Banijay Rights on Adapting Its Catalogue for a Changing Market, Global Distribution, and IP Strategy

(upbeat music) - You're listening to Inside Content, the TV Industry Podcast. This show is brought to you by Three Vision, a global TV industry consultancy specializing in content acquisition, strategy, research, and business development. Each episode, we give you VIP access to the views and experiences of senior TV executives and discuss the latest TV industry trends and insights. - Hello and welcome to Inside Content. I'm Jack Davidson, EVP at Three Vision. And in today's episode, I'm joined by Simon Cox, EVP content acquisitions at Banner J Rights, the distribution powerhouse behind one of the world's largest TV content catalogs. Simon and I dive into how Banner J Rights navigates the ever changing world of content distribution. From the enduring appeal of crime drama and the shift in streamer strategies to the growth of Aboard and the renewed focus on windowing, we also explore the evolving appetite for IP driven projects and what's in store at MIPCOM with Banner J's exciting upcoming slate. - Introducing Video Markets Tracker from Three Vision, your go-to source for global TV data. We offer regularly updated regional and global reports covering pay TV, S-Fod, A-Vod and FAST across Africa, Mina, the Americas, Europe and Asia Pacific. Makes smarter decisions with insights you can trust. Learn more at threevision.tv. Now onto the episode. - Hello and welcome to Inside Content. My name is Jack Davidson. I am EVP at Three Vision. And on this episode today, I'm joined by Simon Cox from Banner J Rights. Good afternoon, Simon. I hope all is well with you. - Thanks, Jack, pleasure to be here. - Many of our listeners, I would actually probably guess all of them, but I always have to be careful where our listeners come from. Well, we're familiar with Banner J. Banner J Entertainment is a French multinational TV production distribution company, a very large one. In fact, I believe you've described as the world's largest international producer and distributor with lots of different production countries in lots of different countries. And with that, you therefore are the owner of a very large multi-genre catalog with hundreds of thousands of hours of programming. Rather than introduce Simon, I'm going to ask Simon to give our listeners an overview of your role at Banner J and how Banner J rights fits into that bigger part of Banner J Entertainment. So I'll hand over to you. - Thanks, Jack. And that's actually a very good introduction. But yes, so Banner J Rights is the global distribution arm of the Banner J Entertainment Group. As you mentioned, we have over 130 production labels in 22 territories in the production business. Yes, the distribution business has a catalog of nearly 200,000 hours and we are a global distributor that represents not only content from the Banner J Entertainment production entities, but it also represents a lot of third-party content. So there's a catalog that is represented globally and is a very mixed and diverse catalog. I am EVP of content and acquisitions in Banner J Rights. So I have a responsibility for all content being acquired or IP being acquired for global distribution. And that's across all genres and all media. So that's for that's for global distribution and there is colleagues in Banner J Entertainment that work on that as well. And across all scripted and non scripted. As you, I'm sure you'll list this be where we also have a separate business called Banner J Kits and Family that runs the children's business. That's separate tires. So, yes, a very big remit for as much content as possible. That's great. I, without getting too much detail of what I've done over my life and where I've worked in the industry, I always find it fascinating kind of how different types of content, by that I mean kind of sort of genres, but then also within, well, type for that be scripted unscripted or genres, whether it be drama, comedy, and then the finer points of those genres. I always find it fascinating how different sorts of ebb and flow in terms of both in taste in terms of the consumer, but also in terms of how businesses focus on them and how businesses decide kind of where they should be investing and what's the kind of thing they want to do and how do they make sure they're targeting the right types of content for the market and then I guess ultimately for the consumer. And given in your role, you're kind of in charge of that acquisition team and kind of responsible for kind of setting that kind of overall, I guess, I guess strategy. Selecting what to do is to me is a real challenge. How do you kind of focus and prioritize, often I hear strong narratives, whether that's like crime, drama, or maybe cosy crime or kind of European, you shift to our mode, like how do you kind of focus and prioritize the different areas? - Look, it's about having a diverse catalog with something for every buyer. You know, you'll have seen reports everywhere of everyone saying they want everything, which is not really true. You need to have something that serves a multitude of different