Be BOLD in Branding or Be IGNORED!! | Bourbon of Proof vs. Gary Sarner

Your intake's job is not to find out how the f*** they found you. Intakes job is to sign the case up. I mean, that's the number one job. Because how do you make decisions, right? If they call from the phone number that came from Google, intake just goes Google. That's shitty intake. That's a whole different conversation. Welcome to this episode of Burmina Proof, where we interview those both successful and law and life. And today we're honored to be here. Live from Burmina Branch in New York City. Y'all, let's give it up for Gary Sarner. Let's give it up for King of Renew. And we're also doing like a little collab with Law Rank and Maria Monra, your show. Tip this. You could do your introduction. I'm sorry. You could do your intro. I don't know that I can do it. Do you do an intro? I do an intro, yeah. What's your intro? I've been done in a while. She first got, where's Jane Gore? What was the name of it? Law, power, everything. It's no, it's Tip the Skills. Tip the Skills, yeah. I've been on. Welcome to the Tip the Skills podcast where we discuss running and growing your law firm. I'm your host, Maria Monraui, president and co-founder of Blurring. There we go. And we have the co-founder and president of Fiori Legal, Maro Fiori Legal. Thank you very much. A lot of people forget that we're actually practicing lawyers. So refer us to your cases. We do a really good job. We make sure you're taking care of and you're clients always win. Yeah, you know, Bob, actually, I was thinking that the other day I was like, you know what? I'm going to mention on here that I actually am a practicing lawyer with a big law firm. And I actually know what I'm doing. Because people just want to say, man, Maro's that seat. He's a f*cking drunk. But I am a drunk. You could do both things very well. I'm actually a lawyer. Before we start here, we do a poor. We get you some whiskey first. I know you've had a few pours already. I could see you back here, imbibing. My favorite stuff is here. Yeah, and we see it. We saw that on your notes. We've had what? Hundreds of people on this show. No one has ever said they'd like Widow Jane. You're the first one. So it's unique. Yeah. They have Mike Rose gave me a bottle of Widow Jane called the Five Burrows. Because they let the five different burrows put a mash build together with Widow Jane. I've never had it before. I don't even know if I even see it up there, but he gave it to me. So I'm going to drink that later without Gary Sarner by myself in the closet. Well, where's Bourbon Will? Because we're going to give Gary Sarner a pour to start the show. No Bourbon Will. All right, how's it going? It's right there. Holy shit. All right. So I know you like Widow Jane, but my rule is always if you've had it before, you can't drink it with me or drink it. It's not the new. So we're going to do something. Both of these are loud, vibrant, like your shirts. Whiskey's for you. We are doing Little Book, the Infinite. So this was released the first edition last year. They just released the new one or are going to release it next month. Second edition. This is done by the Jim Beam DeCyllory. So Little Book, we're going to go way back. They do a regular Little Book and it's a different chapter every year. It highlights the art of blending. And Little Book is the nickname of the current master of stiller. His grandfather called him Little Book because his dad was Booker. So it's Little Book. He decided he wanted to start the Little Book Infinite Series last year. It kind of shocked everybody with it. What he is doing is he is taking his grandfather's juice, his dad's juice and some of his juice and blending it all into one bottle. So three legends of distilling. And every year he's going to add on another juice to that same blend to add to essentially continue the Infinite to barrel for you. Sounds like you can talk into the Infinity Poor. Sounds like it's like a Takaloo to do some cross reference. Poor is there. So I'm going to stamp y'all. I'll get the little attorney share one. Let's do that. Gary, you're going to get a, oh, Justice H. You for Gary put him in. Maria, you get a bourbon of proof? Maro gets my own. I get my own. Fendi. All right. Push it. There you go. There you go. This is so cool. Yeah. So Gary, we also have better news for you is you actually get to have two pours because you're going to drink for Maria as well. Let's go, baby. That's how nice of a guest host is. Thanks for Maria. Maria, what she's so close to me. For Gary is the guest host here. What do I have to ask him? You could ask him questions. It's now your interview. What's up with the loud shirts? We're going to do this again? Well, I think people want to know. I know the answer. So, so. Maria, fake drink it. You're going to drink it. Cheers. Cheers. The loud shirts started. That's good. 2021 going to N.T.L. to my first conference. I know one person out of Valencia. And Joe Fried. And Joe Fried. You knew Joe Fried. I didn't know Joe Fried was going to be there. Oh, okay. I didn't know what Joe Fried really did. I think he's like, I was like, what are you doing