Because of God and Good People!

- Hey, and welcome to Journey with Jesus. I'm your host and author, Johnny Singh. And this is a platform that's dedicated to your spiritual uplift and Christian encouragement. Today, we've got a pretty special guest with us as we almost always do. We've got Hiram Kemp and he's gonna be tuning in live all the way from Kentucky. So I'm excited for him to share his journey with Jesus with you and with me. And ultimately, hopefully we can get some encouragement from it. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hey, and welcome back to Journey with Jesus. Thank you again for joining us today with today's episode. We've got a friend of mine and hopefully he's gonna become a friend of yours as well. Hiram Kemp, go ahead and say hi, Hiram. - Hey, what's going on, Johnny? Good to see you, ma'am. - Yes, sir. So, Hiram, you're in Bowling Green, Kentucky, correct? - That's right. - Yeah, tell us a little bit about yourself, man. For those that don't know you, I'd like to know a little bit about you. Who are we talking to today? - Yeah, so my name's Hiram. I preach for the Cumberland Trace Church of Christ in Bowling Green, Kentucky. I've been here since 2021. When I came, we were the Lehman Avenue Church of Christ, but we moved a couple of miles down the road, in January to this new location. But I've been here about almost four years, September before years. Mary to Brittany, we've been married since 2009 and we've got two kids, Nadia and Andrey. Nadia's 12, Andrey is 10. My mom moved here when we moved. So my mom is living here too. And yeah, it's been a good time. I've been here like I say almost four years and of course you and I met at F-SOP, but yeah, it's been good. - Yeah, so Hiram was one of my lecturers in the Florida School of Preach and I was entry, culturally in, and of course, we got to exchange some relationships as a result of that. So we've kept in contact, but now you were born and raised in Florida. Is that correct or am I mistaken? - Kind of, yeah, so my dad was in the army and I was born in Colorado Springs, but I don't remember Colorado. I was raised in Florida though, I grew up in the Miami area in Coverenches, which is a city in Hollywood in Hollywood, Florida. So that's why I'm from, grew up there and then went to college in Daytona. So I was raised in Florida, but I was born in Colorado Springs, yeah. I was raised there, went to college in Daytona and that's where I became a Christian and where things really, really changed for me. But yeah, Florida's been mostly. - Yeah, I didn't know your dad was in the military man so you were raised in a constant military type lifestyle - Oh, no, no, my dad did one term in the military from what I knew and then he moved to Miami with my mom and then they divorced and so like, I've got a relationship with my dad, but I wouldn't raise by him and we weren't this like, pack up and move military family. He met my mom when he was in the army, did one term and then moved to, you know, they moved to Florida and they divorced and then from that point on, we just stayed in Florida. His family was in Miami still is and all of that, but yeah, I lived in Florida from that time on. - Yeah, so you said you went to college in Daytona and you were raised in Hollywood? Was it kind of like, what was your study? What were you really specifying at that time? - So when I went to college, I had taken a bunch of courses in criminal justice in high school, I wanted to be a lawyer. So I majored in criminal justice, I did. I probably was, but I didn't want to be known but I probably was, but I went to study criminal justice at the Thuncourtney University, which is a HBCU historically black college university in Daytona and I went there, studied criminal justice under graphic for four years. With the idea that I was gonna go to law school after it took pre-law classes there at night classes and other things prepping to take the L side and yeah, that's what I wanted to do before I became a Christian and then just career trajectory change and all of that. But yeah, I went to school for criminal justice with the hopes of being an attorney when it was all said and done so. - Yeah, now you said that's where you became a Christian or came in contact with Jesus. So you became a Christian a little later in your life as opposed to most that were raised in the church, though I would suppose you weren't raised in the Christian environment or in the church. - Yeah, I guess, again, now that's a tricky situation. - Yeah, go ahead. - So yeah, in one sense, I grew up, my mom told me about Jesus before we got to date and read me Bible stories. We grew up going to different churches, not practicing New Testament Christianity, but going to different churches. At a certain point when I was in high school, my brother and I lived down the street from a church and we would walk there in the 10 services reading our Bible, just trying to figure things out, you know, I went to all different kinds of churches. Baptist Catholic Presbyterian, Episcopalian, there was never any like one church that I went to or we weren't any one kind of, you know, Christian under the umbrella of Christendom or anything like that. But when I went to college, I was working at Taco Bell. I met Brittany there. I had worked there in high school, started working up there. Met Brittany there with Dayton. She's not in the church. I'm not in the church. I'm just in school. I'm attending a different church somewhere else. And she has a friend who is a member of the church and invites me and I start studying with the preacher there. And I got baptized. I was 19. That was June of 2009 and Brittany got baptized in July and then we got married that October. So that was all at 19, 20 years old or somewhere in there. Yeah, by the time we got married in October, we were both 20, but we were baptized at 19. So I went to college. I was doing my work and stuff, but I was interested in spiritual things, reading the Bible, reading books by different spiritual authors and just trying to figure out what's what as far as Christianity and what was true and all of that. Like I said, I encountered biblical Christianity and became a Christian, was baptized and all of that. Influence Brittany to do the same and she decided to and it went from there. So yeah, I was, I was 20. I was in Rome by that time for sure. Yeah, you know, based on what you were studying in the school and sort of the direction you were intending to take, most people that, and it just is just based on, you know, my limited observation. Most people that have got that linear chain of thought are the way that they organize their thoughts. Almost they disregard Christian number. They disregard the Bible altogether as a, you know, source of document that's credible. What clicked for you that made you go from just sort of attending varying