably have learned a system in Doro Valley, which is the system where I baptize, or I call it like a mosaic. So, but it's not a mosaic. Of course, it is also an ecological mosaic, but it's a vehicle sure mosaic. So in all of them, because every time sometimes it's difficult, or it was very difficult to sell Portuguese wines 20 years ago. So maybe because of my background and because I travel so much, for me it was a natural process to add to the wine production also the wine tourism. So since ever, we are doing both together, which I really believe is a great opportunity for many people to know the regions, the culture, the food, the people. I always say, and this is clearly important, each property has one winery and each one making team. So everything is different. So we try in our program to adapt, no, we just express not only the traditions of that region, but especially what is the concept of that property itself. And of course, with the local wine making it possible, local grapes and local everything, I may say. So you have wineries across Portugal, but you use a lot of native great varieties, you also do hospitality at all of them, is the business just wineries, or is it the same as the court company? No, it's a different business. So we have separate business. So we have a team for the court business, and we have another totally different team for the wine business. It could not be possible to have the same team because the proposals of each business are totally different. But are they related? Is it the same family? Yes, they are. The same family. So the name is similar and most people probably know the name from the court business, but okay, they've got it. There are different divisions within that bigger business and bigger family. So focusing a little on mirror billis, which is a kind of a rare still white line from the Duro Valley. Thank you. Why did you decide to pursue this project? Well, we start to produce white lines from the very beginning. Really, I think from the year maybe here 2000, in the time that Portuguese didn't have too many white wines, and especially the concept was people majority, I remember in Duro Valley that time, people have like a kind of round reserve or reserve wine and a regular wine, you may say that. So we call it that time, "queleta still wine". And for me, I was very impressed at why not to have also a white wine because we always had white grapes, especially with high altitude in Duro Valley. And as many people may understand for they were produced and used it for the white port. And sometimes, probably, what is a portonic, which is a wonderful beverage as well. So people thought, you know, I don't know why, but white grapes were, well, they were not so good. And well, they were probably not the, for them in that time, the people were more focused in the red grapes. And we start from the 2000 to make a first wine without oak, so a no-cut wine. A no-cut wine just to make a regard here. It's not a wine without quality for us. We use high quality of grapes because we don't have entry level, high quality of grapes, but we decide to do, for example in the rates, remissoration and a long experimentation process, but we decide to do it, not use oak in order to produce of course some more pure wine and a more better feeling what could be the vineyards. Then we did for the white wines going again for the white wines, so we did a white wine without oak, then we did another white wine after maybe three years reserve segment, we maybe about 50% with oak, a French oak, and then about almost eight or nine years after we started the concept of meravles. Meravles, it's a Latin name means marvelous. So in that time the Portuguese wines and especially iconic white wines in Portugal didn't almost exist anything and the whites had too much wood, they were a little bit tired, they're like acidity, they were not mineral, and again people thought they know that the white grapes were not, well they even, they didn't get great value in terms of perception and even in terms of price point. So I remember when I started, people was, everything was critics, because they didn't like the bottle, they didn't like the style, and well they even liked the label which is green from the start and everything was so different, but especially from people that really understood what could be a very, very good white wine, people start to love because people couldn't understand the difference about this, so we were talking about the altitude in Dorovale, changing soils from sheaths to granitic soils, and very special, not only grape varieties, but also special vineyards, so meravles nowadays it comes from 12 parcels and from three different areas in Dorovale, and especially views in Gauvallo, and sometimes also fuel blend from very, very old wines. So nowadays you have a different panorama in Portugal, so like all the world we are drinking more and more white wines, but I think this was not the phenomenon, the phenomenon was that people understood that they have the capacity to add value to white grapes, and they have the capacity to sell white wine in very good white wine. From the beginning also, we prepared also our wineries to do and to produce very good white wines because for that, you have to have also wine making technique, and not only about people, but