Belgian GP Preview: Not That Kind of Spa

BBC-podcast on suurin katsotaan jälkeen. Kato? -Amen nähdä, mitä sä teet? -Vuokrasinkkodin. Oho! Sujuu kuin Sato. Vuokraa elämäsi koti. Satopistetti. Meille akria elänvakuutuksessa on tärkeää, että lemmikillesi on mahdollisuus parhaa sen hoitoon. Elänvakuutuksessa on tarjoavat sopivan turvankaikenlaisiin tarpeisiin. Sinä valitset vakuutuksen laajuuden, me tarjoamme maksuttaman etä elänlääkäriin, sekä nopean suora korvauksen klinikan kasalla. Luöllisää, akriapistefi. 5 live, Formula 1. Hello, ja hii! Täällä, että peljön grompi. Täällä on tärkeää, että on tärkeää, että on tärkeää, as we arrive at the legendary SPAR Frankushon for Round 10 of the Formula 1 World Championship, - kun in the midway point of the season, - - we're still not entirely sure how many races we have left to run. Either way, I've brought in the big dogs. BBCF1 Correspondent Andrew Benson - - and former Formula 1 driver, Jolian Palmer - - to bolster our defence. Jolian, Andrew, welcome along. Palmer, Weekoff, Since Silversten, well rested. Jep, 3,00, today. Very well rested, actually. You've shaken off my malaise of last night, and I'm pleased to focus on Formula 1 again. I think we all are Benson, same to you. Happy to focus on SPAR, now. Good travels out there. I had good travels here. I went to Scotland in between the two races, actually, but it's about as far as North as you can go, so that was nice. Lots of driving, which of course is going to be more of this weekend, although just not by me. Although I am staying in Leage, so it is quite a lot of driving for me. Yeah, that is a thing about SPAR. It's always a fair drive to get into the circuit, isn't it? Now, I've not warned you about this, but can I start up front please with a memorable SPAR moment? I mean, Jolian, surely it's got to be that Formula Pappa-Maudi win back in '08, right up there. You know what? That was a great win. It was classic SPAR, teaming with rain, and I led Jack Clark start to finish. I think controlled it was a great race. But I had my best ever qualifying in Formula One at SPAR. 2017 was seventh quickest. Didn't count for anything because my gearbox broke in Q3, but I was in the zone, as they say, Harry, and then my car took me out of it. But it was a good weekend until then. And where's Jack Clark these days? Jack Clark, he wasn't with me in Formula One, so he was there on the sidelines when after. It dusted himself off after his bruising defeat in 2008, and nine years on, he was my trainer, Fizio in F1. Well, if you can't beat him, join him. Yeah, exactly. Benny, how about you? SPAR moments, and I suppose what makes this place so incredible? Well, SPAR moments, I think the standout once, probably in 1998, you know, that chaotic race, an 11 car pileup at the start, Schumacher crashing into the back of David Koolfard, Damon Hill winning Jordan's first Grand Prix, that was just the most amazing race, but there's been so many, and this place is just. It's like a cathedral of motorsport, isn't it? It's one of the places that every Formula One driver talks about as one of the greatest circuits there's ever been. The challenge has been neutered a bit this year with these new engines, unfortunately, but it's still SPAR. It's still got this incredible flow, the, you know, Mark Weber used to say that a lap of here was like, "Pel, are you going somewhere?" You know, it follows the contours of what used to be actual roads, the landscape is shapes the circuit. It's just a terrific Grand Prix weekend. Yeah, well, we'll come on to some of the challenges that the drivers are expecting for this weekend later on. Before we get properly stuck in, though, let me quickly run you down the driver's standings. After nine races of the scheduled 22, Kimi Antonelli leads the championship 179 points to his name. Now, though, only 25 clear of George Russell. Lewis Hamilton sits third and Charlotte Claire. Off the back of that victory at the British Grand Prix sits fourth ahead of Lando Norris, who rounds out the top five. We'll also hear from his teammate, Oscar Piastri, who sits sick in the standings. And how he says the team believe they can still compete for wins and even the championship will also be debating whether Formula One could be bringing back refueling. But before all of that good stuff, F1 has had a week off since the British Grand Prix last time out. Charlotte Claire, getting that first victory in nearly two years. Jolyann, it makes it four different winners in the last four races. Amidst all the criticism of Formula One since, well, day dot of this year, that on paper makes F1 look like it's in a pretty good place right now. And I don't think you just need the paper to tell you that. I actually think that the regs have been criticised to some lengths, to other people think they've enhanced the racing. What I would say is a lot of the races have been really decent and the wins that have come about. We've had some epic tussles at the front of the field. And I thought Silverstone was a good race as well. Obviously, LeClegg got the win, and Tonelli was a bit unlucky. But when you look back through the recent races, a lot of them have been played out really well. Canadian Grand Prix particularly was an amazing fight. You had Russell's win then in Austria, where he was a sort of a closing battle that never quite came to it right at the end. Yeah, the whole way through, it's been pretty good. Andrew, would you agree? It's been a funny season, I think. I do recognise what Jolyann says. Yes, there have been some interesting individual races. But as a championship