Being A Female Founder In The US Is Better Than Australia!

Michelle Baddersby, are you ready to get hearts on my rich? I'm so ready. I'm so happy that you're here. My purpose is to build products that better the lives of women. The company that you founded after a bumble was around women's bodies and women's content. You can post photos of your boobs on the internet and still be respected. Just because it's hard doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. We raised $7 million over three rounds. Think one of the most amazing things about selling a company. Isn't you feared pregnancy would destroy your ambition and slow down your career? What would you say to the same Michelle who wrote that? Motherhood clarified my ambition. I actually ran a poll on my Instagram and I asked, "Do you feel like having a baby? Would jeopardize your career?" And 86% of people said yes. Just knowing that so many other women were fearing, becoming a mom and felt like they had to choose career or motherhood, I felt like I had to be very loud about how I was navigating that. See, we have a new little cute addition into the room. We think the first baby to ever breastfeed live on a podcast. That's crazy. Talk to me a little bit about what it took for you to go from being that founder, entrepreneur, CEO to now going and being an employee of a company. Hmm. In case you missed it, you're allowed to be hot, smart, and rich. So let's get into it. Michelle Baddersby, are you ready to get hot smart rich? I'm so ready. So happy to be here. I feel like I'm going to try to not giggle as much. So I'm going to start with a question. I've been actually wanting to ask you since we've been friends. Okay. Because I get the sense that you're very much like me and you've very much wrapped your identity in who you are into what you have done, which is really, really, really impressive. You were the first person to launch Bumble in Australia. You're one of the top 10 employees at Bumble Worldwide. You sold your first company to FanFix. And most recently, you've become a president, the president of peanut at 30 weeks pregnant. But I want to start with uncovering the mission that you're on on a human level, like what is Michelle's purpose in this world? I didn't always know that that was my purpose. I, like many women, was kind of floating through my career, doing what I thought I was meant to do. You know, go to uni, get into a grad program, work in corporate, work my way up the corporate ladder. I remember sitting at my desk when I was about 25, wondering why people around me cared more about what they were doing than I did. And that feeling really bothered me. And it was probably the first time I realized, okay, I'm not actually passionate about this. This isn't maybe aligned with my values. And I really wanted to work out what my purpose actually was, what my passion actually was. And I think that initial discomfort led me on a bit of a journey. I think there's a lot of power in owning that you're not enjoying what you're doing. And that maybe you're not that passionate about it. But it can also be really unsettling because once you've admitted it to yourself, you've got to figure it out. And I had no idea where to look or what kind of career I wanted. And I ended up kind of, I guess by a series of somewhat fortunate events falling into this job at Bumble, which we can get into. But that was the first job where I just fucking lived and breathed it. I was obsessed. I was obsessed with what Bumble stood for with women making the first move. And I felt personally aligned with it. Like, I want to go out and make the first move in my own life. I want to put myself forward for the promotion, for the pay rise. I want to do scary things. And so it was that job that really just cemented for me. My purpose in life is to help other women. And the way I do that is by working on products specifically built for their needs and products that are providing solutions to everyday problems. Can you describe your childhood a little bit for me of like, why women? Why is that so important to you? I think it comes from I'm the eldest of three girls. So I've got two younger sisters. And I probably have that eldest daughter complex. Are you the oldest? No, I'm the youngest. Okay. Yeah, okay. I think when you're the eldest daughter, there is quite a lot of responsibility put on you. Not maliciously by your parents at all. I think it's, I think it's just natural. I've always felt like I need to set a good example for my younger sisters. And I need to help them in their struggles. I need to live my life in a way that they are like proud to see and live my life in a way that makes them feel like they could do anything. And so it probably comes back to that. But I also grew up in an incredibly competitive household. So I always get a bit scared talking about this. Because I don't want people to think my parents put pressure on me. But my parents were both the lead athletes. My dad went to the Olympics. My mom was a world champion. When you grow up with parents, like my dad has an Olympic medal, growing up and seeing that in your house, it kind of tells you you can do big things. Like it's amazing from that perspective. You feel like these big goals are really accessible and really achievable because it's right in front of your face. So I had naturally a very competitive spirit from the moment I knew how to compete, I guess. And I've kind of funneled that competitive nature into different things throughout my life. And it's very much funneled into career, currently. I love the language that you use where you're like, I don't want to see my parents put pressure on me. Is that pressure you put on yourself? Yeah, there's this weird thing. I mean, I've experienced on such a small scale, but it's affected who I am so deeply. So I can't imagine how it is for people who actually have superstar parents. But I felt like because my parents were so good at sport, I needed to be that good as well. And it was almost embarrassing if I didn't win. Not embarrassing because they made me feel like it was, you know, win or nothing. I just felt like at school, people would say, you know, that's the one with Olympian parents, you know? And so I felt like I needed to be the best. And so I was very into sport, like, got a scholarship to uni for rowing, got extra marks in the HSC, which is our year 12 assessment because of rowing, things like that. And I loved it. Like, I think I learned a lot from that first era of my life of being quite competitive at sport. It teaches you discipline, how to go through hard things, rowing was the sport. And it's not necessarily fun. You wake up at 455 every day. I used to train 12 times a week, but it's those sorts of things that have made me who I am today. And I'm very grateful for that experience. But I've definitely had to learn how to cope with failure as I've taken the career that I have. And it's really not about winning or losing. It's about what you learn along the way. And there's actually no such thing as failure. I've really changed my belief system recently. I used to view successes very black and white. And it's not at all. Is Breaver words you would have used to describe yourself when you were that young, 20-year-olds getting a job as one of the first employees at Bumble? No. I would say naive. You know, they say knowledge is power. And I believe that naivety is actually power. And when I was 25 and I took that first job at Bumble, I had no idea what I was getting myself into. And I think if I'd known, I would have been too scared. I wouldn't have done it. I wouldn't have thought I was capable of doing that. I ended up stepping into this job. And I had to evolve as the company grew and as the role grew. And I ended up basically becoming the face of Bumble in Australia. And I had to speak on all these panels. And I had to do all this press. And I would go and live TV. And that stuff was truly terrifying. And if someone had shown me on a piece of paper, this is what your job is actually going to entail. At the time I took it, I would have said, "You've got the wrong girl." Naivety is what led me to take that first step. Then it was actually amazing leadership at Bumble that I was exposed to. It was working with the founder Whitney Wolfherd and her really giving me free reign and autonomy. And being able to learn from the first, at the time I started, there were four or five women at Bumble in Austin. And Bumble was already successful in the US. It was showing great organic uptake in Australia. And that's why they wanted to start a team there. And so I could work really closely with these four women, including the founder. And they could tell me exactly how they'd done it in the US. And I basically got the playbook. And I just