Batch LDN: Sustainability Suits All

From consumer insights across the world to the latest tactics and trends, you're listening to Leap into luxury, the GoTo marketing podcast for luxury brands. I'm Natalie and today we're talking to Sam and Julian co-founders of Batch London, a forward thinking and sustainability driven fashion brand building a community of well-dressed but conscious shoppers. Welcome both, thanks for joining us today. Thank you very much. You're very excited. It was a nice little summary actually. Good, not bad. The nail on the edge. So before we jump into discussing what led you to launch Batch London and your journey to date, I thought it'd be good to outline the current fashion landscape for our listeners. So 2pm reports that 13 of the top 20 direct consumer brands at the moment are in the fashion and apparel industry, which demonstrates the power and vastness of the sector. Unfortunately, according to Reuters, whilst textile production has doubled over the last decade, the amount of times clothes are worn has apparently dropped by 40%. And more shockingly still, less than 1% of clothes are recycled. In the first half of 2019, according to report by HitWise, faster than fast fashion, the likes of Boohoo, never fully dressed and misguided, who were recently purchased by Sheen, accounted for 66% of online fashion traffic. So it seems that even in the face of the climate crisis, the pull of low prices, dopamine hit fashion and the fear of the double wear is still enticing consumers to make those instant gratification purchases. And I guess that's exactly what Batch London are trying to combat. So could you tell us a little bit about your journey to launching Batch London? Absolutely, it would be my pleasure. Yeah, so first and foremost, obviously, the situation that you've outlined is very stark and that was why we wanted to start Batch London, but it actually came from a problem that Sam, my co-founder, sat right next to me here, had was that he couldn't find a decent casual suit and approached me with that problem. That was the initial premise for starting Batch. The traditional suit is arguably overly formal. You can only really wear it with certain clothes, certain occasions. So we saw an opportunity to create a much more versatile product, a product that you could dress casually, just as easily as you can dress smartly and ultimately have an outfit for all occasions and a suit that's much better reflection of the modern day. Then naturally, when you start a fashion brand all for any business, you need to look in ways in which you can be sustainable. But that was something that we wanted to establish from the outset. We don't necessarily have a fashion background, just a keen interest in fashion. We were both well aware that fast fashion is bad, our culture, over consuming clothes is clearly a very big issue and we quickly started to realise they might have clothes that are ending up in landfill as ridiculous. We all know this, but no one's really doing anything about it. It's got to the point where six and ten items of clothes made every single year end up in landfill within 12 months. So there's a huge issue, it's a shocking issue. I'm always cautious about branding these like facts because it's not about greenwashing here, just something needs to be done and ultimately we can look to shop a little bit more responsibly unconsciously. So we went about establishing batch to oppose the waste, the overproduction and our culture of over consuming clothes and long and short of it is we make all of our clothes toward it which means if you only produce exactly what has already been ordered, we aren't any creating any clothes that are going to end up in landfill unused and unsolved essentially. So that's how big play on sustainability. Well done, I'm doing something about it. Can you tell us a bit more about that kind of made to order approach then? Yeah, absolutely. So to Julian's point, there's a huge amount of cleaning that goes to landfill and something that you touched on at the start of the episode. The big driver of that are your big fashion, fast fashion brands that are releasing, disgusting numbers of styles a year. So I read that name. I've been named that spring to mind right there. So I read that H&M released 15,000 styles last year alone. She and release 6,000 styles a day. So if you think about how many items of clothing have to go through a sampling process to then get distributed, I mean she ends up vastly online but H&M have a lot of storefronts across the globe. They place all of those styles in those stores, probably not every style in every store but you get the idea. Ultimately they're guessing what's going to land and you can trend forecast of course you can. But if it doesn't land, it gets discounted. If that doesn't sell then it goes straight to landfill. So we read a stat recently that 70% of waste comes from upstream production which in layman's terms basically means before it's even got into the consumer's hands. So that's from producing the materials, that's from dying it, that's from the production output. But also this vast number of clothing that's getting made that never ends up going to someone is getting discounted and go straight to landfill. So it's absolutely mental. And we sort of had a long hard think about how we could make a big impact and there's lots of different ways you can be sustainable, you can use sustainable materials and that's good and we should all be trying to strive to do that. But if you're still making hundreds of thousands of items, even if it's got the most sustainable material, it doesn't matter because it's going to land for us. So the whole thing is pointless to end up being a green washing exercise unless it's done properly. And we quite quickly realised that where we could make the biggest impact was changing the way that we consume clothes. So that led to this idea