Becoming the healthcare Giant with Tim Doyle, Co-Founder & CEO of Eucalyptus | REPLAY

We're replaying some of our favourite episodes of the past few years on Wildtarts. And to get us off, we're sharing back with you one of the episodes we did with Tim Doyle, the CEO and one of the co-founders of Eucalyptus, the Health e-commerce platform. Wildtarts' original host, Mason, did this interview with Tim in late 2024, and so much has changed for Tim and Yook since. Now, the most obvious thing is that the company sold to him and hers in early 2026 for $1.6 billion. In this episode, you'll hear Tim talk about his journey to embodying the role of a CEO of a company that ultimately ended up having such a consequential impact on people's lives through obesity management. You'll hear him speak plainly about some of the unhelpful tropes about invincible founders, and why investing in your team's capacity to grow rather than buying and senior talent from elsewhere is his winning strategy. More than anything, I think you'll hear Tim's increasing confidence in his judgement as a CEO, and the balancing act he's had to strike on governance and growth, given what the business does. I actually found his reflections on how the company and he were covered in the media, and what he takes away from it really remarkable, and those alone are well worth the review. Over to Mason and Tim. Then we went through the compounding era and patients fear about not being able to get their medication and having to do AMAs in the community about what our plans were and how we could help them and what we would do if we had to transition them off medication. You kind of sit at those moments and they're kind of jaw-dropping that you're in that. You're like playing a role in such an important journey for people when we joke about a lot internally. When we originally set out to start the business, it could have been pet food or prams or whatever felt like the right thing at the time. Back to Wild Hearts. This is the third time Tim Doyle, the founder of Eucalyptus, has joined us on Wild Hearts. Each time as a banger in this time is no different. Last episode, Tim said that he wanted to shock the business into a new level of ambition. In this episode, we reflect on the journey that has turned you from a house of brands into one of the highest, performing healthcare organisations in the world. We talk about the trials, tribulations, challenges and wins. We'll see Eucalyptus serving 1 million patients by 2027. If you enjoyed this episode and want to listen to the other gems we've got planned over this season, I'd love it if you would subscribe to this podcast. It'll help others find Wild Hearts too. This podcast would not be possible without Melia Rainer, our head of communications and star producer, our marketing guru Jonathan Bleakley, and from welcome to day one, Annie Jones. And finally, if you're a founder right at the beginning looking for investment, my LinkedIn dams are waiting for you to say hi. And with that, here's my conversation with the CEO and co-founder of Eucalyptus, Tim Doyle. A lot has changed since I last had you on. Yeah, when was that? 2021, which I was actually quite shocked to see. Yeah, so I initially wrote 2022. Yeah. I totally liked it. It was what was that time in 2021. I think still top of the market, long interest rate environment, everyone in very much in growth mode, so it's kind of whether the changes in the market and then also the maturing of the businesses, like a healthcare organization, over the last three years, it's been remarkable that it's been three years, it's such a different business and environment and kind of company than it was at that time. So it's fun to reflect on that. So much has changed, which will probably be at the center of this chart in one of the investment members, Nick and I wrote back in the day to some of my own lines of like generational companies built and sequences and they're hard to predict at the beginning. You didn't set out to be a deleting healthcare voice in Australia and the world, but here we are. And I just wanted to start on how's that journey been to realizing that you are a healthcare organization? So we had our cycle open, the first time we had a cycle open a couple of weeks ago. So every four months we started a new cycle, we were on three cycles a year and introducing just what the business is trying to do over that period. So this was our first one, doing a massive one of those with everyone in one place and we introduced a new sort of goal to the company, but also a new mission for the company. Yeah, and it's like the third mission we've had, I think, which is actually quite funny because you'd think that those things don't evolve that much, but we had a very build a great business oriented mission through phase one and then a what does it actually mean to be a healthcare company oriented mission through phase two? And then when our starting on this, we are clearly a healthcare company, what does it mean to make a difference to the healthcare of millions of people around the world over the next decade? And so that has been such a stark journey. And then the opportunity to reflect on that and think about my first version of the business was very much about taking the skills that I had and using them to build a large company. Once it started to appear that a large company was possible, it was a question of what type of company that would actually be both from an internal and external perspective. And then, and now the last two years have been so hard, but it's such a rewarding journey to being something that it's actually a meaningful, making a meaningful difference in many people's lives from a healthcare perspective. And so you step back from that and you're like, oh my God, the thing that I know now, know how to do is so much more interesting and ambitious than what I set out. And so that opportunity is both like, it's fantastic, but also not something that I would have expected at the start. No way. I mean, the responsibility of a founder is enormous already. It's probably an order of magnitude when you get into healthcare. Could you have predicted the shift and the weight? No, definitely not. Like, I think, like, so you, our Juniper Facebook communities have, there's two of them, they have, you know, 10,000 people or something, approximately in each of them. And so you see every day, I think one of them has a thousand posts a day. And so in that community, with a thousand posts a day of women all through Australia and the UK posting about their journeys with weight loss and with obesity management and with weight management and the confidence issues that come along with that and the emotional issues that come with that and seeing that and feeling the responsibility you have to deliver in that journey well, like even, even things like when we went through the compounding era and patients fear about not being able to get their medication and, you know, having to do AMAs in the community about, you know, what our plans were and how we could help them and, you know, what we would do if we had to transition them off medication. You're like, oh, I'm, you know, playing a role in such an important journey for people when, you know, we joke about a lot internally and even, I think, probably in the first way in this podcast about, like, how we, when we originally set out to start the business it could have been, you know, pet food or prams or whatever, whatever felt like the right thing at the time. Yeah. What recently stood out to me I was reading an article that said something along the lines of, like, you're thinking about retiring. How are your energy levels? Oh, I think, like, what I was saying about when I, that was in the Forbes thing where I didn't think what I was trying to push back on there is this idea that, like, the founder journey is one of, like, kind of invincibility and endless energy. Like, obviously not and it's, like, super fraught with ups and downs and, like, emotional strain and, you know, fears of what goes bad and what goes well and, like, and, like, you know, 20% of your body at any given time is, like, desperately searching for the exit to this thing. But the other side of it is so rewarding and so great that that obviously gets compressed and pushed away. But I just don't like this arc that tends to happen where people hero success in a way that is, like, this person was, like, ordained from, from a young age to make this happen. Like, it just doesn't, it never is like that and, and the journey is so much more complicated. And so I try and, oh, like, I, and we're obviously only early in our journey, but I try and kind of be as real about the ups and downs of the thing as possible when you're talking about it because I think it can, it's, it's, it's, it's dangerous to send a message that it's ever easy or, or the only you could do it because, you know, lots of people do that. It can be traumatic. Yeah. Yeah. Can you bring us into a moment where it got really tough? Yeah. I mean, I think the, what's the best version of this? I mean, we've, we've been through several. I think the toughest moment was, so we found out that there was no, a Zampic in the country and that there wasn't any scientific being more. Hmm. And we had thousands of patients successfully losing weight on either six end up as a Zampic, you know, the two, the two medications approved in the country. And there's this, that now there's now thousands