had to apply it to an Australian market. And even though I had no marketing experience, I was the demographic. I was the user that they were trying to attract. And so I just thought about, okay, where are the bars I want to go to? What are the brands I love? Who are the people I love? What are the calendar moments that get me and my friends out of the house? And that's how Bumble really started. And so it was that experience and being trusted that I think built my company. confidence. And that gave me the balls. Like a better word to then start my own company and to, yeah, be braver, I suppose. Was it intentional to build your personal brand? No. It was very scary, actually. I remember the first time I posted about Bumble on Instagram, I felt disgusting. I was like, "Because of why?" I just felt like, "Oh my god, I've got, you know, probably 600 followers that are all my friends." And now I've got this job at Bumble, and I need to start talking about it on Instagram. And do I just look like some glam-dart promo girl? Am I just like a promo girl in disguise? I don't know. I was really worried about the judgement, and I felt really icky. And I think, at all, I guess it's also as good advice for anyone with that first step. It does feel icky to start doing that. I think it is human nature to feel a bit cringe, to put yourself out there in that way. That is quite a universal feeling. One thing I love, a reframe for that, if anyone is feeling icked out by self-promoting. It's Adam Grant. Yes. He has this reframe, and it's, don't think of it as self-promotion, think of it as idea promotion. So it's not just you putting your face out there. It's actually like, "Hey, I'm working on this product, and I think it'll benefit you." Because of XYZ, tell me what you think. Hey, I've been working in this space, and I've come up with this unique insight. Here it is. And I think that reframe of idea promotion, versus self-promotion, is a very helpful way to think about building your personal brand in a way that doesn't ick, ick you out. But that building of a personal brand has ended up being almost everything for me in these scarier career moves. Bumble is what forced me to begin. It was like, I was forced to be uncomfortable and to put myself out there like that, and I'm grateful for that nudge. And then it was my Instagram that led to me talking about the fact I was founding a company, and I was going to start raising capital. And I had no idea that some investors were following me. And people replied to my stories saying, "Can I invest?" And that led to me going out and doing the first pitches, and us getting some of our first angel checks. And I think building in public, everyone says it. It is so important. And I think some people feel scared to build in public because they're like, "What if someone steals my idea?" Someone steals your idea. It wasn't that defensible in the first place. Absolutely. And it was probably going to happen sooner or later. And I think there's a difference between building in public and sharing your secret source. You know, you don't want to go out there straight away and tell the world what your secret is. You want to divvy around that and validate all the things that you have in the back of your mind. So I think you've got to be strategic about it, but it's so, so powerful, especially in today's world, from an opportunity's perspective. But I also think it's a bit of an expacter, like even if you're not a founder. It's an expacter, I think, when you go for corporate jobs, like, are you writing substacks on your industry? Do you have a bit of a footprint on LinkedIn? Are you sharing your work? Instagram feels like LinkedIn these days. Totally. It really unlinked in. I don't know what that feels like. You're not on there. How would you describe the evolution of your personal brand from Bumble to today? Oh, it's so different. Bumble came about in this interesting time where, you know, it was like the era of the flatlays. And no one was really talking about their job in this fun kind of glamorous way just yet. And we had access to so much money at Bumble. So we could do amazing things. And we had a really young team. It was honestly like a bunch of 25-year-old women throwing the funnest events, working with incredible people, speaking to women in a way they wanted to be spoken to. You know, there weren't that many women founded tech companies at that time. And I think it's very obvious when a product has been founded by a man. So it was very cool to have this bunch of women just be allowed to say all the things that were on women's minds. And so we made looking at Bumble look fucking cool. And it was. And that's kind of what my personal brand was about at that time. I guess looking, yeah, just like living and breathing the brand and getting our mission out there. Whereas now my personal brand probably has much more of me in it, like the essence of who I actually am. We have a lot of Australian listeners. So shadow to the angels are angels in Australia. One of the things that I often hear from our Australian angels is this tall poppy syndrome. And I think it exists anywhere in the world, but it seems to be very concentrated for women, especially in Australia. For someone that's listening to this, I doesn't know what that is. Can you describe what tall poppy syndrome is in Australia? Yeah, so tall poppy syndrome is a cultural phenomenon. And really what it means is if you had a field of poppies and one was to stand out, you would chop it down. And so in Australia, there is this sense that you don't want to stand out. You don't want to rise above the pack. And once we view someone as being quite successful, we will tear them down. It happens in other countries as well, smaller countries. And Australia has a population of some, I think it's 26 million to compare that to America. I think there's 22 million people that live in Texas. So it is much smaller. And so a lot of people operate with a scarcity mindset as opposed to an abundance mindset. So they think if that person is out there achieving this, that's one less spot for me. And so that is where it stems from. And it definitely does get built into your Canadian. Yeah, I think Canada has similar things where I think it's what leads to Australians being quite self deprecating. It's what leads to when you speak about what you've done. Even like me speaking about the growing stuff, just then it actually makes me feel a bit ikk. And I'm kind of wintzing internally because I'm like, do I sound like a fucking wanker talking about that? And like, you know, these, these, why? Because you feel like you don't want the attention on you? Yeah. Is it arrogant? But that's what I was going to say is so interesting, like learning about the household that you grew up in, right? Because you have two elite athletes, one of which one an Olympic medal that are obviously extremely competitive. Like we're the best in their country. What was your dad's word? Rowing. Rowing. Yeah. Whoa, pressure. So grow up in a hyper competitive household that was like seemingly okay to be the very best and then live in this cultural space where you don't want to take up too much space and too much attention. Like do you feel that you carry those two sides with you today? I do. Even coming into this interview today, my boss Michelle was like, don't like, don't do the Australian thing. Remember that it's okay to be proud of what you've done and the things that you've achieved are amazing and you should speak about them with pride. Like you don't have to shrink yourself down. Australians just tend to root more for the underdog and then once you're successful, things can turn. But there's a lot of other things that kind of contribute to that mentality as well. Like its governments, its systems, like there was this article that was recently written and it was titled Make Australia Ambitious Again. And I just really resonated like a lot of Australians do leave to go overseas because it can be easier to start a business to raise capital to exist in an environment where more people rally around you. And that is sad because there is also so much opportunity in Australia. Such a brilliant startup ecosystem. You've got companies like Canva and Atlassian that have come out of Australia. But you have to be comfortable with challenging the status quo in Australia, I think. Are you comfortable doing that now? Yeah. Did it take you moving to the US to do that? It actually took me starting my own company. I felt running my own company was quite a freeing experience and it allowed me to really step into myself more and form my own opinions on things. I think running your own company being entrepreneur, you have to be very curious. You have to have that student mindset and you have