here? He's got better questions. What are you doing here? I'm speaking. I'm like, oh, but a lady, my better half says to me, you don't know anybody. What are you going to do to meet people? I said I'm going to sit at the bar, drink self-sauce of water, and buy people drinks. She's like, you're a f***ing idiot. And took me to the Robert Graham store. And I'm looking at all the clown shirts saying, no way. She says, listen, one time in your life. She made me buy nine. Said, where one to breakfast, one to one to dinner. I walked in. I got 20 compliments. Head went up. I was like, okay, this is my brand. And four years later, I have 220 of them. Wow. Mar is more into the colorful underwear thing, but it's, no one really knows about it. Because I like to peacock around in the bedroom. I'm a peacocker. Free ball. I love Maria's face. Her face is worth the million. She can't wait for this. It's at the best. Maria's been on the show. She was on in Atlanta. I was. You had some really good pours on your show. We had one of the champagne, you had the one. You were one of the whiskey's that was very sweet. The one we got from Germany. I don't know, but I've never had a hangover so quickly. Really? I still have some of that left. That was like raspberry, but whiskey or something. I had never had-- That was some very good. I had never had bourbon before. Or whiskey. Was that your first and last bourbon on that show? It was. You said she was in your house. You've never, I was off from Maria. And she always is too busy. She lives-- She lives-- She lives 30 minutes for me. I've never seen her in Miami. Okay, that's a whole-- If you live 30 minutes away from me, I'd see you. That's true. Yes. So Gary, we're going to talk on this episode a lot about you, how you came up, how your kids are now in the industry. You have kids becoming lawyers, that are lawyers. How you have been in this position where you help lawyers grow their practice by being strategic media buys on radio. And is radio dead? We hear this all the time. Is radio just something we throw your money away, light it on fire? I'm going to give you 63 million reasons why radio works. People listen. People respond. The difference between radio and what Maria does with SEL. All attribution for law firms today, 95% of it comes from Google. Nobody picks up the phone and says, oh my god, I saw your billboard. Oh my god, I heard your radio commercial. Oh my god, I did this and I called the law firm. No, they go to Google and everything that Maria does, whether it's in SEO or people see LFA's GMB's, they see the name and they're like, I know that name. But the last touch attribution is going to be for the SEL digital marketing agency. And that's just the way of the world. So as I sit down with people and have this conversation, you either buy it or you don't. I can't make you understand that it actually works until you do it. And I'll tell you, I tell everybody that we partner with, you're going to go through 90 days of living hell, writing big, massive checks and nothing happened. And then all of a sudden. But wait, I have a question. By that logic, radio wouldn't work if you didn't have an SEO strategy. I don't think it's that simple. I think radio can work independently of SEO. It does work independently of SEO. My point is people don't call and say, for law firms, oh, I heard you on the radio, that's why I called. If we were trying to sell these burbin of proof glasses, we could make these asexious glasses in the world, invest $5,000 doing that on the radio and get the ROI on Monday. With a law firm, you cannot make somebody want or need a law firm. Well, because they're not going to, there's no, you can't track back. They listen, they clicked. It's because they clicked. Is there say, well, the attribution came from the click or calling the number, but they don't know where it came from. Unless you just advertise a specific call to action that is unique to that. You could do it that way, but it's probably not wise, because you want to have a single call to action for everybody. But listen, Paul Fass is going to hate this. Put the repeater numbers, the vanity numbers. Do you remember your parents' home phone number and the house you grew up in? Yes. Do you know Moro's phone number? Yes. You know her phone number. I know the first six. I'm gonna see it in my mind. You're not the normal. Do you know the phone number? I have no idea what Bob's number is. I know it's a 310 area code. That's about it. So why remember a law firms phone number that's on the radio 48 times a day per station? Do you remember? Do you remember? So yes, at the end of the day, when they go online, my goal is they do a branded search for the firm. Right, but that's different than SEO. Correct. Okay. But at the end of the day, most of the credit will end up in the digital marketing agencies lack. If the law firm doesn't ask, yes. They're just gonna see the GP, the like Google my business or Google business profile number. I speak to all the law firms I work with. Where are you laughing? Intakes job is not to find out how the fuck they found you. Their intake job is to sign the case up. But the second job is to