Batteries Included: The Future of Energy Storage

Welcome to the Power Up Podcast, where we explore the people, technologies and ideas reshaping the power and utilities industry. I'm Tim Stafford, a longtime energy consultant who's seen more rate cases than reality shows. And I'm Sarah Tupac, bringing fresh perspective, plenty of curiosity, and a healthier respect for anything labeled "high voltage." Each episode will break down what's powering the future, from clean energy and grid modernization to AI, electrification, and everything in between. Expect expert insights, real stories from the field, and it wouldn't be the power of podcasts if we didn't fill it with plenty of questionable puns. Because in this business, staying current is more than just a pun. Before we jump in, here's why Slalom is such a great place for this conversation. At Slalom, we work right at the intersection of energy, technology, and transformation, helping utilities and energy companies, modernize operations, deploy new digital platforms, and prepare the grid for what's coming next. That includes everything from AI-powered forecasting and predictive maintenance to new digital tools that will help utilities collaborate with partners better. The Power Up Podcast exists because we're not just talking about the future of energy. We're in the field, we're in the control room, and we're in the boardroom. And this podcast is where we bring those perspectives forward to explore what's next for the power industry. Today's episode, called Battery Included, the future of storage to meet our energy needs, is an interesting one. To help us unpack what that future might look like, we'll be joined by someone who has been right in the middle of that battery and storage transformation, Jeff Munday, Chief Growth Officer at Fluence Energy. We're going to talk about how and why he got into the industry, where the opportunity is, and where he thinks the storage market is headed next. But first Sarah, we're going to have some fun with Lightning Grad, you ready? Oh, I'm ready. Let's do it. Lightning Grad. These are all true or false questions, so we're doing a serious lightning round this time. So one word, one syllable even, no more embellishment or adding to it, okay? Okay, okay, I got it, but you know, I'm not really going to follow your rules, but I'll turn it in when I ask. I don't know why you keep bothering, but okay, okay, that's on record though, because these are being recorded. Okay, here we go. You ready? Here we go. I'm ready. Okay, true or false? A lemon can power a clock. I've definitely seen science experiments with potatoes as a battery. Oh, God, we can't even get through the first question. Okay, okay, okay, okay. So I'm going to say true if a potato can, why not a lemon? Technically, that's true, but what if it was big Ben, then it would be false. So I had a way of making you wrong no matter how well you answered that question. I don't know. But it is actually true. The chemistry inside of battery is so simple that the acidic fruits, like lemons or potatoes, I guess, can act as a tiny battery. So if you stick in two different metals like copper and zinc, you guess you can create an electric current. There you go. See? Potato. I'm a scientist. All right. That's debatable, by the way. All right. Question two. Here we go. Again, true or false? That's it. All right. Got it. Got it. That feels false. I'm going to say false. Wrong. That's true. It's kind of like a trick. You should have known that that's true because that's like one of those. That's crazy one that you're like, everyone's like that's obviously false. But it's right. The obvious false ones are usually true. Archaeologists discovered that there was a Baghdad battery, which was a clay jar containing a copper cylinder and iron rod dating back to around 250 BC. And some researchers think it may have been used for primitive electroplating. So I guess we think that was the first battery. So it's still maybe debatable, but you were still wrong. Interesting. Well, you already stole my thunder because I was going to say that feels like a shockingly true one, even though we skipped the shockingly true segment this time. So interesting. Yes. Well, next time. Next one. Here we go. Next question. Lithium, ion batteries, hate being fully charged. I know this one true. And honestly, I kind of have a beef with it, but I'm not going to go on my whole rant about iPhone batteries and how long you should charge them and feels like someone else should figure that out on our behalf. But that one's true. Well, I don't know if they hate me. That's not the right word. But anyway, calm down on the lithium. You can talk to Jeff about lithium batteries if you want after. And keeping your phone at 100% all the time actually does stress the battery out. lithium batteries last longer when they're kept between 20 and 80%. Okay. Next one. The electric car battery can often outlive the car. I'm going to say false, but I honestly feel like we should have like a whole podcast episode on this topic. I think there's not open questions about EVs. We are going to have the spoiler alert. We are going to have an EV and EV episode coming up. Hopefully soon. But once again, I don't think you've got any of these right wrong again. Yes, I have wrong. So you got that wrong too. So no, many EV batteries still retain 70 to 90% of their capacity after hundreds of thousands of miles and some are actually reused for home energy storage after retiring from vehicles. A fun fact, I literally had a call this morning with a very large auto manufacturer of EVs and they are 100% moving into the battery market as well because they have technology and manufacturing for EV batteries and they want to apply that to other types of batteries. So yes, the technology is definitely moving towards using batteries in many different ways and retaining the life of those batteries after the car dies. Cool. I feel like more people should know that and somehow when you were just talking in my mind came back to the circle of life. I think I just have a symbiotic relationship between all these different energy sources and using them for various things. We do. I think I hit the high note on that one better when I do that version but we won't do that again. You'll have to go listen to that prior episode. Okay, you have one last chance to redeem yourself and maybe put one on the board here. True or false, one alkaline AA battery stores roughly enough energy to lift a one ton car about one foot off the ground, not all at once but just in total energy terms. Okay, I feel like this is definitely a truth of stranger than fiction situation so I'm going to say true. Yes, correct. So you got one right. That was one that was a total set up because like if that was false, you'd be like that's such a lame question like why would that be