also about machinery, and of course, again treating the maturation port very carefully. I'll give the example, sometimes people don't remember that the wine comes from a fruit, which is of course the grape, and fruit is fruit like other fruit, you know, like an apple, for example, if it is too soon we agree green, with no flavor, if it is too late, and it will be too mature and pleasant. So what you want is to eat the apple directly almost from the tree, and this was always, you know, in a common sense what was important for us. So we really was the maturation point and the verification process, of course, and the total amount and the type of barrels that we were using. So we went to almost one week to Volgaing because I think the French people are really the king, they are really the experts for the barrels, and we were saying they're tasting and tasting and tasting and talking about winemaking process because we knew how to do it already, a reserve white wine, but we wanted to achieve something marvelous and something higher, higher quality. So for that, of course, we were experimenting for many years and we were experimenting very focused for almost two years and then we got the first Miravles White in 2011. Well it sounds like you may have inspired a lot of people in the region to take white wine seriously. How big was the Duro White category when you started around 2000 sounds like versus today? Well I'm not sure about the numbers exactly, but I remember when we start, we start like 2000 bottles and probably it exists the iconic wines in Portugal, I might say like not more than 10,000 bottles and today you have, well, you don't have thousands of wine producers, but I think you can get to know many hands with a very good iconic wines not only in Duro Valley, but also in Vingensvier, there's also in Alentejo in down. So I think every niche player and every vignare that is making something with the propose and also having and treating a very well-there vineyard, they are, well, white wine is something very serious for them. So of course, sometimes people don't drink so often white wines, expensive white wines because they are more expensive and still you have the impression that well, it's too much money for a white wine which is something that for us, there's something very strange. Why not to pay well the same because the process even needs more expensive, but for many people still the red grapes or the red wine should be more expensive. So I think people are changing and producers are changing, wineries are changing and more and more wine producers are planting more white grapes and nowadays it is very clear for everybody that if they do white wines and if they produce them, probably they will sell almost everything. So this is important also, it's a changing program in the industry and also in Portugal as well. Yeah, the broader global wine market is definitely embracing more white over red the last few years, but the Duro itself is not known for still wine, let alone still white wines. How do you think Duro Whites distinguished themselves on a global wine stage? Well, you have a lot of shits here. What I think is what you can get is we are very close to Atlantic Sea and Atlantic coast, you know, whole Portugal, so it's not far away so we are a small country. Also the second biggest difference I think is our grapes which are native grapes and this make a total difference because it's a very old wine region in the world and when you have resilience and we have white grapes plantations for a long time. So the type of grapes they are totally adapted to the region. Well, I wonder what I talk about buzing and gov la iberbica to encodica letting you. So it's something that is very familiar for us but for majority of people they don't know how does it sound and how do they taste, but also it's the type of blending. So again, for us it's not a problem to blend, for us it's something very natural. I don't know why maybe it is well because why we have so many grape varieties maybe because well we as Portuguese people we travel all around the world we discover so many countries in the world. We have such a rich astronomy so usually when you have a rich astronomy and a rich culture I think also you have a rich grape variety in this case and this is the reality that we have so we didn't come from reality that you could split everything and you grow with the habit to do a wine with just one grape so we grow with the habit to do a wine with many grapes together and yes there's a knowledge here that took a lot of time almost 20 years so I'm 52 now and I remember when I started to go to Toro Viali that's sometimes I said it's almost two wine regions so you know Doro Viali is the same wine region for port and for still wines but you still have a lot of companies that are based in Doro Viali in the wine region and some of them they are based in the city which are the port wine sellers until the 90s people were totally different because young people they came all to Doro Viali to develop the future because we had a lot of opportunity and a lot of opportunity to make still wine and to produce still wine so it was a new generation and the first wine making course at the university just start in 1996 so meaning that supposedly that the seniors like me with 52 54 and 50 something like