‘Beef’ Season 2 With Creator Lee Sung Jin. Plus, ‘Euphoria’ Season 3, Episode 3 and ‘House of the Dragon’ S3 Teaser.

low energy unfocused foggy you might be dehydrated whether it's hot yoga over 100 degree weather or too much sun gator light with a specialized blend of five electrolytes was scientifically designed to help move fluids into the body faster for rapid rehydration shop now at retailers nationwide gator light hydrates faster than water is it in you symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration consult a health care professional if symptoms persist starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like shopify they have the tools you need to start and grow your business from designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond shopify can help with everything you need there's a reason millions of companies like mattel heinz and all birds continue to trust and use them with shopify on your side turn your big business idea into sign up for your one dollar per month trial at shopify.com shopify.com i need supports to have to clear the room stand up and walk now hello and welcome to the watch my name is chris ryan i am an editor the ringer.com and joining me in the studio a man who funnily enough moonlights as a little john impersonator who does james brown songs it's really true at weddings sandy greenwald oh you got quiet well i that was a mouthful andy you handled it well i thought you were gonna do a little john woods it's great to see you man we're talking about euphoria episode three today we're also talking about beef season two again because we have sunny lee coming in to talk to us about the show that he created and the second season and a little bit about x-men which he's also i thought that was exciting writing and we're very excited to hear about that first let me just say the watch at spotify.com feel free to continue to send us ask us anything emails yeah emails that are more pertinent to this this podcast podcast the watch pod underscored instagram you can watch us on ringer dash tv on youtube and you can watch us on spotify where you can also listen to us as well as many other platforms that carry this podcast hbc helena bomb carter leaves the white lotus disappointing by mutual consent sounds like mutual consent mutual decision it sounds like it wasn't working yes which has happened before on the show i believe and that mike white has an exacting vision for how he wants these parts to be played and how he wants these parts to be and that she was no longer the right fit so we don't know if it was a performance thing or if it was a reconsideration of the whole character i doubt it was like oh it turns out helena bonham carter can't read you know what i mean i'm sure she's like an accomplished actress for for three four decades at this point i think i like the way you said i'm sure she's an accomplished actress you're like i don't know i never saw room with the view the only thing i was going to say is this is the downside to the the fantasy casting league that kind of operates around White Lotus is there's so much attention paid to it that I can imagine like pretty big shows getting away with like, we tried this, it didn't work out. Like it's kind of swept under the rug. Constantly. And that's better for everyone. Yeah. But this was like, HBO released a statement, you know? I think it's like, we've talked before about how sometimes it'll be like, so-and-so has joined the cast of this Justified spinoff. And I'm like, this has been shot. That's often the case. Yeah, but this is more like, you know, there's speculation, there's rumors, there's who would you like to see at the White Lotus next season? And live by the sword, die by the sword, I guess. Eric Stoltz still answers questions about the two weeks he spent filming as Marty McFly. That's just from you though. You emailing him, ask him anything, questions. The restraining orders language was vague. So DMs are fine as far as I can tell. More HBO news to hit, which is the Hot D season three teaser dropped. And as Kai Raley pointed out, we're losing touch with the old ways. A teaser should not be three minutes long. Yeah, this is a trailer. Yes. I believe it's called the teaser on YouTube though, correct? Yeah. But like, what are they going to say in the trailer that like some of these dragons get got? No, it's supposed to be 57 seconds and it's supposed to be like, like rhythmic and just like pictures of the dragons and shit. It's not supposed to be like, a big fight would have happened. Just picture you just kind of vibing out. Like McConaughey. The image of a dragon. The image of another dragon. We should do it. We should do our own teaser that's cut to McConaughey's, you know, beating the chest song. Don't threaten Kai with a good time. He's already Googling it. Want to go viral? Yes. Follow me, brother. I am excited because I feel like they have no more room to, uh, delay and must get to the fighting on this show. Um, and you know, James Norton being added to the cast is exciting. I'm a big fan of his. Yeah, you've been supporting him for a while. McMafia for life. Uh, what about you? You're feeling a little bit more upbeat about how says that? Yeah, I mean, I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand, this looks cool and propulsive and like we're finally getting the action scenes that we were promised and the story is going to get on with it and really have some consequences in teeth. On the other hand, I kind of want to know what that Wyrmwood tree is thinking. You know what I mean? Yeah. Wyrmwood? Weirwood? What is it? I don't remember anymore. Weirwood, yeah. It's like that tree spent a season having Matt Smith talk to it and I kind of want to know what the tree's whole thing is. Like one episode, like bottle episode of interiority. Do you think the tree is kind of like Dr. Melfi of House of the Dragon? Yeah, and then we get to see the tree go home and talk to another tree played by Peter Bogdanovich, but like, you know, done tastefully with AI. Yeah. This is why they can't handle me in that room. I was, I was across the studio a lot from the show and again, Eric Stoltz's lawyers arrived and were like, you're also not allowed in this space. Were you outside of the House of the Dragon lot with the boombox? Justice for the tree. Yeah, I'm excited. I, this is funnily enough, the show that I chose to spoil for myself. So I extensively read about this era in Targaryen history. Extensively read? On Wikipedia. I didn't quite get, because I knew that this one did not have that classic George prose. You know, it was more of a. Just picture it. It's the way, like, my old New York therapist sat in an Eames chair and would have a thousand page book about the 97th Congress and be like, aha, well, this is when lawmaking really changed. That's you with this. With this. But I am excited to see how they execute it, you know, and I don't think that they'll be deviating for canon. That's exciting. I'm curious to see whether or not there is any relationship creatively. I doubt it, because I think that these were being shot relatively parallel to one another. Between Seven Kingdoms, Lessons learned. Being like, oh, we can't have a little bit of a laugh here and there. I bet no. I bet a hard no. But the best case scenario for this, I think, is that they. We thought that coming out of the original Game of Thrones series that the sort of slower pace and the more thoughtful approach that HBO was taking towards spin-offs was going to equate with entertainment that was like, just knew what it was doing. Act like you've been here before. And I think that the House of Dragon in Genesis was a little bit bumpy. And it wasn't a one-to-one translation. Night of the Seven Kingdoms is so specific and came out of the gate pretty much perfect. Fully formed. Fully formed. I think it took House of the Dragon time to get its bearings. And then there were, you know, exterior circumstances that delayed it and COVID and all of that stuff. And then the production delays, et cetera, et cetera. All this is to say, the best case version of it is them saying, we have our cute, funny show. We have our hellfire war show. And we'll take it from there. Yeah. The only other thing news-wise that I wanted to mention was a trailer that dropped today, I believe, for the For All Mankind spin-off show, Star City. I want to preface this by saying, I spoiled this one. In that I have very, I've read very deeply on alternate histories of the space program in which Russia won. I think that if you had asked me 48 hours ago what my interest level in another take, but also, an alternative read on history would be from the For All Mankind world, I would be like, I'm good. I watched two seasons, maybe two and change of For All Mankind. I think if I had to summarize my exit strategy from that show, I just felt like it became very literal for me. I wasn't being really energized by either the writing or the direction. And so, it's almost a show that I feel like if you, I wouldn't go so far as to say you could just read the recaps and get it, but I would say just like the experiment kind of wore off for me. I am so excited for this after watching this trailer and that has not happened in a long time with a trailer for a television show where they essentially were like, you know what's good? Chernobyl. Well, the television show, Chernobyl. The television show, Chernobyl. We are at the 40th anniversary of the event. So, this is starting in 1969, the space race, but this alternative space race of the For All Mankind timeline told from the Russian, the Soviet perspective in the style of Chernobyl, which means all the Russians are English people or, you know, the greater English area. Speaking English or fluent Russian? No, speaking English. And it's a Reef Eye Fans, Reef Eye Fans plays seemingly the main scientist and it very, very, very much feels like it is a show that was like Chernobyl really worked, again, the show, and we want to. In retrospect, you're right. Right. And we want to continue that vibe a little bit. Now, I'm sure there are other influences because, like, it also feels a little Thomas Alfredson's adaptation of Tinker Tailor and has some kind of tactile espionage to it. I'm very, very, very excited for this. I mean, the affection for Chernobyl extended to them saying, that guy who plays the firefighter, Adam Nagaitis, let's get him in as a cosmonaut. So it's visually, I mean, you're recognizing people from Chernobyl when you watch this. I was also very struck by the