to be whenever you feel something, you feel like an intuitive tug and you're building a product, you need to challenge that and validate it. And I think that's a very good way to operate just through life is you know, you have an opinion, you have a judgment, where has that stemmed from? Is it an original thought or is it something that society has made you feel? I think Sunroom, the chapter of my career that was my own company, made me quite comfortable challenging the status quo. And I wasn't America for that. What is the difference between being a woman in Australia and being a woman in the US? Far back, I was going to get political. There are some big, there are some big political differences. That's what's a bit sad in a way because I have quite a love hate relationship with America. There's a lot about America that I really don't like and that I really don't agree with. And a lot of it is on the political side of things and that things are really regressing for women's rights in particular. I don't love that obviously to put it lightly, very lightly. But there isn't a ceiling and it feels like anything is possible here and there's just this balls in LA in particular where it feels quite you And it feels like culture is being created right at your fingertips, it's like right there, which it doesn't quite feel like that in in Australia. I think their Australia is like trumps America in so many ways. Government is kinder to people way better legislative protections for women, for employees in particular safe, beautiful, but because it is small. There is more of a ceiling. Michelle, that's maybe the hardest question I'm going to ask you all day. Oh, God. Why do you think I asked you here today? Maybe. Don't shrink. I know. I'm like, ooh. Maybe because of how I represent career and motherhood online authenticity. I like to just keep going talking, saying words about myself. I'm real. I don't know. Tell me, make me stop. I think because you stand for everything that HSR is like from afar and I've gotten to know you as a person, as a mentor, as someone that I trust very deeply and that has a really good heart, I think. You've done so many incredible things in your career. You've taken big baths. You've left your home. You've left your family. You've had to miss your sister's wedding for priorities in your life. You've had a baby. You've had two babies. You had a partner that is a professional athlete living away from you while you're pregnant. There's a million ways I could take that question and that answer. I think you embody everything that it takes to live a really brave life. You've been very brave with your decisions. I'm just wondering from everything we've talked about, it sounded like you were a little nervous to come to this interview. Why? It's a good question actually. I was thinking about this. I think a part of it does come back to the stage of life I'm in right now. I'm seven weeks postpartum and when you have a baby and you're in this postpartum period, which seven weeks is still really fresh, it is quite a vulnerable moment and even though I'm in it for the second time around, which I'm finding much easier than the first time, you still have a bit of a identity crisis. I think mothers and motherhood can often be like silence and diminished. In this moment, for the past seven weeks, I haven't really spoken to adults. I've been in my room breastfeeding my newborn and running off four to six hours broken sleep every night. I think that can often make you feel, "Am I good enough for this?" It's that horrible line of, "Am I? I'm just a mum." I hate that because I think motherhood is the hardest job in the world. One of the most ambitious pursuits. It's the most important job in the world. It's raising life. I hate that so much in society has made motherhood seem like it's less challenging, less worthy caregiving is generally looked at as a lower status. I just think all those stereotypes can compound on you when you're in that postpartum period and it can really rattle your confidence a little bit. I was scared coming into this because I was in that mindset of maybe feeling a bit weak, but it's so ridiculous. That weak is maybe how I feel in this moment because it's actually the most powerful thing you can really do and what I'm doing is so important. But there's just a lot of complex thoughts that go on when you're postpartum. Have you heard the word metressence? No. Basically, you know adolescence. So everyone knows what adolescence is and it's when we go from being a child into a young adult and where moody and where confused and the whole world knows about adolescence. But when you become a mum, you actually go through that again and it's called metressence. And I had never heard that word before I first became a mum and now that I'm aware of what metressence is, like the reason why I was scared is because I'm currently going through metressence. To boil the town. Yeah, to just like summarize it in one sentence. And it's crazy to me that like you're a smart woman and you've not heard what metressence is and neither had I. And I think if the world was more aware of metressence, it would make postpartum and becoming a mum make much more sense because it talks about all the psychological social and physical change that you go through when you become a mum. And there's so much going on in your brain at this moment. Like I'm currently wired to just be thinking about my infant, which is how it really should be. And so I've pulled myself out of my little metressence hole for a second to do this. And you do have to remind yourself who you are. Postpartums are very vulnerable period. And I think it's really important to surround yourself with people you feel comfortable with people that remind you like my boss did coming into this. Like you don't need to shrink yourself. Fix your nail. Go get your head on your fucking badass. You can do this. There's an amazing book about this called metressence. And it talks about the fact that, you know, we're kind of taught to feel like once where a mum may be where less than capable. And this, you know, there's a lot around this space that I've had to work through motherhood is in a setback. It is a super power. And it's led to me doing the most amazing things I've ever done in my career. But it took a lot of challenging the status quo for me to really get comfortable with that. And to back myself and to keep making like brave decisions, I suppose. If you want to place in 2026 where you don't have to worry about the algorithm or the charts, but you still want a profitable place to make money off of your brain and thoughts. Then we need to talk about beehive. It's a platform I've been using since 2023 that lets you start a newsletter, grow your audience and make money through a native ad network, paid subscriptions and digital products. All with a zero take on earnings. And that's where I went to turn my silly little tech talks into the beginning of my media empire. Beehive is now a sponsor of Hot Smart Rich. What started as a simple way to share my ideas became the place where I am my most vulnerable with my community, all of you, which combined with beehives built in growth tools like boosts recommendations and referrals has helped me grow 100% year over year. All while staying insanely engaged and connected to my angels. It's free to start has preset templates and an AI website builder to get your newsletter and website up and running so fast. If you want to give it a try, head to beehive.com/hsr for 30% off your first three months. But make sure you enter the code HSR 30 at checkout. That's B-E-E-H-I-I-V dot com slash HSR with code HSR 30. You meet a very conscious decision to always create and market products that involve women, but the company that you found it after a bumble was around women's bodies and women's content. The sunroom was a company that I co-founded and it was a content monetization platforms. We really wanted to sit in the space between only fans and Instagram. We felt like many more creators could be making money from their content, but it didn't feel like the right products existed for them. We went through a lot of validating before we dove head first into that. We surveyed every influencer I knew in Australia, I basically surveyed and asked them, have you thought about using only fans? Have you thought about putting your content behind a paywall? This was in 2020, so the rise of only fans, people were in lockdown, it was booming, Beyonce was talking about it in a song, and I was very surprised when all these creators were saying, yes, I have thought about using only fans, but I'm worried about how it would affect my personal brand. That bothered me, you know, that more and more women could be making more money, but this