that there were the young people on that time with a totally new mindset so this is like a new world in an old world if we if we can say that all a new movement because we have this moment for the last 20 years it took time to go from port wine, viticulture and vinification because it's I may say that for port wine is a very natural process you have to have well good material on the vineyard it's not a difficult process to in the winery but then you go to still wines regarding red wines now you are talking more seriously in the in the wine making process and when you achieve the white wines for us at Viali Portuguese it is more difficult why because we were not used to develop that so it's something new and it's something that we didn't nobody teaches so we didn't have teachers in university our fathers and uncles couldn't not teach us because we didn't have white wines in Portugal of course you had for example verinho and now in some in Viali's but was just a few few in few produces they have a high high quality so with my generation we had to do our ourselves and tasting a lot of around the world and believe, believe that you could do something wonderful, changing a region, a one region, and changing the way that people see Portuguese wines and Dorovale and white wines in Portugal, of course. - And being from the same region as port, both coming from the Dorovale, do you think that was a pro when you took the wines to market or was it a challenge in terms of people think, oh, that place is good for port, not still white wines? (laughs) - I don't know, you have both experience and I think with older people, they didn't believe that is for sure. They didn't want to change and they believed that port one was enough, right? And then you have younger wine makers and younger thieves that they totally believe because they were traveling and they were talking with so many people and they couldn't understand that port one. It was, it has a special moment and still wines. It had a bigger market and we could see also the people from our age that they were starting to drink wine and to travel and to taste different gastronomies and starting for us, of course, one is culture in Portugal, but starting to see so many countries and one consumers to understand also that one is culture. So when we start 20, 25 years ago with this new structure, G, well, it was easier for us because it was like a copy. So we were talking about us as consumers as we saw the others also as consumers. So it was a generation thing, I might say that. - And given your business and marketing background, what were the key elements of your launch plan for Moralbus? - Well, I may say that sometimes when you have a small company, I think you desire more than you, then you state the whole time doing a plan or a theoretical plan. I think if you plan too much, especially these days, you don't do anything, honestly. So you have to go forward to believe. And sometimes it's a question we lead to have a good moment for that and work hard, of course, and go forward. I always work of course budgeting, business planning, and so on, but coming from an academic also of a marketing school, I think for me, it was not so important to do a detailed marketing plan because well, you didn't have so much money to invest because the production was small. People don't know Portuguese wines. And well, if they didn't know Portuguese wine, it's not because you are selling 2000 bottles or 10,000 bottles if they are going to understand Portuguese wines. So everything was working and still is, working and teaching about Portuguese wine, doing masterclass about Portuguese wines, always talking about grape varieties, always talking about different types of culture and different types of tradition in each wine region. So I think I never start to educate. This is important because also talking about Portugal, it's education because people don't know yet our country. They start to travel and do some tourism, but there's still so much to see and to learn about our country and our wines. So I think I just sometimes I go to, I don't do quite often that so much, but for example, when I was in Provin, I did a very short program taking just one morning, like two or three hours, I was out of my stand and on my table and I was not just passing through the corridors and see what the others doing, how was the behave, I was also tasting, I was seeing also the labeling, things were changing so fast. And I don't know, when you travel, you come always with great ideas also. You cannot apply everything, but I think you can see that the world is changing and if you are a young person, still if you are of course an old person, you always have to change. Not this, the essence, you, I'm not changing all the time, the essence because I believe you should build a goal and a way to do it, but you should be flexible as well because when you are in the wine business and you see that the climbing is changing every time, wine consumers are changing all the time. Even before COVID for example, you saw all the trends about the wine consumption and it was everything so quick, you know, this was amazing because for us, we are wine producers, we say, wow, how come a trend could be for the next five or seven years, how come after COVID is this just happened two years