complete aesthetic commitment to the bit by the trailer. It is right up our alley. If it is Cold War espionage and then maybe also space, that's pretty cool. I was impressed by the specificity of vision because telling any streamer that we're going to do a spinoff of your, not flagship show and not even, like, attention-grabbing number one hit show, but a respected performer for you, but this spinoff is going to be awesome. By definition and by aesthetics. All those guys were on the wrong side. And less flashy. Yeah. Is remarkable. So I respect that and I appreciate it. I will check it out. I'm a big Anna Maxwell Martin fan. She was in Line of Duty and the Sharon Horgan show Motherland. She's fantastic in Motherland. So she plays sort of like the head of security at the Star City base. So I'm looking forward to that. I would say the thing with For All Mankind, I'm trying to think if there's something I would put in its place, but I don't think I would. That's probably the number one show for me that I wish I could have found my way into because I think the creativity behind it and the way that it develops season to season from, like, one sliding doors moment of history and then just playing out that history is so imaginative and cool sounding. And I think I finished the first season and made it a little bit into the second and the execution of it, and maybe it's changed or, you know, as it's continued to grow. I found it a hard show to watch. The episodes were 59, 61 minutes, 63 minutes, and maybe that's what you were talking about with the literalism. Yeah, I think that's basically it. It felt like a slog, honestly, especially knowing that I was so behind. And this is before, you know, the euphoria rule went into effect where we actually don't have to watch all of the shows we've covered. You could jump right into the last few episodes. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere? And realize you're missing something like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime same day delivery as you're back, getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably. So you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. Let's talk about euphoria. All right. Because we have a lovely chat with Sonny coming up. Obviously, spoilers for last night's episode of euphoria. I didn't think that we were going to get the wedding so soon. I thought that we would maybe get more intercast interactions. So I don't believe we actually got Rue Zendaya, Sydney Sweeney two shot ever. With Jules and Maddie? Mm-hmm. She was sitting with, but she attended the wedding of Nate and Cassie and did not share the screen with either of them. Didn't seem like it. And I thought that this one was yet another shift stylistically, subtly. A lot of the Nate and Cassie stuff bordered on Ari Aster to me in a very cool way. But a little birdie on my shoulder tells me that maybe the joke's not so funny anymore. Is the birdie still on your shoulder or? Yeah. You should check. Go ahead and sing. You want me to sing? Yeah. Because I like the episode, but I have a feeling maybe perhaps did not. I did not like this episode. I found it unpleasant to sit through. And I wonder, in the spirit of generosity and in the spirit of celebrating a beautiful union between deserving, loving souls, I should probably ask you some questions and cede the floor to a degree. And also maybe because- This is where like my lockbox of- Euphoria memories may be a little out of reach for me because there's some characters like in the interactions between them where I was like, and that I feel like I remember this, but go ahead. I also think at some point we should bring in Kaya just because it's been a long time since I've planned a wedding. And I wonder if there were any like, you know, tips, tips and tricks that you picked up while watching this. I, okay, I thought like the most, to my mind, the most successful scene of the episode was the scene between Eric Dane's Cal character and Jules. Mm-hmm. At the bar at the wedding. My enjoyment of that scene was foreshortened by the fact that I know nothing of their shared history. You've done some very bad things to Jules. That was clear. I enjoyed the scene because it carried a sense of history and gravity between characters that is the hallmark of continuing television dramatic series. Um, and I thought, again, we talked about this last week, that Eric Dane's performance, most likely his final performance, I thought they treated it all with- A great deal of respect by making him just be drunk and not addressing the fact that his, his, his voice was affected by ALS, et cetera, et cetera. So I thought that was a strong and interesting scene. So I'm bringing that up first because my engagement with that scene was severely limited by not knowing anything about the history. Mm-hmm. And I wonder how much of that you could just extrapolate to the episode as a whole because so much of the wedding, to my mind, either it stands on its own, which I don't think that it did, then does it stand on its own as a culmination of- Of two plus years of these characters interacting. And I don't know if it did, primarily because the main character of the show didn't even talk to the people whose wedding she was attending. Yeah, it was a weird one. I, so I could go through the various, like, when the woman, Bebe, shows up. She was, you know, an earlier iteration of the show. Um, you know, obviously Maddie used to date Nate. Cassie essentially steals Nate from her. Right. There's a whole thing over the first two seasons of these, uh, videos. Of Jules and Cal together that Cal had taken for, obviously, his own pleasure, but for, like, become, like, an element of blackmail out there. Uh, and Nate's involvement with that whole scenario, um, is, I don't know if it's, if it's ambiguous, but it, it is, like, that scene between Nate and Jules and, and between Elordi and Hunter Schaefer, I thought was quite good. I don't even know entirely what Nate was trying to communicate there, where it was, like, you love who you love kind of thing. Right. Um, and what his feelings really are for Jules at, at the end of the day. Regardless of that, I, it, it seemed like if, if you were doing the, um, parasocial, like, I'm speculating about, like, who was on set for what days kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. This is the kind of thing that, like, me, is why I can't watch the morning show anymore sometimes. Because it's, like, I can't watch people do one, like, like, clearly not be in the same room together when they're shooting a scene. Or filmmaking that is chosen to create. That illusion for whatever reason. Um, so, yeah, it did really feel like Zendaya did a day of shooting there. Mm-hmm. But then, like, they were, like, now let's put her back in the Alamo, Laurie. Which remains. Crime saga. The much more compelling, much more, um, electric storyline of the show. I think that the, the argument the show has been making for style over substance, which, again, that's how I'm choosing to engage with it. There may be more substance. I think it's a totally. Awaiting me. Yeah. If I had watched the previous season, which I did not. Yeah. I think that that gambit works more successfully when the characters had been siloed into their particular aesthetic genre pieces. So, Cassie and Nate making each other crazy inside of this scar-faced, yellow, suburban nightmare world. Mm-hmm. Um, that kind of, that kind of worked for me. The wedding felt like a set piece in search of a, a reason to exist. All of the, and maybe, so, again, maybe aesthetically, this is, you tell me, is this what Euphoria has always been? Because it seemed like a chance for all of the cast members to dress in wild ways that maybe communicated some interior, interiority through their clothing. Mm-hmm. And how they chose to approach things. So, I picked up on the Maddie relationship with Nate because of the way it kept cutting to her eyes. Sure. As this was going on. But I did not, in the course of this celebration, feel much, any, feel really any kind of character grounding. To have empathy for them while it was taking place. It was like, here's an opportunity to maybe let Cassie experience a swing of emotions or to, I think the negative vision of it is, just sort of punish the actor more. Because I don't really see what, I didn't really see how the character was being served or the actor was being served. What she had to do during those wedding set pieces while everyone around her is threatening or yelling about what's been going on. Well, it's interesting because we were talking last week, I think, a little bit about how, um, the Cassie and Nate thing seems to be happening on a different level. A different television show. And then when you make that the sort of main arena, it almost muted what the Alexis Demi character and what the Zendaya character and what the Hunter Schaefer characters were even doing. Yeah. You know, and, uh, I'll say this. I've said this, I think, a couple of times over the course of this season. I am never bored for one second while watching this. Like, maybe it's just like the visual panache. Maybe it's the cutting. Maybe it is the wild swings between genres. genre that happen from scene to scene so that you're like, Like, well, we're back in a fucking Western gangster Tarantino show or now I'm in the most harrowing parts of Midsommar, you know? Like, you swing back and forth and in every scene, I find an image or a moment like Sidney Sweeney's bloodshot eyes as Maude Apatow is like, her sister Lexi is like. That's her sister? That's her sister, yeah. And her sister is like. I just need a second. It's almost like we have to step down from it. I got to go for a walk and I got to get out some stuff that I don't think we should put onto the internet. Okay, continue. That's her sister. And the conversation where she's just like, are you okay? And she's like, why are you asking me that? It's the best day of my life. It's fucking good stuff, man. But I was thinking about this because I'll just keep going with it. I was thinking about this with the saran wrap scene. So Jules is becoming a sugar. Baby? Sugar baby. And is dating guys with the understanding that they're like, she'll provide a certain experience for them and that they're going to pay her for that. But there's different, like there's variants. Like each guy wants a different thing. And she happens upon a plastic surgeon named Ellis who becomes her main. This is Sam Trammell. Who is on True Blood. Is it Trammell or Trammell? I