Believe It or Not: Luka for MVP, the Pistons Are Contenders, and More | Group Chat

Hello and welcome to Group Chat, I am Rob Mahoney, that is Kyle Mann. Kyle, the three of us went to Minneapolis together and Justin Varyer apparently did not return. Do you know his whereabouts right now? Three men went into the woods, it's the classic three men went into the woods two came out kind of situation. I'm shocked because Justin has a repute, he's the iron horse, I call him the iron horse a lot. He loves that. He loves that. Yeah, he really has a lot of gumption, he has a lot of fortitude and I don't know man, the cold weather, maybe he wasn't built for it, I thought moving to Portland, he'd been conditioned to the cool and rainy weather, but it took him down, it was either that of the hot wings. That are the hot wings or the handshakes and kissing babies because I got to say Kyle, the group chatter showed up. We had people driving in from all across the Midwest all over the place, log in road trips. I was shocked by that. Well, that's our vibe, is it not like we're the throw it on on a road trip kind of podcast and apparently the drive and then see a show and then drive five or six more hours back home kind of live podcast. Have you ever done the suit, I also wanted to tack on that, it's super rich, even in a joking sense for me to try to anyone about going down sick when literally the episode before I just missed the episode for being sick anyway. No, have you ever done that one? I remember, Megan and I went and saw Grizzly Bear, like a very late show in Nashville and did like the two and a half drive, our drive home late. Have you ever done that one where you're like, like maybe I need to like take a caffeine pill. This is so bad drive home from a concert. The one for me was not a concert, it was an MBA event, which was the 2010 All-Star game in Dallas. I did the Austin to Dallas and then drove back to Austin post media availability after the All-Star game. Just an absolutely horrendous decision, especially like I don't know what you're driving experiences in Texas Kyle, but like 35 in particular is just straight highway hypnosis, like you were just seeing things, you were just like entering a weird trans state. I genuinely have no idea how I made it back alive. But you know what? Somehow I did, somehow you returned from Grizzly Bear, that's our kind of gumption I would like to think. Yeah. Yeah, you ever get that guitar center effect where you're watching the road come towards you and it's just like you're, I don't know what that is when you and you just start blinking, it's like running water. Anyway, I enjoyed Minneapolis, beautiful town, like I joked on the show, much more hippie than I expected, much more of the cut from the Portland and Austin cloth. So I had a great time. It was good. So it was good. Hopefully our live show in Indianapolis coming up at December will also be good. You can still buy tickets to that at the ringer.com/events. But Kyle, we got a lot to get into today. We're going to play a classic game of group chat, believe it or not, a gimmick that we pioneered, that we invented. No one else was looking at early season trends before us, so I'm glad to dip back into this with you. But first, let's throw it a break. The ringer NBA show is presented by FanDuel. It's the NBA season and FanDuel is calling it your most rewarding season ever. I mean, more rewarding than watching a center pull up from three and actually knock it down. That's good stuff. With FanDuel Rewards Clubs offers, surprises and more, there's plenty to look forward to all season long. Download the FanDuel app to get started. 21 plus and select states, 18 plus and DC are Wyoming. One problem called 1-800-Gambler, call 1-888-789-77777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. Okay, Kyle, we are back. We are going to be looking at the early season trends and our various belief and/or the fact of fiction of them. But first, today was decision day, as far as a lot of the late-breaking rookie scale options. Some very. I will say some surprising names at the top of the pile. First of all, Nicola Topic for the Oklahoma City Thunder has been through a harrowing or deal to start his NBA career and will not be a member of this franchise beyond this season. Are you. I think this is surprising to say the least, but what do you make of this entire situation with Topic in the Thunder right now? Well, to stick with my tendency to bring up the Simpsons lately, I feel like a real Frank Grimes start to his career. It's really buzzard luck between like a back problem towards ACL, obviously. He had the not so small, not insignificant cancer scare that he had. He's had a hell of a time, man, and it's interesting because if there were any position, you combine that with the Thunder, I was joke, have a type. I mean, they love 6566 picking roll operators and they've, you know, panhandled for those and had some success. I hope it was a guy that we just never really got to see get off the ground. I think if you watched him in the smaller scale, lower stakes events where he did get to play, I didn't get the impression that he was out of place. It's just interesting that I feel like Bennett starts as a guy who comes in and checks a lot of the same boxes a little bit, and honestly, they might be about the same age since Topic was a teenager playing proball in Europe, but starts can shoot the ball. It may just be kind of a situation where they had to pick in a perfect world they would kept him because I don't think he doesn't look like an NBA player. What do you think? I think that's the part that's a little weird for me where it's not that he's not an NBA talent. He's had a bad run. He's had health and injury, bad luck, but to not pick up his option basically means that you don't even want to particularly dangle him as a trade chip. Like I would think even if he's not a part of the Thunder's future, even if they have to take a hard look at their finances and say, even though Topic himself doesn't make a ton, the penalties with all of these other massive contracts may make that feel a little heftier. That makes sense. But I would think having him another year under contract would still be appealing to other teams and other scouts and other foreign offices that might like who he could be or like his potential. And I don't know. I thought we had seen glimpses enough of it or maybe we've just talked ourselves into those glimpses enough that I'm a little surprised that he's not worth having under contract for one more year if for the purpose of moving him on to a different place. He's going to get another shot obviously. It's interesting because he is in sort of the mold. He's not quite as big as Gidey, but the big paste guard who isn't a super, you know, not a great pull-up threat. He'll find another chance to play. I had wondered if they might use and I'd had it suggested to me that maybe they might use Sorber and Topic as a way to sort of package together and try to find a two-way wing maybe a little bit that could solve some of these short-term problems that they're going to have. But I would definitely say that Sorber was the guy between the two of them that I was like I'm not going to come off of Sorber just because I think that he's got a lot of upside. And then obviously now that Chad is having his issues we might see a little bit more. The other Jaylen Williams is having his issue. It's real, it's real joe from the Old Testament luck that the O.K.C. Thunder are having right now in terms of their entries, which, you know, I guess it didn't open up enough opportunity for Topic, but I do think that it could for Sorber. I hope so. But yeah, definitely the wrong kind of biblical for a lot of things going on O.K.C. right now. The wrong kind of biblical. Well, I think with Rob Monty. Let's pioneer in that series. Let's just soft-launch that today. But so Topic still kind of like an idea of a player, a concept that maybe someone will buy into a second draft candidate for sure for somebody to John Salon though with the Charlotte Hornets. They decline his option. The former number six overall pick. It's not like they didn't try. And I would say this is kind of part of the gradual exorcism of the old version of the Hornets from a previous regime that seems to be happening. I mean, you can see it with the Lamello ball trade first and foremost, but this is a continuation of that idea. I'm not saying no one will take a chance on to John Salon from this point, but he has been in the rotation. He's been in a style that should have suited all of his strengths. And I don't know that we've seen a lot of compelling evidence to say that he's like a mainstay NBA player to this point. Yeah. There's a funny thing. If you, I would love to go dig some of this up. It's whenever people are trying to be optimistic and not write people off or not write players off. We, a lot of these guys, when they come to league, it's a lot of sight unseen with Salon. He came in and you know, I noticed and started to get amused by these patterns that were showing up in the way people were talking about him. It would always kind of circle back to, man, he's so big. Oh, God. Have you seen how big he is? It's like, okay, look, do we have any comments about basketball, you know? Well, it was always, if only he can learn how to play basketball effect if he can stop fouling and figure out how to move and also shoot, like maybe he'll have something. Yeah. And you see some of that with guys like, I remember, you know, I mean, Leonard Miller is an example of people just really talking about the physical stuff, even though the basketball stuff was really hard to describe and latch on to. It was just easy and everywhere it didn't, it didn't take shape or form a materialized. With Salon, it's like, you know, this past couple of years, there has been an opening. I think there's been a very vivid, specific job description at his position and a need. So there's a clear developmental roadmap of just like, hey, man, don't, whatever your aspirations are for you broadly as a player, you know, put those to the side there, the specific jobs that need to be done here that you could just focus on and do those things and fit into the team setting. And even then it's just kind of like not quite. And you're talking about, you know, the carryover from the Jordan regime, I don't know if you've had this experience. as a homeowner. We had this experience where we moved in. Well, first of all, check your privilege, Kyle. Come on. Do you think I'm going to be able to connect to you as a homeowner? I live out in Banjo wide open spaces. It's not as big a deal. You have a real hang up on that. There's space out here, Rob. I've invited you to move out here. You should come. You don't have to live in a sardine. You don't have to do it. You can live out here. I've been doing it. Anyway, we moved into this house. And the previous homeowner just left a lot of crap. We as people who had never bought a house didn't really know. We didn't understand that we could have taken them to task and been like, hey, come get this crap. We were passive about it. So then you go through the process of some of it is like, maybe I'll find use for it or whatever it is. And then slowly you get to the point where we're just like this stuff got to go. And maybe that's what the hornets have done over here. They came in and they were like, this thing is here. The last owner left it. Maybe we'll find a way to use this plug-in hedge trimmer thing or whatever it is. That was an example for us. They eventually were like, no, we don't, this has to go. We got to get our own stuff in here. Maybe that's maybe, maybe Stallone is just sort of like a plug-in hedge trimmer that the hornets just couldn't find a use for eventually. He does have kind of a plug-in hedge trimmer game. Like just a complete contradiction in many respects. A real like, what is the practical use for this exact item under these circumstances? Does it really track? But so I think he has been kind of asked and answered as far as initial role, initial projections is not the guy