after? So we didn't have almost time to adapt. So you have to have your mind totally open and try, you know, and try and do the right things because I was young, I still, I think I believe I'm still young, I still have too many things to do, but it doesn't matter if all the others don't believe, because if you believe because you are sure that the wine is fantastic, you are sure that you have consumers for that, you are sure that you are doing a right way to maintain the vineyards and to do something different, why not? You don't need to go because the others say it's correct, okay? You don't change anything if you do this, so. - Yeah, you have the belief in the product, the faith, that it's a really good product and it has its place in the world and it also sounds like you did a lot of focus on broader education of Portugal and Portuguese wine and then as a shining example of it, then here's this amazing draw at white. Did you have specific geographies that you focused on or was it just all the major markets of the world? - Well, all the major markets are impossible, no? (laughs) We don't have time for that because selling wine takes a lot of time, takes a lot of time, a lot of passion and a lot of everything, a lot of us, I believe. Well, since beginning, I was focused in Portugal because I believe that if you are not good in your country, you cannot be good anywhere else. So I believe your country is a scenario and of course if people come here and they try your wines, it's the best marketing that you can get. But in Europe, we are more focused in some markets because many European countries are, of course, wine production countries. So there will not be our consumers or our goal. So I'm very focused in Switzerland, for example, and also the market, what I call Benelux or the Belgium, Luxembourg and Netherlands. They have a lot of Michelin star restaurants and they try to harmonize, of course, all the time, the food, the wine pairing, of course. Also, they are always educating consumers. So we believe that also this market is very important for Portuguese wines and Scandinavia, unfortunately, no, because it's a monopoly system and it's not a good system for us because we are more in the high level of quality. We focus also in Brazil because it's like our brothers, our family, so we have, they all speak Portuguese, they all have a cultural related with Portugal. USA and Canada are also important for us. That's it. So we have, of course, we have more countries but we prefer to be, we have five people. We are very small but we have five people working internationally and we prefer, again, to educate, to be part of our distribution strategy, be present in the market because we don't want to go, you know, every three years or every five years. So we go three or five times per year to each market. For this, we have to be close to our partners, distributors, consumers and listen all the time what people wanted and, of course, sells to them. This is very important. Sometimes this is more important than to have, well, labeling it's very important, I believe, design is very important because if we don't have a first impression on the shelf, it's going to be very difficult to sell a good wine and also a price positioning as well. But then it's relationship. This is everything about wine and more and more. So if you don't build relationship, you cannot sell wine and you cannot do branding. So you mentioned you have five people internationally. Where are they located internationally? So they are located all in Portugal? OK. What they do is from Portugal, they travel all around. So they're like a definitely premier status on the airlines? Yes. They spend a lot of time internationally. Yes, yes. So what role did the wine critics and their reviews play in gaining traction for high and wine like mirror billis? Well, in the beginning, as I said, it was difficult because when something's different, people won't believe sometimes. But I think maybe after 2015, so around 2017, because we already have some time with mirror billis about five years. So people start to understand that the wine itself, people also understood that we had grapes to do this in Portugal, which is because people didn't know that we had such a good grape in Portugal like that. So they understood because also the others were doing and step by step, we start to have, of course, to have better reviews. But honestly, and counting with all the press people and all the reviews, more important than to have reviews, it's to have a good wine, honestly. Because reviews 25 years ago could sell everything. But now, all the magazines, all the people do reviews and do punctuation. So even the market, the consumers, they don't pay attention so much to reviews. They pay more attention to the description of the wine, the type of the wine, the curiosity that they have, or what a friend said about this wine, and they trust in one producer. This is for me very important because when we close a blend and we close a wine, and we put the cork and we bolt it into everything, I always say we never know when the consumer is going to drink that bottle. If it is in two years, in five years, in ten years, you never know. In what conditions, if it is ten degrees, twelve degrees, six degrees Celsius, what type of food you don't know, and what