of patients who have tasted momentum in this space often for the first time that are now asking questions about like what would happen if, you know, if I can't get access to this medication. And so that's happening on one side. And so we're like kind of considering how to solve that problem and compounding is one of the options. And so we're working through like the safety profiles of, of compounding at the same time, like, as we get closer to doing that, you know, there's like a whole lot of media pressure about like the incentives and the motives of doing this kind of thing. And then there's investor pressure about whether it's the right thing or not. And so you've got like what is the right thing for patients? What is the right thing for the business from an investment perspective and what's right thing for the people who work in the business that you're trying to navigate and it's incredibly complex environment and you, you've got a lot of voices coming in at the same time and you kind of just trying to navigate what's ultimately the best thing for patients at that moment. And you know, there's so much pressure on that it's, like, it's extremely vital. And you're like, how am I even, how am I even in this decision, you know, like on a loan? You know, and you're talking to government and you're talking to regulators and I think like there was an exact moment where we had just made the decision that we were going to offer compounded, semi-glutite to patients or help them try and access it. that we're at our Christmas party and like it's five PM at the Christmas party in the TGA. The ABC set a push notification about a TGA announcement. So a push notification through the ABC app to like millions of people about the dangers of compounded product that are from a TGA announcement. And we were like, oh my god, like this is like such, such intense pressure. Even though like, you know, we'd seen all the safety testing. We'd seen all of this. Yeah, we'd seen all the safety testing. We'd seen everything, you know, everything that we could have done to make sure that this was safe and high quality, to still have this like weight of pressure. I was like, you know, pretty, pretty incredible. That is incredible. And in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, how the heck does one silence the noise? I don't think you like silence the noise, right? I think like, I think one of the things that's been really important about this company from very early on in its life is like, there's a lot of really great people who work here and have been attracted to the problem that we're trying to solve. And so I think like ultimately you build the supporting infrastructure around you so that like when things are noisy, you have voices that you can go to. You know, whether that's our clinical director, our legal team, our researchers, just people in the exact team are around the business generally that like you have confidence that you can deliver this thing at the standard required because you've spent a long time working with people who can perform at an incredibly high level. And so you get energy from that internal capability not from dealing with the external noise, which is inevitable. Can you give any example like how did how did everyone respond at the Christmas party? I don't remember exactly like I don't remember exactly but I think like through through through that time like people underestimate the complexity of communicating a change like that to thousands of people, right? So you you have to ensure that they fully understand and consent to what is going on. And so you have to ensure that they're a firstly educated practitioners. So they understand what's going on and then you ensure that the practitioner is educate the patients and ensure that that's going on. And then you have to run an entire consent process so the patients understand what is about to happen to them and you're checking that that's you've done that properly. And so you know there are thousands and thousands of pieces of communication that go into that. And they have to be empathetic. They have to be clear. They have to be delivered in the right way. They have to be compliant. And so like doing that at scale is like such a hard problem. And like you know teams of 20 people sat in a room for weeks doing this. And so to get that right is really really difficult. We're asking you a few years ago where do you get the most energy? The moment that you see the team doing something that they haven't been able to do before because of the products that you've built in the platform that you've built underneath them. It's in those moments. Maybe you could share like how has the team evolved in the last few years. The first thing is there's like so many of the people that were you know we were talking about as people that had joined the company and were incredible people of incredible potential you know three or four years ago and now like the leaders of the company you know so like I think there's a class example in like Beck who runs our UK team which is you know like nearly half of our business now. You know she started it as like a relatively junior person in the business grew over four years and is now you know managing you know what would be a multi-hundred million dollar business. And then Simon you know is at COO in a similar position you know like even like DeVener and Joe who like have both recently kind of left the business to see them go from like junior you know growth and engineering people to like fantastic leaders and over the course of four years like felt like validation for the early bet we made on people's potential to grow as part of the organization and then like the organization to grow on the back of their efforts as well. So I think like that feels as true if not more true than ever like the ability to get energy from seeing people progress and kind of take on new things. And then like you know like the the kind of constant source of new energy is like well what does that mean to go from doing that it you know three hundred people to doing that at three thousand people you know what does what does it mean to attract the next generation of that talent what does it mean for the people that we have now to be to step into those roles and take on those responsibilities like we said Joe was head of growth and then Matt Rossi took over his head of growth and now and now Carly has taken over as head of growth and like all three of those people kind of learnt growth largely within eucalyptus and you know like to see Carly go from like a performance media buyer to to a really really strong leader is like you just like you get so excited by that journey and what's it what's in front of those people as well. What's been different about the CEO hat of a healthcare organization from before where it was agnostic creative brands. I think like I think the biggest thing about being CEO of a healthcare company or a healthcare organization generally is most of the decisions there are many many critical decisions that aren't yours and so I think like to come back to the kind of compounding example is like ultimately it's not my call to make whether it's safe to do compounding you know that's that's a clinical decision and so I have to trust our clinical leadership and so having a clinical director in in Dr. Matt Vickers in a clinical advisory board of real quality and going like hey you're the final call on whether this is safe or not so we will trust whatever your decision here is here because ultimately I'm not I'm not a doctor like I'm not especially trained in the mobility to do that so the ability to like give up control of those decisions and trust the people around you to make good decisions based on their training it's different to other companies right you know there's been a lot of buzz and stuff recently around like founder mode you know and like you know healthcare organization you don't go founder mode ever because you don't control most of the decisions you know we facilitate interaction and supporting interaction between professionals and patients and so there is a responsibility to and and there to be relatively low ego about that and so you know you learn in in seeing thousands of patient interactions go through and seeing how clinicians make those decisions and you learn an enormous amount of respect for their decision making in the systems that they run and how to facilitate those decisions rather than making them I think is the really big change what is the how has the influence of that sort of lack of control that you have sort of evolved over the last few years well I think it's like you you've got to build systems which you trust right so you know over the last three years we've built you know a clinical advisory board a risk and audit committee a whole lot of safety infrastructure both internal and external audit standards all of these type of things and you can play a role in designing those systems but ultimately the output of those systems has to be prescribed like kind of decided over by clinicians and so you build a lot of trust in those people to make a good medical decisions but good commercial decisions along the way as well and like so you you end up orienting around building a great system rather than you yourself making great decisions in that space and I think like it feels foreign to people coming in like even even you know in the context of making some of the macro clinical