that he was slated to be coming out of the draft or at least when he was selected at number six. The jazz also did not pick up the option on Isaiah Collier, who I would say we've gotten a good look at. And his problem is not that he is undefined or even that he wasn't as advertised, but he's just limited as a scorer in a degree that like, hard caps who he can be as a point guard. And then also the Denver Nuggets did not pick up the option on Duran Holmes, who has, I mean, just been injured to this point. And I think has not had an opportunity to prove himself. And might just like any time I see a player with his track record, not get their option picked up, my thought is like that medical must look real, real bad to not even want one more year to see if this guy can kind of figure it out. I'm not trying to call any of these franchises or front offices cruel Rob, but you cut a guy that had cancer. You cut a guy that tore his Achilles. It's all fair. And if just I'll let them just work through that. However, they want to you. You're talking about well, before we move on from that, I think in particular for the Thunder, a franchise that we all have great admiration and respect for. And I think have done a genuinely great job of building culture. I don't think you get to play the like, we're all family here. Let's go to the company picnic card after you cut the guy who had cancer. Like I just don't think you could, well, not cut, but did not pick up his option. It feels a little talk inside out of both sides of your mouth on that one. They didn't break up with him. They just didn't renew the relationship. It's interesting, you know, I'm sure Justin, I was Justin, we're here too. I'm sure he's run through the gamut of scenarios on that one. You were talking about who's like the scoring part with Collier. I mean, we had a nice, we had a nice experience where we walked over to what was at Barney's in Minneapolis, when the World Series was going on. Was that the name of the little pub, a little pub across the street? Little like Brewer's bar under the circumstances. Sure. And we walk in immediately and realized like, oh, yeah, there's a lot of the sickos who were at our show or just over here chillin. And it was that made me feel like we were in the right place. But we had people come up and we're asking us about what was it? MPJ versus Ben Simmons. But it got one of the points I remember bringing up was just, it's an interesting fate that like the falls, a player where you can have really exemplary playmaking skills. But if you don't have the risk, like that is a responsive skill set to putting pressure on the defense at the score. And like you drafted Ricky Rubio. I personally think I won the that guy draft from the show, but I think the audience otherwise the crowd cheered every single pick. And then the mics didn't pick it up. I was blamed on Isaiah for not mixing it in very well. So that's on him. So I'm not trying to indict his, you know, production abilities. But I don't know, it didn't match my perception. Anyway, with Collier, great passer can make every pass in the book. Yeah, just you got to have the offense that you got to be a threat because the offenses are so athletic and so fast and smart that if you can't score all of that, that playmaking, all those playmaking chops in the end. Topic, interesting kind of parallel between those two players, where it's just like you just start to become a conditional player and it's harder to invest in those guys, I guess at the end of the day. Yeah, I think as far as kind of expiring archetypes in the NBA over the last 15 years or so, who are the guys who've been kind of slowly weeded out. We always talk about the bigs, right? It's always like, oh, the seven footers, oh, the post players, oh, the, you know, the Joliel Okefors of yesterday, they didn't get a chance to blossom into whatever they would have become in the 80s or 90s. This to me is the archetype of guy that just doesn't really have a place in the league anymore, which is a point guard who, as you said, has the passing game, has the like floor management sensibilities in a lot of ways. But like, if no one takes you seriously to score, you just have nowhere to go with the ball on a consistent basis. And it just, it completely limits who you can be. It completely limits how your team can look at you by extension. It's just, I'm eager to see kind of what the breaks of the game, what basketball comes for next, right? Like, who are the next guys to our leverage or squeezed out? Because these point guards, it's just a tough break for them. Not only if you can't shoot, but if you aren't enough of a driver, or finish around the basket to really stress anybody out. Have you heard people talk much about like the diet of the shot clock, like the way the shot clock is, have you heard coaches talk about this the way? In what sense? Like, what we want happening at this section of a clock. And the, I've listened to some, I mean, one of my like, off say, I've said this before I chose, but like, one of my favorite like off-season rituals is just listening to coaching clinics because you'll just get thrown off your spot a lot of times in terms of like, what you're thinking about or analytics guys, we're like, oh my god, they're thinking about the extent to which they're thinking about two for one. Like, are you kidding me? You know, just stuff like, it gets that nerdy and granular. Well, plus I feel that I mean, you, you were always like a, like a guarantee to pull out some clip of a coach doing a weird dance or a weirdly like, how routine-esque, overly excited move in response to something from these clinics. Like, they don't quite know that a camera is rolling and they really let their hair down sometimes. Yeah, the, well, the Bob McKillip set to Billy Dean, I think was the classic one. And I happened to meet Bob McKillip's son and he, and I brought that up and, and told him that I'm, I was the one that did that clip and he looked at me like, you did that? Anyway, uh, no, um, I, I was listening to something where they were just talking about the diet of the shot clock and just the initial action thing and then secondary action thing, just figuring out what you're going to do with a player like a Topic or an Isaiah Collier. You're like, we want to use this as like a connection thing, but in order to do, like, there obviously not going to be the primary option because Topic not a crazy pull-up threat, call you're not a crazy pull-up threat. So then you're not getting the benefit of his passing because they're giving him padding. And then you think about, okay, we'll put him in the second action. So it's like, all right, is he a great catch and two guy? Compromise a little bit there. It's like, you can't be that type of player and still add tremendous value. You have to be a pretty special basketball player. A Sartonson is a guy that I think is going to come up over the course of this pod. That's an example. It's just really hard to do, man, so I think that's part of it. So in terms of just talking about how to get the most out of a shot clock, which is the way these coaches and these teams think, it's just really hard to integrate from a negative starting point of like, this guy can't catch and shoot. Totally. It's like how do you use them? Yeah. Well, let's advance our shot clock. You know, we've hit ahead. We're into early transition. We're getting into our stuff now. We got to get into our bag with some believe it or not. The name of the game is very simple. The framing is very simple. We present an early season trend that we've been keeping an eye on. That's been in the NBA side, guys. And we try to decide how we feel about it. This is something that's going to stick around. It's something that we genuinely believe can hold up or means anything in really any way whatsoever. And I think we simply have to start Kyle with Luca Doncic. And the framing I would put to you is this. That Luca, today, is the front runner to win MVP. How does that idea hit you going into the season? I picked Vick. I picked Vick. I guess the the horses can kind of like slow down and even out as we come around the turn here. And we're, you know, we're starting from different spots. He started slow. If we're looking across the league at production, Luca's having an unbelievable year. I mean, it sits pretty well with me just looking at it from a production. It's 37.7 43.2% from three. I know we'll get into more specifics on that. And we're coming up this game against the Raptors, where he had 45, 15 and six. His third, 40 plus scoring game of the season. Like he is, he's been filling it up in every possible way. And I think in a fashion that's like pretty undeniable to this point, despite what Justin might say, which coincidentally, is why we're talking about this when he's not here. You and I need to have a candidate on his conversation about Luca Doncic and Justin simply won't allow it. He just won't. Yeah, he's not into it. Um, it's, it's an interesting situation. He had like, I think 26 after the first quarter last night. And then it had like a slow. And I think he'd hit 30 by like the 10 minute mark in the third quarter. This team is, is really. It's catered to his strengths in the classic way in that you've got some catch and shoot guys. The eyeball actually has sort of like rounded into shape in that sense. Yeah, he's like shooting no, shoot no dip threes. You've got La Ravia classic play with Luca guy. You've got the secondary, the secondary handler, like a Quentin Grimes who crossed, which is in guard. It's a lot of the classic archetypes. And then the Walker Kessler stuff. stuff. Honestly, man, I think the thing that you can kind of poke and prod and question whether or not it's true, the shooting's just been unreal. That's the part of it that is all the typical Lucas stuff is going on, but the shooting has just been outrageous. If this, if this pace holds, he's at 13 and a half three point attempts for game, Rob, that would be the 13 and a half threes at game. And that would, I gotta say in watching them, they don't feel unreasonable. You know, like, like, you do feel like, of course, Luga Donchitch has his hands on the wheel. Like, he's in control in the way that we're used to seeing. But he will force him. He'll occasionally go back to that step back, maybe like one too many times on a run or in this game in particular, when he, when he got in range against the raptors of like setting a personal best for threes made in the game, you could feel him forcing it a little bit. But 10 out of those 13, 11 out of those 13 on a nightly basis are totally reasonable shots and shots that if I were a coach, I'd be like, completely happy with him taking. Well, I was going to say too that that would be the highest rate in NBA history if he holds, which no, I'm not going to put it past Luga to keep that going just. And the shooting is an interesting component to, as we're talking, this is, this is the direct inverse to what we're talking about with the guys who didn't get reupped of just if you want to have a typical guy at the center, if you're off and you can drive good off and to be, you know, in the lead engine, you know, a six foot a guy who can shoot pull ups, but the interesting thing is that this is the only podcast where we will fully break down the difference between Isaiah Collier and Luca Doncic, like the people need to know where that dividing line is. And I think who better to show them than us. It's, yeah, I mean, you're looking at two species side by side. And I'm just like, I don't really one doesn't have stripes. It's like the what's the real difference here? I think we can we do a blood test. How can we tell the difference in Collier and Doncic? He, you brought up like the lack of step backs and things like that. That has been really fascinating to me is that I had it written down here, the types of threes that he's taking. He's shooting more pull up threes per 100 than any season since his rookie year. But the numbers say that he's shooting fewer self created threes. And I was like going through and watching. I was like, how