Becoming like Jesus with Matt Chandler

(upbeat music) - Hello, saints and aates. - Hello, Michelle. - Hope you're doing good. Whatever good is. - That was the Asmel and Collie issue of the opening. - I am trying my best to be hope- - We take it. That was like a, you know, like, be a cry of peace. - A lot this morning to get it all out of me. - Oh, wow. - It's fine. - And then we're on with a little tears. - Yeah, it's, it's, you know something I discovered the other day. - What it is. - This is yesterday. - Y'all like how I say what it is. - Yeah. - So honestly speaking, me and Preston are just in a very interesting season of life. And so, where things are, hard, complex, complicated, all the stuff. And so like, I randomly stumbled on, you know, like when you like are like praying and you don't know where to go, it's like, do I go to Psalms? Do I go to Matthew? Do I go to Revelation? I randomly was like, I'm just going to Chronicles. And so I just turned to Chronicles chapter 20 randomly. And it's talking about Jehovah's the Fat. And the King is real. Don't name your kids that. - Oh, that's what I just thought. Like what's the name, baby, Jehovah's the Fat? - Come in Jehovah's the Fat. - I think you're gonna make a really hard time for them in elementary school. - But anyway, I read about the man in the King Israel long story short, eventually, there's all this stuff happening and all this things. And there's a lot of stress. And they simply say to God, we don't know what's going on. We don't know what to do, but we're gonna keep our eyes on you. And I said, that's it. I'm like, that's the thing. When you're going through stuff. - I love to buy, but the buyback is such simple, but yeah, profound wisdom. That's why we know the book is alive. - Tell me about it. - I wanna switch subjects real quick. Y'all know the last episode before last. Jackie was like, like, joining my house shoes. Why for Valentine's Day? She came here to look care back. - I did. - And she got me some new house shoes, y'all. 'Cause y'all was roasting me for a good week about that shoes. - No, they were horrific. - They were horrific. - So they were horrific. - No, but I think you made them. - You had no art support. - I think. - Well, I'll get through this house flat for you. - I think you wonder why you're back here. - I think you made them almost 40. - You made them look super-- - You made them sing worse than they really were. They're really good. - No, they were worse. - These are nice though. I like these better. I use those house shoes. - And that was just, that's intermediate. That was just, I was at Target. I said, Valentine's Day is coming up. We don't really do big things, but it's Valentine's Day. And that, 'cause they don't even fit and you're still wearing them. - They stretched, but they kinda fit now. - Yeah, we don't have to make it work. That's the thing. - I kinda felt the way they do it. - We make enough money. - I kinda felt the way I said, Jackie bought this for her. Not for me, 'cause she hated my other shoes. - I just said you needed our support. But welcome to our basement, Mr. Pastor, evangelist, profit teacher, apostle, a revivalist. I think you have wake air is mad, I don't know. Matt Chandler. - Yeah, I'm more than halfway. - Okay. - Man, you're the only person that can call myself. - You're the only person that can call myself. - You're the only person that like laughed doing our banter. Everybody else kinda like does it this? - You like, you didn't care. I was in, I was a couple times, I wanted to jump in there. But I was like, it ain't time yet. Let me just wait 'til they queue it over here. - It's an honor to have you. - Do you have house shoes? - I do have house shoes. - What they look like. - They look like, I don't learn what-- - He's gonna say they do like house shoes. - What they look like, house shoes? - Yeah, there's loafers. They look like loafers. - Oh, they like leather? - No. - Swade. - And do they clunk? - They don't clunk. There's a hard bottom. - So you hear the hard bottom. - No, I'm a lot on my feet, sis. I don't know what that woman's saying over there. - She'd be hating on my house. - No, 'cause the way of you started clunking through here, I was like, we got-- - My bad, don't hurt those. So I got some good, arch support in the family. - Praise God. Well, we thank you for being here. Matt, what should, I ain't gonna lie to you. I don't remember the title of your book. I love you. I don't remember. - You're fun. It's called Becoming Like Jesus. - I remember-- - I remember-- - Thanks Preston. - Thank you. - It's fun. I don't need you. - I just remember, we'll have some graphics. - I just, I had to go for it, which I said, I was crying this morning. You gotta be okay. Okay, but coming like Jesus, obviously, the fancy term for that would be like sanctification. Before we started, you