was going to, you know what I decided to do in that moment? Let it fly. Well, because like I think of Alan Trammell, the Tigers. The Tigers. Shortstop with Lou Whitaker. And Trammell Tillman from Severance. Right. So whatever his, however he chooses to pronounce it, I'm with him. But that is, that scene, like this sort of sequence culminates with Jules going to his apartment. And this incredible piece of Hans Zimmer. And the Zimetz music playing. And I truly do want to know if Hans Zimmer was like, so describe what I'm making music for. Hans Zimmer just Googling mummification fetish. And the Ellis character wraps Jules in saran wrap around her entire body, except for her mouth and nose so she can breathe. And then starts making out with her and is like, I'm going to keep, I just might keep you forever. It is just such a stunning image. Yeah. I suppose it's problematic. I, I, I've not yet started to unpack how it's mummifying her seems, you know, laden with meaning. But I don't know. You just like, when do you see something like that? Yeah. Look, I mean, I'm with you. Imagine. I said, that's the kind of thing where it's like, as an image, I don't even know what it's supposed to mean in relationship to the rest of you for you. It's the same screen I watched Daniel Tiger on with my kids. And now look at us. Dirty. Now I had to get a new TV. Just threw it straight in the garbage. Thanks, Sam Levinson. Yeah. If you were to engage with this show, and I've tried to, and maybe, look, maybe this is just the problem that was always waiting for me with my watching of Euphoria, which is now it's becoming an ongoing television show for me, not just a series of striking directorial images. And the problems are starting with my reaction to it. The series of images that we're seeing on the screen are not boring and they are striking and there's a lot of thought. Uh, given into each one and the composition of them. And I continue to just be blown away by the color story of the show and how much work went into not just on the day by the cinematographers and the, the, the camera teams, but like later in color correction. To be like, that's what it has to look like. That's how it's going to pop. What they're filming is like, the, the, the Rue selling guns sequence is like, this is, this is awesome stuff. That said, this is, and maybe this is where we differ and this is a healthy source of debate. I fundamentally don't find sex, work, guns, and drugs interesting in a vacuum or in a photograph. I want, I know this is our last episode. Go take it up with your sister, Maude Apatow. You don't find sex, work, guns, and drugs. Just on their own, disconnected from humanity or human beings. What if you shoot them in VistaVision though? Well, okay. Say more. That like Zendaya playing with an AR-15 is a hell of an image. It's also ultimately to me kind of impotent and lame because it's just Zendaya with guns. It's not about anything. It's about performing. It's about play acting. And I felt the same way about the gangster eating pie while his associate beats the shit out of a Lordy and cuts his toe off. That's nice to call him an associate. Oh, what do you think their relationship is? Do you think he gets healthcare? That's what I was like thinking. You think he's an EVP in the construction company? You know, he might be a task rabbit. Like we're all Uber drivers to a degree now. But you know what? So like as a series of images, it is well constructed. But what does it signify? Like I just found it to be, what's the word I'm looking for when I talk about this show? Morally bankrupt. I don't think you think that. Let's throw that out there. No, that image. Though I'm not going on that high horse. I can't get there anymore with my knees. But I'm just saying the sequence of pictures are starting to dissociate from any kind of engagement that I potentially would. With the people who are in the pictures. I would imagine. And it just feels like what the priority is may be differing. Now, when we go back to the Rue, Alamo, Laurie stuff, I think it's at its best. It's slightly above Tarantino light thus far. But it's engaging and it's well shot. And its central figure is one of the great actors we have at the moment doing something unique that she's clearly interested in exploring. And so I'm in. I am into that show. And so maybe you could, we can write, maybe we could describe. Move on to next week under the idea that, well, this episode was about other things that I'm less interested. Possibly. My two cotton rejoinders to that would be one. And your mileage may vary on the social commentary being offered by Euphoria. But there is that very like sort of darkly comic line that Rue says where she's like, you may be, you know, thinking to yourself like, like she's selling guns. Yeah. But I assure you they were all going to Mexico. You know, like that, that kind of like, does that make you feel any better about? Things that I think the no, I think the Rue voice. And again, I'm not assuming intent here, but I think that the Rue, the Rye Rue voice, which is undercutting, which is pointing out some of the, you know, hanging a lantern on it, as we may say in the TV industry about like how ludicrous or hyped up some of it may be helps. And I think on a very basic level, like it just strikes me as someone who is making a new season of something that has to connect. Dots and advanced story in areas that he and the people involved may be less interested in. I also wonder that story has the juice. It does have the juice and it is a good story so far. And this woman's sort of quest for even like she says things like I want to go legit. And it's like, like, does she have any interest in going legit? Does she even care in that Alamo interrogation of the idea while very Tarantino and it's like, let's do a history lesson. You know, it might be a little rote for people, but like, yes, if it was just the Rue story, that would be one thing. The switching between these couple of other storylines and the way in which it happens kind of makes me wonder whether this is the most expensive and beautiful experience of swiping through reels that I've ever seen, because my brain actually does respond to. And now something else, a run, a cat, you know, like an instruction on how to putt like. Like, that's how we get some insight into what that's like a woman wrapped in saran wrap, like a gun sale, like a wedding. It's like these these things don't sit. Creamy pint of Guinness, plate of pasta, steamed white fish, creamy pint of Guinness. We can all play this game. Yeah, but that is kind of how euphoria feels. It feels like short form video made with tons of money on a wide screen. Yeah, I think that whenever historically when I have played the amoral card, it is a conversation ender. I'm not trying to walk away from. This project, because I think that what it first of all, the headline remains what you've said each week. It's not boring. I did find some of the connective story tissue of this episode boring, but that's on me. I didn't watch the show. Right. I think that there is there is something to be said about something that is so extreme in its stylistic choices and in its points of view and what interests it collectively. Although when we say that, we pretty much mean Sam Levinson, that it is not like other things on TV. We may never get something like this again with this level of celebrity engaged in something that, you know, that they were contractually obligated to be a part of years ago. I'm still on. Like, I don't think people did this against their will. No, no, no. I don't mean to say that, but I but you don't get. We've never had anything like this before. Yeah. And it is a fascinating if nothing else. And I think it is more than this. It will be a fascinating artifact of this era in which TV takes so long to make and the logistics are so challenging that you end up with a. Third season that is essentially both a new first season and also just a very bizarre sliding doors digression season based on what people are passionate about at the time they finally got the schedules aligned in the budget locked. Yeah, I'll just I mean, like even on an episode like this where it didn't quite hang together as much for me, or maybe it was like a little bit of a letdown because I wanted more fireworks between the main cast in one place. Maddie walking back to her sad apartment after a day in like the opulent Calabasas dream world. for better or for worse. for worse the saran wrap scene rue selling guns and the whole uh lori like paladin situation at the end was just like those are like four standout moments that honestly like on a bad episode euphoria for me still has like a couple of moments that are better than anything else i'm watching so i give it a lot of leeway do you did you have a particular reaction to like and now i'm just trying to do the i'm trying to do the work of someone who had watched the show but there was a scene when rue's driving when she's on the phone with the character who's an actor passed away right that's correct i'm curious to see how much i know that honoring angus's memory was a very significant motivational thing for for sam levinson in making this season entirely at least in the interviews that i write with him and i am curious to see how much he makes fez a character not that i think he's going to show up in any kind of way but that the idea that he is going to try and escape prison now is much different than oh we just hear about him in the background a bit well also the the genesis of the show right is both in terms of the background of what attracted sam to the storyline and then also the storyline that's the like the beating heart of the first two seasons is an addiction story right and a cast member passed away from an accidental drug overdose so you wonder if that if there's a if it's inspired by an accident or if they were motivated to make it in his honor i wonder what the thematic on-screen response to that event might and i i think if if if as seen in the in the trailers if colman domingo's character comes back into the fold i'm sure that will be a factor uh we should wrap up euphoria there i look forward to talking about it with you next week um kaya what's your flyer what's your flower budget yeah has it fluctuated all in the last few weeks i will say that um i know i'm like pretty badly wedding pilled at this point because i saw all those flowers and i was like i think that makes sense for 50k i mean it was very lovely do you think you'll get that kind of