B. Pagels-Minor: Founding GP at DVRGNT Ventures

Welcome to Dear20Something. I'm Erica, the host of this podcast, and I'm so excited to have you here. A bit about me, I'm a 20-something social launch preneur and investor who is navigating the ups and downs of being in my 20s. The Dear20Something podcast started because we wanted to create a space for ambitious and curious 20-somethings to connect with the successful change makers they most look up to. While the 20s can be a time full of questions and doubts, we're here to humanize the whole thing. You'll hear from successful trailblazers who will share the highs and lows of their 20s and you'll also get words of wisdom from some experts who will speak on a certain topic relevant for 20-somethings. And then sometimes it'll just be me on the mic hosting an episode where I share a recent reflection or story from my own life as I too am navigating this wild decade. We're so happy to have you here. Let's get started. Today on the show I am so excited to be chatting with B Piggles Miner. B is an award-winning product strategist, podcast host, startup advisor, an investor, executive coach, and a respected thought leader in agile technologies. B's fear strived to promote diversity and tech and impact, authentic change, continues to define their work and life outside of their work. B is a proud graduate of Northwestern University with a focus on history and an MBA and master of information systems from Robert Morris University. B gives back to various organizations by being the Vice Chair and Secretary on the Board of Directors at Howard Brown Health, one of the top three largest LGBTQ community health centers in the country, Vice President and Secretary on the Board of Directors at the YWCA of Metropolitan Chicago, and Board of Directors of both the Northwestern Alumni Association and Outfest. In 2022, B was honored as one of the queer 50 from Fast Company, 35 hero advocate executives by involved people and Yahoo Finance UK, and a finalist for the 2022 LGBTQ nation heroes of the year. I can't wait to chat with them and share their story with you now on Dear 20 Something. Please welcome B. Hey, B. Hey, how are you? It's actually so funny you know I realized I gave you the bio that like a year old because I actually got queer 50 again this year. So two years in a row people think I'm really good at being gay I guess. So that's great. I love it. And you're one of the 50. Yes, yes, you know, top 50 of the professional list. Top 50. Well, what is the queer 50 list four? Is it just like change makers who are queer or what is the I don't know enough about that list? It's in partnership with Les Mines who tacked which shout out to me and Pittsburgh for all the work that she does. But it's for LB TQ plus folks. And so what that means is it's essentially people are assigned to you look or who identify as trans, non-binary, lesbian, trans woman, etc. And then you know, generally speaking, it's a combination of obviously your preference, but it's also a combination of what you've done in the world. So like the list is really amazing. So you have like, you know, you have doing great things at you know, Apple and companies like that and also well activists and some people like me or just venture capitalists who just try to do a lot of work to support queer folks. That's amazing. So it's a good array of folks. I do I never get together in person. I feel like that would be such a powerful group. And you all could help each other and just build this alliance. So what I will tell you is is that I totally agree with this, you know, because like for instance, like the time 100 they actually get together and like they get to meet and you know, fast company hasn't really set that up yet. So like, you know, maybe if we just keep saying yet that they won't make it happen. But I will say that like so many of us have like connected. So I've had so many conversations with other people who are less because obviously when you see who's on the list, even if you're not all the leisure, it's like why I have to go talk to these people? Is there doing things that are so great? And so I want to just learn about it. And in fact, you know, there's a few people who are like in adjacent industries where especially I'm just like, well, what is that? Like how does that work? Like explain it to me. And I get to ask you now because we're on the same list. And so of course you're going to actually respond to my LinkedIn request. So this is really great. I love it. It's like the 430 under 30. It's like all these lists that whether you're on it or you're not on it, it gives you a great summary of the people doing cool stuff in a certain industry or you know, have a certain identity. And that's amazing. Yeah, it gives you that in to get on a call with them. I always feel that way. Like whenever you're on a list or you're mentioned in something or you get a fellowship, I always feel like the least qualified person on the list. So I'm like, oh, now there's an excuse for them all to talk to me. Yes. Well, but at the same time, I think one of the best things that you can do in life is to be surrounded by people who are much smarter than you. Right? Because it's all right to try to level up to someone else's level than versus like saying, hey, am I going down? Because like the people around New York as excellent as I probably deserve to have surrounded them. I agree. Well, I feel that way about you. We'll get into your story and all those things. But for people who want context too, we were online friends. And then we met in person. Now we're podcasting. So we really just we are crossing all the boundaries of friendship, which we love. We are just getting to know each other more and more. Exactly. Well, it's actually so funny because obviously COVID, you know, accelerated the fact that there's so many virtual relationships now. But I can't tell you so even like so I have a podcast called the jobs podcast. And my podcast co-host there, we never met in person. So we actually originally met on LinkedIn, like a few months before COVID started and it was came, you know, friends in COVID. And then we decided to start a podcast. So we have these conversations where it seems like we've known each other our whole lives and that we are like in the same room. But no, we literally never met. Isn't it wild? How that's possible? I feel like I have that with a lot of people too, especially with our industry. So much of it is very small and very online. And so it becomes very easy to feel like you know people, even if you actually've never met. Tell me more about the podcast before we get into it. I'm so curious. What is it about? Yes, so the jobs podcast is focused on helping show what product market fit looks like. So product market fit for folks who don't know is essentially when you have a