B.E.E. - Gerard Way - 9/22/14

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We're staying this is the bread eastern Ellis podcast Because you never learn it You're listening to the bread eastern Ellis podcast and I'm here at the podcast one studios in Beverly Hills with my guest George way A few days ago It was the 13th anniversary of 9/11 and for those of us who were living in New York at the time the anniversary You always brings up memories of the anxiety and fear and trauma that day you can't help but remember where you were What you were doing when the two planes hit the World Trade Center in Manhattan and I'm sure whether you were living in the city Or not it's still an uneasy reminder to deal with but living downtown as I was the events of that day after all these years Have a relentless searing clarity the horror of it always overwhelming unimaginable the awfulness of it permeated everything But it was also ultimately a transformative period for many of us as well a kind of personal wake up call for change The summer of 2001 had been the most anxious summer of my life up until then I was 37 and my boyfriend had left New York for six months that made a study in Berlin And so I was on my own left to my own devices even though as part of a hard partying gay couple those devices could be somewhat less Extravagant and the ones we share together and that summer became filled with a kind of low humming dread and despite the supposed Fun of promiscuity on the drugs and the drinking and the relentless socializing But none of that could tamp the dread down it just hovered everywhere for me And it stemmed from the fact that early in the summer I was working out of the crunch gym on 13th Street Just two blocks from my apartment when I suddenly blacked out and when I regained consciousness in an ambulance that was taking me to St. Vincent's I was told by a trainer from the gym who was accompanying me that I had suffered a seizure a pretty severe one for some reason I landed on well it must be connected to the up doses of clonipin I was taking daily to take the edge off and and maybe I was Dehydrated because I was hanging out with a very hard drinking crew and you know add to that dehydration and the Hellish heat in the city that summer and then the weird bouts of insomnia I was suffering from that summer and you know for me that was the perfect blend to cause the seizure and yet Maybe something else caused it and I became fearful in the path waiting room prone on a stretcher I started panicking and realized if I didn't get out of here something so black so awful would engulf me and everyone else in that Path waiting room that I had to leave St. Vincent leaving the trainer who was trying to persuade me to stay while I was Standing on a corner of 7th Avenue trying to wave down a cab my legs wobbling the headache blinding everything my arm was bleeding My doctor whose offices were in the second-door building just a block up for my apartment on the edges of Union Square Park had been Informed about the seizure and wanted to run some tests because to him It did not sound like the kind of seizure that was caused by a mild addiction to a benzo mixed with alcohol and soaring temperatures I kept promising to come in but the fear of him finding something stopped those tests from happening And so the summer continued a summer of being unable to concentrate on the novel I was working on the number of guys I was juggling just was kind of ridiculous I didn't even know what I was doing with that and there was the cocaine and there was the insomnia Which had nothing to do with the cocaine and then there was the stalker who would enter the narrative in the summer of 2001 long-handwritten fan letters were being sent directly to me at the apartment on 13th Street instead of to my publishing house or my Agents office and that fact was during the summer of 2001 alarming enough But it was the content of the letters that filled me with dread demands for me to get back to this person that we belong together That this person knew that I was the only one for them and if anyone else had me There was they're not so obscure notion that they wouldn't be able to have me the letters kept coming with no return address Just a PO box and soon envelopes were arriving some hand-delivered even longer more elaborate letters Packages started arriving filled with gifts including spices in small plastic bags My admirer wanted me to mix into drinks so I could get on the same wavelength And then there was the letter that intimated that my admirer and I should ingest a deadly mix of herbs and spices together So it would poison us and therefore we could be in heaven together where we could then have sex and experience quote-unquote Multitudes of orgasms together the admirer was watching the building had left messages with a door man New when I was leaving knew when I was home followed my progression throughout the city and at one point got past the front desk Well the door man were trading shifts and tried to get into my apartment Add this to the seizure the drugs the heat the insomnia my doctor repeatedly calling me asking me if I could make an appointment So we could run some tests concerning the seizure the absent partner in Berlin the book I was blocked on it all blew up white boy Problems I would argue now but in the summer of 2001 I was losing it today I would have taken care of all of these things like an adult but at 37 the fear exploded childishly and I remember very clearly on an August afternoon finding myself on the phone with the security division of my agency I didn't even know my agency had a security division who was asking me a series of routine questions about my stock or an Assuming tone while I paced the apartment the security division of the agency had asked me to place all of the contents I had received from the stock or an individual plastic bags and they had already been picked up by the security division And the head of the security division was looking