Back In England Camp

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To the biggest stories, the selections of Will Joseph, Gloss's informed centre looking for his first cap in four years, and sales Joe Margin. He's also in after returning from France. They are both coming up on the pod, as is the England boss Steve Borthwick will be speaking to Borthwick about that lester against Northampton dust up, and whether the Prem this season is preparing his players well enough for test rugby. But first up is Joe Margin. Joe, good to see. He must be so good to be back after all this time. Honestly, it's brilliant to be back like I've really enjoyed getting in. It's a bit like the new kid being in again, but it's been really good. Lots of new faces since I was last in, but everyone's been brilliant. Really enjoyed training today and looking to see what happens. Yeah, basically been brought back in at the first time of asking off to coming back from from France to join. Sail, did you expect it to happen so quickly getting back in? No, I was hoping, and I think that's the main thing I was hoping to be back in. Obviously, all the time I was away, I wanted to be back playing for England, so to be in this first camp, the second alignment camp I'm buzzing for. Is there anything you've noticed different compared to when you were at the World Cup in 2023 with Steve Hawthorke set up? It's a lot of the faces, to be honest. I think it's been the squads a lot different. It was a lot of faces that I knew had been coming in and out of camp for a while before the World Cup stuff, so then as soon as I came in this time and there was a lot of new faces, it was different, but it was really good. When you were over in France, it must be to give you that clarity because you're not able to be selected for England. It's not as if you're you're playing over first out from saying trying to impress the England coach. You know you're out of contention while you're over there, but you must be looking on at England like a fan, and I imagine thinking of ways you could improve the setup if you got back in. Yeah, absolutely. I've watched every game and I just wanted the boys to do the best, and yeah, it was strange watching from afar, especially on match days and stuff when you actually go on a week off yourself rather than you'll be in the mixer and training and playing with the boys, but it was good to see the boys do really well, and I'm looking forward to being back in the mix, hopefully. So 28 caps, I think it is, and you played in World Cup semi-finals, but yet having been a few years out the setup, you mentioned a bit being a bit like the new boy, so that's a weird dynamic, isn't it? You're a new boy, you've got a load of caps and played in massive World Cup games and won a World Cup bronze medal. Yeah, it's a little bit strange, but again, it's the same thing with rugby, isn't it? Like as soon as you get on the field, none of that really matters. You're just one of the 15 or one of the 23 who's trying to get the job done on the day, so that's what I'm pushing for, that's what I want to be part of, and hopefully in this autumn, I can be part of that. Your game was a really good nick when you left to go to France, but it's just saying, playing all throughout that World Cup and one of England's key men in the midfield, how has your game changed, developed improved since being in France? I think more experienced-wise to be honest, obviously in the top 14 you come up against a lot of different competition, there's a lot of three athletes who can do a lot of magical stuff, and I think the size as well in top 14 is one of the noticeable ones, so learning how to manage that a little bit and also just being in a new environment, doing something different, getting out of the comfort zone was probably really good for my game overall. Yeah, you missed out on a load of England caps, but no doubt I've got a load of life experiences, just tell us what those three years were like. I suppose off the pitch as much as anything. Yeah, honestly, both on and off the pitch, it was awesome, like experience to semi-finals over there and actually one in the middle year that I was there, we had a bit of a relegation kind of battle year, so actually every year that I was there I was doing lots of learning, and then off the field there was loads of stuff going on, I got engaged over there, like I was developing my relationship stuff with my wife now, so it was all big stuff out there. Yeah, in terms of the RFU ruling, you guys who go to France have to accept it, do you think it's something that if the RFU were to change it would benefit the England team, because guys are developing their game once they're out there? I think it's one of those that we know the rules, and I made the decision when I went out there, at the time I got told I wasn't going to be playing for England in that time, and yeah, there was lots of salary-cut stuff going on, so for me it was probably a good time to go and experience something different, obviously then there was a bit of a change of of coach and sit up and I ended up in the mixer, but overall we know the rules and it's one of those where all the time I was there I wanted to be back in and playing for England, so. Yeah, you mentioned you got married recently, following on Instagram, you're doing up a house proper job, imagine that to keep you busy away from rugby. Yeah, absolutely, that's a bit of the time off now doing that, but yeah, we've moved up North now and we're really enjoying up there, it's another project, so yeah, really enjoying getting