age, and what one experience does the consumer have. So I think it's very important again, good grapes, beneficiation, the perfect time, fermentation and maturation with time in the winery, and get a great balance and good acidity because if you don't have a great balance, probably the one is going to change in different situations. Even can change in the transport. So because we never know, well, I think it's very important to that the consumers can trust on us, and this is the way that we believe that we can build the brand because when a consumer, for example, demand a wine in the restaurant, I always say, well, first we have to create a relationship with the owner, then of course with the employees, and this is, people have to trust, because if they trust in the brand, if they trust in a wine, they will always serve this wine. Well, without a wine, they say, a wine with no problems, and a wine that will be capable, that people can enjoy very much. And this is important to grow, and for Portuguese wines, because I'm Portuguese, I was born and raised in Portugal, but sometimes when I was selling Portuguese wine so many times, I said, well, if I was Italian or if I was French, I would sell the double. So this is a very difficult way, and it's step by step, and it's a lot of effort, and that's it. I think you have to be better than the others. And you mentioned that a lot of people are looking to their friends or other people for wine recommendations, and for validity is so the wine is good. Does that mean you think social media is a big part of your brand strategy? It should be more. That's why we are now starting in the marketing department with younger people, because my generation, we go and we work of course, and we use a lot of social media, but it's difficult to talk about the traditional product in the social media, because I think we didn't get it specifically because our wines are very classical, but at the same time, very contemporary, but we never know what kind of people is behind the screen, if it is a person with 25 years, if it is a person with 50 or 60, and what type of nationality. So we need to improve that, because sometimes when I see all the wine produced in the internet, they all talk about the same stuff, you know, so there's no knowledge here in the social media. So I think it's not my problem. It's a problem. Of course, we have that problem for sure. We have to recognize that, but it's a general problem of the wine industry. So we have to see and understand how can we communicate more, be more proactive, more active, and more sexy because if you don't capture the attention, how you kept new consumers, no? And be more obvious because we say so much vocabulary and it's everything so difficult, sometimes to drink a good wine, well, sometimes you just say, well, drink it, enjoy it, because it's wonderful. You don't need well, three different types of glasses, you don't need the perfect temperature, you just need to well, to enjoy that wine. And at the end, it's so simple, you know? We all wine producers have to make it more simple, because we are also eclectic, also different, and we sometimes forget that the consumer is there, and is there to drink the wine and not so much to listen what we are saying. So we say, "Papa, papa, papa, papa, papa, everything in this and that and that." And then, well, we say very few things about what was the motivation to do this wine, the soul of this wine, because the wine, each wine when you create a wine, each wine has a soul, no? It's an idea. I think it's why wine business is so passionate, because when you decide to create a new wine, for example, like Mirabili, so others that we have, it's because you believe and you have a purpose and you have a soul and you put all your energy in what you believe in that bottle. And maybe next year, you also have everything, but more because then you learn with one year more, with the vehicle tour process, and when you are more in the bottle. So you have the capability to learn with that one that you create. So, it's talking about more about pleasure, because wine should be pleasure, should be very pleasant, unless about things that the people won't want and they don't care. I think people are hungry, they want more love, more passionate things, passionate moments, and more relationship, because more fulfillment, if I may say, more fulfillment, and wine is everything about it. Totally agree. That's where I feel like the manga comic book drops of God, such an amazing example. Not that it's TV show as much as the comic book itself captures the essence of wine and an image and a picture. Given the different marketing channels and the need to capture that soul and passion, have you found any success doing either paid advertising or partnerships for mirror billers? Well, paid, but I think we never did. So it's everything worth of mouth and partnership, but there's a lot of different types of partnership. But I think more is that the people, they try, they taste, they like, they buy, they talk, and they buy it again, and they taste again, they talk again, and so they take, it's a good moment for them. And this is the best market that you can get, because you can have everything you can pay. And hopefully they share with their friends, right? Of course. You can have, imagine