stigma is holding them back from going on only fans, I want to do something about that. So my co-founder, she Lucy Mort is her name, she was one of the first employees at Hinge, and she actually designed the Hinge product. So we came from these similar backgrounds, and we both wanted to keep having these big careers, and so we both moved to LA, we raised venture capital, we raised $7 million over three rounds, and we built this product that ended up paying out millions of dollars to the women on it, and earlier this year we sold it to fanfics. Which are very similar to us, but just winning, they were just winning, it kind of felt like if you can't beat them, join them. And so we worked on this acquisition for quite some time, where basically it was like the back end of the sunroom ended up almost being copied and pasted onto fanfics. So all of our creators could continue to make money on their platform, but we really, we ended up running a full M&A process, speaking to every single one of our competitors, speaking to social networks, speaking to creator agencies, and we were ultimately looking for where is a place our creators can go. creators can go and actually thrive even more than they've been thriving on Sunroom. And fanfics had just built out a feature set that was more sophisticated than ours in certain ways and in ways that kind of automated that process for creators because these platforms can be pretty hands-on. It's been cool actually to see some of our creators. One of the things we're really curious about is Will our creators go there and actually make more money. And I was just looking at a creator the other day who went for making 20 grand a month on Sunroom is making 50 grand a month on fanfics. So that's been really great to see. Okay, we picked a product that actually does have even more power than ours to unlock financial opportunities for women. So the content on Sunroom, my fans meets Instagram. So what type of content was allowed on platform? So what was different about Sunroom is that we actually created an app. So most of the products in this space aren't apps. Like fanfics is in an app. Only fans isn't an app. We wanted to create an app because we wanted to make it easier for creators to actually talk to their audience. Upload content on the go for people to get push notifications all of that stuff. Once you create an app, you were bound by Apple's content guidelines. So Apple don't allow any explicit like overtly sexual content on their products. Our differentiator when it came to Instagram was we were really sick of women's bodies being moderated in a way that wasn't fair. So like your plus size you show too much skin, your contents removed, your black, your contents removed, you're talking about childbirth, your contents removed, you show a bit aside boob, your contents removed and it's automated. So with Sunroom, we moderated with real humans. So we could actually allow women to show up and speak more openly about women's issues. So there was a lot of education around like sex, positive topics, relationships, periods, birth, things that are censored on Instagram. And we also allowed women's nipples. So we didn't view it kind of like free the nip built into a product. But that's as far as you could take it, it couldn't be sexual in nature, but a woman just standing topless by a lake. No worries. We would we would allow that. And so it was central, but it wasn't hard hardcore at all. And that's what our users loved. They wanted to find a place that allowed them to express themselves more freely. Then they were on Instagram. There are so many creators living in fear on Instagram that one next post will lead to them losing their audience. Like we had many creators that had lost Instagram accounts at like 50,000 followers because they'd spoken too openly about childbirth or because they'd spoken too openly about breastfeeding or boobs. So we wanted to solve that problem. So with the content, the sharpest content on Sunroom, it's not just breastfeeding. It's also just for creators that want to monetize their breasts. Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about that. Yeah. So I know what you want me to talk about. So I got this DM once from this guy. I had posted a bikini pic on Instagram and the DM said something like, I can't remember it exactly, but it was you're an exec. Do you think you should be doing, you know, do you think you should be posting pics like this? And it just really grinded my gears because I think again, it comes back to people wanting women to be one dimensional when we're many things. And this is what hot smart rich is about. Like you can be sexy until we still be taken seriously. You can be hot smart and rich. That is what I loved about Sunroom. And that's what I really wanted to embrace myself. And so one of the things about Sunroom was we actually built anti-screen shot technology and we patented it. So you might have been on Netflix or Hulu or something and you've tried to screen record and it won't let you to show you a black screen. We applied that kind of technology on Sunroom. And it was the first time that had ever been done to consumer uploaded content. And I always, and my co-founder, we always felt like, you know what, if women are going to open up more in our product and be vulnerable about all aspects of their life as well as charge a premium for that, we cannot have this content being pirated. Like that's one of the biggest issues with a lot of the other products. Is that, do we have the baby? So for some context, you see we have a new little cute addition into the room. Mr. Bobby, he is, we think the first baby to ever breastfeed live on a podcast. That's crazy. Which is crazy. So ChachiPG told me. Seven weeks postpartum, we wanted to normalize the conversation of women doing it all. So we wanted to have him join us. We need more babies in boardrooms and podcast studios. So he is us taking his step towards that. But he also doesn't take a bottle. So we have no choice. He must be with me at all times. Anyway, okay. And it's ironic that we're talking about me posting my boobs on the internet as I now breastfeed him. But I guess that's how I feel. You know, it's women's breasts have been sexualized when this is actually what they're meant for. They grow life, you know. And so I don't think women should be penalized for having boobs. And I think we should be able to embrace our sensuality and our sexuality. And I felt like if I was founding a product where women were going to open up more about themselves and share more of themselves, I needed to feel comfortable doing that too. I needed to back my own product, back our security measures, back our anti-screen shot technology. And it was an amazing moment because I made about seven grand that month from your boobs on Sunroom, from my boobs, which was more than I was paying myself a month at the time. And they're nothing changed. You know, I was still respected. No one looked at me any differently to my knowledge. I don't know why the why the team felt that I think I'm sitting here in a privileged position saying that, you know what I mean? Like that might not be the same for all women. But that's also what I want to help change. And so I think we need more people speaking about this and more people not being afraid to embrace every side of themselves. And I think that's what Hotsmart Rich literally does. Like women have been told you can't be Hotsmart Unrich, pick one, pick a lane. Oh no, she's so hot like she must be dumb. And then you realize they're not dumb. There I guess historically has been like jealousy in society has taught you that yeah, you can't be many things all at once. So it I guess was a bit of Hotsmart Rich of me to have to have done very Hotsmart Rich to be very brave of you, which is I think the reason I brought you on. Walk me back to the moment that you first press upload. Like how did you feel? What were you worried about? I actually don't think I felt that scared in the moment because I'd also been influenced by our creators. I'd been watching how our creators were showing up on our own product and how free they were and how liberated they were and how confident they were. So I was also made to feel real comfortable by kind of watching their lead. And I'd never really immersed myself amongst creators like that that was so wild and free in the past. So it was cool to witness a different group of women. So yeah, it was like I guess again, my opinions of things comes back to always being open-minded and kind of asking where judgment may stem from or why you may feel a certain way. And I yeah, I was made to feel comfortable by them and our product. And now it comes back to that famous mora line from Shits Creek where she's like take a thousand nude