false? So yes, good job. You saw through that trap right away and you got that one right. And it is another shockingly true statement. So listeners, you get two shockingly truths for the price of one this week. A single AA battery contains a surprising amount of energy. All right, one bonus question you're ready and this one isn't true or false. Okay. Why is it that the battery in your smoke alarm only dies and makes it makes it go off at 3 a.m. every time for everybody? How does it know? This is the question for the times. Do you want to hear my MacGyver story about my recent smoke alarm going off in the middle of the night? Is this anything like your power rangers Bible camp story? It's better and more recent so I can actually run the details of it. Hold on. Let me go get a popcorn. I'll be right back. And this feels like it's maybe kind of a long story, but I'm really proud of myself for MacGyver. So we have a smoke alarm that is like, I don't know, 30 feet in the air or something. So we have a tall, vaulted ceiling in our living room. And of course, that is the only one that ever like starts chirping when the battery is dying. And of course, it always happens in the middle of the night. And so last year, we're like, okay, June, every June, we're going to have all of the batteries change. So we get ahead of this. But then like a month ago, so April, before June, it's been less than a year. That one starts chirping. It's late at night. It's a Sunday. We don't have an extension ladder. None of our neighbors have an extension ladder. No stores are open to get an extension ladder. And my husband is not the best in crises. So I'm like, sometimes it's like there's a bug in it or something. It's not the battery. So I decided I was going to take, we have like this long stick that we used to close our blinds. I duct taped one of those air compressor things that you do to like clean off your desk to it. I duct taped the squeezing it handle thing down so that it was just shooting air. And I like raised it. I stood on the top of the stairs. I leaned over. I challenged my fear of heights. I like sprayed all in it. with the air compressor thing and a month later, it still has not yet chirped. So I solved our problem, Maghiva style. And my husband's like, "Dude, it's not gonna work." And I was like, "Well, we need to try everything possible "because it's the middle of the night "and we're either gonna do this or check into a hotel." So. (laughing) - I'm actually mildly impressed that that one that was actually pretty creative in it, that actually worked. That's, I'm actually, I'm impressed. I mean, I, and I was just like, we're trying anything. (laughing) But we still need, like, even our electrician didn't have a ladder tall enough to change the battery. So we, he needs to come back. (laughing) We're getting a new one installed with, is it a lithium battery that lasts for seven years? So that all comes back around too. - Those people that come, like, do something like that at your house just because you don't have a ladder big enough. Like, do they sit there and be like, what the heck? Like, these people just, they need help. Like, this is not a tough job, right? - Yeah. - Yeah, but then he couldn't do it either. So I felt much more. - You did again. - Yeah, you know, yes, I've indicated, thank you. - All right, let's move on. It's now time for what's the answer, where you try to stump me with a power question. And remember, I expect this to be accurate, true, and you need sources. I don't trust your hallucinations on these. So make sure you, make sure you can prove your point here. - Okay. - Okay, so I have a good one. I was trying to find a good energy related event that happened in June since we are, we are in the month of June, and I found this one. What year was the first nuclear power plant connected to the grid? - Ooh. This is a good one. Like, you finally came up with actually like a good question. I'm just kidding. They've all been pretty good, but this one actually is very good. Because I don't know the answer just off the top of my head, but I might be able to do some deductive reasoning behind getting close. So, all right, you gotta think it's post-World War II. So late 40s-ish, the question is, how much further passed 1950 do we go? My guess would be sometime around, 1950, I'm gonna say. - Wow, not bad. And I mean, I like your solid reasoning to come up with that as well. But I sadly, I think kind of as usual, have to say that your answer is wrong. (buzzer) - Mm. - It was 1954. So, truly not bad, you were really close. And to be exact, it was June 27th, 1954. Seriously, that was a really good guess. But before your head gets too big, follow up question. Where was the plant located? - Oh, man. I mean, I'd have to say the United States would be a logical answer. Let me say, I'm not just my final answer, I'm still thinking. I mean, the 1954 thing is an interesting data point 'cause you gotta think, yes, to build the plant out of taking some time. I'm gonna go, it's gotta be, I'm gonna say United States. Final answer. - Sorry, man. Yo again, wrong. (buzzer) Soviet Union. - That was my backup, because I mean, that was the cold war era. So, I think we both had the most nuclear technology back then. So, I mean, I kind of had a 50/50 chance and what can I say, I was more patriotic than you were. - Was it a war era yet in 1954? - Totally. - It's like the hard, it was. - It was? - Yes. It's like the hard of a war era. - I'll fact check that later. - Yeah, where are you in high school? - In my face, when I'm in war in 1954? Yeah, definitely. Okay, but because we're an educational podcast, I wanna give a little more interesting information about this. So, and I'm probably gonna pronounce this wrong, but it was the obninsky nuclear power plant in the Soviet Union. That was the first one to generate electricity for a public grid. And some of the reasons why this matters, particularly for our power up podcast, is that it started the commercial nuclear utility era. It influenced US and European nuclear programs, and it changed long-term utility generation planning. So, we've been at this for a long time. - That's good. - On these multiple sources of energy. - That's good history. And we will have a, we'll do a show on nuclear too. That'll be a fun one too. There's some few folks we could bring on that have awesome perspectives, especially with SMR's, SMR technology, the modular reactors. It's a big thing right now. So, remember, hit subscribe for that future episode. - Look at you doing the marketing now, Tim. - Love it, takes a village. (laughing) - Tim, I'm looking forward to listening to your conversation with Jeff Monday. So, let's get to it. Jeff is new to the industry, which is exciting for me. I guess I'm not the newest kid on the grid anymore. Jeff joins the energy industry after a long and