that you have one day the the goal to have that specific wine because everybody is talking and ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta. Okay. But if you never try the wine, if you never have the experience to bring the wine to your stomach, okay, you never get that experience. So, I think this is the worth that can happen to wine producer. And we should all be very happy when a consumer knows what is the wine, drink the wine, savor the wine, and they say, "Wow, what a nice wine." And this is what we want to achieve. And is the moment that you understand, "Well, this is why I'm here, you know, to make a difference, to be part of also the wine consumption moment." Because it's so nice when people really appreciate your wines. I think they say they can say beautiful things, but special when they really appreciate your wine because it's why wine makers are working all year, you know. All the people are putting their hands in the vehicle show why we are here. This is very positive and gives you the sensation that really makes a difference and you want to achieve more all the time. And so, if you had to start Mirabilis all over again and launch the brand at that time, is there anything that you do differently? I'm not sure because in the beginning we had a very interesting bottle, but then we couldn't find that bottle for many years because the producer, a little bit before COVID, said that you couldn't do that bottle. I think if you had the chance to revise another bottle that could be not this bottle and not the other bottle, but not the wine itself. I think I will do exactly the same. I love Mirabilis. I like very much the style, the profile. And I think all the wines have to grow and you have to grow with them. It's a kind of conversation as well. I don't have that feeling that I should change everything. No, I don't have. I think we did correctly. We did it well. That's, I think it's a very successful brand and it's one of maybe the most important white label, iconic white label in Portugal. Meaning that yes, I think we did it well. So when a good strategy, it's good when it works. So it doesn't matter if you change a little bit, but you see when it's good, when it works. But I have the feeling that sustain a brand on the top. It's also hard work because you cannot never have the feeling that, well, I'm marvelous, I'm fantastic. I'm there. So I'm going on vacation now. No. One business is not like that, especially in these days, not only because of competition, but again, because it's made of grapes, it's made of people, it's made of climber. And you can never, you go on vacation, yes, but always with your mind in your vineyard. That's definitely true. The wine industry is certainly in a challenging point these days. But so we'd like to wrap each episode on a more personal note. So we're curious what is the most cherished wine in your cellar and when you plan on drinking it? Let's see. Well, I have many wines in my winery, Portuguese and on Portuguese. And some wines, I, for example, If you consider a case of six or 12 bottles, I always say, well, I try to drink too now. And after five years, maybe too more. And I'm going to drink. But if I have to say, you know, very special things, not only because the wines are special, but the people that gave me the bottle are special. I have a few other areas very, very old from the 19th century that are still kept on the shelf. And when we open them, the brilliant are very special. And they have a very special tokai, which also I love. It's a tokai essence that I still didn't have the courage to open. I'm still-- I don't know exactly when it's going to be the moment. I think the moment is going to be when you feel it's special. But when you feel that the energy of the people around you will appreciate that. So I'm not that kind of person that I will wait for my daughters to marriage or something or not, when I will have 60 or now have 70. I think the most important is to enjoy the wine that we have with people that we feel very happy. And should be a very happy moment and a memorable moment. I think it's more to wait for the moment and the capability to have the people to appreciate that wine, of course, with me. [LAUGHTER] I think that's it. I don't know. That's a great philosophy to have for drinking wine and working down the cellar. Well, Luis, we so appreciate all the insights and the stories that you've shared with us. Thanks for taking the time and being on the show. Thank you very much. It was a privilege to be with you. And I'm glad that you are very interested in Portuguese wines because we are here. And of course, it's important to promote more and more these beautiful wines. Thank you. Hey, listeners. If you love this show, support it by buying a show notes book. They not only compile two years of episodes, but also organizes them into themes for better learning. They can be an inspiration to listen to or relist into an episode or provide a quick reference of the key learnings from a show. Go to xchatto.com and click on the store page for easy links to buy. Thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us. If you loved this episode of xchatto, we'd love for you to subscribe. Rate and give a review on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. Until next time, cheers. [MUSIC PLAYING]