churches to sort of sit in the island, pit in the island a few things that made you say, hey, this makes sense. Well, I mean, I didn't always have this strong like religious background, but I also wasn't raised in a house of secularism. Like we prayed, my mom taught me about God and stuff. So there never was a time when I doubted those things. I wouldn't always live in that way when I was growing up in Hollywood. And I didn't really know how to read the Bible and how to parse out what the Bible was saying, but I just knew just intuitively evidence around me. Nobody gave me an apologetics course or anything, but I just knew God existed. There's more to life. One day I'm gonna die. I was surrounded by a lot of that in Hollywood and like, what's next? What happens after this life? And I was always interested in those kinds of things and I knew Christianity had the answers to those. So once I, it wasn't a matter of, was I interested in those things. It was just a matter of finding out what was true and I just grew up going to a lot of places and hearing a lot of different things. And my criminal justice background probably helped me to be more evidence driven and more reasoning in the sense of, all right, I believe in God, I believe the Bible says word, but like how do we get to truth and how do we know what's true versus everybody's opinion? And so once I started studying the Bible, trying to do it as objectively as I can and we all have our biases and presuppositions, but once I started studying the Bible, I was able to try to the best of my ability to say, forget my upbringing, what people in my family believe and think, my dad's side, people are very religious and they've got different views, but I just start trying to read the Bible and see, okay, what does it say and follow that? - Yeah, you know, my dad, when he was telling us a little bit about his story, my mom and him, they were raised in the Anglican faith in Guyana, they were both set up to get married there and he went through confirmation classes and everything. And he went to attend meeting, that was the first time he said that he's heard about being insane and somebody come to die for your sins and the kind of relationship you've got with him. And at that time, he was trying to influence my mom because my mom influenced him to be a part of the Anglican faith and they got baptized at different points in their life in the same year as well as just a few months apart. And I was asking about that, you know, what was it like for him trying to get my mom on board? And he said, my mom was more dismissive than not at first. She's like, I'm already in the church, I don't want to come do all this, never look at anything else. Now, you said you got baptized prior to Brittany, but of course, just within a span of a few weeks or a month or so. What was that transition like? How'd you bring that up to her or even talked about it? - Well, I mean, she was going with me. We both were going at the same time, but I was probably a little more further along spiritually, but she was hearing the same sermons and observing the same things and there wasn't any pressure on my part, but we were still dating at the time and I just was like, I'm intending to get real serious about this. I hope it doesn't do anything to our relationship, but this is where my mind's kind of heading. And of course, she wasn't against that. She wasn't gonna stop me, but she just wanted to come around to it on her own. So she kept reading and studying and working through some things and decided that she wanted to do the same thing. So it wasn't even necessarily like a, I taught her. I was first, we were still dating. I'm going to service as she's going Sunday, morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, listening to the same sermons, being convicted. No one, I need to get out of sand, I'm playing around, but just the influence and being around all of that, it just expedited it for her, I think. - Now, when you became a Christian, you went from being a 19, 20 year old Christian to then you became a minister, right? - No, that's not what happened. - No, man. - So now people sometimes make the assumption, man. And I get, I got baptized when I was 11, but I had shared on a previous episode that they'd always correspond with the life that I lived when I was a teenager, 'cause I got disconnected once I got introduced and exposed to different things in the world. People make the assumption that you get baptized, you get washed, you become a new person, and then you stay a different person, but it's a growing process. Now, you and Brittany eventually got married and you were able to raise a family of your own and expand your family rather, 'cause you became a family when y'all got married. What was Christianity like as a young family, as a young couple now being introduced at this new cycle of life, like new direction, plus new direction, maritaly? What was that like for y'all when y'all got married? - It was challenging in a lot of ways, of course, we were young, we didn't have this spiritual upbringing, we were trying to learn each other and also try to learn each other. learn the Bible and spiritual things at the same time. We were working at Taco Bell, which is shift work. We both were managers. She was an assistant manager. I was running stores as a GM and I was still in college. You know, I have family members saying, "Hey, you need to wait till you get done with school to get married." I was a junior in college and got married. So a lot of people at my college obviously aren't married already. Like, this isn't the 50s. You know, I'm 20 years old. I'm married. So, but working different shifts, not seeing each other is often and just money not being in this great abundance in those early days and just a different lifestyle. Like, we became Christians because we came out of sin, but just because you're through with sin doesn't mean sins through with you. And so, there was still obviously temptation still is and hardships and struggles and us both being there trying to develop different friendships and circles. Britney's family was an Is in Daytona, which is great and we've always had a great relationship with them. But the church also became our family. And so trying to get to know these folks and, you know, that was just a different adjustment to make the congregation where we were. There wasn't this abundance of young people, but trying to realize I've got more in common now with these people than anybody in the world. And so my last year of college or so, a lot of my learning was done at a distance. I was running the store as a GM. I was married and I had a lot of my coursework done. So I could just do a lot of stuff at a distance and I was working, you know, I got cool with the preacher there. Rico and we can talk about that. But he became my friend. We were hanging with him and his wife like my, my friend's circle and stuff just kind of changed. And I was in a different place than a lot of people I was in college with. So yeah, it was just an adjustment for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Now, when when you all became parents, that's through a whole new different dynamic into the setup you've already been trying to connect with. When you became a dad, was there a click for you in your mind? Or did it gradually come with time that, man, this is a whole different ballgame? I guess for me, it was more gradual over time. Like, over time, it just clicked that my life's different and it's changing. Somebody's just depending on me. Brittany stopped working at that time, went home with Nadia at the time. And so yeah, it was a gradual change that it's not just Brittany, but there's another person depending on me. And I've got to be an example, but a provider for her. And so that was definitely definitely a change, but in a positive way, in a good way. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Paul and Hebrews writer talks about having discernment as a Christian and sometimes at least I'm convinced that discernment comes not only through spiritual understanding, but through a cultural conditioning. Some people from varying backgrounds are able to discern things a bit differently. When you became a dad and now your, your husband, your dad, you're a Christian, what was that like for you? Haven't you balanced so many things where there are new things that you discovered along the way that helped your discernment as a person altogether? Yeah. I'm still struggling with that, but and I don't know that I'm doing it right now. Yes, because you grow up as an individual, like I have brothers, of course, but you grow up as an individual and you're thinking about what you want to do and how you want to spend your time. But when Nadia is a baby, helping Brittany with her, being there for her, she's home all day. She wants to be relieved. Then we have Andre in 2015. And so that just adds to it. But yes, the balancing that just knowing you can't do everything and saying no to certain things, putting your family first, there's just a lot of trial and error with that before the ministry and after. Like when I was a GM, people would call me, I'd have to run and get this from my store and I'm just one of those people that like I just want to get it done. I want to work hard. I want to be answered, but I want to help people and I would jump, jump, jump. But then I got to realize those people don't come before my family and I've got to turn some of that down. And that hasn't changed in the ministry. Everybody that wants some of your time thinks that their issue with you or what they want help with is the most pressing and important thing. Everybody thinks that that's why they're coming to you. But it's your responsibility to show them and remind yourself that that's not true for everybody. And so just learning that and that you can't do everything. I've been in school like my whole life. So I've been balanced in that, you know, so it's just yeah, that stuff has been challenging. I think you got to get it to a manageable level. I think it's a false idea to believe one day everything's going to calm down and you're just going to be cool and doing nothing. I think we tell ourselves that in busy times, but the reality is there will always be something. The balancing act is finding out what you want that something or there's some things to be. But there is this false idea that I'm running 100 miles an hour, but I promise after this degree or after this child or after this job thing, it's just going to smooth out. I'm going to have free Saturdays and all like life just typically doesn't work that way. Yeah. Yeah. At what point in time did you have that transition? You were still a general manager at Taco Bell when you had Nadia. Yeah. So when did you go from you said you and Rico have been good friends and y'all's family got together a little closer through all that as well? Did you ever get a transitional point that you wanted to become a minister at the dot com after further learning on a deeper level, whether through school or something like that? How did that come about? So I was baptized in 2009. I was still in school, still wanting to do law school, but at a certain point I figured I don't want to do that anymore. You know, I want to do something else. I don't know what that something else is, but I want to do something else. Rico Brown baptized me. He also baptized Britain. And if he didn't do the baptism, he was the preacher there when we both got baptized. We became good friends with him and his wife Tisha, and we just hung with him all the time like we became close. And you know, he was the preacher there, but very quickly I got some opportunities to do some preaching not because I want to be a preacher, but because in a really immersive way, I was learning I was learning the Bible, smaller congregation, I had opportunities a lot quicker to do things. And it was a growing experience. And before long, I was just doing some spot preaching sometimes on Sunday nights, a congregation of 50, 60 maybe, MLK was the congregation, Martin Luther King Church of Christ and Daytona. And I would get to do some spot preaching and I started to enjoy it and I figured whatever else I do, I would like to preach on the side and help a small congregation. At that point, I didn't want to move. I didn't want to go to law school. I didn't know what I was going to do, but I figured whatever I did, preaching might be in the mix. And so while I was a manager at Taco Bell, I decided, you know, preaching is kind of like teaching and I enjoy teaching. Maybe I want to be a school teacher or a professor. So I went to grad school for reading education. And while I was doing that, we moved to a different congregation, Rico as well. And Bruce Dardy was the preacher there I've ever rode. I was getting my masters in reading education and Bruce in addition to Rico was also encouraging me when I would get some opportunities. Man, you might really want to think about preaching and all of this. And by this time, I'm like 22, 23 or something like that. And I'm starting to think about it some more. So I finished the master's degree and right around that time, I just thought, maybe I want to go to preaching school. And so then Bruce and Rico both, but people from the congregation encouraged me to go to Lakeland. I went to the Florida School of Preaching, but the answer is Rico's example, Bruce's encouraged me and Bruce was the first person like really giving me books and stuff like that. And there was another guy in Daytona that I met. His name was Roger Washington, not known by anybody, but his mom was a shut-in member that Rico and I used to go see. And I would do divos in his house. And he was always giving me like, you know, a ministry game, you know, like, hey, look for needs with people, help people out, do this kind of thing. And just he preached in small churches around Florida and taught me so much about the service part of ministry. So those influences, most of those guys aren't known by a bunch of people, but those influences are what shaped me and really just made me fall in love with ministry. Like the people I was hanging around and looked up to with preachers. And I thought these guys are doing was pretty cool. And so I had to eventually do a side-up. I don't want to be a professor or a teacher. And I don't want to do law school. Maybe I want to preach. And that's what happened. 