season, I think it's struggled to kind of develop an intoxicating narrative. You know, Russell's travails in the first part of the season ended up with Tonelli having a big lead. OK, that's been cut in half pretty much by his issues in Silverstone, where he didn't score any points because of the penalty that he received later in the race and the problem with the wheelfaring that dropped him down the field. But, you know, he's still in command of the championship. And Ferrari, like they might challenge, but it's still too early to say McLaren and Red Bull meanwhile are having a tricky season in various ways. So individual races, yes, have been interesting, but I think the season as a whole is struggling for a narrative for me. It really? Well, I mean. We've got a 19-year-old championship leader that's coming of age, beating the incumbent driver there, George Russell. This is going to be Russell's season, and Tonelli's grabbing the bull by the horns. On the other side, Andrew, you've got Lewis Hamilton winning a race back with Ferrari, nudging, nudging for a chance to have an eighth title. You've got all the narratives in the world. Well, yes, again, I agree with all of those things and I was going to qualify it by saying if of course the Antonelli story is compelling and what a driver he's turning out to be. But I was. All I was talking about, Jelene, was the actual championship fight itself. It almost felt like it had gone away from anybody apart from Antonelli before the season had almost got going. Of course, within the context of that, you have the fact of why did that happen. Some of it was bad luck for Russell in the early races, but you're absolutely right. The other side of that is that Antonelli has basically been out performing him on a pretty consistent basis all year, which is interesting in itself. And of course, the Hamilton Ferrari Revival is also an interesting story in Hamilton's first win. But I just mean in terms of the actual championship battle itself. Maybe it's going to turn around, maybe through the rest of the season, however long that is, are we at the halfway point or not? We could easily be this weekend. It could change, but it's looked like Antonelli's championship to lose for quite a long time. And that's what I was. That's the context for what I meant. But you could have said the same about PS3 this time last year, could you not? Absolutely, which is exactly why I just said it could turn around. Well, look, I think there's. For all those reasons, there's some good narratives and storylines. But there is this constant need now, isn't there, for entertainment and a show? At every single round we go to for things to start well and finish well. Obviously, at Silverstone, we ended under the safety car, which is never what we really want to see, but it's happened before, and it'll know that happened again. It's a bit disappointing, though, for us, isn't it? For people at home too, or those who've paid a lot of money to be there in the stands, they want that show. But something like that, Jörleann, is that always just going to be a kind of characteristic of Formula One that we have to grin and bear, or could we genuinely do something about it? Well, I think there has been a move to do something about it. I think, if you look through the history of Formula One, this is something that happens in all levels of motorsport. It's happened for years and years, ever since the safety car came in. There has been a push in the last few years to try and get races finishing in racing conditions. And with that context, I think the FAA and the race director made a bit of a mistake in Silverstone. I think it was very easily there, so either red flagged the race, but actually they could have had a one-lapse shoot-up behind the safety car quite easily anyway, I think, if they had managed to get the lap cars going through a few seconds earlier. I think it was a mistake. It was a shame because it was the biggest crowd Formula One's ever seen, so it was a tough weekend for it. And with Russell left out on some use mediums, it was sure to be a bit of a shake-up. But hey, that's how it goes sometimes. Yeah, Andrew, could genuinely, though, could something come in like is it Indy Car where they just let the lap runners dry through the pits and they get they fall to the back that way or rather than all the lap runners having to do another lap around just let them fall to the back of the pack it would speed things up and give us more than just you know a potential one lap shootout. Well look you know all these questions arise because a set of circumstances has been created which hasn't really happened exactly this way before the most the race that was most like this was Abu Dhabi 2021 when the desire to finish under green flag conditions overroad the rules and the race director decided that he was going to invent what that was the right thing to do and of course the controversy from that still rumbles in Formula One now it's the first thing that people refer to when there's any kind of safety car scenario so they set out to follow the rules in Silverstone and they did follow the rules and the rules have been created over several years many years since the safety car was first sort of introduced around sort of early 90s they've kind of evolved organically and Formula One's got to a point where this is the best set of rules that they've been able to come to with all the compromises involved to this point but Jullian's right within the rules there was the facility to stop the race and have a one lap shootout or a free lap shootout