know how they found them because how do you make decisions, right? But that goes back to the 95%. They know where they came from. I agree with you. So Gary, you're in the Southeast. I know you're originally from here in New York. They've been South Florida now. Where do you service? You're national now, but did you start just in a geographic region or did you? My business started. I never planned on it. I went on a sales call to Anagyar and the Bean. 13 years ago. And he was having issues with the radio station. I show up. He's got a stack of invoices behind him. I said, do you look at those? He was like, no, my people love me. I'm like, you're getting host left and right. He's like, what do you know about my business? I said, nothing. I know my business. And if you don't expect what you expect, you're getting host. He's like, okay, smart. Ask audit, what are my invoices? Well, he was to say I found a lot of errors. And I showed up at his office with a yellow pad of 90 days and all the errors. He didn't get past page one. He was pissed. We got this other person who ran this station in. Wasn't radio, was TV. He says, you're my new ad guy. I'm like, no fucking way. And if you months later, I became his ad guy. What's the most creative ad that you've ever done? What's your favorite ad that you've done? So I'm not a creative guy. Yeah, but you still have to have worked on a campaign and like, man, I really fucking love that one. I guess my favorite campaign across the country is Lundy Law and Philadelphia. It's a father and son. Jordan is 39. I don't even know how old Len is. But they do their commercials together. And they're so unique. They're so real. And it's who they are as human beings. It's not about the money. And I obviously, you know, with 35 firms on the air and 500 stations, it's hard to remember well. But we hope we never meet you. But if we do, we will help you. It's a good one. I like them. And my why nobody understands us is not going to offer it. It's the end user. And if the end user gets to the right place, everybody's going to win. So we're going to come up with an ad for Morrow. He does have stuff in Spanish. Gun, a oi, win today. Bill Borton, a la does very well. Jeff Greenman is in the house. Jeff, can we get around a boss for Jeff Greenman? Straight, yep. So Jeff Greenman is a legend. Hey, this is Bob Simon, the host of Urban Approof. This tour we couldn't do without our sponsors. Even up is an artificial intelligence platform that automates a lot of the mundane tasks that lawyers and law firm staff do from demand letters to do running playbooks, to opening up claims, or in police reports, and doing those so you can spend more quality time with your clients in the courtroom or in their living room. We also have attorney's share. Attorney's share is a product to be able to have lawyers find more cases in their wheelhouse to help clients without having to have the market spend that's out there and also tracking all of your referrals in one place, it integrates with all the major. Case management platforms, and it allows lawyers to really better serve their clients. And also, refer out clients and other jurisdictions and practice areas and be able to monetize all of that good will that they put in. Our other sponsors, Justice HQ, Justice HQ, is a mobile app bringing together all the community in the legal field, from vendors to staff to parallegals. They have our own masterminds. They have our podcasts are on there. Other lawyers podcasts are on there. On demand education, every event in the industry, and you have direct access to the best of the best. And of course, coastal research, coastal research helps all of us injury lawyers find out the insurance limits to investigation that's on the other side. Whether you know it or not, they're not required to in many states to tell you how much insurance is for the person that catastrophically harmed your clients. But coastal research is able to do it very quickly and efficiently for you. They have an actual technology platform that's so easy to use and pushes data back and forth. We only let people sponsor the show if we use their products and believe in them. - So we grew up practicing a lot together in South of California. He's from the state of Washington. Lives up in Massachusetts now. - He's a mass hole. - He's a mass hole now. (laughing) - But we all still stay in touch. We talk all the time. We talk a lot of shit to one another. Oh, we got a mic for Jeff. - He's been picking my ass in fantasy for years. - This is true. - My team is so shitty this year. - We are the worst fantasy. - It's the f***ing worst team ever. - So. - You see the football shirt? - That is the football shirt. - Yeah. - I'm not gonna say that's ugly. - This is actually the shirt. - So when there's a friend of mine. - This is like your real shirt. You have to wear if you lose in fantasy football. - Is it really? - No. It's fashion brand. - You're gonna be shit? - I mean, I bought that one. - Yeah, you did. - All right, so Jeff, we're gonna brand moral. You know moral for years. We gotta come up with a jingle or something we wanna put on the radio for tomorrow. How's it gonna