decisions we've made over the last couple of months everyone thinks that they've got an opinion that's valid on whether or not you should do a thing you know and the reality is like if you're you know you're a professional investor or you're you know I see you over another company or whatever your opinion is actually not valid on whether it's safe or not you know like it's just not and so like learning the humility to be like this is not my call is a hard thing for people that are used to making calls and so yeah that's that's been a big lesson. Are you a control freak? No definitely not you can't be you can't be like like you can be if you are a single-minded product builder and you know we've like some of the greatest product minds in this country and in the world would probably ascribed to being controlling if not control freaks but I think like and that produces great product in you know many of the examples that we know about but in a healthcare organization you just can't do that like you have to have so much trust in the expertise of others and I'm not just saying in the medical decisions but you know in the pharmaceutical decisions in the legal decisions in the risk-based decisions like they're just not your calls. You can be a voice for a perspective but the the willingness to like step back and I think like my job is to make sure that everyone has enough context to to make the decisions they need to make across the many vectors that the business operates on but actually making those calls you just cannot be controlling because you don't have the mandate to do that. One of the things you cannot cannot control is the media. What have you learned about your relationship with media? Yeah well I mean obviously I have a controversial history with a variety of Australia's technology journalists. It was hard for me because I think like there's a phase in startup life where all publicity is good publicity you know like the hardest thing about media is getting media and so if you can say something that might be perceived as slightly controversial or an opinionated take and that leads to your business getting promoted in a way that it otherwise wouldn't of that largely is a net positive and then at some point that changes and you become a story you know regardless of what whether it's good or bad and so then the incentives are for you to be written about regardless of whether it's good for you or not right and so you know the first time I featured in Real Window was because of something I said on a podcast and like it was amazing to me that people were even listening to that podcast but I learned pretty quickly that like oh yeah like now there are enough people that would like to see you know us do poorly and enough people would like to see us do well that there will be enough eyeballs attracted to content about our business whether good or bad that the age of me trying to get media to promote the business is over and the age of me trying to manage the reputation of the business through media has begun and and that was quite a you know like a difficult transition because you the long tale of things that you've said historically can come back to bite you in in different ways and so that that happened to me you know pretty quickly and pretty painfully but like I don't resent the incentives of the media or the media professionals in that because like ultimately their job is to produce content which people read and so if I've said things which were designed to produce content which people read historically that I can't be held responsible. Well, I can't be angry. I can certainly be held responsible for the repercussions of that coming up later. And so while it was like personally quite draining, because it didn't feel like it was a fair representation of where the business was at the time, or what our goals were or what we were trying to do, like I understood why it existed. And so then the job was just to get on the front foot with a narrative that reflected what we were truly about. And so I think my immediate response to, like there's an often shouted line in Australian media about a business like ours being commercially motivated and therefore not doing the best things for patients. And I think that's a subjective opinion based on like, a vague perception of what venture capitalists and venture capital backed companies do. And I'm like, well, if you're gonna have an evidence-free discussion, we can have that evidence-free discussion, but I'm not gonna win because you can source whatever materials you want and you can slam the article however you want because you control the pen. And so our job there is to build an narrative that says something different and provides evidence and brings facts to this conversation. So something I'm extremely proud of is, we've got 10 pieces of peer-reviewed research published in the last 12 months. And they talk about everything from safety, to efficacy, to adherence, yeah, across a wide range of demographics and countries and prescribing models. And so we have brought facts to this conversation. And so the next time that these things play out, I would hope they play out in a way that is like, well, here is Euclip just presenting its evidence, whoever chooses to present a perspective or a subjective view on the other side, all power to them. But the weight of things should skew or fall to a more fact-driven version of the discussion. - You tell us more about some of the research that's been published? - Yeah, so I kind of breaks down into like three kind of major areas. The first is the efficacy of medications when prescribed through a digital model with support services around them. So we're obviously hearing a lot of buzz at the moment about the GLP1 medications. The question is, is like, what is the safest and most effective way to prescribe and manage those? And so we look at likelihood to lose significance amounts of weight, likelihood to lose certain amounts of weight. And that's a kind of triumph about publishing. And like what's really exciting is patients on Juniper, we're shown to be four and a half times more likely to lose five percent of their body weight than the clinical trial for that same medication. And so what that says is like, if you build a deep and empathetic journey around the medication where patients can get the support they need as they go on their journey, whether that's through talking to nurses, talking to pharmacists, just being in a community, they're much more likely to stick the journey up. And so therefore, they're much more likely to see results. And that's like a fantastic outcome for those patients 'cause many patients, you know, these drugs are miraculous, but many patients never see the benefits because they drop out of the journey because they don't have the support they need too early. So that's like one tranche. The second tranche is around what version of support experience produces the best outcomes. So high touch coaching, low touch coaching, automated coaching, dietician support, there's like a whole world of things we need to work out about like outside of the medication over a 10-year period, what produces the best health outcomes for patients. And so we're learning and publishing in that area to show that there is real value to supporting practitioners around this. And then the last area is around safety. So content about dispensing areas, content about prescribing areas, showing that like telehealth as a model can not only be like a low cost and high utility option for patients, but can be something extremely safe and valuable part of the system. And so, you know, in our two biggest markets, there is clear supply issues on the GP side for in the UK and in Australia. So technology has a role to play in lifting productivity and we're hoping that our research can show that role and the perception that telehealth is like some loose wild west can kind of be replaced by a set of standards instead of rules that show some safe and high quality care. - Let's just take a step back on GP ones because in 2021, I'm not sure that was. - No, I think they're talking about it at all. - Obviously now, it's a huge part of this business. I'd love to hear from your words, are they safe, why they important for a weight loss journey? - Yeah, for sure. I mean, the question of like why they're important for a weight loss journey is that, like, I think it's uncontroversial to say that obesity is a out of control problem across the entire world and has been getting worse despite huge amounts of investment and huge amounts of interventions over the last kind of two decades, three decades. And you can point blame in multiple directions but the realities we will make in our progress. And then. - Yeah, opposite. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll get much worse. And then so, you know, 15 years ago, the first research comes out about the class of medications that are GOP ones and it shows, you know, quite substantial weight loss for patients, you know, at three, six and 12 months. And what was remarkable about it is I kind of reasonably, well, I mean, a very safe side effect profile. And so people feel nausea, but outside of that, there hasn't been, you know, significant concerns for those patients and that they are losing weight consistently and keeping that weight off on that medication journey. So, like, just like a remarkable change in how treatment is done. And so, you know, they started the mass consciousness and like, obviously, as Ampick, first approved as a diabetic drug. So, Assembly Blue tied the molecule that is as Ampick. First approved as a diabetic drug and then later approved as an obesity medication. So, I think like the argument has often focused a lot on whether this is a diabetic medication or whether it should be used for weight loss. And I think actually it's kind of a redundant argument because it is approved as a weight loss medication. It's just labeled differently. And so, I think like there's an education piece to be done to the Australian public, which is the brand name of the weight loss medication in Ampick. They're actually just exactly the same medication at different doses. That starts to get the popular consciousness. And then I think like what we then see is like this, well, what does it mean to have these as part of the medical system? And I think that's the discussion that we're having now, which is like, you know, there can be very effective medications for weight loss. How do you ensure that patients are getting this done safely, done in the right way? It's for the right patients. And how do we get supply out to as many patients that qualify for this as possible? So that's where we've played a really important role because we've got 50,000 patients around the world at the moment. And what we really view our role is to help patients navigate that journey with the right support from practitioners in the first place and then from dietitians and coaches from exercise field physiologists. And so that over, you know, this is not just a I get in and I lose 10 kilos, which I think is like a lot of the media narrative. It's like, how do I turn that into a longer and healthier life? And so that's where our focus is at the moment. - Did you say 10,000 were in the Facebook groups? - Yeah, 10,000 in each of them. - Wild engagement. - Yeah, like the thing is the very, very frustrating thing about the weightless conversation as it's kind of generally represented is that it's an entirely aesthetic thing and that it is like somehow shallow. And so therefore like, and that it's cheating to do drugs for this and that like, why aren't people just, you know, every day we get comments on our Facebook ads and in our posts being like, why aren't people just eating less and moving more? That's like, you know, that's what it's all really about. That's what it's about discipline. And it's like, that's just like so fundamentally not true. So firstly, like obesity is like, lads are your genetic condition. And then secondly, like, once you have put on weight, it is so hard to lose. And so tools that help people on that journey are so powerful. And then it is such an emotional thing. Like people massively underestimate the impact it has on people's lives to be able to, you know, run around with their kids, to be able to kind of sleep better, to be able to have more control of their appetite. Like it fundamentally changes people's outlook on the world and we, like, still stuck in this, like, conversation about which celebrity has dropped five kilos using his armpit, and it's like, that's ridiculous. And it's underplaying the enormous impact this can have in society over the next 100 years. Is there an anecdote that comes to mind that the illustrates that example? Yeah, like, I mean, it happens all the time. Like I just, like, it's not like more the counter example of successful journey. The examples that come to mind and not wanting to kind of name individual patients is there is a very, very common journey, which is mother, very fit and healthy lifestyle through their youth, has children, deprioritizes their own personal health because life gets very busy, then either enters menopause and puts on weight that comes on, like, biologically, with that. And then loses control of that weight gain, get extremely disenfranchised by that, probably tries 20 diets, does a lot of exercise through that journey, gets injuries through the exercise because they're not doing the right things there or they haven't learned the right ways of doing things. And then ultimately feels like hopeless and is looking at like a quite uncomfortable journey that often ends up in diabetes and you can like, override variety of illnesses. And so what you see there is like the transition where medication is the spark. And so you see them lose, you know, five to 10 kilos out of the gate quickly on the medication. And then you see the entire way that they approach their body and their health change. And so you see them kind of changing their exercise habits, you know, talking to the community about diet choices, kind of making better diet choices, then you see like a complete change. And often we see, you know, like, we see so many patients lose 50 kilos. So, so many. And like, it's just like remarkable when you see that and you forget, like, and then there's like the small non-scalepetries that come off the back of that, which is like, you know, patients talk about, you know, being able to buy different clothes or there was like one particularly example that came up recently where it was like, this patient had to like recently gone through like quite a painful breakup. And one of the things that her partner had done through, done during the relationship was like, buy clothes for her a size too small to try and get her to lose weight, like completely psychotic behavior. But then now this patient was having all of these new clothes because they lost all this weight. And like, so their newly single self had had benefit from all of these clothes that have been bought. And it was it was an example that we talked about at our our cycle opener. It's just like, you forget how much people's moved and in lives can change, you know, through these programs. - You talked to the telehealth advantage and like how you think about Nokia. just being a drug. So the first is on access, right? So I think the reality of the modern internet is that people will seek health information on the internet, like that's just an undeniable fact. And so being able to meet patients with high quality information and professionals and consultants at the point they're seeking that information is such a valuable unlock for those patients because a lot of them will find out, you know, we'll end up in edge Reddit forums, we'll end up in weird communities, we'll end up buying things from Pete Evans, you know? And so being able to meet patients where they are with legitimate comms, legitimate practitioners is a real unlock for those patients as they begin their journey. A lot of them will just never get to the point where they actually seek proper help for this. So getting closer to those patients is a real unlock that telehealth provides. The second is, under the access banner is, you know, convenience and removal of friction in an environment where like it is often quite hard to get access to practitioners from many people. And so low cost high quality practitioner interactions powered by technology is like a big part of the unlock. So, you know, being able to do things largely online, largely when you need it is extremely powerful for both practitioner and for patient. And I think like that's kind of the first era of telehealth. The second and much more interesting era of telehealth, I think is then like, how can you build a multi practitioner relationship with patients that serves them over the course of their lives? So patients, by interacting with Juniper, which is one platform that they can go back to every day, they can track their weight, they can track their mood, they can talk to their coach, they can talk to their practitioners, they can get diet support, they can get exercise support, they can talk to the community. So all of those things in one place mean that every micro decision that they make across their health is likely to be better because of the infrastructure that supports them and making that decision. So you go from like an episodic at need largely when your ill-oriented version of healthcare, which is like, I completely understand why exists and is, you know, works great for most patients, to something that can be the decision support across every decision you make. And I just think like, ultimately, if people are making better health decisions around diet, around exercise, around which practitioners they go and see, their chances of avoiding serious incidents go get so much better. And so like we view our job as helping people to make good health decisions throughout their lives so that their chances of ending up in hospital go down. Whether that's working with their GP, whether that's working alongside a team of their practitioners, whether that's working alongside their specialists, that we're agnostic to how that ends up working. It's just that we want to be the decision support across all of the small decisions. So an example, a really, really simple example that I'm like, can't quite passionate about in a, you know, weird way is like, it's really, really hard. Like everyone's trying to eat more protein, right? Everyone. But like most of your, like also CPG companies and FMCG companies understand branding. So they will put protein stickers on everything. And which protein buyer is the best protein buyer? I would guess low sugar, high protein. I would guess, depending on what you're trying to do, probably low carbs. Yeah. I mean, that's probably a good, a good heuristic, right? So how many people