combination of factors. So it's your product. It works. People pay for it. They pay for it in a way that's actually profitable to you. And then they use it in a way that's explosive. So I always use like the original Twitter as an example. So Twitter was one of the most popular websites in the world, but it would break constantly. And so some people said, oh, that's a chain-key website. But we actually on our side say, well, no, that actually means that they're having such explosive usage that they can't keep up with it. And so that's a really great sign. Something has product market fit. But that's what we talk about. And actually some tab, whose my close for that podcast, we've both been consultants and also the product people for a long time. And so we just got to the point where we would just like we would just complain. We would say, I cannot believe I had this client who did XYZ. Like it's just like everyone knows not to do that. And they were just like, well, maybe they don't know actually. So we decided to get on the podcast and have these conversations there versus discontinuating to rant to each other about the things that we wish companies would do. I love it. You can give it as a pre-read like before we consult together, listen to every single episode. And then we'll work together. Basically. And we do always try to bring on like other experts to some people who have different experience. And they still agree. So I was like, yes, so we're right. Like this is just thing that should not happen. Yeah. But I think it's so hard. Product market fit is this like very elusive thing that everyone strives for and they hope to find if they're a founder. But for there to be like tactical advice and people who've gone through it themselves, I think that that's so valuable because I remember one time I was a Rahul who started superhuman. He was giving a talk about like a formula for if you have product market fit or not. And it was basically about like surveying a certain segment of users and seeing how they grab PS scores and all that stuff. And it was really wild to see like a quantitative approach to product market fit. And I think similarly like having a podcast where you just uncover the insights is very valuable because most people don't even know what to look for. Yes. Well, I see. And what are they going to understand what it even means? You know, it's actually one of those things where I think the long-gram inventory capital, the more I realized that there's such a wide variety of founders in their skillsets. Because some people they're just so freaking good at what the thing that they care about. They didn't really matter that they didn't have the basics on these other things. And so when you actually start talking to them and helping them understand this is how you can actually value your business. It completely changes the whole dynamic for them because they're like, well, I didn't even know this thing existed. It's an interesting process to kind of help open people's eyes so they can be more more effective. Yeah, and I love that you're making a public with the podcast. Okay, so we start every show with a bit of a fun icebreaker, which you may know. So what is something new that you learned in this past week? You can take the question any direction you want, but something new you learned. Okay, so this is actually really interesting. So I have a lot of hair now for most of my life until 2019. So 2019 is when I started to grow out my dreads. But before that, I had always had basically a bus cut. Like I just basically have to hear whatsoever. See, I've only known you with dreads. Exactly. And actually it's really weird because I was thinking about it recently. I was like, do I want to keep my dreads on again? I was like, but honestly, like my dreads make me look more mature just with like with the bus. They are all so so cool. That is true. And like, you know, because I have like my trail. So I'm going to my first ball, my first ballroom show. So ballroom is a party, you know, a party get culture. And it's like fabulous, whatever. And so I had my lock session come over this week and she was like, I'm going to give you ballroom here. So yes, I can do all kinds of crazy stuff with my hair. Not good. So big. But that's what I learned this week. So I was looking for a different like hair situation. So like like I said to protect the hair. So of course, the ballroom look like it should look on Saturday. And I have this turban. Like so it's a turban thing that I've purchased. But I didn't actually know how to use it because it was like very confusing. So yesterday she taught me how to put the terminal in my hair properly. And it actually is so great because like my edges are perfect right now. And so I learned how to put a terminal in my hair. And it is really really effective. And so I highly recommend, but make sure you get the one that's still alive because your hair gets frizzy. You don't want your hair to get frizzy. You want it to still look very nice. I learned how to better to share my hair. And how to put a turban on your head. Which is amazing. Exactly. And I feel like now that you've unlocked this, you can do amazing hairstyles in the future and know that they will always stay for what is it like a week or how long can you guarantee it stays good? Well, it just depends on what I do. And honestly, so obviously, this barge, like, you know, I'm going to be very energetic. It's probably going to be hot. So it's probably not the last after that. But let's assume I'm doing normal things. They know it'll be like a couple of weeks, you know, as long as I do like the proper maintenance and things like that. And then, you know, for dreads, it's actually interesting because like everyone has different vacatances for theirs. So like, for me, I like to get my hair lined up at least once a month and then like the dreads might be like every two months, we get it like tightened up and things like that. But it's actually funny because like my wife has a tremendously like her hair is very, very long. And she was just like the majority of our relationships are her hair costs more to maintain in mind. And now she's like, your hair costs more than mine. Like, I don't understand. I was like, I don't know how this happened either. I was just trying to look like an adult. And this is where that's hilarious. So used to that hair cup budget being a certain amount and now it's doubling or tripling. That's hilarious. Yeah. It's not cheap. You know, if you have hair, whether you're a man or a woman or a non-binary, like if you have hair, it is expensive. It is expensive to maintain. It is expensive for it to stay beautiful. But I'm glad you're taking care of it. I think that's incredible. And I'm excited to hear how this ballroom thing goes. What's the context? Is it just like a