pep talk on your walk down the aisle like cassie got i can only hope yeah i i have to say that um this is a sidebar that i did want to bring up on this show one way or another that i i think it's incredible that it took the release of the michael jackson biopic for one of the most brilliant pieces of comedy of the last few years to finally be discovered by the mainstream which is the bubble thing which is john mulaney interviewing langston kerman as bubbles from last year's everybody's live talk to me talk to me talk to me those of us who were that we were we were with bubble shooting in the gym first of all we've known how funny that is but i only want to bring it up because it's a masterpiece and the first shot of the ice sculpture i did think was michael and bubbles right which i think was intentional but i i did think that it was john landis also was drinking the toilet i mean city sweetie being like i i look fat in this ice sculpture and him being like it'll you'll look better as it melts and she's like but i don't want my boobs to melt it's like where else are you gonna get that you know no it's it's like the it's like the old all mankind like show me the way it just it's from carl reiner and mel brooks to that you know what i mean it's just the way for a second by the way just in terms of canon that there was a moment when when sydney sweeney when cassie's yelling at nate and pops him in the eye with the champagne bottle that that nate jacobs was going to be like lord forgive me it's time to go back to the old me i thought that too because you planted that seed then he was just really really sweet to her and then he got his toe cut off when we talk about it next week we should probably i assume there'll be more about them in their happily married life that began maybe i'll do a lore download for you next week i just that might be my my job for next week because i don't want to do another week going on well the draft's over my schedule is clear i don't get those characters i don't understand and i don't understand the dynamic so maybe maybe maybe now uh that he has to get nas's money it'll you know you get the characters on beef though beef season two which is a show is this your segue a little we loved yes and uh i don't want to belabor it we can maybe touch if we want to talk a little bit more um broadly about the season we can hit it on thursday so we want to get into our interview with sonny lee which went on for about 45 50 minutes and was wonderful he talked a little bit about his writing process his pitching process which i thought was very interesting um and everything about uh casting beef season two with kaylee spaini and charles melton and oscar isaac and carrie mulligan the themes he was looking to discover um some stories from set really really exciting to talk to him he's he's an awesome interview subject and then some x-men and some x-men uh so let's get into our interview with sonny and we will be back on thursday for i would imagine okay top chef restaurant wars yeah i we hear you everybody asking us to watch america's culinary cup perhaps one day but i i have only so much time in the day for cooking shows frankly what about you i i all i too only have so much time in the day for cooking shows i'm with you but i have not watched it yet and i'm sure there's some other stuff i'm just forgetting right now so that's a hell of a tease thank you to kai kaya and uh sarah for shooting with us today and we'll be back on thursday enjoy this interview low energy unfocused foggy you might be dehydrated gatorade zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body with a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors great tasting hydration no matter where you're going shop now online or at retailers nationwide gatorade hydrates better than water is it in you symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration consult a health care professional if symptoms persist when you shop kroger delivery you can expect the savings you love and fresh groceries delivered to you in just a few minutes right to your door our refrigerated trucks keep your items cool while our associates are committed to getting every detail right carefully selecting and packing your order with care because bringing you fresh quality groceries is what we do best right now enjoy free delivery on orders of fifty dollars or more with your digital coupon restrictions apply c-site for details kroger fresh for everyone hey ryan reynolds here for mint mobile now i don't know if you've heard but mint's premium wireless is fifteen dollars a month but i'd like to offer one other perk we have no stores that means no small talk crazy weather we're having no it's not it's just weather it is an introvert's dream give it a try at mintmobile.com switch upfront payment of forty five dollars for three month plan fifteen dollars per month equivalent required new customer offer first three months only then full price plan options available taxes and fees extra see mintmobile.com so thanks you so much for joining the watch again man it's uh it's great to see you and congratulations on a fantastic season of beef um this is the fastest ever turnaround from loving a show to having the creator so thank you for that yeah now it's waiting right now i was like they like it i wanted to ask you a little bit i don't know if you think about things in these terms but i was trying to you know articulate a bunch of my feelings about the show and one of the ways i usually do that is try to describe genre and uh i came up with dark screwball for for this season of beef and i was curious if you would ever identified a genre or a micro genre for the season for yourself that maybe helped you find the tone um yeah the tone's hard on this one yeah it's like uh i came up with a formula season one that i just kind of did as a joke but it's weirdly stuck for everybody or i call it like 35 percent uh soprano early pta comedy where you're laughing at the broken psychology of people plus 35 percent like netflix bingeability slash white lotus water cooler movement moments plus 30 percent uh hirokazu korieda igmar bergman warm melancholic pathos which percentage of those percentages do you share with netflix because i i felt them lean in in the middle and i thought hey did you say bingeability they they weirdly like uh i think i think part of the reason i came up with the formula is to help them like understand the show yeah because it's like so hard season one especially to take what's in here and like get people to get on board and oddly that formula like worked for them they were like okay like as long as it's like balanced like that um and bella's like more coriata like that yeah i'm so sorry if there was a norwegian filmmaker named bingeability oh my god and you can just reference you know it's just like oh of course you know it'll be very bingeability and it's like yeah okay well he's blank check yeah weirdly uh they they uh have been i think it's like i try to treat the conversation with networks like uh just always explaining the why you know instead of like digging my heels or anything like i remember one time and i hope it's okay that i share this and if not i'm sorry netflix but uh they i think it was season one like episode three we were at an impasse like they just were like not like wanting to do the show anymore and uh and i like sent them a i think it was like a ted talk on this concept called the beholder share it's like an art history term about like why paintings like great paintings offer a lot of share to the eye of the beholder and i like explained to them like if a bed bath and beyond painting like people don't like because it's like this is a beach and there's no participation from the audience right and whereas mona lisa like you have to interpret it and wonder why she's smiling is she smiling even and like we had the whole like one hour zoom talking about this concept and by the end of it they're like okay no like we get it now and so uh they're like yeah we we see what you're trying to do in episode three like in terms of like the bull hold or share thing maybe like here's a little bit too confusing for us but if you're saying that the audience wants to participate great so like i find that i like talking like overly talking through everything gets me through some of these you're my hero that's incredible now genuinely do you think like what percentage because you're good at fractions do you think they were like this really moved me and changed my perspective about television versus he sent me a 55 minute video to watch i'm just gonna let him make the show we don't have to name names but i'm just wondering if uh i think it's probably both it's like a combination of all the things i mean that's why i like my pitches to to networks are so involved with you know i you know i went to upenn i was supposed to be an investment banker so powerpoint is like actually like my true medium you know i'd say even more than television and uh like i have these very involved like 50 minute videos pitches where i'm like photoshopping like the actors into existing frames from other movies and some of it almost is animated and there's like music and i like literally go through the beats of the pilot with score and then i even like have title cards in powerpoint that like i cut to as like to punctuate a pitch and i do all that to just not leave anything to anyone's imagination do you feel like you that is actually a creative act for you like do you feel like that's where the sort of creative ball starts rolling downhill totally yeah yeah and like weirdly i like thrive in that powerpoint medium it's all downhill from there yeah so season two which again i just think is really really amazing i loved watching it and i especially loved the way you built on what was season one and changed some things slowed some things down worked the dials a little bit to communicate i think better what the series of beef now that it's potentially ongoing is to you and to the audience and to the audience and to the audience and to the audience and to you thank you one of the biggest things was clearly that season one is you know incredibly escalating conflict between the two leads and everything spins from that this season not only has two couples but i thought very brilliantly made plain over time that it's not just about a beef or a conflict between two people but about groups of people and ultimately about people and class and like a larger system yeah um how many different versions of a story did