photos, you know, and you really should before you become a mom because your boobs can really change. So I'm very happy that I posted them on the internet and I'm very happy that I made money off them whilst they looked a certain way. And I have a great bank of content to look back on if I need to remind myself, which I don't really want to of what my body looks like before. Was there any investor pushback? No, because that's what they loved about our product animation and the fact that we were women creating this in a certain niche. This is a good question because it also comes back to when I first became a mom, I was worried maybe investors would judge me. Maybe they would they would think I'm less capable. But I think when you have a very strong mission, you attract investors that are aligned with that. It automatically weeds out the ones that would have a problem with it. When I think that's what having a strong mission does, it protects your brand from certain things. So yeah, we had incredible investors that love love that about us and the product. Why do you think society has normalised sexualising women's bodies to the extent that we have? But we still shamed the most biological process that they were actually made to do, which is breastfeeding. There's this book called erotic capital and it actually talks about the fact that if women were celebrated and allowed to embrace every single part of their sensuality and sexuality, we would just trump men in all aspects of life because men are naturally more. I guess, like, motivated by women's bodies in that kind of a way. And so that's why sex work and things like that have been so heavily stigmatised to limit us and restrict us. And I think that you can then feel that once you're in a corporate environment as well, like you might feel like you need to dress yourself down or, again, embrace every part of yourself. It ultimately just comes back to the patriarchy, unfortunately. But I think that, again, like podcasts like this, lines like Hot Smart Ridge, seeing women out there being many things all at once and not being afraid to shy away from every part of themselves helps to normalise that because, yeah, it just exists to restrict us, I think. So you sold your company to Fanfax, you're 30 weeks pregnant, and you announced that you're now the president of Peanut. Michelle, the founder of Peanut, she had come to you. You had reached out to her to be a consultant. Yeah. When did you disclose to her that you were actually pregnant in the process of interviewing? Yeah. So the very first conversation that we had, I was about nine or ten weeks pregnant, and I was having some complications. So I didn't actually know, I didn't know a hundred percent if it was going to work out. And so I remember sitting there feeling like, oh, I desperately want to tell her, but I just don't know if I should bring this up in this moment. And then I thought very hard about it because I used to give the advice to women that you should wait until you have a contract in your hand before disclosing that you're pregnant if you are going through an interview process. And so I thought hard about that and reached the conclusion that if I held onto that, I was perpetrating the stigmas that being pregnant makes me less competent or less desirable, which I know isn't a reality. So again, it's about figuring out like, why do you feel like you should hold onto this within this moment? And so the next conversation I had with her, I told her, and I also felt like, of course, I'm working for a FemTech company. So we should be practicing what we preach. But I think it's important to see representation to normalize it everywhere. But I also felt like if you're pregnant and going through an interview process, you also want to make sure that you are not going to end up in an environment that doesn't respect parenthood and isn't going to look after you once you're in the door. And I think that's what you might end up discovering if you do hold onto it. So it's better to be upfront and figure it out whilst you're going through the process because companies that don't respect parenthood and do discriminate don't deserve brilliant women. So those are kind of the things I was thinking about when I was going through that process. And when I told Michelle, she just responded in the most textbook perfect way ever, which is kind of what I knew would happen, but it just reinforced. She said, this is absolute, it makes you even more perfect for the role. She says, "Kismat is the word she used and was just really supportive, the whole way through." And you know, I stepped into the role, worked for two months and then I'm taking paid leave right now. And I feel very grateful to have this moment to have been able to secure what I would call is my dream job at 30 weeks pregnant, but then also to be celebrated for being pregnant and being a mom along the way. Like pregnancy should be celebrated and supported. Do you think that that works for any role at any company at any life stage though? Yes. And it's because stepping into this role at 30 weeks pregnant, it clarified three leadership lessons for me and they go beyond just the femme tech space. The first one is that motherhood is an accelerator. It teaches you resilience, empathy, compassion, ruthless prioritisation. I think organisations need to stop asking how to accommodate mothers and ask how can we learn from others because those qualities are so important for modern day leadership. So that's the first, the first thing. The second thing is that my lived experience is not separate to my work, it actually informs it. My strategy and as women it's incredibly obvious, as I said before, when a product has been built by men for women. So you need that lived experience to show up. It just deepens the product, it deepens your ability to gather supporters, not just users. And the third thing, we need representation. So we need to see motherhood at the table and in leadership positions. Otherwise we will continue to show women that there's a false choice between career and motherhood when there isn't. And I think those three leadership lessons should be applied to any business anywhere. You have been reported saying that you feared pregnancy would destroy your ambition and slow down your career. It would clarify my ambition. It channeled it in a way that it had never been channeled before. Motherhood does crack you open and it does change you because of matrescence. It's impossible to go through this and not change. You should change. That's like saying you're not going to change through adolescence. You know, change is inevitable, change is the one guarantee you will get from motherhood. But that used to scare me if I heard someone say that. If I had heard someone say to me, you were going to change tremendously through motherhood. I used to think change equal loss. It equal less than it equal less ambitious, less successful, less of a gun. It doesn't at all. The new version of you that awaits on the other side of motherhood is a version ten times more powerful than the version of you before. You just need to not be scared to embrace her. Like she's waiting, she's in a fucking do great things for you, don't be scared of her. And I think it took me a while to accept that. It actually took me about 14 months, postpartum with my first to admit I am different and I am not better or worse. I mean, I do think I'm better. Like I'll say, I'm not worse than the version I was before, like a lot of people say you'll lose yourself in motherhood. It's actually such a privilege to lose yourself in a way. You don't lose parts of yourself that you need necessarily in this next version. So I think to my former self, I would just say your ambition will be clarified, refined and it will lead to you making so much more intentional and purposeful moves than you would have had the guts to previously, like it upped my bravery in a way. And you will change, but don't be scared of that change. The change isn't negative, it's necessary and it makes you more powerful. Like motherhood again, it's a not a setback, it's a superpower. We just need to continue to do a lot of work systemically to allow women to like continue to embrace that and feel good about it. I think that's also why your story is so important for people to hear because you've also talked about the fact that you weren't even sure you wanted to be a mom. I thought it would hold me back and I thought that it would ruin my career. And many women feel that way and it's because we have been made to feel like we can have it all. We pursue these really big, bold, ambitious careers and then we get to a moment where we do want to have children and we feel really worried about what that will mean for us and because our