showcase? Is it just going to a certain club? Like what's the? I don't know enough about ballroom. So all I know is that for instance, there's a show legendary. So legendary was like this competition for people who were in ballroom, right? To perform. So I know what the types of skills or performances or categories are. But I don't know if that show experience is like either. But this is actually a fundraiser. So Debbie Allen has a performance school here. I know Debbie Allen. Yeah. She's incredible. Exactly. So this is for her performance. So I actually saw one of the judges posted it on Instagram. I was like a ballroom show that's also helping Debbie Allen, of course, I'm going to show up. But it's called Remember Their Name Ball. So it's also an homage to all the TG and C folks and also Black folks who have lost their lives to obviously the world and the violence that's happening. So I love the fact that it's helping a program because Debbie Allen's school from what I understand is amazing for young people. They get to learn how to dance. A lot of her dance actually go off to have really great careers. But it's also let's talk about the fact that stuff happens. The fact that conversation in honor of those folks is I love the fact that it's so multiteered. Of course, of course, it's multiteered as a Debbie Allen production. And so I'm really excited about it. In fact, the tickets weren't selling as well as I thought they should because I was very opinionated. But I was like, no, it should be sold out already because like, honestly Debbie Allen. And so I started sharing around and so we have probably like a dozen people from my group of friends who are going to all show up as well. So we're going to come in there and it's like most of our first ballroom show. So like we're over here like, which outfit are we going to wear? Is like, should we eat before it's like, no, let's, let's, no, we'll be too bloated. We want to make sure we can dance like, you know, just do light fights, that type of thing. So this is, this is the whole strategic effort now for all of us. There's a lot of things to think about. It's not just hair. Exactly. It's fluid. It's clothing. It's friends also being there. Yeah, you're really, it's a lot of buckets. You have to hit. It's a lot of prep work. Exactly. And you know, we only go outside every once in a while now. So like, what we do, we have to make it worthwhile. Absolutely. And you have a little one these days. Yes, I do. You know, he's taking up a lot of your time. He really does. And also, you know, it's so interesting because I think that there's like definitely like it's a parent. Like so we were those parents who were like, oh yeah, we'll still just like just do our lives and whatever. And we do, but we realize we actually don't really like being away from him. So it takes more effort. I would be like, well, technically we could go to this cool thing. But he's like really cute today. Like, I don't know. Like, I kind of just want to hang out with him. Obviously with VC and then speaking, I feel like that I have to travel a lot more than I've ever had to travel. And so like I have all these trips and I'm just like, oh, okay, I know it's kind of annoying to leave it. If I leave it, if I get it early enough, that I can get back by the time he wakes up the next day. So that's like the types of things that we do now because you just like to be around all the time. I love that. I think that's so special and not all parents feel that way. I feel like now that I'm thinking back on it, the flight that you and I took was a really, really late flight. So like, I think it was like 11 p.m. or something. So instead of like staying over one night, we were both for different reasons, crazy enough to like book the last flight out so we could get home, which that makes sense. Yeah. And we ended like 2 a.m. or something like that, right? So it was just terrible. And by the way, he woke up as soon as I got to the house. He was like, it was like, he knew I was like, okay, cool. I was like, we can like cuddle and he could go back to sleep. Precious, precious, precious. Okay. So let's get into it. Obviously right now, a lot of the work that you're doing is Inventure Capital, which is how we know each other, but you've had a very illustrious career. You've done so many things. You've worked for so many companies. I want to get into all that. Walk me through like going to Northwestern and how that experience was. And did you know what you wanted to do when you were there? Like how did you figure out you wanted to go into the world of business if you even knew at that point? Well, actually, so it's so interesting. So I'm actually like, I say that most of my life is an accident, right? I didn't really plan anything. I just took a lot of leaps of faith. Because I actually started off college at Duke University, like sports and all that stuff. I had a really severe injury. And so I actually went home for a year and actually transferred to Christian Brothers University, which by the way, with someone of my combative nature, like what I mean by combative is that I just don't agree with things simply because it's easy. I'm like, no, I just don't. I'm just going to challenge it just because I'm going to get it. And so going to a Christian college that actually made me take a religion course was like probably not the best idea. It took me a year to recover. Then I transferred to North Western. So when I, by the time I get to North Western, what I will tell you is that I knew for fact that I wanted to have a nice career, right? Like so I was like, okay, so what do I need to do? What can I mean during that can ensure I get the type of results that I was looking for? You know, I had to decide it. I'm going to be an attorney, right? Like that's what I'm going to be. And so when I started looking at the past that gets you to be an attorney, that's two degrees that we really helped with our history of political science. That was the double major history of political science. And it was really interesting because I actually diagnosed with thyroid cancer when I was in college. And so it kind of changed the trajectory of my collegiate experience though because it was really hard to maintain the double major. And there was this chance that honestly I wasn't going to be able to continue school. And so I was really fortunate for, and this is actually why I say, you know, I'm such a pro-aggressive, more frustrating, and it's like the deans are the ones who stepped in and they were like, hey, your professors have reported their little concern. You guys have misled glasses. Well, I'm sick because I didn't tell anyone. Like I don't even know, like this is how you use silly as a college student. I didn't tell my people. I was like, I didn't say anything about the insane. And so I explained it