at them while he was on the phone with me that late August afternoon The slightly amused tone of his voice when asking me the perfunctory questions both suit and enraged me You're not taking this seriously. I wanted to scream this person is ruining my life But in the same moment I thought that I also heard a voice in the back of my head was ringing no you're ruining your life This was the beginning where the real story of my novel Lunar Park began to change and reshape itself the writer creating the more Convenient and more dramatic narrative over the cold and sometimes less dramatic neutrality of facts The stalker my admirer was in fact just an over determined fan and when the man from the security division filled me in on how they Located this elusive stalker who both craved contacting it could only be linked to a PO box address And yes, it was a her and the voice over the phone told me that they had quote unquote dealt with her And when I asked what that meant exactly the voice on the phone told me not to worry about it She wouldn't contact me again. She didn't this was some time in late August of that summer And for some reason it prompted me to follow my doctor's orders and have a series of tests done to determine what might or might not have caused that seizure just a precaution I cut back on the coke mildly cut back on the drinking start up back in the way from the guys and began a new Outline for Lunar Park and I started sleeping again through the night things were clearing up on the night of September 10 I excused myself early from a really fun party in Lower Manhattan and that I had attended with my friend the writer Jonathan Leatham a party I would have stayed at but I had a doctor's appointment a kind of final checkup early the next morning Nothing had been found the cause of the seizure was never located And so early on the 11th at the second door at 8.30 I was in my doctor's office being examined when a nurse walked in And mentioned that a small plane had hit the World Trade Center Yes, people who were not down there thought it would have been a small plane The doctor and I thought this was curious and maybe cracked a nervous joke or two But then a nurse walked in again and said another plane and hit the other tower And a small swirling panic set in as we left the examining room and went into the waiting room Where everyone stood below the wall mounted television set and watched Transfixed with confusion. I left and walked the block back to my place And I'll never forget how crystal clear and blue the sky was on that morning In my apartment and watched the towers collapse and TV while my mother called me from Los Angeles I felt real fear that morning a kind of ice cold fear that anything could happen that anything was permissible And this opened up a new kind of door that said everything was out of control It also felt to me personally like the culmination of everything that was going on with me that summer I didn't know anyone who died in the towers but a girl I knew came over to my apartment around noon that day hysterical Friends of hers had escaped the towers early on and she was telling me story that she had heard from a particular friend Who had gotten out of one of the towers and when he finally stepped outside He was suddenly sprayed in the face with warm water and he had no idea where this water was coming from And then it happened again dousing his face and the studio was wearing and then he quickly realized it came from a falling body that it hit a lamp post and it wasn't water. I've never been able to shake off that anecdote or the images of him walking into his apartment and looking at the blood covering his face and sobbing in the shower as he scrapped it off. This was the world we lived in now. That night, walking around the East Village, picking up Thai food, I remember seeing two drunk girls at the bar of the Thai place and one of them was laughing drunk only. And I'll also never forget that laughter because even though it wasn't, it almost seemed like a small act of defiance. And honestly, I was relieved to hear it. The next three days, there was nowhere to go. You just watched TV, the entire city was swallowed up by this enormous tragedy. You could literally smell it in the air if you lived in Manhattan, a kind of chemical leak that seemed to take weeks to dissipate. That first week, everything moved to the kind of stunned deliberateness and there was no other point of reference except this apocalyptic disaster. But in the weeks that followed, for many of us, a new appetite for life was unleashed. And I remember feeling this so distinctly, a kind of rising toward something, we would no longer complain, we would no longer be bored, we would live a life, we would get things done. I mean, the sounds so spiritually mundane, but it was happening. I remember reading Jonathan Franz and the corrections. The first book I picked up a week after 9/11 and found myself so immersed in it that I was often as grateful that the book simply existed in this moment as I was moved by the book itself. And the fact that I was able to actually concentrate on a novel, I remember a group of us that fall after dinner in Tribeca slipping down to ground zero, actually moving somehow past each subsequent barricade until I realized we were actually standing at ground zero. It had been clean and it was brightly lit and what moved us into silence was it just looked so small that you're culminated in a packed Christmas party, I threw a lot of blues, but no frills. And seeing people I hadn't seen all year in one place after what happened in September, it was by far the most joyous party that I'd ever thrown. There was just a different vibe in there, things had changed so much. I realized very clearly that I was never going to be that person that I was in the summer of 2001 again. And I'm bringing this all up today because my guest is Gerard Wei, who is most famously known as the lead singer of the rock band, like chemical romance, which was