identity has been wrapped up in these careers where we're worried about the identity loss. It will be penalized for taking time away from the office and I actually run a poll on my Instagram and I asked do you feel like having a baby would jeopardise your career and 86% of people said yes and there were probably 4,000 women that responded so that's like a legit survey. All be it. People will pay for that number. Yeah. Yeah. All be it. I do have like a curated type of audience but just knowing that so many other women were fearing, becoming a mom and felt like there was a choice there to choose career or motherhood, but I felt like I had to be very loud about how I was navigating that. What we really need is for society to catch up with us, like that is the biggest problem. Society has not grown, like the way we have grown, infrastructure hasn't kept up with us. Imagine a world where childcare is free and accessible and women aren't penalised for leaving the workforce to have kids. That would be incredible and that is what we need more and more people working towards and there are agencies waving this flag, you know, there are places in the world that have such better support for parents than we have especially in the US. But that's where the fear comes from because many of us aren't in safe supportive environments to pursue motherhood and a career at the same time and many of us are in environments where it doesn't feel like a choice. like you're being forced. one way or another because of how expensive things are or what your household can support. So there's a lot, I think, obviously, that contributes to women feeling like they can go after both things because it's not necessarily a question of can you do both at the same time? You can, but there are systemic barriers that make that harder for people. Talk to me about the dynamic between you and Belle and the support that he offers you to be able to have for all. I think it's really important if you are someone who wants to pursue your career in motherhood at the same time, you can't be with an incompetent man. That's what I've recently realized. You must be with a competent man. They can look after the kids just as well as you can when you're not there. You can't be with a man who's like, what should I pack? He settles better with you. I don't know how to do that. You have to be with a man who is going to step up and help you manage and carry the mental load and co-parent, not babysit your kids. So we have a very equal split when it comes to parenting and the household, he actually does more around the house than I do because I'm the one breastfeeding 20 to 24/7. I'm the one physically doing some things that he can't. So he does more of other things than me and that has really, really helped because both of us want to have bold big careers and you both need to be pulling your weight in the house in order to achieve that. That wasn't just automatic, by the way. He didn't just like step up and know how to do that. There were a couple of moments in the early days where the incompetent man card was played. And I remember thinking, no, like the resentment will build so quickly if this continues, like I can't, I don't want to feel like this again. And so I just called it out at that moment and it's never happened again. And he has just always been there, always stepped up. And I think if you're someone listening to this and maybe you feel like you're stuck in that cycle of a bit of incompetence being played by your partner, at the time I was figuring all this out, I actually saw a TikTok. And it spoke about the fact that you can't micromanage your partner. And as a mom, you're just wired. I think you'll be watching them do something and you'll be thinking, oh, that is not right. Do you know what are you doing? And this TikTok had a line and it was you need to let them struggle. And I'm so glad I saw that at the time because it just stopped me from correcting. Like, I stopped hovering, I stopped micromanaging, I stopped correcting. And I would say to myself, just let him struggle. And that meant that he learnt it all. You know, I don't think you want to try and be the expert on your children. Like you want to allow things to be done differently, feel comfortable with that. And I think that's really helped in me not feeling like I carry the mental load alone and that I actually have room in my brain to think about my job. There's this research study that shows that the first 1,000 days of a child's life is the most important, especially linked to the role of the father and of the mother. And I feel like we hear so often about what the mother's role is in the first 1,000 days of the child's life, right? Especially for the first at least 365 days, you're like breastfeeding to your point alone in a room with them 24/7, like, what is the context of your male partner's role in your child's life through those first 1,000 days, at least for your first child, Alfie, who's now 2, 2, 1 1/2 and obviously even just with Bobby at 7 weeks, like, what is the dynamic that he has? Because we don't often hear about that for fathers. I think once you add a second child to the mix, your partner has to step up again because you are chained to the newborn and right now, Bill is really managing Alfie 100% of the time compared to what I'm doing because I'm constantly with Bobby. But I also think, if we talk about this a lot at peanut, like, mothers in particular are constantly made to feel like they have to make the right choice, you know? You have to do everything perfectly and where judged and there is so much data out there and there's so much content online, you know, telling you what you should do and what's best. And I think at the end of the day, it really is about survival in those first, that first year in particular, and I think you really have to go easy on yourself and not judge yourself. Like I think about mum guilt a lot. I think about that word mum guilt and sometimes I get women DM me talking about how guilty they feel for returning to work and I wonder how society told us that we need to feel guilty for returning to work or that it's narcissistic to care about our careers. And I actually don't really feel guilty for prioritizing my work alongside being a mum. I know that means I spend a bit less time with my kids, but I don't think about time as the measure of my effectiveness as a parent. I think about being present and being the best version of myself and showing up as a quality parent and being there for them, you know, emotionally as opposed to how many hours of the day I'm with them. And so I think when it comes to the roles of parents, I think it's just doing the best that you the best that you can. And whilst the science might try to tell us there is the best way, there's really just your way and staying afloat mentally and physically in those early years. Are you attached to expectations? I don't think so. The reason I ask is because when you were pregnant with Bobby, your partner had to move away. He, professional athlete was playing in a different city and you had a pregnancy solo. Did you have an expectation about what that was going to be? I've always said I didn't have much of an expectation, but then it just slapped me in the face. I guess my expectation was that it actually wouldn't be that hard, which is jokes on me. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. Being a mom is harder than raising money and having my own company. I mean, my ambitions are harder, but like, it's just because that was just too easy for me to be honest. Like I'm sitting here, I'm 33 years old, like I'm at the very beginning of the height of my career, right? Like this is it. It's about to all start. And I've worked my fucking ass off since I was graduated, since I was even before graduated college. I've been a hustler and I'm hearing this word. It gets harder. Like it's already so fucking hard. I can't imagine adding another layer to my life to make it hard. So that word that all moms use terrifies me. Yeah. I completely relate to that because I remember when I was pregnant with Alfie, I actually reached out to a bunch of entrepreneurial women that I really admired and I basically tried to get them to tell me it's not that hard. That's what I was looking for. I was looking for someone to say it's not that hard and I couldn't get that answer for many of them. And now I understand why because it's like if what you're doing is here and it's hard, it's not like motherhood like slots in up here. It just like slots in here right next to it on the hardness level. So when you're doing two things that are fucking hard at the same time, it of course makes everything feel harder, you know, but I think you just figure it out. I don't know how, but we do just figure