are both of those things true? He's shooting a lot of threes just on like simple ball reversals. Like I had a few clips that I pulled where and some of that is he's just stationing himself like 30 feet from the basket on a ball reversal and just taking those shots and they're going in. Have you noticed any you mentioned the the step backs? I mean, have you noticed anything else different about like the types of threes that he's taking? I think the reversals are the big one that feels most notable. And a lot of it just comes down to the nature and the ethic of the Lakers ball movement, which I think has been pretty exceptional. Like Luca himself creates in a way and at a level that is just like top of the top of the league sees the game and set in such an incredible way anticipates rotations better than almost anybody out there. So he will get you into motion. And I think from there, all of their old guys are doing such an incredible job of swinging it around the horn of keeping the action moving like it doesn't feel static in the way that a Luca skeptic or a Luca detractor will will bring up as far as like that conversation. And sometimes to be fair, the player he's been in some seasons. There's been years where he hasn't been fully healthy. He hasn't been separating. He hasn't been getting into the lane or beating his man quite as much. And it does feel like a possession can bog down in the way that he tries to manipulate it and micromanage it. This hasn't felt that way at all. Like the ball is pinging around. And even some of these games where if you watch it, Luca feels absolutely dominant, not only as a score, but as a playmaker. And you'll look up and he has four, five assists. And a lot of that is because of the way the ball is being dispersed and then swung and then often swung back to him in these cadences. And so I just feel like all of their role players across the board right now. I mean, some of it's like Walker Kessler short rolling and passing out and triggering guys that way. But really it's a lot of these wings and shooters. So I think are just really finely tuned right now to understand this is when I need to gun it quickly in the no dip Matisse thiable kind of fashion. And this is when I needed to put it on the floor and keep it moving. And for this collection of guys who were kind of cobbled together in a Luca image, but also on the fly to be able to pull that off at this level, I think it's just really, really impressive. Yeah, I think I want I went through and watched the Spain kind of trio of Reeves. I mean, Kess, I want to ask you about Kessler as a screener because you watch so much of the he was the Dallas guy watched so much of that. I'm sure the Reeves and Kessler and Luca Spain trio to is a really effective one as a simple idea. It is because Reeves is such a dynamic score off the catch or just playing straight up. We've seen him. He can make something out of nothing. I've loved that. But I do think that the Kessler screener partnership, I wonder if I thought about that enough in the preseason and where I mean, where do you think he ranks in terms of screening partners that Lucas had in terms of, you know, the poisonous thing was short-lived of think about Powell. Yeah, is it possible that he's the best partner that Lucas had so far? It's possible. I mean, there were certainly great moments from Derek Lively and as a lob target Daniel Gafford was so good for him. But yeah, I think like Dwight Powell, he's so often like a weird punchline in NBA terms and even like Maverick fandom terms, but was a really good pick and roll player and a really fluid pick and roll player. And Kessler is like learning in that way. I think the thing he has going for him, I don't think he always makes enough contact on the screen itself, but he's so big and he's so hard to navigate around even still that Luca may be more than any other ball handler doesn't even necessarily need the screen to hit like he just needs you to delay. And if you delay at all, he can get you on his back, he can get into the lane. He can start making the defense super uncomfortable. And so I think Kessler has shown a really good capacity to to screen and re screen to stick with it to keep playing those possessions out to not dive too early, even when it seems like that might be what a big should do. I think they're both reading each other at a pretty high level already. And so if that can improve at all, if this is the ground floor of what ultimately could be a multi-year super successful pick and roll partnership, I mean, the sky's the limit as far as that kind of fulcrum of who the Lakers could be. Yeah, you were mentioning the the screening angles. And I think that is something with Luca in particular that he's one of the there were a couple of things I wanted to just pull apart with you in general about him where Kessler was not was setting more of those like North South screens a little bit earlier instead of like side to side East West where you know Lucas like turning this the corner you know left or to the right. And like you said, if he gets any kind of gap or delay or something in your behind Luca, it's like you live there. And I know that something that and you're going to live there until he gets all the way to the nail and make something happen. But he Luca, I want to talk this will be a recurring thing I think that shows up because one of the things that I've really been watching early in the in the in the season here is the the officiating changes in the way that that's been specifically the screening stuff man at the end of the year last year that stuff was like just driving me insane the push screens like yeah it's amazing how like we just get so jaded and defeated that we just start to accept some of this stuff or we're like well this is just the NBA which is a basketball product it's not actual basketball and there gets to be this separation between those two ideas where we're like the NBA is why does it just have to be a basketball pro it become that's just another word for like a perversion to me at some point I know this is like an old man rant but like no you know why do we hope it right now like this is fire and brimstone talk from you where do I mean the trainer brain stuff like really drives me crazy with the arm-barring but Luca in particular as much as I've complained and like Chris fans have hit me up and said hey stop complaining will Luca whatever but um he doesn't necessarily do the arm-barring thing as much I'm not going to say he doesn't do it but Luca has been a little bit like evolution proof in terms of that that being a problem for him because when he gets in the lane he's so good at like sticking to people for a moment you know like physically sticking and then separating from them without extending his arm some of that I guess is just when he hits you even at slow speed it quies like this too it's like you're like oh whoa you know there's a little bit of the the doubling back and he's still getting to his spots and creating separation without like that arm extension stuff yeah I mean I don't know in terms of like who can create out of those situations where you have close proximity not fully extending the arm he can step back so easily into a jumper when he does he's so good at baiting the foul if you come with him he's also great at then stepping through if you if he keeps this dribble alive and all throughout that process he's looking at several different passing options and evaluating them with incredible clarity and so I think what you're seeing in a lot of these situations is I mean there's so many no-win premises that Luca puts you into I think like the north-south screening you're talking about with Walker Kessler's a great example of this where when you just think about the dynamics of how the angle that you're setting a screen east and west gives you a lot a lot of to to get into the lane get actions going if you set a north-south screen which we're talking about like the screener really like back to the basket almost in terms of the way that they're setting for a defender to get around that they have to go under and if they have to go under Luca can take that three literally anytime he wants and so it's like you're really baiting people to make a really dramatic defensive decision in that case And I just, I don't know with the way that anyone is playing right now that I would trust anyone to make those decisions more out of that kind of advantage. Like he is creating more and more effectively and more efficiently than anyone else in basketball right now. And it's just not a coincidence that when you look across the Laker lineup, all of these guys are having career years in terms of efficiency so far. All of these guys are producing at just ridiculous levels. And so long as that is the case, like, yeah, the scoring numbers will probably come down a little bit. The threes might regress somewhat certainly in percentage, but even from attempts from historic record setting to merely bonkers bananas level volume, which honestly would be fine. I think the big differentiator as far as like the awards race and how people are talking about Luka this season, a lot of it is who he is defensively. And he like, he is actually trying and engaging and working still flawed, still susceptible to getting across the fuck up by Steph Curry now and again, like he's going to he's going to get his trips over some times. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's that's the way it goes when you're out there trying to defend on an island, but like taking charges, putting his body on the line, really investing in some of that part of the process. And if he is even just like not a joke on defense, if he's not like the point and laugh clips going around the internet kind of defender, and instead is just a contributor, I think this is this award is his to lose. Like this, the player he's been on offense is in arguable. Like it may not beat everyone's taste, but like what can you really refute about the production he's had the role within the offense? Like it's so self evident, this kind of case that I'm sure other guys will present themselves when being included, Yoke, Che, like all the usual suspects, but this might be Luka's best chance yet to actually put a stamp on this thing. Luka was very much like Bane raised in the darkness in terms of his spatial sense because he's just been playing this way since he was a kid. Like if you watch if you watch clips of Luka as a kid, he was so acclimated spatially to the way the game works. That when he's out there, man, he just looks like he's on a lazy river sometimes, like in terms of getting like he's just kind of the it's so effortless. He knows what's coming. I don't really you mentioned the initial in that text of this you I don't really I don't really know that there's anyone in the world who I would trust more or has more options and more capability to to utilize or access those options than Luka when it comes to creating an initial advantage. Like if you get him into now what happens after that like we were talking about like shot clock and the first 10 seconds 12 seconds of the clock. Yeah. Luka isn't a lead offense if you give him the if you give him the right options and things like that. But you can nitpick him in terms of you know I think we'll get to Cade Cunningham later on I've teased a saw and Cade Cunningham. They're he's a little different than those types of guys. But I feel like his willingness to play off of an initial dummy action that might be like Austin Reeves or whatever it is. He seems a little more breezy about those things which is just going to help him score more and more. He had that play where it's talking about the lazy river thing just the ease and the nonchalantness. He had that play. It might have been in the first half where he caught it on the right corner like corner elbow or corner wing there. And he just did like a right hop and intentionally shot it off the glass from three and I think we text each other just like such as it's just stupid sometimes like the stuff he pulls off. Also, I just want to