of this made to water model, to only make exactly what you need and try and reinstall this ethos that patients is a virtue. Good things come to those that wait and that by simply waiting for your clothes to be made, you're not having to sacrifice on price, quality, color choice, etc. but by the very inherent nature of the model, you're saving lots of clothing going to landfill. So it's a very easy, accessible way for people to be sustainable. It is, but it's such a brave kind of decision to run a business like that because we're of the, I think, we're probably all quite a similar age and we're of the age where everything is quite instant. You know, like this iPhone you have in your hand, like food, shopping, everything so quick. And what you're going to do is essentially a behavioural education shift. You know, you're asking people to completely step away from what we've been moving towards for the last 20 years and back to a more mindful approach to shopping, which is what we need to do, but it's a big task you've got in your hands. It's a big task and it will take time for that to happen. It's not going to be an overnight thing. But there's ways of going about it to show the consumer that it's better. And that like I said, you're not having to sacrifice something else that we do within our model, we call it the batch model experience where along those four to eight weeks that it takes for your suits to be made, will take you behind the scenes into the factory, show you who's making it, how it's made. It's a very transparent experience. And I hope is that when you do get your suit or you're clothing, you've got a much better understanding of what's gone into it and how it was made and therefore look after it better, wear it longer, value it more. But what you're offering is speaking to a consumer right now who's actually really hungry for something like that. These modern consumers, they're seeking out brands who share the same values as them. In fact, I think it was 72% of US shoppers admitted that that is more important than ever to them now. But on top of that, 76% say that supporting companies that are actually actively addressing global issues, help them feel like they're doing their part. So you're actually helping these consumers feel like they're also giving back to the planet. Did you feel like there was a gap in the market that was underserving consumers who already wanted this kind of more consciously minded retail experience? Or have you had to educate consumers to convert them to more mindful purchasing? I think it's largely the latter or at least our experience has as a young fashion brand with a modest marketing budget, etc. It has been an educational piece. And I think I always find it interesting, those statistics around 76% of people said they would rather support as a sustainable fashion brand like it. They said it. They say you would. We're finding that it's definitely not that high. When she is coming at you with that. It's just, unfortunately, it's not that I would probably have found myself in that 76% of people. But ultimately when it comes down to it, people care about how fast it's going to arrive with them so they can look the part immediately. That's what fashion is about, right? And ultimately we're just trying to slow that process down to show people that, as Sam said, patients is a virtue and that we can reward you. That's why that's kind of how we differentiate ourselves on this made toward a model is that people get a video from the factory every week seeing their clothes being made. And we hope as a consequence, seeing that process, you're going to care for the clothes a lot more when they do arrive with you. But this will take time. It's the more customers it's word of mouth, it's educational piece. I don't think people need educating or lecturing necessarily. It's just presenting an opportunity to shop more sustainably that is accessible from a price perspective, which we also really strive towards. I think also from a consumer perspective, consumers are starting to realise that shopping on a trend basis and buying cheap items of clothing that fall apart or then in season next year. Ultimately it's quite expensive, too it doesn't even feel very good about yourself because you've got a massive wardrobe of stuff and you might try and track it all on vintage and sell that 35 pound t-shirt for four quid and what's the point ultimately. And I think that's what people are starting to realise. So from a timing perspective, I think we're right on the precipice of things changing, of consumer habits changing, of people realising that there's a new way to shop that makes you feel better and saves you money in the long run. It's also potentially not just about changing those consumer behaviours. I think Caws Marketing probably has the opportunity or has the gravitas to lead real change. I think there was a start that was something like 62% of consumers believe that brands promoting social causes will actually help normalise important conversations about that change. You're driving that change hopefully with the communication that you're putting out there and the message that you're putting out there. Should it be your problem? Should it be your. you're kind of an issue to take on, no, probably not, but the statistics say that that is kind of helping drive this initiative. So it's bigger than just the consumer. We sit as an opportunity to sort of lead the way, and opportunities are a big word. And I'm seeing lots of me to order stuff from outside of fashion as well, starting to come to the forefront. So the movement started, we want to try and lead that and do it in a way that, like I said earlier, that you're not making a sacrifice that actually it's a benefit to wait for something. So talking about education piece and you know you are a starter, if you do have a modest marketing budget like you've mentioned, how are