amongst it. Yeah, now you've got a famous father-in-law, and if my father-in-law Mark is listening, he's great and we've all got father-in-laws that we really like, but to have the Premier League's all-time record goal scorer as your father-in-law is a little bit unique. Do you talk shop with Alan about sport, high performance, dealing with pressure, that kind of thing? Yeah, we talk here and there about it, I think any sportsman really is going to be the same, you're always curious about other sports, and I think, well, I know nothing about football really, and I've actually started to know a little bit more now, obviously being in the relationship by Amman also, I think him the other side, like is learning more about rugby, which he didn't really know too much about before, so I think just bouncing off those kind of ideas and sharing stuff from different sports is always going to be natural. Have you got him into it into rugby? I came to the game last weekend, so I mean, we didn't win, but it was a shame, but it was in Newcastle, so it wasn't too far from him. Did you debrief it afterwards? A little couple of chats, yeah, but nothing too crazy. I'm intrigued what his speech was like as the father of the bride. He's probably done a few after dinners, I imagine he took the Hellster. He did a really good speech, and my best man, James Lang, he did a really good speech as well, so there was a lot of pressure after that, but yeah, it was a good wedding all round. I try to think, who goes first? Father Bright goes before best man. We did father of the bride, and then we did best man, and then it was me to finish off, which, yeah, again, you've got your following Alan Shira, and then he's got a foot, yeah, there's fair bits full of that. Yeah, it was tough, because they both absolutely nailed it, and I was a bit nervous, but, yeah, it was a good day all round, and I think everyone enjoyed themselves. Okay, so looking forward now, you got your encampment of Tuesday night, then back to play for sale, then back all being well again on the Monday, so it's taking a little bit of getting used to for you guys having to sort of get onto England business, crack on for two days, and then back to your clubs? Yeah, absolutely, so finish Shira on Tuesday, Thursday train with the club, and then we go down to Bath for a game there, which is really important for us, and then just got a hope that I can be back in the mixer again when Monday comes. Yeah, and just on that, you're probably having to make up a bit of ground, because there are guys who have been in the setup come last summer, six nations, and there's not much time in camp, so it'd be understandable if Steve Borthick was to err on the side of people he's been with recently, so do you have any, I mean, you want to play, you want to start, I imagine, are you putting any proper fixed goals on the next month? No, I think the main thing for me is just to get myself familiar with of what's going on in camp, and also not to dip my toe into actually just go in and be like, you know what, it's a short time in here, it's only a two, three day camp, so I've got to do all I can to get my put the best foot forward, and if I can do that, then we'll see what happens. I wish you well, thanks so much to us. Thanks very much. Thanks very much, you're welcome. Right, that's Joe Marche, and speaking to us here in the England team hotel, Will Joseph on the way and the England boss Steve Borthick, but Alex Low, Chief Robert Correspondent of the Times, it's worth back on the pod. Back on the pod, yes. Your profile picture is you, with a rugby union weekly microphone on the Auckland Harbour. It is. It shows the talking about pride in this podcast. We have your own pod. - My WhatsApp picture is holding a road-bunion weekly microphone. - Yeah, how does that keep you down? - If you're the time's boss, you'll be thinking, hold on. Not quite right, but it shows the esteem with which you hold the pot and vice versa. As I say, well, Joseph coming up, and Steve Hawthorne coming, loads to get through with both of them. But one on Joe Martin, were you surprised to see him back? Do you think a big part of the, is the fact he's got 28 caps and he's been here before? - I'm not surprised in the least to see him. As soon as he signed for sale, I thought he'd be in at the earliest opportunity. I didn't really count the summer. Steve Borthwick trusted him enough to play him and outside centre in a World Cup semi-final. I think he'd have had 30 more caps, had he not already signed for sale from say? He fits exactly the mold. Steve Borthwick wants from, certainly from a World Cup squad contender. I think a proper frontline contender to be in the 23, because he plays 13, he plays wing. He's brilliant in the air, quick across the ground, great footwork, which makes him a threat in attack, but it also makes him an excellent defender. So he's versatile. He ticks all the boxes that Steve Borthwick wants, and his selection is definitely based on reputation and what he can bring. I don't think he's really torn it up quite yet for sale sharks, but Steve Borthwick trusts him and knows him, and I think it will allow Borthwick to move Tommy Freeman back to being a frontline wing and kind of cool the jets on that experiment of Tommy being a 13, because they don't need him, because Joe Martin can be the 13 slasher wing. Hold that thought, because, as you say, if Martin is being selected partly from reputation and experience, one man who is definitely an on-form is Will Joseph, he's next up on the pod. And here he is back in the England set up four