said you feel ready. - Yeah. - To communicate this now. Why? - Well, I've been the pastor of the same church for almost a quarter of a century now. Been with the same people. Like, one of my favorite parts of my role right now is that some of those like wild and out 20 somethings that became Christians my first couple of years are now married kids, baptizing their kids, having cataclyzed them in and around the truth of God is and what he's accomplished. And so to be able to watch the seasons, to be able to watch the highs and lows produce, is a privilege and something I've fallen in love. It's one thing to kind of know it in my own life. I've had a lot of wins, I've had a lot of losses. Been in the paper for both. And it's one thing to experience the goodness of God in the valley and on the mountain and in the mundane, just in the Tuesday. But then to watch it play out in hundreds of lives, thousands of lives over a multi decade experience has really just given me all the confidence in the world that come what may God is at work. And so I wanted to write on it. I don't like that it seems to be a gap right now in the evangelical imagination. Like even reading stories of deconstruction and they're not all this, but a great deal of them are, you know, a game of life to Jesus and life was still hard. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And I'm always just like, what gospel did you hear? - Yeah. - Like who preached this to you? Who confused you like this? Like Jesus just right there going, hey, in this world, you have some trouble. Take heart. - Yeah. - And he done waste it, man. So that's a long, I'll ramble, but that's why I wrote the book now. Feel like I've seen it enough, confident enough, and I love the process. - I was just gonna say, I think what's important about that is I think when you've seen the reality that God is with us, that God changes us, that God changes people, it means that you communicate with some measure of hope. - That's right. - You know, 'cause I think in the sanctification conversation in particular, I think I've been wrestling with how despairing it can be to feel like you're always hitting a wall when it comes to certain character flaws, or always hitting a wall when it comes to certain people you're praying for. And so I think to even have a work where you have hope that's gonna come through, and I think that's important. - Yeah, one of the ways I try to describe it is I try to kind of expose the up and to the right metaphor as being false. Nobody got up into the right in the Bible. - And what's up into the right? - So it's this idea that if you're graphing your spiritual growth, it's just continuing to, you're getting happier, you're experiencing more joy, you're making more money, you have more sex, you're having more, right? Everything, all your kids fall in love with the Lord by the time. You know, they're four, you know, commit to the 1040 window and kindergarten. And it's more like a horizontal coil where every high and low actually is still moving you forward. So the Christian life isn't about wins and losses. It's about staying tethered to Jesus, whether you feel like you're winning or you feel like you're losing or everything's going your way or nothing's going your way, the call is stayed tethered to Jesus, keep saying yes, and he will use all of that to form you. So even what can feel like a loss to us is still moving us forward. Like you got a wayward prodigal child and the heartbreak of that and the pain of that, it's still moving you forward, right? When they come to know by the grace of God Jesus 'cause you're playing the long game and you web your eyes out, then you're still being formed, right? When you're healthy, being formed, when you're sick, being formed, and it might be that low part of the coil where the best work is done, not the place we want to be, but where the best work's done. - Yeah, yeah, that's really good. I want to tell you something some years ago, when I first started to kind of get introduced to sound theology, early on in my walk, I read your book, "Explicit Gospel." And I read it line in the book that made me feel the way at first. I was like this man don't know what he's talking about. - Did you know this story? - You shared it with me at PAO several years ago. - I did, 'cause this is significant. Go ahead, tell the people. - Yeah, 'cause you said the far most desire of God's heart is not our salvation for rather the glory of his own name. And in my mind, I was like, "Wait, God loves us to be saved." What are you talking about? But then when I started to grow in my faith, I realized how true that was. And that God does everything for his glory. And my mind had to kind of rework and trained. And so I guess my question is, as you've been a pastor for so many years, can you talk about all the things that God has allowed