say for the record lazy river as a basketball nickname is incredible. I don't think anyone would ever own it for obvious reasons. But I think whether it's Luca or anybody should be flattered to be the lazy river of the NBA. I was trying to think though of who else is in contention for who I would trust with that. It's Yokech, it's Luca LeBron isn't like hunting it with like all eyes on him all the time the way that he did in the past. But at one point, he would have been in that conversation. It's just it's a short list of guys that I would trust to create and make those reads like Luca does. And right now, I mean, yeah, if it holds, he's leading in a lead offense. And I think he's he's at the top of the MVP conversation. His being in that short list is the same reason that guys like you and I have been talking ourselves into Luca as an MVP candidate for years and years and years now. This this case just feels a little different. It feels a little more solid. He is featured in just the right way. But there are a lot of look needs to play 65 games needs to continue in every possible respect needs to maintain the focus and the defensive intensity and all those little things over the course of the season because the challengers will be coming. The ringer NBA show is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA is back and this is your most rewarding season ever on FanDuel. How rewarding are we talking? More rewarding than a half court buzzer, Peter. More rewarding than a 29 point comeback. Maybe even more rewarding than a center knocking down a three. I mean, come on. Everybody loves when the big man lets it fly. And this NBA season, that feeling doesn't stop on the court. Look out for FanDuel Rewards Club exclusive offers, surprises and more. Personally, in terms of the bets that are available now, I actually really like the Detroit pistons that win it all in the NBA Cup. I think we're all trying to figure out like how to judge the competitive balance of the cup. But the pistons care about this stuff. They're going to be playing super hard. They're defense and super trustworthy. I like them there at +800. But every week, check the FanDuel app to see what's waiting for you. Make this your most rewarding season ever with FanDuel. Download the app to get started. 21 plus in select states or 18 plus in DC or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800-Gambler, call 1-888-789-77777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. I do want to turn the page a little bit to a team on the other end of the spectrum. And that's the New York Knicks, the defending champions. They're offense not going quite so smoothly. They are two and four to this point. The 20th ranked offense in the NBA, 17th and point differential. The statement I would put to you, Kyle, for believe it or not, purposes is that the Knicks are in real trouble. No one wants to get ahead of ourselves with this stuff. You know, like these are the defending champs. They've proven a lot. Is there anything you've seen from them to date that gives you real cause for concern? This has been the Knicks experience, man. I mean, this is honestly not out of character for them, just even before they won the title. It was just like, yeah, they kind of go away for a little bit, come back. But I do think there are some extraneous kind of factors that are going on here. I mean, at the beginning of their schedule, woes me, right? You get the combination of you're on everybody's radar. Everybody's coming for you. You're coming back. You're trying to, you know, we can get into this, but you as Mike Brown, you Rob as Mike Brown, are trying to after a title and after this crazy success, you know, you're on cloud nine and a city that's obsessed with basketball. You're feeling good. How do you take that euphoria and just quickly turn around and be like, I got to be better? That's a hard thing to do. How do you mind new things within your offense when you're running it back? They're trying to answer those questions. But I think in the early goings of the schedule, man, I mean, other than the bulls, sorry, bulls, they're they're playing some good competition and they've lost, you know, loss of the Celtics by four, the magic by nine, be the bulls had a good win over the pistons. But the early goings of the schedule combined with they've had some travel things that were a little unfortunate to I and we can get into it, but I'm initially not concerned for those reasons just to start. I don't know if you are. I have some concerns and I think, look, it would be ridiculous after everything that the Knicks proved and every way that as you said, they solved and resolved and course corrected everything they went through last year in the regular season and even over the course of their playoff run, like they just answered every single bell. I do wonder though if they are this kind of team though, where they take some of that answering for granted at a certain point, like just because you can do that doesn't mean you should want to do that. And I think coming into a year like this one where it's not that you watch the Knicks and it's like, oh, that guy isn't trying or this guy really enjoyed himself this off season and like, doesn't seem like he came into camp in shape or whatever. I think a lot of their issues are guys trying to do a little too much. And some of that can be coming off of the glove title, coming off of all the adulation that comes with it, like trying to drive a little too aggressively when you shouldn't, trying to force an opportunity that really isn't there. Like this is a team that usually keeps its turnovers like pretty well in check and has been like pretty erratic in that regard, I would say as far as like just busting out of some of those norms. I just I wonder though how much like we all we all joked and like had a good time with the idea that the Knicks won the title on the power of friendship, but like they straight up did win the title on the power of friendship and with this like very specific, very in tune kind of chemistry. If that chemistry wavers at all because of early struggles, because of extension talks that faltered because of whatever any guy is feeling like they need every member of this rotation, especially the starters, but even going to like your Landry shamits to be dialed in in a really serious way. And if they are not, all of a sudden this team starts looking like a little rickety pretty quickly. And so I'm trying not to freak out about it, but I also don't want to pretend that they won even with an all-time dominant run through the playoffs, like this isn't an unimpeachable, unassailable team. You seen the Knicks or the Care Bears? Is that what you're getting at? Are they? I mean like I think that's kind of the vibe that they put out, you know. It was the other thing is the power of friendship. I'm going to be real about it. I'm not dialed in on the Care Bear Lord like you are. Like that's I know that's your area, but you're going to have to bring the rest of us into it. We're all drawn to what we're drawn to. We all have our vices that we can't shake and mine is the Care Bears. I just can't shake it, man. Anyway, my wife's like cow can you. please come to bed and not now, I'm gonna watch the camera. No, you're right in that this was a team that obviously was still is. Veteran-laden, super role players, there are some elite role players and when you say role player, people get, you know, they get some kind of way and feel insulted by that but to be a high quality role player in the NBA. It takes a conscientious basketball player and you know, the nicks have a lot of those with bridges and with OG but I mentioned bridges because to start with, when the, when the, you're right, when the, when the whole, the sum of the parts, when they aren't, when the parts aren't put together perfectly, this is the type of team that needs, needs to be put together perfectly and some guys just aren't playing well, you know, that's playing amazing. Brunson is doing all the stuff that he normally does but bridges has just not started well. So to speak to the, everything not kind of coming together perfectly, him just not playing well is, is really kind of compromising the integrity of the whole right now. He's just not shooting the ball well. He's in the after six point two points per game so far. It's day need him to be good for this, for this whole thing to harm the way that it should. Well, I mean, it took everything they had to pull off that come back against the bulls including benching McHale bridges for the majority of that second half and it's because like guys like Shamit, guys like Clarkson, guys like even Tyler Colick, we're just giving them better minutes in that game and so look, McHale bridges has been through those sorts of lulls. Like again, like I feel ridiculous because we've done this and we literally did this last season. Like we were going through the same beats just at a different stage. I think it's just a little start coming off of the title run in particular where I was wondering, is this going to be a different next team? Is there going to be a security here that feels like a different experience keeping up with them over the course of the season? And maybe what they're showing is that it's just not going to be that, that they're never going to be quite that kind of team who for, you know, nine straight months has everything completely figured out, they're going to be one that finds themselves over the course of the thing. It's like kind of figuring out where they're going to land while they're in the air. And the way that they did that over the course of last season, I mean, we've talked it to death in terms of the game planning adjustments, like using cat as more of a facilitating passer, some of what they were doing defensively, what they found in being able to cobble together these lineups with smaller guards that did not play like smaller guards. Michele and OG just absolutely out of their minds as stretches in that run. Like all of that stuff is still here. And the nicks are going to be one of the better teams in the Eastern Conference. They just might not be the number one Eastern Conference team with a bullet that we were talking about in terms of our preseason power rankings. Yeah, it's, it's like they just, you don't want to downplay, you don't want to underplay because every single year when a team wins a title, people, unless it's just absolute carnage and devastation in terms of who's available or, I don't know, there are certain caveats or history, like in 94, 95, it's like, well, Jordan didn't play. So it's like those rockets titles, they still count the same way. It tends to forget the circumstances that you won. So you don't want to downplay and say like, okay, well, now that everybody's healthy back in the East, I think it doesn't negate what happened, but I do think that it shrinks some of the margin for air because they don't have as much superstar separator talent as, of course, you say that and I'll just turn right back. It's like, they do have two of them. So it's like, I don't know, it's, I guess it's just, I circle back to, they don't have as much room for error for guys to just not play well because the rotation isn't super, super long and they need bridges to kind of be who he's been and at least hit shots at a bare minimum. But we were really worried about like, what's the difference between that team coming out of the finals and what happened in the offseason and the team that we see now? I mean, one of the big things that we were really worried about was like the rebound rate and things like that. And so far, man, I mean, they've kind of been right and stride with who they've been. We haven't seen much of a drop off at all. That part has been totally fine. I, it's less a personnel issue and more of like a flow issue, more of a connection issue, more of like who is doing what and what roles and when and some of that calibration just isn't like totally locked in in the way that we've seen the best version of the next beat. But I think a lot of this too is like the way we talk