or four lap shootout whatever you could argue that if a car crashes on lap 48 of a 52 lap Grand Prix if I've got my numbers right there and it's a high speed crash at high speed corner the the race director knows immediately under the current rules you've not got a chance of getting the race restarted so if you want a green flag finish which everyone in Formula agrees is desirable you have to decide right then red flag the race because if you don't it's going to finish under the safety car better that they followed the rules but Jullian's right they could have followed the rules and still had a race to the end but they could have actually done that with a safety car as well I think that was that we could all see it coming because I think the Marshalls actually did a pretty good job to clear the staff and car in time so then you had the field closing up behind the safety car and it was literally down to about two seconds Charlotte Clare had started his penultimate lap and by regulation the rule that you're referring to is then by the time lapt cars may now overtake you then have to do another lap before you can restart the race so the FIA have said it was a software error but they wouldn't have let the lap cars overtake if they didn't intend to restart the race you just finish it with that and you know there's no need to display that message and get cars going around at racing speeds again so they must have intended to restart there was one lap to do it they were just simply a few seconds behind the curve of doing it and for me it was a mistake from the race director from from Rui Marcus who I think it's done a good job since he's been in that post but that one was was one that he was just behind the curve of restarting the race so is that is that just saying okay it was a mistake we can still have you know entertaining finishes with the late safety car we don't need to do anything drastic like change the rule well of course you can and you know it was it was there so as soon as for staff and crashes you either have red flagged the race or you think you can get it going with the safety car and I don't think it was ridiculous notion for them to think that you can have at least one lap maybe two laps of racing behind the safety car and as I said I think they should have done that the thing with the red flag is it mixes up the race so dramatically especially with the starts of this year so you you bring in a complete element of randomness for a one lap shootout which we saw a couple years ago didn't we in Melbourne when there was a one lap was it a two lap shootout in Melbourne and a lonsome tangled in the astamartin and was since spinning out and then and it was it was basically a mess whereas for me the the better way to do it if you've literally got one or two laps is get it racing under safety car because that's where the drivers have earned that position if George Russell benefited by staying out which he did he'll then have to pay that price on one lap and get get really defensive rather than have the free luxury of changing tires so everyone starts on a on a fresh soft that would my preference would be to be honest to do the safety car and still get a good a good lap of racing but either way they're both they're both decent options none of which were taken and no well we'll have to see what happens when that arises again if it arises again I'm sure it will and actually the other thing we thought we'd get a lot of and we alluded to it at the start of the pod and the show is that yo yo racing is a thing this year it's a term people are coming up with we thought we'd see that a lot of Silverstone which when when one driver uses that electrical energy to boost themselves past the driver ahead and then becomes immediately vulnerable straight away as they've used up all their battery it didn't feel too bad in Silverstone but are we yo yoing this weekend in Spa there's a lot of downbeat chatter coming out of Thursday so far okay well first of all didn't feel too bad let's just analyse that as a statement for a minute obviously there are different opinions as to whether yo yo racing is good or bad some people like the fact that there's place swapping for several laps so then in terms of Silverstone there was some yo yo racing particularly in the early laps and the drivers have been talking about it today in Oscar Piaestry was just saying in his news conference a little while ago that those first few laps of Silverstone the concentration levels just to not crash with somebody was so intense because everybody was using their battery levels in different ways at different parts of the circuit because there were sort of like five straights intersected around the circuit where you could between which you could recharge the battery a bit spa's different there's two sections of long straight line mode areas so that's where you open the wings they there are they are bisected a little bit both of them by the wings coming down again which in Oruj and around Blaschymorl but fundamentally you drain your battery from Las Orcs up to up to Lake Calm and then you recharge it through the middle sector and then you drain it all the way again from fan stavolo sorry to the bus stop chicane so the drivers have been saying they don't think there will be that much yo yo racing here because everyone will be on the same energy management strategies now for some people that would be good because they want to see genuine racing and if you're going to overtake in a non-yo-yo way in other words where you don't have a charge offset then that's more like real