years on from his solitary cab against Australia in 2022. So Will, I guess that feels a long time ago now. - Yeah, that was a very long time ago, and being back here, it's quite strange for me, it almost feels a little bit deja vu because you've got the same emotions coming in, like I almost feel a little bit like a new player, even though I know a lot of the lads and like I've been here before, but it's been four years, I think, so I feel like almost a new player, and I'm just really excited to be back in and showcase what I can do. - Yeah, you must have changed so much in that four years, I mean, not just as a player, but as a bloke as well, 'cause you were just a kid back then. - Yeah, I think the last time I was here, Irish had just gone down, and then I just started with, yeah, it was just pretty World Cup 2023, and then I just started with Quins, and then I spent two years at Quins, I've lost here and in my left ear, and I'm now at Gloucester, and I feel like I'm really enjoying it, really enjoying my rugby there. We've obviously started the season really well, and I feel like they've given me a platform to showcase what I can do and bring out the best rugby. - Loathe on a watch about Gloucester, because as you said, the whole club's flying at the moment. We mentioned your ear, that sounded so random. Talked to us about how that all came about. - I was very random. I was actually training one day, we went and then ear felt a bit funny, and then we had a swimming session, and I got in the pool and then got out, and then I couldn't ear out my left ear, and then I've seen a lot of doctors, and they're, well, my understanding is it was an also immune disease, so my body's just sort of like overreacted to something that's maybe gone on in my ear, and then it's just shut off the nerves to be able to hear. But it was scary when I initially did it, I was thinking, this is tough, because when you've got one ear, you're like, your surroundings are all off, but I feel like I've adapted now, and got used to playing rugby with one ear, but at the start I was a bit like, oh god, I don't know if I'm going to be able to do this, but no, it's all good. And I was saying, Ollie Thorley, who normally plays on the left wing, he's got used to it now, at the start, remembering like screaming cools, but he's very understanding of it, and he gets it now, so. - Yeah, so if Ollie gets no ball, it's because of that. - Yeah, that's the reason, I can't hear him, I'm sorry mate. - And there's no way back, that's it. - Do that hearing is not retrievable? - I don't think I'll come back. - But you've managed to find a way round it clearly, because you're playing the rugby of your career, but in terms of not just your rugby, but your daily life, how, you know, in him to visit. - Yeah, initially it was really tough, but now like I've got used to living with one ear, like if I'm sat at a table, I'll always try and sit on the left-hand side, so I've just found different ways to adapt, and yeah, mate, I don't know, maybe it's like improving my scanning or something, and I don't know, but yeah, no, it's all good. - And the whole Gloucester thing, giving you a whole lease of life, isn't it, because just had to watch that game Friday night to see the kind of, Nick, the team is in, and the whole club and city that goes with it. - Yeah, I mean, yeah, I've really enjoyed the start of this season, especially playing games at home in front of our fans. I genuinely think it's the best stadium to play in the premiership, and like, yeah, I've loved every second of playing, and being able to showcase what we can do as a team. And yeah, long mate, continue. - Because there would have been times during those few years you had, and things didn't go your way up at Quins, and the club that's been up and down in terms of Quins, but is there anything you can put your finger on in terms of your form this season that has got you back in England set up? - To be fair, I think my move to Gloucester, and working with people I've worked with before, that bring out the best of me, it has really helped, 'cause I even felt like the start of last year, like I felt like personally I was playing some decent rugby, but we were struggling as a team, and we weren't winning games. And I think this year playing in a team that's winning, you get to showcase what you can do even more. So I think, yeah, I'm very grateful to Gloucester, 'cause I definitely felt they've played apart, and me being back here. - Yeah, you're a brother, Jonathan, one of Lodicaps, Ringland, Grand Slam winner, and it makes us all feel old, 'cause those of us who remember his debut, you're 11 years apart, aren't you? - Yeah. - The two of you. So tell us about the impact he's had in your career, having someone quite a lot older who has achieved what he's achieved in the game, and you're playing in similar positions too. - Yeah, obviously having him as an older brother is very special, like I remember, from a very young age, going to the Medeski to watch and play and play with like, people like, these are some old names now, but like Mappasua, Dylan Armitage, Topsy, so like I grew up watching them, and then obviously you moved to Barth, and I got to watch him with like Eastman and Fordy, who are some of the best ball players in the world. So I was very lucky to be able to go and up watching him play, and I'm very lucky having him now, 'cause he knows the game inside out, and it'll give me feedback and advice after games, or when I need it. - 'Cause you look dead similar, but you also have a similar, you know, Danny Care, who