Behind the Bottle: The Human Stories and Craft of Tuscan Winemaking with Ivo Assanelli

You see how different areas or different people see the wine in different ways, but one thing is true that if you have beauty in front of you, everyone can see. And that's the same for wine. Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with All K. Hey, we're going to Wine Talks with Paul Kay and we are in studios today with a beautiful Southern California, but that will conversation with Evo Asinelli. - They got it right? - Yeah, it's perfect. He is a sales manager for Kay Arosa out of Tuscany, which is a kind of incredible history. We'll talk about that in just a second, but welcome to the show. Oh, thank you very much. Thank you for having me here. It's fun to come to L.A. You do some tasting, you talk to some folks. Yeah, I mean, you were sending the egg off a little bit. I did, and then I'm heading a little bit to Florida, just finishing my second trip here in the U.S. For us, it's a big market, so it's important to be here and to open some buttons and to share with great people. Do you know what, does that want to take these days? Like, you got to get out there, you're all the way from Italy and Tuscany, the great region of Tuscany, to get out, come to America and just open bottles and let people know what you guys are doing, does that want to take? Yeah, I guess that's the only way, especially in such a difficult situation, because I think we are in quite difficult condition right now, the market, the geopolitics around, the wine, like the consumer is slowing down a little bit, consumption. So it's very important to be out there to open those bottles, especially for us, which we are still a small estate. So the only way to let us know is just to go around, to carry those wines, to open the bottles, and to share it with great people. So what about that? But is that really different? I mean, I suppose if the time were better, we talk about it for the listeners, the watchers of the show, when we say times are better, there has been a decrease in consumption. We've talked about that. There's a prohibition movement, sort of a neo-prohibition, there's a low-alcohol, those things are going on. It's not a huge amount of pressure. In this fact, there's, you know, I think, single-digit reduction in consumption. But I think it's a generational thing, where like people like my age, do drink, you know, consume. I would say drink a lot. Let's just say I can consume. I think it's a mix of things. For sure is generational. For sure is also some older drinks are coming more in the young generation, of course. But I guess we need to, I guess also, back in the days, I don't know what age you start drinking, why? But usually, you don't start in very young estate. Not in America. Yeah, especially also broad. So I don't really think it's too much the young generation, which are not approaching wine. The main thing is the way they approach wine the first few times. Because sometimes they approach wine as alcohol. But wine is totally different. It's not a beverage. And that's the approach we, all the system and all the wine industry is trying to point out. And that's why it's so important to move and going around open bottles to share the beauty behind it. It's not a beverage, it's not alcohol. It's just amazing liquid that carries stories, people in place. So that's why it's so important. And I agree with that completely. And that's why the original question was sort of like, the fact that you're out here now really shouldn't change and won't change in the future. Because I think the wine industry forever and a day, forever, the people who do this every day want to share that with people that don't do it every day to get the feeling that we get, the understanding what we understand. You don't have to understand wine, you don't have to study it. But eventually I think the human soul realizes that this product is not alcohol. It's a story. How does it work? In a bottle. It's a story behind it. And of course it's about people who make it, but it's also about places. And of course it's about time because it's about the vintage. So of course the beauty and the strength about this liquid, it's all this powerful connection and the only way is to go to the emotional and to share the stories and these beautiful things. I'm trying to think of any other product that I can't do it. The music would be another sort of tale, tale sign of culture because it does represent time based on the kind of music it is. It represents a culture because of the style of music it is. But there's no product you consume as a human. As you consume. I don't think so, but maybe if you want to look it in a broader way like hearts, at the end it can be a period, it can be cultural, it can be about the artist as in itself. And you don't have to be an expert in art to get involved emotionally with that. That's true. And that's a beauty of wine. So some people know a lot about it, some people doesn't, but they all get emotional. That's a great point. And that's the strength about this. That's a good word, the emotional connection. I'm reading a book right now, which people think of. Like what are you talking about? Gertrude's dying, the famous sort of wine, not wine, but the book in painting critic France back in the day. This is the 20s. And her partner was Alice B. Tockless. And she wrote this, she, they wrote a lot of books. But when you said art, and now that I'm reading this story about Matisse and Picasso and all these people that would come into her apartment, just show up for dinner, for a drink, it was an open invitation in her apartment in Paris to come chat. And when you hear those stories about what that background was like and what they struggled with in those days to become famous, you realize there's so much more to that painting, just like a bottle of wine, than what meets the eye. And when you understand it, the appreciation grows. And I'm sure when you