started in 2001 and disbanded last year. And whose origin story I suppose begins with 9/11 and again looking at 9/11 as a transformative experience for so many people in the way that it made people realize something Gerard Wei on that morning in September was a young comic book writer on the subway coming to Manhattan to work as an intern, I think at the cartoon network. And he has said this often, but 9/11 was really the reason that my chemical romance happened in a way that I don't know, you realize life was too short, time was of the essence, whatever the cliche was for all of us, and that this was really the impetus to kind of move forward with whatever you wanted to do with your life. I mean, I don't know where you were exactly, did you witness it firsthand or were you on the train, and do you remember what that summer was like leading up to your decision to create my chemical romance? The summer leading up to it, I don't remember much of anything. Well, I remember drawing a lot because Cartoon Network was interested in a show I was coming up with called the Breakfast Monkey, and it was pretty silly, it was pretty absurdist, but there was this energy and momentum behind it and kind of a heat on it. So I was drawing all summer pretty furiously, like just that project storyboarding, designing characters, and then, you know, so that's all I remember of that summer, and then I was going in that morning of September 11th for a test run to pitch the show to executives to then see if my pitch was decent enough to show Cartoon Network. So then it was a commuter train because I lived in New Jersey with my parents at the time, so I graduated college, and then I walked this long walk to the commuter train, I got on it, and then, you know, slowly people started to say something like a plane hit the World Trade Center, just like you had heard that first plane. And everybody thought it was a sassna, you know, like God, that's horrible, and then, as you can get closer, you know, as we got the information that no another plane had hit, as we got closer to the buildings, you could see the smoke. So then we got to Hoboken, and I walk over to basically the edge of the water, and I'm still in New Jersey at this point, but we're all facing the building. And behind me, there's like at least 300 and something people, and I'm right at the edge, I'm like standing up against the railing, and then I just remember it going down, you know, and none of it felt like, I didn't internalize it, none of it felt like it was about me. I felt everything behind me, you know, and it was like an ocean of misery and panic, you know, and sadness and despair and desperation, and it was everything hit me at once. So I remember it pretty vividly, and on the train on the way back, you know, to your story, there was a mixture. There were some people saying, they were calling people up basically proposing marriage, you know, but then you had this one guy was sitting across from me, and he's like, I'm never having a kid. And so you had all these different reactions to it, these people that were going to change their lives, and these other ones that were just not going to participate, I guess. And that's what I remember, I remember taking the long walk home, and, you know, my mom was upset, and I don't know. Then, out of this, I mean, again, I mean, to take this kind of tragedy, I know, and then personalize it, is something artists do. I mean, it might be narcissistic, or, you know, kind of the ego taking over and away, but it happened, you know, it does change you. And I know that, again, this origin story for the band, for those who don't know, I mean, really did, you've been quoted as saying, that was the day that, okay, I'm going to do this now. I'm going to move forward, and what exactly was this? When I was on that train ride on the way back, so I was caught up in the horror on the edge of the water, and then I got on the train. And I saw that I heard this mixture of people talking about, you know, not wanting to bring a child in this world, and the other ones wanting to start a family, and all different things. And I sat there, and I said, God, I really got to make some kind of difference. I have to do something, you know. Making commercial art and trying to sell shows immediately, that was gone. I didn't want to do that anymore. I was just like, that's BS, why don't I want to do that? It seemed so trivial to pitch a cartoon show, you know. And later I remember my mother saying, well, people need to laugh and things like that. That stuff's important, people need that kind of thing. And I was like, no, they need something more potent, I think. And so I thought about music, and I was like, that's the only way I do how to express myself. So you do personalize the whole thing, and I was like, this is the only way I can do it, this is the only way I can express myself as through music, truly express myself. And then I just started writing songs. So you were born in 1977, and then you graduated high school, you go to the school of visual arts, or can you graduate there. And like, I get so many members of your generation, you want to get into graphic novels or comic books. So music really wasn't the first thing that you were interested in doing. You were as a guy in his early 20s, you were actually creating comic books and going and pitching to places like the Cartoon Network. Right. A big thing that happens a lot on this podcast, when we talk to musicians or artists, I was thinking about Kurt Bile and Stephen Malcolmist and Ezra Kanig, talking about how what happens, what creates the artistic personality, what happens in the childhood? Is it a sense of isolation, fear, pain, is it something else? There does seem to be kind of a link between creativity, wanting to express yourself that way. And a kind of, I don't want to call it the unhappy childhood. But I mean, from what I've wrote about you, I don't know if that necessarily was true for you. Or did you feel that kind of freakish