Basement: Daniel Whiteson | CERN, Dark Matter, and the Aliens Next Door

♪ Oh, oh, oh, O'Reilly ♪ - Check engine, ABS, or maintenance light on? Take the guesswork out of your warning lights with O'Reilly VeriScan. The service is free and provides a report with solutions verified by ASE-certified master technicians. And if you need help, we can recommend a shop for you. Ask for O'Reilly VeriScan today. ♪ Oh, oh, oh, O'Reilly ♪ ♪ Auto Parts ♪ - Today, I'm talking with Daniel Whiteson. He's a particle physicist at UC Irvine and an active researcher on CERN's Large Hadron Collider. Every 24 nanoseconds, his team smashes protons together and waits for the universe to show them something new. - Oh, CERN, huh? The place with the Shiva statue out front and the interdimensional portal out back. Oh yeah, I know the place. - His new book is called "Do Aliens Speak Physics?" And the question it asks is wild. "Is physics something" "we discovered or is it something we invented?" Because if it's invented, aliens might show up one day with a completely different version. And ours might be wrong, or at least incomplete. It's hard to explain in an intro, but it's pretty wild. We also get into some places I didn't expect to go, like what happens below the Planck scale. - Oh, below the Planck scale. That's where the lizard people keep the good stuff. - We also get into why dark matter might have its own version of the Higgs boson. And why a philosopher named Hartree-Field re-derived gravity without using numbers. No math. We also talked about how your phone is secretly a cosmic ray detector. And that's true. Daniel built an app. - Ah, you know who else built an app that tracks things from space? The NSA. But at least they had the decency to lie about it. Humans are such sheep. - Anyway, this was a lot of fun. - Jeep. - Let's go down to the basement. Hey, you can watch The Y Files on Spotify. New video episodes every Monday and Friday. And premium subscribers get fewer ads, which means fewer interruptions when things start getting weird. Daniel, welcome to the basement. Thank you very much for having me. So excited to talk to you about all of this crazy stuff in science. Me too. So, yeah, we're going to get to some of those baffling secrets of the universe. But here's what I really want to know. What is the secret to making a killer Nutella nut roll? Like, how did you become famous for that? A killer Nutella nut roll? I mean, I heard that you have a strong baking game. I do. On my CV, for example, I have a cookie recipe. You have, like, list of awards, papers. Favorite cookie recipe. I put that in there, actually, just to see if anybody's, like, reading that at all. And I'll sometimes get an email from somebody who's like, hey, I tried your recipe. It's pretty good. What is it? What's the cookie? It's chocolate chip oatmeal cookies with tahini. That's the key. That's the key? Absolutely. I love tahini. I'm a sucker for halva or anything with tahini in it. Sesame seeds. That's my kryptonite. We're going to try that. I always heard that baking is science. Yeah. It's chemistry, right? Yeah. There's transformations. Things change phase. It's incredible what happens there. And it's a great example of, like, emergence. You know, you see stuff happening on the bigger scale. Like, this dough turns into cookie. You don't know what's going on underneath the microscopic details of what's happening with all the baking powder and the vinegar or whatever. It's like magic to you, right? There's some microscopic detail, and then, boom, it turns into a cookie. And you don't always have to know. You don't always have to care. But it's incredible you have this, like, experience on the macroscopic scale. And then there's, like, all this stuff happening underneath. Were you baking before you became a scientist? Or did you say, you know what? I've got an idea. I've got a sweet tooth. Okay. And I love gluten. Who doesn't? I've been baking forever. I know. Gluten is God's gift to humanity. Yeah. Another question that I need to know. What's your favorite? What's your favorite video game that you programmed? That I programmed. That you programmed. Didn't you? Yeah. You were a coder. I am a coder. I was a coder. I started programming in BASIC on a Commodore VIC-20, right? Same. You know, you had a tiny amount of RAM, and you stored your programs on cassette tapes. Yes. Yeah, I'm an OG programmer. I remember when my dad brought home our first computer, transformational for me. And, yeah, you know, I wrote Tic-Tac-Toe was my first game. Okay. First, you write the two-player version, and then you're like, hmm, I want to play against the computer. How can I program a little bit of computer intelligence in there? What is the strategy for Tic-Tac-Toe? Did you, so you used, like, ASCII characters? Yeah. Refresh the page. Uh-huh. Refresh the page is CHR$147, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, and eventually you realize, wow, Tic-Tac-Toe is not that complicated a game. You can beat a computer, you can write a computer player that's unbeatable, that can't be beaten. And then you get interested in, like, deeper games. You know, write checkers, write chess. Those are really hard. Now, hold on a second. I've got to challenge you, because Whopper, didn't Whopper tell us that there is no winner to Tic-Tac-Toe? Do you know what I'm talking about? Whopper, isn't that the game show on TV? No, that was the big computer in war games. Oh, right. Remember, we're the only. Shall we play a game? Yes, the only strategy is not to play. Yeah, that's right, yeah. Everybody loses in global thermonuclear war. Thermonuclear war. Yes, it does. I still believe that one, yes. It does. But if you play Tic-Tac-Toe right, you should get a draw every time. Right. And that was something I only discovered by writing a computer player that I couldn't beat, which was pretty cool. Vic20, when I'm talking to other. Can I call you a nerd? Yes, I'm a proud nerd, absolutely. When I'm talking to other nerds, we always have this competition about who started at the lowest baud rate. Lowest baud rate when you first connect. When you first dialed up to CompuServer BBSs, what's your lowest baud rate? Let me see. Yeah, I ran a BBS, actually. You did? Out of my home, yes. Nope. I had one on my computer. On mom's phone line? On mom's phone line. We racked up a bill. We had a second phone line, actually. Wow. You know, and we had people all over the country, all over the world contributing. It was a lot of fun. I was so enamored. That was, you know, this is well before internet. Oh, yeah. Internet in your house, right? This is everything is dial up. And so, I think it was 14. 14.4 kilobaud was my slowest. That was your slowest? Yeah. Oh, boy. I go back to 150 baud. Wow. But I'm a lot older than you. I'm in the presence of a sysop. That's amazing. Yeah. What got you started in that? Because, I mean, VIC-20 is, I think that came out in 81 or close to it. What got you started in computers that early? Yeah, well, my dad was working at the lab in Los Alamos. So, I grew up in northern New Mexico. He was working at Los Alamos? Yeah, absolutely. In the early 80s. I have questions that I probably can't ask. And I probably can't answer. Was he doing secret stuff for the government? Yeah, he had a queue clearance and so did my mom. And both of them worked at the lab. And I never saw their offices. I don't know what they worked on. They were always behind the fence. Wow. Yeah, absolutely. They never told you anything? I mean, not classified. I mean, what did they say they were doing there? Well, I knew my mom was working on, sorry, I know my mom was working on nuclear non-proliferation stuff very generally. And my dad, I had no idea. He actually went out to the test sites in Nevada sometimes. So, he was working on definitely weapons-related stuff. But that's one reason why when I got into physics, I decided to work on something that could not be turned into a weapon. Like, as far as I know, nothing we develop at CERN could be used to kill anybody. Because, you know, developing weapons of mass destruction and pointing them at people, pointing them at civilian populations, I respect that my parents worked on that. Sure. Somebody has to do it. But it's morally complicated, you know? It is. I wish we didn't mess with that at all. Yeah. But they came to it from a funny path because they actually met in Israel when they were Orthodox Jews. My father was a rabbi originally. And then he lost his faith. And we moved to the U.S. And he went back to school, became an engineer. And then we went to the lab. And so, he was around computers. My mom was around computers. And they brought one home. And I started playing with it and got hooked. You know, the power of this thing. And you could connect to people from around the world. It's intoxicating. It's intoxicating. Yeah. Oh, my God. It's a very similar experience. I think I ran into a computer at a furniture store. And they were using it as a prop. Wow. And they just let me sit there for hours. And I was like, Mom, I need to have one of these. And it was a VIC-20. Then you go C-64. Then you meet with a 5.5. That's how he did that. You had to go Commodore 64, right? Eventually, yeah. We upgraded it. And then we got a PC, of course. Of course. Commodore 64, when you got that, that floppy drive, which was the 1541, was it just like, how do we even fill this thing? Right. I know this is so easy. Now you have all this Ram and you can write all this stuff to disc and yeah, everything became so easy. But, um, you know, every, every time we upgrade our computers, we create more possibility for what we can do. Uh, and there's never a limit, you know, no matter how powerful our computers are, somebody is going to think of something which requires more computing and it gives us more power to explore the universe. It's incredible to me now, how much of what we do at CERN, for example, is powered by computers. We just could not do it without computers. It's, it's in everything we do. It's enabled so much of what we understand about the universe. And you're writing, you, you're writing code there, which you, I think you said you enjoy doing. I do. Yeah. I have a big research group, you know, people under me carrying out the details. The research, but there's always one project where I'm the one writing the code, making the plots, uh, you know, responsible for the progress because that's why I got into this, you know, not to like manage a group and, uh, and do spreadsheets, but like investigate the universe and be there at the moment when you get to ask the question and hear the answer. I never want to give that up. So I think most people understand how, um, particle acceleration works. You smash them together. Yeah. That reminds me, they're smashing atoms together. As a kid, weren't you smashing rocks together? You were doing, you were doing this for a long time, weren't you? Yeah, absolutely. Tell, could you tell me that was when you were a kid, right? Yeah. When I was a kid, I was wondering, you know, what is everything made out of? You know, you take two rocks, you smash them together. What do you get? You get smaller rocks. Yes. Cool. Smash those together. What do you get? Smaller rocks. And I'm wondering how long can you do this for? Right? You, you wouldn't play it over the only ones. Yeah. Well, at some point you just keep, getting smaller and smaller rocks or at some point is it stopped being a rock and it's something else. Right. And, and I just was where my brain goes, you know, I'm, I'm more interested in like the foundational fundamental questions of, uh, of things because it, to me, it sets like the context of our lives and why everything is this certain way. And so I wanted to get down to the nitty gritty. Yeah. From a very early age. And so to me, the large Hadron collider is like the ultimate rock smasher. Of course. So you've always been interested in the building blocks. Oh yeah. Before you even knew what they were. Yeah. That's really interesting. And I feel like everybody has a question, a question where if you could speak to an Oracle or to God or to advanced aliens and they give you one, one opportunity to learn something about the universe, everybody has a question that they want to know the answer to. And it's different. The marvelous thing about human curiosity is that everybody has their own question. You know, that's why some people are working at particle colliders because I want to know what's the smallest thing. And other people are. Building telescopes to look for aliens because they want to know, are we alone? Or somebody else is like sloshing through the rain forest, you know, trying to understand how spiders make their webs or whatever. Human curiosity is so varied and powerful and it's in everybody. That diversity is very important. Very important. Then what's your question? Yeah. My question is what is everything made out of, right? Fundamentally, what defines the building blocks of the universe? Is there a lowest level, you know, like a firmament? From which everything bubbles up? Or does it go on forever? Ooh, we'll get into that a little bit in more detail later. But are you talking like, you sit there and go, maybe there's something smaller than the Planck number? Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. I think the Planck number is widely misunderstood. Okay. People talk about the Planck scale. Yes. Like it's, you know, the resolution of the universe. You know, what is the Planck scale? You take a bunch of constants, you multiply them together, you get a distance. That's the Planck scale. It's like 10 to the minus 35 meters. What's true about the Planck scale, which is often said, is we can't know anything smaller than 10 to the minus 35 meters with our current understanding of physics. Ah. Okay. So what happens there is that we have two pillars of physics, quantum mechanics, which describes even little particles and how things move, and general relativity, which describes gravity and space and all that stuff. Mostly, they don't intersect because you're talking about big stuff for relativity or small stuff for quantum mechanics, right? Right. But at 10 to the minus 35 meters, you need both of them. And those two theories, we don't know how to get them to play well together. Like, there's no theory of quantum gravity that makes them come together in harmony. They disagree. They disagree about the nature of space, by the nature of time, about everything. So we have these two pillars of physics, and mostly they're fine, but sometimes they overlap. And at 10 to the minus 35 meters, we don't know how to proceed. Right. It doesn't mean that there's no explanation for what happens below 10 to the minus 35 meters, or that there can't ever be. It's just like the current horizon of our understanding. So you see people say, like, that's the pixel size of the universe. Yes. It's more like the limit beyond which we cannot predict with our current theories. But tomorrow, somebody makes string theory work or comes up with a new theory of quantum gravity that predicts past that point. Boom. Now we can see deeper into the history of the universe and into the very, very tiny. So it's not a fundamental limit at all of our understanding. It's a limit of our current theories, which of course are not the final story. Is that a common opinion among physicists? Or are you, because I've heard you say that we only understand 5% of physics. I don't know if every physicist likes that number, but in that 95%, is unified field theory in there? I mean, do your gut. Yeah. So there's a couple of questions there. I think that almost every physicist sees that the same way, but there's often a gap between the way physicists see their work and the way the public understands it. Uh, you know, the way like mass is misunderstood and black holes are misunderstood. The big bang is widely misunderstood and mis-explained. So I think that almost every physicist would agree with me that the plank scale is not a fundamental limit to our possibility of understanding. Um, I think that's pretty widely understood inside physics, though in popular science, it's not often described that way. And it frustrates me that there's this gap between our, what physics has revealed about the universe and how scientists think about and talk about it and how it's described and understood in popular science. Um, and that's unfortunate because I want people to know what is the real story. What are scientists thinking? Uh, and, and I respect that sometimes that has to be translated and sometimes those translations go wrong for good reasons and good intentions. Absolutely. It's hard to translate it. Um, but when there's that persistent gap, I feel like that's unfortunate because people are, are being not intentionally misled, but they're misunderstanding what we know and what we don't. That's why I encourage everybody to check out your podcast because you do you and Kelly do a great job of, of making this accessible. It's also super fun. Like you guys are funny. Yeah. Kelly's a great friend of mine. She's a great scientist. And it's just two people talking about science. And we talk about topics that she understands. And so I'm learning about biology and the history of cholera and talk about stuff that I understand. And so she's learning about particles and dark matter in space. And then the listeners get to learn about, you know, a huge variety of topics in science and I hope, uh, have a good time at the same time. So to get beyond, to get smaller than plank, is there an experimental way to do that? Is it is, or I don't know, look, you know, how they say there's no stupid questions today. You're going to get a lot of those. No, there are no stupid questions. That's a great question. It's an important question because you know, physics has more than one branch to it. It's got the theoretical side, like how could the universe work. And that's really important. And often we feel like the answers are there, but it's also got the experimental side, which is going out there to just ask the universe, Hey, show us how you work. But you know, that requires efforts. It requires cleverness. Sometimes people think all the smart guys are in theory, right? But the experimentalists have a different kind of cleverness. Because they have to force the universe to reveal the answers. You can't just sit on a rock and like, think your way to the understanding of the universe. The Greeks tried that right. Didn't make a lot of progress. Right. Um, you gotta force the universe to reveal it, which means coming up with clever situations where if the answer is a or B you'll get a different outcome, right? That's the whole idea of experimental physics is like, how do we force the universe to show us, but we're limited with our tools, right? And the frustrating thing about understanding general relativity in quantum, in quantum mechanics is that mostly it's hard to bring them near each other. So if we could see inside a black hole, we would know the answer to how do you unify, um, general relativity in quantum gravity and quantum mechanics. We can't see inside a black hole too bad. If we could see the early universe, we could as well, because the early universe had a stage where things were denser than the plank scale, the plank scale you can express as a distance or as a temperature. And so things were hotter than the plank temperature and a time as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So when you say the early universe, we know that big bang acceleration, everything happens. Are you talking about that first femptosecond, like before the, what happened right there? Right, exactly. So this is all related to what we were talking about earlier. And I think the big bang is deeply misunderstood. So let's be very careful about what we mean when we say the big bang and what we mean by like a certain time. So, you know, we know the universe is vast and it's pretty cold and it's pretty dilute, but when we look back in time by looking out into space and seeing how things looked we see it was denser so the universe is less dense now it's more dense in the past you rewind the clock what happens things get denser and denser and denser and denser and our theories work really really well predicting things when they get all the way up to a certain temperature or a certain density and that's the Planck scale that's the Planck temperature that's the big bang is the expansion of the universe from that Planck scale density which and going earlier that is another thing from that Planck scale density up till now that's the big bang the big bang is widely misunderstood as the universe began as a point in space and it exploded out into existing space that's what most people's impression of the big bang is and that's basically totally wrong sure widely described that way of course it's wrong because the big bang doesn't claim to just explain the origins of the universe it's not the beginning of time it says look we understand from this point forward how the universe expanded and cooled before that big question mark we don't know yeah that's part of speculative and there's lots of theories there we can dig into but that part we don't know so everything from Planck scale forward is the big bang before that question mark so we don't know how the universe began the big bang does not claim how the universe began it does not it's agnostic on that question and the other thing people don't understand is there was never a point in empty space the big bang was everywhere the whole universe was always filled with stuff so wait hold on hold on the whole universe is all you know the universe was there and I have to put there in quotes before the big bang so we don't know where all the stuff came from right there's some hot dense state 13.8 billion years ago unexplained I'm singing the theme now to big bang theory okay that the universe then expanded and became more diluted and more diluted and more diluted less dense right so the big bang is about density right now if the universe is infinite today and we don't know but let's say that it is then it was infinite then because you can't go from a finite universe to an infinite universe right so that means if we start with an infinite universe that's big and not very dense and we rewind the clock to an infinite universe that's dense it's an infinite universe filled with infinite matter it's an infinite big bang the big bang was everywhere it was not an explosion of a point out into empty space there was no empty space it's just all space is already filled with stuff now people listening are going to be like okay but where did that stuff come from right you can't just say we don't know and we're not just saying we don't know we're saying the big bang doesn't explain that it's not an infinitely dense point which exploded out into space lots of theories about where that stuff came from inflation etc but we don't know if there was a beginning we don't know if there was a beginning we don't know if there was a beginning we don't know if that goes on forever backwards in time we don't know what happened there and so when i say you know maybe the early universe can help us understand how to bring general relativity in harmony with quantum mechanics i say that we could just watch it you know if we can look and see what happened before the moment of the plank density then we could know and so that's hard right experimentally that's very very challenging of course i'm because i've heard everything from quantum foam to yeah in the beginning yeah so so where i mean if you if you had to we have we're going to do a lot of speculation today what what where do you go where do you lean yeah well we're going to know we're going to figure it we are we absolutely are i have confidence look humans are clever right and when we want to know when we are driven by our curiosity we're going to figure this stuff out and anybody anytime somebody tells you this is impossible to figure out like that just means we haven't been smart enough yet or the right kid hasn't been inspired yet we're going to figure this stuff out yet and and that's you know one reason why i want people to understand what we don't know about science because there's some kid out there who's thinking oh science is mostly figured out i'm going to go and be a rock star instead and like no i want that genius to come crack these problems to be inspired by the mysteries but you know we have a path forward already like the earliest thing we've seen in the universe is not from t equals zero the moment of plank density it's like four hundred thousand years later that's when the universe became transparent universe was hot and dense like the center of the sun so if you