buyers. It's having that awareness of what is traveling and what is in demand in a very good position that having production operations in all these territories, we have a bit more awareness of what is being commissioned. So you give that sort of guidance of what might be in demand. And for me, it's looking at content that will complement and grow our slate and a mix of, you know, those traditional genres that do work, you know, crime and drama will always sell. And supplementing that with some really strong narrative or authored pieces that are just a bit different and unique. You know, following and setting some trends, you know, looking at different genres that come in and out of fashion and in and out of taste and making sure there is a good mix of non scripted that again, speaking to different national cultural identities and messages and themes that are going on in the zeitgeist, it's just making sure there's a good mix of that. BannerJ in general is very well known for its entertainment and formats offering. So as well, it's a building around those general entertainment and those formats to make sure we've got something that serves the market in those genres that we are very well known for delivering quality product in. So looking at all those genres that are being commissioned, taking a view on as much product as possible to make sure it fits in our mix and the type of content that's for international appeal. As you say, Craig, we'll always be in demand. That will let me jump in. Yeah, there's always a demand for that, I guess. And I guess having that kind of diverse portfolio, very diverse for you because of the breadth of your kind of production companies, and suppose you can still take risks because you have that diverse portfolio and that's something kind of the business just has to do. Distribution is all about taking risk. In the same way that commissioners are ordering product based on a pet or a piece of paper, distributions have to do the same thing. We're taking a risk based on a pet or a script and taking the same creative view that commissions are. So it's having that creative eye mixed with a commercialized to make sure there is an opportunity there. And there's often a good opportunity in a lot of different products that in spaces that you wouldn't necessarily expect them to be. Yeah, and I guess the industry itself, I'm talking kind of broad brush strokes, which is a bit simplistic to me. But the industry has had some kind of challenges and being complicated kind of over the last, complicated over the last few years with kind of the budget restraints and kind of content austerity and kind of maybe end of peak TV if you want to pick those headlines. It's worth noting that kind of energy rights. I don't think I should have checked this one but last year's broadcaster distributed survey for the first time ever, you talked to the list of distributors with I think it was close to 400 million in revenues and that was up about nine or 10% I think. So you must be doing something right. But despite that, it's been a challenging environment for streamers and broadcasters. And so they've had kind of content budgets that face significant pressures which then that feeds into the whole production community and everybody else. So have these challenges kind of impacted your approach in any way? Well, there's no getting away from the fact that, as you say, the world has been challenging the past couple of years. But there is always and there will always be a demand for storytelling, whether that is scripted or non-scripted. There is an insatiable consumer demand just how those consumers are demanding it has changed. And there's a phrase we've used a few times, everything changes but everything stays the same. It's just who is buying and when they're buying has changed. And free 12 linear, I would say has been fairly consistent. Streamers, yeah, there's no denying they have been buying less but they are still buying. And you could argue a lot of those streamers have gone a little bit more mainstream than these to be. And that is a good thing. There's no denying that perhaps pay TV, traditional pay TV platforms have faded away but that space has been filled by AVOD platforms which is a very good business for us. So it's just about finding those opportunities, the content that works for a broad audience that is going to appeal to as many buyers as possible. And there is opportunity for that. And I think a lot of that domestic commissioning, not necessarily UK but generally, the commissioning has shifted in a way that acquisitions has shifted in a way. It's about having a product that buyers want whether that's an acquisition buyer or commissioner that is going to serve their audience and bring that audience to that particular platform. - Right, and I think that's that's injured because the way you talked about that, you talked about sort of the different sort of changing behavior perhaps, not necessarily the right word of the different types of service and some of them coming in and maybe replacing. But there's been kind of some of the problems you hear about, particularly