alienation that so many people tend to then cultivate into? I did feel that alienation, but I think it was strange. It was because of what I was into. I don't know what happens these days for children because I think it's a bit different like comic books when I was a child, weren't something that everybody read. Being a Dungeons and Dragons, you know, wasn't something that everybody did. Listening to heavy metal at my age at the time was like third grade. Nobody in class was doing that. So I didn't have anybody to relate to. I didn't play sports. I hated sports. I was forced to play sports. And I was also forced to go to Sunday school or an extra additional day of school during the week at a Catholic school. So there was that was, you know, that's where I guess I got my fear from. All that awful stuff that was going to happen to everybody I loved and knew and myself. I did feel alienated though. I don't, you know, I think a lot of it has to do with what my interests were and the fact that I like to tell stories. I think kids are interested in. I, other stuff like girls and kicking footballs and I wanted to make things up constantly. So starting these little clubs when a movie would come out, I'd really like like if I was really into Ghostbusters, I would start a little club and see who would want to be into that. You know, so that's what I do. I wasn't really unhappy. I didn't get unhappy until I started to grow up and kind of become more imbalanced. And I guess I hit puberty and then these kind of imbalances happened to me. Which in terms of imbalances, were you talking about like taking, do you take anything and medications for those imbalances? They were just, they were just occurring naturally and do not do anything too. No, because it was really frowned upon mental health. Yeah, I like. going to a therapist. That really meant something was wrong with you. I didn't know anybody that went to a therapist. I couldn't even, you know, broach the subject with my parents because there is no way they would send me to a therapist, you know? - It's so interesting that over here in LA, it was just such the opposite that, you know, immediately if something, I mean, I remember going to a therapist that I think when I was eight, I mean, but might give you an insight into whatever Los Angeles was like in the early '70s. I have musicians on this podcast and then big fans up. - And I knew what my chemical romance was, but you guys weren't really on my musical rate on it with your first two records, you know? And I knew where the name came from because I was friends with Irvine Welch and I knew his book Three Tales of Chemical Romance and I don't remember him for a long time, but I really became aware when I heard a single off the record, The Black Parade. I remember this very clearly and it was called, I don't love you, which made me buy the CD. Yes, I actually bought the CD in 2007 and it was, I have to tell you, it was pretty much my soundtrack, a 207, but I loved all the songs and I loved the sound, I loved the concept, disenchanted, which I think I tweeted this was, I thought the greatest power ballad of the audience and the entire record was one of my favorite records of that decade. So the Black Parade was at your third record. I immediately bought the first two records, but The Black Parade remains for me, you know, the masterpiece and even though I was in my 40s, I think I knew why because it took me back in a way to when I was most in love with music, which was 70s to the early 80s, and it sounded in a way like a classic 70s record. I'm not in terms of production necessarily, but in terms of songwriting and showmanship that I felt at that time was missing from rock and I don't even know if I really cared so much about the meaning of it. I cared about the sound and the songs, the unapologetic bigness of it. You know, it was cinematic, it was anthemic, the theatricality, the huge hooks, the massive sound, it never sounded bombastic to me. It sounded much more yearning. There was a yearning on that record that I found so powerful. And Queen also seemed to be a guiding force, though. I'm not sure Queen ever made a record as cohesive as a Black Parade. I mean, I love Queen and I hope this is not a defamation to some fans, but as great as Queen was, it was very difficult for an entire album to be that kind of cohesive. You made two more records after the Black Parade that you weren't that happy with in terms of where the band was going, where we were going sonically. But what was, I mean, and not to get into the meaning or anything, but when you look back now and it's been about almost eight or nine years since you recorded the record, maybe more than that, what do you think about that record? - I think about all of the pain I was feeling. And I think, again, I still really, I had dabbled in going to therapy, but I hadn't really ever spent more than a couple months in therapy and then I was like, oh, well, but you trend. But I remember, but there was this burning ambition to make something completely insane. And I don't know where that came from. I've gone, at this point now, I've gone long past wanting to make a difference because of what happened in 9/11. And I'm way past that at this point. Now I'm obsessing over the craft and I'm obsessing over the songs and I'm obsessing over, you know, there's no more like call to arms. It's really just creating this thing that's so crazy to try to bring that to people, to try to make that kind of change. So it was a social change. I wasn't exactly interested in anymore. It was the sonic changes. 'Cause it wasn't like things on the radio, you know? There wasn't theater, there wasn't showmanship, there wasn't any of that. And that stuff I could really pour myself into. 