understand all these background behind these, the painting, speak even more, even louder, even more deep and they connect to even more, and the wine is the same. It's the same way as well. This is the part that bothers me a little bit about contemporary thought process. And you probably follow LinkedIn and all the social networking. I just wrote a little article about that because you have to do those things. People are trying to find ways to fix this issue through social networking metrics, through packaging, through potential style differences, add sugar to the wine, whatever, grape sugar. And I just don't think that stuff plays out. I mean, it plays out in a short term. But I don't see how putting wine in a pouch, you know, that a kid, that a child would use for applesauce, fixes or changes the problem. It just, it doesn't address the real value of a glass of wine. It just comes up with some kind of. 100% and that's more towards wine as a beverage. So that's more the beverage side of wine, which doesn't stand for all the wines. And I think you have these two main categories where wine as a beverage, the wine, the wine you used to cook, the wine you used just to get a little bit tipsy, and then there's wine that you share just to get involved with this story. And behind for sure. I had a cross-country coach in high school that his thesis as a physical ed teacher was that you couldn't get drunk on a bottle of wine and he tried to calculate it based on the. I tell people all the time, in fact, I have a friend just thanked me for this conversation, 750 ml, which is 25 ounces or so. And if it's only 13 and a half percent alcohol, that's like three ounces for the whole bottle. If you have one martini at a bar, that's usually four to six ounces. So you can just hold the bottle of wine. We're not condoning that, of course. So when you're talking about the background, the history of wine and the story of the bottle, and I completely agree with it, we were just talking about Chetoggi score, which. So tell me the relation of Chetoggi score being a famed Cheto and the left bank of Bordeaux, owns entirely Tyrosa. Yeah, actually everything starts in the early 2000, or Eric, Albadad Yekarsma, this Dutch entrepreneur, that acquired Chetoggi score in 1995. And a few years later, a fellow love with this winery Chyrosa in the coast of Tascanie. The winery was already there, but just at the beginning, it was. It's been built and planted a few hectares. Eric arrived, a fellow love with the area, and they said to acquire it. And, of course, taking all the background from Chetoggi score, from the Margot Appellation, and to develop this project even more in Wempharder. So it plants a little bit more vineyard. Now we are 39 hectares in three different hills, all around the coast of Tascanie, where you have small town called Wempervella. So the coast of Tascanie you're talking about, do west of like Florence? Well, yeah, actually we are in between Bulgarian Livorno, you know, if you've ever been in the area, but it's just a beautiful area because you have this small coast where you have Bulgari, for instance, and then you have all the hills around this area. And can you see that? - The Rousse is right on top of those hills, just in front of the coast. You have this amazing outstanding view on Elbe Island, just in front, and a little bit farther, Cors Island, which is a big French island. - I am fascinated by wines from islands like that. Like Corsco, so Sardinia, Sistale. I just, there's something about them. So when we talk about the coast, you're talking about, maybe with that, it's about 80 acres, and you know, American style, 39 hectares. - Yeah, actually we are on the 80s, we died down. - Yeah, we died down. - Which is substantial amount of land. In Bulgaria being do south, is that what it is? - At least a bit south, there, yeah. - Okay, so in Bulgaria being the home of Analaya and some of the great supertuskins, is that idea travel north too, so we're growing Cabernet, Merlot, Syros, and like that? - For sure we have those varieties, those four varieties that we usually find in Bordeaux and of course in Bulgaria. The idea was a little bit farther than that. It was not to producing a marco wine and dusk any. The idea was to express the most and the best of out of this complexity. So the first thing they did, Eric, with all the technical team, they started to analyze all the soils around the area and to see also the microclamatic condition of those parts. And they finally realized that the soils were changing the very diverse, changing very quickly in few meters like in Bordeaux. - That's like Bordeaux, Bernadine. - So what he said was like perfect, we're gonna do micro parcel and out of this small parcel, we're gonna ferment everything separate. That's why we end up in 39 hectares but 59 parcel. Each parcel produced at least a while. Those are small parcels. - Very tiny parcel. And the idea is like a chef in a restaurant. He does a lot of small preparation to then blend everything in. That's the very same thing. So we produce in each parcel we ferment separately and then the final act. Maybe the most artistic one where we have technical team of Chateauges' Cour, technical team of Caerossa, city at the same table where we do the blending. - There's always thoughts of just having to organize them right now but because Chateauges' Cour being a famed chef was a fourth growth or fifth growth. - He said, "Tack of the growth, fraction of the third growth." It brings with a lot of history, a lot of blending technology. We're not talking about Burgundy was only one grape. We're talking about five potential grapes in Bordeaux. And then you bring that idea to Tuscany where you've got these little micro plots, which is really small, the hectare, a little more than the hectare. The idea then to try and produce the best representation of that soil and that terroir and what's going on in each parcel. - Yeah, the idea is to if I understand the soils, I