2014. I think I went f-sobs. Florida School of Preaching. I'm saying f-sobs like everybody knows that. Yeah, like everybody knows the f-sobs. Yeah, 2014. I went to the Florida School of Preaching. Wow. Man, so that's a bit of a transition, but it came like you said, gradually over the course of different people in different situations. So a lot of it, most of a circumstantial, but of course it had a lot of influences from people around you. You know, when I had decided that I want to take an investigation of the school and come and check it out and see what things are like, I initially was a bit turned off by a lot of things. And I was just because of cultural conditioning the way that I was raised in South America versus stepping into a whole different world. But Brian Kenya was one of those people that I got to meet earlier on. And he helped me see that you can be culturally conditioned one way, but also be able to, you know, maneuver in other ways. And that helped me feel a bit more comfortable and authentic in my own skin. Now, you're married, you got kids, you're decided to come to the school of Preaching. Mirment out of been different. I don't know what I stepped into it. It was definitely a different set up for me, though that though I've been through some different training, I went to a different school and gathered to study architecture outside of high school. So I've had some a formal training in my home country, but then stepping into this was a bit different. Did Britain, you ever have a conversation that I want to be a preacher? I don't want to do education this way anymore. I don't want to do that anymore. Was that a conversational thing that took a little bit of teeter in or was it like full thrust commitment? Like, yeah, let's do this. Let's get on board then you pursued. Yeah, it's a lot of teeter in because I applied to the school more than once. So like I applied and I'm like, I'm going to go and then I think she got pregnant with Nadia and I was like, ah, maybe it's not the time. And you know, you're raising support for the school of preaching. You can't work because of the amount of the load with schools. So you're basically living off of the financial support of congregations and members and individuals. And so we had Nadia, I didn't. And then the second time I applied, it was like something came up. Oh, my brother passed away in 2019. I believe it was. No, I went in 2019. It was before that 2013. So I didn't go then. And then the third time I applied, she got pregnant with Andre, but by this time we're like, you know what, we're just going to go. So we went. So she's always been behind everything I want to do. And so supportive. It was just a matter of, do I really want to do this? And really for me, the big thing with the school leaving was I had never been in a situation where I wasn't working and I'm going to go and drop everything and go be supported by individuals, which of course people were gracious and God's people always show up. And they did support me. But that was kind of a thing. And just also, okay, Brittany, when you met me, you aren't meeting a preacher. You didn't marry a preacher. Do you really want to do this, but she was supportive and it it worked out. But yes, that was a transition. And even getting to the school and doing 10 classes full time all day like I'm in school But it's a job from 8 to 5. I'm studying and then when I come home I'm studying more now by this time I'm 20 I went to the school at 24. I was done by the time I was 26. I already had a master's degree But the stoop the the level of regret the school of preaching was harder than any school and I had done before undergrad graduate school the amount and the time But it was something I enjoyed more than anything else I learned before so yeah, it was an adjustment But it was enjoyable for me for sure. Yeah, yeah, so you got a little bit of exposure beforehand When you were doing some like you said spot preaching when you're yeah with with Rico But then maybe a little bit with with Bruce and others now when I was in school You had to learn a whole new format for the way you present in addition to just the illogical Training did that pose and he sort of pose any sort of inconveniences for you along the way haven't to change In what way and like what ways are it's like presentation? Did you ever had to learn how to adopt to a different style as opposed to something that you might have already been used to or was it just an Integration that made better what you already had a foundation of I Think there was some changes, but nothing forced on me. I just kind of Did my own thing I guess in that regard I used to handwrite my sermons all the time like I never typed sermons till I got to school And then I started doing that and so over time I developed the way I like to present and all of that But other than that, there was no kind of like there was no pressure change or no exterior Forces that wanted me to change what I was doing because I just did it the way that was comfortable to me But what happened at the school was I developed some things that I didn't know about like I didn't know about Expository preaching like preaching verse by verse two passages I would just kind of get a topic before and the spot preaching and go here and there and the more I read through the Bible and the more knowledge I was gaining I guess my will got deeper from which I could draw and present lessons, but the stylistic stuff I've tried to I mean I learned from a lot of people from watching people listening to people reading stuff But I've tried to always be original with that and I don't think the school Wanted to nor did I allow it to like download a style on me and maybe Coming from a different place. It was more of that for you But for me there was never any kind of like all right You've got to do it this way and but I'm sure I am sure that like we get Conditioned by what we see and I'm sure I've picked up some things from people I heard and people I was around and after preaching almost eight years now Some of that I've shredded and some of that I've picked up and developed and made my own, but that's what I remember at least