for UK companies, is sort of holes that have come into sort of projects from the US, but I guess it's more that we're hearing that you're just having to form different types of partnership, maybe with different partners. But because as you say, people still work content, there's still a need for the content. It's just maybe the tried and tested routes to market for projects over the last few years isn't so secure anymore. So you have to find kind of different partners to make the projects work. Does that sort of make sense? - Yeah, I mean, it depends how many partners you need for that particular project and how much funding you need for that project. You know, there's perhaps no one size fits all. Like there probably never was a one size fits all, but certainly in this day and age, there is no one size fits all model. And finding those partners that are aligned with you and have the same long-term view of content for you is important. And you know, some streamers move to a global position, some streamers move to a domestic position and do what to partner and look at things differently. Or looking at how domestic streaming platforms that are connected to free-to-air broadcasters, how they look at things differently. So look, it is forever changing. There will always be different partnerships that come and different partnerships that go. I would always say you've got to have the right partner for the right project, not just creatively, but one that's brought in for the long-term. You want sustainable franchises that can return. - Right, yeah, and kind of the next kind of, the step on from that for me in my head, which doesn't necessarily always have the best logical kind of process, but is that kind of we ourselves here at Dream business, but a lot of time looking at kind of the different windowing approaches and the sort of innovations there, which was quite a big area of focus kind of this year, really throughout the whole of this year. It's amazing, it's September already. But and tracking the flow and windowing of content in global markets is a sort of big thing we did. Lots of looking at kind of the different US kind of activity, sort of co-exclusivity, streamer deals, like kind of Disney plus and Paramount with different kind of local broadcasters. Lots of things going on basically. And where services are sort of finding synergies within the way they window and sometimes sharing kind of upfront, people realizing up from what they can do and how they can kind of share content. Sometimes it's distributors kind of who need to sell more, need to fortify their revenues kind of by selling more, kind of might be where commissions might be slowing, therefore they have to make more out of the content they have. With that, the market for services is quite fragmented, so lots of content might still be undiscovered. And I think Netflix had a lot of success over the last year or so with kind of library content, so mirrors that. So why not more window in, which is sort of what people are looking at now? And I noticed actually yesterday that kind of the recent PAC survey said that kind of secondary rights revenues have grown 36% in 2024, which is kind of coming back to very, very high levels. And I guess, do you kind of, as a distributor, do you see that as a, do you see those changes? Do you see that kind of that looking for more windows and looking to find ways to kind of share and get synergies between services? - We have always tried to maximize windowing. And that's been the same for many, many years. And that was the same, you know, 10 years ago with Pay TV, it was always the same windowing strategy. I think as you say, it's just who's taking which window and in which order? I think those dialogues with buyers about how long their windows are and how long exclusive windows are and sharing have become more frequent. And I think it is about where the audience is and how do you bring the audience in? So they are dialogues that are ongoing all the time. I agree with it, they're important. And it is about sharing, I think, to maximize, you know, looking at, I think the point you made about secondary revenues or secondary domestic markets is super important. And no one can deny or ignore the fact of how valuable those second, third or fourth, fifth windows are. And brands that are recognizable to a domestic audience will have a long-term value. And we will and have always looked very carefully at how we can maximize those and how we can share them. Looking at, you know, perhaps you're looking at the fourth, fifth window, you're going to avod platforms and you're doing them all non-existently at the same time because they have all different audiences. It's still reaching a different audience. Yeah, I think, I think your point is important. I don't think a lot of people ever stopped kind of windowing to optimize revenues. I think the exception that sort of put an interesting kind of point in selling the way we trends and look at things is the US studios who launched D2C services because they did in that period sort of stop, almost stop entirely, but they kind of, they kind of, and until the