understand what fit best. That's why they plant multiple varieties. We don't only grow the four varieties of Bordeaux or that we find also in Bordeaux, we grow 10 grape varieties, four white and six red varieties. Varieties that usually they don't really fit together. Of course we have the four of Bordeaux, Franca, Venosovignon, Merlopiti, Verdo, but we also have Grenache and Syra and of course San Jovese. But it's very hard to find those varieties altogether, especially on the coast where it's hard to find San Jovese itself, even though it's the main variety, the king variety of Tuscany. - What was growing there before he bought it? - Well, actually since the beginning, it was multiple varieties. So when he arrived, he used a little bit the know-how of Chiskov just to analyze even deeper, to be even more precise on the finding parcel and on choosing the variety. The beginning was a little bit more, was also older variety. So they focus only in the best fit for the microclamatic condition and for the plot. - So here's a personal question that. You spend more time in Tuscany or more time at Bordeaux. - Well, actually I don't know because I just got there and Eric passed away a few years ago. So I never had the chance to meet him. Now we have the three brothers, two brothers and a sister and Valerie and then he's in dark, who takes care of both estate which they exchange each other. So at least a few days a year they are all coming and enjoying the sunny wine family before that. - Well, actually everything starts with Eric in '95. - So what happened before that? Were they a business man? - Yeah, just business man. And then it fell in love with wine and he decided to start with Chiskov and if he finished revolutionized Chiskov a lot from the technical team. The first thing he did, he was a huge reinforcement on the vineyard. So he focused like he did in Kairosa by improving each of the step from the very beginning for the very hand. And that's where we got Chiskov being an iconic wine. - I have a very, I have an affinity towards G-Score just because we talked about our relationship with the Vettoneks, Fensaners and Beak, the wife of Monsieur Bandeak runs G-Score. But now like that, when we were out of the wine Paris we talked about this a little bit, I'll talk about it again. It was like the last hour or two of the show and they had a bottle of G-Score that they said take this with you, which I enjoyed that night with my wife in our hotel room. And so, and this is the part about wine being experiential that's so important for people to understand and for United to discuss is that I'll remember that wine forever for that little gesture. Besides the fact that wine's level of quality is very high and the value is very high actually in my opinion. Just the little gestures that happen in our lives, it could be a dinner, it could be a sommelier who comes to the table and make a recommendation for a chiroprice of wine, whatever. But I'll remember that forever. And in this crowded world of wine, this is the point I wanted to make earlier. At wine Paris there were 6,000 booths. And I'm walking miles to get through them, you know? And I thought to myself, every one of these wineries here is vying, looking for the same thing. Exposure to the client with a restaurant or a wine shop or just traditional that. And I go, one of their, one of their show in the world has exactly the same product, maybe slightly different from region to region or grape to grape. But effectively vying for that same shelf spot that shelf right there, the shelf of my dad, the wine shop at the days. It's a very difficult trek in the very difficult business. But it still attracts people that own Chateau-Geek sort. They're like, I've done my business. I want to be in the wine trade. What is this romantic goal by people? There's a theoretical question. I'm not, you know, what is it? I think what I think is that the beauty of wine, the beauty of this business is special, like you say. And there's many different business. And I had the opportunity to work mostly in this wine business. But when you see it, the care of the sales is not just about selling, it's about sharing, it's about connecting. And human value is the most important thing. But mostly, just simply because we all love wine. So we are first wine lover, and then we work in the wine business. But being everybody's so in love with this liquid makes everything so much more. It's not a work, you know, but you have to do it. How did you get started in that? Well, it's funny because I started in Italy, you can choose different high school. And here you can change classes. But in Italy, actually, you choose the high school, which are very specific on topic. And I did the one of agriculture and ecology. So back then, I was already started to study a little bit with the culture andology, agroforestry, et cetera. And then I fell in love with the chemistry of wine, how everything can change through the period of wine and evolution. And at the same time, I brought a graduate from university and became a wine maker. So he found his first job in Tuscany. And I still remember visiting him, those amazing hill near Montalcino, beautiful hills. He was always outside on the outdoors, in the vineyard, tasting grapes, understanding the future, how those grapes will taste in the battle in few years. And that fascinates me so much. Montalcino is beautiful, too. It is a beautiful area. But what's nice about wine, that every wine region, is just an amazing area. And if you think about it, start to think about wine region, which is not gorgeous. No, that's true. That's truly a wine region that's trying to develop itself as a unique place to be, a unique terroir, a unique-- and that's why it's so fun to travel the world to do this. It's not a day goes by, even now, that I'm not selling wine anymore. But having conversations like this one, that I don't thank my father for asking me to come join him in his business when he