Yeah, yeah, man So now you got a family that's growing you've decided to go to school and now with the intention that when you get out of school You're gonna go ahead and get into the ministry full-time Did you think that once you got out of the school of preaching you were gonna go full thrust into full-time ministry? Or did you still have in the back of your head? I might have to balance a little bit and preach them to side because earlier on you Had mentioned that yeah, you know I'd like to assist smaller churches. Yeah, was that still a thing at the back of your head? Or did you just sort of fall in love with it more or did it just happen because you know Maybe you were given an opportunity It was still a thing you still a thing now it always is a thing for me I guess I just think that way that I love preaching But I wouldn't be against doing other things in addition in the future I just throughout my LSAT books like three weeks ago because when I was in Florida when I was preaching I thought I might go to law school at night and get a JD and practice law at some point and who knows I might do something like that in the future So that that was a thing is still is for me my only difference was when I got out of preaching school I knew I went to preach full-time and I love local work. I knew I wanted to I didn't know where that was going to be I didn't have any hopes in my mind initially that I would get to stand Florida and be right there where the school was a South Florida avenue But yeah, I intended to go to school and I was being supported by people with the mindset of I'm going to do this and do full-time ministry But I didn't have then nor do I have now the philosophy that that's all I was going to do or all I wanted to do So yeah, whatever that looks like for me going forward I don't know but I never had the mindset that it was just going to be that and I still don't have that mindset now really Yeah, yeah, were there any sort of relationships that helped you along the way your journey seems to be one of Heratial improvement and circumstantial differences like you're changing with based on things around you based on your situations based on exposures to new things and I suppose that's a lot of people in a lot of ways But are there names or figures that stick out you in the back of your mind that you knew were so influential in the direction To you've taken now or still bear weight in your thought to somebody that you can Recant in your mind like I'm so grateful I met this person are there people like that in your life relationships You've developed that helps you become the kind of person you are today. Well, yeah, for sure I think it goes back before even preaching though it's a long list But I give you some definitely my mom for sure my brothers growing up just that environment And I think when a person becomes a Christian you don't have to ditch all of that stuff I think God refines it and uses it But he uses everything about you as a person in my city where I grew up I they would all of that stuff shaped me and so my mindset my philosophy people I grew up with friends I had growing up for sure, but my brothers and my mom then I'm next a Brittany above anybody else who's been an influence on me and just Rather die really anything I want to do. She's like all right We can do that for sure never been a hang up or anything like that as far as on the more formal side I wouldn't be preaching if it wasn't for Rico Brown his wife Tisha Bruce influenced me Bruce taught me to read widely So Rico taught me hands-on ministry like let's go visit people let's get in their lives Here's what it looks like to do local work And I still think he does that better than anybody I've ever seen like just the people side of ministry But Bruce taught me scholarship like read widely learn the languages go to school if you can and like keep learning and growing Not that Rico wasn't educated, but Bruce was more formally educated and preaching and just really pushed me to use my Academic skills that I had Secularly and he's like transition that to preaching and he made me fall in love with reading books and scholarship and all that And then people like the guy Roger Washington that I knew from Daytona who's still an influence on me to this day taught me about Really looking for needs and thinking about the people that are forgotten the shut-ins the Impoverished and just having conversations with me talking to me about ministry like that and like those are the people that taught me things in the flesh for sure And from there I've met other preachers and have friends Brian for sure preached at South Florida Avenue where he directs to school and is an elder now But we've done mission work together and all of that so Brian's been an influence on me other preachers I've met and stuff like that but Brian for sure and then I would say people like force force anti-missarist I don't know if you had him on yet or going to yeah We've done a bunch of stuff together and his friendship is meant a ton to me and teaching me different things about Ministry and I've just had a host of friends. I could name people like preachers non preachers relationships that have helped me Developing grill. I think about like Rick and Stephanie Kenyan people like that. So yeah I've been blessed in that regard that I've just been one of these people that's been surrounded by people that have supported me help me Influenced me the right conversation at the right time the right book at the right time learning the right lesson or life Prince what the right time and it's kind of all fused together from my upbringing till now and I hadn't had anything to do with that That just came yeah, yeah, yeah There's definitely people in my life like that as well that I've been able to look up to and look into it as they've looked into me And you know when I was younger, it was more of a for me at least it was more of a people see in you which you haven't discovered in yourself yet or You know, I was raised in a preacher's home. So in my upbringing there there was a little bit more of a I won't say a resentment but a bit of a fight against what other people had this you know had seen in you and I think of an orange when you squeeze an orange you expect to get orange juice right and that's what sort of happened with me There's a lot of circumstances that constantly squeezed and squeezed and then I I eventually fell in love with whatever came out of me And that's what I wanted to pursue what I think of The kind of people that shape your life and I was talking to Sydney about this a little bit Sometimes when you get into the spiritual environment and you get to deepen your relationship with Jesus There is this on said, but almost understood sort of notion that You've almost got to only surround yourself with people that are spiritually driven or people that are