successful career in the technology space. He is looking to revolutionize how fluids can bring large utility scale storage quickly and reliably to the world. He has ambitious growth plans for fluids and is building an amazing delivery capability to meet the most aggressive growth targets we have seen in some time. - Thanks, Sarah. I've actually known Jeff for quite a while and I've always admired his ability to grow businesses and to define and install for amazing growth patterns in other industries. So, he'll definitely be up leveling our industry and changing the way that we deliver the needed energy growth for our future. - Awesome. I'll look forward to listening and I'll meet you back after your conversation with Jeff. (upbeat music) - Hi Jeff, welcome to Power Up. - It's so good to have you on the show. Well, okay, we're in the world first. Are you joining us from today? - Tim, first and foremost, thanks for having me on the show. I am currently in Zurich, Switzerland this week. - Nice, nice. What's the weather like? - It's gorgeous. Actually, me and the leadership team went for a run this morning and finished by jumping into the river. And I think the river was a balmy 45. - Cold plunge. - Snow melts. So, definitely a cold plunge. It was great. - Oh, wow. - Kept it so safe for the nine hours and meetings we had today. (laughing) - That's a good leadership tactic. Is that Zurich, where the Matterhorn is? Is that, or am I thinking? - Ah, actually, to be fair, I don't know. There's lots of pictures of Matterhorn in this hotel, so I'm making an assumption at that point. - All right, Jeff, you've had a deep and highly successful career rooted in technology. Walk us through a little bit of your journey and how it led you to fluids. - Yeah, actually, I've had the privilege to be a part of some incredible teams. Leads some of the technology revolutions of our time. My career started at Apple. I was there for 20 years. Proud to say, I helped lead the iPhone charge into the Enterprise at Peak Blackberry, which was an interesting sales motion for sure. Definitely got laughed out of a few CIO meetings quite early. They felt it was a toy, but I think it's actually an interesting analogy to battery energy storage and the data center space, which we can talk a little bit about later. But progressed on, helped build out the B2B channel that became a part of Apple retail, and then felt like there was an opportunity for me to step into or back into a global role with a new company called Qualcomm. It was Qualcomm for six years, helped lead the diversification of their revenue, particularly with compute and PC. Our team was well known in that space. We launched Snapdragon PCs and inside of six months, we took 10% share from Intel. So I've always had a chance to lead hyper growth fast-paced teams. This last summer, I started talking to Fluence and they were looking for someone to lead sales and marketing. And I was watching the energy space from afar, always curious and always kind of, wondering what the impact was. Wasn't until we had a meeting with one of the CEOs of the hyper scalers at Qualcomm, and that CEO and the team had flown down to Qualcomm, and they spent the whole day with us. And I was kind of curious, what why invest that kind of time? Turns out, the CEO had done some modeling and found out that they run out of power in five to seven years because of their AI and data center needs and felt that Qualcomm had four billion devices around the planet that all had little AI chips on them. And he felt that if he can move 10 to 20% of the data center load onto device, it would buy him a few more years of time. And it was in that moment that I realized, you can't really disconnect the AI race from a power race. And when you look at the fundamental architecture that's really gonna power this AI revolution, it's a power revolution as much as it is an AI revolution. So I've now been a part of Fluence for the last seven years, or seven months, I have said seven years, it's been a while, right? Seven months is Chief Growth Officer. I lead all of sales and marketing, and it's been an incredibly fun ride. - I can understand seven months and energy feels like seven years sometimes, so I can relate. That's an awesome transition. And I think it's funny because our very first episode, we had an AI leader from AWS. us come on our show. And this is somebody who's prominently in the AI space for one of the top hyper scalers out there. And he's like, the number one thing is power for the AI future revolution. So it's funny that we're hearing that very consistently. So in moving from kind of more tech-oriented companies into energy and storage now, what's kind of surprised you a little bit of that transition? What are some things that are a little different than you thought coming in? Yeah, outside looking in, I think I was, yeah, I said, ah, I'm going to be great, I'm from tech. That's energy. It's going to move nice and slow. I'll be able to get in there and really make a dent in the industry. What I found is that this industry moves just as fast, if not faster than tech. If you're not paying attention, right? It is a highly dynamic industry that's being shaped by policy, being shaped by economic changes, geopolitical changes, it's incredible. And it's on a fun. I would say it's very small industry, just like techists, and you know, excited to kind of bring what we did in the tech world, infuse some of that into this energy space as well. Yeah. And I'll say I agree with all that. I think on behalf of the energy industry, thanks for coming in because we need more of that outside thinking to help us move the industry even faster. Because to your point, it's clear we're at a very pivotal moment in history, in my opinion, as it relates to energy. And we need as much talents as we can get to move the needle. So on behalf of the entire industry, thank you for joining us on this journey. Excited to be here, honor. Oh, awesome. Awesome. Let's pivot a little bit to get into storage, because I know this is an area of a lot of interest for our listeners and the industry as a whole. And I think a lot of people don't fully understand everything about storage. I think there's some misconceptions out there that we can maybe dispel a little bit. So battery storage, you know, it was kind of a niche grid technology. And now it's becoming a strategic asset, a critical infrastructure need, I would say, in the energy space. And I think, you know, to your point earlier, it's driving the future of AI and everything else, you know, what has changed most dramatically for us in the last five years? And what do you think the broader public still doesn't understand about storage? Yeah, you said it best, actually. You know, the biggest change that storage is going through is that storage is no longer being viewed as a niche clean