to them. They're like, oh, this totally makes sense. They're like, why don't you just go down and take two classes? We'll still do this. You can take some classes in the summer and then we'll help maintain you so that you can do it. And they even moved me to another dorm. So I didn't have to move and all my classes got moved to like the first floor. So I wouldn't have to walk up the stairs. And then I had a car service that would take me to them from my appointments so that I could make sure that I was okay. And so they actually made sure that helped me with all my treatments to make sure that I recovered. And then that's actually why I graduated after that experience. I was just like, even though I came to law school, I did eventually go to law school. But it just completely changed my perspective of things. Like I didn't want to wait to do things. Right. And so, you know, I actually ended up having it in becoming a consultant at a nonprofit, you know, philanthropy service. But then I graduated in 2008. And so that company, like something else, like 50% of their income or something. So every single person who got hired that summer got laid off. And so then after getting laid off, I did every job. So I was like a handyman. I was a barista at Tijuana. I was like doing whatever it took to like make money. And it was actually one of my friends just like, I know you have this fancy degree. And you're like, some big uppity up, whatever. I was like, girl, I need to pay my bills. I don't care what I do. And so she actually suggested that I go interview a target or storm your energy growth. And so being a target actually is what made me start to think about business. And so that's actually why I ended up going to business school. And it's because like, it's like, so it's one of those things where I think that a lot of times when we think about the people who work in retail, we think about it as like a less than type thing. But when you're working in retail, like any type of retail, any type of sales thing, you are like someone who's like trying to figure out how to convince people to buy stuff. All of your get reviews, all of your processes, just based on how much you can sell. And so, you know, my manager at the time, so the head manager, the store, her name's Sunday, by the way, which is so funny because she did not look like a Sunday. And actually she was a lesbian too. And it was so funny because like she was like a great mentor because she's like, yeah, I was like, how do you figure out how to do all of this? And you were like in Iowa when it was like way less cool to do this, but all of a sudden stuff. And she's like, well, look at this store. What's going on this weekend? So let's say I was four from July. And she's like, what do you think that we need to put on the end caps to increase the likelihood that people are going to buy a lot of stuff? I was like, well, paper plates and plastic forks and like the ketchup and the muskish like exactly. So why aren't they, why aren't they there? Right? And so she would always like to just like encourage you to be asking these questions of yourself is like, what do people need? What do they require? How can we do what's necessary to increase the likelihood that we'll have sales? And I think that really, really changed my mind about business. And then the second part of that of being in store manager there is that you know, you're managing hundreds of people. Like I don't think people understand that. Like there's more than one man and there's managers for each section of the store, but collectively there's hundreds of people who work in this place. And they have completely different backgrounds. They have completely different things that are really like that are their drivers. And so you're trying to constantly. and they figure out what do I need to say, do honor in order to have this person be productive. Right? Now, in order because like turnover in retail is so expensive and so someone who already knows what's supposed to happen every single day is exceptionally valuable. And so it taught me so much about leadership in management and how not to be a jackass that I will always say you go for your retail for a little bit in your life. It will help you. And then the last part of it is that you have these people. So it was in this affluent suburb of Chicago called Evanston. And so this particular suburb was a melting pot because where this target was low-till. So on one end was an orthodox Jewish community. Another end was a super like section AE, very hard on the look folks. And then you had this whole like multi-million dollar family situation. And so you had this like wide variety of people who come in each day and then you're trying to navigate all those personalities. I mean, the types of incidents are you have like, I do one of the craziest stories I ever remember. So this woman had come in. So she was a regular. Like she is just a person and we always saw she always complained about something. But this one day I was the store manager in charge. And so she comes in and there's like a half-ean box of like kicks or something like that. And she's like, this is unacceptable. This kicks was still I need to refund. And I was like, it's a my the person who in charge of guest experience was just like, absolutely not. You ate half the box. And I was like, you know, Ms. Julie, I said, what's up? She's just like, yeah, this is just messed up. I said, Ms. Julie, are you having a moment? She's like, what do you mean? I said, you never come in here with a half-ean box before. Like what's going on? She was like, I just think that this year she would say, she's like, so you just want to refund because it didn't taste good. She's like, yeah, I was like, here you go. And then I remember the guest experience person was like, why would you do that? I was like, it's like $2. And there's ladies in here all the time. It's like, choose your battles. And like, so it was like, this, that was a lesson. Like, you know, you learn, just choose your battles. Like, it's not worth, it has something, especially when you still going to see that person all the time. Right. How can you like navigate relationships the way that make more sense? And so yeah, I did not know I was going to go into business. But what I did know is that was going to learn how to talk and think critically. And I knew that was very important, whatever I wanted to do, because I want to have a fancy career that I can actually afford to take care of myself in the family. I love it. Thank you for sharing all that. And also appreciate your vulnerability about the the cancer as well. That's obviously a very difficult thing to experience. But then have to still pay your bills and get a job and get a degree and do all the things that all of us have to do. Walk me through a little bit more around