believers in a certain way But I've come to realize in my life that there has been I would say more but a great deal of Helping me become the kind of person that I am as a result of befriending people that are not believers or people that have not committed themselves to Jesus Would you say that there is value and still insuring relationships in the world with folks that might not be believers There's some value there outside it just staying confined in a certain place with certain people Yeah, I think that's definitely true for a lot of reasons like Bible reasons is of course that's what Jesus did That's what Paul did at the end of the book of Acts Paul's cool with a lot of people on the island of Malta and stuff that aren't Christians Jesus spent time with a lot of people But I think even more than that if every human being is made in the image of God we shouldn't be surprised I think sometimes Christians are surprised like somebody will do a good thing and a Christian will say so and so do this And he's not even a Christian as if like you don't get the superpowers to be decent until you become a Christian like Christianity will change you Save your soul. It'll make you a disciple of Jesus and I want that for everybody But just downloaded on people's existence from the moment they come into existence is they're an image bearer of God Sometimes theologians call this like common grace. There is just this natural idea that The Christian mechanic isn't necessarily the best mechanic like this got maybe more gifted with cars or with art or with coffee Or with architecture or with business and I want to learn from all sorts of people and be blessed by their lives And so yeah, we do weaken our efforts when we don't just get to know people and we just cut off everybody in favor of, hey, I just want to focus and be around these people only. That's the monastery approach and it can create holier than that. That's how Pharisees are born. Like when you just spend time around Christians only, the only thing to come from that eventually is we got to find stuff to fight about. You know, like you eventually become hardened on who's doing this better versus living your life and engaging with other people that have blessed your life. And so yeah, going all the way back to where I was raised and grew up, like I've got homeboys and stuff to this day that I still talk to that shaped me and that are still cool. And some of them have become Christians and some of them haven't. But they still have influenced me and I've got stories and lessons I've learned from them and they're cool people and all of that. So that's still true and that's true now. Like my barber, different people, I just talk to them and like I'm not surprised that they're good people or that they have good attributes or even things better than me and other areas that I can learn from them. Like I'm not always in the teaching posture. I still can learn from them of course. - Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I wasn't planning on asking you this but I feel like I almost kinda ask you it. - You're a big reader, man. You like to do a lot of reading. I was just looking at your library back there. Are there certain books you're reading right now that's playing a role in the kind of person you are right now or hoping to go? - Yeah, that's always true. But I would go back to stuff I've read before now. And so like they are people that are living that have influenced me and they're people that are dead that have influenced me and people I've never even met. So like I think about like martial people. I've never met him but his preaching has influenced me. But Johnny Ramsey, after his preaching, read books from him, his stuff has influenced me but then there are people outside of the churches of Christ that I wouldn't agree with on everything but Tim Keller, his books have influenced me a great deal. - Yeah, I've got some stuff from Tim Keller, yeah. - See as Lewis has influenced me a great deal. But right now I'm reading some stuff that is pretty helpful. I'm reading a book on hermeneutics by Kevin Van Hute, a user on hermeneutics, what he calls the mere Christian hermeneutic is a fairly recent book. And then I'm reading some stuff on the Psalms just because of my dissertation. But there's a book by a man named Trevor Lawrence on the imprecatory Psalms, which is very helpful. And Bruce Walkie wrote a massive book that I'm working through right now on understanding and reading the Psalms properly. So that's been helpful. And then I read fiction stuff. And so yeah, that's been pretty good. I just always keep stuff going. So yeah. - I never could get into reading fictional stuff. I'm more visual than not. So when I read it's got to be something that adds to me outside of just the entertainment. And if I read things that are just, well, you can get things from entertaining books as well. There's a lot of underlying stories. A lot of underlying values. But I watch a lot of shows and I watch a lot of cartoons. - Yeah, I don't watch this much. - Yes, they'll watch some, but I don't watch this much TV. - Yeah. There's varying avenues to ministry men. And for me, I enjoy preaching. I enjoy teaching. I enjoy teaching the more, more than preaching. I love getting into Bible studies. And I love just kind of exposing what the text has to offer. But the kind of condition that I had for my upbringing was being a people person. I love talking to people. I love creating relationships. I like hearing people's story. And that's partly one of the reasons for this platform. Hearing people's story with Jesus and having others get to hear it as well. How have you learned in some ways or maybe you're still sort of trying to figure that out, balancing all the avenues of ministry? I mean, if I could go into a full time, people person approach, if I could travel and talk to people, walk around and tell them about Jesus outside of the pulpit, I would do it man. I would do it in a heartbeat. But you know, for other reasons, I'm there in a pulpit. And that's primarily what I'm doing right now. Is there an avenue you see yourself in the future branching out more of outside of being in the pulpit or have you just come to love that a little bit? Or was that like for you, just balancing all the areas in ministry? - Some of those areas I'm stronger in than others. I'm sure I like preaching and teaching, but I love personal work the most sitting down and just studying the Bible with people. If I could do that the rest of my life, I wouldn't have to preach another sermon, but I also like studying and presenting sermon. So there's different aspects of it. I'm more of an introvert person. So the whole people person, lectureship, conference stuff is draining for me, but there's some benefits to that. But yeah, I like the local work a lot. I just love local ministry preaching to people