made a photon it just got reabsorbed right right like if you turned on a flashlight in the center of the sun it's not the beam is not going to get to earth right the sun is opaque the universe was opaque and then it became transparent and light created right at that moment when the universe became transparent is still around we can see it incredibly powerful scientifically tells us about the early universe and proves that there was dark matter already back then amazing but that's like four hundred thousand years after the point we're interested in how do we go deeper so the key is that the universe was opaque to light before that point right but you know the universe can be transparent to other stuff for example neutrinos neutrinos can pass right through the earth you know you there are neutrinos passing through my fingers right now like a trillion every second passed through my fingernails so the universe can they exceed the speed of light they can not they can't okay nothing cannot nothing can exceed the speed of light and they have a tiny little bit of mass so they move just below the speed of light okay yeah but they were flying around the early universe and the universe was transparent to neutrinos just like a second after this plank moment so if we could see neutrinos from the very early universe we could see four hundred thousand years earlier than we've ever seen before we could see the structure of the universe the shape of the universe what was going on was it foamy was it smooth were there purple no no that's exploration right we have ideas we have theories we can use you know our ideas to figure it out but the best part of science is when you're surprised yes when you ask the universe something and the answer is something nobody expected those are the reasons I got into science for those moments right when you're like what that's the way it works nobody expected that right and so you know my scientific dream is that kind of discovery uh when you when the universe tells you the answer and you're like that can't be it's impossible and yet it is which means us tiny little humans have to like change the way we think about the universe and and that's the power of experimental physics you know is that it's it's the it's our connection to reality um and we can go beyond neutrinos there are gravitational waves from the very early universe and the universe is mostly transparent sorry and the universe is yet mostly transparent to gravitational waves from very far beyond fractions of fractions of a second and people are looking for those people are looking for those neutrinos and they'll find them and so I think you know in the next years or decades we'll learn a lot more about the very very early universe and then people will have a better idea of how to go even beyond that to you know before the plank density and somebody out there is going to figure that out and we're going to learn how to unify quantum mechanics and general relativity and how the universe actually works you're confident that we'll get there I think we're going to get there I mean I don't know for sure uh I like to be optimistic I can't guarantee it there could be a limit to human cognition like maybe we're not smart enough but you know maybe the aliens will show up and they'll tell us um or maybe we'll stumble into it before they get here I kind of hope that we figured it out um I would love to be there for it but you know the rate of progress of scientific discovery and understanding is astounding it's just accelerating uh so I wouldn't bet against humanity let's see um the practical way to make that observation I mean what's the machine what what how does how do you how do you look back that far yeah so in terms of astronomy like you just need to look out into the universe neutrinos we are really hard to spot because if we say they they can pass through the whole Earth without interacting which means you know if we're transparent to neutrinos that they're invisible to us but they have a tiny chance of interacting so we have neutrino detectors essentially huge underground vats of liquid that are very very quiet and we wait for a neutrino to pass through and it kicked one of those atoms in a particular way so we can tell there was a neutrino there and these neutrinos from the very early universe are very hard to spot they're lower energy than the neutrinos like made by the sun so it's a challenge but it's an experimental challenge we just need to build like bigger neutrino telescopes these underground vats of liquid that can see neutrinos so they're sensitive to the very rare the very slow very quiet cosmic neutrino background and the same thing with gravitational waves you know we we have space telescopes that look for these signatures these ripples we have um you know detectors that look for gravitational waves we have even strung together stars we have a galaxy size gravitational wave detector built out of all the pulsars in the galaxy it's really an incredible piece of science built out of the pulsars okay just to quickly explain what a pulsar is because because they're those are amazing yeah and um when when talking about pulsars I start to feel like maybe we don't even understand time completely because because how quickly they rotate and all that so so so what are they and how do you use that to detect anything yeah so pulsars are neutron stars and you know Stars have a life cycle, they burn, fusion happens within them, eventually they use up their fuel, Sometimes, if they're big enough, they turn into black holes, or they turn into white dwarves. If they're not big enough to turn into a black hole, they can also turn into neutron stars, which are just a hot, dense clump of stuff spinning really, really fast. Really dense. You know, like a teaspoon of neutron star weighs an incredible amount. I don't have the number at my fingertips. It's super dense matter. Pulsars are a kind of neutron star that have a very strong beam of material shooting up from the poles. So neutron stars have a magnetic field. And the way that, like, we see the northern lights, this is particles from space that get funneled by our magnetic field up to the North Pole and down to the South Pole. Really cool. The inverse can also happen. If you're emitting a beam of particles, your magnetic field will turn that into a beam that comes from the North and the South Pole. And so if you have a neutron star, and it's spinning, and it's got a magnetic field that's not aligned with the spin of the neutron star, just like our magnetic field is not. If it's not perfectly aligned with how the Earth spins, then you have a beam, and that beam is sweeping through space, right? Because the neutron star is spinning, and the magnetic field is spinning, it's precessing. And sometimes it passes over the Earth. And so you get a blip of that beam, and then it goes away. Then you get a blip of the beam when it comes back around. So those are the pulses of a pulsar. And they're incredible because they're super-duper precise. Like, they rotate with an amazing regularity. Sometimes they take a second to spin, milliseconds. Millisecond pulsars are these incredibly fast-spinning stars that every millisecond we get a beep from them. And there's great stories about their discovery. You know, they saw them in the sky, and they thought, what is this thing beeping at us, right? Is this aliens? Are these the aliens? I think Tesla misunderstood a pulsar as a message at some point. Oh, okay, cool. So how do you use those to detect stuff? Yeah, so they are clocks. They're clocks out there in the universe. And gravitational waves are distortions in space and time. Right? They are ripples in space-time. And so if you have a gravitational wave passing through the universe, and it passes between you and the pulsar, it's going to affect the pattern of the pulses, right? You're going to see this blip, blip, blip, blip, blip. And one of them is going to be a little bit longer, and the other one is going to be a little bit shorter. So you can predict how a gravitational wave with a wavelength the size of the galaxy is going to affect how you see these incredible clocks that the universe has put everywhere. And so if you make really careful measurements, of all those pulsars, you can reverse engineer what happens to that gravitational wave. And they've recently seen this a few years ago, really incredible pulsar timing arrays. And like, this is what I mean by the ingenuity of experimental physicists. Like you can't just build a device the size of the galaxy to measure these things. You got to figure out what's out there and how do we use it to reveal the truth to us? That's brilliant. So brilliant stuff. So by, um, so since that worked, what did that mean? Why was that so important? What it means is that we learned that there are gravitational waves out there that are, you know, wavelength, the size of the galaxy, the gravitational wave detector we built on earth LIGO. It can see gravitational waves of a certain wavelength, but it can't see the really, really big ones. And that's the kind of thing that is going to tell us about the very early universe. So right now they're just seeing, oh, there are gravitational waves out there with huge wavelength. And it's, it's kind of a noisy environment because anytime anything in the universe moves, it makes a gravitational wave. Any acceleration, I wave my hand. That's a gravitational wave. Um, any black hole orbiting anything else that's a gravitational wave. So we've discovered the universe is kind of noisy in gravitational waves. There's a lot of shouting going on and we got to pick out exactly the voice that's telling us about the very, very early universe. And that's a challenge. And you know, it's, it's a needle in a haystack, but you know, I'm counting on humanity. I wish I was as optimistic, but that's fine. That's fine. Um, I want to get back to gravity in a second, you know, I would, every physicist's been more, but, uh, what's it like at CERN? What, I mean, you go in, you got your, your thermos, you punch your clock. I mean, like we all know what it is, but what's it like to just to be there and spend a day there? It is so exciting. It is the center of the world for particle physics. It's like the nerd capital of the world. Everybody is there and they're buzzing with excitement. You know, when the machine is running, you never know what day is going to be the day you make a discovery, right? Every day could be like, look what we saw in the data. Look what the universe delivered. Um, something I think a lot of people don't understand about the collisions at CERN is that we do the same experiment over and over again, right? It's two particles, very high energy smashing against each other. And every time we do it, every 24 nanoseconds, the universe. Decides what comes out every 24 nanoseconds, 24 nanoseconds, there's a collision. Okay. And quantum mechanics tells you that you can do the same experiment twice and get two different outcomes. I mean, essentially infinitely and get all you get all the app. That's right. That's exactly it. We don't know what the universe can do, but if we do the same experiment over and over again, eventually everything it can do is revealed to us. And that's what we want to know is like, what can happen when you smash two protons? Together, if you're thinking of photons is like little billiard balls and you think, well, I smash them together, then they're gonna bounce off at a certain angle. And the initial state determines the final state. That's classical physics, right? The initial state determines the final state, take the same shot and pool over and over again. If you're really precise, you get exactly the same outcome. But quantum mechanics says what's predicted, what's determined is not the outcome, but the probability of various outcomes, right? And that's how we explore the universe with collisions is that, you know, we're looking for things. That are really, really rare. Once a trillion, once a quadrillion collisions, and you do enough collisions. Eventually the universe will show you the rarest of rare things that it can make, you know, what's on its secret menu of what it can do. The things that I want to know, like, what is the smallest thing? What is everything made out of? What is the heaviest thing? And so it's exciting to be at CERN. It's also really fun. Like the cafeteria CERN is filled with people from all over the world. You hear like Italian and English and Japanese. And a Romanian and people are eating all sorts of weird foods and probably the best summer of my life I spent as a student at CERN when I was very, very young. Really? Yeah. Hanging out with a bunch of Italians who taught me Italian and how to cook and bake and make pizza and, you know, drinking with the Czechs. And it's, it's just a wonderful, wonderful place. It's open. It's collaborative. You know, CERN was built after World War II was an effort to like, Hey, let's connect scientists from around the world. So we're all humanizing each other and we're not like. Building weapons of mass destruction and point at each other. Right. It's all about peace and science and harmony. And, uh, you know, there's arguments for sure. And you also, it's fun to learn how different people argue. You know, when somebody from Italy tells, you know, it means something different from when somebody from Japan tells, you know, and you learn these things. Um, and it's fun to hear people argue in English and all sorts of different accents, you know, it's fun to argue with people about like, where do you put a comma in this paper? You know, don't get my wife started on the Oxford comma. Well, we have 5,000 authors in every paper, which means everybody gets to weigh in on the comma goes in. The comma goes out, the comma goes in, the comma goes out. It's comical, you know, um, but it's a lot of fun. It's really exciting. Every time I go to CERN, I'm just reinvigorated by the possibilities, you know, what we can learn about the universe. It's, it's incredible to me that we, we know how to find the secrets of the universe. We just have to go do it. You know, if. If you gave me a hundred billion dollars, I could build you a Collider that would reveal secrets of the universe. We just have to do it. We just have to decide. We built new space telescopes. We would see things in the early universe that would shock us. It would blow our minds. It's happened with every time we build the telescope, we see something that goes, what every time, right? And these things are cheap. I mean, on the scale of countries and GPs, so we just have to decide to do it and the universe is there and waiting for us. And then we decide we want to know its secrets. But Daniel, if we build all these colliders, how do we fund our wars? I mean, how do we, we have to, we have to choose. Oh my goodness. I don't think we have to choose. Actually, I don't think we have to. I think it's not a zero sum game. Agree. Every dollar we spend on science comes back to us twofold, tenfold, a thousand fold. It's a good investment. I believe in America. I believe in humanity. I believe in people. I believe in smarts. We should invest in ourselves by spending money on basic research. It's the best investment you can make. Honestly. And the more we learn about the universe, and I don't mean that as just a, as a fortune cookie. I mean, the more we actually learn, the fewer conflicts we're going to have. Yeah. Yeah. I hope so. I think, I hope that's true. I mean, I'm not a politician and I'm not a sociologist, but I do think that understanding the universe is something that brings us all together. We're all curious. We all want new answers. And I've worked with people from, I think 172 different countries and we're all just people. We're all just curious about the universe, right? Yeah. It definitely brings us together. How much data are we talking about? Every 24 nanoseconds, every 24 nanoseconds, we read out a hundred million channels of data about the collision. Wow. And so it's an enormous tsunami of data so much that we have to throw most of it away. There's the part of me that everyone sees. I'm Howie Mandel, the comedian. Apparently I know what funny is funny. He bought me a house, but I also know what isn't. funny. OCD. I've lived with OCD my entire life and people throw the term around like it's no big deal. But OCD is severe, often debilitating. It's a mental health condition that involves unrelented, unwanted thoughts that can make you question your character, your beliefs, even your safety. General therapy can help with some things, but for OCD, it can actually make things worse. That's why I want to tell you about NoCD. NoCD is the world's largest treatment provider for OCD and is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. They're licensed therapists specialized in ERP, the most effective treatment for OCD. If you think you might be struggling with OCD, go to nocd.com to book a free 15-minute call. They are here to help. Why do you throw it away? Because you already know what it is or because. It's too much to ever analyze. We couldn't effectively store it to tape and search it. And also most of it's boring. Like most of what happens. Sure. What happens when you collide protons is they bounce off each other and stay protons. Yawn. We've seen that a million times. So we're interested in the rare stuff. So we have a filter at the very, very early stage that decides keep it or kill it. And that makes downstream analysis much more efficient because you don't have to search through all the boring stuff to find the interesting stuff. But it means also we have to be smart about what we're keeping and what we're killing. That's actually what my team works on. And I found that super fun. You have to make this super fast decision and you don't have a lot of time to do a lot of really fantastic fancy calculations. It's kill it or keep it every 24 nanoseconds. So high-speed computing I thought was a really fun challenge. How do you know you're not throwing out the next Nobel Prize? Yeah. I mean, if we're talking. I'm assuming you're using machine learning or AI of some kind. Well, the very first stage is very simple. And then it gets more complex. And we're definitely using machine learning and AI. We don't know that we're not throwing away some, you know, treasure out with the garbage. But we do have some filters that just randomly select events. Let's just keep, you know, one out of a thousand randomly. So if there's something crazy that we didn't expect, we'll probably find it there. But we can't, we just can't keep all of it. It's just too much data. We're talking about petabytes and petabytes every day. It's insane how much data we produce. How do you, how do you train machine learning if you don't know what you're looking for? Yeah. This is a big question in machine learning and more broadly in artificial intelligence. It's a whole field called anomaly detection. How do you find something that's out of the ordinary if you don't know what you're looking for? Because that's what I want, right? I want to find the big surprise, the thing that makes us go, what is that even? And so we have techniques there. Anomaly detection says, well, let's learn to describe what's expected. And then we'll think about anything that's different from that. And so you train machine learning. You give it a bunch of examples. You say, here's the kind of thing we're expecting. Figure out how to think about that so that if we give you something you haven't seen before, you can flag it. And so what machine learning does is, for example, it takes all the things that, that it's, that you don't, or that you aren't interested in. And it learns to like transform that into some internal mathematical space and then transform it back. And it's really, becomes really good at doing that for the kind of things you've been training it for. And then when something new and weird comes, then that transformation fails. It's like, well, I don't know how to transform this there and back. And so it's just an example, but there's lots of ways that you can train machine learning to flag something unusual, but it's hard. And you never really know if there's something there that you've missed. It's doesn't, it's got to bother you a little bit, right? Like keeps me up at night and we, we might've thrown out the one thing we needed, but we don't know. But that's always the case because we always have to make decisions about what kind of thing to look for. You know, give you another example. When we analyze our data, we're looking for particles that come out of the collision and we expect particles to move in a certain way because they have electromagnetic charge and they have a magnetic field. And we can use our physics to say, okay, particles always move in this particular path, a helical path. And if you look at like pictures of collisions, you see particles whizzing out in these spirals, right? So, spirals are everywhere. And most of our software that looks for particles looks for spirals because we expect everything to move as a spiral. And is that what you're mostly analyzing is just the paths of the particles from the collision? That's what it is. Okay. Exactly. Because the thing we're looking for, like the Higgs boson or something else new, it only lasts very, very briefly, like 10 to the minus 23 seconds. So you never see it directly. You see what it turns into. So we like see the spirals, we see the particles and we say, okay, that looks like there was a Higgs boson there, but it's not like I can say, oh, here's the Higgs or here's a handful of them, or I got a bunch of them in a box, right? Right. We can only say that there probably were there based on the path of these particles. So figuring out the path of these particles is important, but we only tend to look for these spirals because that's what we know how to look for. So a couple of years ago, my team was like, well, could we look for other things? Could we look for things that are moving in some weird, unexpected way? And we've been training machine learning algorithms to do just that. To look for particles that don't move as a spiral that will move in some new weird way. And it's funny because it's hard for computers to find that. But if I showed you one, if I like found a collision that led to something, which moved in a weird way, your eyes would be like, oh, that's something what's that? Right. That's weird. Our eyes are very, very good at seeing patterns, but I can't like print out collisions every 24 nanoseconds and put them in front of my students and be like, find me the weird ones, right? We have to use computers to do that. That's because we need them because they're much more effective at this high speed, high volume data analysis. And so we're developing these algorithms to look for new weird non-spiral paths. And we're hoping when we run them on the data that they'll, they'll spit out something like, Hey, Daniel, look at this one. And then we'll get to see something exciting. So I'm working hard to try to sort of push the boundaries of what we can discover. But you never know what you're missing, right? Is there a mathematical model that shows that? The particle could move differently or are you violating? Cause you're, you're, you're, you're a rogue. You're a maverick. Is there a model that allows for that? There are a few models that do predict that to move, that predict weird paths. For example, a magnetic monopole particle that has like just a North or just a South. But my hope is that we find something that nobody predicted, right? I want to make the discovery that violates people's assumptions that, that, uh, makes them go, what? That's impossible. That means we're gonna have to tear up everything we knew. And like, yeah, that's the whole idea, right? So yeah, there are some predictions, but I'm not a fan of any of them. And I'm hoping we discover something that doesn't match to any predictions. That would be much more fun. Have you ever found anything that maybe isn't a, a huge discovery, but made you go, Whoa, I didn't see that coming. Have you been surprised anything in the data yet? Uh, we had a moment in the data about 10 years ago when we thought we had a discovery. We were looking at events and we saw a bump, right? And a bump is how you make a discovery, a little pile of collisions that all look very, very similar. And it was in a place we didn't expect at all. And I had tingles. I was like, oh my gosh, is this, have we, have we done it? And we spent six months cross-checking it. Is there a mistake? Did we miscalculate something? Are we re-biasing ourselves somehow? And there was nothing we could do to make this bump go away. And I started to believe, I thought, oh