it out and you just get through it. And I suppose the interesting thing with motherhood is once you've been doing something that's hard like today, getting ready for this. I literally had Bobby strap to me, he's crying half asleep, I'm trying to feed him the clock sticking down. I'm like, shit, I need to do my hair, makeup, I need to think of a couple of smart things to say I need to get my head in the game. This is hard. You know, this is a moment where this would be a hell of a lot easier if I didn't have a newborn strap to my chest right now and no one around to help me. But by the time I got in the car and he's asleep, the level of accomplishment you feel, it's the different level to even how you feel about your biggest career wins. It just, it's like a warmth almost for for making it through. I never want to say something that scares people, but I also feel like the greatest gift we can give other women is to be real about what motherhood is like. But just because it's hard doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. It's hard to start a company, it's hard to raise money. It's hard to do what you're doing, but you're doing it anyway and you make it through each day. And like having a start up, I saw this line and it said having a start up is like being slapped in the face with a fry pan every day and just having to get used to it. And so it's like you are building skills that make it easier to be a mom in a way like context switching, I think being in a start up and being pulled in all different directions and being able to context which that helps with motherhood because it's like okay I can be at my desk focusing on this then I can hear a cry and best breastfeed and like I'll go straight back you know so there are definitely complimentary skills but it's just a different ball game I think being being a mom as well and I think women need to know that it's that it's hard and that like you go through matrescence and that you change and everyone says it's worth it you know and it is worth it and I wish we could get into the nuance of what makes it worth it but it's just kind of indescribable and the scary thing about it is you don't get it till you're in it you know so there's no going back but you just have to believe in yourself and that you will rise to the occasion like you've risen to the to the occasion in your career and it's also totally fine if you end up having kids and your priorities completely change and you don't want to prioritize your career anymore like there is so much power in that I think there's so much power in taking a career pause in working on different businesses like you'll probably have kids and you will unlock this entire other category of businesses that you will want to get involved in like there's so much growth there I think another really hard thing that a lot of people probably listening to this are considering is we've over glamorized this girl boss this founder mentality and it is so hard and there are moments where you realize like maybe this isn't the right thing for me I think it's a big fear for a lot of people to think about going back and admitting defeat going and working for someone else you obviously had a successful exit with your company so it's maybe not the exact apples to apples but talk to me a little bit about what it took for you to go from being that founder entrepreneur CEO to now going and being an employee of an company yes so I'm currently the president of pain art which I guess for anyone who doesn't know what pain art is it's actually the biggest online community for mothers in the world there's over five million women on it you can track your pregnancy growth milestones it has forums and when I was going through my trust since the first time dying wondering what the fuck was going on in my life I actually downloaded pain art it was how I made my first mum friends and to be honest you need that like companion when you're locked in a house for the past seven weeks like I have been breastfeeding and that's what pain art is for so many women so I think it's worth noting that context because in terms of transitioning out of running my own company and then deciding I was going to work for someone else it wasn't necessarily about am I going to continue down this founder path or am I going to be an employee it was the fact that I had allowed myself to embrace this new version of me so much I'd really challenged myself on where should my career go next I think one of the most amazing things about selling a company isn't what the outcome is it's actually the freedom it's the fact that you can really go anywhere afterwards that's what I'd always wondered at the end of starting my own company will I hold so much value I can kind of pick like the best next thing for myself so it was interesting to challenge that and I had just become obsessed with thinking about motherhood and speaking about motherhood and talking about career and the juggle and things like that so pain art just felt so right to me and I don't think being entrepreneurial is a role it's not a role it's not a title it's a mindset and I had been allowed to be an entrepreneur when I was at Bumble and it was the most fulfilling experience of my life I think you've won if you're working for someone else and you are trusted respected you love the product you use the product and you can be an owner that's like the best setup I think and you can feel that way in your own company but you can also feel that way in other people's companies and I just loved well love Michelle Kennedy like she'd really been there for me throughout my whole career she was actually on the board at Bumble she came up with the name Bumble and she then invested in sunroom and so she's really been there you know I've seen you yeah and I've I've seen her I saw what she did after Bumble I saw her create pain art the fact that I'd actually used it myself and it had really saved me I just knew that my next step had to be something that actually mattered it had to be something which could help women in their darkest times because motherhood can be really isolating and really lonely and pain art is there to to solve that and there really aren't any other products like it and it just felt like a no brainer it felt like everything I was looking for so I still feel like I get to operate like a founder but I get to do it within someone else's business which means there's less per even less personal risk for me to be honest like I have a bit of security I felt was it was like a good feeling at this stage in my career as well and I also wanted to get my hands on a big big brand on a brand that can make bold statements and kind of partner with anyone in this baby motherhood space and peanut can do that so it feels nice to like get my hands on a product like that again yeah I love hearing that because I think vulnerable like HSR has become so linked to me like it is when you think of Maggie you think of HSR now right do you agree with that 100% you are HSR yeah and for me because it is such a part of my identity I can't even put my minds at right now into a place of like if that didn't work out what would I do when I feel like I would feel a lot of pressure to start something again because it's like proving people wrong it was there any of that that you had or not because you had a successful exit I know what you mean um I guess it comes back to challenging the status quo and just being okay with doing things where you don't really care what someone else would think like I definitely had a brief moment where I was like oh is this my only choice now do I need to found another company and I spent a lot of time thinking about what sort of company I would build if I was to do it again and to be honest I would want to build a peanut and so it made that's why it makes so much sense also like I think I just really could see the power of the peanut product and again it was like why would I try and recreate this amazing thing that already exists and it's helping so many women I want to help blow it up and like join a team that are already like on the ride and kind of help take it from strength to strength so yeah I think there's always that fear of like whilst I was doing Sunday my often fantasized I guess about what the end would be like and what is a win or a loss and again I kind of reached this conclusion that there's just no bad ending when you have founded a business like even if you start a business and it never makes any money and it fails within a year you have increased your own capital your own personal capital and your own worth you'll be able to go into any interview and provide insights to no one else can you have proven that you've done something that many people don't have the guts to do and you