racing but the downside of it of all of that and the way spars layout is is that it means the middle sector is nearly all done without using battery power so that's like with just over 500 horsepower rather than a thousand horsepower and that's going to diminish the challenge especially around a corner like Poo-on which is probably the most demanding circuit corner around spar these days because Oruj has always been an easy flat for a long time there's going to be a recharge zone or as Fernando Alonso would put it charging station for the car and a lot of people would think that a corner like Poo-on shouldn't be that informal one but Jolyn do we just need to kind of accept that this is part and parcel of what we're seeing now in Formula One I mean Gabby Borsuletto was saying something on the lines of it is what it is we just got to adapt and get on with it I think that is the case isn't it I think when you see certain corners the challenge being diminished is not what we want to see definitely it cops it's obviously in the drivers the teams were still setting up their energy deployment and the cars so they could be on the limit or really close to flat out through cops so it was still a great challenge Poo-on we will wait and see it depends I don't even know if it will if it will be easy flat out because it's a downhill there's still be a quick approach and the cars have got less downforce this year so we will see if it's if it's easy flat of course that's a shame you want to see you know the great corners still be great corners in any era of Formula One we'll see I mean that's the that's a good point the Jolyn makes it's still the so that everybody went into the weekend saying it was going to be dreadful and actually it wasn't as bad as they thought in terms of energy management so it might you know you might find when the cars get out there tomorrow and into qualifying that it's that there's more variability or that this recharge situation isn't as bad as some people fear but we just have to accept I think with the engines as they are at the moment that there are going to be certain circuits where you know energy is an issue and monster is going to be particularly bad for that for example and so is back who or bad is again it's a subjective term isn't it because it has it comes with some of what other people some people argue are benefits but that's where we are at the moment before we head into the weekend and see exactly how the teams are going to operate their strategies let's talk title now it's one of the narratives the big narratives that Andrew's getting really excited about following this season what title and to nellie's title and to that one yeah that one because I mean look when you look at it ahead of Barcelona and to nellie's lead at what the top of the standing 66 points going into this weekend it's 25 points that's a race victory all it takes is for another retirement for Kimmy and Spa and a race win for Russell and they'll be locked on the same amount of points as we approach the summer break with one to go I that is enough to I think get get the appetite wetted but do you also think now when you look at the narratives this new era has seen way more reliability issues up and down the field than I think we've seen in the last decade really Formula one cars have been pretty much bullet proof so do you think this is also something now a real factor that not only we're going to have to watch out for Andrew but the teams are now going to have to be hot on is looking at this championship and it being decided not only from actual outright performance but from the reliability side too we definitely has there's no question that these new engines have introduced ability challenges and especially for Mercedes. And that's really twisted the championship battle warmware and another, you know, Russell's retirement in Canada. That was what we don't know exactly the point swing, but it meant he either didn't finish first or second and Antonelli got a clear 25 points on him. Then you had Antonelli's issue in Spain. So McLaren as well have been particularly badly hit by that and we're seeing the evidence of that with Lando Norris' grid penalty this weekend, which because he's used too many batteries. Now I've been hearing that these reliability issues as well as impacting Mercedes actually already in terms of championship points. It's already looking like they're going to exceed their engine allocation for the season. That's the factory team because the engines aren't doing enough mileage. So that means grid penalties down the line if that turns out to be true for both Antonelli and Russell potentially. So there's a lot of racist to still run, a lot of reliability problems to come. Mercedes has obviously been working on their engines to try and fix these issues that they've been having with the batteries across all their teams, but they don't know for sure what have they've done that yet. So lots of jeopardy on that point as the season moves into its second half in the next few races. Jeopardy on that point, Palmer, but also when you look at pure performance driver to driver looking at the Mercedes, Kimmy Antonelli is quicker than George Russell. He would have won Silverstone, I think, if he hadn't, of retired. So what has George Russell got to do? Where is Russell struggling? How can he actually get this championship momentum swing back his way? Oh, you find sheer speed is the biggest problem for Russell. The headscratcher forum is how he's going to do it. Russell's an interesting case because there are laps in his weekend where