my gosh. And you know, this is big stuff, right? We could be discovering something that changes our understanding of the universe. I started to think like, wow, this is, you know, we're making history here. Um, but the problem is that we look at a lot of data. And so when you look at, you know, 10,000 different distributions of data, occasionally you're going to see one that looks weird. Just like if you try, you know, flipping a coin 10 times and you do that a thousand times, you're going to get some weird ones, right? Where you get lots and lots of heads. So we didn't know if we just like sifted through so many examples of data that we were just picking out the weirdest one or not. So we had to wait for no, for more fresh data. So we ran the collider a few more, you know, a couple more months and waited and then the bump went away. So it was just a random fluctuation, unfortunately. Now, something in my gut tells me a random fluctuation is not a thing. Yeah, it's not a thing. It's just, you know, uh, it's everything that happens that comes out of the collider is random. And sometimes they pile up in a weird, unusual way. Um, just like sometimes, you know, you flip a coin four or five times, you get four or five heads. It's right. Um, and that's what happened this time. So it was exciting, but it wasn't anything. It was disappointing. And, you know, we haven't discovered anything in the large hydrogen collider since the Higgs boson. We saw the Higgs in 2012. Uh, we've been looking ever since, but it's exploration just like when NASA lands on Mars and sends a new Rover, they don't know, are we going to find, you know, something weird under a rock or is it just going to be dust and rubble? It's exploration, right? Uh, we're pushing those horizons and I wish we had like 50 new particles to, to talk about that we discovered, but, uh, yeah, nothing so far. So all of this is about looking for accidents and you have a great story of the Becquerel story. If you wouldn't mind telling it, it's so interesting is that the, uh, and maybe I'm getting his name wrong. The, uh, the photo oh yeah Becquerel Becquerel yeah yeah this is one of my favorite stories about discovery in physics because it shows you that you just have to be paying attention and you don't know what the universe is gonna reveal to you Becquerel was the late 1800s and he was playing with uranium salts and at the time nobody knew what uranium was they didn't realize what it was doing it was something they put in glass to make it have cool colors like that's cool and he had a theory about uranium he thought that if you put it in the sunlight that it was gonna absorb energy from the Sun and that then you and then it was gonna emit that energy and you could see it on radioactive plates so he had this whole experiment plan where he was gonna put it out in the Sun in Paris and then put it next to radioactive plates and he'd need see the emission from the from the uranium salts but it was cloudy in Paris what and so he didn't get to do his experiment he put the uranium salts in a drawer with the radioactive plates and left for the weekend and when he came back for reasons I never understood he was like hmm let's develop these plates and see what's on them he didn't do the experiment he planned he he did some other thing he never expected to reveal anything and what he saw is oh the uranium salts are emitting they left a shadow on the radio act they left a shadow on the photographic plates huge surprise to him he was not expecting the uranium to emit without the sunlight right and only because it was cloudy in Paris that weekend did he do this and discover radiation from the uranium onto these plates and then he deduced oh this something coming out of this uranium and you know that's a happy accident he discovered I think actually just a few days before somebody in England made a similar discovery and he went from like doing the experiment analyzing the data to publishing it to you know later winning the Nobel Prize right but the whole exciting period was like a week long he just barely scooped his English his English rival so an amazing discovery and to me it's amazing because that could have been discovered earlier sure right that kicked off our whole understanding of quantum mechanics you know after that you have the Curie's and their exploration of radon their exploration of radium and you know understanding the atomic structure which led to all sorts of radical a miss radical new understanding of the nature of the universe but he could have done that 20 years earlier 30 years earlier right a hundred hundred years earlier and that would have changed the whole course of human history and our understanding of the nature of reality and that tells you that like a lot of the ways that we discover the universe are based on happenstance who happened to be in the right place at the right time and had the right idea or we're paying attention at the right moment and there's often these times when you discover something and then you think wait a second if that's true couldn't we have discovered this earlier and then you go back and you find the original data you're like oh yeah look there it is there's the data they just didn't realize it you know for example a Galileo discovered Neptune and he didn't even know it and you can go back and look in his log books and there is Neptune in this beautiful drawing for this own handwriting like oh that's Neptune he should have noticed right it took hundreds of years before other people figured out Neptune was there and it was a thing and that tells you that probably right now there is enough data there's evidence for some crazy new discovery we haven't made yet in experiments we've already done we just haven't figured it out yet and in a hundred years somebody's gonna look back and be like Daniel you could have won a Nobel Prize right if you had understood what you had right but it's hard when you're standing at the forefront of human ignorance to know like where do I go where do I look how do I figure this out it's easy when you look back at the history of science I mean like oh ABCDE because we tend to linearize it we tend tend to think of like the progression from where we were to where we are as like a single path but science is like constantly branching and exploring and we later pick the one path that brought us to this understanding but it's filled with scientists like going the wrong direction and playing around with stuff and nobody knows who's gonna be the one to like hit the jackpot right so what what do things look like today we have to play alternate unit alternate history let's say that happened a hundred years earlier yeah what what do Einstein and Bohr and Heisenberg and what so that's a hundred years ahead how where would we be now what would they have been working on yeah you know I wish I knew the easiest thing to say is that our understanding of the quantum realm would be a hundred years further advanced that'd be nice that's incredible like I'd love to leap over a hundred years but much more importantly it would mean that that generation of thinkers Einstein and those guys they would have grown up in a quantum world when Einstein was like learning science and when he was you know becoming a physicist he lived in a classical world right things were deterministic particles had trajectories there's a location and a velocity to everything that's the way he thought so his theory of general relativity is a classical one in that sense this classical is a funny word because sometimes we mean it to say like original and so he overthrew Newton which is sort of classical gravity and but his theory is classical in a quantum sense in that it's you know it insists that everything has a location and a time and that's the challenge for us now is to bring his gravity together with quantum mechanics but imagine if he had grown up in a quantum world where thinking in quantum mechanics was like not a new thing right maybe he was fluent in quantum mechanics would he have developed general relativity would he have built a classical theory of gravity or would he have already built a quantum theory of gravity I mean maybe the whole reason we're at this impasse is because we have these two different thrusts Einstein gives us relativity and you know Bohr and Schrodinger give us quantum mechanics and they started from different places and we can't reconcile them maybe if Einstein had been you know quantum Einstein he would have taken a different path and developed a different theory of relativity or gravity which was quantum in quantum compatible right so this whole hundred years of frustration we've had trying to bring these things together maybe we could have avoided that if a hundred years before Becquerel somebody had left uranium salts on a photographic yes that's all it would take um oh that leads me to something I really wanted to talk to you about can we talk um Kaluza Klein a little bit and you know Rendell Sundrum that's that's sort of thing yeah um boy and and you're working on Atlas so Atlas has been looking for gravitons right absolutely without success without success yeah and looking I think I think RS1 says there's three ways to prove gravitons exist if the particles exist and we're oh for three right yeah is the experiment wrong do we need more energy are they even there are the or are they in is ours one fifth dimension are they out there in compactified space maybe as Klein would have said yes so we can't see everything right the collider is limited some things are too rare some things are too massive right we have a certain amount of energy in our collision so we can make something on nature's menu if it has mass of a certain amount or below it to go bigger to go above that on the menu you need a bigger collider more energy so um so we know the gravitons are not anywhere that we could have seen them which means they're not below a certain mass or we would have seen them and they're not um above a certain Rarity or we would have made them and seen them so we can rule out low mass of very common very high production gravitons we can't rule out gravitons that are really really rare or gravitons that are really really massive and so if the universe is like five or seven dimensions there are definitely configurations where there could be gravitons and we couldn't see them because our experiment is limited so I can't see everything and that's frustrating and that's why you know I want to build a bigger Collider and I want more space telescopes and I want all of this stuff because it's frustrating to be limited in that way um but yeah we haven't seen them so far and and that's too bad it would be nicer if the universe was easier on us and had a bunch of discoveries waiting for us just past the threshold um but it it didn't play so nicely so I have a question that it maybe it's stupid but it's it's bothers me but before I ask it could you just catch everybody up in whatever terms you want what the hierarchy problem even is yeah so the hierarchy problem is one of those puzzles that tells us there's probably something that we're missing you know it's a scenario where our math requires a big coincidence to work and in time there's a coincidence it makes you wonder like is there a simpler explanation and the hierarchy problem essentially says that the Higgs boson the thing we discovered like 10 years ago should be really really massive because if you calculate how massive the Higgs boson should be there you have to add a bunch of terms and then you subtract a bunch of terms and those are really big numbers and because they depend on the Planck scale like the really the power of the universe and it seems very unlikely to add up a bunch of big numbers and then subtract away a bunch of big numbers and have them like almost perfectly cancel out so the Higgs mass is really really light compared to like the Planck scale you know it's like 125 times the mass of a proton whereas the Planck scale is up at like you know 10 15 20 orders of magnitude higher you know the scale at which like quantum gravity affects on and so it's weird that the higgs mass is so small that all these really big numbers somehow cancel out to give you a small number and is this also connected to the four fundamental forces strong weak electromagnetism and then gravity is this the same problem yeah the same problem we seem to live in a universe where um you know we seem to live in a universe that's where gravity is really really weak and everything else is much more powerful right the same separation right it's the same problem now why is that are these things so separated and so people wonder like well is there a reason is there like an explanation it's sort of like if you you know look at a coin and you say and you don't know that there's two sides of the same coin somebody shows you heads somebody shows you tails you're like it's weird they have the same shape and the same size it's a simple explanation is oh they're two sides of the same coin right it's just one thing not two separate things that happen to overlap they happen to have the same size and they're two sides of the same size so we're wondering if the hierarchy problem has a similar explanation like yes we add up a bunch of big numbers and then we subtract up a bunch of big numbers it's interesting they match almost perfectly maybe there's an explanation there maybe they're just two sides of the same coin and that's a simpler explanation so far all of our explanations for that have failed like our favorite explanation is called super symmetry and it says just that that all these numbers have to match all those numbers because there's a symmetry the universe demands it there's two sides of the same coin now i hate to do this but you have to explain a little bit super symmetry duality that sort of thing just just to catch us up sure and so all the numbers that make the higgs heavier come from its interactions with one kind of particle called bosons and all the interactions that make the higgs lighter come from its interactions with fermions so there's two kinds of particles in the universe bosons and fermions we're made of fermions um bosons are the particles that transmit energy like photons and the w and the z and the gluons and all this kind of stuff and so those are two very different kind of particles like photons and w's and z's don't match up with the fermions the electrons and muons quarks and this kind of stuff so how do you make those things match up how do you make it so these numbers all cancel those numbers well you just say well for every fermion there's a new boson we never never seen before and those two numbers match perfectly and for every boson there's a new fermion we've never seen before and those two numbers match perfectly so the ugly part is you have to double the number of particles you say every particle has some partner out there we've never seen before and their contributions to the higgs mass exactly cancel or almost exactly cancel and that's why the higgs has a low mass because you have the pluses and the minuses and they balance perfectly that's cool and it's exciting because it means wow there's so many particles to discover right and and this is like 25 years ago people thought okay there must be particles out there it's beautiful also the theorists love this idea sure because it's a fun playground there's so many new particles to play with and there's a beauty to it right there's an elegance to say oh this is only half of the story we're missing half of the story and there's history there there's lots of times in physics when we've had a similar situation and it's worked out like anti-particles oh it turns out we're made of one kind of matter that's just half of a symmetric thing the universe can do sure the universe can also do this anti-matter thing whoa that's crazy right or oh we have electrons there's another version of electrons called muons and another version called taus and that exists through every kind of fermion so it's not just like wild speculation to imagine the universe has these structures and these symmetries and these patterns for us to discover it was a good idea and it was worth exploring there was a lot of hype about it a lot of people like made overly strong bets about how we were going to discover it and we didn't find it it's just it's not there we look for it you know it's not there if it's there then it's very very massive you know in order for us to not have seen it these particles would have to be really really heavy and that unfortunately breaks the beautiful part of supersymmetry in order for these numbers to cancel out the masses have to be basically equal so supersymmetry could still be the law of the land it could be the way the universe works but it's really hard for it to actually solve the problem it was created to solve anymore right um and it's also the target of a lot of i think not well-informed criticism you know because it was a fun playground for people people developed whole research programs exploring supersymmetry and certainly there were a few guys out there making broad claims that they shouldn't have made and you know clickbait whatever we're definitely going to discover it i guarantee it or whatever but that's not the mainstream view everybody always knew hey this is an idea there were always other ideas other possible explanations for the universe and i think that's a really good idea and i think it's a really good idea for the hierarchy model and the experimentalists certainly never believed we were definitely going to discover it we thought hey this is one thing we should look for we should also look for the other things and the other things and we should be open to new things we didn't expect right it's a broad field lots of people investigating stuff so supersymmetry these days is a bit of a you know butt of the joke people laugh about it ha ha ha you thought it was going to be real but you know it was a good faith explanation for a big mystery a big question we had about the universe which remains unanswered we still don't know why is the higgs boson so low mass why is gravity so much weaker than the other forces you know it's it's not something we understand and it could just be hey that's just the way it is you know could be no good explanation i need to ask my stupid question and i'm sorry for it but it might connect to later so gravity's gravity's suit i don't know the numbers but what 10 to the negative 35th or something like that against electromagnetism yeah so we've got rs1 we've got the bulk extra dimensions space compactifies exponentially gravity originates from deep within there i guess the plank brain would be that that end point and gravity is super strong there and by the time it gets to us it's exhausted and weak what if there's an alien living you have to do it an alien living out there in the bulk okay and they have a hierarchy problem and i know the electromagnetism doesn't reach the bulk but their gravity's matches all their forces and then they have this issue with there's something out much lower we don't understand and it's a reverse hierarchy problem could that be a thing yeah absolutely yeah aliens could have started from a different part of this whole big puzzle right right and an amazing fantasy is that they show up they understand part of the other part and then it's like chocolate and peanut butter you know yes like we help each other out yes wow that would be a great day um but you know in that scenario aliens are living in like five-dimensional world uh and we're living in a three-dimensional sub-world that would be very challenging to communicate you know beings that don't share our space um because we'd only be able to interact with like a slice of them and they might not even be aware of us so that would be really challenging from the point of view of like hey let's get out and chalk board and talk about how these things work this is a great that was a perfect setup for our transition we'll take a quick break and come back with um the physics about our universe maybe the problem isn't our tools maybe the problem is us yeah see you in a minute so i heard you say um is the higgs real when nobody's looking i thought that was um so funny can you retell the story and kind of tell us why is higgs important everyone knows what god particle higgs boson everyone's heard of that good luck trying to explain it you know we don't know what that is or why it's important and that statement when nobody's looking that's wild yeah yeah so you know higgs boson a huge advance in particle physics we discovered it in 2012 i was predicted 50 years earlier and i love this story because it shows you the power of mathematics like this is predicted based just on mathematical symmetry you know peter higgs is looking at the way the forces are and he's wondering like well look electromagnetism is so similar to the weak force but also very very different like why if the structures are mathematically so similar why is the photon have no mass it could travel at light speed and the w and the z boson really massive very slow very short range why is there a difference here why is the symmetry broken and he was looking for a way for that symmetry to break and like what would require that to happen and he said well you know this actually would all work out perfectly if there was one more particle out there one more field and so you add that one piece and suddenly everything makes sense and that's cool but it's it's a math game right it says well look the math is nicer in this scenario um but is it real was the question and it's another example of like math leading us to discoveries because it turns out it is real it is how the universe keeps the photon from getting mass and getting the w and the z to have mass and that's incredible because it tells you that like there's real mathematics at the heart of the universe where you know it supports that argument i could also make the other argument we're going to talk about it yeah but um you know what is the higgs boson in the end it's the thing that that tells you that the particles we see are are not the universe's fundamental Like when you look at an electron, when we measure an electron in the light, lab what are we interacting with what are we measuring it's not just a pure electron it's an electron bound up with higgs bosons okay because an electron just moving through the universe would have no mass and would move at light speed just like a photon does but in a universe with the higgs boson in it it can't do that every step along the way there's a higgs field that's interacting with that electron you know it's like you try you trying to walk through a crowd of people and they're all like aj aj aj aj come stop talk to me right the same way you know we say that photons when they move through a material don't move at the speed of light right it's a little bit of a slate of hand because there's no time at which like there's a photon moving slower than the speed of light it's an effective description we say light is moving through the material as if it was moving slower than the speed of light what's really happening is you know it's being absorbed and emitted and absorbed and emitted it's interacting with the material and so that changes effectively how a photon moves there's no scenario in which the photon is actually moving slower than the speed of light the same way an electron moving through the universe it would move at light speed and have no mass but it interacts with the higgs boson and so we step back and we say well in a real electron the thing we measure in the laboratory is this thing this electron that's interacting with the higgs it's an effective description and so like a pure electron is this theoretical thing we never see the real electron is actually this like buzzing interplay between two fields the electron field and the higgs field which are very tightly coupled so that's why electrons that we measure have mass they don't really have mass in a pure sense but the electron we interact with that we see in the laboratory that is used to build me and you is this effective description or it's really happening is this an electron field and a higgs field tightly bound together and so that explains why electrons have mass and why w's and z's have mass and that's what was important about the higgs boson but it's part of our model it's our explanation for what we see out there in the universe it's powerful because it describes future experiments it describes what we see it accommodates the universe the question though is the higgs boson real that's a different question that asks you know is it the only way to describe the universe is it there when nobody's