also could take those learnings and push them into another business like I think it's about how you operate through the process like I kind of loved when we got to the end of sunroom and our lead investor was like if you guys do something again like we'd reinvest in you and I think that is kind of a nice way to to walk away but yeah I'd be so excited to see what you would do with hot smart rich like if you were also a mum not saying that's what you need to do you know it's not it's not to be all an end all it's just this really transformative thing that like expands your brain and will make you see things you've never seen before I don't just make your your company even more powerful if that's what you want to do you know I think it comes back to choice and I think this is why it's so amazing if we imagine a world where society cared as much about caregiving and motherhood as it did capitalism like that would actually be better for the economy you know and I think it would really help women when it comes to wondering how they will navigate career and motherhood there's just a lot of work that needs to be done a lot of 20 year olds listening to this they I get this question all the time they're like I'm ambitious I want to be like you but I'm just self-conscious I don't know what's the first step for someone that's listening to this that wants to be like you where do they start you do need to have a solid risk appetite like I have made moves in my career that people have literally said to my face why'd you do that like when I left bumble people were like they would they were judging me for that decision when I started sunroom mentors and people I really respected told me it was a bad idea they told me I was going to ruin my reputation by starting a company in the creator economy space and sunroom allowed for slightly more central content and people told me that that was a risky place to be and I remember one mentor explicitly saying to me you'll never be on a board if you go into this kind of area. I think it's how you respond to people doubting you. So in those moments where people told me I was never going to be on a board and that was a bad idea, I didn't see that as a reason to not take the scary move that actually lit a fire in me even more and made me think okay if I can help curate this brand in a way that changes that person's perception then this is a powerful full product and I'm motivated by marketing in a way that changes people's perceptions. So I think you have to be okay with rejection and doubters and it's how those doubts make you feel because some feedback is warranted totally might have a good idea. You know so it's not about ignoring all of it but you have to be comfortable doing things that other people might not be comfortable with but it does take I think if you looked at what I'd done on a piece of paper maybe the sacrifices I made at each junk shop wouldn't be as obvious as like moving back in with your parents getting a retail job leaving a very comfortable salary and other things on the table and paying yourself 55 grand and moving to another country. Feeling vulnerable and insecure but still backing yourself and reaching out to people that you respect an admire and just seeing where it goes I just believe everything works out as it's meant to and even if you failed at any of those moments of putting yourself out there and being brave or asking the question or feeling like you take a backwards step it always leads to a leap in future like I have on paper probably taken backwards steps knowing it will lead to a giant leap somewhere down the line. Okay well I need to stop there and just do some rapid effects. That was like a sermon. I love it. Michelle. Yeah oh fuck I'm scared. No these are fun. Okay. What's the last thing you put on your credit card? Oh my god of course it was my hair. My hair yesterday. How much was it? $513. Oh god we look amazing. She's so good. Yeah. What is the last most expensive thing you put on your credit card? The next most expensive was I bought a pair of boots. They cost $234. Yeah love it from where? From the adult Che Vita. They're like a Kate. Is that how you say that brand? Like a Kate Dube. Okay love it. What's more exhausting being a woman online or being a mom? Oh fucking exhausting being a woman online. It's weird that I'm thinking like I mean physically it's more exhausting being a mom running around with a toddler. Hectic. But sometimes being online, I'm the kind of person where a comment here or there, I will stew on that. Like I don't have the skills when it comes to dealing with online, whereas I'm really working on myself when it comes to motherhood. So maybe that will make you feel less scared of being a mother as well. Like online's pretty exhausting. Employee founder executive. Oh which way to prefer? Yeah. You can only have one for the rest of your life. Executive. So you're exactly where you are meant to be. Yeah because you can have skin in the game. Yeah. Is an exec. Yeah. And security. Yeah. But I even I've never worked for a startup where I didn't own equity except for one. Yeah. What is your favorite women founded company that's not peanut or sunroom or bubble? I really like is it cake? Those nipples. Yeah. That's exactly who I thought you were gonna say. Yeah. I love what they are doing. I think they are setting a brilliant example for women founded businesses. Yeah. And this is like what I love about peanut too. It's like don't just say you care about women. Fucking prove it. A lot of people pretend and I'd love to call the pretenders out. I'd love to create a database. You know? See one here myself. Yeah. So we'll give it to cake beauty because that's just incredible. I think they're about to take a month off. They give their whole team a month of paid leave right now and they're paying for child care. Yeah. You can only pick one thing. What do you think your career has most been driven by? Timing, luck, skill, timing. Because I believe luck isn't really a real thing. It's a combination of time and opportunity colliding at the same moment. That is what creates luck. There's still some skill in there. So I think it's it's timing. Favorite comfort creator? Halibut, Zelda. I just love how outrageous she is. And I just watch her live her life. And I'm like, go off girl. This is so on. Go on, Sunroom. Yeah. Go off. Yeah. This is so unhealthy. And I am so here for it. Okay, last one. What is an opinion about women that always gets you into trouble? Maybe I don't have one because I really try not to judge. I think motherhood has instilled that in me. Like you really don't know the the walk someone is walking. You know, whatever that line is. There's so much judgment out there when it comes to moms. Like how you feed. What do you do around sleep? Like how you speak to your child? If you're in if you're sending your kid to daycare, if you have a nanny, blah, blah, blah. So I like don't I literally don't really judge anything about women's choices. Maybe the thing that gets me into trouble is I judge the people that judge them. You know? So like if someone's out there with a strong opinion around like formula or something like that, I really despise that because I'm like, you have no fucking clue how hard it is for some people to breastfeed. Like you cannot judge a woman's choices around certain things. So maybe what gets me into trouble is how hard I judge the judges. So maybe that means actually I'm judgmental. Michelle Badders be where can people find Jill on Instagram, I guess. At Michelle Badders be. And they sell it. Oh, really? Yeah, because it's a hard last name. I mean, I can't pronounce it. Okay. Do I need just for Michelle or just Badders be. Okay. Badders be. B-A-D-L-T-E-R-S-B-Y. And what can agents are help you with right now? Oh, I just I need or if you're a mom out there and you're not on peanut, you need to be. And if you're a woman out there who is about to go through that transition, you also need to be on peanut. Because even for me, I've got I've got mom groups, you know, I've got the group chats where I can ask my friends things. But the other day, I had a question which I just didn't even feel comfortable asking all the other mums. I was like, you know, what I need to do is incognito on peanut on a place where I won't be judged and I just threw it out there. And I just I need I need the mums to know like there is a safe community full of women who get it and are going through it that you can go and doom scroll on and it's much better for your health than doing it on Instagram or TikTok. So honestly, I know it sounds biased, but like it is a lifeline for so many women and you just need to know it's out there. Thank you so much for coming in hot spiritual. We love you. I love you. Thanks for having me.