he is bang on the pace or setting the pace. So if you take his last lap in Austria, is a great example of a driver that was struggling a lot through qualifying and then on one lap out of the blue when he most needed it, absolutely nailed it. Okay, the yellow flags were there and he dealt with it, but he had so much pace in hand that he still took pole position. The same was true. Another perfect example was Canada where he took Sprint pole, that was normal. And then in qualifying, the pace just left him and he was down struggling. He was looking like he was going to be seventh on the grid. And then his final lap, he pieced it together and went pole. And it transformed his whole weekend. The problem he's got is the consistency of extracting that performance. So number one, you'd say he's not getting the tyres in the right window. This is the classic thing of when you have the grip, you can use the grip. When you don't, because fundamentally a lot of the time the tyres are not quite coming in in the right window. So they're not up to temperature for the start of the lap or they're going at the end of the lap and you're not feeling grip from behind the wheel. When that's the case, you're scrambling around and you don't understand why. But for Russell, it seems like it can't just be that because it's week on week, track on track, different compounds of tyres for different races. And I was speaking to some of the guys at Mercedes at Silverstone last time out. And they were sort of saying he's not just not that comfortable with the car on the edge. And he can do it at certain point. But a lot of the time he's sort of reaching a lower ceiling with the car. And in the race when you're having to do that lap on lap, his lower ceiling is holding him back a little bit. So that was their feeling on it. So George has to kind of understand how to punch through that and be happy with the car at 100%. Well, a happy hunting ground, potentially this weekend for George Russell where he's got his first podium, albeit in rather strange circumstances in that race that wasn't actually a race back in his Williams days. To come back though to the reliability thing, as Andrew was mentioning, Mercedes and their engine customers, so that's Williams, Alpine and McLaren, have had a fair few failures to do with the power unit. One team that has particularly been affected alongside Mercedes has been McLaren. It's cost the reigning champions points and they sit third in the Constructors Championship. Now, I mentioned at the top of the show, we'll hear from their driver Oscar Piaftrey, compared to this time 12 months ago, 2026 has not been good to them. But without a grown pre-victory and their drivers Andrew are fifth and sixth in the standings. Add to that, the rumours of Max Verstappen joining will not go away any time soon. How has it gone wrong for McLaren this year? How have they ended up where they are? Well, as a combination of circumstances, basically, I think they put towards the end of last year, they put probably more effort than they would have liked into the championship fight because Verstappen was coming back at them hard in the Red Bull. At the same time, they've admitted that in the design of this year's car, the original design, they took some wrong choices, followed some wrong aerodynamic philosophies, which then took them a few races to work out that had happened. And then having done that, they needed to work out what do we need to do next. And that's why they're out of sync on upgrades, if you like. So Mercedes, for example, had a big upgrade package in Montreal, Ferrari had one around about that time as well. McLaren had one in Miami, which was their best race of the season, Norris should have won that race, by the way. The only reason he didn't win that race was because Mercedes kind of messed up on strategy. And their next upgrades, not coming until the next race after this one, which is Hungary next weekend, actually split over Hungary and then the next race in Zanvort. They hope that that'll leapfrog them back towards the front, but they don't believe it will get them to the front. So that's fundamentally what's happened to them. And then of course, they've also been affected by these reliability issues. And on top of that, they've not been able to get on top of the Mercedes engine as quickly into operational terms and energy management terms. And that's incredibly complex. And the complexity has a direct impact on competitiveness as Mercedes have. And I think McLaren behind the scenes, they're being careful about how to put that publicly, behind the scenes, there's a bit of dissatisfaction about that relationship and how that's going this year, which is giving them some pause for thought for the future. Well, last week I did catch up with Oscar Piaštry at the team's factory in Woking and asked him to sum up their season so far. It's definitely been up and down, that's for sure. I think, you know, obviously we've not been as competitive as we would have liked so far this year. And the competition is very, very tough. People are bringing upgrades left, right, and centre. So we were trying to as well. But the rate of development, obviously, in the start of a new regulation is pretty intense. So a few highlights. I think Japan, Miami, were strong for us as a team. Some definitely more difficult races. Obviously Melbourne, China, Canada as well was pretty tough. So tail of plenty of emotions so far. You said it's been tough, obviously. 