investment community said, you know what, you have to make a profit one day, you can't just chase subs forever. And then that kind of about face happens. So we should sort of chase, I think that in itself has probably impacted everyone a bit because everyone has still been doing it. But as you say, there's got to be adjustments in different ways you've got to look at it. Yeah, yes, I do agree with you. But there's big US studios with their own direct consumer offerings with a lot of US originating content have got a different approach and a different strategy. You know, we don't necessarily just think about US or English language content. Think about those French language dramas that sell very well in the secondary French market. You know, all the local formats that we produce, it's important for us to retain the IP to sell second, third, fourth, fifth windows in many years in that particular market. You know, a master chef in a European territory will have value in that European territory in five years time. So it's important just to keep an eye on not just that US style content or American or British content. There is multi-winded strategy to be very mindful of for each territory around the world, its local market. That's really interesting, actually. I mean, you, obviously, we've mentioned a few times, your mass at the other 130 or production companies in different markets and your catalogue kind of therefore has that diversity in terms of it's just simply from its country of origin and the language of the content. And there's sort of, to me, there's no doubt that kind of the world's a very different place and it was 20 years ago, in terms of kind of then when the possibility of a foreign language show, sorry, a non-English, I'd say, language show, being sold in kind of numerous international markets was pretty much zero. I mean, and that's just dramatically kind of changed over the years, kind of helped by lots of things, maybe not just the world's globalization, but also people like Netflix and other things. But that opportunity with all of those different kind of languages of content you have, kind of, what's the sort of response your clients have to sort of non-English versus English? You painted sort of quite a positive picture just then, is it kind of, is that true? Well, I think I've got a couple of points to make on that and it's sort of for debate rather than strict thoughts. But there's no denying that inscripted English language is the preferred or the most commonly sold, I should say, language. And I don't think there's any research that doesn't prove that. So we do very well with English language drama. Now, you corrected yourself on the word, I agree. I don't use it anymore at all. We do talk about English and non-English, but the foreign language, quite unquote, that you used, I think the important thing to think about with that word is foreign to who? So, you know, Spanish, language drama to a Latin American audience is still a language that's recognizable, but still foreign. So it's thinking about the origination of where that language comes from and how much affinity someone has to that language. And, you know, French language content will sell to French-speaking Belgium and French-speaking Canada quite quickly. It's foreign, but still a recognizable language. So it's an interesting slight grain of it, but something to think about. And I would also say, you said earlier about, perhaps it was Netflix that opened up the world to other languages. Turn the clock back 10 years before they were doing that. Scandinavian Swedish drama has probably-- probably-- and some Isaac Eier, but probably was one of the first, you know, they created that Nordic Noir, and it traveled very well across Europe. And, you know, the French and the Germans have always done their American content and other content. So there's always been a travelability of good storytelling between territories. There is probably different languages that have different appeal in different markets. And that is something that's undeniable that has to be looked at. But there'll always be opportunities there for good stories to tell. And, you know, it's very difficult to get non-English to travel into the English markets. Not impossible. Difficult. But, you know, look at the bridge. That did very well-- sorry, it's wrong-- did very well in the UK. So there is opportunities there. It's just finding those the ones that travel in the really strong storytelling. Right, right. And you mentioned a couple of questions ago. Time of-- you mentioned the avod word. And another one of the themes of the past, kind of, let's say, probably 12 to 24 months, is that increased activity in this kind of-- I'll say, in the ad-funded streaming world. And that ad-funded model has seen kind of a lot more attention. Not just, kind of-- well, not just sort of pure-- what I've called-- to kind of just general avod, but also kind of b-vod, so broadcast of odd, also fast, which is a little bit a lot of attention. And you've done a lot in this space, both avod and fast. And how you mentioned it sort of filling, sort of, replacing some of the pay