you using marketing to educate the consumer? Good question. Marketing is always a funny game isn't it because you don't know where. I know, just keep looking at it. You don't know where to best place your efforts when you're a small team. But we've found a lot of joy in authentic creative collaborations. And what I mean by that is, especially when you're a fashion brand, there's obviously you immediately think let's get our suits onto the right people and then it'll bring sales in and like a lot of fashion brands. And especially the big fast fashion houses will send loads of, for one of the better word, crap, two influences for them to promote. And it's not getting us anywhere. It's not authentic. And that's been going on for so long now that people have grown tired of it and it doesn't cut through the noise anymore. So we collaborate with inspirational creatives as what we call it. We're proud to align with Batch. So from musicians to chefs, to artists, where we collaborate on an authentic level. So we will go to them with our product and interview them about their life, their work. And whilst they're in a Batch suit and it's what the Batch suit represents. And I think that's something that we didn't quite touch on earlier. It's like, what does it mean to wear a Batch suit? And it's that you've decided to make a slightly more conscious decision with one of your shopping pieces. I heard somewhere that 35% of consumers who follow digital influences. So kind of the people that you're talking about on those social platforms were engaged with a cause due to a recommendation from an influencer. So you're not just selling your product, you're selling your mission as well. Which I think has, has such a greater return for you and also. All of us are so happy. Yeah. I think it's also about trying to build a lifestyle. Yeah. Not just a product. Yeah. So it's all well and good having a nice product. But like Julian said, was it stand for, we wanted it to stand for more than just a suit. And what's the lifestyle that someone that would wear our suit? We found our biggest returns from reaching out to people that aren't in the fashion world that are outside of the fashion world that represent what we think people that wear our suit should represent as well. Where do you eat? Where do you shop? Who do you work with? What influences. We worked with chef called Gazzakli. We worked with a designer called Kelliana. We worked with a tattoo artist called Delf. Do you want to work with a marketing specialist? Musician. Musician. Absolutely. Musician Jordan Macampe, comedian Henry Rowley. So lots of different people in different walks of life that can have an influence and have a big authentic genuine following that we're able to capture. And a wide audience as well. And some of the stuff that they're not there audience aren't used to seeing necessarily. We bring up that word authentic quite a bit in this room actually. Because it is for lack of a better term of buzzword. But it's something you can't, there's no other word that really describes it. An authenticity is something that. It's hard to pull off as well, right? Yes, so true. And that's that cause marketing. You see a lot of you mentioned greenwashing. You see a lot of these kind of bigger companies saying, "Oh, you know, we do X for a while." Anti-sumptories. Yeah, exactly. But cause marketing shouldn't be an inauthentic kind of sales tactic, which a lot of these brands use it for. And it shouldn't be used just to attract more modern conscious consumers. They can see through it. And there are a lot of Saviournau and 56% of consumers think that too many brands are using social issues as a marketing point, which is a trotus. But what it sounds like is you're putting this. You're putting this issue in front of the right people using the right people. And you're doing it for that mission. You're not just doing it to make sales. Yeah, well, an authenticity is, like you said, is a funny word. Because when you're using it from a marketing perspective, when you're marketing something, you're ultimately selling it, right? And that's. So you're trying to convince people to get on board with your mission. So doing that in an authentic way is really difficult. And it is a bit of a buzzword, but there's a lot of gravitas behind it. And if you do it right, it can provide a lot of substance behind what you're trying to achieve. And I think it's authenticity and transparency, go hand in hand together. So if you can find a way of doing both of these things and selling your product at the same time, I think it's quite a nice formula. Well, I feel like I'm chucking a lot of stats that you guys today, but this is something that actually brought up so many interesting kind of statistics. When we were researching this, 78% of consumers think it's crucial that brands do more than just turn a profit. That they should also have a positive impact on society. And it's getting to this stage where obviously profit is something that drives a lot of these brands. But consumers are actually now reaching a point where they just naturally expect brands to have these values and these qualities and. It's gorgeous. And it's nice. Yeah. Very portraits would call it. Yes, true. And it's expected now to the point where I think actually a lot of people are now looking less for it when they were maybe about five years ago, really looking for those brands that were adding value. Now it's become such a common thing. And I call it a hygiene factor. Yeah. Like every business needs to have good hygiene and that comes across everything that you have in your corporate social responsibility for environmental or to the people you work with, how you present yourself as founders or business representatives. But I think consumers now want you to go to the next step. Like that's the baseline. And so it should be. And I'm really happy we've got to that