about champions. I think is still maybe a little behind the times where you come off of a season like the Knicks had and yes, you've earned the benefit of the doubt and they get a lot of it coming out. And it's just like, okay, what would prevent them from getting back to the NBA finals? When the reality of basketball and specifically the NBA in 2026 is what are you going to prove to get back to the NBA finals? Like the idea that you are going to repeat as an Eastern Conference champion or an NBA champion by default, it's just not what we've seen anymore. Like the trials are totally different, the sustenance of a two, even a two year run going to the finals and competing for a championship again, basically unprecedented over the last decade or so of NBA basketball. And so this is kind of what we're raising here, I think, is not the idea that the Knicks are a bad team or a flawed team or doomed in any respect. But the probabilities just don't favor the Knicks making a full on return run in the exact same form. And if they're not going to be in that exact same form, what are they going to do differently? Where are they going to evolve? Where are they going to change? I think it's very easy for them to tap into a better flow of their offense just by virtue of getting comfortable with the season, getting into December, January and have like that muscle memory kicking back in again. Also if they hit threes consistently with any, like in any stretch of the season, they're going to look better. Like they shout really well in the bulls game. But other than that, really have not had like the long range options dialed in at all. And so if that's there, a lot of these games look better. A lot of these outcomes look better. They're going to be better than than two and four. I just don't know that we should take it as like any kind of assumption that they're going to be right there at the top of the pile and they're going to have to earn it even if they do. I think that's the fairest way to put is that they're going to have to earn it because there's this isn't this team doesn't have that for an NBA champion. I think even Knicks fans would say this too. They don't have that inevitability to I've always said they don't have that inevitability factor that you see champions get at some points where it's just like we got to, they are coming no matter what we have to usually that's driven by like the highest of the high super stars. And as good as Jalen Brunson is and as much as he's grown and cats playing out of his mind. I don't know that he's quite in that tier of inevitable like this person is just a force of nature. He's very, very good. It makes me think that we talk a lot about the book being out on a team and we, and you know, I think it's a combination of you're not surprising anybody. Everybody is circling that game on the schedule. They played good teams in the early going except for the bulls that we mentioned before they got down to the bulls. I think it's a combination of that and some of the things that they tapped into in the playoffs in terms of playing through cat, you know, you're circling back around and you're playing through that teams have more stuff to, they're more taped to game playing for more time to think about it. And I think some of that's going on all that to say, um, I still think that the nicks are going to be fine. I'm not worried about him. This is going to be a really important month for them, not because there's nothing on the other side of November, but like if you look at the schedule, there's good competent opponents, but not a lot that feels insurmountable. And so the idea of like, oh, you play Cleveland a couple times, you play Toronto a couple times, you know, you're popping to Atlanta or like, you know, good Eastern conference foes who are like tune up opponents, I think for someone of the nicks caliber. So I think on the other side of this month, we're going to have a pretty good feel for what their regular season process is going to be how, not how seriously they're going to take it, but like how, how like aligned they are in the particulars of the highest levels of nicks basketball. And right now that's not there, but that's okay. I want to kind of sling to a different part of the league, though, because the nicks are striving for everything that there is to strive for, right? You've already won one championship. You've said a high water mark for New York basketball as we know it. But what of Kylai would ask of you Sacramento basketball as we do it? Um, new one and what a smooth, smooth whip from from geographically also, but then also just what a vibe shift, uh, I don't that was that was masterful. Well, you say it's a vibe shift, but is there is a cuff going bananas for a couple of games, not the equivalent of a King's championship? Is that not the best thing that has happened to the King's in quite some time? And I say that because, you know, we, we've taken our shots of Darious a cuff on this pot as far as the volume of shooting. If you did not listen to our live show, let me remind you, he's taking more shots than any rookie in the history of the league. As of today, sticking more shots than any player of any kind in the NBA, dude is getting his, but he's also producing in such a serious way and we're coming off a week where he's been just wildly productive since we did our last show, scoring, assisting, creating at an incredible level for a rookie. So the premise for believe it or not purposes that I want to put to you is this idea that Darious a cuff as we know him as we are seeing him now is a legit offensive engine. Do you buy that idea? Well, I wanted to start by saying that you mentioned the shots and things like that. And I set the goal for myself before this podcast of saying I was going to watch every one of Darious a cuffs field of gold temps, even through this point in the season. And I got into it and realized like I didn't have to. time for that. They just was not enough time. There are a lot of them, but we can get to the patterns that showed up. But I mean, the Kings right now are 29th in offensive rating. So if you're asking, you know, I guess the question of, is someone in offensive engine and are they in offensive engine that's going to lead to winning? Those are the questions that we're working through right now. I think that Darius has the potential to be in offensive engine. You can't write anything off obviously because Brunson is a similar score first guy of that size with that kind of a build. It's very, very early. Do you want me to say something wild? Do you want me to work through this like in a resort and like a, or do you want me to be measured in how I come at this? I think we've been two measured so far. So like, let's, let's get the takes off. What are you feeling? On a championship team, I, I don't think that he's a primary, like a, like a Helio center of an offense. Everything comes from him. I don't know that that's the best archetype for him. Do I think that Darius, and I've always thought that? Do I think that Darius A cup could be a part of a winning team, a playoff team, a championship level team? Yes, he could, but I don't know that I see what I watch him the way that he likes to play. I, I worry about him being the guy who creates an advantage initially. Like we were just talking about with Luca and, and going to the buffet of options of like spraying the ball to his teammates. He's a good passer. He's a smart game manager. Yes. I don't know that he's going to have access to those reads as much or the vocabulary as a passer to do those things. I think he's, my, my thing that I would throw to you, Rob, is I think he's probably more of a lilyard type than a ball screen operator the way that pick, pick your ball screen operator, your wizard, like a, like a, like a hell of a, like a, like a, like a, like a Nash type CP3. I think he knows how to throw him, you know? Right. I think he's probably more lilyardy to me at this point. I think he's definitely more lilyardy by type. I, I would be a little surprised, like this is, this is super early. We're talking rookies. These are high thresholds. The, the Damien lilyard benchmark is very high, right? Like being that kind of player to any franchise, much less one for the length that he did, even just going on like a miraculous Western conference finals run. Like that's an, an incredible achievement, especially for a guard and a guard driven offense to do. There are parts of Darius Acuff that are clearly going to be baked in that are undeniable. Like this dude is going to get him up clearly. That is not an obstruction. And I, and for a smaller guard coming in, that is a thing you have to prove, right? Like, can you create space? Can you get to your spots against NBA level defenders and NBA level athleticism? Asked an answer. Like that is not the issue. The question with him, it's becoming clear in these early days is like, is he going to be the end of an offense that allows other people to participate all that much? And the passing, I'm glad you brought it up. Very good passer. Like, I think the New Orleans game is a great showcase of this, not just because he was racking up assists, but you look at the feeds. Like, you know, finding guys on the short role, working the dribble handoff game with subonus, finding bigs on duckins, like getting precious to Chua, like in rhythm, in motion, sprang out to, you know, like really finding the full assortment of what you want as far as like point guard distribution goes. But he's not that guy all the time. And he's not wired to be that guy all the time. And so I think the, the gap between where he is now and being a guy who is like running a top 10-ish offense on a regular basis, a lot of it's just going to be like, do you want to do that stuff? Like, do you, do you want to be a slightly more balanced player who yes, can get your shot, can get 30, like pretty easily given the volume and the touch. And he said, the ball in his hands more than any player in the league. I think short, like short of Jalen Brunson, which there's going to be a lot of opportunity that comes with that. But I just, I'm hard pressed to look at everything that's happened, even with crazy production. And you hear reporting like Tim McMahon had on the hoop collective that demonis subonus wants out of Sacramento, not revolutionary knowledge. I think it's something we're a lot of us were anticipating at some point. But you also watch if you'll allow me to indulge in my own body language, doctrine. If I'm even allowed to do that, I don't have a degree on the wall or anything. The gesturing that goes on in Sacramento from desperately open teammates who are wanting the ball to come anywhere in their vicinity is not great. And by extension, Darius Acuff, every time he gives up the ball, frantically waving his arms to get it back as soon as possible. It's like, we just have to relax in every possible respect and play something that resembles a little more just like natural actual basketball than it is like, yes, you can showcase what you can do in the way that the kings have allowed Darius Acuff to do. This is really more of a quote. This conversation is going to annoy me. I predicted this before the season because I knew it was going to come down to the real hooper inclination of people just talking about like his ability to score. His ability score is not in question. And I think this is where these conversations always tilt towards something that doesn't resemble basketball to me. This is more about process to me with him. And you know, when you're a young guard, I'm going to come back to it again. Like the flow of an offense in the NBA has to be sane and fast and decisive. And when you're sticking to the ball, like I said, we know that he can score, but him getting off of the ball, I think, and knowing when he's done his job is one of the hardest things for a guard to do. And when you have such limited time in a college clock, you could kind of meander and work through. And there's a lot of room for error because there's just more time. You look at him just sticking to it a little