TV kind of decline. But how do you see that kind of avod? Or market evolving? And what kind of-- what might work in terms of what you're doing in that space? Well, we've got a whole digital division that Sean Keywell runs, and I won't speak on his behalf on how well he's running that business, and we're doing incredibly well in that space. Avod's traditionally led by YouTube, and there's been plenty of research that, you know, how well YouTube are doing, and how they're adds to doing, and how much revenue they're generating. That is a very good space to be. And I think, in my view, avod has been a strong growing business that's been growing, you know, coming out of COVID and the recovery of the ad markets. You can't deny how well those platforms been growing. It is dominated by the US and Canada, and then other markets like the UK and Australia, New Zealand, Germany are coming up fast behind. But it has become a very good sort of revenue, the good source of consumer engagement. It allows us the data to see what's being consumed. And there is a way of really exploiting your catalogue. Yes, Avod is a grown market. You can't deny how important it is to exploit your catalogue. You know, it is a way to perhaps find ways to generate revenue on multiple hours that have not been actively exploited for a long time. And I personally find it fascinating that you see shows cutting through and finding an audience that you didn't think would. And vice versa shows that you think that's going to be a slam dunk hit in that sort of space. Don't quite have the same resonance that they have in the past. So it's, I think it's an important market in general for distributors. They're, of course, not in the original space. And I don't think there will be an original space for some time yet. There's some exception to that. But it's a very important business for us. Yeah, I think you're right. Obviously, Aval gets come to get to buy a fact that some Avalds are actually maybe part of a big, well, part of a big US network, like Chubi or part of a so kind of the rules there are slightly different in terms of what might pop up as what they make all and original. But but you're right. I think kind of it does seem like a kind of great opportunity to kind of to work your catalog and get more more content out there, right? And do you do you fit in the same breath as Avald, kind of the broadcaster Vod offers? Is that where you would fit those in a discussion? Yes, I know. You've got a mix there between there's still licensing content as a linear broadcaster word. All they're doing web shared deals. I think it really depends on which character you're in and who you're talking to, but they are very open to different types of deals. Absolutely. They're looking at both sorts and different sources of IP. Right. Yes, I do. It makes it one of the same in the same bag. And the revenues coming from the same place. It's just again, it's looking at those VODs, who they're audiences and who they're trying to attract. And that will dictate the type of content they're looking. Right, right, absolutely. And in terms of you mentioned, you mentioned IP in that last discussion. One other thing that we found interesting actually, it came out of us, the tracking work we do with our trailer trucker product, was we look at the source of projects that are premiering each season and in 24, by the end of 24, there was sort of marked decline in, this is actually only scripted content, but there was a marked decline in the share of premieres that were coming from original concepts. I know it's a little bit tricky because some of them are kind of a literary kind of come from literary kind of sources. And that doesn't classify as an original concept. In some cases, it might almost be a fairly original concept. But is there a need at the moment for proof and IP for kind of scripted? And I guess in terms of the format has been proven as well. Is that something that's quite, quite more important now at the one in the current climate? Inscripted, I could sit and debate this for an hour with you probably, but inscripted in terms of pre-existing IP, it doesn't hurt. I think sometimes it's extremely useful, and it is a good selling point. But on another hand, original IP can be very strong. Look at adolescence, original IP, not based on book IP, versus Warfall, absolutely based on the best-selling book, both extremely important pieces of television that have done it incredibly well. I personally think inscripted a good script as a good script and a good idea as a good idea. And that, if that happens to be from book IP, great. But for our slate, it doesn't necessarily have to be, you know, we've got a good strong mix between book IP, sort of character-based IP, as in the back of my head with Bergerac, or original, like it's an interesting one. In formats, you know, proven format IP is really important, and I think some characters in the world are perhaps a bit more risk-averse in formats. So having a proven territory success into the second season is the golden egg, but it's still taking a risk on new format IP is something we do a lot of, and it's about