started the wine shop I worked for years. [BLANK_AUDIO] I left, I went to corporate America, and I went to a little small software company, and then he called us and said, "You know, I'm going to sell the company." You may want to come look at it before I sell it. Then how do you, you know, I can't turn out my father at that course, and now I think I'm maybe passed away a couple years ago, but every day for getting me involved. - For, it took, I don't know about you. So you, you're talking about university, senior brother, go through the career. I sold wine probably for 10 years, directed the consumer before I realized what was happening here, what I was doing for people. I was just business for me, for 10 years. I did it for 35 years, but for 10 years, I just was going through the motions of business. - Well, in my size, it's a bit different because now I take care of the sales of Kaya Rosa, but everything, it's just a few years, I'm in this, in the sales, what I like to say, the dark side of the business, the sales. - He knows it. - Because actually I started as well, I took the path of my brother and I said, that's a winemaker. So I did my experience around the road, but mostly in Italy, in the production side. Then one day I received the opportunity to take care of the sales of a winery, and I was young and I was like, okay, I should try it and see what I'm doing. And then I moved in, and at the end, what I realized after a few years in sales, I'm not a salesman. My job is to be a salesman. And it's a slightly different, because I cannot sell everything, I cannot sell this book, I cannot sell peers, I cannot sell any other things. I can sell wine. - Your story tell, I really. - That's it. I can sell wine because I love it. I deeply love what's behind it. And I just tell stories and they buy. - That's interesting, because I work for the largest sales organization in America, at the time in the '80s called Syrooxthemite copiers. And the number one thing that was always told by the experienced guys was, if you don't have a passion for this, what you're doing, if you don't truly believe in your product, depending on whether you're solving a business problem or whether you're an emotional problem, or emotional issue with wine, you can't do it. Like you've got to be connected, and certainly connecting the wine, lot of these are connecting the copiers, but you have to believe in what you're doing. And you have to believe that the consumer is gonna benefit from you making this presentation or having these conversations. You see it every day though, right? - Every single day. - Yeah. So let's go back. When I was working at shop, this is the '70s. The border layers came up with coppers sulfite like in the '40s. And so really pre-war war two, probably most vineyards were organic, indoor, biodynamic, at least organic, right? Rudolph Steiners' book wasn't built in the '20s, I think, right? The biodynamic movement, but I find this really interesting. Was it biodynamic when they bought it? - Well, actually, Carlos, I guess, since the very beginning, it was already perceived with the philosophy on organic and biodynamic. And of course, the certification takes a little more years to get. So we are officially certified from 2005 with the first vineyards planted in 1998. And but the idea of biodynamic and organic, it was not to follow this philosophy only from the agricultural practice, but also for the whole system. And what they are doing in just course, well, even though they're not certified, but they're following and they are really taking seriously what's not just what we do above the soils on the vineyard can be organic, with the spraying, with what we really use, but mostly is to maintain the ecosystem alive from the soils, but also from the park. I don't know if you visit Juskour, but the beautiful aspect of Juskour is this huge park and all the vineyards just around. So you have more than 100 actors of park and 95 actors of vineyards just around. They're like hugging this park. You know, there's not much altitude in Margot, just 20, 15 meters. - Right. - So you need that park because it's just like helping with the temperature, especially by night. And that decrease of temperature by day and night keeps the grapes very healthy, but mostly keeps the aromas there and a beautiful freshness and elegance. Well, in Kajarosa is a bit the opposite because we are quite in altitude. So for us, it's the excursion that give a lot of freshness by night, but the vineyards are quite small and the woods is all around. So it's about balance and the whole ecosystem, not just about what we're doing. - Is there marine influence on Tuscany? - Yeah. - Calliaphania. - It's very important. It's very windy that area. So we have out of wine mill all around because it's very windy day and night. Of course, we have this saltiness as well. In the wines came from the Maritime influence as well as the soil, which are very rich and diverse. And that's the beauty of this area. - I love that. You know, maybe that's the reason I'm such a fan of Sardinia, Sicily, you know, Corsica. - The Viterian influence. - Yeah, it's that Mediterranean salt, particularly in the whites. There's that just salinity to it. Just so deep, but you can taste it. Well, here's my thought process on most of this. At least on a sustainable side of things, but certainly organic. I find it interesting that the human race who butchered, and particularly in America, butchered all the farms and, you know, basically choked them off under the soil from producing interesting foods that are healthy and come from that part of land. They screw it up, and now they applaud themselves and pat themselves on the back for going back to what was always, like for instance in Burgundy, the monks had no pesticides or herbicides or insecticides. It was always organic. And the first wines that were coming through here, at the Y of the Month Club, let's say 20 years ago, that organic and biodynamic