'Cause putting the theatricality in the music meant I could combine my favorite things which was playing live and making music. So I could get that in there. I was basically performing live when I would sing these in the studio and I was really intense about it. But I think about the pain I went through. And I think about just the imbalances that I had and I didn't really identify them, I didn't know about them. I also went through a really bad breakup. And it was a very dark, difficult time. And as they say, you know, great art is always more now than that and stuff. - Yeah, and you also talked about that you had some problems with alcohol as well. - It did, yes. - And then that was taken care of during that period. - Yes, you're gonna. - Yes, I got in clean and sober during touring for the second record, three cheers for a sweet revenge. It was just one of these things. I think I just have a good radar for when stuff's getting too out of hand, you know? And so you have somebody that has these kind of imbalances and then you mix a lot of alcohol and pills and cocaine into that and it just spirals you out. And it just really, you know. And anybody that goes down that road is very dark. And you get to a point where you just don't want to live. And so then you realize, all right, well, that's a warning shot. I have to stop. - So parade was completely like sober and white knuckled in tense and I don't think anybody was comfortable around me. I don't think I was comfortable to be around. - So I was just re-listening to the record this last week as well as a new solo record, "Hesitant Alien", which we will talk about in a few minutes. But the one thing that I was thinking about, okay. 2006, 2014, 2006 versus 2014. The music business in 2006 versus the music business in 2014. And I was thinking, God, I guess I am of a certain demo where I do miss the idea of the event record in a way, the record that kind of speaks to everybody over a period of a year or so, which everyone is talking about. A collection of songs of the artists put together that somehow makes this fairly, you know, maximal cultural impact in a way. And the way that, of course, I mean, music is made now that doesn't really happen every now and then. I mean, maybe Adele would happen with that, I don't know. I mean, I don't even know if you necessarily, well, you are old enough to remember when those kind of albums would be coming out. I don't really know if it's happening now anymore because of the insistence of the single in a way dominating everything. Rather than the album, we were talking about this with Crvile was on the show and we were talking about what it means for a musician to make an album, a set of songs that are ordered in a certain way that have a meaning to them. And that the idea that people are basically, you know, my boyfriend's musician, he's 28, he really is into music, but he likes YouTube and he likes listening to music that way. I'm playing a CD in my car. He gets kind of, even though he likes the artist, he gets antsy after a track or two. What is your feeling about this? Are you reacting to this or is it just like, well, fuck it, I'm going to make what I'm going to make? But do you sense that kind of dimming that drifting away in a way that there is the 55 minute experience that I want you as an artist to listen to because this is what is on my mind? I mean, I think part of the reason that the Black Parade makes an impact on so many people was, that happened. They were listening to the whole thing. It was a suite of songs in a way that you, that was telling the narrative and that was telling the story. I rarely come across it anymore. If someone mentioned what I was talking about, if someone mentioned Arcade Fire and the suburbs, but I don't know, that kind of ambition in pop and rock right now, do you feel that it's elsewhere? - Hmm, you know, it's an interesting thing. Well, I've come to accept that that's the way things are now and it is singles based and it is basically, you have a situation where it's everything all the time as much as you want, you know? And I think that's fine. I'm completely accepting of that. And I guess I understood about myself that I didn't need to do that in order to have a career or support my family that you can still, you can still make the album, but you still have to realize that you are gonna play some sort of game in that you are going to release singles. You know? But I do think that event records, you know, pretty much are gone. But I think it's one of those things that people might end up missing. I miss them, you know? And not just for myself, it has nothing to do with me or the music I make. But I miss those things. I miss, you know, I grew up thinking about Zee Stardust and Diamond Dogs and watching, now I go on YouTube and I watch the weird little commercials for Diamond Dogs with Bowie that make no sense, you know? And I miss that. That's what I miss because there's a pageantry, there's a theater to it. I don't know. I know it's interesting because I know music is important to people and I know they need it and I know they love it. But I don't know if it has the same importance that it did, you know? - I don't know, I think a lot of it has to do with investment, investment and stuff. And I mean, going to a record store meant you were invested heavily in getting that music, going to a theater meant you were invested in seeing that film, going to a bookstore meant you were invested in getting that book the first day. It came out in a way. So that kind of investment granted these things, I think an importance that made them more special to us in a way. And the argument is that the easy availability to everything has also made everything feel, whether you like it or not kind of disposable. I feel that way as a novelist, I know people I know who make music feel that way, especially in the film industry right now. It's a big deal. and how, what kind of trend? transitional age are we in where this is just that transitional age and we get on to the other side Is it going to be better is it going to be worse? I think that that idea of investment is gone And I don't know what it's going to be replaced with and I also think that as someone who does love music