bit too much. I mean, for a guy that can pass, Acuff passes per direct touch 0.322. That's 22nd percentile in the league. Assist the usage. He's 22nd percentile in the league. This is a guy who's just leaning scoring a little bit much. And I just don't buy into, I mean, people are just like, oh man, the rest of the King's roster is just totally buns. It's like, if you're if you're going to be a game manager, an NBA roster in an offense is a greenhouse with several plants that you need to water those plants so that they are blossoming and happy and green at all times. Because if you don't, you end up in a situation where guys aren't cutting his hard guys, just aren't doing all the little extra things to make it work. And I just don't buy into the fact that Keegan Murray is incapable of hitting an open shot. I don't buy into the fact that mulee is not. No, I want Keegan Murray to be good. It's ever means to be seen if he's ever going to be the kind of shooter we saw in his rookie or ever again. Well, if you want to continue to drain some of these confidence, like look him off and only catch the ball on a like end of a possession kind of a thing, they're capable, guys. Is this going to be a great basketball team? No, spoiler alert. No, it's not. But I just, I don't buy into the fact that these guys are so incapable of being involved. And I mentioned that like knowing when you've done your job, I sent Rob like, I don't know, 10, 6 to 10 screenshots of Darius getting to spots. I joked him in theapolis. I know I'm going here, but I mean, like, he just needs to know when he said his job and get off the ball because we know he can score, we know he can pass the ball. He didn't need to be a home run hitter. I just think that's the biggest challenge for Darius right now. This is the thing. Like when we talk about what is the alternative here? I think it's, I think it's pretty ridiculous to look at the Kings and say, oh my god, their offense could be so much better. Like they should really tear this up and do a totally different model. They should run everything through demonisabonis or whatever. Like, yes, you could probably optimize your way into being the 24th best offense in the league instead of the 29th best offense in the league to absolutely no end whatsoever. My problem is not Darius Acuff being in a decision, in a position to make decisions. It's the way he's reading the floor and what you're prioritizing as a franchise, as a coaching staff for Darius Acuff himself in terms of what his progression is as a player. It's like when you think about the early omens of who a guy is going to be, to me, the clearest thing that is like night and day, you see it. It's either there. It's not is like, how do you read the game? How do you process what's happening around you? And it can improve like your, your ability to see what is there or how quickly it develops. Obviously, that's going to get better over time if you put in the work to do it. But guys have certain inclinations and they have certain natures. And I think that's the part of this that's been a little discouraging even under the circumstances is just seeing that like he, he, he, he sees the read like he, you can't pass that well and not see it. He's just actively choosing to not give a shit about it. And that's okay. And it's going to get you a lot of points and it may make you a certain kind of pro and successful in a certain kind of way. But like, this is a young player who plays a lot like a young player. And I'm, I'm eager to see a version of Darius A cuff that like has a slightly different appetite that has a slightly different interest that is a little more involved in, yes, the Keegan Murray project or whatever it may be as far as like, how do you lift up the people around you? And if you're going to talk about and throw out a name like Damien Lillard, that is what your job is, right? Like Dame came in as a rookie, hot shooting start stepped into a starting role was really good right out the gate. And there was clearly like a miscommunication between him and Lamarcus Aldridge that led to their split. And I think a lot of it was like not quite knowing how to communicate with each other, right? Like having to learn on the job, what it means to be a hot shit point guard on a team that has a lot of veterans. I mean, like, there is some of that, not that the kings are like, jonesing for to monosibonus to stick around or whatever, but the idea that there are natural points of like friction that come with these sorts of situations. And Damian Lillard over the course of the next, after the Marcus Aldridge left, three, four years of his career became an incredible communicator and leader and a guy who, yes, would shoot a lot. And yes, was one of the highest scoring guards in the league. But you asked any role player on that team and like, they were invested in his success in a way that that requires a lot of buy-in and a lot of trust and a lot of communication. And that's kind of what the uphill battle is for Darius Acuff is you're going to be this sort of player. You have to find other ways to get buy-in from everyone around you. And it's easier said than done. I'll put it that way. Well, I wanted to address the, the subbonus part of it to your first is, you know, he's being accused of not being a generous teammate here. Subbonus is leading the league and in rebounding right now. So that's a byproduct of those shots going up. So call himself is, but really he's setting, he's setting subbonus up to hit some rebounding eyes, hit or two unseen. But no, I think that the glass half empty, half full thing here is half empty. You mentioned the sort of, I've choked, this is like the most douchey nerdy thing ever. But the true foe, the, uh, friends, while do foe foe thing of, uh, of, uh, a filmmaker shows who they are in the first 100 feet of film, Rob. And, uh, there is a world where you want to be pessimistic. And, uh, I only know that quote because I included it in the rookie guy a couple of years ago, where it's just like a guy, the conversations about a player early on 10 to kind of be the recurring conversations who they are when they're young at the, that's kind of who they're going to be. If you want to be pessimistic, you're like, all right, well, we're going to just be nitpicking this for a long time. Trey Young went through a very similar thing. The half full part of it is we keep bringing up Damian Lillard. Damian Lillard was fucking 22 years old when he came in. Very true. I'm that you're talking about that was way further along. So it wouldn't totally be fair. The other part of this is, I'm going to talk out of both sides of my ass here, not my mouth, where I'm just saying, I repeatedly talk about how I want young guards to just fucking be, I'm swearing a lot. I call just my dad for swearing on the live podcast that I'm going to do better, dad. Anyway, I want these guys to be bad and learn. And that's what we're watching. That's what I'm going to say. That's what we're watching right now. And it's within him to figure this stuff out. So if you're going to compare him to Lillard, I think you got to be fair. I will be fair to him in this situation. I just think I joke about him getting to his spots. It's within him. And you mentioned it. It is within him to figure these things out. And I don't think he's like a dumb, bad, poor taste basketball player. I think no, he knows how to play. He's an excellent game manager. He was incredible in college. So I think this turbulence is going to figure itself out hunting the scoring a little bit much. It might be the case that he bottles his cell created stuff and uses it contextually. The way that Brunson has kind of learned to where it's like use that stuff when it's time to be a closer. Well, especially it is dazzling already. What he can get to the ease with which he creates. Like how many guys in the league would would kill to have that kind of skill set would not just the opportunity, but the ability to maximize from it the way that he has. Like I don't want to take any of that away at all. And I just want to be really clear that anytime a guard of his size comes in, we are asking them usually to walk an impossible tightrope of you have to have this like world beating, Napoleonic like perspective and energy to even make it to the league as a smaller guard, much less be successful in it or be able to score in it. So you have to have that kind of confidence behind you. But then we're also asking you to read the game and occupy a more traditional role or like play, you know, approach things slightly differently from a different perspective than what got you here in the first place. Like all of that is, I think, totally fair way to caveat, not just his first foray into the NBA, but our criticisms and other peoples of it. The question with him is the same with every young player, which is like, what do you want to see next? What do you want to see once you get the initial glimpse? What is the next step? And I think the next step for Darius Acuff is like a little bit of self-consciousness about the effect of not just what you can get to, but what that does to everyone on the court with you for good or bad. And if he shows that, if he kind of learns from that and starts leveraging it, then he becomes a totally different class of player. And I think that's why we talk about him this way. And I think to your point, kind of why the conversation lingers in that place is like, it's so clear that he could be any kind of guard he wants to be. He could be one of the best guards in the NBA, certainly offensively. I mean, we're not talking about defense and it's not a coincidence. Why? But as far as I come up, I mean, it is a disaster zone on that side of the ball right now, but he is reeling off points. And I think clearly has shown the capacity to be a really high level offensive engine for a long time. I want to see kind of what he does with that information, right? Like once you know you can get yours, what do you, what aims do you take from that point? And I think that's going to tell us a lot about who he's going to be in the first couple of years of his career. I just like to see some more pitching catch from him, which is that back to the Lillard thing. Like just staying on the ball, you can't be that level of on the ball. And then also be that level of bad on defense. It's just like one of these things has to go. You can't keep them all. So I could see that stylistic shift. And if you wanted to play that way, so bonus is a great guy to go to school with on that front because he will pass the ball. So we'll see, but I don't know. I don't even know. You know, I was thinking to Rob, do you think the Kings are just thinking we were coming into the season ready to build our offense around Ben Simmons. And then he went down. And you know, now you're taking shots at world class basketball player/fisherman Ben Simmons. Not taking shots of Ben Simmons. I'm saying I wouldn't put it past them to playing their season around a guy who hadn't played in literal years. But shots, Ben Simmons get healthy. But shots, Ben Simmons. I don't know. I don't know what they came into the year. I don't know what their plan was. But it's rough. The most important thing they have to do this season is figure out who Darius Acuff is and who else on their rotation or like even the depths of their bench at this point, given where some of the young guys have ended up are going to be along for that ride. I want to turn to the project of a different team, though, of the Detroit Pistons, who had a playoff embarrassment after some playoff success. But we're really humbled, I think, on a huge basketball stage as far as super accomplished regular season team last year, laid out completely in terms of their weaknesses in the postseason and now have to reconcile who they are between those things. So the framing I like to put to you, Kyle, is that the Pistons, who I would like to remind you that the Sixers and the Celtics, two of the best teams in the East both have one loss of peace. Both of them are to Detroit. Are the Pistons a real threat to the