looking what do you mean by that i mean this is not a wave function collapse argument is it i mean is the higgs boson the map or is it the territory when we describe what's going to happen out there we use the higgs boson when the universe decides what to do what's going to happen in the universe is it using the higgs boson or is there something else going on in the universe's true description of reality right is this our effective description that works really really well or is it reality itself beyond our ability to to probe it and to think about it and ask questions and and this is a hard question to grapple with because it's not a science question it's a philosophy question i mean is the higgs boson real beyond our ability to test it beyond our ability to do experiments because obviously the experiments match up with the theory sure so scientifically yes it's part of our theory it works that's all good i mean is it there beyond that sense in some deeper philosophical sense that you can't probe with experiments but a more concrete way to ask that question is like well are there aliens out there doing science building up their own explanation from the universe do they have a higgs boson in their theory or have they found some other way to describe the same set of phenomena that they observe in their particle colliders right is there an alien higgs you know eating haggis and and doing all that stuff or is there is there not you know are there possibly other explanations because if there are that means that our explanation isn't necessarily true it could just be a map it's not necessarily the fundamental reality so doesn't there have to be more because of dark matter and dark energy so because we have no we don't know what that is right that's the placeholder yeah is that yeah does that tie into higgs is that maybe it's found in there somewhere maybe the aliens don't know what a higgs is but they they their dark matter energy is some other field yeah a lot of really fascinating ideas there it's true that we don't know what dark matter is and we can't explain it we don't know if it's made out of particles and what those particles are etc etc um that doesn't invalidate what we've learned about the universe right every experiment we've done about atoms our theory there works and you know it might not be fundamentally true it might be one of many options but that doesn't make it wrong it means it might have the wrong context it means that you know the way newton's theory worked for all the experiments they could do in their day but you know it wasn't the true story of the universe in a broader context einstein's description is better though who knows if einstein is right we may one day replace our theory of higgs with something else right and that doesn't mean that higgs was wrong it just means that you know it works under these circumstances but when you replace it with something else you also sometimes get to replace like the the backdrop the story about what's happening like think about what happens when you replace newton with einstein you don't just get better predictions for mercury and details about high-speed stuff you tell a different story about gravity that's true right what happens when somebody jumps off a building newton says there's an acceleration right gravity is a force there's an acceleration of the person who's coming down to earth einstein says no no person who jumps off a building experiences no acceleration and he's kind of right because if you took a scale with you you jumped off a building and you put that scale under your feet what would you measure nothing nothing zero that scale is an accelerometer right you're zero you feel no acceleration as you jump off a building why does it then seem like you're accelerating because the earth is accelerating upwards towards you so einstein says you measure an acceleration because you on the surface of the earth are in an accelerating frame so we can dig into that more if you like but the point is you don't just replace newton with einstein you tell a different story about reality and so it's possible someday in the future we have a different theory of particles that doesn't include the higgs and we're telling a different story the story i told you about electrons moving through the universe with higgs and whatever somebody on a future podcast could be telling a very different story about reality so absolutely and dark matter could be the key you know one thing we don't know about dark matter is where does it get its mass the electron gets its mass from the higgs right but anything that gets its mass from the higgs has to have a weak interaction has to interact via the weak force and so far it seems like dark matter doesn't feel the weak force which means it probably does not get its mass from the higgs right which means is there a dark higgs is there another particle that gives mass to dark matter maybe and you know dark matter there's more dark matter than normal matter right so if there's a dark higgs then it's the dominant way you get mass in the universe and our higgs is just like a little bit of the story right and so that could really help us understand like the bigger picture how particles get get mass and the whole context so you know i don't want people to go away thinking oh our theory the universe is wrong it describes what we've seen and it works really really well but philosophically we have no proof that it's the only description the unique description and we couldn't one day replace it with something better and deeper that works in a broader context to describe experiments we haven't done yet what's your gut tell you about dark matter my gut tells me that it's alien to us that it's something we have not even considered you know the idea that dark matter is a particle it's a fine starting place look everything we've ever seen is a particle why shouldn't dark matter be a particle sure all right we can start there but i wouldn't bet on that because everything we've ever seen is a tiny slice of the universe it's like you know you've been studying an elephant's tail for a thousand years and somebody says oh there's more to the end of the elephant are you gonna say oh the rest of the elephant is probably made out of tails like no it's not this is an opportunity to say oh the whole context of my understanding is wrong i need to like zoom out and think about other ways of things can come together this is an opportunity for a revolution in in physics so it's fine to start there and to say maybe dark matter is a particle and maybe it's just one particle we should look for that it's worth doing but to me the most likely thing is that it's something we can't even imagine it's something that's not a particle it's another kind of matter altogether right why should the whole universe follow the pattern of this tiny little slice of the universe that's made out of atoms that's just five percent of what the universe is more likely it's something very very different why isn't philosophy more tightly coupled with physics i don't understand that because inevitably you You have to. talk about philosophy, don't you? I mean, I know you do, but most physicists don't even want to go there. It's a great question. I think physics and philosophy are deeply intertwined, right? Philosophy is why physics is interesting. Imagine the day we get the answer to my question. Okay, we found the fundamental nature of the universe. It's these two things and everything bubbles out of that. We can explain everything, economics, string theory, pies, whatever, kittens from these two things. Then we'll have the philosophy question. Why these two things? Right. What does that mean about the universe when we've laid it bare and we've seen its fundamental nature? That's why it's interesting because of the philosophical questions. So they drive all of our science. But most physicists are not interested in or not educated about, I'm not sure which philosophy. And I think that historically it's been sort of dismissed. You know, you have like famous folks like Feynman saying physicists need philosophers the way like birds need ornithologists or something. And it's a clever quote, but I don't honestly even get it because I think birds could use ornithologists, you know, who doesn't want to understand the context of what you're doing and why it's important. So I think a lot of physicists, they're more mathy people. They're less humanities and philosophy is squishier. It's not so mathematical. You can argue by something in philosophy for literally a thousand years, make no progress, right? That's frustrating. And you could also never know who's right, right? Some of these questions in philosophy, there's no experiment you could do to settle them. There's no formula that tells you who's right. One of the reasons I got into physics is I really love the concrete nature of it. You know, like you do a problem, there's an answer, right? It's right or it's wrong. Not like, I didn't like your essay. I didn't like your story. It didn't really stick with me. I mean, you know this, you're in entertainment. Like it's fuzzy. Like is this novel good? Is my screenplay good? Is it bad? And nobody really knows, right? Mine are always bad, right? You can't really tell, but you can tell when your physics is right. Yes. You can tell when your experiment is telling you something new and that's satisfying and concrete and objective. I think a lot of physicists latch onto that and philosophy is hard to deal with from that perspective. And I think that a lot of physicists have strong opinions about philosophy while at the same time not taking philosophy seriously. Didn't they get into physics because of philosophy and didn't even know it? Yeah, maybe. Because they're asking questions. They're asking questions and they think things about philosophical questions. Like if you walk around CERN and you ask people, you think the Higgs is real? Of course it's real. What are you talking about? We discovered it right here. Like there's a Nobel prize for it. Are you crazy? Like what are you smoking and where can we get some? Because they think like we've discovered it, it's part of our model, we've proven that our model describes the universe, therefore it must be part of reality. And that leap, that step to say it's not just something we can predict, it's not just part of our model, it's there, it was there before us, right? Aliens will see it too. These are not scientific statements, they're philosophical statements. They are. And people have strong opinions about it. But they also think philosophy is, you know, a foolish waste of time. So one of the reasons I wrote my book is not just to educate people about these interesting philosophical questions, but other physicists that I hope will read it and be like, "Oh, these are interesting questions by smart people who have thought about it for hundreds of years." You know, maybe I should, you know, think about the broader context. I suspect that more physicists agree with you than admit it. What do you think? Could be. And I think the things are changing. You know, we've seen a sea change from folks thinking like questions at the heart of physics, like quantum foundations, you know, does the wave function collapse? What does that even mean? 50 years ago, people said, shut up and calculate, right? Who cares? Whatever. The calculations work. Why are you bothering me with these philosophical questions? That was the perspective. That was the prevailing wisdom. But, you know, now we have a lot of progress in quantum foundations, people working on many worlds and Bohmian mechanics and all sorts of stuff. And I think that's being respected now. And so I'm glad to see an opening of the field, people willing to dive into these philosophical questions at the heart of physics. And I hope to see more interaction between physics and philosophy departments. At UC Irvine, we have an amazing department of logic and philosophy of science. And we have guys who have PhDs in physics, sorry, staff with guys and girls who have PhDs in physics. They know what they're talking about. Sure. They're really smart folks with really interesting ideas. So a good response from a physicist on Higgs is, well, the math works. So. ♪ Oh, oh, oh, O'Reilly ♪ Check engine, ABS, or maintenance light on? The service is free and provided by O'Reilly Veriscan. Check engine, ABS, or maintenance light on? It provides a report with solutions verified by ASE-certified master technicians. And if you need help, we could recommend a shop for you. ♪ Oh, oh, oh, O'Reilly ♪ ♪ Auto Parts ♪ Can we do physics without math? Can we do physics without math? Yeah, I don't know. On one hand, you would think, gosh, you gotta have math to do physics. It's like asking, can Shakespeare write without language, without English, you know? It is the language of our science, and the example of Higgs is an example of math leading us to a discovery, right? Not just being useful, not just expressing our answers, but like pointing us in the right way. Follow your mathematical instincts, and the universe is mathematical, so you will make discoveries. And there's so many examples of that, right? You know, there's Maxwell. For example, he's putting together Gauss's Law and Ampere's Law, and he's using symmetries. He's like, hmm, let's figure out how we can write these things the same way. And that works, but he notices that there's a piece missing. He's like, this would be more symmetric. These equations would balance better if there was another piece, which we now call displacement current. He didn't know it existed. He just wrote it in there because the math told him to. He's like, oh, I can't resist adding this term. He's like, well, you know what, I'm just going to write it in there. He's like, you know what? I'm going to write it in there. He's going to write it in there. fields, right? Gravitational field, electromagnetic field. And they're actually at the heart of our explanation of the universe itself, right? These days we think about particles, but we don't think of them as the fundamental element of the universe. We think of them as ripples in fields and fields are the foundation. So we don't know this is the end story, but the current foundational picture of the universe is space time with a bunch of fields layered on top of it, right? Electrons, ripples, and electron fields, muons, ripples, and muon fields. Cool. And if you ask a physicist, are fields real? They'll say, yeah, of course. I mean, they're at the foundation of our calculation. The problem is nobody's ever seen a field, right? You've seen a field push on something. You've seen a field bend a particle. Those spirals we were talking about were charged particles moving through magnetic fields. You're not seeing the field. You're seeing the effect of the field. So some people think, well, maybe fields are not real. Maybe they're just a calculational tool. They're like an intermediate step in the calculation. Like if you want to calculate the force of gravity on something and you're using Newtonian gravity, you can just calculate all the forces at all times. Or you could say, look, I have this thing. It has a mass. I'm going to calculate the gravitational field. That's a helpful first step so that anything that comes near it, I know already what the forces are going to be. It's like, get you halfway. And maybe the fields are just a calculational tool, right? Then maybe they're just in our minds. They're like a helpful way to organize our calculations, not something that's out there in the universe. So there's a philosopher out there. His name, ironically, Hartree Field. And he wrote a book called Science Without Numbers. And what does that mean? Science without numbers? Like, what are you talking about? And his basic premise is field is a real. They're not real. They're not real. They don't exist. And he goes further than that. He says, numbers aren't real. What? What? So he's saying that the way that fields are a calculational tool, they're an intermediate step, that the number line itself is that way. He's not saying you can't have like more of something or less of something. This is bigger than that. But it's an abstraction to say, two is a thing. Three is a thing, right? We can say this has more than that. This is closer than that. But to construct a number line is to create an abstraction, which is a useful intermediate in to talk about these things. Because instead of saying this is bigger than that, you can say this one's two and that one's three. And then later I can compare them. So it's a halfway mark to our calculation. So he built a whole theory of gravity without fields, without numbers, just based on like closer, you know, nearer. And, you know, this book, I read it, it's not easy. It's, it's, you know, a brain twister to try to think about physics without any numbers at all. And it's not a pretty theory, right? It's not very useful. It's not like the way anybody should do physics. It's pretty mind blowing, though. It's mind blowing in the consequences, because it means you don't need fields, you don't even need numbers. Is it true that fields prove Newtonian gravity without numbers? This book, yeah, this book re-derives Newtonian gravity without any numbers. That's bananas. And it works, right? And it works. And it works. Just based on relationships. And it tells you that you don't need the fields, you don't need the numbers. Maybe they're just a convenience. It's not arguing that math is not useful, that it's not powerful. Just, it's just a tool. It's a shortcut. It's a shortcut. The way that like, you know, taking notes on something as you are thinking about it is helpful. Right. Or organizing your desk, it makes you a more effective person or whatever. Keeping a calendar is useful. Well, not necessary. You could get by without it. Sure. And what that tells you is aliens, maybe they don't have the same mental shortcuts. If their minds work differently, maybe they came up with another halfway point for their calculations, another convenience, another way that reflects the way they think about the universe, which could be the same as ours or could be very, very, very different. Right. And so that opens the door to thinking about how elements of our science could reflect our humanity instead of reality. And, you know, back to the question, is the Higgs boson real? Well, I don't know if any of these fields are real. Sure. I don't know if anything that we've described out there has to be the way we think about it, or it could just be that this is the, a way for us to express how our thoughts work. Right? Maybe this lens we thought was focusing on the universe is also reflecting something of ourselves. So if aliens arrive and their physics or their, whatever they're doing, they're not using numbers. Does that, what is, does that mean our number system, our tool is in the way? Could we be limited by our own senses is what I'm kind of getting at. Yeah, it could be right. It could be that it expresses the way that our minds work, but it could also be limiting, right? It could be that it shunts us into certain ways of thinking about the universe. It closes doors. It closes doors that we imagine shouldn't ever be open, or we don't even realize are there because of the way we're thinking. And, you know, I suspect in that scenario that, you know, human minds are very, very diverse. Aliens show up, they have another way of thinking. It's very confusing at first, but then some parts of us, some few, you know, maybe neurodiverse elements of humanity are like, actually, that makes more sense to me. I never really got what you guys were talking about. Right. Human math, never really. I clicked this alien math is my stuff, you know, and then they're off to the races with alien math and thinking about the universe. That would be so much fun. Absolutely. I think that the way that we think and experience the universe must somehow limit the kind of ideas we consider the way we express them and also the answers that we will accept, you know, the way that we are satisfied, right? When you give somebody an explanation, you wait until that moment where it clicks in their mind. They're like, okay, I got it. I have a thing in my head now, which satisfies my constraints. And that's personal, right? What it takes to make that click for everybody depends on how their minds work. And so if aliens have different kinds of minds, they, they might find our answers just like unsatisfactory and vice versa. Sure. Say they show up and we're like, what is quantum gravity? And they tell us and we're like, man, it doesn't really make sense to me. Like, why do I still have questions? That would be pretty disappointing. It would be. Because if aliens show up, they've clearly solved, or at least most of it, quantum mechanics. Is it possible we're just not capable of understanding it? We just, we just will never, we're just not wired for it. It's possible, right? We don't know, frankly, why we can understand so much. Like our minds evolved in a very different scenario than we live in today, right? They evolved to keep us warm, to make friends, to stay fed in a certain environment. And nobody knows for sure exactly why we developed intelligence and how it's useful. And there's great theories and I'm not an expert in them, but I'm sure that like thinking about 11 dimensional space and doing like crazy integrals over those spaces was not essential for survival. No. Yet here we are doing crazy mathematics that are essential for understanding the universe. Why are we capable of that? You know, what is it about that experience? It's about the fact that we have this imaginary bottleneck produced this mind, which could solve that problem to survive and yet also had this capability. Nobody knows the answer to that, but it suggests that there may be a limit, right? Because our minds come out of some sort of structure of, you know, the neurons. And again, I'm not a neurologist or anything, but we think that, you know, evolution controls our intellectual capacity and therefore we're a product of these, this intellectual evolution. And there should be a limit to it somehow. I mean, we see limits in other creatures. I love my dog. It's very smart. I'm impressed by it. I can learn. I will never explain general relativity to my dog, right? It's just, you'd laugh at the idea, right? Of course not, right? A dog could never understand that. So then why would we imagine that there are ideas out there, you know, that are never beyond what we could think, right? That aliens might show up and they have bigger brains and they explain, they understand the universe and they explain it to us. And we're just like, huh? Like the Ed Wittens among us could never grok it. It seems to me possible that the universe works in a way that is beyond our mental functioning, right? But there are, you know, there are tricks we could pull, but I don't think we have any guarantee that the universe has to operate in a way following mathematics that we can understand. It drifts into, into religion a little bit is not only we don't understand quantum mechanics now, but we're designed so that we can't ever learn it because that would reveal too much to us that we are locked in a certain box and that is our limit. And that is, and you go no further. Yeah, it's certainly possible that we can never understand quantum mechanics and it's an example of something which just doesn't measure. with our intuition. I think that's something that most people don't appreciate enough is how intuitive we demand our physics to be. Think about how we understand weird things. When we talk about gravitational waves, people often explain them in terms of ripples in space-time, they have a certain frequency, so they describe them as a sound. The universe is chirping at us. Or even more simply, if you look at images from the James Webb Space Telescope, you're not seeing the images from the space telescope in the colors that it sees them. You're seeing them color-shifted into the visible spectrum. Why do we do that? Because we understand the universe in certain terms in our minds. When we see something weird, we need to translate it from the weirdness to something familiar. We demand that familiarity. When we think about quantum mechanics, we're doing the same thing. We're saying, all right, this is something new and weird. Let me explain it in terms of a language of primitive ideas in my mind. Okay, is it kind of like a really small rock? You know? Yeah, kind of. Okay, is it kind of like ripples in a pond? Yeah, kind of. You kind of actually need both of those, even though they conflict with each other, it doesn't really work. And the reason it doesn't really work is it's not something