12 months ago, very different story, fighting for the championship at this point in the season. Does it make it harder to deal with last year now knowing the machinery you've got this year isn't quite there for a title challenge? Not necessarily, no. I think the lessons from last year still apply to now. And we're not fighting for a championship at the moment or we're not fighting for wins, but we're still fighting for the team to try and finish as best as we can. We've seen it before from us, that we can turn things around really quickly and there's a massive belief that we still can turn things around this year and be able to fight for wins and try and fight for the championship still. We've still got a long way to go. So we're trying to stay optimistic on that front. But yes, definitely, it's not quite as straightforward as it was last year. Now, Oscar, I have to ask you, we're getting into silly season in terms of the driver market. There's a lot of noise, a lot of speculation, particularly around Max Perstappen and McLaren. How do you deal with that noise yourself? Would you welcome somebody like Verstappen and the team or when people are in the rumour mill, are you able to just put it to one side and focus on the job? Yeah, for me, just trying to focus on my job is the main thing. I know that I'm here for the next while and I know the team happy with me. I'm happy with the team and the relationship is good. So for me, that's just noise and not for me to deal with. I'm trying to stay focused on performing as best as I can. That's the biggest thing for me, you know, let the others have their fun and do their talking. I know that I'm here for the next while. Oscar Piaestry wasn't giving me much in that. But I mean, Julian, for Stappen and these rumours, they're failing to go away. He seems to be asked every weekend at the moment, how do you think this is all going to play out? I think for Stappen would love a chance to get to competitive machinery again. He's a driver that is in a relentless pursuit of performance, whether that's himself or his team. The question is, where can he go? And the doors seem to be shutting around him. So McLaren is still a potential option. The big thing was that they announced GP. So Max for Stappen's race engineer is going into a leadership role in the McLaren team for 2028, which may get pushed forward to next year if they can strike a deal. And that's why everyone's tongues are really whacking about the chance of Max going to McLaren. But it doesn't seem like it's going to happen from everything we're hearing. McLaren are happy with their drivers, the drivers are happy with the team. They're off the back of a championship where both drivers perform really well. I think they're still performing well with the car they've got. And it seems like the Stappen is most likely going to stay put. But it's a bit like the Mercedes issue from last year, isn't it? All the talk this time last year was Russell or Antonelli, which one's going for the Stappen. And that's now been kicked over to McLaren a little bit. Andrew, your whispers up in town, the paddock. You've got contacts everywhere. What are your sources saying? Well, it's definitely the case that the Stappend management have had some conversations with McLaren. And it's definitely the case that he's looking around. Now, you know, Oscar Piazdri was asked today in his news conference, can he confirm he's driving for McLaren in 2027? He said, "I didn't realise it was a point of contention, but yes, he's got a contract, so is Lando Norris, but so is Max the Stappend, by the way." He's contracted to rebel till the end of 2028, but there's a performance clause that means he will be free. Should he choose to be later this year? So of course, he's shopping around, but there's a bunch of questions for him and for McLaren, aren't there? But fundamentally, he has to decide where's he most comfortable, where is he going to be most, have a biggest chance of being competitive? The obvious place for that right now isn't McLaren, it's Mercedes. Those rumors have gone away, but every contract in Formula One is negotiable, so not quite sure why they've gone away so much, because of the Stappend's also been talking to Mercedes. It just hasn't come out as much. As for McLaren, of course, they're happy with the Astrian Norris, they're both performing very well, they're both extremely good world-class Formula One drivers, but they're not Max for Stappend. And McLaren are in a situation where, for the first time, having proved that you can win a world championship as a customer engine team, they're now in a situation where they're thinking, actually, there are certain circumstances where being a customer team does have its disadvantages. And if you're going to have those disadvantages, then you want advantages in other areas as much as you can. And there's one thing that Max for Stappend guarantees, and that is absolute top-level best it can possibly be, performance in the cockpit every weekend, basically. So if you're serious about running at the front of Formula One, there are people in McLaren pushing the argument, we should get the best driver, we absolutely can, and that's Max for Stappend. So I don't think it's resolved completely yet. I do think Jellian's right, I think he'll probably end up staying a rebel for next year, but it's definitely a live conversation. How do you see the Mercedes situation playing out then? Because this was all the talk last year, but it's died down, I think it's died down for a reason, but you're obviously not agreeing with me. You still think it's bubbling away. How do you see Max ending up there? I don't see him ending up there, actually, realistically, I