the strength of Badger Entertainment in terms of how those territories can take format IP and adapt it to those local markets and reinvent stuff as well, and how we can look at nostalgia and archive IP and how you can reinvent that from modern audience. Right. I mean, I think you almost said it the way I would say it in the middle of less sort of, if it's good TV, it's good TV, it doesn't really matter where it's come from. But yeah, it's just interesting to see. Yeah, I've said for years, good script is a good script, and good script will eventually get made. It may take a long time, but we'll get made. I remember the story from quite a few sketches to ashes, was in development for eight years. Look at the incredible show that was, so it's good scripts will get made. Yeah. Yeah. So talking about good things, let's move on to what you've got coming up. What is it September 11th today, we're recording this, it will be, it will be on as soon. What have you got coming up, it's exciting that you'll be, you'll be taking to met. So from met this year, we continue with the strong slate. I think starting with scripted, it is, as we were just talking about with IP, it's a diverse mix between strong IP created by a big name talent versus book IP and original IP. You know, one of the key things on slate is Richard Gads next drama called Half Man that's being produced by Mam Taw for the BBC and HBO. Just an incredible piece of drama that, you know, hard-hitting, strong cast, drama IP between Richard Gads and Jamie Bell between them. So that's going to be a very noisy piece. That was, I think that was a clip shown in Edinburgh last month. So there's been a little bit of a tease already out there. So there's a, a strong drama from, from strong talent. On top of that, we have the new adaptation of the barbeque tale about Bradford book, Woman of Substance, being produced by Channel 4 by the Forge, with Brenda Bletting in that lead is Emma Hart. So a modern retelling of that classic book, a strong piece of IP. Also from the Forge, which Channel 4 is a new drama called Falling, which is a story of love versus lusts, which is Keely Halls and Papa S.I. do as a priest in the vicar and how they, sorry, priest in the nun, I should say, and how their lives collide and does love turn them apart. That is written by Jack Thorne. So a huge piece of writing talent across the board. We've also got, in terms of talking about IP, we've got a new reboot of the, having a book, Valenda, being produced in its original Swedish language for TV 4 by Josh E.R. Bird. And that is going to be starring one of the Scars God brothers, that's just a Scars God. So strong IP, very well known book IP, that is being adapted for a, for a modern audience. And a, from another third party in Australia, being produced by Hoodlam for Parent Plus, is two years later, which is a lovely, beautiful, romantic comedy drama about two people sharing a bus every day before COVID, and then COVID hits, and they don't teach them for two years, got to two years later. Do they get married? And following their journey of, you know, dates as they're going on, can they, can they build a life together after being ripped apart? There's just a couple of highlights, you know, returning, as I mentioned earlier about sustainable franchises, we've got some great returning series. So very recently announced, SCS Rogue Heroes being produced by Kudos for the BBC and MGM Plus, is returning for a third, very explosive run. And I mentioned earlier, and it's behind me is Bergerac, they're currently producing a second season down in Jersey, hopefully the weather's a bit better down there than it's in London right now. So this is a great piece of nostalgic, well-known IP being produced for UK TV. Last year we worked with Playground Entertainment to launch the Hard Acres on Channel 5, as a Victorian Registered Richestory. That is again, is back for second season and filming right now. Senora Volpe, again, something very different, Amelia Foxx as a expi, solving a mystery each week in Italy. That being produced for Acorn by Route 24, again, Story of the Week, Cozy Crime, Thriller Peace, has found a very strong audience internationally. And then we were talking about non-English language, non-English language drama earlier. From Bungist New Jersey to France, France to Division, we have disenchanted it, which is a book adaptation of a 2022 novel of the same name, which is following the story of mysterious disappearance of a 15-year-old, in a big case that shot the entire nation, as a full-part crime thriller in French, and from a Dutch label and our film, made a series last year called Anonymous. That's been produced for a second season for the MPO, which is a vigilante man solving crimes in secret from his family. It's a great high-energy thriller. So the overall script to say is diverse and broad, and has a lot of action and adventure and IP. It's a real mix of dramas. That sounds great. I think personally, I particularly interested in the new valender adaptation, as I always love those books in the Scarsagons are great, so that'd be interesting to see. I mean, it's amazing