this like, I wanted a fancy career. You kind of glanced over that like, I knew when I was in school, I wanted a fancy career. So it was attorney and then business. But where does that come from? Like, why did you want to make sure that you made a lot of money? Was that always self-motivated? Was there someone that you really admired that made a lot of money? Where did that come from? Well, now it's because my family was dirt pork. So my mother was a single mother of three kids. And in fact, when I was looking at her tax return, they won't play. She never made more than $24,000. The entire time, you know, she had her career. You know, and so if I felt it when I was younger, you know, is one of those things when I was in school, teachers knew they knew that one, if you send a letter to our house, our address probably wasn't going to be whatever was on that form. If you wanted to call, our phone wasn't going to be on. And they also knew you could just give me that note because even if it was a terrible note, I was going to give it to my mom because I was very reliable in that way. But we had a very difficult time with that stability factor. And I knew that because of that, I wanted to not only make a lot of money, I wanted to make enough money because I knew that there's differences in how much money, right? Because you made enough money, you could take care of yourself. If you made a lot of money, you could take care of your family. And so that's why I really wanted to be able to do is to make sure that my family would never have to worry about any of that type of stuff again. Yeah, well, I appreciate you sharing that. You know, like you said, like, our backgrounds only make us stronger, whether it's the cancer, whether it's having circumstances as a child that you don't want for your own child and your own family, it only makes you stronger and it only makes you into the person you are now where you go after what you want, you know, no matter what. And I think that's such a theme in your career is like, you really just go after what you want, you speak your mind, you are this like force. And I think that that's something that fortunately or unfortunately does stem from a lot of those things that adversity that you've experienced. Okay, so you were at target, you were learning a lot. I love this thing about retail, by the way. I feel so strongly too that more people need to go work in retail than what comes next. Walk me through. I know you were somewhere for several years after target. What made you decide to join that organization? And how did you like it? So it's a part of my MBA MIS program. They actually required you to go to like job events and things like that so that you could get. So because the whole program was we don't want you just to get a degree. We actually want you to get a job, which is why I actually chose the program. And so I walk into this particular job fair and there's actually really funny because like the job fair, like, you know, like most job fairs, this is, you know, 15 years ago. So back then job fairs were primarily women. Like you never saw guys at job fairs like were representing companies. And so I look over and there's like this white guy who's in shorts and like a long sleeve shirt in like January in Chicago. So I was like, this person may be a maniac. I have to go talk to him. Like this is this is my personality. So I go talk to him. It's like, Hey, who are you? He was like, yeah, my name's Brian. And I was like, how's the, you know, thing going? He's like, yes, not great. He's like, no one here really has the background that I'm looking for. I was like, well, what are you trying to do? And you say, well, I have a tech company and I need some customer support people. So people who know some basic stuff about technology and all those other stuff. And I was like, that's me. He's like, what's up? And I was like, yeah, I love technology and all those other stuff. I was like, well, I don't know if I know what to do. But like, I use a job. Like, so why not? And it's like, but I'm in grad school though. That's okay. And he's like, he's like come over on Monday. It's like, come in. And he's, let's see, even crazier. Like that time, I used to come see him. He's in shorts again. He has flip-flops on. And then he has a shirt that has like two holes in it. And I was just like, this is the owner of this company. And so it was. He told he was a company. So we go to Starbucks and he goes, okay, so can you start next Monday? And I was just like, wait, is that my interview? He's like, yeah, he's like, it's this amount of money. It's more money I'd ever heard. I was like, you're going to pay me that amount of money just to like talk to people about tech stuff. Like, this is crazy. And so yeah, I was at the company for five years. I started off as the main customer support. Then I kind of led most of the customer support team and agency relationship manager. And then I became the first kind of product-use person there. And so that really launched my career because they're like, not only did they teach you, so it's a part of my training. They taught me about how to code. They taught me all the different things about APIs and so on. And so really, you know, piqued my interest because I realized, oh, technology actually is more of what I want to do. Right? True. I can still get a law school. True, I can do all these other types of things. But technology is the thing that gets me wrapped up at night. Like, you know, I'm a type of person. In fact, I think he asked my wife, when I am looking at some app or looking at something, I just immediately started going like, what did they do it that way? Like, you know, they should have done it. Like, you know, did they think about this type of user? Like, this is a terrible experience. And I just think that that was always my personality. I just didn't know that product management existed. If I had known it, I probably would have had a completely different trajectory in terms of what my career or what I would have pursued. Right? Because like, the thing is, I knew I liked technology, but I knew I was a computer science person. Like, but if I had no product management existed, I would have been, I would have been like, oh, well, sure, I can go ahead and get some business or some kind of analytical thing. And then he still do technology. It's in my change things from that perspective. Yeah, absolutely. I think you don't know, though, until you experience it. And that's so many of these careers, right? It's you don't know what exists, even venture, which is what you're doing now. You probably didn't know about that until way later. And it's just it's about continuing to uncover and get closer and closer to what that version of you is. And obviously this product stuff really, really resonated. I mean, you obviously have