go? For moral. - All right, interesting. I don't know. - Fiori, fire. - Fiori. Well, my friend Ari Resnick has a jingle that he always sings for me. - Oh God. - You know Ari Resnick? He's in the guy in LA. He says, "If you have a flippin' fall at the West Gavina Mall, who you gonna call? Fiori." (laughing) - That's a nice jingle. - That's Ari's jingle for me. - Do you not have that on tape already? - No, I gotta get Ari to sing it, but he has a good delight. - No, you gotta sing it. - Okay. So I imagine a lullaby for Morrow. And it's just him floating in the clouds. It says, "I love you tomorrow. I love you tomorrow. Don't call tomorrow 'cause you need Morrow today." And then he wakes up and picks up the phone. - Wow. - Is he just come up with that? - Did you just come up with that? - Just come up with that. - I think because he's known for-- - Morrow today. - He's known for falling asleep. - Morrow today. - Not tomorrow. - Yeah. - To be known for falling asleep. - Yeah. - I feel like this is in all times. I think you just gotta be like, if you want a snorey, call Fiori. (laughing) - You can also sell mattresses. What you, I, probably your first love was selling mattresses. - Didn't sleep. - By the way, this wood table could be his mattress. - Yeah. - It might be in a few hours after that seven episodes. - I'm not that difficult. I'll sleep anywhere, but-- - So Jeff's a great example. He actually was trial over the year once in LA. The first one to win the Young Gun Award. I think I was second or third in that line. - Yeah, you wrote my co-tales. - It's fine. - They literally named the award after the guy and then they changed it later. But now he runs a successful law practice but also has several, he does real estate deals. A lot of things does stuff with private equity. Just thinking way out. One of the first guys in our group that said, it's much bigger space. He's to show us real estate deals and f**king Utah and she's like, you guys should invest in this apartment. We're like, f**king off Jeff. - We're trying to build-- - Is this guy built like, high at hotels and stuff? Or which of the ones you've built? Is it the, the, the, the Marriott sweets or what is it? - We built hotels like a bunch of Minnesota, some in California. We have over 50 properties nationwide now. I have a real estate investment fund. We have labs, cannabis labs, diagnostic labs. We have any, which way to make-- - Actually during shows. - I'm wearing, I invest in all the stuff. - During COVID, they started a testing lab that we used every single week just to have our employees come. I mean, how much money do you siphon through that? I mean, you had to launder so much cash. - What is this shoe company? - The shoe company is Wolf and Shepherd. Have you heard of them? - Wolf and Shepherd. - Wolf and Shepherd. - They're out of California. So they approached me recently in my group and they're like, we'd like some funding if you have it. I'm like, yep, get you guys some funding. It's a great company. They're pumping shoes out. We have tequila companies. We have lettuce companies. We have cannabis lettuce companies. We have, you know-- - Greenmond is in everything. - Greenmond is in everything. - I still practice water. - That was my next question. - All the things that you do, what's your favorite? - So my favorite right now, I bought a building in my town in Massachusetts and I'm building a restaurant and I've never been more excited about a real estate deal 'cause usually I'm buying and holding. But this one I'm putting together like a high-end restaurant and my little town in Massachusetts and like the entire town's like, "Let's f*** you go!" Are you gonna operate it? No, no. Are you just gonna sell it? No, you know, you know. Either like a Apple Vs or TGI Fridays and thinking, "No, I'm f***ing with you." I love it. Well, are you willing to invest in a bourbon talk show? I mean, you can find so many things. 100% idea. This is all for you, Jeff. We just did this whole thing. Are you willing to take on a stand-alone co-host? We can take on as many co-hosts as we would prefer to host a little less. Learn from Maria. She's figured it out. She got Jent to do it. You guys want another truth? I took a page from Dan Ambrose's, but I've got others to do your work for you. For free. All right. Well, Jeff, we have another guest party I want to do. Where's Ray? Hey, Ray. Thanks, guys. I'm out here for a law. So we're one of the most new creative guys in this space. I've been seeing a lot of the cool shit that he's been doing. Will, we're going to need a pour for Ray, please. Thank you. I want a drink. I'll drink it. Yeah, you drink for me. Well, you said I got a drink. This is a drinking show. You still got one sitting there. Gary, come on, man. Gary's like hell, no. That wasn't a pour. Pour more? You can get a pour. We're looking at, oh, Will's back here, grabbing his bottles. So I first met Ray and Laudie Gras with an open jar of stuff. Did interview and it was f***ing awesome. The stuff you're able to do, the creative around it. So, how do you know these scumbags? This guy. You tell him. You tell him. So my first partner, law firm, outside of Florida