that aligns with anything in our primitive mental library, right? It doesn't line up with this. It doesn't line up with that. It's something new and weird. It's not simultaneously a particle and a wave. It's neither. It's something new that's somehow kind of captured by this and that. It's like you eat a new fruit and you're like, I have sensing notes of cranberry. I'm sensing notes of an apple. It's not sometimes an apple and sometimes a cranberry. It's some new weird thing that's kind of reminiscent of things you're familiar with. Yes. And so we tend to have this language in our minds of ideas we know how to play with and talk about and think about. And so we tend to have this language in our minds of ideas we know how to play with and talk about. And I do think that that limits our capacity to explore the universe already, even without aliens coming and giving us crazy ideas. You know, quantum mechanics is already pushing us maybe to the edge of being able to understand that. We can use mathematics, we can use philosophy, we can talk about it, we can build our society based on understanding of quantum mechanics. But we may never like really, truly grok it because of fundamental limits in the way our brains work. And I think that comes out of our intuitive experience. You know, the things you interact with when you were a child, I think it comes out of our senses. You know, the things, the ways we see the universe, the tiny slice of the universe that we are actually able to perceive and interact with. It must shape the way that our minds work and this primitive language of intuitive objects that we demand. And everything gets translated into, which is terribly confining. I mean, it's very powerful, but it's also really confining. I'm glad you've mentioned that because when you think about certain birds using cryptochromes in their eyes to entangle and see the magnetic field of the earth, that's bananas. It's incredible. So it's possible there are senses that we just, we just don't have them. Certainly there are. We've, we've discovered them, right? We know that there are senses out there. Like there are fish that can sense electric fields natively, right? Yes. What is it? What is that like? What is the experience of that, right? They're, they're, they're doing radio communication essentially, no? Yeah. And that to me is frustrating because it sends, it suggests we could have had telepathy, right? We can, we could sense electric fields. We can generate electric fields. Sure. Why can't we just think back and forth? Why do we have to go through this whole like lip flapping thing, right? Physics does not prevent telepathy. Like, in fact, it enables it. So I don't know why we didn't evolve telepathy. It's a, it's a big, uh, it's a big missed opportunity. Um, but so certainly there are senses out there that we don't have, um, that prevent us from interacting with the universe in a native way that aliens might have. Right. Maybe just, they got lucky evolutionarily or they evolved in a different environment that demanded those senses, right? And, and so they, they have these different senses or maybe for example, aliens are microscopic. Usually a mind blowing up, um, potential. Is what if aliens can interact with quantum objects without collapsing them? Wow. Right. I mean, the reason that photons collapse when you experience them, if I shoot a photon at your eyeballs and I give it a probability to go to the left or to the right, you only see it in one, right? Your eyeball is a classical object. It's big, it's fat. It collapses that wave function. But if you were, but if you were tiny, if you're microscopic, if you are a quantum object, quantum objects can interact with other quantum objects. They get entangled, but there's no collapse. What if you could experience both branches of that wave function natively? You could just like, oh yeah, 60% this one, 40% that one, instead of being forced to choose. You live in that world. You're a tiny microscopic alien that can interact quantum mechanically without collapsing stuff. What's your understanding of quantum mechanics? It's just mechanics. It's just mechanics. Right. It's just the way the universe works. Right. And you come to meet us, you probably don't even understand what we don't understand. You know, like when I try to explain how to program the VCR to my grandfather, like what's confusing about this? It makes perfect sense. All of our grandfathers. Right. Like where, where are you missing the story? I don't get it. So many blinking 12 forever. Exactly. Is there anything mathematically that prevents that? Because intuitively that sounds like it could be a thing. I think it could be a thing. There are limitations to how small you can be, like have information and have it be not too noisy and develop intelligence. Are there limitations? Cause aren't we back to plank again? What if there's, what if there's not, we're only 5% there. Yeah. We're only 5% there. Yeah. I think that's a possibility. I don't know. I'm not an expert in neuroscience and you know, I think when we're talking about aliens, we should imagine all sorts of crazy possibilities for how they could process and store information. And you could definitely do a lot of information processing a lot smaller than we do it. Um, especially if you're not using organic neurons. Um, so yeah, and you know, I'm not an expert in, in, in brains at all, but it seems to me like aliens could very likely have a different set of senses, a different kind of experience of the world. Our experience of the universe is not the only way to experience it. Um, another possibility is like, what if aliens are made of dark matter? Yeah, I was just going to ask you, what if they have a, if they can see dark matter, just with us a sense that we don't understand, and maybe the sky is full of stuff that they can just see. Yeah, absolutely. Because it could be that aliens, if they're made of our kind of matter, you know, we hypothesize that dark matter might have a new kind of force that lets it interact with our kind of matter. We hope that it has that force. We have no evidence for it. We hope because that would let us discover it. If there is some sort of like interaction. Between dark matter and normal matter, not the weak force, not the strong force, not gravity, not electromagnetism, some new force. Doesn't it have to interact with the, with that, with our stuff? Because otherwise everything would fly apart. No, it has to interact with our stuff via gravity. Okay. And you're right. That's what's holding galaxies together and shapes the large scale structure of the universe. Definitely interacts via gravity, but via gravity is very, very weak, right? So if there is dark matter out there and it only interacts gravity. There's basically no way we could discover if it's made of particles because a dark matter particle that interacts only via gravity, undetectable gravity is way too weak, right? Um, but if there's another force and this is the big hope that maybe there's some other force out there that lets normal matter interact with dark matter and we could see dark matter winds interacting with us somehow. Well, if aliens can sense, you know, that force, then maybe they could. They could see dark matter natively and to them, it's not a big mystery, right? To them, they see the whole picture and, uh, and they went in a very different path for, for their science possibly, or even weirder if they're made of dark matter, right? If dark matter is some new kind of particle or new kinds of particles, and it has dark physics and dark chemistry, why couldn't it have dark biology? You know, we're talking about 5% of the universe made of atoms has all of this complexity in it. Now, the other 30% of, of, of the universe, why shouldn't it have complexity, right? Why shouldn't it be made of many different kinds of things with complicated, uh, emergent phenomena? Maybe it's boring, maybe it's simple, but maybe it's very complex and maybe there's life in there. In which case aliens could be made of dark matter instead of normal matter. And, and wow, what a different way to experience the universe. So I, I love that theory. I never considered it, but it also makes me. I wonder, we may not have the biological capability to understand how to create the device or the mechanism to ever see it because we don't, you, you can't find what you don't know what you're looking. You know what I mean? You don't know what you're looking for. Yeah. Maybe we just, we can't perceive it. Yeah. It's possible, but you know, I will always bet on humans to figure this stuff out. We've discovered dark matter. Even though it was hard, like it was not obvious, right? This is why it took so long to figure out the dark matters even there. Now we have lots of very convincing evidence that something is there. Some kind of matter. We don't know what it's made out of. We don't know. how it works. Something is out there. Something is gravitating. Um, and I think we will, we'll figure it out. I don't know how, but it would, I would hate to say that it's always going to be a mystery, you know, cause that undersells our children, our children's children, our future, that nobody will ever be smart enough. It's possible of course, and I have to admit that it's possible, but I hope that's not the case. That would be very sad. These are a lot of fascinating theories. And I have a concern that's shared by most of my audience that there's some kind of institutional gatekeeping with these ideas with very, I hate outside the box. I had a cliche, but these kinds of new ways of thinking that you're talking about is, is there a gatekeeping? Are there people saying we, we, this is, this is physics and that's that. Well, you know, I think, um, there are structural issues with the academia, you know, and with science, things that encourage people to follow up on existing ideas. Um, there's also structural things that encourage people to go out on a limb. You know, there are Nobel prizes for people who make crazy discoveries that overturn everything. There are lots of awards. There's recognition. Like it's everybody's dream. It's the best thing you can do in your career is to discover something new and overturns, you know, everything we ever thought. It's what everybody wants. But there is a structural pressure also to encourage people to follow up on existing ideas. And I think that's a really, really good encourages people to like follow up on existing ideas. So for sure. But there's no like sense in which scientists are getting together to say, let's shut down that idea. It's dangerous or something. Scientists are not so organized. There's no coherent group of us in a back room smoking cigars and deciding what we're going to publish. You know, science follows the data. Every example people bring up of like historical gatekeeping, you know, Galileo or, you know, plate tectonics or whatever. That's a story of data persuading the community of a new idea. That's actually a story of science doing it right. You know, um, Galileo, for example, who was doing the gatekeeping there? It wasn't the scientists. No, it was the church. It was political, right? Um, science responds to data. And I think anybody who says like, look, I have a crazy new idea. Why won't science pay attention to me? Like, well, you need data to back this stuff up. And, um, that's where the argument is. And, you know, it takes a while to convince scientists and the mainstream to change course. But I also think that that's, there's wisdom in that, you know, we don't want to like throw away everything we've built for the last few hundred years. Every time somebody publishes a new paper, right. You know, you wouldn't change careers. Every time you hear about a new one, it takes some time to invest and explore, right. You don't burn down your house. Every time you see somebody else's house, that looks cool and start afresh. So it should take a lot of data to change everybody's minds. It should take an overwhelming argument. Um, and, and that's what happens. And you see that at play right now in science. Let's take, for example, our understanding of the early universe, right? We have this description we talked about earlier, the big bang, the universe expands, but there are problems with that, right? We measure the expansion of the universe today. We got a certain number. We go back to the very early universe and we measure the expansion of the universe today. We calculate how much stuff there was, and we propagate that forward in time and say, well, how fast should the universe be expanding? We get a different number. So the early universe measurement of how fast the universe was expanding disagrees with the measurements we make today. It's called the Hubble tension. Big problem currently in cosmology. Is that a large Delta? It's not a large Delta, but the measurements are both very precise. So it's significantly separate, even though it's like 8% different. But doesn't that mean physics was 8% different? We don't know. We have no current good understanding of this. And what you see playing out is people trying out new ideas. Maybe the universe's expansion is not the way we thought, or maybe there's a problem with this measurement and people are poking at every aspect of this coming up with, well, is there a new way we can measure this? That doesn't make that assumption. Is there a new way we could model this? In real time, you're seeing science be open-minded, be accommodating, admit that we're not going to be able to measure this, that we don't know everything, and stumbling around looking for an explanation that will fit the data. Somebody comes up with a model that fits the data, makes a prediction, and is verified, there's Nobel prizes there, right? And also the history of dark energy, the whole discovery, the fact that the universe is expanding and that expansion is accelerating, that was a big surprise. Nobody expected that. That overturned generations of dogma, of narrative, right? But the evidence was overwhelming. And there were two separate groups that saw the same thing. And the evidence was indisputable. And so science pivots. And that's what happens. Science changes when you see the data. And so, you know, I know there's frustration. There's people out there who have an idea and it's not getting enough attention. I have a screenplay I've written. It's not getting enough attention. Nobody wants to read your screenplay. I know. I know. I hear you. It's a common feeling that like your stuff is not getting enough attention. I feel the same way. Most of my grants that I submit to the U.S. government, are rejected. Do I think that's a mistake? Yes. Absolutely I do. You know, I don't, but I don't blame it, you know, it on jealousy or gatekeeping or whatever. Like it's a marketplace of ideas. It's an imperfect, absolutely. It's an imperfect marketplace. The same way that like there are probably great screenplays out there in drawers in Los Angeles that nobody's producing that would be incredible, right? I'm sure that's true. There's great screenplays in drawers right here, Daniel. Somebody should make a screenplay. Make your movie. It's imperfect, but you know, it's gotten us pretty far. And I think the most important thing to remember is, you know, people are operating in good faith. Scientists are just busy, curious people like you, you know? There's no time to read everybody's theory the same way that like Jerry Bruckheimer can't read every single screenplay, right? I actually do my best. Everybody who emails me, their theory, I give them 30 minutes. I read the first piece, I give them some feedback. I think it's important for science to be responsive and to be accessible. I work at a public university. I'm paid by taxpayers. I should be responsive to the public. So, you know, email me your theory. I'll give you my idea on it. A lot of people don't like what I have to say about their theory, but you know. As long as it's honest. Yeah, absolutely. And almost every scientist out there is operating in good faith, doing their best to try to advance our understanding of the universe. So, you know, is there gatekeeping? I think there's consensus. I think there's competing ideas. I think it mostly works well. I can't imagine a better system. What I do think is that we're operating under unfortunate constraints. Like why is science conservative? Why do we have a consensus? Why do we not explore more ideas? Because frankly, funding is shrinking and research budgets are going down, down, down, down, down. What happens when you shrink research budgets? Is people get more conservative? You have less money to like, hey, let's invest in Professor X's crazy idea, as well as, you know, the mainstream ideas we've been working on for the last 50 years. We should definitely, you know, balance existing ideas and crazy new explorations. Absolutely. We should do both. But when research budgets shrink, it's awkward to know how to manage those things. And that's what we're seeing. And so people tend to fund things they know are going to produce something useful on shorter and shorter timescales. And I think that's a mistake. I think we should fund more crazy ideas, more people trying weird things, more people saying, look, I don't know what this is going to do, but I have a hunch I want to go in this direction. I think a lot of historical great discoveries come out of that, just like blue sky craziness, give the nerds some cash and let them play. I love, absolutely. And if you polled Americans overwhelmingly, they would fund the sciences over defense. But you reminded me of something. So you're not getting a lot of grants, but there is one you got that's pretty cool. And you are a guy who likes crazy ideas. Can you tell me about how we can turn every cell phone on earth into a cosmic ray detector? Yeah. This is great mystery in cosmic ray physics. Cosmic rays is fancy name for just like particles coming at the earth. You think of space is empty, but it's actually filled with particles, right? Very, very low density compared to like our atmosphere, but high speed particles whizzing. The sun is making all sorts of particles, black holes emit particles, all sorts of stuff out there in space. And the amazing thing is that there are particles out there with such crazy high energy that nobody can explain it. How high? So the Large Hadron Collider can make collisions up to 10 to the 12 electron volts. 10 to the 12? Yeah. 10 to the 12 electron volts. So that's like 10 to the 12. So that's like a trillion times the mass of a proton. I'm trying to do it too. I have to let the physicist, he'll be faster. So that's like a thousand times the mass of a proton. And that's pretty impressive. But there are particles we've seen from space that are like 10 to the nine times more energetic, right? So like a billion times more energy. And that's amazing. The universe has an accelerator that way, way way outputs ours right it puts ours to shame what is that a what fraction of the speed of light would those be these things are point no no no no no no no oh wow they're like they are really redlining it where are they coming from speed so some of them come from like the centers of galaxies or from really big stars or other stuff but some of these things we cannot explain it like there's nothing out there in the universe you ask an astrophysicist like give me a particle this energy how do you do it they're like we don't know start from a supernova whiz it around a black hole nobody knows how to get particles at this high energy especially because the universe turns out to be opaque to these kinds of particles meaning it likes to absorb them so you shoot a particle out of this high energy it shouldn't go very far it interacts with the cosmic microwave background radiation and it loses its energy so not only is there something new out there that nobody understands capable of making it possible to make it possible to make it possible to make it possible to make it possible to make it possible to make it possible to make it possible to make it possible to make particles a super high energy it's not very far away nobody knows what it is it's not very far away it's not very far away because these particles cannot go very far through the universe so we're seeing them here on earth and we're seeing them then they can't come from like all the way across the universe they have to be coming from our galaxy or one of the neighboring galaxies they can't go any further than that so they're in our cosmic neighborhood the challenge is they're rare we've seen like in decades of looking we've seen a handful of these check engine abs or maintenance light on take the guesswork out of your warning lights with o'reilly veriscan the service is free and provides a report with solutions verified by ase certified master technicians and if you need help we could recommend a shop for you ask for o'reilly veriscan today so we can't even like say where are they coming from in the sky are they all coming from the center of the galaxy are they all coming from this one planet that's orbiting that star and this is like aliens shooting a message at us we can't even do that kind of pointing because we have a handful of them and the reason is that they're very hard to spot they hit the top of the atmosphere and they create a big shower of particles so one energetic particle turns into two with less energy which turns into four which eventually what by the time it hits the ground is like a trillion particles a trillion oh trillions absolutely wow and so you get this like wash of particles over the surface of the earth like super high energy particle hits the atmosphere then you get a big flash across the surface of the earth and so to see more of these things you either need to build like really big detectors of these dedicated detectors they built like in south america and in a desert in utah to see these things and then you get a super high energy particle that hits the atmosphere but they cost like 100 million dollars so you can make those bigger if you had a billions of dollars elon call us or my idea was look why don't we piggyback on existing technology instead of spending money to build dedicated scientific instruments is there something that's already out there that we're spending a lot of money on that could see these things and so your phone is effectively a particle detector how does that work well it has a camera in it sure and what is a camera other than a particle detector and these days cameras are little sea moss chips there are these little piece of silicon and when a photon comes through it liberates a bunch of particles and then it gets read out yep if a muon goes through same thing happens it does absolutely in fact we use the same technology to detect particles at the large hadron collider same silicon technology is used at the heart of every detector at the large hadron collider is that something that you would see in the photo on your phone absolutely so wow i got a lot of muons today if a muon goes through it'll leave like a little white spot or if it comes to an angle it'll leave like a little track across a few particles across a few pixels and so yes you can absolutely see it mostly it's it's washed out because you have a lot of light but if you put your if you put your phone down on the table so the camera's face down not getting any photons but if muon goes through it'll pick it up so we have this idea a few years ago about 10 years ago now and i thought i wonder if i can write an app which can scan the camera to look for muons while it's like on my table at night and see these things so i spent christmas writing my first app let's see if i can get this thing to work learning yeah exactly it was actually on androids it was mostly in java nice um and it works you can see muons so i thought whoa my phone you saw some yes i saw some how did that feel it was it was amazing you know to see a signal emerge from the noise it's did you hold you had to hold a family meeting because your wife is a scientist right molecular biology yeah she does microbiome research she understands like how the gut works and all the microbes in it do you guys ever fight about like whose science is more fundamental just to let her win you know her science is definitely more useful yeah that's for now so it so it worked crazy to me so it works and that's amazing because there are billions of phones out there and each one is connected to the internet and has power and has a person taking care of it and at night they mostly just sit there imagine if you could take all those phones and turn them connect them in a big network they're spread out across the whole planet and we thought how many phones do we need in order to build