stage. Yeah. But with that a really strong, important why and a reason for being around an emission behind what you're doing, it's easy to try and communicate. It's very difficult to break through the noise. Just kind of looking at that communication then. And also operating ethically. How do you think you can communicate as a fashion brand, trends and push product without going against those ideals? I think it's an interesting one because the way that we run our business is not in line with trends. Yeah. So the products that we create are not designed to be a trend. We're almost developing a new market hit in this sense of a casual suit. It doesn't really exist. But the beauty about the products and the way that we develop our new products of which there are more to come. We just released a headscarf, which is very exciting. But everything that we do when we're going through that process is around what's going to last for a long time. What's going to stand the test of time? What's not trend based? What's something that you can use to complement other things that you have on your wardrobe. So you can keep up with trends. It's important consumers are always going to want to do that. So we designed a suit in a way that you could dress up. Just a smart dress it down to the casual. You could change your styling of your shoes. You could add an ex-carf. You could change your jewelry or whatever it might be. And keep up with the trends and still feel relevant and still feel fresh. But you've got this capsule item on your wardrobe that you keep coming back to that. You know it's going to make you look at the part and feel like you've got a constantly updated Instagram or whatever. We're always trying to achieve. So something I have seen on your marketing actions that last month you announced that all of your suits would now be manufactured in Britain. Can you share what the term 'made in Britain' means to you and why you decided to shift production out of Portugal and into the UK? Yep, great question. So manufacturing in the UK or London as we've landed on was always an ambition of ours since we started batch. We're called batch London. The suits are made for Londoners really at this moment in time. And the opportunity to manufacture closer to home often obviously is more sustainable from an AMR perspective. It reduces our carbon footprint. So first and foremost that was a big motivating factor. Secondly, the opportunity to support British craftsmanship was something that we were particularly keen on as well. To be fair, Portugal have a really rich textile history and fantastic suit making industry. Run with brilliant fantastic family factories and for batches one to three it worked incredibly well for us. And there was a beautiful story to tell there. We were super transparent throughout our time in Portugal. We filmed the batch model process from the factory in Portugal. So it wasn't an easy decision to move away from Portugal back to London but because of the way that we filmed the batch model where customers get a weekly update from the factory of the suits being made, have been able to be closer to production was a really big factor for us. So yeah, and it's great for the brand too, right? Yeah, I mean. Designed in London made in London. Not many brands can say that. No, it's true. Ultimately you do end up. Most brands do move to Europe or further a field. So you know, we're proud to be able to say that we're made in London now. What have been some of your greatest challenges from a sustainability and from a startup kind of business perspective so far? I think from a startup business perspective first, it's the challenge is always getting in front of more people. Yeah. You guys know that's what you do. That is the key. I think there is a huge network of people out there that want to shop more sustainably, that want to buy into these new things. But it's a noisy old world. You know, there's the goodness how many brands starting a business has become a lot easier. In many ways, there's the access to information and some of the schemes that I mean, our government particularly is very good at supporting small businesses. So as a result, you've got countless products, countless noise. Everyone's trying to do a lot of. the same thing and talk to a lot of the same people and breaking through that is difficult and it does take time. So that is always a challenge is to reach more people. Otherwise we quite lucky we both came from start up background. So we'd been through a lot of that process before and kind of knew how to get started. From a sustainability perspective, the challenge is trying to do everything at once. So you have to pick your battles. Otherwise you just end up with a product that is so expensive that no one can buy into it and actually if it's not accessible how much of an impact are you having. So for us we landed on, okay here's a good example, when we were choosing what material to use. We had the option to go for 100% cotton or 90% cotton and 2% elastane. When you add elastane it makes it much more difficult to recycle the product that you're using because you have to strip the fibers and break it down from elastane to cotton before you can recycle it. And we had a long hard thing contendently and realised that while we trying to create an item of clearing that you're looking to recycle, why don't we try and create something that lasts for a really really long time that you can hand down. So yeah that elastane becomes more durable but then you're fighting that battle of trying to communicate that and make that heard and understood. So there are a lot of challenges but I think we've overcome a lot of them so far. Our next big stage for us is to get the products in the brand in front of more people. Yeah I mean it's a hard one and I think the fashion industry in particular gets about rep you know earth.org calls fashion out as one of the most