to happen in your life that wasn't necessary favorable? - Oh, sure. - Or pleasing that all of the things Now you see it happened because of his glory. - Yeah. (upbeat music) I mean, what had the first seven years my marriage with Lauren was absolutely brutal. Like, I can't believe this is my life brutal. And I know she's in the room. It wasn't like she was laying in the bed next to me, thinking all her childhood, all her girl, her dreams had come true. It was just rough, man. We were missing each other. Two different backgrounds, two different ways of being brought up, two different insecurities, like everybody else, right? Mashed together. So that was humbling and brutal. And the Lord's really used that in a marvelous way, both in our own testimonies and our ability to love on people and our appreciation for what it is now. 'Cause we remember when it wasn't this. And then I had this, this is the one everybody else remember, so then I got brain cancer. And the O-None. - When you had a low cut. - Yeah, it was low low, sis. It was as long as it's ever been. - I ain't what cut you ball here. - You're fine, it's fine. You've got some she bears out here in the woods. Is that what you nervous about? - I just remember to look at the thing. - Yeah, I had a seizure on Thanksgiving morning, on 2009 in front of our three kids. And Lauren had to dial 911 and they found a golf ball size tumor in my right frontal lobe. And then full resection of the right frontal lobe that Friday after, a week after Thanksgiving. And then 18 months, high dose chemo and radiation. And they said, I'd have two to three years to live. And that was, well, it was 2009. So we're coming up on 17 years ago. - Wow. - Man, I've made foolish mistakes as a leader. And I think one of the things that I didn't know when I started ministry is the ways that I would mature as both leader and shepherd and pastor and teacher. What oftentimes come at the cost of other people. I would make mistakes and hurt people. And not even know I was doing it. I'd be pure hearted in the motive, but you just don't know what you don't know. And then some of those mistakes became public and some of them didn't and I was able to repent quietly. And so yeah, those are some of the more significant. - That's good. - Kind of lows. And then man, I've got all sorts of incredible highs to the Lord's been crazily gracious to us, man. Like don't make sense to us. - Yeah, it's beautiful, it's beautiful to see because when we look in the scriptures every leader, we see highs and lows. You know, see highs and lows in David Paul, all of these people, but God has used it all for his glory. And he's still doing the same thing in this people. Now all of us, I just want to commend you because I think that you've been a good leader publicly. I don't see you privately often. But yeah, even the humility that you walk with now is inspiring, you know what I'm saying. Thank you brother. - Yeah. This morning I was driving and thinking about how, I think we have a generation, like every generation that wants to be wise and wants to be godly. But I think there's this tendency to short circuit the means by which that actually happens. - Mm-hmm. - You know, 'cause I was just thinking about how, you know, I know a lot of things, you know, I read a lot of stuff. But I feel like it's actually the last year or two with difficulty that I feel like, oh, I'm getting it. - Yeah. - You know what I'm saying? It's starting to settle because I'm being forced into a position to believe it. Like it's like the Lord is putting me between a rock and a hard place. - Yeah. - Where that stuff is just now, I can't explain it. It's just, it's settling. But I think the temptation can be to give up before the fruit really like does this thing. And so I guess even in the 20 years of you past during even in your life, how have you stayed tethered? - Yeah, well, I think there's two things people will be tempted to do if we think about maturing in, you know, becoming more like Jesus. The first would be to just walk. The one I see most frequently though, in the church world is what I would just call, and I don't think this is my term. I just don't know where I got it. I'll call spiritual bypass. - Okay. - And so they haven't been through it. But maybe they've read it in the text or they've read a spurge in quote about suffering. And what they'll try to do is either with theological language or with Holy Spirit deliverance language, they want to bypass the going through so that they can pretend to know. And it ain't the same thing like to cognitively in your prefrontal cortex, know that low I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for your run staff, protect me. It's one thing to have that verse in your prefrontal cortex. It's another thing to have walked through the valley of the shadow of death and found yourself