that I know we can. We go a lot more than just guest preaching, getting up my favorite sermons and going to this place or whatever and just delivering these sermons to random people. I like to know the people's stories that I'm preaching to and invest in their lives. And I think it makes your preaching hit some notes that you just can't when you don't know the people that you're talking to as well. You just can't. For me, I think that's just what it's always gonna be. I would love at some point to do some adjuncting at a certain point when I finished my schooling. I'm almost done with my school and I'm right, about to be right in my dissertation, but other than that, I would love to do something on the adjunct level at a university and maybe more so at a secular university than a Christian one and like teach Hebrew or ancient Near Eastern studies or something in their Old Testament department and meet some people that are right around the age I was when I heard about Jesus and just, I mean, I can't be preaching in my class or anything, but I would like to just drop some hints about the Bible, say some things about the Old Testament that people think they know about Moses or whoever and just turn some thinking. So I would love to do that in addition to preaching, but I would always want that to be like 80, 20 more preaching than that, but for sure, I would love to do that in the future and maybe God will see fit that will. - I've sort of observed this for myself, but a lot of people that enjoy reading, sometimes enjoy writing as well enough, I've been able to get a lot of your written works, but do you do a lot of writing outside of just your ministerial work? I mean, you're in school right now, of course, as some of that might be put in the back burner, but I've seen some preachers that use his writing as somewhat of their winding down. They get to enjoy some time alone with doing some writing. Is that, would you say that describes you a little bit as well, or is writing a chore? - It's both, I like writing. I haven't been able to do as much of it recently, but I've got this company, PGK, which stands for Projects to Glorify the King with the friend of mine, D. Paramore and Alan Grimes. He's the artist, she and I are the authors and she's also the editor and the social media person and the everything on everything, D's awesome. But we've written a bunch of children's books. We write a book every year. We've been doing it since 2021 and I'm working on some stuff right now. I'm supposed to be, if she hears this, she's gonna say, "Well, where's the manuscript, Param?" But yeah, so I'm writing on, we're working on a prayer book and also some other things and we have a subset for PGK and I write for that. So yeah, I enjoy that. And of course, I write for the church bulletin and stuff here, but I do enjoy writing. But schooling and academic papers and coursework has made my writing more academic as of late. Forrest and I were blogging since we were in school and writing, we had our own publication, like paper print publication before the blog in 2014 or '15 and then that turned into the blog and that's kind of no more is still up but that's kind of no more. We're doing different things now. Like I'm focused primarily on PGK stuff, but yeah, I enjoy writing. I write for the spiritual source. So yeah, that's always good. - Yeah, yeah. What do you've got up coming for yourself right now? I mean, you've got a lot of educational things you said you're wrapping up, but you're also ministering, cumbling trays and you're also working on written material for the kingdom as well. What do you have coming up maybe near in the future that we can look forward to and see the kind of areas we can get to know a little bit more about you from or just know more about the kingdom as a result of it? - Really just the local church, you know, cumbling trays is where I do the preaching week to week and with Neopolert Nails, the preacher here. Yeah, and I co-preach together, but yeah, cumbling trays, the local churches where my heart really isn't where my efforts go. Outside of that is just the writing for PGK. I just want to finish school, man, like getting on with school, man, I tell people, friend of mine said, you know, you've been in school 20 years and you can't even do brain surgery, so that's right. You know, I'm kind of ready to be dumb, oh, so. But other than that, it'll be PGK stuff and the local church here and whatever else I do will be in surplus of that. But I do write some old estimate like study guides and books and we got some stuff we're working on, not just children's material, but like adult Bible class material and some things I'm working on as far as world view type stuff that I want to write on. So yeah, that's coming, but I just got finished my dissertation in the next 12 to 18 months and other than that, it's just really local work. I mean, people feel differently about what I'm about to say, Johnny, but for me, just the way I've been wired and what I've been able to do, local work is the thing. Like for me, local work is not a step to the thing. Like people are like, well, you're getting PhD was next. For me, it's just like, I could do this the rest of my life and when I'm done, I'm done. But I don't want to like do something ill. I will do other stuff in addition that we talked about, but preaching every week, visiting people, marrying and varying counseling and studying. Like that's it for me, man. Like I don't have my eye on some deep spiritual panacea beyond like, okay, once I get local work done, I check that box, I'm going to go be a professor and I have every tower or whatever. And I got friends like that and that's fine. I don't mind that everybody's got to do something different. So you talk about balance in the different aspects of ministry. Some people are more academic in mind and writing sermons every week is literally killing them. Like they don't like doing it. For me, I love the grime. When I step down Sunday night, I'm already thinking about my next sermon and like, all right, I'm going to get into this passage and teaching and who am I meeting with this week. So for me, local work is the thing. It's not my whole life, God's my whole life. I don't have to preach to live. I just got to serve Jesus and trust in Him. So I think there's a difference there. I don't feel like if I don't preach, I'll die, but as far as vocationally, preaching is the thing for me. That's it. - Yeah, yeah, man, that's pretty cool. I enjoyed this when I was in school and of course, you were a lecturer in there and I enjoyed when you would cut class for like 20, 30 minutes and say, all right, I'm going to give you awesome spiritual nuggets to take away, just pay attention to some of this stuff, we'll get back to some material. And I've asked everybody this thus far and this is sort of the root of why the platform