that it's been over 15 years since the kind of renovations of the BBC. It's time for a new version and then engine his native language, as well, which is a good authenticity to it. Yeah, I think so. I think so. I mean, I thought the valender's show was one with Kenneth Vano, was a great show, and I found it sort of interesting kind of the premise of it being in English, but it did sit in the back of my head slightly, troubling me sometimes, but so we'll see. That'd be great. That's that's really interesting, and that's great stuff. What do you have a feel for MipCon this year, does it feel like there's going to be lots of people there? It's like a good buzz around it. I think so. My diary is already looking very busy. I think there is people coming back to the market. Yes, it's challenging times, but as I say, people still only content, so they are out there looking at the market, as you noted about earlier about the big US studios and their direct consumer platforms, and then general, the volume coming through these traditional output deals is down, so content from the big distributors is in demand. Yeah, I, the people we talk to, it's all, it's all standing pretty positive. Yeah, tell us about the unscripted you've got coming up from it. So as I say, unscripted is broad and diverse, general entertainment for us. We've got a very varied mix of titles coming to the market. Akala, who's the one named Horat-Loriath from the UK, he is doing a film for a BBC called Akala divided Kingdom based on his book called "Natives", which is his exploration of the current state of culture in the UK, so it's a very different narrative to the cultural society right now. A friend of ours here at Banger's Bear Grills, he's got a new series of BBC called "Wild Reckoning", which is being produced by the Dragon House, which is the Welsh production of work of art here at Banger Entertainment. This is bear on his island in Wales and a team of experts helping people resolve sort of deep personal rifts and personal traumas through using, you know, mentors, survival experts, psychologists, you know, taking those audience, others, civilians or contributors through emotional journeys. That's a 16-part series of BBC, which is going to be wonderful. We've represented for a few years now, Eva Longoria, so she did search for Mexico and searching for Spain. She's often her travels again and she's now searching for France, so she's got a new authentic travelogue series looking for food across the whole of the French nation, which should be exciting. We've also announced Mission to Space with the YouTube and TikTok sensation Frances Bautroisi, who was recently announced as host of the Grand Tour. So he is going off to do something that he's always wanted to do, which is going to space. So he's training to be an astronaut and he's been across to NASA to do all of the training. It's a wonderful watch that's trying to be made for Channel 4. He's quite a character, absolutely wonderful, lovely film. Sorry, two parter. That's great, because I mean, that's in that space that seems to be an interesting one right now, where companies are trying to bring those, bring influences in from the Curator Economy to kind of more mainstream productions. And so it'll be interesting to see how that goes. Yeah, I mean, there's not many, as you said, there's not many talent yet that have broken through from created to traditional mainstream. Him cracking into the Grand Tour as well is, you know, he's going mainstream presenting. And it's, it's, yeah, I like him and what he brings to the audience and it's a different way of speaking to an audience. So I think that will, that'll do well. And I think you've seen, obviously very sadly, that was the also one pasta way. We are bringing to market as well, the one off dock for the BBC from expectation, which is following Ozzie's journey back to the UK before he passed away, which is a beautiful film that the BBC will launch, hopefully later this autumn. That will be, yeah, I look forward to seeing that actually, that should be a good film. No, that's great. I mean, you're going to be, sounds like you're going to be busy at mid, sounds like we're busy performing as well, but I think that's probably probably time for us. I mean, that was great. That was really good to chat and thank you so much for your time. I am, if I don't see you before, I wish you the best at MIP and we'll have to catch up sometime soon. Thank you so much. Yeah. It should be a good MIP. You know, slate is strong. The content's out there. I think the market is coming back alive after a bit of a tough time. I think I hope to see some good news stories from everyone, hopefully, because we need a good strong, healthy markets should be, yeah, should be good market and yeah, thank you for your time. It's been great to chat. Great. Thanks for listening to this episode of Inside Content. The TV industry podcast brought to you by Three Vision. With decades of TV industry experience and real world success, we know the ins and outs of the market to let nobody else to learn more about our TV consultancy services. Head to threevision.tv.