was in Atlanta firm. And Ray was his personal videographer. Wow. That was my intro into the world. So this partner of mine says, hey, I want to go to that Robert Gramstor and get shirts like yours. I'm like, okay, Ray sends one of his employees to video him and I in Robert Gram. He tried on 30 shirts. He spent over $5,000 and wore one shirt for five minutes. But it's all on film. And one day, Ray is going to release that video to me. And then I'm going to have fun with it. All right, we're ready for another pour. Ray, I'll take your pour. Thank you. I will do you this service. Thank you. Was it a client? Was it Seth Bader? It was. It was. Okay, so Seth, if you're watching, you have the most iconic last name. You could be. Master. Peter! He could be the master of law. Master of law, very small. And then, Bader, it's the most genius marketing you could do. I agree. That's not very dignified. B.J. A.B.R. to one of our good friends. B.J. is a great child where he started to build boards. I was like, "Why is. I need B.J. on on every single billboard?" By the way. It's Excel. It's Brando says, we have a government. If you decide that marketing is going to be a vehicle to bring you potential clients, be bold, be different, look at the billboards you see all over the country. You see a lawyer's face. We win. We care. We do more. Be different, be bold, be dynamic, and then help people. Because to me, intake is number one. Great legal work has to happen after that. Well, you can't do great legal work if you don't got the cases. Which is great. intake is number one. Great legal. And there are firms all over the country. Here's my thing. This is why I won the Reasons for the Turnie Share. We know people great at marketing, great at getting cases, great at intake. If you could do that and quickly send it to the best lawyers and track the entire life cycle of the case, that is the dream to make sure they get the best representation. We'll pour us another f***ing drink and I've got to take two for Ray over here. Day one when you introduce the Turnie Share. I jumped all in on that because it matters across the country. Here's. With what Maria does, she sees it every day. Law firm A in XYZ City is getting leads from a place that they know nothing about. And those leads have to go somewhere. And they call it. So like when we work with law rank and it says, we're still paying for. I mean, it's coming in whether it's Google or whatever, LSAs. If it's a workers' comp case in Arizona, we're still going to send it to the best lawyer through Attorney's Share without having to do anything. Austin and Brian? Well, they don't do workers' comp. But you still send it to them. We do send them some case. Oh, yeah. I send them a lot of FBI microchip by net cases. They get a lot of those. All right, Will, what are we drinking? All right, so this is the NAB Creek 18 year. So NAB Creek is coming from the Jim Beam DeCellery. So NAB Creek is named after the creek that ran through Abraham Lincoln's town, a little home where he was growing up. Booker No wanted to bring back the roots of pre-provision whiskey and was way of doing that was naming it after that creek, trying to bring out the essence of pre-provision whiskey for the NAB Creek series. 18 year is a special limited edition release they did. It is double the normal age of a normal 18 year flagship. It's also coming in at 100 proof for you. All right, to NAB Creek. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Bye bye, Drinks. Hey, everybody. We look forward to more of your work, because I think your stuff is really cool and interesting and different, man. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. He's already posted something from here. I'm going to get something right here. Yeah. I appreciate you. Not Bob though. I love you. This is good stuff. Bob, did you know that when you make these big cube ice cubes, the ones that come out that are kind of white like these, it means that the water that they're making them with is not very, very pure. When they're clear, it means they're using good water. So these are little shaky these ice cubes. Should we not be drinking? Well, this New York City water, I don't think is too good to be making ice cubes. Supposed to be the second best water in the country. Yeah, it's actually really good water. Yeah, it's really good. They're very foggy. Do you know what number one is? Flint, Michigan. Flint, Michigan. I was going to say that. No, that's definitely not it. Colorado? Boston. Oh, really? Boston. You figured it'd be Seattle since it rained so much. I can't believe these Democrat-run cities have such clean, good water and utilities. It's the Furman. They could just such great utilities that they have. Quiet. Oh, yes, go there. Quiet, piggy. Wow, Maro, you're so quick with those jokes. That was good. Maria, I know you know Gary. You know some interesting stories. What can you elicit out of this gentleman that we don't know about him? Oh, no. No, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no. But I am a little bit curious about radio, right? Because when Gary first came onto the space, I was like, there's no way anyone listens to