the podcast now. And then when I look through your career, I mean, you've done product at so many different companies, performance wise and cars.com, sprout social, and then Apple and Netflix eventually. Right? Like you have worked at so many different companies. What is it about product management and that whole world that is the most exciting for you? Like, why was that the area where you really have built your career? You know, I think it really comes down to something very simple. I liked to have a very big impact, right? And so some people think that impact is because you have some crazy title, right? You're a director of EP, et cetera. But I actually find that because you know, I've had the privilege to really be close to people like that. Sometimes it actually seems like their job is the suckiest job in the whole company, right? Because they might have the big salary, but they have the politics and the stress and they don't get to do the work a lot of the times. And so what I really like is to find two things that really have a big impact for customers in the business, right? When someone comes to me and says, I need to get my company to see their exact and that means I need to get to $20 million ARR. I go, I know exactly how you can do that, right? Let's build this. Let's talk to our customers and make sure that they understand that they feel valued. Let's do the, and it's just, and it feels great, right? And in fact, as I've gone up in my career, I went from, you know, sorry, well, flip like, okay, I'm going to work in a future for this particular product too. I'm going to own the whole product. And so now I even think about it as like fine tuning the company, right? Because there's a part of it that goes, well, the product can only be so good at all the aspects that support it, right? The engineering team has to be very functional. The customer support team has to be very functional. The sales team has to be very functional. And so you started thinking about how do you create processes and resources that allow the entire company to be effective so that we can generate the business value that we're supposed to generate. So I just think it's really about maximizing potential. That's what it really comes down to. And it's actually that's why also venture, we came even more natural because like once you start, you're like, okay, well, I've helped so many companies. Now like, What do we want? would it look like if I could help an entire ecosystem, right? If I can help generate that same type of positive momentum. And so it's just like that constant desire to just have greater impact drives me everywhere. I love that. And even there's even something to be said too for like you're helping all these companies build as an employee. What about now helping all these companies to getting a slice of the pie? Yes. Right. And like because you've gotten all this experience after so many years, now it's like venture does make sense because yes, I'll continue helping companies as you know, an advisor as an employer, whatever that looks like for you. But what if I owned a piece of it? And what if I got compensated for taking a bet early? Ventures very interesting. Walk me through the decision to go from working at Apple Netflix big tech companies to going into venture. I know you've been doing a lot of consulting and advising work in between a lot of this. But what was that pivot like and why'd you decide to start your own fund? Yeah. So you know, it's really interesting. So I started like investing and kind of trying to understand about all these different things several years ago. So I think actually right now started to Apple is it once I started working Apple, that's when I started making like a lot of money. And I was just like, Oh, wait, I have to be matured and figure out how to like maximize the amount of money that this is. And so that's when I started first like pursuance this like 2018, like really starting to get into it. And you know, as I matured and because you start off with like, you know, the crowdfunding platforms and things like that. And then you actually started finding people who are like, into networks that you do individual investments. And then I became an LP and a few different funds. And actually when I became an LP and a fund, I actually required them to allow me to be on the investment. And I was like, I will only do this if I can be a part of the investment committee because I wanted to understand more about what was like involved in it. Like I was just like, because there's a mysterious to me. I was curious. It's like, I just want to know like what's actually involved in this process. I think that's why a lot of people invest too because they want to just know. It's literally it's like a knowledge share. You're led into the club and now you can learn the ins and outs of running a company or running a fund. So I think that that's common, but that's really cool that you, you did that and they accepted that. Oh yeah. Well, I mean, that's why you have to be nice to people first. Because I was just like, you know, I'm so smart and so talented. Can you not allow me to be in the room? And they actually hate me sometimes because I'm usually the one who's just like, no, I think it's a terrible idea. I'm going to get outvoted by still thinking it's terrible idea. Or when I think it's a great idea, it's such a great idea. In fact, one of the ones that we invested in, they're doing the next round. It's already a three X multiple. So I was just like, yeah, that's exactly what we're looking for. I was right. Exactly. So once I started doing the investment committee stuff, though, I realized I was like, I could do this as like, it's not that dissimilar than any one page or I created for a product where I was explaining why we need to do it. The fundamentals to a Westie code, all that sort of stuff. And so then I started to think, you know, I kind of want to get into this. Let me talk about it. But what's really difficult, though, is that it's exceptionally difficult to get into to break into venture capital. Right. So then I was just like, well, let me try to be a scout or something like that for a few different places. And because of my consulting business and podcast, I get so much deal flow from the old Marita. So that's the area that is close to my heart. And from Mississippi went to middle school high school in Memphis, Tennessee, with school in North Carolina, with school in Illinois. So I had like this affinity for a little America. And so I would start bringing these deals to all these different VCs that I had relationship with. And they were just like, well, we can't get to confidence about this. And I was like, well, it doesn't make sense because I saw a deal last week. That's not as good as this deal. Right. And so I'm going to be honest, like, you