exists. John chapter 10 verse 27. Jesus says that, you know, His sheep know His voice and they follow Him and He knows them. And then you've got Romans 12. for three pulses that we've all been given different measures of faith or grace. What I think of journeying with Jesus, I think of it as a long-term lifestyle that gradually, you know, ways itself up and down in a scale. Sometimes your fate is stronger. There are days you might be weakened by circumstances, but ultimately in that weakness, God makes you strong. If there's somebody out there that might find some relatability or encouragement with your story, what would you say to a few people that are desiring to seek Jesus, desiring to deepen their relationship with him? They run a journey with him and they want that nugget, that encouragement, something that you can say that maybe they can latch on to. So here's a few things I would say. First, I would say realize your deep need and that you're just like everybody else and that, like you can shortcut this in turn to Jesus now or you can try everything else like Solomon did in Ecclesiastes and still in right back up at the feet of God, but just realize your deep need and that nothing is going to satisfy you like God can in a relationship with Jesus. There's no career, there's no relationship, there's no amount of money, no amount of stamps in your passport, no amount of social media likes. And the reason why is not because those things are bad is just because they weren't designed to do that. They are designed for something, momentary fulfillment, companionship along the journey, but full satisfaction, you over-invest in them and you require them to do something they just simply can't do. Like a little meada can't carry your sofa across the country. What meant to do that? And so just realize your deep need and that there is one person to satisfy that, right? Augustine said in his confessions on the very first page, "O Lord, you've made us for yourself and are hard to restless until they rest in you." And I know that quote has been over-read and over-played, but it's still true. You're not going to find satisfaction apart from God because He's your manufacturer and you're not going to work like you're supposed to until you're in sync and in line with your manufacturer. So the person that made you that loves you, that wants the best for you, you've got to get on board with that. So you've got to know your deep need. Secondly, I would just say you've got to give the Bible a chance and read the Bible. It's one thing to read about the Bible, to listen to people talk about the Bible, but it's a different thing entirely to open up the Bible and read for yourself. There's all kind of ways to get into that, but there's no shortcut around doing that. Realize your deep need, read the Bible. Thirdly, I would just say this, you need community, you need the church, you need people, but you've got to know what to expect. First thing is realize your deep need, but realize you're coming among people that have a deep need. So if you go into a community setting and people fail you and disappoint you in their hypocrisy and slander and backbiting and that runs you all, you, you probably shouldn't go because that's going to happen. I wish I could tell you wouldn't that's going to happen. But at the very same time, what's going to happen is love, compassion, sharing, restoration, camaraderie, long suffering, people that have come alongside you and bear your burden, relationships involved both. So realize you need community, but don't allow the people following Jesus to mix up your mind about what you think about Jesus because those two things are different and people can disappoint you and they will. Don't build your house on anybody except him, but realize you need people. It's going to take people to do it. So once you realize your deep need and read the Bible, like find the people of God that are following his words of the best their ability, go in expecting imperfections among people because you have them yourself. You've already done step one and realize your deep need and these people are imperfectly trying to do the same thing. So don't be overly critical. And the last thing is a two, two edge of sword. Remember to give yourself grace and remember you don't have all day and both of those things are hard to balance like you got to give yourself grace and be realistic about change takes a long time God works on people and that takes a long time, but you also don't have all day like if the Bible's right and I believe it is Jesus could come at any moment or we could meet our earthly demise at any moment and that's not a scare tactic. That's just reality. So give yourself grace and realize that change takes time, but as you're changing also realize you really don't have all day. Don't wait till the new year to start reading the Bible start now. Don't wait till like the first of the month. I would really like to start going to church, but I need to wait till the first of the month for a clean slate. The 15th is as good as the first just go now. You know, like don't don't play around. Don't finish this last pack of beer cigarettes before you just you could stop right in the middle. God will take you just like that. And so yeah, give yourself grace, but remember you you don't have all day. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, man. Is there anything else that you might want to say out there before we sort of wrap things up? No, man, I just appreciate you. Thanks for doing this. I know we went floater together. And I just have seen your growth and matured in development. And people are going to be blessed by listening to what you're doing. And I appreciate your friendship and your ministry and what you're doing. And that's pretty much it. I would just say anything in my life or in your life or anybody's life that's been worth anything. It's been because God's been glorious and gracious. And I think if we look at our lives that way, we'll be more grateful. Most of the good things that have come haven't come because we're smarter. We work so hard. We did all this stuff. God's surround us with people that we didn't know we needed resources. We didn't expect to receive in blessings that we don't deserve. And that's been the blessing. And this has been that for me and your friendship. So I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Hi, I'm thank you, man. This was really encouraging. As usually it is talking to you. I hope that somebody else finds some upliftment in it and some encouragement and some related ability. And maybe through it, they can come to deepen their relationship with Jesus. Thank you all again for joining us on this episode of Journey with Jesus. I look forward to you listening to this and I look forward to you listening to the other episodes to come. Talk to you next time. Bye.