fearing no evil because the presence of God was unique and present in a way that you had not experienced before because He had given you grace for what you might go through. He gives you grace for what you do go through. And so I think, I often say to the men and women with the village, if you don't quit, you win. Like if you don't quit, you win. Like one day at a time, and if that's too much then one hour would at a time. And the promise of the Lord and the story of his character is that he will not leave you, nor forsake you, if not a band and you sworn by his own name to get you safely home. He started this, he'll finish this, but when did he say he would finish it? The coming, the coming. Which means however long you've been a Christian until you stop breathing or he returns, he's at work. So I saw this video years ago of J.I. Packer, like 80 something, like not long before he died. They were asking him just about what his faith looked like and his whole talk was on repentance. Like what was his 80 year old J.I. Packer? How you, I thought he stopped repenting when he was 50. But he was talking about being so agitated and so frustrated at his age, that his mind couldn't do things and that his body couldn't do things that he was still hungry to do. And that that frustration had let him into some sin. And so he had been just repenting of his said, that's what his faith looked like. I'm like 80 year old J.I. Packer. Like theologian knowing God writing, monster in the face is 80. And it's like dang it. I got to repent again. And I love that moment. It helped me go, oh yeah, I hope when I'm 80, my spirit's tender enough to be like dang it, I'm doing it again. That's good. That's good. And I think this book is for every Christian. I mean, becoming like Jesus is something that we all should strive to do, right? But in the second chapter, literally at the point. Right. Literally the point of Christianity, it's such a universal book for every believer. But in the chapter two, you talked about the Beatitudes, which was kind of interesting for someone to kind of highlight it in the way that you did. So I think we should go through them, you know? I love it. And also talk about how the Beatitudes help us be become like Jesus. And so can I explain what the Beatitudes are? And then I guess we can talk about it a bit more. Quick question. I've never thought is what does Beatitude mean? Like what does that word? So Beatitude is-- Are they characterizes of the-- Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're saying like a Beatitude would be a saying. And he's saying in those sayings, basically. I'm making the argument in the book. Jesus didn't come to find these people. He came to make them. So Jesus doesn't like-- He ain't like a checklist or a ladder where he's showing up and looking at your life, going, OK, they pour in spirit. They got mercy. No, no, no, he's come to make these people. So why I embedded the book in the Beatitudes is because if you want to know where you're going, you want to know what this actually looks like. Well, man, look at these eight things. These are the eight things Jesus is forming in you that actually make you more and more like Him. And I make the argument that it's-- like you'll go through them over and over and over and over again, but each time you go through it it'll be a little bit different. It would have danced with another one of the Beatitudes so your experience. So I've been following the Lord now for 33 years. And I have learned blessed are the pouring spirit about 10,000 times. And I'm sure I've got another lesson on being pouring spirit coming again. But each time I learned that lesson, I've learned it a bit differently. I've absorbed it a little bit more quickly. It's been from-- think about like turning a jewel around your different facet of lowliness that gets me the kingdom of God. That's the promise. And so that's the Beatitudes Jesus saying, hey, this is the good work I'm going to accomplish in you. So I kicks it off that way. I love what you say. This is a quote in your book. My words are very small. So bear with me. It says, as helpful as checked lists are, it is important to note that we should get started about that the Beatitudes are not a checklist of spiritual goals. They are not a staircase to heaven, nor a performance rubric for the super spiritual. They are a portrait of a person. A person Jesus is forming through us, a lifelong spirit and power process of sanctification. That's it. I love that. You break that down, which you mean by that. Yeah, we are such a. Maybe it's just Western culture. I think it is. We are a checklist, measure, how far have we come? How many steps do we get today? What's our macros? How's. I mean, we measure everything. But relationship, which is how you're formed. Uh-huh. The presence of Jesus. Relationship. That's