polluting industries in the world and there's all these terrible stats like 100 billion garments that produced every year and 19, 2 million tons are end up in landfill and I think there's a widely held idea that luxury fashion doesn't contribute to the climate crisis as great as you know fast fashion brands that we've mentioned do. And that's a good perception is facilitated both by the luxury brands themselves and by European policy makers. What would you say to the bigger luxury brands about how they could make their manufacturing processes more sustainable? Do you have any advice? I think there's a couple of points on that. Firstly like yes the fashion industry is massively polluted compared to lots of other industries but every single person in the world consumes fashion whereas there's other industries and other products that it's a small fraction of the population. So it's important to recognise that when we're talking about this. From a luxury standpoint you know producing more stuff is inherently unsustainable so that is always going to be a battle hard for but I think it's like how can we show people that buying better and buying less is the way forward we're not going to suddenly turn off the tap of consumers and overnight. It doesn't work like that. People still want new stuff and makes you feel good. It gives you that feeling of you know I look great and I've got a new thing and that's big dopamine here but how can we make it so that as I said we buy better. I think that's the challenge that's what we're trying to communicate and then alongside that for the items that you do have how can you make it easy for people to resell it, to recycle it, to fix it. So I think that's another big play that particularly luxury brands can have rather than always pushing people to buy another new item from their range, how can they integrate what they already have and do more with it. Their breed is just partner with vestier collective haven't they? Yeah I think that kind of stuff is getting more and more important. The big fashion houses just need to take more responsibility don't they for reacting change and it's almost ironic that it's sad when I sat here with a 18 year old month business and where the ones that are shouting that something needs to change, it needs to come from the top down ultimately. But they're all owned by people. Yeah well of course we understand why we understand why not and lots of the big brands are moving towards more sustainable practices and things are going in the right direction but it's knowingly a drastic enough that the change that's needed really is a. No it's just hard. I mean historically luxury inherited brands have used messaging in their marketing efforts that champions their craftsmen's ship like you've been saying making things you know durable rather than recyclable and a champion that quality and that subsequent longevity. But maybe why the resell market for luxury goods through the lights of SDA and actually as you mentioned for example and the higher market as well through platforms like her are heroing vintage and pre-owned luxury pieces with the message centered around waste reduction. In contrast if you saw a primark or a pretty little thing I'm not I'm not throwing shade here, piece crop up for rent or resale it likely wouldn't draw the same kind of interest. So what in your mind differentiates the luxury houses from the fast fashion brands is it that craftsmanship and that quality vital is it more about brand and where a perception do you think? I think it's a fine balance of both of those things really isn't it anybody that knows anything about clothing and fashion and how clothes are made or products for that matter no and understand the quality that's gone into it at every level whether it's like a expensive product handbag or a really nice act X-co you know these things have had time and effort and money put into building them so the quality is there but then the trade offers the perception right people want to be wearing these brands and what does it mean to wear these brands so I think it's a fine balance of both those two things really. There's a fear there as well that this kind of quiet luxury movement is going to is going to lead to people buying fast fashion more in theory you know the owners or the impression of wearing branded items is becoming less and less necessary in today's culture does that mean that a lot more people are going to be buying from the likes of the sheans? From a resale perspective the issue is you can't resale stuff that was already super cheap right? Yeah like anything from prime I like your average piece 10 to 20 pounds maybe you can't really resale that there's not a market for it unfortunately so where does it go after the person who bought it on a whim or spontaneous decision decides they don't want to wear it anymore can't sell it right? Yeah I think the way that we talk about sustainability and fashion that we're not massive tree huggers we're not super green heads it's kind of we use the analogy of like veganism and meat eating right it's not that accessible for people to go from having meat integrated all throughout their diet to cutting it out completely that's not what we're telling people to do it so why don't you start your sustainable fashion journey if you need to supplement that with some cheap items of clothing because that's where you can afford or that's where you just want to you know dip your turn of water then do it but start somewhere because if you don't start then you're never going to you're never going to grow into it. It's okay to consume clothes like you shouldn't be shaming people for wanting like a really nice new coat like just buy better buy less and then just shop more consciously where you can like ultimately that's why we created about try and site it's an opportunity to try shopping more sustainably it isn't like you need to