Behind the White Coat: Executive Dean Dr. Ian Dunn

(upbeat music) - Welcome to the R story podcast, the College of Medicine Student Affairs very own student focus podcast. I'm your host, Katie Smith, Assistant Dean for Student Affairs. Today's episode is titled, "Behind the White Coat." We are super excited to welcome a very special guest to our show. Dr. Ian Dunn is wrapping up his second week as the new executive dean of the College of Medicine. For all our listeners, Dr. Dunn is a renowned neurosurgeon, a researcher and has been with OU since 2018, serving as professor and chair for the Department of Neurosurgery, the Harry Wilkins MD Chair of Neurosurgery, and most recently served as senior associate dean for clinical affairs for the College of Medicine. In addition to his academic and clinical duties, he also has numerous leadership roles with OU Health and OU Health partners, our hospital partner on campus. Dr. Dunn's new role also includes a brand new position as chief academic officer with OU Health. I could go on with all of his accolades, but I just want to give you a heartfelt welcome to the R story podcast. Dr. Dunn, we are excited to have you. Dr. Smith, thank you very much. That is possibly the nicest introduction I've ever had. And I really appreciate the opportunity. I think this, even the title of this podcast is perfect, and I think it exemplifies what I, of the many things we hope to accomplish going forward is how do we tell our story here at the College of Medicine and all the phenomenal things that I've been able to witness even in the first two weeks of being here. So I really appreciate being invited to be on the podcast. And if I'm not invited back, I know I wasn't well reviewed, but this is my first podcast ever, and I'm really excited about it. So thank you. Well, we will, we'll let you know how many listens you get. So it helps if you advertise to your family and friends on social media. I'm gonna do that shamelessly. Don't worry about that. Okay, well jump right in. So we're excited about you having a new role as executive dean and particular your vision for our MD program. So we'll start by talking about that, and then dive into some additional questions so our students can learn more about you. Can you start by discussing any goals you have for the College of Medicine and what your hopes are for our student body in the coming years? Sure, obviously I could take two hours to do this, or I'm gonna give a high level summary. But I may wanna just add a few experienced details that I might share that have informed where I think we can be really successful in that. I did, I was born overseas and then moved around in a military family. And so I spent some time in the Northeast, part of the United States, and then spent an incredibly important year in the University of Arkansas. In 2010, and in my little area of neurosurgery, if you're doing a fellowship, you're really going to find that one surgeon where she's located, that one institution wherever, here she's located, and you go there. And the pinnacle of our field at that time was actually the University of Arkansas. Now I grew up just north of Arkansas, I'm Zuri, but I never visited Arkansas. And so, but that year was the very best year of my time in medicine to that point. And I saw surgery that I never thought was possible. And I'd been in some really great institutions that I thought were top of the pile. And it was just so high up in, I'll never forget the first week of it. I mean, it was just one learning experience after another. And not that I had this reflection at the moment, but two things really stay with me. One is, I enjoyed the learning and the work and so forth, but what really seeped in, and us most in, was I enjoyed the environment. And when I look back on, I'm what about the environment? Little rocks great, but there were a lot of great great places to be. It's the service element. And it's in the center of the state, and we were serving so many different kinds of patients. And the entire state looks to that institution, to be the standard bear for everything in medicine, in learning, in residency, in clinical practice, and in the study of the problems that we were trying to improve. And if that institution didn't do it, it may not happen at all. And so that was really powerful. And it's not like the institutions I'd been in before didn't have that, but it was different because there were so many of those institutions in the cities in which I'd been before. The second was, they were sending credible clinical and academic programs at that institution. They really surprised me. I knew North Survery was going to be good, and it was just world class. It was incredible. But there were amazing initiatives in myeloma actually really stood out at that time. And the learning there was, so much my training had been on one and one part of the country that you really, that there are great programs and initiatives everywhere. And if you add that need-based component, that service-based component, that it adds an incredible different flavor to the work. And so when I personally think about it, and I go in evaluate programs, if a health system or a college medicine or that fusion of the academic health system has one great clinical program. What that says is there's a great skeleton, and you can layer muscle on top of that in different ways. And so that's really what I found here at OU. And it took me personally, like one interview here, and looking at the job of Chair to see the incredible, what's already here, the great assets that the great physical space, the fact that we're in the center of the state, there's another big academic health system for three and a half hours, I mean, you can go on and on and on. But that service component is alive and well here. And that's a long-winded way of beginning to answer the question of what we want to accomplish is one, we really have to remember what our responsibilities are. And I feel like, as I've gotten really close to the college in the last couple of weeks, everyone internally here feels that. And the entire state