know, if you look at the like the specific metrics, because again, I am a very data driven person. So I'm not, it's not, it's not based on my gut. This is based on the fact that I'm looking at the metrics. And it seems like this is a much better deal than the one that you presented in the last week. So I don't understand what the issue could be here. And so then he knows they keep going and going and going and going. They finally get to the point that they're just like, well, we just don't know them. And I was like, well, the only way you need to know them is if you go down there, and they're like, well, that's not what the areas we are. You know, and so I just kept hearing it over and over and over again. And I just, I couldn't believe it, right? Because to me, it's very simple. The number one goal you have is venture capitalists to make money, right? And if money exists in places outside of where you normally go, then what they just go over there, right? That was simple. You know, it could be to me. There's actually Paul over again. It was just like, be just open up your own fund. He's like, we will help, you know, help you out. Paul's the best. I don't know. You know Paul. Yeah. Yeah. So he is awesome. And so you know, it's just make it happen. So that's what it's like to do. So I started doing the investigation and I realized it was pretty straightforward to actually get the process started. I was seeing you and I both know the hardest part is the actual fundraising, which is the thing that you know, it's the biggest challenge. But ultimately, it is seeing like the exact right thing. And honestly, every day I wake up, I get to talk to a founder, I get to talk to a investor, I get to talk to people about their hopes and dreams. And it's a pretty good way to spend your day from honest. That's how it ended up happening. I love it. I love that you just went after it. I mean, I think Paul could very easily told you that you should start a fund and you could have very easily come up with a lot of reasons not to because it is so hard. Like you said, but you're doing it. And you've been making it happen. How is the process been going? How are you liking it? We're both less than a year in. So you know, it's still early days, but how is it going for you? The things I don't like are the gatekeeping. So the gatekeeping is a real thing across like, and actually it's across genders. It's across races, it's cross sexualities. It's like so interesting to me. The scarcity of mindset that exists. And so I feel like it's a nice challenge for me because I'm just like, why do you think there's scarce resources when we know that there are billions of dollars in play here? But anyway, I think that's the thing that's kind of strange. What I do also think is interesting is that I don't think this is something that you can learn unless you're actually doing it, right? VC is not something. When I first started, people would recommend books to me and I would read the book and I was like, this doesn't make sense whatsoever. And then you actually started doing it and you're like, oh, that totally makes sense now. Right? So it's one of those things that you actually kind of have to get into. It's really starting to understand it. And so I think that's a very fascinating thing. So for instance, if someone's listening to this and then they go, I would like to be a BNBC. I would highly encourage just doing it kind of like I said, and you can start off as a scale or investment committees or whatever because it is one of those things that the new wants is of how it operates is so unique to its industry that it's kind of difficult to ascertain what it is otherwise. But like I said, the people are the most interesting part of it because it's such a fascinating group of people like across so many socioeconomic classes, regions, backgrounds. It's just it's so interesting to understand it. You know, the founders in particular, it's like, they just make you super hopeful. Like it's amazing how many people are doing things that are truly, truly world changing things. And all they need are like people like us to see them and give them a chance. Right. And I think that's pretty cool. And I feel like it just kind of keeps me full up every day because even if it's not me, writing them a check, it's like, oh no, I actually totally get it. And because I've also met all these other cool people who are doing this, I know exactly what they're actually with. And so it feels really, really good to be making a difference for people because you, obviously, especially because I only invest in middle America. You know, this is a person in Alabama who probably wouldn't have gotten a full route. Wouldn't have been completely, completely around for a really long time. And it's like, I can actually do with that person that happened or the person in DC, who I connected them with Jenny from everywhere and she wrote them a check. So this is the type of stuff that you wake up and you're like, I really made a difference in the world today. And I think sometimes, you know, in my career, like obviously with like the activism or or volunteer and things I do, I can sometimes see like that specific impact, but I've never seen the impact of my work like this before. And so it just feels so good to see it happen. And cast someone right you a note saying that like that totally changed the trajectory of what I'm doing here. Just like, wow, I can't believe that was me because I still feel like, you know, I'm still like that kid from Mississippi who is just trying to figure out how things work. So I love that. I think it's really cool to see how impact is at the core of how you make decisions and how you think about your career. Unfortunately, I do think that is rare. I think a lot of people want to find meaning in fulfillment in their work, but they don't always think about it through the lens of how is this actually really changing the world and am I having the largest scale impact I could have? And so to hear you talk about that and how venture really is that avenue for you, at least right now, I think is really important for people to hear because there are people that are VCs that really truly are in it because they want to move money into the right hands. And ultimately, the greatest impact you can make is with money. Honestly, that money makes the world go round. And so you're living proof of that. So thank you for all your work. Thank you. Well, I could keep chatting with you all day, but I want to be mindful of your time. So I do have one final question. We ask this of all our guests. If there is one piece of advice that you could give to a 20 something, what advice would you give them? Regardless of if they're in business, venture, if they work at Target, if they go to Northwestern, regardless of all of it, every 20 something, what's