you have to run through to figure out the best canvas for that idea oh a lot uh i think episode one had 16 drafts 16 network drafts and so that's not even like including your stuff yeah yeah and uh yeah it was just uh finding the right shape is so hard you know um i think what i was running up against to uh up against was um just i kept feeling like because there are versions of this show where the the beef started more overtly like got to probably the blackmail way sooner and um i just found that when it was more overt that the story math after that started to become really similar to season one right um and there's ways to like offset it once you get deeper in but like just that initial domino i was like oh i just energetically have done this and um you know i just wanted i don't like repeating myself and i just think about my favorite musicians and bands and you think about sophomore album compared to debut album and when they're like too similar you just start to like lose interest a little bit you know like i mean i love kings of leon but you know that's kind of why i like fell off a little bit we have a long-term beef with them on this that's fine this is the inciting incident for our season great let's get after it kings of leon what's going on um no but like you look at a band like radiohead that's the holy grail yeah to go from pablo honey ben's okay computer to kid a it's like insane yes and so we we kept talking about like uh in prep and within the writer's room like are we doing like do we want to go from like ben's to to okay computer or are we talking okay computer to kid a and so we're trying to like figure out the right level of swing that we want to take and that's why we went through so many drafts is okay what started to energetically feel refreshing to us you know so that it feels like we're on we're doing new territory what was the thing if you can pinpoint one or two that felt exciting and fresh to as a as a new starting point for the season i think it was sort of the the slower burn felt really nice to me um and uh i say something that really clicked in in the edit was also the cold open we had so many versions of how to start that first episode one was starting like the first like completely in the um older couple's perspective and staying with them for a longer time there was one version where we did younger couple's perspective so we just see the fight from their eyes oh and then it wasn't until josh was deleting security cam footage that we saw the fight through the older couple's eyes and it was like this kind of like surreal thing where he was like looking through the footage and you saw the fight happening behind him right and you know that like from a filmmaking standpoint like jake and i were getting excited about doing that but then just it was it just felt strange to keep these perspectives separate what felt more propulsive was that inner cutting of like here's here's this naive young couple here this is infighting and it just felt these two trains that clearly were going to collide and i was like oh that's that's the show is just constantly like playing with how much these these two couples are colliding or not that other version sounds a little unshaped it's like a little cerebral and chilly yes yeah no you're not there yet um did you feel like there was anything energizing or um inspiring about changing the topography of california that you were covering because obviously it's more of a southern california it's you know broadly a california show but you start pushing up the central valley here and pushing up and like you know i just was in ohio this weekend and every time i'm like i could live here i'm also like they talk a lot about spiritual cosmic vortexes here you know and there is an element of like you go there and you start to immediately think about like how to improve yourself all the time totally and i was curious what attracted you to the both the monta vista part but also like that that whole area yeah i think uh you know for me for whatever reason i have a hard time just writing from nothing you know and i and i i need life in the universe to show me things and i'm like i'm not going to do that i'm not going to do that i'm not going to do that i'm not going to do that i'm not going to do that and that's just what i was experiencing yeah you know uh i just find so many of my millennial friends have either moved to ohio or bought a place there or a vacation there often and there is this especially for millennials for some reason this like idea that that is this escape yeah like we can clean slate and everything's going to be okay and uh and then montecito i a good friend of mine chris he uh we you know we've been friends since our 20s like temp together and we've been friends since our 20s and we've been friends since our 20s and we've uh like been so poor in la together and then recently he came to into a lot of money like he was number three at a company that sold to i think paypal for like four billion dollars and so he's a member at montecito club now and i was house sitting for him and he was like oh you can use my membership for a month and i was like how much do you pay this is crazy there's nothing in the world that'd be worth amount this amount of money and i use it for like three days and i'm like can i see that application for you what was it that appealed to you because i think one of the other things that's so brilliant about way you've crafted this season every character is human every character is fallible and every character wants things even if they shouldn't want them and i think you don't shy away from that um so maybe that also came from experience totally i i mean we talked a lot in the writer's room about hedonic adaptation and just like how quickly we as humans like just new stimulus new environment like bam we adapt we're such adaptable creatures and suddenly we forget we can't go backwards yeah once you fly in the front of the plane but that was actually what i was ashley is the most fascinating i didn't mean to interrupt you like ashley's such a fascinating character to me because one of my questions was do you think that even if ashley and austin had never come across josh and lindsey fighting ashley was always gonna find something that was like a lever to like move her life along or was she was she ever gonna be content just being like i guess this is just what things are you know like i don't think so yeah yeah no i think uh i mean that's what's fun about the way kaylee played that character too um and we talked about it a lot with me and her and jake or like how much we want to start her innocent and that this is like a brand new almost like disease that she inherits from everybody else or what's innately inside of her and where we landed i'm so glad you asked that is like she plays it where even when even in the pilot like you feel a little bit like that that is in her yeah you know there's this like slight like edge to it and even like even in her like love for austin there's an anxiousness because she you can just tell this is someone that like is seeking and like holding on or wanting more and so i i absolutely think even if they hadn't witnessed that she would have found something else that she needed to hedonically it's such a great portrait of like people in love at that age where you're like this is so cool right like we both work at record stores not that i'm speaking i came from a deep place yeah so specific one person wakes up and is like so what are we gonna do yeah what are we gonna do with our lives like this is fun but like are you ever gonna wear a shirt with buttons you know also once they've seen as they see in the beginning once they see how josh and lindsey live when you go back to their home yeah we're seeing it the way they're seeing it yeah it's a perfectly fine apartment for 20 year olds but then they've seen what maybe they feel they're supposed to have exactly and we're watching that as well well i mean that was what was so fun about kind of writing these younger characters as a room and we have you know younger writers in the room too but just thinking about what we used to be like and what's funny is like it feels not that long ago but then also so long ago to think about like relationships from 20s and then a funny thing that came up in the room is just this like the the question what are you thinking you know like like you used to ask that like so in love like because you genuinely wanted to know what the other person was thinking yeah and now it's like never said in like a like like it's like okay what are you thinking like you know and so like just so you're thinking now yeah it's like the last thing you want to ask you know but staying on the young couple for a minute because i thought charles melton is just like revelatory in this show he's so good and he's so funny and it's such a rare thing to have someone who can be self-aware and smart at being slightly dumb um i i thought i thought they were incredible and particularly when you give him early on the line about actually this is all late stage capitalism's fault and you realize that he's read this on a reddit board or something yes and you've captured this tone that is both giving us a roadmap for what the series is going to be about because that is what they come up against and it does undo them all but also he's a little bit clownish when he says it it's convenient to blame yes that felt like a really important hinge point for the character and for the season so much of uh writing austin was looking at our own lives and what how i feel like we all do that these days like like lately i've been saying like oh yeah i just read and when i say that i'm like no i saw on instagram you know two sentences over a stock photo you know well where's my mind yeah and so you know i think austin felt like someone who truly uh you know there's he also probably has an insecurity being like a you know failed athlete and so he wants to feel useful and um and so he is trying to grasp at these larger concepts but can't and um and but i think i think for a lot of us like all the things we're grasping at are true yeah you know uh we just don't have the means to fully understand it and to even understand why it's happening but i i love the way that charles played austin too because in the wrong hands it could have been very like too much of a buffoon you know like a classic like himbo and i think charles he injected so much more humanity into uh this character uh he was so protective of austin there