tasted like horse manure, because they didn't understand that actually the soil on its own properly managed could handle this. So they didn't know what that meant. And so when they stopped using pesticides and herbicides, et cetera, they got this stuff and it was so hard to drink. I mean, really was not very good. And I always thought that was strange because I was always like that before. I mean, most of the history of wine was organic at least, right? Yeah, I mean, back in the days, you didn't have a lot of chemicals. You didn't have it. You were doing what you had and what you had was copper and sulfur like the organic. And for sure, the hardest part is when you just don't use chemicals is to have a production, because in some area, especially in the very rainy wine region, if you don't treat, it's very, you can lose all your crop. Imagine if it's very hard only to obtain crop, imagine how hard it is to obtain very good crop to have an outstanding wine. So for sure being organic, it's very hard. Because you're sort of out of control, right? I mean, you have the control, but as those, that's all copper and sulfur that you use to spray the vineyards just to protect them from the mildews, powdery and downy midews, if it rains, you're going to lose them. Because they're probably doesn't get inside the plant, but they just study outside the plant. So if it's very rainy season or very rainy vintage or very rainy growing area, then you need to spray a lot. So it can be very fragile. And I think the fragility is the most important aspect in wine that you usually are not even considered. But the fragility of this production, of course, in organic and biodynamic, it's even more, but also in general. We start working the first of January. So you go into the vineyard, you start the pruning, and then the vine starts to debudberst, and then you start the growing season. It's select, each of, select the production, you need to take care of the plants, all the season. And then maybe just one day, you have some hail, you have some strong rain, you can lose everything. The fragility attached to this, it's very high. And it's even higher when you have organic and biodynamic production. - I'll never forget, we were in Bordeaux in 2014, I think, or '15, and we were just, we left. We got on a plane with flu, I forgot what we went, oh, we went to Monaco. And right behind us was a hail storm. And I'll never forget the news when we were in Monaco, you can see the path of the hail storm had just stripped the vines to nothing, no leaves, no graves to nothing. Everything on the eastern west side of the vineyard perfectly fine. It was just a clear path, and I thought, wow, that's devastating too. In the yard of the storm. - It is, in a few minutes, you're totally out of control. One of my masters that I learned a lot, say at our office as no roof. And it's true. Our office is the vineyard and the vineyard is no roof. So if it has some frost, hail, storm, you can lose everything. But that's the magic about it. Because if you can produce this year, it will be next. Maybe the production is very low. And that's very important to tell it to the final consumers. That expect the same quality every year, the same lower price, if possible every year, and costant in production. Is that a difficult balance where you want to create a brand out of Kairosa, or a certain key score that people seek because of its brand value. It has a story and has a character that we try to, as well as juxtapose or at least against the idea that I'm only going to produce what that vineyard gives me. And that could be substantially different. Well, let's put this way. I think he's the grandson of Ornalaya that they produce his wine in Patagonia. He makes his Pion of the Warns shut shop. Yeah, it's a sense of Sasikaya. Yes, that's like a Sasikaya. His his biodynamic Pion of the Warn from Patagonia is radically different from year to year because of what how he is completely natural. I mean, natural, but we put a number on the labels and the number is the vintage. That's it, right? Each vintage is different. The wines should be different. Yeah, because some vintage are very hot and dry. Some are the opposite, quite rainy. So it's very hard to produce the same quality or the same wine. Don't get me wrong. There's not bad, best or wrong vintage. If we produce wine, it's only because the grapes are good and the wine is good. So if we put it on the bottle for sure is outstanding. But the wines can be different because it's telling a different stories, which is a different vintage. I suppose I suppose the brand recognition, not the label of the bottle, but how the wire maker blends what he's given or he's she's given. And you just said something so important that I try to say I said a different way, but you said it better more eloquently actually, which is there are no such thing if the wine like he said is put in the bottle by an honest winery, not honest being that not cheating people, but honest in that they deliver a product that represents that time in that place. That there are no bad vintages. There's only different vintages. 