actually know that heuristic or how many of them just walk into a, and go, oh, that's a protein buyer, that's what I need. Yeah. Or that's high protein, that's what I need. And so you see so much sugar in these things. And so it's like, it's not easy, right? Yeah. And so I think health education is like the, the opportunity for us and decision support along like a really complicated journey. But technology lowers the cost of interactions. And so if you can drive the cost of high quality interactions as low as possible and then drive up the number of those interactions, then you have a patient that feels supported across a much, a, you can swap many more patients and be that those patients are supported across a much more diverse journey. And ultimately that means that they don't end up in hospital. And hopefully, I mean, that's what the research will show over the next couple of years, thought experiment. If there is an uncapped number of GLP ones and the value occurs to the drug manufacturers, then you ultimately could see the commoditization of those drugs, those prices decline and the value sort of slither away from you to them over time. How do you think about this? Which is, by the way, obviously many years away because the inverse of uncapped is true. Yeah, no, no, I like, I want, I want uncapped supply, right? I want, I want to see a world in which patients can access these medications as freely and as availability as possible and ideally as low a cost as possible. Because like, I think the societal benefit of as many people having access to these as possible is enormous. Commercially, I don't view it as disadvantageous advantageous to us anyway. I think this is a wedge for people to start to treat their health differently and to build a relationship with practitioners on the Eucliptus platform that will evolve over time from one that is like largely around medication access through to one about all of healthcare management. So I think like if we were hedging out bets on being the margin-driven medication provider, I think that would be a ridiculous long-term proposition. I think it's like, our goal has to be, and you know, has been for some time, is like how do we use that wedge to build a relationship with patients where we can be decision support across all of the health. And so, and how can we provide as many services and as many products along that journey to help them make good decisions? And so, you know, compound is a bet in that direction for us. Like it is like it helps with weight loss for men and body re-composition for men for sure, but it has a much broader mandate to do diagnostics. It has a much broader mandate to do kind of exercise planning to do support on kind of transforming your general health rather than specifically being about medication access. And so, I think if you want to look at the future of eucalyptus, you should look at what compound is trying to be, and then what juniper can be alongside that. And I think that that is the future as we see healthcare evolving over the next decade. Talk a bit more about compound, how it's different to some of the emerging competitors, why you're excited about it. Oh yeah, I think like the idea of extra health information for the worried well, whether that is through exact health, exact health checks or super premium diagnostics. I heard a anecdote from a friend who was telling me that she was one of the first people to go to the longevity institute in the US, which was like one of the original longevity doctors and got a full body scan and had a kind of a growth or a lesion that was unidentified and so spent 12 months worrying about something that actually had no treatment, no impact and no treatable, you know, nothing treatable. And so like I think this idea of just like data for patients is good for the patient's sake is is actually not true and net negative. And I think these businesses won't be fantastic businesses or fantastic services for patients. Like what I view compound as is a companion to your health decisions across and a long journey, but not for the hyper rich trying to get healthier and live for three more years and you know, have an ice bath. I think it's for how do we get it to a price point that the average person can have it in their pocket and be a member and it helps to make better health decisions. I know it's expensive now because we're doing it all manually. And so it's you know, quite a lost making entity right at this point, but not because I don't think the not because I think the unit economics will be the way that they are forever, but because I want to make sure that the services of equality that as we learn how to scale that we learn how to scale the very very best possible version of that. And so, you know, the challenge of an example being we tell compound members if they if they tell us a restaurant they go into that night we tell them what items on the menu are, you know, which ones should to avoid which ones to, you know, try and try and get what they might like, you know, like that type of thing. That's obviously a difficult thing to scale through manual, but like I imagine the eventual version of this does this really effectively. And so the role of technology is to lower cost, but we're doing it all manually alone. I think a lot of things never get off the ground because of the fear that it looks like a service can never be a product. Yeah. Can you sort of speak to what you're looking for as points of leverage in the compound experience that I guess is giving you the same back to go. That's interesting. Well, not to be like a Jenni Jenni fan boy kind of say the same thing everyone's ever sent on any podcast ever about. The big unlock of Jenni service interactions, hyper quality personalized service interactions is going the cost of delivering those is dropping by orders of back and shoot. Yeah. Right. And so if I can analyze somebody's diet diary and provide recommendations at the restaurant they're going to that night myself, it's not long before we can do that through an LLM it's probably doable now. And so our job is to be like which of these experiences on top of models are valuable to patients which ones are they like using and therefore we should we should be in including the interface. And so what I'm looking for is which parts of this experience we're delivering to patients really value. And so you know, do we need to be sending the meal kits? Do we need to be how much control of their diet should we actually be taking? You know, there's there's general heuristics around no sugar, no alcohol, no bread. All there is we will actually monitor and deliver every meal that you eat throughout the day. And I'm looking for where to be on that journey. Same with the exercise, right? Like doing resistance training and telling people how to do the basic sort of resistance training is one level. But actually most people don't lift properly. And I'm like I'm in this camp like one of the things I learned when I did my compound cohort is like I'm actually terribly inflexible and have never really spent any time in a gym. So when I do go into a gym, I'm like a walking injury. And so learning to lift properly was you know, a like a humbling experience because I had to go back to the very foundations of movement. But be built up so much more confidence in me that like if I do go to a gym now, I feel like I can do it safely. And so I'm now someone who will probably strength train for the rest of their life, whereas there was absolutely no chance that was happening, you know, before I had done compound. What else did you learn about yourself when you went through the compound journey? I learned that I like knew nothing really about nutrition as well. You know, I knew enough heuristic wise, but just the small parts of what I was eating, you know, I just like I learned that the habits were like quite, you know, I was I thought when I thought I was eating healthy, quite often I wasn't eating healthy. Like just like, all that I was eating, like I guess I would eat out a lot and a lot of the meals that I would eat out were just like really unhealthy. And I just kind of passed them through some vague measure of being like, yeah, it's got some protein in it and some vegetables in it and that's probably good enough. And I think that just proved to be like not true. And then I think the other thing that I learned was just like the value of novelty in exercise. So we did a wide variety of different types of workouts over the 10 weeks or so that we did it. And so I learned new things that I can now revert to as methods of training. So when I get bored of my usual running oriented workout world, I've got new things that I can lean on and learn from and kind of find energy in. So actually a much more balanced workout profile is something that's much better for me now too. - Let's move on to something slightly different. How have supply chain shortages? Did you ever hear ones impacted the business? - Yeah, I say subsist to that substantially. And so just for the context, for the last two years, there's been intermittent shortages of all GLP1 and related medications in Australia, the UK, Germany, every country which we operate. So how that affects us is our partner pharmacies who, so we're not a pharmacy SLS, our partner pharmacies are distributed medication. So we would typically pass the prescription to them or the patient would pass the prescription to them and then they would fulfill