are often times where he was so locked in that uh he would he would make the entire crew laugh just like destroyed on set and then he would he would have to like go to his trailer upset and i'd be like it's like are you laughing at me yes yeah and he was like he was laughing at austin austin means well he's like trying and so like now like given some distance from the character he'll like watch the show and laugh at himself like more than anybody else but in the moment he was so in austin that he couldn't even like take the fact that he was crushing on set did you i've read i've read varying reports on this like do you write for these actors specifically if possible like did you write this for him with him in mind and was that also the case or maybe we know it's not the case for the older couple and we could talk about that yeah i i i try to attach actors really early on because i can't write to people in a vacuum and um or write characters in a vacuum and charles was the first piece because i knew the half korean arc was really important to me and um i watched may december and was blown away like everybody else like that scene on the roof where he smokes pot it's like heartbreaking but so funny yeah he's like he's so amazing in warfare too it's like if you see him in warfare like it's mind-blowing what he's doing in beef because you're like oh you could be like i mean he kind of does remind me of brad pitt in that way where it's like he's capable of being the like the punchline in a scene but he's also capable of being like a full leading man yeah he's a complete chameleon and um and so i attached him really early and like you know we became fast friends uh he likes to tell this story about on the basketball court uh because i had a i was renting this house and there was a basketball court we're playing basketball like every week and he's getting these early drafts and there wasn't a lot you know his his arc was like paced out to be what it is and again locked into austin he was kind of like upset he's like i'm just the side character and he tells the story of him him blocking me really badly and that was him taking out all this frustration and what's your story my story is that i think i won 11-4 yeah that was a foul yeah yeah but uh no i think what's what's great about charles is that we he he just gave so much of himself to the project like you know all that time on the basketball court i was like mentally noting all the little ways he spoke like charles loves to put handles on his like whatever he says he'll be like if i may say this sunny my perspective is my perspective is sunny that i and so he'll like say all these handles before he gets to his point so i'm like oh that's so austin yeah and so i was just jotting all these charles isms to kind of make this character very bespoke to him but i did that for everybody you know i think just hours and hours of conversations with kaylee with oscar with carrie you know oscar and carried like you know they discover a lot in rehearsals and like we'll have like hours of like really in-depth zoom conversations about super personal things and so then i'll spiritually put that into the characters but then dialogue that's all a lot of it is discovered uh um in rehearsals and then that'll kind of get them feeling good and then usually after that we'll like start to put back some of the like little ornamental like jokes and stuff that we liked and then once they feel like they're in a good foundational place then they're like more apt to try some of like the sillier jokes and stuff when did when did carrie and oscar come on and did you have to tweak like for example carrie being english is essential to the character now in a way that i can't imagine it otherwise but i don't know what draft that turn occurred that uh they came on pretty early it was charles and kaylee first and then and then i was sort of looking at different configurations of actors that had a history behind them right and you wanted people who had worked together before yeah because the first impression of josh and lindsey's so bad that i was really worried that no matter how we write it we might lose the audience if they don't feel this inherent yeah uh like subtext between the two and um so oscar and carrie it's like you know they're in two of the greatest movies of this century you know between drive and then suddenly when davis uh and so i went after oscar first just because we're both at wme and that was easier so romantic yeah i wish i had a better story but uh and because i blocked his shot you know what um but jokes about his height in the in the show there is yeah uh and um and he he you know i mentioned carrie and he like lit up because i guess they've been pitching each other for every project they've done since i live in davis and um and so i went to carrie pretty soon after and didn't you say he's she's like his favorite person to act with basically yeah they have a safety between them that is like insane like you watch them together and it just feels like it's like i don't even want to say jordan pippin it's like two jordans you know there's a shorthand between them that is like unreal and they just they don't even have to say anything they just like know like where the other person's going like one person starts to push the scene a certain way and there's like not a missed beat um it's really crazy to watch but uh yeah i think they both attached pretty early on i don't i think i had maybe like one draft of the pilot um that i had sent to them and you know once carrie was on i'm just like oh we have to switch to british she's amazing on the show and the specificity and this is a theme i keep coming back to when talking about how much i love the season but the specificity of her being sort of this slightly failed british aristocracy posh lady who everyone on who sees her on instagram thinks she's thriving but of course she's she's run out of funds and she searches the daily mail for people she knew or once slept with that twinned with the absolute like millennial headshot of of uh josh loving hot chip which is so specific and not a diss at hot chip but i've never met anyone who said hot chip is my number one favorite band you know they haven't heard the whole frequency spectrum of yeah but he's so razor sharp like that's what makes the show and are those the things that you have do those things happen first as soon like you think of that and the character comes from that or as you're building the character do those details just populate it says we're building it and that was really early on with Oscar, 'cause truthfully, early drafts had him the synth stuff and the moog stuff didn't exist uh it was sort of like first thought laziness i had we had written more that he was like really into like the lumineers and so we had like i'm here for that season three scenes where he like there was like he's doing a lot of ho hey like covering ho hey and uh and i think also i was like i like so hell bent on remember that outcast cover of heya that was acoustic yes oh sure and i just that's so millennial cringe to me that i was like hell bent on getting that in the show in any which way or form and so i think that's why i lean so hard into the acoustic guitar for josh but once we started talking about it oscar and i was like okay you did that on inside lumen davis like we don't need to see oscar isaac with an acoustic guitar again like how am i ever gonna beat the cohen brothers that just won't happen so you we started talking about like other things that are millennial cringe and then the idea of like a 40 some year old just like having this mini moog and like like just like because moogs are also really hard you know like you like buy it and then you like think you're gonna get really good like it's never cool yeah you know and so uh that's when we were like started really laughing together of hey we talked about the the like that seminal concert at the bull where we literally name checking the show with lcd and hot chip opening like i feel like every person my age who's who lived in la at that time was at that show and cried and probably was on molly yeah probably posted about it on twitter when it was good yeah yeah exactly and so that's where we started having fun we're like oh should it be lcd or something but like hot chip felt like that perfect bullseye of i mean they're an incredible band i've seen them so much live but like you said they don't quite get the shine that they deserve and they're also a band that would that troy could call and in a moment show up at a denver chalet or a utah chalet and and and play at this like weird event um and so it's just like a lot of conversations talking about things that we find cringy about ourselves you know is that also where because i was curious about the pop culture references and and the thinking around like you know rooting these characters in having fights about bullet trainer top down maverick and mescal mescal knights and yeah like the idea of like you populate it with i it's it's funny too because like i guess josh and lindsey do a little more of it than austin and ashley because it's probably like they have more time to kill and they're more you know they're like still indulging in all of their cultural obsessions or whatever but go to the beach once a week sure but like imagine you know like austin grinding to make ends meet but when you when you're putting in references to to contemporary pop culture are you like how do i make this so that it's not immediately like you know in any year this is gonna be like oh okay we've dated ourselves i think it's just it has to feel like it's coming from character you know like even season one when uh danny like i think he name checks like lincoln park hybrid theory you know and it's like it's just we just did that because that is what that person danny would be talking about in even in 2023 at the time yeah and and i think for someone like josh and lindsey i just felt like i had heard different couples post covid fighting about that like i've heard that like structure of a fight amongst friends of like well i didn't get to go to that because you had covid you know and so like like just having heard that so many times in my own life i'm like okay like that structure is very relatable like what movie could be that and top gun maverick and bullet train those are just like i don't know there's things that i feel like feel more of josh sure you know like i don't think josh is going to the theater to see like you know director parks