a cosmic ray telescope the size of the earth that can do science at the level of the universe and that's what we did and we did a lot of research and we did a lot of these like hundred million dollar observatories the answer is like only five or ten million phones that's it that's it you get enough of those and we can see these super high and it costs super high energy cosmic rays at the same rate of these big observatories but there's no limit there's no like upper edge there you have 50 million phones you have a hundred million phones you have a billion phones sure you could do cosmic physics the way nobody has ever done before you could see these things at a higher rate you could figure out where they're coming from in the sky so that's the excitement of it and so that's the project we're working on is to figure out like does this actually work if you have a bunch of phones can you really reconstruct where this thing came from so we have an app and it runs on our phones and we got a recently we got a grant from the julian schringer foundation which is a foundation that likes to fund proposals that have been rejected by the nsf and i love it it's like hey let's invest in the crazy stuff love it right out of the box thing and we pitched this to the national science foundation like 10 years ago and they were like we love your idea but first build it prove that it works then we'll consider funding it which on one hand is like that sucks and then like i get it you know they either have to give their money to us and like our idea is not proven or to like some existing experiment that they know is going to solid science and that's the frustration right if you're at the nsf you have to say no to lots of good ideas you'd love to fund why because they just don't get enough money the nsf has intelligent people pitching them great ideas all the time and they have to say no to most of them because there's just not enough money to go around so they got to be conservative i get it but um we pitched this to the schringer foundation we said give us enough money to build a small version of this so we can test it and prove it and then maybe we can go global so that's the idea and it's a lot of fun and you know we're going to be able to do a lot of things and we're going to be able to do a lot of things and we're going to be able to do a lot of things and we're going to be able to do a lot of things and we're going to potentially one day we'll have an app that can run on everybody's phone well you know at night uh while they're not using it or everybody's got an old phone they're not using of course plug it into the wall and turn it into a cosmic ray detector um so if your app worked is that something that we can beta right now or it it works but the problem is that if everybody runs it it's going to cost me a lot of money because you got to upload all that data oh that's right we got to figure out a way to make it cheap and we're going to have to figure out a way to make it cheap and we're going to have to make it cheap and scalable and get real institutional support um so we don't have the funds to support a global network right now even if the phones exist already and they're already paid for um the infrastructure to gather that is expensive how much data are we talking about that gets pushed not a whole lot of data like we've really shrunk it so that it runs really slim on your phone doesn't heat it up doesn't need a lot of battery doesn't upload a bunch of pixels bedrooms at night no no no so you know a lot of layers there of privacy only upload individual pixels when we think there was a muon there so not a lot of data but you know scale that to 10 million people 100 million people it's a lot of bytes and uh you know cloud storage and cloud compute is expensive yes especially these days when we're competing with you know ai companies um and so that's the hurdle is can we prove that this thing works and then can we blow the bank um to to do the cloud computation this idea is brilliant are there other applications for our cell phones that we're missing out on because it seems like it's a pretty complex device with capabilities there's a lot of citizen science you can do with your phone absolutely phones can detect earthquakes because they have a little accelerometer right you know you can like um if you take hikes you can see like the birds there you can take pictures of them contribute to all sorts of stuff they're very powerful though And, you know, think about the scale of our environment. investment in our phones versus how much we spend on science. It's dwarfed. It's absolutely dwarfed. How much money do we spend as a society on phones? It's big compared to science. And on one hand, that frustrates me. Like, why don't we spend more on science? On the other hand, it's an opportunity. Like, look, we have these things, we've invested in them. Let's figure out a way to use that investment to do some science. Because, you know, you got to operate in the real world. Okay. So the, we get the funding, the apps work, the data comes to you. What does it mean? What do you do with that? Yeah. So that's when you get to start asking questions. Yeah. Okay. So we see the showers are all coming from the center of the galaxy. Okay. What does that mean? I mean, is something at the center of the galaxy capable of creating these super high energy particles? What could it be? Now we can start training other kinds of telescopes there. Optical telescopes, infrared telescopes, ultraviolet telescopes. This is, multi-messenger astronomy to understand the universe in several layers. You can get trajectory information from that? Absolutely. You can get directions, right? That sounds important. Yes, absolutely. That's the goal. It's like figure out where in the world, where in the universe are these high energy particles coming from? We can make a map of the sky of the galaxy and say, where are they coming from? And we can't do that now because there's only like a handful of examples. So if we could get 10 times, a thousand times as many of these particles coming from the universe, we could make a map of the sky of the galaxy. We could start to see the universe in this new way, right? And we know the universe is emitting particles of this high energy using something that's new to us. And, you know, I'm so jealous of astronomers and astrophysicists because we discover a new particle every 20 years. They discover something new and crazy like every year. There's something like little red dots or this new thing or that weird thing. The universe is filled with surprises waiting for us to unravel. And so I hope we can build this cosmic telescope and we could identify where these things are coming from. And, you know, perhaps these things are like pollution from an alien particle accelerator. Somebody out there has built the Giga Collider. And, you know, this thing is just like occasionally spraying a particle in our way, you know. That's the GoFundMe pitch right there. That's the dream scenario, you know, or somebody else has a really fun theory. This is from a guy at the Institute for Advanced Science. Like a real theory that these particles. This is Einstein's old stomping grounds? Yeah, exactly. Serious stuff is done there. He has a theory that these particles reveal a glitch in the simulation we live in. Oh, I just got chills. I know. So this fun theory, which is mostly just, you know, fun to think about that maybe we live in a simulation because the universe seems computational. The way we talk about physics is like we know the situation of the universe now. We can predict. We can predict it in the future. We can sort of step our way to determining the future. And that's sort of a computational way of thinking. And so it inspires people to think, oh, maybe our universe is a computer, dot, dot, dot, right? Well, this guy's idea is if the universe is a simulation, then, you know, maybe they do it the way we would, which is like chop it up into blocks and simulate each of them in parallel. That works, except when things move really fast across the blocks. And so you can't really separate them and do them in parallel. And so maybe the very fastest, highest energy cosmic rays, you know, reveal the limitations of the simulation. It's, you know, it's just a fun idea. I'm not espousing this. I don't think the universe is a simulation. You don't. I don't. No, I don't think there's, we really have evidence for that. I think if the universe. I mean, if you break the Planck scale, then that's going to disappoint a lot of people because that's the pixelation. That's the pixelation. That's the pixelation of the universe. Yeah, exactly. We have no evidence that the universe is pixelated. Also, if the universe were a simulation, then the computer the simulation is running on is in some sort of meta-universe, right? Not ours. Right. We know nothing about the laws of physics of that meta-universe. And therefore, we know nothing about how that computer might operate. The computers in our universe operate a certain way because they manipulate. They take advantage of the laws of physics to do computation. You have bits or you have qubits or whatever your computer uses, it relies on the laws of physics. You have different laws of physics, totally different way to do computation. So if we know nothing about the laws of physics in that universe, then we know nothing about how computation works in that universe. So then we can't argue that computer works in a way similar to our computers. But it doesn't have to. You're a programmer. Maybe the programmer said, in this experiment, this is Avogadro's number, speed of light, you know, 186. This is their set of values. Let's see what happens there. Couldn't that work? Yeah, it certainly could be. But then you've lost the main argument. The main argument, as I see it, is our universe seems to work the same way our computers do. But if our universe is a simulation, it should work the way their computers do. Why? Why? I mean, Mario only runs to the right. I mean, left and right on the screen. You're right. It doesn't have to. It could be that their universe has different laws of physics, and they created a simulation for our laws of physics, which are different from theirs. Yes. Right? The way that, like, as you say, our video games don't reflect our laws of physics. But that's why Mario can't figure out he's in a simulation, because when he's looking at the way his simulation works, if Mario built a computer, right, in Mario land, he wouldn't be like, oh, like, the computer I built is similar to the way my world works. Therefore, I'm in a simulation, right? He can't take that leap. He can't. But a speed runner playing it can find glitches in that program that were unintentional, that changed the physics of the game. Yeah. So, could there be glitches? If we're only at 5%, then I feel like anything's on it. I lean towards simulation. Oh, you do? I do. Why is that? Because of Plank, to be honest. Because everything just seems, it just seems to be like, we get to a certain spot and we can't see anything beyond it. And quantum mechanics. I hate that nobody knows. And the collapse of the wave function. Everyone's got a different idea. And, you know, we don't know. And I like things to just be neat and understood. So, that's a way to reconcile in my mind. Like, you're not meant to understand it. The programmers said, you go here and no further. Right. But I don't know. It could be. It could be. It could be. I mean, if you get smaller, we got to start again. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, the simulation, yeah, the Plank scale is the limit of our current understanding, right? Right. And so, it could be that we get down to that scale and the universe is very weird, or that it is really pixelated. Can't say one or the other. It's just the limit of our current understanding. Right. The cosmic sort of mental horizon. And that's a great segue going into our next break is, you remember when, I don't know if it was the Tic Tac video, UFO, or whatever it was, the explanation was, it's an object that violates our known physics, and that felt specific to me. So, the question I want to talk about when we come back is, what happens if we meet aliens that don't think like us at all? Yeah. All right. All right. Right back. What's your screenplay about? You write science fiction, no? I do dabble in science fiction. I haven't written a screenplay, but of course, I got a science fiction novel, you know. Sure. Or two in a drawer at home. I've got one about when scientists. Yeah. hear from aliens, and what that message contains. And I don't want to spoil it, but there's some interesting wrinkles there. And another one about how we might communicate with dark matter aliens. Are these ready to go? Oh, yeah. I got novels. Absolutely. They're all done. Yeah. Have you sent them out yet? I'm working with an agent. Yeah, we'll see. Perfect. Yeah. Excellent. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Those two novels go right into your book and what we're talking about. Okay. Is that if when aliens try to communicate with us or whatever, or sending signals out, we would never know. Yeah. How does that work? It's a real challenge to imagine how we could decode an alien signal. You know, I like to be optimistic, and I love SETI, and I'm glad that people are listening to the sky, because it's. If somebody's shouting at us and we're not paying attention, God, what a tragedy, right? Right. But it's also, if you think about it from the point of view of language and translation and encodings, hard to imagine a scenario where aliens send us a message, and we figure out how to transform that message, which they've had to encode using some kind of symbolic logic to transmit it to us, how to reverse that encoding so that it comes into ideas in our minds. ideas in our minds right think about like the messages that we've sent to space we sent uh the pioneer plaque sure this is like doodle by frank drake and carl sagan you know and it's got like the pulsar map to how to get to earth and it's got a little diagram of like you know a spin flip transition it's got lots of cool physics encoded in it hydrogen's in there i think hydrogen is in there for sure and that that wasn't a move well it's a it's well intentioned okay i don't know that i could have done any better but it's basically an impossible task you know they did the obvious thing they said well we're not going to use english we're not even going to use like math symbols it'd be foolish to imagine that like aliens think plus and equals and minus right right so they tried to use pictures and little diagrams the motivation was let's come up with a universal language a language which which decodes itself which you can just look at and you don't have to guess but there's so much of human culture in how they wrote down those ideas how they encoded those ideas and you'd have to basically be a human to look at that and know what they're talking about and you know philosophers of language who i spoke to when researching my book they're very pessimistic the idea that we could get a message hang on hang on don't just blast over that you cold emailed nomchomsky and wrote back right yeah yeah right yeah so i was wondering like look how could we communicate with aliens is it possible this is what you asked him yeah because i thought look who has thought about you know the boundaries of language and is a little wacky and is famous for answering emails and so i did cold email uh gnome chompsky and asked him like look how would you communicate with aliens and he wrote back and he said um actually had a whole conversation with him he agreed to a long phone call and he said arithmetic you know he said probably math and you know start with one plus one equals two and and build up logic from there or isaac asimov prime numbers that sort of thing yeah and you know it'd be much easier if aliens were here because then we could do things like we could say this is one this is one this is two we could build up those kind of things but even to get to one plus one equals two with a distant alien civilization where all we have our messages that's really hard to imagine ever working and the reason is that translation of ideas to symbols we don't think about it very much but when we talk when we communicate we're always taking an idea and transforming it encoding it somehow right i write you an email i'm using letters i talk to you i'm pushing sound there's nothing inherent about the message i'm sending that lets you know how i encoded it unless we agree like you and i both speak english so we can use english to communicate um somebody else uses math we can use math to communicate but if you don't know the language i'm speaking how could you figure it out it's it's tempting to say like oh we could crack the code but if you don't know how it's encoded and you decoded it then how are you ever going to crack it you get an alien message you try this in decoding i don't know is this what they were saying you try that decoding i don't know is this what they were saying it's not like in world war ii where when you guess the enigma machine all of a sudden you get plain text that makes sense right this is an alien message who knows when it makes sense and so if we just get a message from space we may never know how to decode it we may never even recognize that it is a message take for example the wow signal right this huge pulse of energy in exactly the way astronomers say we should be contacted sure but what's the information content it was like very brief this little blip is there information content was it just some hydrogen burp somewhere or was it aliens and they sent us what seems to be an obvious message but we don't know how to decode it how to even begin right like what's in there and and that's the reason why people don't think the wow message is from aliens or people can't conclude that because to make that leap you not only got to get the message you got to be able to decode it and say like oh they're from this place and they're talking to us about that so while i'm a big fan of seti and i hope that they hear something understandable i think that it's much more likely if aliens are communicating with us we either can't recognize it or could never decode it and you know people out there who are skeptical might think wait a second but we can decode things like we decoded egyptian hieroglyphics right yes we did decode egyptian hieroglyphics but that was easy we had a cheat we had the rosetta stone yes and it still took 20 30 years 20 or 30 years right imagine why did it take so long it's because we had a bunch of cultural assumptions about how hieroglyphics worked that were wrong that led us down the wrong path even when we had the rosetta stone even with the cheat sheet yes so our cultural assumptions the things we imagine must be true about communication blind us to be able to decode even messages from other human beings right ancient human cultures and so the idea that we could do that for aliens i'm not going to say it's impossible i'm saying it's maybe wishful thinking didn't you run that pioneer plaque by your students as an experiment yeah and they crushed it right no no if you show this diagram from the pioneer plaque to people who've never seen it before yeah my students are young enough to have looked at this before and i asked them i said what do you think this means i was wondering like is this you know well enough to define that well enough designed that um a human will understand what carl sagan meant and these are look these are human brains these are physics trained brains they're like the closest thing you can imagine to the person who wrote the message and so it should work well this is the best case scenario and they sat there for hours guessing this guessing that guessing the other thing nobody came anywhere close to the right answer right um and you know it's and again i don't want to dump on carl sagan the man's a genius a pioneer in many ways i don't know that i could have done better it's an impossible task to write a self-decoding message that works for a universal audience no matter what their culture what their context it just can't be done professors of of a philosophy of language say that's impossible so that doesn't mean the whole thing there's no hope right if aliens arrive and we can talk to them we can point at stuff we can develop language in common then we can make progress but distant communication between the stars i don't know that's ever going to work um your experiment reminded me of something if you would indulge me a quick story you're a sci-fi fan and this is this is for people listening to maybe help them there's this great star trek next generation episode called darmok okay and the enterprise arrives at the planet they're trying to work so the words are getting through all right but the aliens are speaking they're saying darmok and jelad at tanagra uh temba his arms wide uh shaga when the walls fell so we're understanding the words but the thing was these aliens were speaking in metaphor of their mythology so it would be like us talking to an alien speaking perfectly english and i mean and i say well my achilles heel is this or you know if i do that i'm crossing the rubicon exactly even if you have the language without the cultural foundation exactly we're stuck yeah so i'm kind of with you i think it's a big challenge and i think that we are not good at imagining how big a challenge it could be because like look at star trek the next generation it's great and i love it but like the aliens they're like humans with a croissant on their forehead yes you know he's like surely things are going to be more different than that and you know it's not just their physicality it's ideology but their minds are going to be more alien than we can anticipate and i think we should think creatively about what aliens might be like but we should also accept that we're probably incapable of really anticipating it that more likely they're going to be much more alien than we can imagine and that's going to be a wonderful moment because then we're going to be like what that's even possible how does that work the scenario you describe you get to learn about a whole mythology of alien culture how fun right so you know these are good problems to have if we if we meet the aliens and there's a barrier there it means that you know we got to start small we got to figure out how to get there there's a lot to learn still and we should pay attention along the way to what it says about our humanity what it says about their alienness that we're having this obstacle well what about the theory that life is going to evolve sort of the same way ish everywhere bipedalism where symmetry the brain is up top no perhaps right perhaps perhaps is pretty close to no actually well you know for for that to happen you'd have to have the same evolutionary environment right and the same accidents the same mutations right it's possible but it's possible but like if an asteroid hadn't hit the earth 65 million years ago we wouldn't be here right so true why should we expect the same exact scenario to happen elsewhere seems pretty possible it's pretty unlikely to me and it's extrapolating from an example of one right right which is all we can do this is all we have and so we're very very limited but if i had to place a bet i would suggest i would guess that aliens are going to look very different um and they're going to act very different and think very different but you know there are clever people who think that there are some things that they'll have in common you know there's a great book called the zoologist guide to the galaxy where he thinks about what animals might be like on alien planets and you know he says look anywhere there are critters there's going to be critters eating other critters so for example predation will exist everywhere and that's probably true that makes sense you know but he could be so he could be wrong right a lot of this is cases where we don't know where we're making assumptions and the joy of experimental work of going out to explore the universe and not just thinking about it is being wrong is discovering where your assumptions have blinded you right aliens saying why did they use carbon when silicon-based life is you know or arsenic why do they right why did they go that way yeah exactly um so you don't believe aliens are here i'm not putting you on the spot or trying to be weird i'm just because we talk about when they're going to be here when they're going to be here so you don't think they're here i don't know that they're here i certainly haven't seen evidence that compels me to believe that