harder to measure. And so even the Beatitudes, they feel intentionally. Like it's gonna be hard to grade this one. Yeah. Like how do you grade mercy? Yeah. How do you grade loneliness? Uh-huh. How do you know you're there? Because you're gonna have to go through it again. Like you have to show mercy a million times in your life in this world. Like you try to draw close and have authentic belonging with any group of people. You're gonna need mercy. It reminds me of my grandma. You can't be humble and proud about it. There's something there. She's to always say that. And it's like, how do you measure humility? It's like, "Oh, I'm real humble now." It's like, "How do you do the most humble man I know?" Right? I don't go any work. You know, that's good. That's good. Well, let me read it so that we have in our systems. So this is Jesus because it's the red words, even though the Bible is free now. Oh my God. Matthew 5, "Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying, "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy. Blessed are the pure and heart for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted, out, for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you and others, revile you and persecute you and other all kinds of evil against you, falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad for your reward is great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets who are before you." This is the word. It's the word of the Lord. Amen it is. We use the word "Blessed a lot." It's a part of our Christian dialect in jargon. What is blessing exactly? Because I think some people read this blessed as unhappy. Well, technically speaking, the word there in Greek is happy are those. The way it's working in the Greek, it seems like the Lord is saying, like he's giving you the objective state of who you are when you're in the process. Like I'm seeing you. It's the way the Lord is watching you. I'm sorry, sister. I'll talk to you. I'm sorry sister. I'll talk to you. Freaks to us. So if you look at the Greek word, it is the Greek word for happy. What's happier those who mourn for they shall be comforted is God, Jesus saying, here's going to be your objective state. God's view of you in this process, in this coil of highs and lows. And I always say, I think what's in view there, this is how I write about it. I think what's in view here is not 2026 definition of happiness, but more biblical joy. So 2026 happiness, gosh, just call it happiness over the last multi decade, nonsensical train wreck of cultural issues is almost all built around life circumstances. But biblical joy seems to hold regardless of life circumstances. So what you're being promised in the be attitudes. And I would say what you're being promised in Christian joy is not that, like again, I'm sound like a broken record. It's not everything's going to go your way. It's that God will be with you in the mess and that the joy that you have is the presence of your creator who will not create distance from you and who presses into your failures, your longings, your disappointments, your heart breaks, your losses with great comfort, which is the promise to those who mourn. Why? Why do you have Christian joy when you mourn? Well, because you're being comforted. By what? The lifting of the lost, disorientation, discombobulation heartbreak. Now, you go through that. It doesn't lift. You go through. But he's with you through it. And that's the blessedness. That's the happiness. That's the state of the soul. That's a good question. Is joy an emotion? I think it can be. I think it can also be a decision to focus your heart's attention and minds devotion on what's most true. So I talk a lot in the book about reality. That part of what I'm doing is I go through the coil is I'm re-acquainting myself with reality over and over and over again. But I'm turning my attention, turning my heart's devotion to what I believe is most true toward the one who sits at the center of reality as it's defining king. And joy can be found in making that turn. And then I think the experience of joy, the oil of gladness down the beard occurs when you've shifted your mindset and heart affection to the one who sits at the center of reality. Yeah, because what I'm sorry. Because what I hear, what you all talked about a lot in chapter 2 and 3 is really perspective, having the right perspective. Because what I hear you saying even with that is when you think about joy, having joy sometimes when you're going through something, if you have a perspective that you're paying attention to the power of God's presence, I think whatever you go through that would allow you to have joy in peace and all the things. Because I think when I've been going through things, it was way easier for me to focus on what I was going through instead of meditating on the fact of