shop sustainably right now because no one's asking for people to do that right we should all just try and shop a little bit more consciously. Do you think that the waste that comes direct from brands is a bigger issue than waste that comes from shoppers? It's got to be from both angles yeah like you can't isolate one from the other and consumers drive brands to change but brands also need to drive consumers to change and both things need to happen simultaneously because one without the other goes nowhere. You say that but there's a start here that 15 to 45 billion items of clothing are made but never sold each year as does annually up to 45 billion items of clothing and this must be a financial hit for a lot of the brands overstocking these items or you'd or you'd think so so with that in mind there's got to be bonus benefits commercially for you both as a result of the stance that you've taken so beyond the overarching brand mission presumably with that the batch business model allows you to dodge those issues around overstocking or the need to reduce retail prices and essentially devalue the product to shift potential leftover stock. Yeah I mean that's the beauty of the batch model from a business perspective is our suits if you were to hold stock and manufacture them in a traditional way would cost between 800 to 1000 for the sort of average fashion markup we can sell them for 3.95 and still make good profit that allows us to keep growing this idea and this mission and people feel like it's nicer to wear like they made this for me this I waited for this I was excited about this it's like the painter jacket I'm assuming you've heard of them where you know they kind of instill this this FOMO and this and this and building of anticipation for a lot of their consumers for a product that drops and is gone sort of the next day and it's a great USP to have right now it's something that's different you know you could have anything that you wanted any time of any day online at the moment but kind of coming through with this difference in or this point of difference for a retailer it's just something really exciting for them it makes feel a lot more special yeah I mean if you look at the high street over the summer we've got shop in Spitalfield and there's lots of other fashion retailers around there and the biggest this count I saw was a 75% off the whole range and the smallest was a 50% off so like you can't operate a business like that no my genuine belief is this made to order model will grow because it has to we're running out of resources and brands are running out of money yeah I've got a difficult question for you actually because while we've been sort of learning about you guys this week in preparation for for this week's episode it's made me think about this old proverb that I heard years ago it might not have even been a proverb but it's really stuck in my head and it loosely explains that those who are privileged enough to be able to afford higher quality goods end up paying less long term because they don't need to replace them as often and you kind of touched upon this early on the The proverb is a worker who needs tools for their job will buy cheap ones out of necessity. and we'll do so multiple times throughout their career, whereas a worker who earns more can invest in higher quality tools from the get-go and may never need to replace them, subsequently costing them a lot less than the other worker at the end of their career. So do you believe companies allowing the buy now pay later schemes from the likes of Clana, for example, are actually going to have a positive effect on mass consumption by enabling consumers to buy better quality goods and spread the cost? Should I kick us off on that one? Yeah, of course. It's a big one. I think, like, top level payment systems like Clana are going to exploit a lot of people, unfortunately, because of the fast fashion model and the need to look all the time and have the newest thing, it facilitates the opportunity to be able to afford stuff right, and people will buy stuff on Clana and send it back because they have no money to come out of their bank account right. So it's facilitating a lot of troubling issues within the fashion industry, I think, on a personal level for me, I haven't got any issues with Clana and I often like to split my payments out over several months in order to be able to pay for nicer things, like buying to this idea of which I've been better at recently, it's like buying better for spending less often, and Clana enables me to do that with a reasonable disposable income a month, but I want something nice, I'm able to do it. I think there's two sides to the coin, I can certainly see the negative elements of Clana, but what's something that you reckon with? I think it's like you've got to split it, the buy and out pay later, really bad. It's just fueling this return culture where you just buy loads and loads of stuff, work out if it fits you if you like it, and then you send back everything but one item or sometimes all items, but we're talking about a fast fashion in some of these lower price goods, a lot of the items that get sent back to she in, for example, it's more expensive for them to reprocess it, repack it, and put it back on shelves than it is to throw it away. So from that perspective, really bad, from the splitting payments, it's not for everyone, some people are not very good at managing their money, if you're quite good and you're budgeted well, then yeah, it's great because it allows you to afford a higher price item. Ethics aside where you stand on kind of that, you know, Clana for fast fashion. This is an upside or a positive about the buy now pay later that's not really been explored or certainly through the press and things that I've seen. I've seen a lot of negative press around it, but this actually could be something that enables that change, it