top teams in the Eastern Conference at this point? Or I mean, maybe more charitable, are they simply one of the top teams in the Eastern Conference at this point? There are a threat to them, yes, on a nightly basis. Are they a threat in a series? I'm still leaning skeptical on that, but I don't want to pull the rug on them having a great season. I think it's possible. I still, I still had some problems with the way that they handled the offseason we can get into. I think there's, it's possible that we were misfiring on the way that we viewed them running it back and the options that they had to kind of work with the pieces that they that they did have in house. So I'm at the point where yes, I think they're a threat to them, but I still wouldn't say that they're, I still wouldn't make them like a finals level contender. Where are you? Well, before we even get to the virtues of the Pistons and the way that they've played, like let's lay out the alternatives because they do look like a bigger threat to me, in part because the rest of the Eastern Conference feels super unproven, super unfinished as you would expect early in a season. But even the things we thought we knew have not really panned out so far, the next case in point, right? Like the nicks have a lot to sort out before the playoffs get here. They're going to have plenty of time to do it, but they are not looking like they're in a great place right now. The Celtics and the Cavs, I would say both look good, but definitely beatable, right? Like they are, they're a team that an elite opponent could really challenge, could really push, could really topple. The Pacers are hurt, quiet Leonard is hurt, and therefore the Raptors are kind of ramp, you know, reeling with that. The heat are just like a waking nightmare on a daily basis. Like this is not a conference of world beating opposition. I would say the Sixers are clearly to me the best team of the East so far as far as what they've shown. Even they go down double digits in every game and have to come back and like claw their way back into those games. And so clearly there's some stuff that they're still processing as well. By extension, the pistons are like pretty solid and have like good feet under them, good principles, good systemic stuff. I want to get into what they're doing well, but I think for me, the biggest hold up is like all of the huge questions coming out of the playoffs. A lot of them stemmed from like having Jalen Duren and Sarah Thompson on the floor and what that does to your offense and how you solve it and what kind of shooting or playmaking or mechanisms you need to circumvent this kind of crowd. And Jalen Duren hasn't really played because he's been hurt. He's been dealing with this hamstring issue. And so like without him out there, you can answer some stuff, but you can't answer the biggest stuff, which I don't mean to take anything away from the trade start to the season, which has been super impressive. I want to dig into it, but it's like everything that is hanging in the air is still hanging in the air. Yeah. This is so So this is so interesting. I want to address the thing that I was talking about in terms of what I think I miscalculated in the offseason is, thinking that they were just going to straight up run it back, which is just pick and roll heavy, cade, and then you think about, okay, we need a pressure release from that, which is we always talk about a second score, a second, whatever it is. And they've auditioned lots of guys in that role. We saw Dennis Jenkins come in and play well. We talked a lot about how Tobias was the last, you know, lemons in the lemonade late in the shot clock. There it is again, just so he would score and produce and that kept them from bottoming out totally. And then their defense was elite. We knew something that I think they deserve some credit for is they looked at what they had and they saw like, okay, we have Duncan Robinson, who's still in the lead off ball player. Like catch and shoot movement shooter, we've got Kevin Hearder, we've got Isaiah Joe now. They have leaned a little bit into the off ball action in a way that that in conjunction with the fact that cade is really is really interesting combination of a player who is very comfortable playing as like a relocation catch and shoot it catch and play make. He's not stagnant where he just needs the ball in his hands all the time. I think that the combination of those two things when you have them out there like the office is just moving and churning in a way that I think I had definitely underestimated in the off season when I was watching them. And then that helps us our Thompson, who is an elite cutter and a pretty good connective passer. I to me watching them from the outset, the defense is really good, which we can get to and I have a theory about that. But initially, I think I underestimated how they could kind of rejigger what they have offensively. I think we tend to assume that anytime something remains like kind of unchanged or marginally changed, it's just going to become a more intensified version of what it already was. And so if it's good, then it's like, Oh, they're building with continuity. And if it's bad, it's like, Oh, this is going to get stale teams are going to figure them out. They're going to pray even more on these weaknesses that we all saw on the playoffs together. I think there's a degree to which that's true. But I think we didn't account for enough the ways in which like Duncan Robinson was still very new to this team, right? Like the idea of having even one shooter like that on the floor and what it could do and how you play off of it was still a work in progress. You're seeing him and a czar be tethered together a little bit in the rotation specifically for a czar's minutes in a way that feels super healthy for both of them, a czar is really good at setting up Duncan in that kind of movement in that sort of like offball orchestration that you talked about, which is, yes, when you come out of the gate and you want to run this action, that's great. When plays break down though, if like a czar's decision making on how he's reading and trying to get his way out of those jams, that to me has taken a slight step up, even though it hasn't really registered a lot of the numbers yet. And certainly their overall offense is no great shakes yet. Like they're still kind of figuring out how to execute at the highest levels of what they can be. But I think there's been enough of that kind of accumulation of little ways in which the offense feels more intentional and more connected. Like this is, they don't feel like a team that spent their summer in hibernation. They feel like a team that has been trying to manufacture other ways to score that are not just Cade Cunningham, high pick and roll. And the more that they have even those avenues, I think the healthier it's going to be, it just hasn't quite borne out yet as far as like a super, you know, productive humming offensive flow. It's all kind of like fits and starts right now on offense and their defense and their intensity. And honestly, their death to a degree is really what's kind of carried them to this point. Yeah. I wanted to cut. There's a lot of things there that speaking to the way that the off the off ball action is kind of creating a wrinkle before the dominant part of their offense that we we've talked so much about them just kind of hanging back and leaning on the, you know, kind of like a picture being like, here comes a curve ball or here comes the pitch that I love every single time. Here comes fucking do something about it kind of thing. They've been doing this thing where I've really broken my promise to my father. They've been doing this thing where they're doing this horns Iverson thing or just staggered screen where they'll start with Duncan coming off of a like a lateral staggered screen thing where he'll go to one wing and they'll kind of read the options off of that. And then that'll flow into a Cade picking roll. And that has given some teams some problems. I'm not going to act like it's been like 2018 warriors level sophistication, complication kind of thing, but it's added a wrinkle to it. That that to me has been really fun to watch. So there's that part of it. I want to flip to the defensive side though. I know. Let's do it ahead here. I have a theory about the pistons. I I'm coming back to the rules thing again here. I think that the points of emphasis have really benefited the pistons. Okay. Because they are hardest shit. It's true. This team is so hard to screen. If you watch them, a saw is unscrupable. I he just yes. He could slide under a closed door like he's so he's so bendy and explosive. I think he is the guy like I'm not saying you could ever put him on film and like take him to if you're a coach to your young players and be like do what a Sartonson does because it's genuinely impossible a lot of the times for other players to emulate. But he is the the single best screen navigation defender in the entire league right now. He's so slippery. He slides through every like run as many like elevator doors as you want. Like he will run through that gap every single time and still have the balance to continue to chase to block from behind whatever it takes like you cannot shake that man. And so it's so long as that is the case. They're going to have like a really strong defensive foundation. It's been cool to watch that even without Jalen Durin who I think is like a pretty solid rebounder most of the time or pretty solid defender most of the time and certainly a valuable rebounder a lot of the time like their defense just hasn't really missed a step like they've plugged people Paul into that spot Paul reads mobility has been super helpful. But like they go to Paul read they go to Javante Green they go to Ron Holland. Like they're just finding guys and rotating guys into the mix that allow them to not lose a single step in terms of that defensive intensity. So as far as like how you separate them whether from the rules or just like the physicality that they are bringing in a random regular season game. It's still at a super high level and I think what we say so far is like that's not really a solvable thing like that's not something that even when you know the pistons are going to play hard. It doesn't really help you when they're playing hard in a way that is uncomfortable that is consistent. It's like bullying you at the point of attack before you even get into your stuff like they're just going to be this kind of defense in a way that I don't think is like a regular season can't make. I think this is genuinely a skill. I think this is genuinely very hard to take away. I think it's genuinely playoff applicable. It's just not the side of the ball that I'm worried about. When you have to play offensive basketball ethically the pistons are just a pain in the ass. I think that's just a fact when you can't get rid of them. You mentioned Holland he's he's sticky and hard to get rid of too. It's just like I can just get away from me constantly and and he just plays with reckless abandon emphasis on reckless at times. The other thing too that is interesting is I just really wanted to take this moment. A min gets a lot of praise. You're talking about a you know a sergeant around screens and things like that. A minzy other guy that comes in mind go figure their identical twin brothers but a serge is one of the very few guys in the league that could step up and check Jaylin Brunson and do a good job. The next night guard Yannis on of the Kupo straight up. That's his assignment. I just that do need some he just needs to be praised. I just think it's it's an incredible thing that they have they have a legitimate generationally talented defender on the roster just want to give us awesome love and one that is so versatile not just in the matchups but the responsibilities of what you would want from a player like us are the way they evolve over the course of the possession who he can be as a backline help guy like I think one of the things about having him on a jail in Brunson type or