they're here i want them to be here you do oh yes you're not a dark forest guy no i want them to show up like look even if the aliens show up and they kill most of us uh they eat half of us as long as they deliver some answers about these physics questions it's a fair deal from my perspective i'm not sure if the wife and kids would agree no they probably don't but i'm just so desperate to know i mean imagine there are answers to these questions out there people things aliens know them they could share them with us aliens are flying by are you not gonna flag them down i mean really yeah you want to remain ignorant i mean i get the risk the existential risk to humanity of attracting attention of super advanced aliens i get it but i could not stay quiet you give me that big red button i am mashing it because i just gotta know and the idea that the answers exist and we're just not going to get access that's infuriating to me that's so frustrating um so yeah i definitely want to know the answers even if there's a great risk to earth you know are they here now there's a lot of talk about that and there's a lot of videos and a lot of people want it want them to be here and i want them to be here i wish that they were i want those videos to be true but you know there's too many prosaic explanations for basically everything yes and too many things that don't really add up for me to believe that they're here and you know i'm a science guy i gotta see an overwhelming evidence physical evidence you know independent replication um before before you believe that kind of stuff but you know i'm not biased against it if anything i'm skeptical about it because i'm biased towards it and you got to be extra skeptical of things you want to believe because that's the easiest way to fool yourself that's very well said that and that's very true and i lean toward disclosure is probably not going to happen or at least not going to happen the way people hope it's going to happen i'm certainly a fan of disclosure like it should all be out there sure if there are secrets like bring them out you know epstein files alien files whatever air it all out you know i think there's a lot of harm done by secrecy a lot of lack of trust which is well deserved you know because there's been a lot of secrets which i think are unfortunate so the ship lands in your backyard klatu comes out you get one question you get one you just get one no fault you just get one phone a friend what do you i mean what's the big one well you know i think i answered that question with my feet i def i devoted my whole life to answering one question which is what is the universe made out of that's the one i really wanted the answer to and and if i get one question for the aliens that's going to be my question made out of do you mean the fundamental rat down to the yeah at the firmament the firmament what are the ingredients of the universe that are unavoidable right that always exist because there's lots of things in the universe which exist but they don't have to kittens for example a lot of time when the universe didn't have any of that any kittens in it that was a very sad i know the pre-kitten era was a bad time um and you know it doesn't have to have kittens what does the universe always have to have to be a universe we don't even know if that includes space and time it could be that space itself is emergent right that it's something so deep down that we don't understand even how to think about it and that's what i want to know because that gives you the best access to those philosophical answers this is what the universe and that defines what it is to be a universe and it might give you some insight into why we have a universe why is there something and not nothing why is it this way and not some other way when i think about getting that answer i wonder if it'll be self-evident if you look at it and you think oh of course this is the only way it possibly could be or if you look at it you're like there's a seven in it why is there a seven is the universe seven ish like why couldn't it be six ish you know i wonder about the nature of those answers and what it would mean but yeah that would definitely be my question it's a great question because we know for a fact there is something just because of dark matter so there is something more yeah there's definitely more to learn what we don't know is if there is a foundational anything right right it could be that that because we've never seen anything that's foundational everything we've ever seen is made of something else so even the fact that there could be something which is only made of itself and not made of something smaller so a quark has a smaller component well we don't know right but it but it seems likely because it does there's a pattern to the quarks there are unexplained patterns among the quarks and the leptons that look a lot like the patterns in the periodic table wait explain that because i haven't heard that there are patterns to the quarks that look like the periodic table yeah so back up 100 years you have the periodic table and then you have the periodic table and then you have the these are the things that define the universe 100 elements but there are patterns to them right sure some are um conducting some are not conducting etc etc it's a periodic table for a reason right and we now know that those those period periodic attributes of the periodic table are emergent phenomenon from microscopic structure how the electron orbitals come together etc everything comes out of that so now fast forward we're looking at the table of the quarks and the leptons and this is the new periodic table and there are patterns there that we do not understand like why are there three families of quarks why are the three families of leptons why do those match perfectly why is the electron charge exactly balanced the proton which is three quarks mixed together not like two within one percent or 0.01 exactly matches right our theory doesn't explain that those are two parameters in our theory why do they have to be set this way why do they get more massive as you go up in in uh in the generations nobody knows it's a whole set of questions you can ask about this which probably are explained by some microscopic structure it's emergent properties of something smaller that we don't yet understand of course because there's clear intention there whether it's god or something else but there's intentionality to that well i'm not sure about intentionality but there's definitely structure there i just mean structure yes okay it's organized yes exactly and so we've seen this before and it's always been explained by new microscopic structure and so it could be that that's the last one that once we understand that the quarks and the leptons are made of the same little squigly ons or whatever that that's it but probably there's going to be structure to those and patterns there we don't understand and then we'll go deeper and it could be we just do that forever right it could be that there's no base case you know it's like we're incursion but it just keeps going right right um because we've never seen anything that's not made of smaller stuff so how do we even know that anything like that exists the usual argument is plank scale but that's a misunderstanding right that's just the limit of our current theories we don't know that it can't go on beyond that so it could just be that it goes on forever and philosophers are cool with this like yeah it could certainly be that everything is built out of something which is built out of something else which is built out of something else and it recurs down forever like it's a crazy way to imagine the universe working but we have no argument against that no so there's a logic to that that bothers me right yeah exactly when you know when you finally get smaller than quarks it's like oh but wait there's more exactly quarkitos how much of a setback was it when congress pulled the funding for that texas collider back in the 90s oh it's painful it's painful it was going to be here bigger than bigger than hedron no yeah absolutely it's going to be much bigger than the large hedron collider is now so it just set us back decades in our understanding of the universe if they had finished that thing and turned it on we would have discovered the higgs boson in the 90s right and and we could have potentially discovered stuff which the lhc still can't see right who knows it's over our current horizon i don't know if it would have been over that horizon but yeah it set us back and you know so we're going to have to wait and see what happens next it's a tiny amount of money on on the scale of countries it's a few billion dollars it's so small it's so small it's frustrating yeah we could have just bought that knowledge you know we are kids in a candy store it's all around us we got the money in our pockets and we're just like nah nah i don't want to buy the secrets of the universe gravitons aren't that cool yeah i want dictate public policy and no science should but i think it's important that people understand the science when they're doing it and i think it's important that people understand the science when they're making these decisions so they understand that the context and the consequence of these decisions that's why i asked about gatekeeping um because you need the public support that's why i love wacky experiments you need you have to inspire yeah the public to support science science is by the people for the people and of the people right that's that's right and there's no division it's like it's not like scientists are a different breed like we're just people right we're just people who are curious about the universe and decided to devote our lives to it and get this privilege to do this with our lives and our minds but we're just people just like everybody else we're curious about the universe and uh and science should be shared with everybody absolutely and i think scientists and and artists are the two most important types of people that we that we create you know so when there's a when avi lobe rents a boat and drags a magnet across the south pacific looking for pieces of meteor sounds like a crazy thing but that is science that makes people excited because it's what he couldn't couldn't get it funded he got a little bit of funding but that's we should be throwing money at that kind of stuff oh it really it drives me crazy but there's no solution not that i can think of um well let's just you know 10x our funding for science that would solve a lot of these problems because then we'd have enough money to do like your mainstream science and your crazy ideas and a lot of the institutional pressures which lead to the issues we have today would be released if we had just more money for science sure where do we sign because isn't the manhattan project kind of annoying because we proved we can do it yeah we can do it yeah we just doing it for the wrong reasons yeah but to do that we need to convince people right because it's the people who decide we need to convince people that science is worth the investment and that we're being responsible with their money because it's their money um you know and i think we have a long way to go there and science is under attack right now unfortunately and i think what do you mean well you know i think there's a there's a lot of anti-expertise sentiment out there and i think there's a lot of folks who are encouraging that um and undermine trying to undermine the role of science in you know public discourse can you be more specific but if you if you're talking about specific names you don't have to do that but i i haven't heard science under attack that's oh oh oh o'reilly check engine abs or maintenance light on take the guesswork out of your warning lights with o'reilly veriscan the service is free and provides a report with solutions verified by ase certified master technicians and if you need help we could recommend a shop for you ask for o'reilly veriscan today auto parts well the well the funding for science for example is certainly shrinking of course and i think that's because we see a lessening of support for science among the public um and this i see a sentiment when i interact with with people online that a lot of folks out there seem to be under the impression that scientists are committing fraud or just slurping up money um in bad faith proposing theories that they know don't make sense just to like you know try to capture government dollars or whatever and i think that's because we see a lessening of support for science among the public things that don't resemble the reality i see on the ground like i talk to scientists nobody's out there like trying to cook up theories that they don't believe they're they're working their best to try to understand the universe and um everybody disagrees some people think that that research is a waste of time and money i think that my research is the best way we should do it and you know everybody disagrees about the way forward it's important we remember that everybody's it's important that we assume at least that everybody's operating in good faith and and that we focus on the argument rather than trying to attack people's motives like where's the evidence and what's the argument for this and let's you know let's keep it based in the science i've heard the uh higgs being the last discovery to in 2012 described as the nightmare scenario i it because i hear that it's like that well we aren't there's nothing more it's it's been years so why bother uh i don't know what the good response to that is you know how to what what can we show people and show them that it is moving forward it's not we haven't stagnated have we so it's a good point you know and the thing to remember is that research is exploration and we shouldn't be making promises about what we're going to discover because we just don't know and there's going to be dry spells and then there's going to be periods where we discover lots and lots of stuff and nobody knows what's over the cosmic horizon and so we shouldn't be promising discoveries i think certainly some people you know um went out with public statements that were too strong i don't think majority of scientists felt that way um so it's fair to say like we hope we would have discovered more i hope so also i also wish that when they landed on mars they had discovered you know little critters crawling around but nobody says that like nasa has stagnated in their exploration of mars it's a wonderful program you know it's their machines are working very very well and i encourage them more we should do more of that exploration sure but what's the what's their budget percentage wise compared to 1969 yeah exactly it's like nothing it's nothing it's unfortunate because once again there's no military reason to do it that's just what it always comes down to unfortunately yeah and so has physics stagnated you know more broadly there's been a lot of really interesting develops and developments in physics outside of experimental particle physics you know yeah now they're driving antimatter around campuses which sounds like a great idea but you know we can't control where the discoveries are we can just do our best to explore build these machines if the public will pay for them and hope that we can make these discoveries and so yeah it's a little bit of a nightmare but it's also our reality we we need the discoveries oh speaking of antimatter this reminds me and getting the public support you've heard of the albuquerque drive the warp drive sure can that really work can we fold space time like that and i'm not we don't have to do this is science yeah real science yeah yeah i love this idea and i love that it's it shows how science works you know you don't go all the way to solution immediately you start you play around you suggest an idea which has current which has obvious problems and then you attack those problems you work on it um it's serious science and and it can be the first step towards warp drive it has big current problems one of those is that we don't know how to build the thing like general relativity says it's allowed to exist like we can't have that configuration that's not the same as we know how to make space go from our current configuration to that configuration it's like if somebody says hey a souffle is possible okay that doesn't mean i know how to make a souffle put me in the kitchen i'm mostly going to not make souffles yeah i fail most of the time with those right and so we don't know how to go from not a warp drive to a warp drive and there's no guarantee that every step along the way satisfies the equations the warp drive itself satisfies the equations our current situation satisfies it but every step along the way has to also not violate the laws of physics right so that's a big question mark another question mark is like even if you could build the thing would it do what you wanted because the current explanation because the current design requires you to arrange matter basically and i'll track between where you are and where you want to go and like all right cool if you built the track then you could get there but then you're already there so if the goal is to like get to alpha centauri in a short amount of time first you have to build a track in slow sublight travel between here and alpha centauri then you can get to alpha centauri i hadn't considered that so in order to fold the space you already need to track the space yes exactly so it's you know it's great somebody builds the train track you can get across the country much faster but the first person still has to build the track and so we're already be there it's not a way you can explore the track you can explore the universe it's a way you can more rapidly get from places you've been to places you've already been can we well i hadn't considered that so we have to throw that out now can we build the craft to navigate the bulk the uh the r the rs1 bulk can we can we vibrate to a higher dimension where space compacts exponentially and navigate yeah we don't know we're not we're not even close to knowing the answer to that because we don't know if space operates that way is there a bulk is there five dimensions what are the laws in those what is your what does your gut tell you though you're and you're a science fiction runner so you can't tell me you haven't thought about it this is fun this we're just this is the fun part yeah sure i suspect that there are ways to get from here to other stars faster than light would go uh my gut tells me that there's a lot of holes i don't know that it's warp drives i don't know that it's wormholes but i suspect that we'll come up with a clever way to escape our you know the cosmic imprisonment of the speed of light and explore the galaxy um i don't know exactly what that is yet you don't know um i wish you didn't see you because i had a follow-up buddy so in in your novels i guess the aliens come to us huh yeah how did they get here well if they're dark matter aliens they could already be here and they're already here right that's the amazing thing about the dark matter universe it's like another universe layer it on top of ours, right? Dark Matter's in the room with us right now. It's here, right? And so aliens could be aliens, but also neighbors. Right. What do they look like in your book? I'm going to save that detail. Save it. Okay. I guess because you're publishing it, it's fair to wait. Well, I hope to. We'll see. But you think that we'll get there someday. You know, I'm an optimist. I like to believe in human ingenuity. Yep. In human creativity. And anytime somebody said, this is impossible, somebody's figured out a way to do it, you know? And we know we have hints already, like these warp drives and wormholes. These are hints that the limits we think about are flexible, right? You know, the limit to the speed of light is the limit for things moving in flat space. But the universe is expanding. It's not flat. And the universe can be curved. So there's, you know, strong hints there that there's something we can do to escape those cosmic limits. A warp drive's not workable yet. Wormholes we don't know how to build yet either. But probably somebody else is going to come up with something even more clever. Yeah, and what's cool about those is, mathematically, at least, it works. Or it's close enough. Like, we're still speed of light. We're not touching it, you know? I do like the theory of a circular craft. That's a particle accelerator. Creating a field and moving it to the bulk. I love that. Because, I mean, RS1 says you can do that. Now, I believe the theory is that it's at the quantum level. You can't really scale that. But it's there. It's published. And I think the math works, except the experiments failed. So I just like that that stuff is out there. And it's so cool that physicists are building a UFO separately and then don't even know it. I love it. Your contributions to the UFO, I really appreciate them. I'm looking at my notes about your Starbucks moment story. Where you talked about, and it was about communicating with aliens. You talked about traveling. I think, fundamentally, I'm hoping that when the aliens arrive, that they teach us something new and unexpected about the universe. And that hope, for me, comes from, you know, everyday experience. The reason that you travel the globe to try to experience the universe and try to experience new things is because you can't imagine everything that humans can do and the way humans can live. Like, if you go around the world, you discover people have weird stuff for breakfast, right? They don't just all have your same Starbucks order. They don't even have Starbucks everywhere. And how disappointing and boring would it be if you went to some new part of the world and all they did was everything you already do, right? The reason you go is to have that moment where you're like, what? People have, like, spicy fish soup for breakfast? I never imagined it. And then it becomes your new favorite thing. Sure. Right? And you're like, and that tells you that you're not capable of imagining every way it is to be human, every way to experience and enjoy the world. And so when aliens come, you know, it's very likely that they're going to show us new ways of being in the universe. Not just what we have for breakfast, spicy alien soup, but new ways of doing physics and new ways of doing science. And that's going to tell us not just about what it's like to be an alien, but also what it means to be human. It tells you something about yourself, you know, that you are capable of imagining these things or you like these things. And so I hope when the aliens show up that, you know, they deliver some insights into the nature of humanity as well as insights into the nature of physics and the universe. And then we're going to learn a lot about both when the aliens show up. If they don't just zap us from space. I tend to think they wouldn't do that. There's plenty of resources out there. And hopefully we're not tasty. And following up on that, Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. And I think that in most science fiction stories, like, why are we fighting over resources? You know, there's like asteroids full of platinum and planets made of water. Right. The thing that's maybe unusual about Earth is us. Right. Intelligence, technology. So I think if they come, they might, you know, enslave us to work in their science factories or whatever. But I think they're less likely to kill us. Right. Why travel all this way just to do that? I think they probably, enslaved us to mine gold to save their atmosphere, but I have no proof. That brings up something I wanted to ask you about is you have an extension to the Drake equation. Yeah. How does that work? So a Drake equation, if you could just tell us what that is and then how you messed it up. Yeah. So the Drake equation is a fun way to think about answering a really hard problem. And that problem is trying to calculate how many alien civilizations are there out there, that could communicate with us. And this is something Frank Drake was worried about. And the answer is really elegant, but it's also really profound. He says, look, just break it up into pieces and start with how many stars are there. And then what fraction of those stars have planets and what fraction of those planets have intelligent life and what fraction of those have civilizations, et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, it's the Drake equation. It's just a bunch of numbers multiplied by each other. Right. Right. And that sounds really simple and kind of trivial. And, like, you look at other famous equations, like, you know, the Schrodinger