100% right. Of course, there are some vintages because you know the beauty of wine is there's not a picture. The wine is changing through years. So there are wines. Sometimes we seek the perfect balance. Some wine, some vintages they have the perfect balance early. You need to wait a little bit more. You know, in Tuscany, we everyone talks about 15 and 16 vintage, which are outstanding remarkable vintage, very hot and dry. So the wines are a bit radier to drink. So maybe the peak is a bit early. Right now you open and they're just outstanding. Some older vintages a bit colder and rainier. Maybe they need a little bit more here to find that peak, but they're going to find it. And when they're going to find it, they're going to be outstanding. How many years your brother will be making wine? It's not making wine. Yeah, now he's doing consultancy. So he's still in wine and economy consultancy. How many years? Oh, that's a good question. It should be around 15 years from here. How long do you think it takes for a wine maker like your brother or anybody at Shatugi Square to have a grasp for what that piece of land is doing? You know, for sure the more vintage you have in your background, the better, but just because each one is different than two of the other one. So every year you learn something new, but you don't know if you're going to use it the next one or not. So the more time the better, I will say, because they were talking about because you only get I'm let's say you comes out of school and you're making wine. Maybe you get 40 vintages under your belt. If you're only working one atmosphere, one atmosphere. I mean, that doesn't seem like a lot in my opinion for a career, but that's what it is. It's such a slow industry, right? And I've heard proprietors say, you know, it's going to take 100 years. And so this is a legacy product that we don't know what's going to happen. And the question really comes down to what you just said, which is I wonder how many vintages it takes for a wine maker to have an understanding a small understanding of the differences in the weather and the soil types and the things that are going on in the vineyard that they could. You said also earlier that you could taste that grape before it's picked and try and have an understanding of what it's going to be. It's a possible. It is, but that's the hardest part. So only the master with a lot of experience can do that. But actually that's the base of the special the Bordeaux, the Bordeaux way. And in Italy, we're a little bit it's a little bit different than in France, but in Bordeaux, most of the decisions are taken by only testing, testing grapes, testing the seeds to choose the perfect moment to pick the grapes. And then after fermentation, they taste the wine and they decide how to blend it. And that's fascinating because when you taste those wines and I had the chance to taste it, which is very interesting that you are testing wines that just finish the malactic fermentation, which means they're still a little bit warm, sometimes a bit fizzy, very high tannins. And imagine testing those wines by thinking that how they will be performed in five years, one in the market or 20 years. That's incredible. That's the art. I think that's the art of it. I tell people this once in a while. You could pick a grape in Bordeaux, you may or low let's say, in a sandwich of AC and Tuscany, and from a chemical metric stamp on a chemical but a metric standpoint, pH, acid, sugar content, they could be exactly the same. Yeah, very similar. But then you tasted the taste is so different. And that that becomes the art of the blending and the art of making the wine. But is that something when it comes to today's consumer, you're flying all over the country, all over the world probably showing people the chiroreuse tell them the story. What's the response like for the different generations? What the generation is now a Gen Z. I guess the ones are drinking there. We're already past the millennials who we gave up on. But how they're responding to this. Well, it really depends. Of course, I get the chance to travel all over the world for Chiarosa and especially in Asia and US, which are the main market, of course, outside Italy and Europe. It really depends. There are of states of countries. But yeah, in general, you see how different areas or different people see the wine in different ways. But one thing one thing is true that if you have beauty in front of you, everyone can see that's the good and that's the same for wine. That's a great point because and I believe this whole arguably whether. But I have good friends now that because of our relationship over the last 40, 50 years of developed a palette for wine. Almost everybody can agree when you put a properly made wine in front of them. There's something unique. The other night we went to dinner and you know, they're not the wife is not necessarily academically associated with wine doesn't really care to hear the stories. But she left that dinner saying, wow, thank you for the wines of wines were excellent. I brought a Grand Cru burgundy and a chef to the school actually. And that made me feel good because she had no idea what she was drinking. She had no idea of the pedigree. I know she could go to the memory. But it was clear that the wines were structured properly and made properly. And you're not that like the flavors necessarily have a good wine. But you can recognize the structure and the quality of the wine making just like you can look at the quality of a painting or a building. Same thing. And that's a beauty. Yeah. And so that makes you feel really good and people recognize that part even though we have to know a lot more than understand that but that's part of it. You know, I get to do the best part because I can touch and I can feel the final consumer. I can feel the smile. I can feel the eyes where they see this beauty. But from a wine maker in background, imagine all the toughest part. So for me, it's also part of my role when I go back to Caerosa to share this beauty also to the team that made it possible. What kind of questions do you get when you make your presentation? And first of all, when you're doing this, are you with consumers this trip or are you with distributor reps? Are you trying to usually do a little bit of mix? So there's the wine spectator event running. So I was also there like pulling the wines. And here you have a mix of everybody. So you have the final consumers, you have restaurants, just so many, you have distributor importers. And then I'm just going around with my different distributors depending on the state where usually we meet only with restaurants and so many. at the consumer event or the type of event you do the wine specter is It was San Diego and then I'll do Tampa. What kind of questions do people ask