the handmaiden at the lemley when it opens but you have to be careful because it's got to be something that oscar isaac could not possibly have been in yes yeah yeah no we do and he's been in a lot yeah you are in drive dog yeah what you're speaking to is so interesting because i think that the one of the skills that you and your your crew and and creatives have is like to draw the universality out of something very specific and i'm thinking in this case about the way you use phones and social media which i think is the best i've ever seen on a tv show because it's not just the the text on screen which we've seen it's the swappings between apps which you know mirrors the way and this is something we were talking about last week like the way you use phones and social media is the way our interiority is so impatient and so restless yes and we can just feed ourselves constantly even within a thumb movement yeah um yeah and you know the way that like it informs the scene so that austin is just speaking chat gpt sweating trying to keep his head above water um you know or and you may have heard me say this last week too i love that your show ran at the reality of recently deleted because i think generally when when when movies and tv use phones and social media it's like it's not like they're trying to hide the bits that don't work for the drama that it would still exist in the cloud but you ran right towards it and and can you talk a little bit about that conversation that you have with your writers about how we we have to use what is actually out there uh thank you for noticing that because we we spend an inordinate amount of time talking about exactly that uh like you know i think that backup video thing is uh it is a good uh call out because there was there was some debate in the room of like abandon this backup video because like yeah like they would back it up to the cloud and and it's just you know the things i've learned from watching stuff that i love like sopranos and breaking bad they're always like not shying away from the thing that yeah like backs you into a corner because that's what life does life backs you into a corner and so then yeah like you know uh if if ashley like deletes the text then like uh recently deleted oh that sucks that it's there but then like we should lean into that like we can make that a story point yeah um and and i think so we're always just trying to like look at our own lives the way we feel and try to figure out the most efficient way to dramatize that um you know the app switching thing that's i had a shout out someone on our vfx team melissa khan she came up with that this season i thought it was just brilliant you know because it's such a quick way to do exactly what you're talking about but we pour over everything from like like we spent hours like trying to find like the right like font and like you know um how much is true to the actual os versus like taking liberty and and bending it like how do we just make this feel like how it feels for us when we use our phones and even in the mix when um ashley is texting austin about you know can you go to h&m can you do this like we boosted the his fast angry typing because that's how it feels when you're like angrily replying to the phone and applying to somebody like you hear it a little louder and so just all these like very subjective ways we can create that experience because it's that that phone is just a part of who we are now there's no going back there's even like the stuff that happens uh when ashley is texting unice about and it's like ashley's been in an accident but like her texting as austin is not austin's voice kind of stuff which is like that makes or breaks things it can take you out of out of the reality of what's happening if it's not um if it's not accurate i wanted to ask you a little bit about the monte vista and the the golf club stuff and then the connection to soul and and i know you wanted to talk about this as well but i was curious whether or not to start with that came fully formed to you as like a whole package of this is where i want the show to go and this is this other element of the show or whether that was something that was developed over you know after thinking about these four characters for a while there was like i want to bring another element in it uh it was the former because you know charles was the first piece because i knew that uh this half korean identity tug of war was something that was going to be very important to this season and and as part of that tug of war i knew that uh you know native korea was going to be on one end of that and and again it was just writing from what i know what i was experiencing like after season one i was i shot a music video for rm one of the guys in bts in korea and i hadn't been back in a really long time and getting the red carpet like rolled out for me and like getting wined and dined in like the private halls of a korean korean conglomerate and it was you know there was i joked to this one actual chairwoman i was like hey like i'm getting like a skin like uh self-conscious about my skin because you're like making me meet all these k-pop idols yeah and she just like without missing a beat she was just like oh i'll send you to my skin guy i was like what oh tomorrow uh in the morning a i'll pick you up and we'll send you to our skin guy don't worry and so i'm like okay went in rome yeah you look great well you know that's why i look like i gotta go back but i i did this like light laser and i was just writing in my notes app the whole time i was like this is fascinating and i remember writing in my notes app before i even had like a page of anything for the show i just wrote old boy style fight and skin clinic with skin flying around i'm just like i haven't seen that before and and you look around and this is like a world that's like thriving like it's like one of the biggest like you know um like like agents of tourism for the country like Like people are like going over there in the masses and no one's really like dramatized this. And I'm always looking for new slices of the Asian and Asian-American experience to showcase. And we had covered so much California, Korean-American diaspora. And I'm like, well, this is new and exciting to me. And so that was baked into the Charles arc. How we went about it definitely changed as you, you know, attached to the greatest Korean actors of all time. That's the segue to what I was going to ask. You not only have Yoon Yoo-jung, who won an Oscar and is an incredible actress as the supervillain of the show. You've got Song Kang-ho, who is one of the greatest actors alive, to play a mostly comedic supporting part on the show. How did those conversations happen? Miracle after miracle. You know, Y.J. I had met through Steven, obviously, on Minari. They worked together. And I think I had emailed her and then she was interested. So then I met her in Irvine. Actually, I had like a chairwoman, Mickey Lee, who's like the head of CJ, at her house. So it's like already very meta. And I was pitching Y.J. the arc. And, you know, she's so she's much like her character. So intimidating. Just holds so much gravity. You know, she is like truly royalty. And once I got to the part where she had a husband 20 years younger, she just started cackling. She was like, no one in Korea would ever have the courage to write me a husband 20 years younger. And I think, you know, she's had such a storied career to be offered something where she can feel like she's doing something new. It's, I think, something she's chasing. So she was in. And then I told her, I'm like, hey, I'm going to go after Song Kang-ho. Like, why not? Like, let's go for the moonshot. And, you know, he he I had met through the success of season one. We had dinner in Korea a couple of times and I knew he was a fan of the show. But I also know like pitching him something that's like, you know, the sixth lead is like probably not going to go over that well. And also he had a very busy shoot schedule that he was already doing other stuff. So his initial reaction was no. Like he I sent him a scene and he was just like, ah, like. I don't know if it's going to work with my schedule and I'm probably not right for this. And I went back to YJ and I told her and she just wasn't going to have it. She was like, I'm going to call him. So she called him direct and she was just like, hey, you're Song Kang-ho. You're the greatest actor alive. What are you talking about? You like don't know how to figure this out. Like, you're going to figure out how to play this. It's going to be great. And you're going to be in the show. And so then like 48 hours later, I got like a sheepish text from Song Kang-ho being like, hey, a change of heart. At what point did you tell him what may be the masterpiece of the season, which is his long, beautiful soliloquy about the mask of of of wealth and celebrity and what lies behind it and the dark truth of life? And then Austin says, I think I heard soup. Yeah, he he got that pretty late because I'm like notoriously late with my scripts and the finale was written like deep into the shoot. And I think he was getting a little anxious, to be honest. Like he was texting me a lot through shoot about like golfing, like in classic, like I think like Korean misunderstanding, like kind of like Charles and and like Charles's character and Dr. Kim, he had texted me early on being like, is there going to be golf in the show? And I thought, like, hopefully, yeah, I thought hopeful. And I was like, sure, whatever you want. You're the greatest actor of all time. He's like, well, please let me know if there's. Golf in the show. And I was like, do you want golf? And he's like, if there's golf in the show, I would just love to know. And I was like, I can write you a golf scene. Does he need to get his swing dialed? And he was like, fantastic. If there's a golf scene, great, please send. And I was like, I went to the writer's room, I was like, guys, we have to write a golf scene first. And like this whole time we're going back and forth about this golf scene. And I was like, this guy's like weirdly obsessed with like wanting to play golf in a show. Yeah, that's cool. And it wasn't until like we were on the day shooting in Korea that he told me that he was like so nervous because he doesn't know how to golf. Oh, my God. And so he was stressed. And I was like, oh, man, I wish I would have known. You call this guy. That's his dream job. This is just. I got some YouTube videos I can send him. Ultimately, I