energy tool, right? It's kind of had that brand over the last few years. Moving into today's environment, it's being far more treated as a core infrastructure, right? Five years ago, a lot of the conversation was about batteries as a way to store renewable energy, you know, help solve the intermittency issue when the sun was shining or the wind was blowing or actually when it wasn't shining and when the wind wasn't blowing, you could use batteries to load that energy into the grid. And that's still very much a critical use case. But the role of storage is vastly expanded. Today, storage is all about reliability, capacity, resilience, flexibility, and ultimately speed. What I think the public still misunderstands is that storage is just not, it's not just a backup battery, right? It's an active grid asset. And I think that utility is probably the most misunderstood aspect to battery energy storage. A battery can respond to milliseconds. It can help manage peak demand, stabilize the system, reduce congestion, and make other energy resources more effective. And that really matters even more in an AI-driven world because the challenge is not just how much electricity we have over the course of a year. It's whether we can deliver reliable power exactly where and when it is needed. Yeah. We talk a lot in the industry about there's kind of three competing priorities going on. And it's unfortunate that they're competing, but it's become that based on the environment we're in. One is affordability. If you look at you and I both live in an area of the country that doesn't have the cheapest electricity prices out there. And we're seeing it all across the country and in fact, the world. So energy prices and electricity prices are far outpaced, inflation, and it's driving an affordability crisis for people that just can no longer continue to afford that. And we're driving more electrification, which means we're driving more things to that bill. So there's an affordability angle to this. There's a reliability angle that a lot of the utilities and industry professionals are concerned with. You mentioned that we have a runway of electricity supply. And then there's decarbonization. And that's obviously highly contentious, political kind of discussion. So you have these priorities that are all kind of combingling. And where do you see battery storage having the greatest impact on that equation that we're in? I'm not going to ask you to comment on policy things, but just where do you think battery can help? Because we're in a that pivotal moment in energy. And I feel like there's a critical role for that battery and storage can play. And how do you think that fits in? It's interesting. When you think about other assets out there that you can tie to a grid, to your point, you're usually making a compromise. You're usually picking two, maybe one of these things and you're compromising the others. Storage is interesting because it's really powerful because it sits at the intersection of all three. On reliability, battery energy storage can respond quickly when the grid is stressed. And I think we've got a really strong answer there. On affordability, we're seeing that it can help reduce price strikes, as well as reducing congestion and the cost of serving peak demand. We've seen many use cases where batteries are coming in as peak shavers, ultimately helping reduce the cost of when energy is the most expensive. On decarbonization, it makes renewable energy more useful by shifting energy to when it's needed most. And so I think when you step back, the important point is that storage is not about replacing every other resource. It's about making the whole system work better. It helps generation, transmission, renewables and large loads operate together more efficiently. And I think what you see is over the next decade, the greatest impact will come from storage helping the grid manage peak demand and volatility. That is where reliability and affordability pressures often show up, probably most clearly. Yeah. You mentioned the tie in with renewables. And we're seeing continued growth in renewables, despite some headwinds that happen in certain pockets of the world. But when you what I'm seeing at least is renewables, even here in the US, still continue to grow because it's a means of getting energy quickly onto the grid and to your point of data center growth. I don't think it's becoming so much an environmental thing, although that obviously still exists. It's more about speed to getting power onto the market. And I think that with that growth in renewables, you talked about how battery fits in. I'm curious, when do we see a future where that now is just harmoniously integrated across those different commodity types? Are we there yet? Are we there to a point where renewables and storage are now clearly connected? Do we still have further to go? And where in the world do you think we're a little bit more connected in terms of how renewables and battery can fit together? Yeah, Tim, actually, I remember I called you when I was deciding whether I should go to Florence. And I remember something you said really stuck with me, and you said, look, the world's going to need it all. And I think that that statement's more true now than it has ever been. And what we're seeing is that as you look at IPPs in specifically, they're actually seeing that when you combine a hybrid solution, taking full advantage of the grid connection, and you combine solar plus storage, it's the fastest way to make your IRR model pencil. And so when I look at my pipeline here at Florence, more and more of standalone storage is actually converting to hybrid to take full advantage of the grid connection. We're also finding that, you know, when you look at solar plus storage, it can move fast at the pace of AI data center build out. You can get solar and storage deployed in the space of a year or two, where some of these gas assets that these data center operators are waiting on, the supply chain still three to five years out. And so what's been probably the biggest one of the bigger shocks coming into this role is if you would have told me when I started in October that we would have gas companies calling us to pair up on data center opportunities, I would have laughed, right? But what we're seeing is it's now a very matrix multi-asset approach to helping get these data centers online. And they're looking at everything, just like you said, they're looking at batteries, they're looking at solar, they're looking at gas, and how those come together to deliver an energy architecture that optimizes based on their needs, which is really, really exciting. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I'm curious like that, that, you know, unprecedented demand for electricity, how involved does a company like Fluence and you all get in policy and shaping what the governments are thinking in terms of how this should work. You know, are you just reacting to market demands? Are you guys able to help influence and drive where we should look at this from a policy perspective? Yeah, I'll answer that because I think that the two are inextricably tied, right? You can't talk about the AI race without talking about the energy race, right? And what we're seeing is that AI is creating these large, concentrated, and really kind of an urgent demand for power. The question is not whether there's enough electricity on an annual basis, and I think this kind of gets to the policy piece, but It's whether reliable power can be delivered at the right location. We've got a whole policy team that's helping shape that. And the reason for that narrative, or why we're helping drive a policy narrative around this, is that there's a lot of noise right now that all we need is more base load power. And if all we do is go produce more base load power, we're gonna be in the same spot that we are right now. These AI data centers, kind of an analogy I like to think about is if you just pursue a base load power only strategy, it means you're gonna have to build a 10 lane freeway everywhere you go. What we're finding because of the AI data centers is that actually you can get away with the two or three lane highway, you just need to flex the 10 lanes when that load comes through. And that's where batteries can help with that flexibility. What we're finding is that a base load power narrative combined with a battery energy storage gives and makes pretty much every asset that's on the grid flexible. It allows it to do that peak shaving and that really kind of starts to change the conversation with utilities and governments. It shifts the focus more towards how can batteries help with speed to power, grid stability, flexibility and reliability. And what we're seeing is that data centers are not accepting waiting 10 years for the grid to catch up, or waiting 10 years to get through the interconnection queue. Storage is playing a real central role to that conversation because it can be deployed so quickly as I said, right? And not only can it be deployed quickly, it can respond instantly and help manage those demand spikes, which helps support broader system reliability. At Fluents, we're seeing this directly through our engagement with the hyperscalers and the data center developers as well. Jeff talked to me a little bit about the different types of battery that's out there. I know Fluents, it may not play in all this space, but just so that somebody like Sarah, she's new to the grids who want to kind of give her the background on battery. We have utility scale, we have sort of large, you know, large to medium sort of load battery. And then you have the residential sort of retail side of the equation, maybe lay out a little bit of how you see the overall battery storage market and the trends that we're seeing there. And then I want to get into a little bit about distributed energy and things like that because I think that what we're seeing is, I like to use the term utilities have to become more of an orchestrator than the way we've historically operated. Orchestration is much harder, I think, for the utilities to move into than how they've historically done this. So maybe talk a little bit about the different types of battery and how that fits into distributed energy. Yeah, I think it's a really good question. I will say, I am not an expert on any of the consumer batteries. So you're going to have to ask one of your other experts on that piece. I haven't spent a whole lot of time there. I've only been seven months in the industry. And I'm just barely caught up on grid scale battery storage. But what I can say is that, to your point, the orchestration layer becomes really, really critical. Yeah, when you step back and look at the grid instability challenge, I often think about Clayton Christensen's disruptive innovation. And one of the core concepts from his book is how do you solve the problem closer to the customer? And I think batteries allow you to deliver energy closer to the problem. And the orchestration of that, I think, becomes increasingly critical. Batteries give you that flexibility that they can solve a number of use cases, everything from backup power to peak shaving, for the data centers, we're actually seeing them solve the challenge of cleaning power and delivering a clean power curve both back between the data center and the grid. And so I think as we look at this next generation, it's going to take not only the batteries, but the software layer. What I've seen in tech is that when you've got hardware plus software, you can quickly start to define and get to a software-defined network. That orchestration layer is exactly what's needed to help get there. And I think that that's really going to be kind of the next front here is who can help provide that orchestration layer that allows you to take advantage of all these distributed assets and harmonize them in such a way that you can start to solve some of the larger problems, rather than just the local problems batteries are solving directly. Hey, man. I couldn't have said that any better. I think whoever solves for that, that's going to be a huge opportunity in the market, for sure. I want to talk a little bit about supply chain and geo-politics that have now become front and center in the energy space. As you well know, everything going on in the world today. I'm curious about the risks and opportunities around the manufacturing side of battery. We hear about critical minerals and energy independence and a shift away from certain-- and I'm certainly not asking you to be an expert in the chemistry of what goes into the batteries. That's probably unfair. But I'm just curious, how much do you all get involved in where those risks and opportunities are around the manufacturing and supply chain side? It's a really good question. I mean, especially with the geopolitical environment we have right now. I get this actually a lot from our customers. And what we're seeing is that now that energy storage is part of the critical infrastructure, supply chain resilience becomes essential. What we're finding is our customers want confidence that projects can be delivered, that the technology will perform, and that they're not overly exposed to a single supplier, region, or policy outcome. So the opportunity is really to build a more resilient, diversified supply chain that support energy security while maintaining profitability and bankability. And I think that at Fluence, we've made pretty significant investments to create optionality for our customers and really design our supply chain for resilience across markets. We stepped into and realized actually started during the pandemic, Tim, which was quite