any guard or any wing that might find themselves in the corner is like then it's our Thompson is your backline rotating defender and you just can't really get a better wing option for that kind of spot that then what you're going to get out of a star and so I think the idea that they have not just the elite. I want to say one of one but you're right the Thompson's really fucked this up for us like the one of two defensive talent that those guys are the one of the one of two defensive talent like having that is great. It's everything else to me that is like even more impressive about the piston's operation of like getting consistent buy in from all these other guys finding the right blend of like hard fought like heavy metal sort of personality as far as who they are as defenders like Javonte green probably like should have washed out of the league several years ago but like by force of will has turned himself into like the good kind of tweener honestly like the sort of like combo forward who is somehow like always up to the task of guarding almost anybody also versatile in his own right the shot is really kind of abandoned him since the season opener but that's neither here nor there. I just since the one game well but I mean he's he had those games even in their playoff run to like he will go off and hit shots on occasion but he is a bit of an either or premise as far as offense and defense. I just think he does enough offensively whether it's crashing the offensive glass cutting transition stuff like he will come up with enough random points to make his minutes worthwhile and that's just the case for so many of the supporting pistons right now. Do you think that we were off the mark? or fair with the John Collins worry or is it just I kind of think we maybe just like I said misfired on how much it was going to matter not that John Collins doesn't matter some might argue that he doesn't but I just yeah I don't think he's mattered in the same way just because of the way that they've shifted around they always had off-ball action as a part of what they did but I kind of wonder if just the way that they've kind of rotated I don't know whatever analogy just they they've repositioned the way that they play in a way that I think has minimized his criticalness to what they're doing or or is it just that he's just kind of who we thought he was? I think we won't really know not to be annoying about it in the way that I'm sure Pistons fans despise at this point but like until you get into those sorts of crucibles like they did in the playoffs were Tobias Harris all of a sudden felt like the most important player in Detroit Pistons history like those are the moments that John Collins is going to really struggle but to your point he has not really been in that kind of role for this team I would say to you know really right now he's just like you know a nice starter plug and play guy who is moonlighting as a small ball five for them in part because B ball Paul is starting and so having kind of consistent active minutes at the five is good enough from him at this point but he's not that important to the outlook of this team I think maybe we did focus too much of on that and not enough on Cade Cunningham is one of the best players in the world but Sir Thompson is still poised for incredible growth there's dramatic opportunity here in having a range of shooters to work with to go through some of the off-ball stuff that we've been laying out and I want to I want to make clear I say Joe isn't even shooting well yet like I like haven't heard her we'll see he's been like okay but he's also kind of been okay for several years now if that they're hitting threes at a reasonable clip that might over time start to budge the scouting report and change the book on them but really it's going to come down to like when they do get during back how does all of that work in conjunction how how does the defense of that off-ball action change when you have one more non shooter on the floor because Paul read even though you may think of him as like a you know a role playing big a supporting big like he's active he's hard to hard to keep in front of you you have to kind of account for him when he's screening and rolling and cutting through these actions like he's a real threat and Jalen Duran obviously is and can be too but they're just different in terms of their agility and kind of like the present tense nature of do I need to worry about that guy right this second one of the other byproducts I guess if we were talking about a SAR is just utilizing creating an offense that doesn't in with just like life begins or you know we live or die by this dead end of our offensive just like this guy catches it late in the clock can he hit a three or not I think you minimize some of those things when you shuffle in a player you got to shuffle in a SAR Thompson you can't live in those situations where it's like oh god he caught the grenade is it gonna explode or is it gonna you know it's I think they've done a good job and it's almost Rob it's almost as if the John Collins for Tobias Harris swap you know success or failure it's almost as if that was so obvious that they planned for it and avoided that being you know the thing that decided it's it's it's it's almost as if they saw this coming and they and alleviated those concerns that we it's almost as if basketball professionals knew who John Collins was is that what you're supposed so we it's so strange wow it's weird I didn't have the upper hand on them on that one I don't know yeah you you you raised something about a SAR that I think is is really sharp and really smart and so true like the psychology of basketball where I think about this all the time if I ever get like really in the weeds with a video game and you're starting to look up like game facts online and like really breaking down what's happening in the game to a granular like random random number generator kind of level and once you do that like all the magic is gone like all the mystery is gone you were strictly like gaming the spreadsheet that is baked into the game if you turn any supporting player into that spreadsheet like if you're able to just focus on and every possession feels like it is live or die what will the SR Thompson random number generator turn up if that's what it feels like you've kind of lost but if you can run enough action to disguise it if you can create the sort of like front for it that pulls away some of the attention pull some of the pressure diverts some of like the load bearing nature of all that from a SAR Thompson then all of a sudden you just get to not live and die with every shot but play out of those opportunities and it's just like I I think there really is a complete psychological shift in the burden of a role player and how it feels like they are stationed within a team if you can just get that other action going if you can be a little less predictable if you can have these layered options that yeah are Duncan Robinson or Kevin Herder or Isaiah Joe but it's not really about the players involved so much as like how much do you have going on that is not just what is this one random number going to turn up yeah yeah you're you're always going to to some extent have a trade off with the SAR where I know we talked about a SAR a lot but it's always going to be some cloak and dagger where you just have to create enough cloak to he is good enough to be a dagger with with his athleticism with his cutting with his finishing and things like that you know and and that's what they're doing right now and they're going to run up against teams that are going to be able to switch those actions and just kind of deflate some of the advantage that those things create you're going to hit those roadblocks at some point but they played some good teams they're personallyign offensive rating it's at the very least a feel good story here in the early goings of this season before those other problems that ripple out from this start to be start to be asked well and is it human in itself being a feel good story after being a feel good story I mean they feel like a pretty legit team they feel like a pretty legit threat but Kyle I think we did it I think we made a legit podcast is what I'm getting at you know you and I separated really found the truth in all of this really I think ascertained exactly what is going on in the NBA at this point in time and then caveat it and hemdenhaw to talk our way around all of it somehow yeah I'm glad you said hemdenhaw because my mom said humminhaw and I adopted that mistake and people correct me on it all the time so good for you for saying that correctly as you always do Rob so you wait so can you tell me just like really quickly about like you went to a Phoebe Bridger's Halloween concert oh yeah really give me yet other information on this well I mean what was the deal where people just crying is this I imagine people at Phoebe Bridger's concerts just get together and just weep you guys just is a weeping therapy kind of thing is like what is it see you joke but that is straight up what it is you know it's a cathartic experience no she's on tour right now I happen to catch her here in Los Angeles on Halloween so of course you know everyone is coming out in full costume and regalia really doing it up big uh I'm not going to lie to you it was maybe the best show I've ever been to no exaggeration like whole stop incredible highs lows surprises emotional like I think anyone who who was there who has been on this tour could probably attest to that especially if you catch on particular dates given the guests involved but uh look I'm not going to pretend to be above it it was a magical experience IT's who IT's because I like Phoebe Bridger's and I I told Rob I don't know if I should be offended by this or not but I told him I'd been going through her cataloging that I like strangers in the Alps obviously you know reference to that but and Rob said that's the most calm man of her albums it is I just wanted you I just want you here and now to tell me what the actual hell that means Rob Mahoney it's a real you know when you hear it kind of thing but it is easily the most like pre-production stripped down early version of her voice and artistic sensibility before everything kind of takes off and takes a different shape so I just think it's true to who you are that you would be a stranger in the Alps guy and for the record like beloved album incredible album it's just the most Kyle man won possible you're saying I'm snooty about productions which I would I would never say that I would never say that into a microphone I would never say that on a podcast Kyle I love working with you I love podcasting with you I have only good things to say about you and to thank and about our producer Isaiah Blakely whatever you may say about his production at the live show or otherwise I think Isaiah does a great job I think Victoria Valencia does a great job and he's here with us today Ben Cruz thank you as well just and get well soon hopefully hopefully we'll see you out here potting with us shortly but you know if not we will soldier on and make up new bits and somehow reinvent ourselves all over again Isaiah knows I'm kidding and Victoria I would never I would never besmirch her at all even jokingly so I would I would jokingly besmirch Isaiah because I know we we're cool like that but anyway now they're the best they're the best well we'll save all the future joking besmirchments for a future pod and come join us on Thursday we'll figure it out together 41 plus in present and select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas star casino or 18 plus in present in DC or Wyoming opt-in required bonus issued as non-withdrawable profit boost tokens restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wage or amount see terms at sportsbook.fandal.com gambling problem call 1-800-gampler or 1-800-my-reset call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland hope is here visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8 hope NY or Tex hope NY in New York for Louisiana call 1-877-770-7867