enables that kind of the purchasing of better quality goods for the better of the planet. So it is an interesting topic. I knew that would be a sponsor. But I mean, our ultimate goal as a business is to help as many consumers as possible have this opportunity to shop more sustainably. So whilst 395 pounds in the grand scheme of things in the fashion world is not expensive and it's not expensive for what we're selling, it's still quite a big upfront outgoing in a world where everything's got really, really expensive very quickly. So if this means we can enable people to buy into what we're doing and actually start to make that consumer change, those habit changes, then I, it is in the long run, people use clarinets for good things rather than. It works particularly well on our model to ride people away in six weeks for the suit to arrive. So if they can spread their payments over that period, then it clearly makes a lot of sense for us. You mentioned there as well the kind of issue with bullcaughtering and returning and that whole side of e-com. I guess it would be interesting to see how now that a lot of those brands are starting to charge for returns, whether that starts driving people back to the high streets, because especially for a brand like you, it's so focused on tailoring. I would imagine that that interaction with the product is quite important to people. Massively for what we're selling, you know, and the stage of business that we're at as well, takes a while to build consumer trust to buy something like that online and it might take seeing one of your friends wearing it to get the chance to fill the material with you using an amazing Italian cotton. It's probably the best asset that our suit has. And it's not until you get to touch it or feel it in person, you know, equally the way that we present ourselves from a marketing perspective. We built quite a cool brand and inverted comments. But as your day to day consumer, you look at a model that's perfectly styled and you go, "I don't look like that, so I can't pull that off." And that's feedback that we get a lot. And what we know from having people down to our shop is almost every person down to a team will put a suit on and quite quickly realise that it does kind of work on everyone and they can pull it off and that it's not that difficult to style. But again, there's a bit of separation in what you can communicate how you want to present yourself as a brand and how you can include as many people as possible. So I hope it does drive people back down to the high street, definitely. You've just teed us up for a whole other episode. Look at unpacked that one. So I guess the last thing we want to ask before we say goodbye is what's next for Bachelondon? Our big vision for Bachelors to be the go-to made toward a brand in the world. So suits and tailoring is where we've started ourselves at. But in the summer we're looking to introduce a linen range, a linen shirt and trousers. I mean, ultimately, once you've proven that people are willing to pay for something and wait for it for the betterment of the planet, there's no reason why you can't launch other products within your Bachelondon. I think ultimately that's how we will scale Bachels. Suites in an enormous industry, but clothing is bigger. And we can appeal to more customers faster having products that aren't worth 395. We could bring out a shirt in the summer that's worth £100 to £150. And suddenly the Bachelondon again becomes more accessible to more people. And we're hoping we're starting and we're at the forefront of this really important trend, which is shopping made to order. So I guess that's the short term and long term what we're hoping to move into. I'm sure you can add to that though mate. Yeah, 100%. I think we're sort of right at the start of our journey. We've taken lots of learnings from the last 18 months and we're ready to go and implement it. The next five months that are auto winter ranges on sale, we're driving as many people to come down to the shop and try a suit on. Feel it, meet us. We're always there. Unfortunately, all fortunately, even in the future. So yeah, we're just looking to meet as many people as possible. Get a suit as many people as possible and start the wheels turning to go and change the way we can tune. It's worthwhile. We'll just do a little plug whilst we have the opportunity there. I'll just elaborate on what Sam said. We host fitting consultations at our shop in Spittelfields market. So you can book in online to personal fitting consultations with Sam and I, where we explain what Bachelondon is about, our mission, what the product is about, and you get a real unique experience that you don't often get when you're out shopping as well. That sounds lovely. Well, the women's suits are going really well with these, so you get yourself booked in for a walk. We do a trip down to Spittelfields after this. It actually works really well with them, like 27 foot tall. So I can't buy clothes for me ever. This is good. I need that made to order stuff. You covered it, don't you? And where can people find you if they want to have a look at the suits that you guys make? Well, through socials, so we're at bachel.ldn on Insta. Our website is bachel.ldn.com. And then we've got a shop in Spittelfields market, so, short it's side of London and, like Julian said, we're always there. Why I think I said that. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, guys. It's been great. And, yeah, let's have you back to talk about the high streaks. It'd be like we could talk about that for a long time. Yeah, thank you. I'll start. Thank you very much for having us on and have to say great questions. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Good luck with the new batch. Thanks, guys. If you enjoyed this episode, follow us at Leap Intellectuary podcast on Instagram for updates on who we'll be speaking to next.