radio. I was like, this is a complete bullshit. So I go to Google, of course. And I'm like, how many people listens to radio? And it was like a really high percentage, like 80-some or 90. Like it was 93% of the people still listening to radio everywhere. Especially like Hispanic community. They listen to a lot of radio. Well, everybody, yeah. Everybody. But the Hispanic community, not second and third generation, Hispanics. The first generation, what do they want? They want a taste of home. So you can get it on radio or you can get it on. There was no the last medium that is local that touches people and if you follow the things that I say music matters words matter every song has a different meaning to each of us we could all listen to it and it's deep radio stations target in 10 year spans that's it very narrow and they do a great job and yes people across America listen again I'll give you 63 million dollars of investment that say it works because as business people you don't we don't make investments in anything that's not going to work for us now is it hard to start 100% what's the minimum spend so that's different for every market based on population so let's say a mid size market an average investment in a market size 30 to 50 is going to be about 40 thousand dollars a month for how long no no but for how long until you feel like you're going in for 12 months because I work with somebody I'm going to call up Steve mayor Steve can you come up here for one second I'm going to ask him about radio this is one of the biggest Mr. Sweet James himself so Steve who's been on the show before one of the most watched episodes by the way one of the most from various but Steve, do you still invest in radio? - Yes. - Why? - It's a different demographic listens to radio than some of the other mediums. - But you got, I mean, you invest heavily in advertising, marketing, and what part of your portfolio was radio compared to? Do you keep track of that stuff? I mean, you've probably spent about 15 to 20% of our budget on radio. - Wow. - That's a healthy percentage for somebody who does what we call the Holy Trinity. Radio TV billboards. Look, digital is a must. I don't care if you do nothing else. You have to have digital to start. That's your home. The law firm is in the home. The website is. Then find a medium, whether it's radio billboards at TV, and you have to own it. - I mean, all, we, at our kids schools, my little brother, my little brother's school, they did a thing where they asked all the kids, who are the lawyers that you know? And even though it's like, my brothers are there, we sponsored this school. The number one lawyer they know. Sweet James, all of them, all the kids, no one loves sweet James because they see him what I learn is they also do, they also do the YouTube ads, and the kids are watching these things. So they see it all the time, and they like the stuff that he does. So all these kids, teenagers, their parents, all fucking know sweet James. - So here's an interesting stat. The average age of a personal injury client today is 44 years old. I was sitting, I'm not gonna say with who. Two lawyers and their marketing director. The marketing director is 24 years old. And I said to her, "God forbid you got in an accident. Are you calling the two people you work for or are you calling your parents first?" What do you think she said? - Our parents? - 100%. She works for lawyers. So if her parents told her to call Steve's firm, "Is sweet James?" Instead of the firm she works for, that's who she's calling. - That's it, it's for for a market. We're at the end of the episode here, Gary. Barron and I have four more to go. So we're going to make this. We're gonna do this together. What's your bourbon approved? We know you said Widow Jane, it's in the show notes we talked about it, but what is the one drink that you like to have? - So I do love Widow Jane. I do wanna try, I sent you a bottle. And you know who told me about that bottle? - My dad. - Yes he did. Yes he did. - So it's wild, so it was Midwinter's Night Dram by High West, which I love. That day one of my friends, we were on Whiskey Chat. My friend Travis Davis, my law partner, went up and had, he's like, about to finish off a Midwinter's Night Dram. And I was like, "That would be delicious." And then to sure enough, the fucking male shows up a bottle. I cannot, it happened. I opened up and I was like, "I'm gonna drink this bottle." We was the night of the Dodgers, one of the World Series. We drank the entire bottle by self and a friend of mine, the entire bottle. - I bought a Brooklyn Dodgers hat yesterday in honor of my dad, who loved the Brooklyn Dodgers. So I do think the Dodgers. - Well, you know what I'm saying? - All right, well, Maro, thank you for supporting a draft Dodger, which we'll discuss on another episode of Bourbon approved. Gary Sonder, thank you for coming on. Thank you episode number three, New York City. - Thank you, Gary. - You're welcome. - This was fun, Maria. - Thank you very much. - Thank you for watching this episode of Tiffin' Over and Over. - Over and Over. - Over and Over. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)