and it does matter My my mom is 71 and still is probably bought that Barbara Streisand record that came out two days ago I think that the availability also of so much music right now is both I think a lovers dream and also a nightmare kind of because it's like Where do you go? Who's going to show you want to listen to right and I do feel overwhelmed in terms of like well God that sounds kind of good, but then I see that there's like you know 200 reviews and pitchfork or whatever So I don't know how do you navigate around it and I'm not saying that but I worry about this all the time But how do you kind of navigate around this whole notion of Investment and disposability in a way. I mean look I still write. I mean, it's not gonna change that But you do have to keep one eye I think on the landscape that you're involved in You know the way that I process it and then deal with it is I you know first I accept it for what it is and you know to almost not back pedal but correct a little what I was saying You know, I know music is vital. You know, it is vital and people needed but it's the disposable Nate It is more disposable so What I've I've come to think about it is you just need to make more and you need to make lots of it if it's if it's going to be Consumed that quickly and people are gonna have moments with is that quickly and they're if those moments are passing You can still make something that lasts forever But I made it work for me basically what I did is I said I'm gonna be Ten times more creative or my output's gonna be a lot higher You know, which was something that wasn't happening in my chemical romance for a number of reasons one of which is being caught in this big Machinery and then you're in this path or this track of like Torfer two years or a year and a half then spend a year trying to make a record then put the record out then do the whole thing over So you're really averaging a record every two and a half to three years. That's not good, you know And that's not working for anybody making music, but there used to be a time where an artist was prolific and they'd put out two albums in a year Or they do things like that. I think that is a way to exist I think that is how you you meet everybody halfway and say all right if it's off your radar in two months Then I'm just gonna make more stuff that makes me happy to make the stuff. So so that's that's my my way of dealing with it The Bret Easton Ellis podcast at podcast one dot com Our desire to learn doesn't stop after college and that's the motivation behind the great courses These are fascinating video and audio lectures from top professors and experts in their fields I just watched their course writing creative nonfiction by award-winning professor and New York Times best-selling author To Laura Masio, and it took me back to the creative nonfiction courses that I was taking in college Where we concentrated on the new journalism everyone from Tom Wolf to Joan Didian and how we learned new fictional techniques in journalism How to ground the content in a more personal and compelling way Professor Masio guides you through the entire writing process from research in your topic to writing your first draft and marketing your work These are great tools to master the skills of storytelling. 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It's Eddie Trunk inviting you to download the Eddie Trunk podcast at podcast1.com Gonna have some fun each and every week mixed bag of a lot of things Interviews with some of your favorite artists maybe talk to some of the behind-the-scenes people get into some commentary Answer some of your email will have some some good fun So don't miss it the Eddie Trunk podcast every Thursday at podcast 1.com. That's podcast ONE dot com The Bread East and Ellis podcast Ever I'm talking to musicians I know about the US music scene. I mean they often look at me What do you mean what scene? There isn't really yeah? I agree with that and also just like almost the CITIFICATION of music in terms of for example the VMA is being so heavily promoted so widely discussed in social media Kind of suggests that the the not that rock or pop music should be or veer toward the adult in a way But there does seem to be I think creating songs within this kind of disposable culture a kind of like kind of attitude in terms of I guess seriousness of intent I mean, you know whether it's blurred lines whether it's happy this year, you know whether it's the song from frozen I mean the big songs really seem to be almost like kids songs in a way and there doesn't seem to be that kind of well It's still being made because I'm that this kind of smart depressed angry guy making and themic, you know joyous rock music is Another thing that I hear a lot for musicians who are you know, I wouldn't say Disenchanted with the music scene, but still it is it's it's something that it constantly comes up with each guest that I have on us He's into music, but there's also you know as you as you said there's there is a way to play the game and once and I even I've kind of figured that out at in a completely different business But there was that there was that demand from say the publishing house that they really ideally would like you to put out a book every or every Other year so you could have you know in the in the days when there was hardcover paperback So they would really want one book hardcover and then While the paperback comes out the following or you're working on the next book And that's kind of how the ideal writer that the publishing house wants and when that and then you do the tour and it's kind of like this Endless thing that I just could never grasp and I couldn't understand how to make how to write like that and so in a way You know, there's a lot of things that you that you do now that I would never have thought of like the idea that long-formed journalism for some reason Seems to be a thing of the past and that's why the podcast seemed interesting to me in order to like instead