you? But you know, every kind of question, some people don't really know Italy, so they won't understand where exactly, neatly, we are located. Some people want to know the variety. Some people usually, the first thing they do is they check the alcohol content before even listening to the stories. And some other people just don't say anything, want to listen to stories and then they post questions. So in those kind of events, you really see every possible scenario. But. You had to be rather flexible, you know? Yeah, you know, sometimes people don't really want to understand the technical part, but they want a little bit more the emotional part. They want to be transported in taskanye, in the hills. They want to imagine themselves being there with this glass of wine. Some other people are really interested in the technical. The percentage of the blend, the aging and type of soils, etc. They have hospitality, and totally, yeah, we do. It's very important. Of course, we are in a small city, so there's not much tourism just walking in, but we're doing hospitality, we're investing on that, we're building a small warehouse with hospitality area just down the hill. So it's closer to the main street, so people can stop by just for a quick tasting, or maybe come and join us in the winery for a longer tasting. Where's the podcast host guest corner, Jother? We didn't plan it, but still we are working on it, we are building it, so maybe I can put a nice word to have a corner where we can do that. It's always one of my questions. Well, no, because it. One of the things I've probably seen in Bordeaux, which was not hospitable, I don't mean they were not being friendly, but the hospitality side of wine trade in Bordeaux was not part of the equation even 20 years ago. You couldn't walk into a tasting room and taste, and now you can in many places. They prefer appointments. In fact, I'll never forget going to Vien Expo in 1993, you just didn't show up. They would prefer weeks in advance to know that you're coming. That was just the nature of the beast. Along comes Napa, the wine was your open, the welcome visitors, a little bit different post-COVID, but it's still that way. But it seems like in Bordeaux, even in Santa Miguel, they've created the hospitality side of wine. For sure, the last few years, the last decades, every wine region in the world invests a lot in that. If a short Bordeaux is a very good example, where everything changes. And now you can visit almost every winery. They're investing a lot in hospitality, they're doing a lot with small group, big groups. And that's very important, because we have beautiful stories to share, beautiful wine to share. So the best way is just to open the doors to heavy people in and to share this amazing. Well, you know, tourism is up. Obviously, when I travel, I make a point of finding wineries to go visit, not a armad, even in the Midwest of America, where you take terrible wines. Which is interesting to me, because the Midwest of America was the heart of the wine business before provision. And then afterwards, by then it had evolved to America, to California, et cetera. And now it's coming back. There's a guy in Kansas who's growing these bizarre American varietals that. I mean, they're really interesting wines, at least. In Long Island and New York, all those places are becoming important, Virginia, interesting parts of the analogy. But, you know, tourism, the tourism of wine is up all over the world. Yeah, that's a strong trend, and for sure. And that's the string of wine, right? We mentioned at the beginning, we were saying, "It's not just about the liquid, but it's about the experience behind it." And there's no better way to experience it. So, to visit the wineries, which usually are in amazing areas, and to share a glass of wine, understand the wine. Because I believe that now people are more interested to see what's behind the production. So, being there, seeing the facilities, but mostly having different glass in front of you, and understand the different between each other. And most of people that say, "I don't understand about wine, but when they have two different glasses in front of them, they will see the difference." And that's the best way to do it. It's just to see and enjoy this experience. That's one of my favorite stories. I don't think my friend listens to the show anymore, but he did. He's heard it. And we were in Napa years ago. We had a winery called Clopikus, and we had two cabernets in front of us at the moment. One was two different vineyards, or one of them might have been a blend of all their vineyards, or one might have been designated, both 2014's. And it was sort of commenting on that, you and I would say, "I smell herbs, I smell the soil, whatever we detect on the glass of wine." And he looked at me, because I think that's, you know, I think you're full of BS. You know, it's wrong. I go, "What do you mean?" He goes, "You guys just say this stuff, and it doesn't mean anything." I said, "Well, you have two cabernets in front of you right now, and they're both the same vintage for the same year, but they're different wines. Do they taste different to you?" He said, "Yes." I go, "You're on your way." Whether you can define it or not, it's not the issue. But that's the beauty of what we're trying to portray. I've been working with the Armenian wine trade a lot lately, because of my heritage. And they're trying to get global recognition. They were at wine Paris, and I actually have four shows coming out this week on the trade. And it's so difficult. I mean, you imagine, here you are, you've got an established region, an established winery, an established grapes, an established path to market the wine. But here's a country that no one has really heard of the country, let alone know they have wine, and then varietals you can't even pronounce. Trying to get traction in the world of wine. Imagine the difficulty. To be huge. Yeah, the headwinds you have doing this