who's with me when I'm going through it. And so I think meditating on the power of presence can help us have a different perspective. And that I have someone to trust with this. Yes. I think joy is born of that moment when I get the diagnosis, cancer, Dagnia. I have three babies. Yeah. I have a six year old, a four year old, and a six month old. Jesus. Where am I going with this? Yeah. Like where am I going? Yeah. Like am I going to this doctor? Just said that we're going to poison you for the next couple of years and it's probably all you get. Okay. Where am I going? Well, I'm going to the one who can hold it. Like he gives us that place to go. Come what may. Yeah. Doesn't matter what the law says. It doesn't matter. We have a place to go. Yeah. The things I've learned in evangelism is that we're surrounded by people who ain't got nowhere to go. We're just surround like when I started training Jiu-Jitsu, those guys. Yeah. And I mean, just some rough neck. Let me see. It's something right. If that's your high, you know. And I would just after a role just be like, "Hey man, I got some time set aside this afternoon to pray. I'd love to pray for you. Anything I pray for you about?" Yeah. I don't have these like men with gauges and like skull tattoos on that start weeping in front of everybody and tell me about. They're marriage. They got nowhere to go. Yeah. That's true. And Christian joy is born that come what may. No matter what happens, no matter how misunderstood I mean, you just walk through the beatitudes. No matter how my heart is broken. No matter how much I'm longing and hungry, like he's there. Yeah. I've got a place to go. That's so beautiful. And that's joy is born of trust. Yeah. That's one of the two things I've learned about evangelism the most is the thing that encouraged people when I used to evangelize on the streets is letting them know what they would, and what they would create it for. And then finding the place of belonging. They just wanted to know what to want belonging in this world. And the fact that the Christian kind of has that sense that no matter what we go through we still have a place. We still have a person that we can go to is huge. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's somebody who wrestles with joy often. Sure. You know, I'm just being melancholy doing all the stuff. I think what has helped me is to anticipate that sometimes you have to wait on it. You know, I think it can be frustrating where it's like, well, I pray or I read or I was a fellowship, I worshiped and I'm still unhappy. I'm still sad. I'm still confused. And I think that joy comes in the morning tells me to anticipate that it is coming even if it's not coming at the pace that I would prefer. And so I just think that helps to settle and moderate our, even our expectations of stuff because I've found that even when it does come, it's not like a shot of a. You know, it's not, it's not that it's a, a settledness that I think is really mysterious because it's, it's something that happens. I think in the process of clinging and crying and depending where you just experience one but weight being lifted and you can't explain why. You know what I'm saying? So I just, I don't know. I just want us to know like, it's coming in the morning, but it is coming. Yeah. (upbeat music) - When I've taught on Christian Joy before in particular, when Vince Young won the national title with the Texas Longhorns, I don't know what year it was, like O506, they're playing USC, and there's this picture, you can Google it, you know, after you're done listening or as you listen, I don't know, everybody multi-tasks, but of Vince Young running into the end zone to score the game-winning touchdown right as time expires, and a USC cheerleader, or Palm Squad member, like is jumped in the air with her palms up high yelling, like she clearly doesn't understand what just happened. And I think sometimes Christians can think Christian Joy looks like that cheerleader. - Mm-hmm. - And like I don't, like I am frequently bothered as a pastor I've tried to shepherd it out of the village as best I can. I don't need you to give Jesus the spirit sprinkles when your world's burning to the ground. - Yeah. - Like, well, I always want to point out, and I do this in the book, so I want to point out those prayers in the Bible that I don't hear anybody praying anymore. - Yep. - Like you change home groups, it's certain people in your home group started praying like Moses, or Nehemiah, or David, or I mean those brothers were not, they were frustrated with the Lord's Senate. Then I wonder if confession, I don't think this is me, I just think I read it somewhere, and I don't know. I don't think confession is just telling God the bad stuff. We've done, I think sometimes it's just telling him the truth. - Lamenting. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Lament, that's the stuff that's gone that. How long will Lord will you forsake me? Will you forsake me forever? Are anybody praying like that? I mean, world on fire, life burnt to the ground, and bumper sticker theology. - Yeah, 'cause I think that theology has to die, because I think the Bible tells us that we, "Server God was a Quainer with grief." It's not like he himself is not a Quainer with sorrows, and so I think he can relate to us, and all of the ways in which we show up and exist, our hearts not loaves, and so he's with us in the suffering, so yeah, tell him I'm frustrated. - Yeah. - And that's what it feels like to be frustrated. - So back to, we have somewhere to go. And where's Christian joy born? Not only do I have a place to go, but I have a guy who can hold this. - That's good. - He knows it's scary to be us. - That's good. - That's what the writer of Hebrews is saying. - Yeah. - We have an empathetic hyper-east. - That's good. - That's what we do. - And chapter three, you talk about, you emphasize being like porn spirit. And it was very interesting how you talked about being porn spirit and how it leads to humility, and kind of how humility gives us a self-awareness of us, a rifle awareness of us. And that was interesting. Can you touch on that? - Yeah, one, I think there's some theologians that think that the Beatitudes are, that cascade into one another, that one leads to the next leads to the next leads to the next. And I think your first time through, it does. And then I think afterwards they start dancing together and one's leading to a greater growth in the other and the other one is picking up and strengthening another. And then now you're dancing. But the first time through is everybody starts with being porn spirit. There's no way that you can come to the Lord. And really the word there is baggly. - Right in that wild. - It is. - Not just low. - So you hit me googling this morning. I was reading chapter three this morning. I was like, baggly. - I'm a beggar in the field. - And so, and then you start to break down like all the, I was like, this is good. God, what's me to beg? - Baggly. - But, but delighted and but baggly. The Lord honors loneliness. He honors, I mean through Genesis to Revelation, he honors loneliness. And so like in my own life, I don't always want, like here I am 30 something years into following him. Sometimes I'm looking for ways to get low. Like instead of just him handing me the loneliness, I'm trying to find it. Where could I fast? Where could I stay low? Where should I keep my mouth shut? Where could I write? I'm trying to find those spaces to keep developing that. 'Cause when he hands it to me, it needs to be a little heavier. - Yeah. - It needs to be a little heavier. - You say that the relationship between being poor and spirit and sanctification is that God creates circumstances and trials that produce that dynamic in you? - Certainly. And then I've created some of those dynamics myself by being a moron. And the Lord, because he's committed to me in Christ, will sometimes let the foolishness of my actions land on me in a way that reminds me that I'm not as smart as I think I am. And I'm not as charismatic as I think I am. Not as cute as I think I am. And so there are certainly situations that are beyond me that the Lord holds into my life. And then there are certain situations where I didn't slow down and listen and I just thought I knew and I dove head first in and he let me reap. Not probably not all of it, but enough of it to remember. To remember I am as smart as I think I am. - It makes me think about how like, you know how Philippians says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling and how, I've said this often how we participate with God in sanctification is not like we're just passive and not doing nothing. And I think one of the ways to participate with him in this is not to resist it. - Blah. Like when you're in a situation, 'cause I think if you like me, you don't wanna be needy, you don't wanna be dependent, you don't beg, huh? - beg. - He wants me to, you know what I'm saying? So you try to control your life in such a way to not be as dependent and as needy as you are. And so to actually lean into it is to actually help, I guess produce what he says will happen, which is like bless our point. For there's this kingdom of heaven, hold on, I just moved, what did me? I have never studied this passage ever in my life. - Exactly, that's surprising, that's surprising. - You are the commentary. - Yeah, so the kingdom of God is the rule and reign of Jesus. And you stay low, you're gonna see the rule and reign of Jesus. Like you stay low, you'll see his power. You stay low, you'll taste his victory, you stay low, and you'll push back darkness and see order brought into chaos. That's the kingdom, that's what