of doing a profile on you or instead of You know, I could kind of mix a kind of journalism doing a profile with a with a celebrity and also talk about whatever was on my mind And I was really surprised that the podcast resonates with people in a way that I noticed my long-formed pieces weren't necessarily people would read half of them and then I'd see in the comment section that they hadn't gotten to the final paragraph so and Being a bit of a trickster not taking it all so seriously not overreacting to the trolls or whatever But kind of playing a social media game in a way and let the chips fall where they may I know that there was a really interesting thing that happened when one of your songs was used on glee Right and that that was it did suggest the trickster in a way and I guess the song was singing Yeah, I was saying yep and what happened with that what happened is you had a you had a situation where We had scrapped a record and we were making another entire album, you know I wasn't happy with the record we've made we had to go make another one so Things the stakes start to get a lot higher once that starts to happen and the pressure starts to get a lot bigger you know And so things come up like they want to use sing I mean it's a song called sing You know and and it's largely about getting caught in the grind of the gears of the corporate process You know so it's a good song. Thank you. It's a really good song. I like it So then things start to happen like well American I don't want to use the song because it's called saying and this show wants to use the song because it's called singing glee It wants to do it because it's called saying and so you know you hit a point where you're like well I don't I it's like I guess we could say now But the stakes are so high like so much money went into this record and we're just trying to stay above water It wasn't even like it wasn't even like oh, we're gonna make so much money doing this It was like well, let's let's do something nice for the label Because they just kept throwing money at us to make this record and Let me go on a sonic crusade or something so and then there's the other side of you which says I like my music to be enjoyed and And who might say how someone enjoys it if they if the only way they're gonna hear it is through a cover version on a TV show Well, they're still hearing my song and you start to look at things that way and not because somebody told you to look at them that when you start to realize when did I become such an elitist about who can listen to my music exactly and this is what happens now daily hundreds of times daily there was this kind of the fake collective outrage backlash of the people who twist the narrative take the narrative out of context cake the near you just you just gave a very nuanced and complicated reason for why this happened now automatically on social media there is no nuance there is no context immediately started like screaming at you it was crazy yeah and how you ever had a reaction like that towards you or the band before in I think so in in a lot of different ways I mean well you know breaking up the band that was intense you know the reaction to that I guess we can get to that in a second but the what's interesting about the glee reaction is um largely people are are misinformed about what went on obviously because you don't get out there and talk about it but a lot of people assumed that we didn't authorize that like what do you think about glee doing this to your song and what do you think of and see like what we had to say yes I mean I'm laughing but then I think if I was 13 or maybe I wouldn't know the vagaries of the business right right and I'm fully prepared to take ownership over that decision too but you seem to think that I didn't even get to make one and that's insane you know that so that was the craziest part to me I didn't notice too much of a backlash I just noticed it came up I know there were people that just hated the show right and they're like why is this song on this show um and that was kind of it that's that's what I felt but if we get backtrack a second there's something interesting that you were talking about right before all this where you were talking about your long form journalism versus like something like a podcast and things like that so to get back to what we're saying I think that when I say the output becomes greater it doesn't necessarily mean like make a full album because those are hard to make as our novels I'm sure very hard to make you can't make one a year I mean maybe you can but yeah seems really insane right try to make one a year right but the thing is people like what you do like they right you have people that love it and they just want you to do more and if the only way that you can do that is by writing a book when you can and then doing a podcast and being active on Twitter like what did I just do I just made a scene like some just I just wrote a couple of comics like there's so there's always something going on exactly and that's what I guess the real trick is it's like yeah you can't make a great album every year you you know I don't know maybe you can maybe it happens to you once in your career you make three of them in a row and they're just that's rare it's rare it's very rare you know but I mean the other thing is that and I and I've been kind of attacked for this for I mean maybe it's because you know I had a production company I make movies and I write movies I've been working on TV shows and directing a film and writing I'm still writing prose and doing this and I still get a backlash from the literary community which is a lot older and still says well that's not what a novelist should be doing you don't really represent the literary ideals and I'm really at a point where I just think that's just so old-ass and empire and like why does anyone I mean especially when we have the availability to do so many things now why would you be pushed into some sort of corner where you