looks to the college of medicine as that champion, that standard bearer for everything, for everything in medicine. And it's amazing what the brand of OU is around the state. And I've driven around everywhere, all these little towns, and I love Oklahoma geography. When you say you're from OU, I mean, they just light up. I mean, they just look at OU in a certain way. And that is responsibility that I would remind all of us that we have at the OU global level, at the Health Sciences Center level, at the college level, and obviously in partnership with our academic health system at OU Health. So in terms of what are some of the things we want to focus on, I've been really blown away by the focus on medical students and PA students and our learners at the college of medicine. And obviously Dr. Smith, you're part of that team. The dedication from the staff and how the students receive that, it's really exceptional. And I really can't imagine more attention and more focus being paid to students anywhere in the country. And so from an education, I mean, things are already going really well. And what's the task when things are going well? Unfortunately, it's just to keep doing more of it and to keep innovating and reaching higher. And so I think that's the goal for the team. I know that lots of great work has gone on with innovating the curriculum in that next phase, which is coming. And I'd love to have a chance. And I'm sure hopefully we can get a chance to talk about that more in this forum. But innovation is not always that costly. It doesn't always take bottomless resources. So that's something where we can continue to really, really excel. And how do we know what success looks like? I mean, our students will tell us, right? They will tell us if we're doing great, because they've got their own networks of students around the country. They're applying for the same residency position and the same internships, the sameness in that. They will let us know. And their success will also inform us as to how we're doing with those programs. But I'm really excited about the plans that I've seen that you and your teams have drawn up around innovations in education. And actually, today I just had my first lunch with a group of medical students. I've been really committed to trying to meet as many medical students as possible. I'm going to find them whether or not they want to meet with me or not. And actually, when I'm said, no, how much will we see you? I'm like, you may not want to see me that much, but it was just great to get the feedback that they're feeling all the things that you're doing and your team you're doing. So staying really innovative, staying at the leading edge, there's no reason why-- I mean, it leads into the question of who are peers. And oh, you football, right? We're going to the SEC. That's it, easy to our peers or SEC. A little different question when we're thinking about college and math, who are our comparators and the college and math? Who do we look at and say, that's great. We want to emulate that. We can emulate that. We've got the resources and the talent and the runway to emulate that. So I think that's another question I'll ask our teams, too. Both education and the next issue I'll address on the podcast. Who are your peers? And defining that really clipped truly. And honestly, just making sure we're always staying one step out of the curve. I think there are specific challenges with medical education right now that I think have been really well-adjusted of you, but the notion of student debt, the general global issues with making sure people feel well when the work is really hard, making sure it feels like they belong and better where you're from, what you look like, and what your beliefs are. And that's really important. And making sure that our students have the exact same opportunities that everybody else in the country has. And that's something I'm really, really committed to. And I think another early area of focus is if you look at just the range of colleges and medicine nationally. One of the clear differentiators, and let's just take state-based college and medicine right now. Forget the ones with deep coffers that were kind of born on third base and they're still there and they're always gonna be there. That's great. But I do feel a little bit of a, showing my hand here, I do feel we've got a lot of state-based comparers systems and their data out there, their ranking says out there. I think in addition to a real focus on education, which again is a huge core part of our mission, it's also a focus on studying how to do things better. So the research, college scholarship, and research with a capital art. And you know, there are, like it or not, there are metrics of how we're doing in that regard. And of course that requires resources and commitment. And really more important than that is really a culture of scholarship. Just like there's a phenomenal culture of, and I'll talk a lot about culture really in my time in this role, because it's everything, right? It's that, almost that dark matter glue that holds us all together and binds us in these missions. But it's a culture of scholarship, culture of research. So I'd like, and there's really good research that's going on in the college of medicine right now, specifically in our phenomenal basic science departments. And we've got certain clinical departments, Dr. Smith, your department is really an exemplar in that domain, but when we look at how we judged in this mission. So first of all, should we be in this business? And I would argue that being a research intensive medical school is absolutely our obligation. It's our responsibility to advance health care for the specific citizens of Oklahoma, but also to contribute knowledge far beyond these borders. And so we're going to stay. We are now, but I want to continue to deepen our investment in as a research intensive college medicine. And so that's all nice. What does it mean for all of us? So I think what that means at a really granular level is we've got a lot of great departments. That's our work is subdivided, right? That's