the medication and we would fulfill the services around that. And so to have none of these pharmacies have any medication for a period of sometimes a year or two years. I think like what it did was, it built like a lot of resilience into the organization. So we had the patient support teams here and the coaches teams here and the med support teams here, calling pharmacies, trying to help patients seek medications and find medications. We had conversations with the international drug manufacturers about when supply would be coming back. We had the entire kind of compounding era. So I think like, as like a lesson kind of extrapolated out, you know, it built a lot of resilience into the organization and into the team. And I think like lots of startups have these type of experiences, right? That are these like existential threats that are kind of binding for the group and things that kind of teach you what's possible under pressure. That you know, there are many, many canonical examples of pivots and crazy near death experiences for businesses where teams buying together and find a solution. And I think the last 18 months has been very much that for us in the sense of like, I think it's built resilience into the org but also like raise the ambition of what's possible because you know, if we can get our patients through that, then we can really make an impact on healthcare more broadly because it's forced us to build such deep relationships in the system as we've tried to navigate on behalf of our patients and advocate on behalf of our patients. So I think like now the ambition is way higher and the resilience is higher because of that as well. Do you have a story that comes to mind? - Okay, so maybe actually like the UK is a better example. That business had gotten off to a really good start. You know, had a few thousand patients and then all of a sudden like zero patients. And so we were talking to like every single wholesaler of medication, we actually own the pharmacy in the UK so it's a different system and talking to all of the individual wholesalers of medication and like it got to the point where we were talking to providers and they were like, yeah, we can get you 10,000 units and like we're like really, this seems to be a bit dodgy and so yeah, I've got like deep long-lasting relationships with these drug companies and so they're like you pay us, if you transfer us like a million dollars tonight, we'll get you the medication and so and it turned out to be like entirely fake. And so you've got like two people members in the team trying to pass whether or not these like secondary market people were legitimate and whether or not medications were legitimate and so and then the pharmacists are trying to work that out as well and so it's like these extremely intense high-pressure environment and then you kind of come through that and you've built a system which can, so like through that we built a system where like we could distribute medication, you know, from a lot of different types of pharmacies and different pharmacies and so now you're like, okay, well, the experience for patients is way better as supply kind of normalizes because we can get the medication faster and from more places and so it's a better experience but it was a painful one to get through. - What did you learn about sitting expectations and rallying around what's been really tough over the last 13 months? - Okay, so like I think like the generalizable experience for startups there and I think like when we last talked we were like everyone was in this growth at all cost mindset, right? So you're just sitting in front of your board and in front of potential investors and you're like this is gonna be huge and it's gonna be huge in these timelines and like it's gonna be a linear journey. I think everyone was extrapolating their early growth forward to the moon and it's just like humbling to see how quickly that can be not true, right? And so I think if you overly fixate on the short-term measures of success that come with growth, you are setting yourself up for a like a hollow type of growth and then be you're setting yourself up for that to you know, you keep turbulence and to not have the resilience to deal with that turbulence. I think we learned that like the hard way, you know, we obviously went through like a large redundancy and also just had periods where you know, businesses that were growing, you know, 20% month to month went to zero, not even zero growth but zero overnight. So like really, really volatile experience and so like what do you actually tell the team through that and you go well, do we believe in this category? Do we believe in the services we provide in this category? Do we believe in the experiences we're delivering to patients? Do we believe that this thing is gonna be enormously if we can get through this? And so the focus on resilience and getting through and providing high quality services to patients and you know, the short-term rewards from maintaining that faith with patients becomes much more with the conversation you have and much more like patient outcomes oriented conversation and then that feeds into a resilience in the org that then when you navigate through that it becomes like part of the culture that you've got that thing. And so you become less growth obsessed or oriented and much more focused around what you can achieve in the long term and what the milestones on the way there are and how you're much more patient oriented in that sense. - What's fascinating about the last episode? I think the quote literally at the beginning is like we're getting up basically to shock the business into re-raising its ambition and there are a few bets that were made and you mentioned the redundancies. It would be remiss of me to not ask you like what was the learnings from? - Yeah, I mean, that's exactly like that shocking the business into re-raising our mission didn't work, right? 'Cause like we didn't work at all because we had like we had like what the principal there was for those that aren't (beep) repart listeners is we thought that we could take on a whole lot of bets simultaneously we would learn how to do them and then we would eventually figure it out while we had heaps of time. And then once when the pressure came back on we would have the ability to do these things and so we would like figure out how to do them at scale. And so but like we never got through that phase. We actually just like created that complexity didn't resolve it 'cause it was extremely difficult and I like loaded up the business with too much complexity. And then when the pressure came, which was earlier than I imagined it was gonna come 'cause pressure doesn't come when you run out of money, pressure comes when your trajectory changes because you go from being fundable with heaps of cash to unfundable with lots of cash, to unfundable with not heaps of cash and then that's the point where things have to change fundamentally. And so actually while you're still unfundable with heaps of cash and what that really physically meant in the business is we're burning a ton of money plus our big bets weren't progressing as fast as we'd hoped then you actually have to change direction there. So you never get the kind of incubation time of shocking the business into a different trajectory because by the time you've changed the trajectory to for the worse, you're already at red alert. And so like the way that we pay for that mistake is we ended up having to make redundant a third of our workforce which is like it's such it was a really painful experience 'cause it was like directly derivative of my poor decision making around how to go to the next stage of scale. Like some things can teshely fell through and obviously the market changed but still I made those calls along the way. And so very formative for how I think about risk and bets now is the experience of going through that. We are much more considerate around the types of bets and the way we'll go about those bets and the way we'll fund those bets. Now then we would have been historically like I think, I think it's pretty popular startup trope to be like when you making a bet kind of go all in and like that idea of real high conviction. But at a certain scale you like a capital allocator as much as your step change innovator. And so getting your bet sizing right when you don't know what thing's gonna work or not 'cause you've got a business to protect as well as one to grow, he's a real challenge. And I think there's a lot more nuance to that than a lot of the truisms and tropes that you see talked about particularly by Americans where American businesses are often much more win or lose and often much more single mode in what they do. And so like there's much less respect for efficiency of growth and much less respect for kind of efficient allocation of capital. And so I think as an Australian business and wanting a kind of strange market, we had to learn that the hard way, I didn't originally dealt with the consequences and are now much more considerate around what bets we take and how we fund them. - So many places to dive in there. Maybe just to keep it simple like, share just an example of like how that, the learnings of being more conservative, being more efficient have then been repurposed back into the business at a much more operational. - Yeah, there's a really simple example, right? Which is, so like you're kind of looking for S curves all