told with you and I was in 2022, who we work with, said you've sort of always got that same break making and the sort of the look back, and the mannerisms, that's obviously not something, that's almost just come instinctively from him being your older brother. - Yeah, I don't know, I wouldn't say like, watching how he walks and doing the same thing, but I think obviously we were siblings, we were related, and we probably got similar physics and similar bodies, so yeah, a lot of people say we have very similar mannerisms. I remember the first time I came into camp, and I think I was literally just sat on a medical bed, and Johnny Mayer was like, you are sat exactly how your brother would be sat right now, and I was just literally sat there, like normally just mind my own business, but a lot of people have noticed the similarities. - Yeah, I was messing with Jonathan just now, 'cause they're all out in Sardinia, whereas aren't there as a family, and he said to ask about your twin brother Alex, 'cause you've got Jonathan, who's 11 years old, and he's also got Alex, haven't you, who's your twin brother, but needs a fair bit of care, and he made the point that that's made you a very sort of caring individual. Do you know what he means by that, because of you having to look after Alex so much, that's really influenced how you are as a person. - Yeah, I think Alex has obviously got very severe learning difficulties, and I think growing up with him has made me obviously very grateful for being able to do like normal things and stuff, and he's like a real motivator for me, like what he has to put up with and deal with, and life's pretty challenging for him, but he's always, most of the time doing it with a smile on his face, and he's a massive part. He's the glue to our family, I'd say, like he keeps us all in check, keeps us grounded, and he's a big motivator for me, I want to make him proud. - It makes a drop ball put that into perspective, I imagine. - Yeah, absolutely. - What's the aim now? You're back in, you're in great form, but you know that there are a lot of players who have been playing for England recently, and Steve Borth, who will look to have some kind of continuity from the summer, from the six nations, and from the last few years, is it just about attacking every session and seeing what happens? - Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, I know I've been here before, even though it was a long time ago, but I very much feel like a new player, and I'm just very excited to be back in work with the coaches, and just put my best foot forward. Like I'm really excited to give this another good go. And yeah, really excited. And we'll see what a future may old. - So Alex Lowe, we've heard from Joe March, we've heard from Will Joe, so much to get into with Will Joe's, if you know, I know your colleague, Will Kelley, wrote about this a few weeks ago, with his ear. It makes us all feel old when you realise that John Austin is 11 years older. And I remember John the Joseph coming through. Now, here's his kid. Mae'n mynd i'n mynd i'r ysgiong. Mae'n mynd i'r ysgiong. 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We saw at Ellis Park when Marks and Visa went to work. Fraser McRite will come to town with his band of married men at the breakdown. We'll see it all through November so the fact the board think is talking about it now better than talking about it after November and going oh England we've done it at the breakdown. At least it's on the agenda. It's on the agenda I can see DORs and club owners kind of raising their eyebrows at this game. Why is it always the Prem's fault? The Prem is a thriving league and is great to watch and as Steve says he does have to back it and the skill levels are remarkable in the Prem like the lack of which we haven't seen. But yes that European weekend I was here at England Hotel yesterday saw Jamie George talking about exactly this subject and he talked to you know Southam's went to Connott and lost 40 or 30 odd but he said we were destroyed at the breakdown because we've got habits from the Prem where there's less of a contest so you can be less accurate because you're unlikely to be challenged and the problem with that is it builds wrong habits. So then you get to Europe where suddenly there's more of a contest and your inaccuracy gets penalised and exposed and that'll be the same on a higher scale. At test level with guys like Faisingwood right who are some of the best jackal breakdown operators in the game. It's a problem that England have to solve because if you think of the last 12 months England's discipline has been appalling. I mean not just sub part it's been dreadful the yellow cards some of them cause by pressure some of them caused by bad decisions or inaccuracy. And so they're trying to solve a problem at test level that they don't really have any schooling in at club level and now they have one week they've got this camp and then next week to try and sharpen their accuracy it's tough. Yeah and that's why I think the selection that comes out Hugo actually made some really valid points about this sort of form versus reputation. And there are players in a bit on reputation but I can totally understand why and as both we've touched upon there the Aussies have been together a while and look this is the way it's always been. So there's no tears being shed when England or Wales or Scotland or Ireland go down to the Southern Hemisphere in July they've had a six nations under the belt whereas the Southern Hemisphere haven't paid in months and months and months and months so