interesting. During the pandemic, we found that we couldn't get the key supplies that we needed from China because a lot of the supply chain systems were shut down. So we made the strategic decision to invest in a completely 100% domestic supply chain just to give our customers optionality here in the US to have a-- called most of the world supply chain and a domestic supply chain. That's really helped us navigate into a strong competitive position with OB-3 coming into the fold and some of the ITC tax credits in terms of availability. We've been a leader in domestic content. So I think that gives our customers the surety that we're going to be able to build the best products at competitive costs and deliver those products consistently to help meet their revenue goals. It's definitely a key differentiator for us and it's something we'll continue to lean into. As far as battery chemistries, I'll say, it's quite interesting. We get this question a lot. I mean, we've seen a lot of interesting announcements out there on new age battery technologies. What we're finding is that for right now, Lithium, LFP is a very reliable, very call it cost competitive solution for a number of battery applications. Everything from the two to four hour batteries that we're putting into support data centers, all the way out to eight hour and even beyond for long duration energy storage. I was on with a policy maker in the UK just a couple weeks ago and we participated in the long duration energy storage auction with a bunch of our partners and customers. And they were just blown away at how inexpensive Lithium. They thought they were going to have to go to some new age battery technology, but just how inexpensive Lithium was at that eight hour duration. We get a lot of questions if we're exploring new battery technologies. We constantly are looking at them. I think, you know, sodium becomes probably interesting in four to six year time horizon. But we've got a commitment to our customers to deliver cost competitive reliable solutions. And when you look at it, it influences fleet. We've actually got over 50 gigawatt hours of batteries in operation right now. And they're all lithium based and our battery availability is sitting above 98%, which is pretty dang impressive. We got another 30 gigawatt hours going in this year. So massive expansion. We're finding that this is the best technology to answer the current need and we're continuing to explore new technologies as they become available. That's awesome. And I presume safety and security and things like that have gotten better over time. It seems with some of the battery technology. I know that that's a concern many years ago. But it feels like that's been dispel a little bit. I think so. And I think, you know, Florence is leading the way. They were the first company to do a large-scale fire test and to make sure that, you know, when and if there's any issues, we've got zero propagation from our battery pods. And so we've invested across the board in being a leader in fire safety, leading a lot of the fire certifications and investing the first responder community into how to respond to batteries. And so I think, you know, we'll continue to lead that way. And it's a high expectation for our customers. But again, going back to that 98% availability, you've got to deliver a reliable product that consistently performs for 25 years. And, you know, those are the customers we're working with and those are the ones that we want to continue to work with. We had a firefighter on a couple episodes ago and he did not mention batteries as a concern. at all. So I think that's a good sign, a good indicator. A lot of strides have been made. And I think we'll continue to make those even stronger. And that's awesome. Okay. You know, for policymakers that might be listening to our podcast and then we get them occasionally. What is one trend in the utility space that our policymakers should be paying more attention to, you know, as it relates to battery and storage? What would you, what would you say? Give me something to think in a nugget that we can, we can help influence our policymakers that are out there. Yeah. That's a really good question. I touched on it a bit earlier, right? And I think that the trend I would point to is that the grid does not just need more power, right? This can't just have a base load power narrative by itself. It needs more flexibility. AI data centers, electrification and industrial growth are creating demand that is faster and really more concentrated. You could even say more dynamic than what the grid was originally designed to serve. At the same time, adding new generation and transmission still remains very essential. But those projects can take years to plan and they've got to be permitted and then they've got to be built. And that is where storage becomes so important. Storage can help address near term demand because it can be deployed quickly, but its value is much bigger than that. It provides long term flexibility that the grid needs to manage peaks, balance variability, improve reliability and make better use of both existing and new infrastructure. So I would say the underappreciated trend is flexibility. The future grid will not be defined only by how much capacity we add, but how we intelligently and reliability are reliably. We can use and put storage to work and ultimately dispatch power when and where it's needed. Yeah, it's like the analogy is the band-aid, the tourniquet, the rehabilitation program all wrapped up into one. Yeah, it's interesting. I still think a lot of people that we talk to are still considering battery energy storage for one use case. Right? Right. Where really the value is in the agility of the asset to be able to respond to a number of use cases and those that are modeling IRR models that stack multiple use cases for batteries quickly see that they pay back over a much faster period of time and help get our customers to profitability. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. All right. I know, you know, fluency is a global company. You're in Zurich right now demonstrating that. I'm curious the perspective of the different regions of the world and how they're moving as it relates to storage and let's say energy innovation to that point you just made on, you know, there are certain people more progressive thinkers and policymakers that see that level of orchestration and then maybe there's parts of the world that are slower to adopt that. I'm curious, how does the US and Europe and Australia and the Middle East, how do you see this from a regional perspective? Is there a part of the world that's more progressive in this and others need to catch up? Are there things other parts of the world are doing better? Where does the US fit in? I'm just curious kind of the global point of view of storage. Yeah, I think there's not one single global story. I think my life is a lot easier if it was. But what we're seeing is that the different markets are innovating for different reasons. The common thread is that storage is becoming strategic infrastructure. So if you were to pull a red thread through it, we're finding that storage is kind of risen to that level of strategic and critical infrastructure. In Australia, storage is playing a major role in supporting grids with very high levels of renewable penetration, right? We see that actually up to 50% of the renewable assets are getting curtailed in the middle of the day. So by deploying batteries, we can actually absorb all of that energy that's being created and put it to work. So it's really exciting. That market is helping write the playbook on grid stability. They're leading in grid forming technology and really how batteries can support reliability as you see kind of a resource-mix shift change as they move away from coal. And I think there's a strong focus on how storage can help integrate renewables, reduce exposure to energy volatility, and support a more resilient power system. In the US, we are seeing several forces come together at once. We see growing peak demand, electrification, renewables integration, grid congestion. And of course, how could you forget AI data centers, right? Data centers are a major part of the story, but the broader issue is that the grid needs more flexible capacity. For fluents, being global matters because we can take lessons from one region and really apply them elsewhere. While still adapting to local grid needs, we've got incredible teams that are working at the policy level, at the grid forming level, really understanding deeply the market rules and ultimately the customer requirements. And so being at this global stage, we're definitely taking best practices from each region and helping kind of redeploy those where it makes sense. Very cool. I missed your up. So I should say. And you're in Europe right now. I know. So rude, right? Come on, have some context. Anyhow, I think in Europe, the conversation is very tied to energy security. I think that's one of the key differences. It's energy security, it's decarbonization and flexibility. So the fix there is how can storage kind of integrate all of these resources that are available from renewables to reducing exposure to energy volatility and and ultimately supporting a more resilient power system. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome insight from the global perspective, Jeff. Thanks. Okay. We're done with the hard part of the show or the easy part of the show. Maybe the next part might be harder depending on your point. Yeah. I'm a little nervous now with that. So you know me, Jeff, we like to have a little fun. So you're not off the hook on questions. I got a few more for you. But these are going to be geared in a completely different direction. So you're you're in Zurich. I would call you a road warrior. I think you have been for a while and continue to be as you know, I am as well. So we're going to have a bit of a of a travel off right now where you and me are going to kind of compare some points on traveling and we're going to see who who might have some some different better experiences or better better better knowledge of the travel industry. So these are going to be quick fire questions. So you're not going to have a lot of time to think. Yeah. I just give you your initial gut gut gut answer on this. And before we get into it, I do want to give a funny story for our audience. I don't know if you remember this, but I was flying back from Seattle. I had some meetings up there and it was like a Friday afternoon. I was exhausted long week. And I I I moved my flight. I ended up with a middle seat. I was in the last row of the plane. And I get on, you know, first because I had, you know, elite status. And who do I see sitting one row in front of me in a middle seat as well with elite status none other than Jeff Monday. And I was like, this is pretty funny. And we kind of looked at each other and we said, yeah, this is a long week. And yeah, I'll see I'll see you in San Diego. And I think that was we went our way. Yeah. Yeah. The middle seat. If you I feel like if you've got the middle seat, there's been a string of bad decisions. I haven't figured out what those bad decisions are, but you know, they it happens more than I think. So I need to really figure that out. I could I can help you out. I don't think I've had a middle seat since then. So that's I got a good string. I'm gonna press it. All right. Here we go. You are you ready? Ready. All right. Here we go. What's your most favorite place you've traveled to for work in the past year? Oh, I would say Indonesia. Indonesia. I have not been Indonesia. So okay, one point Jeff. So you're up you're up one on me. All right. Next one. Here we go. How often do you get upgraded on your on your airline of choice? And what is your trick to maximize your chances? Answer is not enough. And that's probably because I don't have a trick. All right. We're going to go. I've got I've got a elite status on like three different airplanes. And you know, I was I was going to the airport. I didn't even realize that I had it at one. And you know, I was talking to this person like you have Emerald executive platinum on American. Like you don't have to answer this question. You can just get on the plane now. And I was like, Oh, I guess that's that's good. But of course, I got on the plane and didn't get upgraded. So I'm gonna need some tips here, Tim. All right. Well, yeah. Managing elite status is definitely a skill that I have. So we're going to go point Tim. I'll give you some tips and tricks on that. There's better ways you can do that to ensure that you're upgrade chances are more probable. So we'll get that to one to one at this point as a score. When you get on the plane, let's say a long long journey, do you watch movies or do you work? And I promise you no one from Fluence is listening. So you can give us your true honest opinion. How long's the journey? Because I got different strategies on this. Let's say over four hours. Over over four hours. Let's say. But is it 10 hours? Because there's a lot of over four. Right. So I would say my strategy is always earn your movie. Right. So work to clear the inbox. So that way you can get a movie. And then I would say on a 10 hour plus flight, my jet lag secret is if there's a horizontal surface, you should be sleeping on it. So skip the first meal. Go right to bed. Usually you know, have the breakfast meal and you're you're just right for wherever you're gonna end up. Same exact strategy. So clearly we're both doing something we're called a tie. So it's still one to one. Last question. Who has better food and airline or a prison? What kind of