think as I say, I think he's probably going to end up staying where he is, but the Stappend management have had talks with Mercedes. Now I believe that it's been indicated to them that Mercedes are most likely to stay with Antonelli in Russell next year, but most likely is not the same as definitely. So it's still an open question at the moment. But if we play that out, Mercedes is going to get rid of Antonelli for next year. Of course not. Okay, so let's say they keep Antonelli. Are they going to sign the Stappend to come in alongside 19-year-old, soon to be 20-year-old Kimi Antonelli? Well, as I say, they've been, it's been indicated to the Stappend to the Stappend that most likely Mercedes are going to stay where they are. So no is the answer. Let's say even if Russell left, the thought of Russell would leave if he's not going to win the championship, and he's feeling like the team is galvanising around Antonelli. That's what history tells us about team dynamics. If Russell leaves, it's because Antonelli is most likely the champion. But what you see is that this is probably not enough for him to make that decision, right? Agreed. I don't think Russell will leave, but that's the only hypothetical because we both agreed that Antonelli stays. And in that hypothetical, I don't see a chance that Total Warf is thinking, okay, we've got a 19-year-old Italian that's absolutely tearing up this year. I know. Let's bring in Max for Stappend alongside him. That makes no sense. Completely. And then you've got the McLaren situation, whereas does it make sense from the Stappend's point of view to go to McLaren? But the question in his head is you raised the question of Jampier and L'ambienzi already. That's one reason for him to go. The other thing is that Red Bull have been struggling with inconsistent balance now for two to three seasons across a regulation change and the same things fundamentally happening this year. So of course for Stappend is going to be asking himself, actually, is this the best place I can be? And then he has to ask himself, well, what's an upgrade? And I'm going to throw a question back to you. If you were McLaren, and Max for Stappend came to you and said, I've decided, I want to come and join your team. What would you do if you was Zach Brown and Andreas Stella? I'd take him. There you go. I would, but I'm not Zach Brown or Andreas Stella. And I think they are far happier with their harmonious to such an extent they kept them happy last year, didn't they? And I think that they are still happy. So I like to see a little bit more driver changes in Formula One. I like to see teams going punchy and like Ferrari getting Hamilton out of Mercedes. What a move. And now they're getting some reward out of it. But teams seem to be very, very risk averse these days. And you see Shala Clare signing another five years at Ferrari. These drivers are becoming lifers for their team. Yeah, I mean, we're speculating now. Let's be absolutely clear about that before I say this. But yes, Zach Brown and Andreas Stella liked the stability and the harmony that they had with Norris and Piazztry. Although there were points of the season last year when it wasn't that harmonious at times. But also Zach Brown likes a statement, you know, and he likes attention. And what's he just done in Indycar? He's just signed Scott Dixon because he wants to win the Indy 500. And that same Zach Brown, I could see him being interested in going, "Do you know what? I want Max for something in one of my cars. He's the best driver. What does that say to McLaren about McLaren and to their sponsors?" And also we should mention that the list of people leaving Red Bull since the winning days of Max there is like one of those receipts where you hold it open and it just drops to the ground, isn't it? I mean, it's endless. And then every, every so often, there's just another name that adds to the bottom of the list. So the Red Bull that exists now is such a far cry away from the four championship that they won. I love driver silly season. It has the potential to absolutely kick off or be a real dancer. But sometimes it's like England playing football, isn't it? Oh, you're ready for all action. And then just nothing happens in his, is a, is a last minute loss. Fernando Alonzo signs another one year deal at Aston Martin. Is that going to be the biggest news we get? Yeah, breaking news, contract extensions, strong and Alonzo's stay for 2027. Oh god, can't wait for that one. Okay, look, well, we could definitely chat about that all the way. We need to move on. Should just say, though, more pain from McLaren to have to deal with ahead of this weekend, they've already been given a 10-place grid penalty for Lando Norris' car because he has exceeded and gone onto his fourth power electronics this weekend. So exceeded element within the power unit there to try and, what to allow him to take the new element that Mercedes introduced last time out, Andrew. Yeah, let's just clarify that because there's a lot of jargon around Formula One. It's basically new battery. There's all sorts of, there's the PE and there's the Esme and all this nonsense, it's a battery. They've fitted a new battery to the car because it's broken too many of them. I think when Esen really complicated Harry by the way, they've got computers in them and everything. There's a lot of complicated. Yeah, that's just, let's just be clear about that. Andrew and I were in some comedy box for ages trying to figure out what an Earth Esme meant for about 10 minutes, a few weeks ago. Well, I was doing it