every day, trying to get done. And therein lies the reason that people love this industry. It takes, or the people that survive this industry, it takes so much passion. Thanks so much energy, and of course, for these headwinds, to get through these headwinds. Yeah, it takes energy, it takes passion, and it takes time. So nowadays, of course, everybody knows Bordeaux. Most of people know Tascanism, but I've been to places where people don't really know where Tascanism is, or where Tascanism is. But they all know Bordeaux, they all know Purgundy. Of course, the time. If you think about Giscour, it's producing wine for more than 450 years. In the same place, the same vineyard. It's 400 plus 50 years talking about that wine, producing that sending wine. It takes about time. Caryrocyte is a young project, but of course now we are in a strong region, and we're working great job. And of course, Giscour is helping out us in the world to be known, but it takes time. You know, what I love about the European model of this appellation control, etc. You know, in Italy, in particular as well, as France, you don't just protect the grapes, varieties, the land, the area, the structure. And we talk about France and Italy. There's such two different dynamically different cultures, but they had the same respect for the land, the appellation. And so you have your cured meat by region, you have your pastas by region. They're protected to the extent of you, you know, balsamic vinegar, and Modena, all those things. Keep an identity. The Americas have that. We have a region called Napoli, you know, Sonoma, that you can make that definite. But we don't have regional characteristics that are defended by the government or defended by the society. And I envy that. And a lot of people think that's a curse. It's so important, especially in Italy, we have so much complexity in everything. Of course, wine. But then can be all of our, can be about plants in general, the new cultural, the new food, the new past, the new everything. So when you have such complexity, it's important to protect it. Do you think this might be a little question, that the average Italian that lives in a little village makes their foods of the village and drinks the wines, drinks the wine they make in the basement probably, right? Yeah, mostly they will that. They will be producing the wine or doing the wine, the wine the basement in the area. I still pretty common. I grew up with my father. We are from Milan, the north. So there's not much wine in our area. But I grew up with my father buying the Damidiana, which is French is the damidjan, which is a big bottle of 50, like 10 gallons more or less. And you buy it like bulk and then you take it home and you bottle it with friends. So culturally this is quite normal, everywhere in Italy. And if you're in an area where you can grow a little bit and produce wine, then you do your own wine, your home. So in the south of Italy. - These are the, it's quite normal to have your garden, your grapes, and you produce your own wine. - I think this, so, and I think the Americans missed that. They missed that, well, actually in LA, when wine came to LA in the 1700s, late 1700s, you could go down to the local guy and get your demi-john filled with wine and bring it home, you could do that. You can't do it anymore. It's against the law to do that, which is kind of a ridiculous right? And my father grew up in Cairo, and his father would send him down the road. There was the pharmacy, which was by trade eventually, and in the pharmacy, were the sweet and the dry vats, and he would get a liter of each and bring them home my grandfather, and blend them. Wow, does that speak of culture? And here you're talking about a little village in Italy, sure it happened in France, even happened in America for a long time. How ingrained in the humanity is really as wine, when you think about those kinds of experiences. We're done, actually, we're out of time, which is hard to believe, but I had to tell you a story, they just thought of this, we were talking, one of my shows that just came out. We were in Armenia, we were over by the Iranian border. And they say the Iranian is, in fact, during all this war stuff, they had stationed a couple of news reporters in that village in Armenia, because they expected the Iranian people to come back to Armenia, to get out of the war zone to come to Armenia. And there are kiosks on the side of the road with women and men selling their homemade wines in Coca-Cola plastic bottles. And so as part of one of these shows, the director goes, let's go taste some water, go, look, I'm not tasting that. I mean, are you kidding? We ran across the street, and there's this woman's beautiful, beautiful grape clusters. I mean, unbelievable. And the grape there in Armenia is called Adani, and the main state grape. If she poured me this glass of wine, and I'm like, this is completely palatable. And then she says, it was a two-liter thing. I go, I wanted to buy some from her, 'cause she took care of us, but I don't want to buy two liters. So she says no problem in Armenia, and I don't speak Armenian. She takes a funnel and puts it in a one-liter jar, just before she's in there. - Put the coffee in it. - I go, this is really living wine, right? It's so ingrained in their culture, and probably the villages of Italy like that, it's the same. It's a really an honor to be part of the industry, you know? - Yeah, I mean, it's beautiful, but you know, it's not just about, it's part of the life, part of the culture. It's part of our quotidianity. And it's, I wish you all the luck in the world teaching people this as you travel the country, the world's, and having that one-on-one conversation. They're all gonna remember having a conversation with Evo at the wine spectator thing. We tasted this by the dynamic wine called Kairosa, and that's how it works. - I hope that's really true. - That's probably true. - I'll do my best. - Cheers. - Thank you.