prison are we talking about? Are there different types of prison? Like it's a white collar. There's nice prisons. There's like, you know, there's the the hardcore like the clink. Yeah, not like the one in New York. What is that one? The really bad one in New York that they've make all that shows. I had no idea. Why why why call our prison versus airline? What would you take? You had to pick one. I think I'd still pick the airline because at least I'm not in prison. Good point. Okay. Good point. I'm going to call it, uh, I don't think either. I think it's there's no winner in that scenario. I'm going to take the point because I'm not going to eat either. So that's a nice. There you go. Jeff, that's it. Uh, it's always a pleasure to talk to you. I always learn something when we talk, which is so cool. Um, it's funny. You know, you've been in the industry. You said seven months, but, um, but it's funny because it feels like seven years or more when I talk to you because you, you're a sponge. You just, you just absorb that and you, you, uh, it's so awesome to hear your perspective. So thank you so much for being on the show. One cool thing that we do, um, as part of this is we like to make a donation, uh, in a charity, um, of interest around you. I know you're a big biker. Uh, we didn't get into that. That's a whole maybe, maybe there's a separate podcast for biking expertise that we electric biking, right? Electric biking at that. Yes. I know. I know. Um, so I, I did find an interesting biking charity that, uh, it's the Los Angeles bicycle academy that provides support for youth and underserved communities, building leadership and entrepreneurial skills through access to biking. And, uh, when I was researching these folks, it looked, it looked really neat and it looked like a really nice, nice legitimate charity. Um, so we'll make a donation. Um, it'll be roughly in the amount of your last electric bill, which you don't have to disclose here, but we'll, uh, we'll work with the off-line to, uh, to get that donation done. And, and that's a thank you for, for the time you spent with us in your, in your insight. So I really appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks for having me. The charity is going to be very excited because my solar goes in in three weeks. And so, uh, uh, what's going to, we can waste them out. It's going to be a really nice amount living in San Diego. So yes, happy, happy to share that with you and, and, uh, you know, thanks for your consideration. That's, that's really great. Love that you guys do that. Tim, always a pleasure and, uh, looking forward to catching up in person here soon. Sounds good. To save travel, Jeff. Thanks. Thanks. Talk soon. Okay. Could we just start by you giving me your tips on managing elite status? That's my key takeaway so far from, uh, from your conversation with, because all the travel that you do, because you like when you won't get on an airplane, that's right. You're worried about your, so when I am flying, I want the best tips possible to have the best seat possible. Well, well, the first tip is try traveling that usually helps because, if you give that money, they tend to treat you a little better. That's like probably the, the first, the first thing I will say, uh, being more loyal to an airline definitely helps. Um, so with loyalty comes a little bit of added. And then I think all the airlines have different algorithms for their upgrade status. So you have to learn the nuances of the different airlines and how they, how they do their upgrades. United, I've got figured out the other ones. I don't really know as much, but I can give you the United Secret Algorithm, but there's value to that. I don't give that free on the podcast to everybody. So we'll have to charge that. I'll figure out a way to, to earn that conversation with you. Yeah. Okay. But back to the actual purpose of the podcast. I think a lot of people don't think as much about the flexibility of batteries and, and to his point of like, typically people think of that as like your backup plan that you have some battery charged up sitting in your house ready to go. Um, but you both regularly use the term orchestration. And as you were talking, I was just really thinking about that concept of like an orchestra. And when you asked Mike Graibull in the episode with him, if you could reinvent the grid now with everything you know, what would you, how would you do it? And our Uber example that we used of like the car, just, you call it, it shows up when you need it. I think it was an interesting like what I see as a beautiful future to solve the question of reliability, affordability and you know, environmentally conscious is this orchestra of all these different energy sources just on their own determining what energy you use at what time to hit all of those categories that we were talking about. But my real question, if we create this orchestra, do the duck curve and elephant bellies go away? And then it just becomes like a snake because the snake is flat. Is that the future that we're going to start just talking about the snake not curve because there'd be no curve anymore? That's my, that's my real question to you Tim. The new kid on the grid has grown up. This is, this is a, this is a great, a great question. Yes, that is the ultimate goal is to have that. I will give you a better analogy though. Like I told my doctor the other day, I just had my annual physical and he's like, I'm like, dude, our two businesses are so alike. I said, the human body and the orchestration of blood flowing through and the organs and their role and the power industry and how we get power through different assets. I said, we do the same thing, man. And he was like, no, not at all. He's like, you do four extra years plus residency plus. Yeah. He's like, you should cut back on the red wine and you should do it. And he's like, don't try to change the topic. He's like, that's, no, that's not the point of the physical. But yes, yes, we are hoping for a snake curve would be the, would be the ideal state. And definitely battery, you know, battery and storage has done tremendous things for helping smooth those loads out. So I think Jess's point around that and that is the key takeaway is that we are, we are, we are becoming a lot better at orchestrating those different types of commodities that are coming online, which is cool. Yeah. Well, Tim Stafford, powered by red wine. And with that, all right. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please hit subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Till next time, Tim, let's. PASS! [Laughter] I was a solid power up. I feel like we kind of sometimes we've been like, kind of, that one was felt energy now. I feel like we're back. And you really were like, how high can I go? I know. I was kind of, that was kind of a dead hour.