our structure. And so traditionally, a lot of that work in scholarship is embedded in basic science. But I think the future looks like a lot of that also being driven in clinical departments. That's not to overshadow. It's the continue to support and grow basic science, but also to deepen the investment in scholarship in clinical departments. So our investment in research is going to be a major focus in the role. And these things, I know that all our millions of listeners know this, but delivering clinical care, teaching clinical care, studying how to drive clinical care, how to-- and the research mission-- these are all fused, right? And that's actually what makes this particular campus extra special. It's what differentiates us from a community health system, from let's say college medicine, where it's just the degree you're getting at the end of it. It's actually that all those things happen together. And the clinical mission should be so advanced here that people want to come and learn how to do it. So that leads them to the education piece. And the problems with the patients that we treat should be so complex that we're driven to study, how to do it better. So these missions all align together. And I think the third, I think mission element that I would highlight is I think also ensuring that not only are students and learners of all kinds feel welcome, but that recentering, I think, the wellness of our faculty. There's been a lot of change over the past couple years. And I've not really gotten used to any one model, because I've been here for five years. I feel like every year there's some sort of seismic, titanic change going on. So I've been able to not really hold on to one particular construct, because it's going to change. But I think the change that happened a couple years ago, we have a new sort of formed academic health system. And I really want to make sure that the college of medicine, I think, repositions are self is sort of the heartbeat of that system. And both really need each other to be extremely successful, to enhance the mission elements of each. So that's another big goal that I have. Awesome. Well, first of all, if you bring lunch, students will show up. I think that's a tenant of all of us in medical school. But that's all really exciting. Sounds like we're headed in the right direction. I know our students care about all of those issues, having excellent access to education, research, clinical care, and in the end, they want to be competitive when they leave this place for the top residencies, the top jobs. And of course, that's our goal. So when our students are thinking about who is our new executive dean, can you tell us about-- you mentioned fellowship in Arkansas, but how did you decide on neurosurgery as a specialty? How did you always see yourself as a leader or administrator? And then for our students who walk in these doors and have no idea what they're doing, what advice do you have for them on discovering what specialty is right? Sure. These are phenomenal questions. So my path in neurosurgery was-- actually, it's very similar to the advice that I'll combine these answers together. I did a-- I think most students early on, they gravitate to-- I want to be more of a procedural specialist or more of a non-procedural. I think there's a little bit of a glacial divide early on. So I thought I wanted to do something procedural or surgical, but that was very big. I had a neuroscience class, anatomy class. And I still remember it to this day. I remember we were shown where the third-- this is really nerdy. So where the third nerve emerges from the brain is then between these two arteries. And I thought it was just magical. And it's a minor thing, but that's not what set the path for me, large in my life, but it traded a real interesting neuroanatomy. And all neurosurgeons have to be faceted and obsessed with neuroanatomy. And that really is how that started for me. So right after that, I actually contacted the department neurosurgery that was attached to the medical school, began to shadow pretty traditional sort of foray into a field at that point. And then began to-- I worked in the lab. I wrote some papers, began to meet some residents. And that's advice I would give any medical student. Yes, we want to be-- we want to reach into the students to provide those opportunities, but we can't be everywhere at all times. And we can't come to your house and pick you up and drive you into the department. So just be proactive, you know, residents, students, and departments. They love that. And so I just happened to be really well received by this particular department. And actually the tough part was doing sub-intermissions because you're not really-- so if you love basketball, right? And you're a 10-year-old basketball player. You're playing basketball, right? You're taking free throws, you're taking three corners. And similar to what a professional basketball player does. Just they don't let better. But as a sub-eye, you're not really doing what you think you will be doing as a real formed neurosurgeon. So then there's this existential question, like everything that I've done so far suggests that I really want to do this. But I'm actually not doing this on the sub-insert ship. And so you're trying to imagine, then, is this what I'm seeing when I'm looking? Interestingly, I thought that in this was kind of a little bit a while ago, kind of 380 hours and so forth. But I thought the neurosur� faculty were really happy. They were really happy, which I thought was also sub-bride. I wasn't expecting that. And so anyway, I ended up doing my residency in Boston and fellowship, as we talked about. And in terms of how I decided-- and I have a little subspecialty in tumors at the base of the skull-- I did a case as a senior resident with a female faculty member who I respect immensely, but she was very pregnant. And she said, look, I really going to need you to do a little bit more here. She was having a-- I could tell she's having a tough day. And again, we keep in touch. She's incredible. But honestly, this single case, where