the time in when you're building growth businesses, right? You're looking for like the next driver of differentiated growth. And so for us, we were well-funded in the end of 2021, but actually none of our major bets were really yielding. And so what we did to cover for that instead of being like, "We're going to grow so far, we'll be more efficient." We just spent my money on marketing. and covered the gap with less efficient marketing, but more scale, right? So on the surface, it looked like we're growing as fast, if not faster than ever, but the underlying economics of that growth were far worse. And so we set ourselves up for a position where we'd sacrifice one about core operating principles around marketing efficiency to paper over the gap that our major infrastructure investments weren't yielding at the pace we'd hoped. And inevitably, we set two fires there because we had the existing infrastructure fire about that being too slow. And now a new marketing fire, which was what had been a very efficient growth, had become inefficient growth. And so you don't get to paper over inefficient growth because the only way to do that is to spend more money. And if you spend more money, you become less efficient. And so the only path out of inefficient growth is to slow down. And so we went through that pain in a real sense through 2022 and a much, much better business for that, like we just never let that happen anymore. We would go through periods of slow growth quite happily. And the market is much more tolerant of periods of slow growth. So that's the reality. And what have you learned about scaling internationally? - The Australia and companies should be an R, generally really good at this. So there is a natural cultural element to being Australian that drives like a acceptance of different cultures, I think, and then be a willingness to put yourself out there in different places. I think like just the inherent love of travel that is pretty common in where I'm like people Australians in their 20s when you compare that to American college students or others. I think that means that we're very fast adopters of new cultures. And so when American companies, when they go to Europe or they go to Asia, they're just cultural cancer. Because they don't know how to localize, they refuse to acknowledge the norms of other markets. And so Australians buy our culture should be really good at this. But often our lack of ambition as a country stops us doing that. So I've just learned that our teams largely made up of Australians up there talent-wise with anyone in the world. And so if you give them the infrastructure and back them in a bit of capital, then they can achieve really, really awesome things. And our UK team is probably 80% Australian. And is such a shining light for what landing in a market and winning that market can actually be. And so I'm just like super bullish on Australian companies' ability to go international. What are the differences in the healthcare landscape between the UK and Australia? What could we learn? So the NHS is in a tougher spot than the Australian healthcare system because they have a supply side crunch on practitioners that's much worse than our supply side crunch on practitioners. And so luckily Australia can be a net importer of doctors in huge numbers and that covers for some of the issues. I think 50% of practicing GPs are one outside of Australia. I think that's right. That might not be exactly right, but it's close. So that covers over some gaps. The UK has much more to adopt technology as a mechanism to cover those gaps. And so you see a much greater willingness to adopt technology at the practitioner level at the system level. And so therefore you see like a much more mature digital health landscape. I think that eventually comes here as well because the supply problems are real. But so you kind of have to see how they've got through the pain that they're dealing with and they're not fully through it at all. But the willingness to adopt technology as a mechanism of raising productivity is probably the number one thing I've taken from that market. If the weight management products are now such a big percentage of the business, how has your view on allocating capital evolved? - I think it's consistent with what we said originally. So if you go back to our say deck, which is out in the world now, it says in five years we'll have a $500 million revenue business and we made up a $1,250 million brand, $1,150 million brand and a bunch of $30 to $50 million. So we're five years in now. We're not close to $500 million, but hopefully we'll be there in the next couple of years. So be it overly optimistic. But composition wise, I think that is where we are. We have a leading brand in Juniper, a secondary really strong brand in pilot, a range of smaller brands and one that I'm really excited about the future of in compound. So I don't necessarily think we've been wrong there. I think we're in a phase where the focus is on Juniper, but that phase may or may not last forever. And we'll continue to like allocate into what we think the best opportunities are at a given time. - How does you cooperate with regulators? - Super proactively and I think like in the most part, regulators often get like a bad rap in like start-up and or kind of corporate world for red tape. I think actually we found Australia's regulators in the most part to be super pragmatic and super forward thinking particularly in the health side. So like we've had a lot of good conversations with the TGA over the lack of the business about how content on the internet around telehealth's gonna work. You know, there's been some situations where they haven't been supportive of what we're doing, but it's understandable. And then you've got the health department as an example of someone that is really forward thinking and gradually hard. And then I think like where you're running to some like more issues is where you have the doctor kind of like more like lobby groups or the colleges. I think like that that's where there tends to be more friction because they're representing these issues interests of what are largely like brick and mortar doctors who feel a little bit threatened by the model. But those aren't regulators, right? There's just industry bodies. So you have to have dialogue with industry bodies and when disruption is happening, then you're gonna have a dialogue with there's sometimes confrontation or with those industry bodies. But as long as like, you know, the regulators are working off a fact-based that we're supporting and trying to create, then I'm super confident in our dealings with them because I think like they're largely really practical. - Tell me about Tim in 2021 and Tim in 2024. - Yeah, I think like like the thing that I reflect almost is like kind of like naivety to the, I think like the same principles of company building, like I believed in then, but just like the naivety to the variants that could come, you know, which is so early in the journey. So I think like people shouldn't kind of speak like they've solved problems, you know, when they're in the first part of their cycle, or the cycle, then it's like series A time and like it's just like, you just don't really know anything yet, you know, kind of naive to the challenges that have come. Yeah, like I think that was the biggest thing and I think like now, so now like as, you know, being so much deeper in healthcare, you learn so much more about how, how in a healthcare organization works and how to deliver care at scale is like such a lesson and so hard one that I'm really, like some of them are really proud of that we can do. But you know, I hope like a lot of that, the same energy about I think like, we're listening back to those first two episodes, like I got a real feel for like the ambition of the company at the time being big and it's bigger than ever now. And so I feel really excited about what is to come and I think like, the thing that, I guess the thing that stands out about my thinking at the moment is, even though you are ambitious early on that you can build a really great, you know, globally impactful company, when the opportunity starts to actually like show itself is real, it's a whole different feeling. Like, you know, like a million patients feels within touching distance, right? Like a million full care patients feels close and that's like remarkable. And then 10 million, you know, it doesn't feel ridiculous. And so to think if we would be providing care to 10 million people is, you know, within five years time, it's just like amazing to me. And so, so yeah, I think like the 2024 version of me probably a little bit more. So I come back to and kind of aware of the ups and downs, but also I think hopefully like maintain the same sense of ambition. - What advice would you have to found us at, I don't know, series A, seed, listening back to your former self? - Yeah, I think like, what do I think to be sure? So I think like, the thing that I really reflect on a lot is that like being really good at the one thing that you're really good at early on, it gives you so much space and like don't give that up. Like I think I was very obsessed at the time about kind of building out a company that was like capable of doing all of these things and being all of these different, having all these different high functioning teams. And like that's really really important, but I also probably lost a little bit of focus