it works in both ways but England's three camps are all separate in the year. Whereas Australia for example almost have one continuous camp don't they from July all the way through to to November so that's both and every Northern Hemisphere head coach challenges to pick up where they left off and that's where selection consistency will always win the day. So I would be surprised given he said Seb Atkinson should be fit and should play for Gloucester in the weekend if it's not Atkinson enslaved reprising their combination from the summer I'd be surprised if that's not the case and I'd be surprised. Fin Smith touch and go if he doesn't make it I still think he'll go to George Ford. Yeah George Ford has played more rugby friends and number ten than Marcus Smith has doesn't mean Marcus went over roll and will be invited number 23 or so that would be what I think. Yeah I would agree and Steve took exception on tour of being asked about the consistency of selection because it was the opposite to what so many other countries did. South Africa used 50 odd players I think over over their July tests and England made hardly any changes. Steve both is trying to build the consistency because of the camp issue that you just described so yeah I think in if he gets everything he wants he he starts with Fin Smith at 10. Seb Atkinson at 12 and Henry said at 13 I can then see the March and being on the bench to cover because because of the other midfield backline injuries. There's a the one area where he may look to get some fresh blood into the team at some point through the autumn as he two areas. Scrum half Archie MacParlan would have gone on tour had you not had that horrible gash and is needed from the premp final and kept you to a platoon. So we spoke about exactly down the pod so when because Hugo made a valid point that well Japan is the second game he's not going to rip it up and rotate. Every only nine competitive matches left New Zealand and then you want to build to the final and you got a win today and plan for tomorrow. And same with the night look he's got those established minds and those established so he has to make I don't think it's a case of him having to wait to the end of it. He's got to basically put MacParlan to a platoon in the 23 now and that means him just slightly rolling the dice over vastly more experienced players. He made a point in the conversation that we just had with Steve that about 2019 and that England World Cup squad did features and players who were who came in quite late on quite last minute. You know Rory McConaughey for example here's Francis they were there as squad men to to provide opposition and training to play in that USA game to just give the frontline guys a rest but they were never there to compete to start. And actually if you look through the numbers how often do teams go and use their third or the third nine not very often a World Cup. So to come to the point I'm just making you may just go listen we know that they're talented we're not going to force it. I do think MacParlan has a real shot of being in the in the 23 I think he deserves it. I think his form shows it. I think what he could do for an England bat line that will you know all things being equal have. Fid Smith at 10 and probably George Furbank with whom he's so familiar from the same stays at 15 I think I could be really valuable. So he's got I think probably more of a chance of playing than Kepu at this stage. It's just it's just so interesting with hookers net because he's got these two old war horses have been on multiple lines tours and have got hundred caps in Jamie George's case what 60 odd in Luke Cowan Dickies case. But then almost a missing generation of hookers yeah and then a kid in Kepu to a pelotti. It reminds me a bit of the Ben Young standing care scrum half dead a huge gap to the young pretenders who at the time were kids like Mitch and van Portley. So I just think we look around the dynamism that some hookers around the world game are providing doing the need someone coming in and offering a real point of difference in that position. They really do but Steve both particularly given his hair of expertise will balance that in his head with the line out there all their line out and a lot of them their line outs that's a low aren't they compared to Jamie George who's 90 plus. Now Moor the all blacks hooker who would be their version of Kepu to a brought to powerful strong big ball carrier dynamic but you can't trust his arrows when the pressure's on and. And I guess one of the Chinese that bought the cards with Kepu is they know what a what kind of a rugby player he is can he build that confidence in his throwing over the course of 12 months less than 12 months. I think that's tough I think that's tough so many questions fascinating stuff great to have you on as ever. Alex the Scotland squad by the way was announced after we recorded recorded Sunday night so it was announced on Monday loads in that. Listen to the Scotland road podcast with Burkey and with Tom they've got Gregor Townsend on everything you need to know about the Scotland squad with some interesting selections from Gregor Townsend. A really good chat with Townsend and there is so much on the BBC screen 5 pod and on our other social pod we are across the home nations every step of the way. So much to come through November we're back on Monday we'll see you soon. Julian Weekly with Chris Jones. Sometimes we all need an extra helping hand especially with a tricky business problem you've been putting off. 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