Jesus came preaching. In fact, as I'm intro in the Beatitudes, all Jesus is preaching up until this first banger of a sermon is the kingdom of God has come. The kingdom of God has broken into the world. So he's saying the rule and reign, my rule and reign is here. And then you just watch him flex on everything. Like all the crazy stuff we see in the Old Testament, you don't see a single demon driven out in the Old Testament. And then here comes Jesus and just flex him, just cast him. Not nobody arguing, nobody, there ain't no dualism there. There's not one that's like, he needs to fast to get it out. He's like, nah, and the kingdom is broken in. Like, and it's here. And the lowly, the poor in spirit, the beggarly in spirit, I have nothing to offer you. They see the king. Jesus. That's good. And he frames it because he, the last beatitude is what? Persecuted for righteousness sake. What do they get? The kingdom. Yeah. So I love that. I love how he bookended that. I love how having, being poor in spirit gives us a proper perspective of God. But can you talk about how being poor in spirit gives us a proper perspective of ourselves? And how, in seeing ourselves, rightfully, it can help us be better Christians, better disciples, all of it, all of the things. Yeah. I think there can be, if you're living checklist Christianity, which I think would be called moralistic deism. Yes. If you're living that, then you can get to feeling yourself. You really can't. Yeah. You can get into, man, you ain't getting high like you used to, you ain't getting drunk like you used to, you ain't looking at porn like you used to. And you're going to get a little, you just get a little swaggering instead and you start feeling yourself. That ain't how the Lord sees it. That's not the Lord's grid. The Lord's about inside out, which is again, if we keep reading the sermon on the Mount, he's going to go hard at. Yes, he does. He's heard it said, but I say to you, and what's he always after the heart? You tell me I'll behave your modification. I'm talking about transforming your heart. Yes. When you tell me about the same thing. That's good. And so the way that you begin to cultivate pride in your life is when you start grabbing hold of like moralistic deism and you're turning this relationship into a checklist so that God owes you something. And now who's the God if you put God in debt? Well now you just exalted yourself to divine and you've made Jesus your Aaron boy. Wow. If this is relational and I've come in beggarly, then I see myself rightly. So even when people, like if I'm with people who praise me, like I'm quick to go, oh brother, you ain't seeing right or says, I feel like Jacob. I mean, I do. I feel it right. a scoundrel on whom the Lord's favor rests. No one's more confused by my life than I am. No one. No one's more fearful for what I'm stewarding than I am. Like I feel that in my guts. Like I don't know what this is. I don't pretend I just want to be near him and love him and I want to just let him do what he wants to do. I just feel terrified in this sometimes. Yeah, because I thought about that when I was reading your book about you know being like like porn spirit. It kind of gives us a it doesn't allow us to be too high. That's right. And it doesn't allow us to be too low because I think we can try to own two sides of the extreme. Yes. Like you either really prideful or you just doing all this self-loving and pity pity. Yeah the way we say we we talk about is a stay low and stand up. That's good. Stay low and stand up. That's good. I'm still that. No, it's all you. I probably did. So it's fine. Yeah, but it's good because I think I think being porn spirit gives you a proper perspective of yourself. Yeah. Your own heart because God can't use somebody with. They only see themselves. No. You know, and I think it gives us a proper perspective of God. So that's really dope. It's really dope. I think before we move to blessed are those who mourn it immediately made me think of how that changes our understanding of relationship with power. Sure. You know, just to say blessed are the porn spirit for theirs is the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Breaks and through brokenness and beggardliness and all the things. I think we think being strong is the way that being smart is the way or the technique. Yeah, like it's a technique. It's it's how can I make it happen when it's like on my face is how it happens. Yeah. And that that takes a lot of reorientation. But I think the Lord is like, yeah, that's kind of great. The Kingdom is servant of all. Yeah. With the pairs is produced by the pair with support from Amanda Reed and Channing McBride video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairly edited by the team at Trent Lively. Art work by Hobb. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.