on like what I like did best. And so making sure that I was able to create space and oxygen for the company by doing what I do myself well is something that I reflect on not being good at at the time that I wish I'd done better. And then I think the other part is building resilience into the organization is something that you can don't undervalue. Like I think what are the sources of competitive advantage that remain true through whatever cycle comes? I think like if you expose yourself too much to the big bet that you know you're thinking about doing and don't kind of continue to service the thing that works for you. You can explore the downsides like people disappear pretty fast when it comes to venture funding. And so building a durable business with maximum upside is a hard challenge, but like one that is really, really important. I think like we got enamored with maximum upside probably at the cost of durability. And I think maybe many founders have learned that probably over the last couple of years, but if someone could have told me that a couple of years ago maybe I would have been in a, the journey would have been less treacherous because of that. - What else? - Yeah, I think like the other thing that I think is really true is there's this temptation and it comes from a lot of the venture capital in Australia, which is to like hire more senior people, you know, hire, you know, you need this role, you need that role, you need to find someone who's done this, you need to find this, and a general take that I have is that most of the senior people in Australia are shit. And actually not that many people have done anything in Australia. And so, and a lot of the ones that have, you know, still in the organizations that they did the mat and they're still working hard there. And so I think like don't undervalue the great people that are early on the journey with them and don't undervalue their ability to grow and to change and to take on more responsibility. And it like it won't happen every time that they're able to do it overnight. But like, you know, I think every time I've stuck, or most of the times I've stuck with that, I've been really proud of the outcome. and many of the times I've done the opposite, I've been really disappointed with what has happened. So I think like venture capitalists and board members and people around the business will feel a sense of safety from more senior people being in the business 'cause they think there's a safe pair of hands. But the reality is, if you think you've got great people, they can become that and more if you stick with them. And so I think that's one thing that I reflect on as a piece of advice I try and give. - I love that. - It's an Australian thing as well, right? It's such an Australian thing to be like, oh, I need to get a big name, see chief operating officer from Stripe or whatever. And it's like, no, you don't. You don't. You don't. Your person's probably good. And also you can get him there and trust them because they're smart and they got to you. I don't know, I think it's not always true. Obviously these things are never always true, but I feel like too often we logo shop as Australian growth stage companies. - I think like, I remember having this debate with Helena and it was like, yeah, the hungry and other proven. And he's like, yeah, but if you can get hungry and proven, then when when problem being is your point just there, which is, it's hard to find that. - It's really hard, it's really hard. It's hard to find the hungry and the proven and then it's also expensive and like time consuming and like, I'm definitely not saying that like, you can't have a transformational senior hire if you get those things right. But like, I would say like the returns on cost and part of that cost being time for most companies are pursuing that is not positive. - Circling back, you didn't actually share what the new vision was. - Yeah, true, true, true. So we've gone to where our new vision is to make good health last the lifetime. What the undercurrent of that is or what we're trying to say there is, we are trying to orient the company around keeping people healthy. And so helping them make decisions in their lives to keep them healthy. And so whether that is being on medication or being on a diet or being on an exercise plan or some combination of all of those things or seeing mental health practitioner, we want to reach people when they need that early, provide those services to them and help them live long and healthy lives. I think not to be confused like the longevity movement, which is like extending healthy period people into living for 200. I think it's just like there are many, many things that the average person could do to improve their health and we want to be a part of that journey. And so removing the friction and the cost of doing those is the mission. - I love it, it's cleaner. Okay, with that as the anchor, what needs to be true to get closer to that vision over the next three years? - Yeah, I think like we have done the right to have a broader conversation with patients about their health. So when they give us information, we have to return value. And so when they track their weight with us and they track their nutritional intake with us and they track their mood with us, that has to turn into value. So I think of that in three parts. Like the first is we have to build a profile for those patients that is rich and information dense and interesting enough that they want to use it. We then have to off the back of that design interactions that feed that profile, but also interventions off the back of those interactions which can help them improve their health. So it puts it simply, it's like if they step on the scales and they report bad mood, how quickly can we provide a high quality response? And so that's a really, really important principle. And then if we can provide the high quality response, can we provide them with a set of options that may some of them may be monetizable that they want to then take up? And so in my really simple view, it's like I want to be the place where people go to manage their preventative health. And so we have to earn the opportunity to have that conversation and then deliver value in that conversation and then build out the ecosystem around that conversation. And so if we're in three years time and a patient comes to eucalyptus, maybe it's part of a fertility journey, maybe it's part of a menopause journey, maybe it's part of just a desire to lose some weight. We can deliver value straight out of the gate and then we can broaden that relationship and conversation to helping them manage their health. I think I'll be extremely happy with that in that way. A great part of the health ecosystem and hopefully a great business. - Makes some predictions. - Yeah, I mean I like predictions. I think what I'd love to see in 20, 27 for eucalyptus is I think like a million patients on active programs is a reasonable goal. I'd love to see 30 to 40% of those patients managing multiple conditions with us. I'd love to see 50 to 70% of those, probably 70% of those patients engaging with their health profile every day. And I'd love to see our brands being household names for the median Australian around, Australian person in the UK, a person in Germany in Japan about how they, the best way to manage their health. And there's a whole lot of research that will then hopefully blow off the back of that, hopefully in 100 published papers by that point. And the crowning jewel of that being, we're adding quality adjusted life years to people. I think that's the goal. - What's the advantage of being that honest? - Ah, that's a good question. I think like, look, when the first time we do this podcast and both times we've done this podcast and many of the other things that I've done is like, I think like trying to be transparent with what we think is possible. It tracks people to the business. I think like I was reading a kind of piece of content recently about like the interacting with the media and being honest and transparent in the way that you do that. And this huge cost to doing that, like reputation management is a two way street. But ultimately I think like you're gonna alienate people and you're gonna attract people and like I'm comfortable with alienating people. And so I wanna attract people to the business. I want people that are wanting to solve hard problems at real scale to feel like this is a place that they can do that with autonomy and control. And I, you know, that's been true for the business. I think like the first time we did this podcast there's never been a recruiting exercise like that. And so that's like a foundational truth for me and how I wanna communicate what you clip to see as and what it does. - Damn, Tim, thank you so much. - Thanks Mason. (upbeat music) - Thank you all so much for joining us for another episode of Wild Tarts. If you wanna learn more from other ambitious people building, designing and creating the world that we all wanna live in, then please hit the subscribe and follow button. It would mean the world to us, the founders, the operators and the investors who join us on Wild Tarts. This podcast is a labor of love from Blackbird and our production team. The show is produced by Joel Connelly of Blackbird. Our marketing genius is Laura Coford and our editor is Andy Jones. Thank you all so much for listening and we'll see you all next week. (upbeat music)