I just was able to do more, was a captive by the case, actually informed my decision of what fellowship to do. So I can point to those kind of singular moments in my training. I didn't have any specific interest in administration or leadership at all. I had five chairs where I was before. And I don't know if just a quick repetition of multiple different leadership styles, somehow osmos at some point and inform my interest in being a leader in neurosurgery. But it was probably six years into being a faculty member where I really wanted to-- that solidified and began to form. And so I began to look into administrative roles after that. And that led me here to you. And really, it's been a phenomenal department. And what makes any great team is the people. So the students, the residents, the staff, the faculty, the advanced practice providers, the investigators. It's a great team. If I were to give any student advice, it's to how to choose what you want to go to. When we're applying, when you think you want to go to be a position, we know that there are a lot of specific boxes you have to check. I've got to take organic chemistry. I think, for the next second, I've got to do this. And that you may not be that passionate about those things. You think, well, I could do it for a semester. And so there's a mentality. There's an intellectualization of the path that you have to go through to become a position. Even though you may not be passionate about every one of those steps, you're passionate about the global. So I think you have to have a different mindset when you're choosing a specialty. You have to let your experiences and honestly, your heart and your gut guide you. So even though you think you should be a cardiologist, or you think you should be an obstetrician, that doesn't really matter anymore. It's really what you enjoy. Because you're making a big decision for it that should inform the path for the rest of your life. So you've got to let these experiences and what you're really enjoying, even if they're not what you thought they would be, you thought you wanted to be a general surgeon, but you're really enjoying your infectious disease rotation. You've got to listen to that. And that would be my advice to every student, which is listen to what you've really enjoyed, reflect on the teams that you want to emulate and be part of, even if it's not what you initially came into a medical school with a fever. And that personally served me very well. And I think people that I've known that they're really enjoying what they're doing, I think have always been guided in that way. Awesome. We talked a little bit about all the things going on, and our students today have access to more information than ever before. They have a large body of medical knowledge. You know, their phone has everything they could ever need. But they also have access to all sorts of information. What is, I didn't know what USMLE was when I came to medical school. Like I signed up for something I knew zero things about. So, but now they have maramatch data. They know what scores we get. You know, they know what their chances are of X, Y, and Z. So a lot of our students sometimes get stressed about the future. What is the future of medicine? And do they fit into that? So do you have any advice to them when they sort of are looking at those hurdles and worried about where their place will be? That's a great question. Lastly, I had the same, I got a lecture in, I'm dating myself, but it was an economist in Reagan's Catholic economic advisors. And he was preaching about the end of healthcare. Like you shouldn't go to healthcare at the whole field. This is like a long, long time ago. I feel like that's been there for a long time. And I think it's because the path is hard. But I find a personal level. What I do at each day in terms of touching learners, touching scholarship, touching patients, I can't imagine a more warning way to spend your life and your time. And I think the future of medicine is still incredible. But I do think students have to be, essentially, there's got to be a little bit of an indoctrination about be willing to accept and embrace change because it's coming, right? 80 hours came. No more USM at least step one came. You know, that's initially viewed as a real positive. But that comes with some complexity. Right? We'll explore it together and we'll explore here in the college. So I think it's, and of course there's financial burdens of the training and just the years of investment. But I just, most of nearly all of my, of course there's exceptions, but nearly all of my colleagues reflect back on the decision to enter and do what they're doing now and would do it again and again and again. And I think there are hurdles. There are economic pressures. There are time pressures. And those have evolved over time, but I still think it's an incredibly rewarding and reaching way to commit to your life. And I think the way that society views medicine will never change. Awesome. Do you have any parting? Well, I say parting words. You're not going anywhere except for off of our podcast momentarily. But anything else in this initial, just voice you have with us that you want to message to our students before the end of our time here together. I think to the student population of writ large, I would say that I want to just in my, in my first two weeks, just share with you how much you're valued, how much the leadership of the college of medicine and all the staff and teams care about your education. Sometimes it's hard to feel that when you're in the stress of exams and learning this immense body of knowledge. But this college exists for your benefit and your well-being. I'd say on a personal selfish level, I'd love to hear from you. So email me, stop me at the health club, stop me the hallway, and I'd love to connect with you personally. Awesome. Dr. Dunn, thank you so much for being with us today. We will definitely have you back on the pod to talk about more things related to the college of medicine. We are going to take off. We will see you next time on our story. [Music]