that advice? Take Chris. It's very simple. It's so interesting to me because I said that my life is a series of accidents. My career is a series of accidents. Every single one of them, I can tell you I went before I took the job to share as well because I told my wife, I was like, this white man seems crazy. So I'm not sure if this company is going to work. And she was just like, but be what can you lose? Like, you're not going to die, right? You're going to be fine. And it was like that was substantially one of the dozens that we did. Moving to California, the apples, the furthest I've ever been away from my family. It's the first ever been away from my friend group. And we had to completely start a new. But every single thing I did in the North cow to now being in so cow has dramatically the amount of growth I had in like that five or six years is like exponentially larger than I had in the whole beginning of my life. And so you know, risk taking is, you know, I think of it as like a friction mechanism. Infriction calls as fire. And if you want anything in life as to have an inferno, some great thing that drives you. And so take risks. Take his. many risks you can because it's usually the stuff that really pays off for you. I love it. And especially when you are a 20 something and you're young and it's usually before partner kids life gets in the way a little bit. I mean, you can still obviously do it with all those things, but there's less that you have to think about and you can be more risky. Well, I would also say choose the right partner because they'll take those risks with you. Yeah. Tell me more about that. Obviously, you've mentioned your wife a bunch. You know, you speak so highly of her to me, but when thinking about choosing the right partner, what's your advice on that front? Yeah. So it's so interesting. So my wife and I both for people who didn't think that we would be married. Like so it was not like we were like 24. Like, you know, I was like 30 or whatever. So like we thought for sure that we're going to be single into our 30s. And for us, what happened is we met on okay, keep it so they get we're aging ourselves because okay, keep it is like not even a thing anymore. But okay, keep it. We met there and she actually just wanted to be friends. But when we met each other, we just instantly liked each other. And so virtually since that day, we've never really been apart other than business trips. And for us, the the brawmter was, it's like one we normally get annoyed with people like we don't like to be around people. And so the fact that we always want to be around each other was a great example. But the second part of it, I think, is super important is that we had similar ideas of what could be right. So my wife is always wanting to be an entrepreneur at some point. And I was like, even though that's kind of crazy, so I was the first to always want to have a steady job because of my background. But she always wanted to be an entrepreneur and I was like, cool, so we need to create a situation that she could do that. And then you know, she was always the one who would be like, be like, you know, we don't have to worry about blah, blah, blah, blah. We will figure it out. And so that that in and equal need to take more risk. So I just think we had a very similar vision for what life could be like, which I think is very important. And then lastly, you know, the thing about okay, keep it in my two-nefficant is, okay, keep it asked you numerous questions to figure out what your values were. Right? And so, you know, the higher your percentage was, the higher likelihood that you would have some of values. And so we're like 99.8% or something like that. Like we only disagree on life, some religious things because obviously my dad's a Baptist minister and she's not from a Baptist's Finisher family. But the reality of it is though is that being a values and why it is the basis of every good relationship, whether it's a personal relationship, your friendships, your business relationships. And so having someone that you know, 99% in Greens with what you value really tremendously impacts how you can trust each other on certain decisions and things like that. So those are things I think are most important. I love that. Thanks for that checklist too. That's so helpful. I think for people that are listening that are maybe unsure if it's the right partner. They're looking for someone. I also, I want that like, okay, keep it values test. I'm like, I want to give that to people. I want to I want to see how aligned we are with just even friendships, you know, and like work relationships. Yeah, yeah. I love those things. Like I just did the most recent like so I did you strings find her for one team I was working with and then we did like the disc or another team I was working at. By the way, I'm just a cap will be don't like like I just have to do, but it is. I love doing those things. There's always interesting to keep fine-tuning and thinking about what really drives you because like that's one of the things I've been people forget because they're like, oh well, I'm doing this because I'm like, no, there's a driver there. So figure out what that driver is because that's going to help you be more effective in a way. I love that. So it's take risks and also take some of these tests that can be our sub advice. Yes. Be can you let everyone know where they can find you online and learn more about all the different work you're doing and the fund and all of that good stuff. Yeah. So for me, personally, be a bagels minor across everything. So LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok, all the other type of stuff. And then for the fun, it's divergent, venture says divergent without the balance of DVRG and T Ventures is the fun. Again, it's just that name everywhere. And so feel free to connect with us. If you are a founder and investor, you can actually, there's forms on the website that you can actually just instantly go through. And if you ever have any questions about career and things like that, I always recommend people reach out to me all and then because I had that where I normally answer those types of questions. Amazing. Yeah, you have a good LinkedIn following. I saw that today. This is very impressed. Be thanks for being here. This was so fun. Yeah, it was awesome. And you know, I'm so happy that we did it. Because I think when we met in New York, I was like, we should do this. And we actually made it happen. So again, that's what we do. We follow through. You and I, we have integrity. Yes. For sure. Well, I appreciate you. Thanks for being here. All right. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Dear 20 Something. If you enjoyed it, you can give us a follow over at Dear 20 Something on Instagram or subscribe here or anywhere you get a podcast.