wondered, you know, you finished the show a while ago. It's out now for a couple of weeks. I don't know if you've had much time to reflect. But do you feel like this season of Beef is. Ultimately cynical about love and marriage or clear eyed about it? That's a great question. It's a good question. Follow up. Are you married? I am married. And I think I think it's been interesting seeing everyone's different reactions because I I've been trying to get better about that season one. Like I literally read every single word written on the Internet about the show. There doesn't exist a word about beef I hadn't read in season one. You need to go to Korea and get a laser treatment for that part of your brain. Yeah. Holding on. And season two, I'm trying to be better and like stay off the Internet a little bit more. But I have seen like some people are taking it very cynically and other people are like, oh, that's actually like really beautiful. And I think it is doing what we intended, where we wanted the ending to be open to interpretation. We want that beholder share. And we also want people's interpretation to change over time, depending on where you're at in life. And so that's my favorite stuff is. You know, Sopranos, Mad Men, like, you know, I'll go and rewatch a Coen Brothers movie. I was thinking about Burn After Reading a lot with this. Yeah. Where I'm like, oh, the way I received it in my youth is different than the way I'm receiving it now. And that's our intention with this ending is, yeah, if you're in a certain spot, you might take this super cynical. I where I'm currently at, I actually see it as like acceptance and and and, you know, the reason we depicted the. Buddhist concept of samsara as our last note was like, you know, the point of samsara isn't to be like, oh, like we're in this like eternal trap, like how cynical and give up like the path to enlightenment is like the acceptance of samsara and it's only in like the letting go of it and in the like almost like letting the wave of this wash over you that there is hope of breaking the cycle. And. Hopefully pushing through this trap into enlightenment. And so I personally, I mean, this may change in 10, 20 years. I don't know. But I certainly was trying to express a level of acceptance at the end. So I guess as a way to sort of kind of start to wrap up, how durable do you think this concept of beef is for you? Like, I, I love the idea of a of a bucket. You can put anything you're interested in, like as a show. But, you know, I know you're obviously a busy guy. Like how, how, how much do you find yourself putting down ideas on like a notes app and be like, that's a beef idea. Like this fight I heard this conversation I had this, this idea, like it may not be like beef season three is rolling, but like beef season three is like in your mind somewhere. Definitely not. I, I, I, I, all my beef ideas that I had in my notes app. I like had pitched to Netflix. I like had pitched to Netflix in trying to get a season two, which like didn't happen for the longest time too. I was like, what is happening? I'm the beef guy. But, uh, so I like, so I've like run out, you know, I, I, I've definitely have tried to express everything I can through the show. And if, if this is the last season, uh, which at this point I think is like, uh, you know, a collective decision between myself and Netflix. Uh, I'm. I'm, I would be perfectly happy if this was the last season, cause, uh, I'm really proud of the work we did and, and I feel like I've said everything I needed to say through the show, but you know, I also didn't expect season two to even happen, you know, like I, I didn't know I was going to write about two couples until real life hit me and, and so if something hits a year from now, five years from now, 10 years from now, I I'm, I'm definitely open, but currently, like it is a very like emotional. Exhausting show to do. It's like, you really are sitting in the shadows of yourself, uh, for an extremely long time. And I got to write all these golf scenes, write all these golf scenes. So, uh, I, I, I'm ready to like, I have so many other things I want to pursue. We're, we're pretty knee deep in X-Men right now. And which has been like such a joy, uh, relative to, this is when I would use, I've said Netflix, the, the, um, Tim Robinson thing of like, oh, I'm going to do this. Oh, I'm going to do this. Oh my God. I can't believe he admitted it because I'm asking you about that next. So I'm happy you said the word first. Sure. Yeah, of course. Uh, no, it's, uh, it's, I think I, I definitely need a break from, from, from, uh, from this, uh, uh, vessel of like literally this show is called beef. It's just antagonism, you know? I mean, season three could be the brothers from Kings of Leon's beef with each other, you know, just, just throwing it out there. That would be easier to write. So you said it, so we didn't have to awkwardly dance around it. You are one of the writers announced working on the X-Men movie for Marvel, and I don't want to get you into any trouble with NDAs and things. But I was curious, process aside, your X-Men fandom, like coming into it, who's your era, who are your guys, who are your creators? What brought you into that franchise before you got the call and what interests you about them? Oh, I mean, growing up, like that was like the one thing my dad and I would watch together every Saturday morning. So it's the cartoon. Well, that was the initial way in, you know, and like cartoon for me, like I was obsessed with Gambit. You know, obviously like Jubilee, like you're like, oh, like Asian face, you know, like how cool, like in this like group of superheroes. And so Gambit and Jubilee were like my jam. And like I was really obsessed with Gambit. And then like you kind of, you know, like everybody else, you go in through Claremont. And, you know, I think that the feeling of sort of the original team, I think, is the movies. I love the movies as well, but like it's a feeling that I that I miss, you know. And when you go back and watch that watch for like read some of the earlier stuff there, there's so much like inner team, like almost like soapy things. Super melodramatic. You know, and they're fighting the danger room or playing softball. It's all about their own. Exactly. Yeah. And and and I think like the the movies in a great way, like. You know, I think they've leaned into more of like the political backdrop, which is just always baked into X-Men. But I think what's exciting about Jake's vision for this movie is he wants to get back to character first. He wants to really lean into sort of that like inner character dynamics and relationships and and, you know, play around with the soapy stuff that was like baked into the comics. And we've been, you know, me, Joanna, Jake, Kevin, Lou, we've been in rooms every single day. Wow. Yeah. And it's so exciting, like to have like literally in the Marvel room, they have every character in the X-Men comics just like put on the wall and you're just staring at the best IP on the planet. Like, can I get Bishop? It's the craziest thing. It truly is. Like, I can't believe this is real. Like, it's so exciting. And that's also the the the hard part of it. It's like, you know, you feel a great responsibility with this because, yeah, we. We like amongst us, like we are like we we're trying to we can really do anything. We're not like beholden to to anything from the past. It's interesting because I think that one of the reasons why the MCU was so successful is because Kevin and his lieutenants were just elite at identifying the single log line at the heart of every one of these characters and communicating that like with a purity, you know, and then that continued on through Spider-Man. And I think that you guys and I know you worked on Thunderbolts. You were able to do that with characters that people weren't even necessarily aware of. Or at least their connection going into it. X-Men, it almost felt like for years I always thought that they maybe they were lucky not to have it in their arsenal because the log line is, you know, hunted and feared kids who hang out together, but who also are avatars for every marginalized class in history. But then having a large, you know, global villains gallery, but then also maybe shouldn't be fighting because they are an evolution of humanity. Yes. So I guess the question in there is how? Well, I think. I mean, we're really early on. And I think what I've loved about working with Kevin especially is that that guy just has like an uncanny, innate sense of like what to chase. It's crazy. And I think Marvel has done a really great job of sort of clearing the deck. They had a lot of stuff going on. You know, Kevin was being pulled in a million directions. Like they've cleared the deck. They're focusing on like just a couple things. You took Moon Knight season two off the table. Yeah, I took it right off the table. I'm so sorry. There are so many ardent Moon Knight fans. But never say never. And Kevin's really locked in. And his, like, there's times like in the room where he'll say something where like, I think this. And then like, I'll be like, you know, on the carpet. Like, and of course, every interview question is about X-Men. And then like seven fans will come up. And then the thing that the seven fans say is like literally the thing that Kevin said in the room yesterday. So I'm just like, oh, he is just tapped in. And, you know, I think he's put a lot of trust into Jake because I think they're very happy with how Thunderbolts turned out and that it is a character first movie. So, you know, it's really exciting. I, you know, I love I have a pep in my step going to work because it's like, you know, it's one, it's a nice break from this. And then two, you know, like childhood me. Just like, yeah. Are you like driving to Burbank? Like, I can't believe I'm doing this. Like, are you getting notes from your dad? Yeah. Yeah. Well, like my dad, it's like, you know, when I told him that I got this, he was just like, that's the good one. That's incredible. That's all I would ever need. Man, thank you so much for coming by. Congratulations on this season. Good luck with X-Men. We will be monitoring the situation closely. Yeah, I'm sure. And please come back and join us again sometime soon. Yeah, I've got a list of follow-ups. Like, could Magneto and Wolverine ever fight because of this? Yeah, no, let's talk about it in a few weeks. All right. Sounds good. Take care, man. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.