equation, like complex numbers and all sorts of crazy stuff in it. Why is the Drake equation famous? It's famous because the structure of it is really insightful. The fact that you have to multiply these numbers together tells you if any of those numbers are zero, the answer is zero. Right? Yeah. It doesn't matter how many stars there are if none of them have planets or if none of those planets have life or if none of those have intelligent life. If any of those numbers are zero, the answer is zero. Right? And that's a little depressing. It is. It tells you everything has to go right in order for this to work. So when we were thinking for our book about the deeper question, like, well, not only are we interested in aliens, we're interested in, are there aliens out there we can talk about physics with? When they show up, we can, like, go to the blackboard and start writing Lagrangians and thinking about the nature of space-time. And to do that, we have to make even more requirements. We have to have aliens that exist and, you know, are technological, but also, do they even do science? Can we communicate with them? Do they ask the same questions? Would they accept the same kind of answers? So all these things need to be in place for this, like, fantasy scenario where aliens show up and then we're, like, talking about physics 10 minutes later. For that to come to pass, all those things need to happen. - And none of them can be zero once again, right? - That's right. None of them can be zero. If aliens don't do science, then there's no way we're talking to them about physics. Or if we can't communicate with them, then, like, it's all over. And in the book, we go through each of these in turn and ask, well, like, what are the chances? You know, what do we really know? And we argue both sides of it, of course. And, you know, unfortunately we don't have an answer the same way we don't know the answer to the Drake equation. The thing that's cool about the Drake equation is that you can see us making progress. Like, when Drake put it together, he knew very little about any of those numbers. Maybe the number of stars in the universe or in the galaxy. Now we know, like, that most of those stars have planets. - Right. - It's a huge leap forward. - It was huge. So no zero there. - Yeah. - Now we keep going. - I don't think enough people are excited about that. Like, we had this turning point in human history, 1995, when we went from we've seen less than 10 planets in the universe to, like, now we've seen more. Now we know that there are planets elsewhere. Before that, it could have just been that our solar system was the only one with planets. - That's right. - Right? For all we know, this is the only example. We live here because it's weird. - And I think we're over 5,000 exoplanets now. - That's right. - Imaging some. - I know. And we can extrapolate from that the likelihood of any star to have a planet. And it's a shockingly high number. - Yes. - Right? It's, you know, 50-ish percent have, like, Earth-like planets in the Goldilocks region. It's an incredible number. The huge number of stars out there with planets. But we don't know if the next number is zero. - Right, right. - But we're making progress, right? We're, like, imaging those planets. We're looking at their atmosphere. We're finding potential biomarkers of life. And it could be that pretty soon we discover, wow, there's life everywhere. Maybe most of it's microbial, so we gotta work on the next number. - Mm-hmm. - But, you know. - But that still counts to me. - It still counts. - Yeah. - And so I'm excited about, like, how humanity makes progress on these questions. And I hope that one day we get to start answering some of the questions on our extended Drake equation. Like, well, do aliens do science? Like, could they show up with their warp drives, but they're not scientific? They're, like, not scientific. They're not interested in understanding how they work. - How could that be? How could you have interstellar travel without understanding how to do it? - Well, the same way that we had technology for centuries, thousands of years, without understanding how we did it. The same way I make a souffle in the kitchen without knowing what's going on inside, because I don't know the food chemistry. You know, we had metallurgy. We had fermentation. We had all sorts of technology that we didn't understand. The guys who know the technology knew how to make, like, super-sharp samurai swords. They didn't understand, you know, the solid-state physics of what was going on there, the doping and the steel and the structure of that. They just knew how to do it. - I guess that's true. - You dip it this way, you turn it that way, you hammer it this other way, right? And before we had what we call modern science, we were sort of stumbling around in the dark developing technology slowly. Science absolutely has sped that up, because knowing how things work means you can modify it, you can extrapolate it. you can predict, but it's not necessary. you can develop technology without understanding how things work and it's maybe less likely but it's certainly worth considering the possibility that aliens could like over millions of years stumble their way into this technology and they show up and they can show us how to build a warp drive you do this you bang it that way you dip it in water you know whatever right and then we're like okay but what does that how is it working what's the quantum gravity of it and they're like we don't know and why do you care who cares it works and you might think that's impossible but that curiosity we were talking about early on where we want to know i want to know how it works but somebody else is curious about something else right the way like i don't really care about food chemistry somebody out there is devoting their life to it it's like labs of people working on food chemistry they couldn't imagine not wanting to know curiosity is an emotional response to the universe sure and it differs from person to person it must certainly you know differ from human to alien it has to right so to imagine that aliens have to have the same curiosity about the universe that we have that's projection that's saying they're just like humans with a croissant on their forehead once again that's right and they could be very alien so i think you know you can make an argument that aliens that are curious the way we are are more likely to develop science and therefore technology so out of a hundred visiting aliens probably 99 of them know how their warp drive work but it's not a requirement right and so it's just an argument to say look uh avoid making human based assumptions here because we don't know so i think sooner or later we'll see that most of drake's filters are going to be greater than zero what do you think of your extension what's the hardest one to overcome what's the most difficult filter the one that man i don't know if we're gonna get there i think the one of the most challenging one is you know the the answers i think even if aliens are curious and we can communicate with them and they want answers to the same questions it could just be that their answers don't crock with ours you know that they give us their answers and we're just i don't get it or it doesn't work for me you know because in the end there there's not an objective way to evaluate whether an answer makes sense to you either makes sense to you or it doesn't and you demand more explanations or you're done that moment when you stop that's a that's not an objective way to evaluate whether an answer makes sense to you either makes sense to you or it doesn't and you demand more explanations or you're done that moment when you stop that's a it's not an objective moment it's a subjective decision saying like i think i get it enough to move on and so it could just be that aliens have answers that don't satisfy us right and they don't know why they're like what do you mean we explained it to you here it is and you're like it's not working you know um because of the those reasons we talked about earlier that we have this intuitive library of concepts in our mind and we demand everything mapped to those and if they don't we're like well it's not really working so to me that's sort of the nightmare scenario that's the hardest one to imagine oh oh oh o'reilly check engine abs or maintenance light on take the guesswork out of your warning lights with o'reilly veriscan the service is free and provides a report with solutions verified by ase certified master technicians and if you need help we could recommend a shop for you ask for o'reilly veriscan today o o o o'reilly um knowing how to cross that barrier you know there's other scenarios that are easier like what if aliens show up and they have a theory of the universe but it's just very different from ours like their whole history has been different they have a whole development of math and physics and whatever taking a totally different path and they've arrived at a different theory we have quantum fields they have quantum schmields right whatever and they're very different that's frustrating but it's also it's a very different thing and i think it's a very different thing it's a it's bridgeable we can be like well your theory works too that's cool maybe there's some things that are easier in your theory and some things that are easier in ours right and it means something deep about the universe if there are two explanations that that says a lot about the universe right it means that ours is almost certainly not reality correct right if there's two explanations but you could live with that right sure you could live with that but the idea that aliens could show up and their explanations just don't sit with us um yeah i don't know how to overcome that so that's the one that keeps me up at night does it really keep you when you say keep keeps you up at night do you do you really are you emotional about this honestly i mean with what physicists like astronomers say i've spoken to several astronomers that are frightened and frightened in a way meaning like the more i know the smaller i feel and insignificant but they're looking at particles how does that make you feel as a person more insignificant more significant are you is the universe a scary place is all this an accident these are questions that i would have asked because you're looking at the fundamental building blocks yeah i find the universe very welcoming i mean so far this technique we developed i find the universe very welcoming i mean so far this technique we've developed it's unraveling the secrets of the universe they're unfolding before our eyes no problem has been too hard so far um it's incredible to me that it's worked as well as it has you know that our minds are capable of this so to me it's joyous it's exciting it's incredible what we've learned and i just want to be around long enough to be along for the ride when we uncover the next crazy discovery um so i don't know why that is you know why it works so well why we're capable of understanding it why the universe even follows laws that are discoverable by experiment it's amazing so i'm thrilled to be a part of this universe uh is the tiniest smallest little mote of dust in a tiny corner of it that can yet unravel the way that it works i mean think about this we we've never left the neighborhood where we grew up right maybe we sent somebody to the moon a few times right we've sent satellites to and robots to mars we've gone nowhere and yet by staying at home we've still made a map of almost the whole universe right of how things work from the cosmic to the microscopic it's it's incredible just by receiving the photons that land here on earth so imagine what we could do if we actually began to explore go visit these things and sample from them and orbit black holes and stuff the kind of things we learn i can't even imagine so i'm excited about it so day in day out the excitement the excitement sustains absolutely it's it's a joy to wake up and go to work and think about these things and especially actually the science communication like i love connecting with the public about it because it reminds me of why we're doing this and it shows me how many people out there are excited about this people who always had an interest in physics but ended up doing something else for whatever reason they don't lose that curiosity they still want to know and they want to participate and you know that's why i love shows like yours and then our shows that are trying to like share it with everybody make sure that because it belongs to everybody that everybody gets to participate in this joy and this this you know miracle of understanding what's the last non-physics scientific discovery that got you excited that made you run home that what was the last the last thing non-physics non-physics if it's if you want if it's physics okay i think something that's super fascinating is how we understand our own history history how we came to be who we are in what way how far back are we talking i'm talking about the development of humanity you know million years okay and you know homo sapiens and how we know about like homo sapiens interbreeding with neanderthals and we can tell like whether it was a male or a female because does it come in mitochondrial dna or on the y chromosome it's amazing to me how we've unraveled this ancient history through the tiniest of clues right and what we've been able to piece together it's like amazing detective work for thousands the millions year old mystery and i can't and i can't wait to learn you know what they're going to continue to unravel so i'm deeply impressed by biologists and evolutionary anthropologists me too and what non-physics science do you keep an eye on um so in the podcast actually we talk about physics but lots of biology as well okay yeah because my co-host kelly is a biologist so we cover all sorts of topics in biology i'm constantly learning about you know parasites and evolution and all sorts of fascinating stuff i feel like if i had 10 lifetimes um i would go into lots of different areas maybe not even always physics okay we're getting ready to wrap up but i need to know why you why did you write the book do aliens speak physics what what what gave you that spark i've always been in interested in this question of like the philosophy behind physics you know why do we ask these questions what do they mean and the questions are exciting because of the philosophical context you know like like is the higgs boson really there you know i want to know the answer to that question that's a philosophy question i want to know the answer and i long believed that it was i long believed that our physics was singular that it was unique that it was inevitable that it was the only way to describe the universe and that it was the only way to describe the universe and that's But then I started reading philosophy and I became educated. and I understood, wow, there's a much broader context here. Some of these questions are much more subtle than I understood, and I wanted to share that. Hang on a second, though. That is a life-changing moment. So what's the emotional impact of that change? Doesn't your whole worldview shatter? Yeah, absolutely. I used to certainly believe that the universe was mathematical. I had that spiritual moment as an undergrad, and I believed for a long time. But I got to UC Irvine, and they have a great philosophy department, and they give really interesting seminars, and I started attending those and paying attention and then realizing, wow, I have a narrow view of this. After a while, they started asking, like, who are you and why are you coming to our seminars? Actually, it happened after I discovered that there's a big cultural difference between physics and philosophy. In a physics seminar, you're explaining your science. You expect to be interrupted with questions. If you get to the end of your seminar and nobody's asked anything, then either you've lost them or you've been interrupted. You've lost them, or you've been interrupted. You've lost them, or you've bored them. It's a huge disaster. In philosophy, you do not interrupt with questions. I discovered only when I raised my hand and asked a question, and the whole room turned around and went like, oh, oh my gosh. It's like objecting at a wedding. You just don't do it unless you've got really something serious to say. You hold your questions to the end, and then you all discuss it. So I learned there's a cultural difference, but I met a lot of great people and learned a lot about philosophy. And so this book is about the, you know, the boundaries of physics and philosophy that I think are not widely enough understood. And I wanted to share that with everybody, including a lot of my physics colleagues, but also everybody out there. There's not a lot of like accessible books about philosophy of science. And it's really fun stuff. It's mind-blowing stuff. It's deeply impactful stuff. But I also wanted to collaborate with Andy Warner. He's one of my favorite nonfiction cartoonists. He's great. He's great. He's written lots of great books. And I saw his stuff and I emailed him and said, hey, want to do a book about aliens? And to my surprise, he wrote me right back. You're a vicious emailer. Just audacious. Cold emails have gotten me far. Yes. So last thing, because you had such a seismic change. What would you go back and tell your younger self just getting into physics for the first time? And I know you, I think you worked in plasma physics for a while and finally settled on particle. Yeah. We'd all love to go back to our 21-year-old, and tell them some things. But what would you say to yourself? Well, look, I got no complaints. I think things worked out pretty well for me. So I'm very happy with how things turned out. I wouldn't change anything for fear of messing up something. That's wonderful in my life. But I think the lesson is you got to listen to yourself. You got to listen to that part inside you that says, this is what I want, or this is not really working. I did a lot of different kinds of physics, plasma physics, solid state physics, that I thought I should be interested in. I thought I would be, but I just, my heart wasn't in it. And there's no good reason for that or bad reason for that. It's not bad or good. It's all subjective. And I tell students who come to work with me, I say, if you're bored, pay attention and go find something that isn't boring to you. Find the thing that grabs you, that makes you think, this is the thing I want to do. Because the whole job in life, science or not, is to figure out who are you? What drives you? What's your passion? And that's also true in science. You've got to find the thing, where you're excited about the big picture questions, but also enjoy the day-to-day work. Not easy to figure out. So only possible if you really pay attention to that voice inside you that says, this is your thing, or this is not really your thing. Go find something else. It's a great lesson. Daniel Whiteson was here, everybody. The book is Do Aliens Speak Physics? It's the book is great. It's super fun. I was surprised. I got on my Kindle, got into it and I'm like, there's cartoons in this. I can handle this. It's super fun. It's really fun. It's super funny. So I love it. Thanks for coming in. This has been a joy. - Thanks very much. Super fun conversation. - Thank you. Bye everybody. That was Daniel Whiteson. Very nice guy. Really smart. Not much to analyze here. Daniel's credentials are bulletproof. PhD from Berkeley, Fulbright at the Niels Bohr Institute. He's been on the Atlas detector at CERN since 2007. And he was part of the team that confirmed the Higgs boson in 2012. He's elected fellow of the American Physical Society and his books have been translated into 23 languages. That guy is the real deal. And the numbers he threw around, those are real. 95% of the universe is dark matter and dark energy. What's that? We've confirmed dark matter through galaxy rotation curves, gravitational lensing, and the cosmic background microwave radiation. So we know it's there. We just have no idea what it is. Every direct detection experiment, Xenon, SuperCDMS, the LHC itself, empty. Nothing. They haven't detected anything. We talked about the Amaterasu particle. That's real. Published in Science 2023. A cosmic ray with 244 exaelectron volts of energy. Exa. That's millions of times more energetic than anything that the Large Collider can produce. And when they traced it back to where it came from, the local void, empty space. There's nothing there that should be capable of producing anything close to that kind of energy. And no one knows why. And then there's this idea that your phone calls you and your phone can detect those particles. Crafis, cosmic rays found in smartphones. He built a working prototype. The camera sensor in your phone uses the same silicon technology as the detectors in CERN. Put your phone face down on a table. A muon passes through. The camera picks it up. Get five or 10 million phones running that app at night, and you've got a cosmic ray telescope the size of the Earth. The Julian Swinger Foundation funded it in 2025 after the NSF passed. It's not science fiction. It's just. Underfunded. Then there's the other stuff. Hartree Field, the philosopher Daniel mentioned. He actually re-derived Newtonian gravity without using numbers. No equations, no fields, just relationships. Closer, farther, more or less. And it works. It means math might not be the language of the universe. It just might be a shortcut. And if that's true, then when Daniel asks whether aliens would do physics the same way we do, the answer might really be no. Not because they're wrong, because our map of the universe might be shaped more by our brains than by reality. That's something I hadn't considered before. We've got a model that predicts experimental results to nine decimal places. And Daniel had a moment as an undergrad where he saw that precision and thought he was looking at the face of the universe itself. Then he spent the next 20 years learning philosophy and realized, maybe not. Maybe that precision just means our map is really, really good. It doesn't prove the territory looks the same. Daniel is one of those rare scientists who's done the hard work and still has the courage to say we might be thinking about this wrong. Not from the outside, but from inside the machine. And that takes guts. His book is "Do Aliens Speak Physics?" co-written with cartoonist Andy Warner. Grab it from Amazon. It's surprisingly fun and funny and approachable. You can find Daniel on X and @DanielWhiteson. His podcast with Kelly Wienersmith is "Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe." It's also worth your time. And if you want more on the simulation question that Daniel and I got into, I did a whole episode on that. We live in a simulation. If this conversation got you thinking about what's real and what's just the model, that episode won't answer your question, but it might get you thinking differently about our reality. Until next time, be safe, be kind, and know that you are appreciated. ♪ Oh, oh, oh, yeah ♪ ♪ I played Philippians and Aaron ♪ ♪ The theory of 51 ♪ ♪ A secret code inside the Bible said I would ♪ ♪ I love my UFOs and paranormal fun ♪ ♪ As well as music ♪ ♪ So I'm singing like I should ♪ ♪ But then another conspiracy theory ♪ ♪ Becomes the truth, my friends ♪ ♪ And it never ends ♪ ♪ No, it never ends ♪ I fear the crab cat and I got stuck inside Mel's home with MKUltra being only two away. Did Stanley Kubrick fake the moon landing alone on a film set? Were the shadow people there? The Roswell aliens just fought the smiling man, I'm told. And his name was Code. And I can't believe I'm dancing with the fish. Heck, the fish are Thursday nights, Wednesday, J-2. And the white balls have been beat all through the night. All I ever wanted was to just hear the truth. So the white balls have been beat all through the night. The white balls have been beat all through the night. We're in a simulation, don't you worry though The Black Knight said a lot, he told me so I can't believe I'm dancing with the fish Heck, we'll fish out Thursday nights with AJ too And the white balls are my feet all through the night All I ever wanted was to just hear the truth So the white balls are my feet all through the night Heck, we'll fish out Thursday nights with AJ Thank you. Yeah, Gertie loves to dance on the dance floor Because she is a camel And camels love to dance When the feeling is right on wasting time Gertie loves to dance Gertie loves to dance Oh, oh, oh, O'Reilly Check engine, ABS, or maintenance light on? Oh, oh, oh, O'Reilly Auto Parts