again this morning, Harry. Right, it down Benson. We concluded it's like, it's a new battery. Yeah, basically, leave it there. Otherwise, it risked over complicating it. Okay, well, let's part batteries, let's part driver rumours there for a moment. Another rumor that keeps bubbling away as well is to do with engine regulations and where Formula One is headed for 2030 and beyond. Lots of talk about VA engines. And the fact we're tweaking the current regs to be more in favour of internal combustion over the course of the next couple of years. Jolene, is this an admission really from Formula One that hybrid engines electrification? It's not really the future anymore. Well, I think that is sticking with it for the moment, aren't they? They're just finessing the detail of how that power is actually being put out. Obviously, it's not been perfect this year and there have been races where it's been, there's too many areas to recharge and not enough electrical power to deploy all around the lap. So it's a tweak, but we're not there yet for completely reverting it. But it's, there's various people mooting it coming in for the future. Would you be up for it? Yes. Well, it's a driver. I'm old school. I like the idea of having just purely internal combustion engine, running on sustainable fuels and we'll go back to that. I mean, the last power unit era was was also great, wasn't it? You know, they were the hybrid V6s that we had work well. But I suppose, as you like, weight and size has also been a huge factor with Formula One cars. We dropped a bit of weight this year for some, it's still not enough. One of the heaviest parts of an F1 car is a fuel tank, particularly when it's full of fuel. And there has been a little bit of talk that along with the this kind of VA engine, maybe that could allow to bring back refueling in races. Is that a legitimate feasible option? Could we see it back? Well, look, Harry, we could do an entire podcast just on this subject. So I'll try and keep it short. All this noise is coming from the FIA President, Mohamed Ben-Saliam. Beginning of last year, he wanted V10s. That got kicked into the long grass by the manufacturers who quite rightly said, look, we haven't even started the new engine regulations yet. Now he's come back this year and said, I want V8s. He's not been, he's not been clear about exactly what he's given reasons, but he's not he's not been properly challenged on those reasons. He's not a bloke who likes to be properly challenged. And then the weight issue, the question from where the V8, Harry, is that the engine itself is lighter than the engine at the moment, but you have to start the race with nearly twice as much fuel, which adds, you know, so actually the weight, the combined fuel and engine weight of a naturally aspirated V8 at the start of a Grand Prix, would be more than the combined fuel and engine weight of these current cars. Now of course by the end of the race, it's less, but then they're also talking about the weight of the cars. And what I've been told is that Ben Saliem has given the FIA single seat to technical people a weight number that he wants them to hit, which they're not going to be able to hit basically, not just because of fuel weight and battery weight and all the rest of it, but also because of all the safety devices that are now on chassis compared to 20 years ago, like the Haylow for example, which has saved quite a number of lives already. The only way to hit that weight is to go to refueling, which means you can have a couple of stops per race and then you have a lighter car fundamentally for more of the Grand Prix. But we had, for more than had this argument 10 years ago, for more than one looked into the return of refueling 10 years ago, I looked up some stories about this two weeks ago and sent them to some of the senior people in F1, just to remind them of the fact that they've done this research, that the FIA technical department had been asked to do again, already a decade ago in the conclusion of that research then, was that the refueling era was the worst era in the history of Formula One for overtaking, so it was parked. Now why Ben Sirlion hasn't just looked at that research and gone, okay, let's not do that. I don't know, but there we are. So I've done a few shows for F1 TV, some historic look backs at old races. And whilst I am old school, those races with refueling, they are bad. And these are the sort of times that I grew up in watching Formula One, I was so enthused at the time, loved it. But they are just bad races. Someone stays out for two laps longer, they're running on fumes and they just go two seconds a lap quicker and come out ahead. It's like undercut on steroids. We don't need that again, surely. Okay, you've heard it here, you've heard the Palmer and Benson take on that and just about concludes us for our preview ahead of the Belgian Grand Prix weekend. We are out of time. So thank you very much, Julian. Thank you very much, Andrew. The race will get underway at two o'clock on Sunday and you can listen to it across the Five Life Network commentary of the practice sessions and qualifying is available on BBC Sounds. This has been an IMG production for BBC Radio Five Life. There's so much sport today, but all the goals as they go in up and down the leagues. This is Five Life Sports. It's all out into the lights and better than the floor. To follow him. It's not just up up. You know he's standing around the 18th green. Oh, he can't. That is sensational. He serves to the centre. We'll do it. 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