only write prose and also the idea it was really interesting in terms of who was I talking with it was I think it was Ezra Kanig we were talking about he had performed on the Oscars and we were talking about how different the idea of being an enigma is for his generation compared to I don't know George Clooney's generation in a way where the more inigmatic you were the more you kind of hid there was more of a fascination with you away and the idea that is dimming that idea is dimming and the idea that we were talking especially about how uncomfortable Leonardo DiCaprio looked he's also someone who kind of espouses this he does not really do interviews at all except he has a movie out and he really does keep himself as hidden as possible and it looks so unbearably uncomfortable on the Oscars and Ezra and we're talking about well there is this idea that people are still kind of holding on to this sneak that they think they have about themselves and I think it's kind of valuable whereas it seemed that that's just not true anymore and that I was really surprised by when I was thinking about Ezra I was looking online about you know stuff about him I was reminded yet again that that is very different from how I was raised within the media and what the media told me to do and not to do it was basically we're holding out for one magazine we're gonna do the big profile right that's gone I mean and I think to play that game is kind of I think you're a little lost and you kind of don't your antenna is not attuned to what people desire and want from you yet now the mystery comes from other places that's that's really what and and in figuring out how to use social media and things like that because I used to subscribe to the same thing of like no you just close yourself off it wasn't a tactic it was just actually what I enjoy I totally agree it was just what I wanted to do as well yeah I just wanted to close myself up I didn't want to talk about the art I didn't want to make any more than I was compelled to but then I realized we're being stripped of that mystery we're being stripped of that you know kind of thing so it become then you realize oh it's I have to be sharing but it's what you share that is mysterious that then changes I started the more I started to share the more I started to hear from people saying I know now less about you from what you've just said yeah and and that's actually the way I am I'd like to think that I it'd be easy to say I I cooked that up or I thought that up but that is really just what happened when people are like well we want you to share and I was like all right you want me to share and then I made it weirder you know for everybody so so it's like yeah you can't just like live in a hut anymore you know if you're an artist or that's being stripped away at least you know but it's what you put out there that that's how you can do the real mystery and the weirdness you know right well I can look that completely happened to me when I got on Twitter and I went through this couple of years of I think at times using it correctly in terms of giving out information and then yet other times putting out opinions of things that again pissed a lot of people off because they're out of context and they felt I was being partly being purposefully snarky which I wasn't I didn't feel that way and I just thought I had an opinion about it isn't what isn't what Twitter is supposed to be about and I really develop this reputation is kind of like the horrible troll that was always talking about these you know giving my opinion every movie I saw in every record I was listening to and being very you know honest and transparent and in a way I thought it was very revealing of me and in fact it was building a new narrative that had nothing really to do with me that people who wanted to know more about me now knew less in a way right you know we were talking about this culture of outrage and you were about to talk about what happened I mean the time that I guess you were probably most I don't know last out at right thing was when the breakup of my chemical romance right finally I heard which was yeah you announced last year yeah yeah it's 2013 it was um it was I was fully prepared for it though so I guess because I had started you know I had I had moments on social media where I was still learning how to use it and I had ups and downs and trolls and all that stuff like everybody else has but I was really prepared I think because I was so firm in my line and I knew what I wanted and I knew that I wasn't going to keep doing it I and I knew I was the reason I was doing that was because I believed in the band so I wasn't going to keep doing it and I was so firm in that that when the backlash did happen I didn't feel it it was the first time I've been on social media and actually didn't feel anything and it felt nicer to just simply be there and occasionally respond to somebody or it felt good to be there for people that needed somebody there for them and as as well as I needed them and so really quickly it felt like the backlash was was fast and it was huge and then but quickly it went away you know and that was nice I think because I didn't engage in the way that angry people want you to engage you know right for some reason I find it easier to deal with that I guess in a way and I always related to the fact that I have always been criticized ever since I was a young writer that when I first got I mean people tend to forget that I got bad reviews from my first book good reviews too but it really built up an armor very quickly right so when I get attacked on social media and I get attacked a lot I don't know for some reason I don't block people like and I have I have a few who follow me on Twitter who are just like relentless it's fine I'm not gonna you know the mute feature works great though nobody ever knows they've been muted it's like they're just yelling at a brick wall at that point but can't you still know we can still find out whether you're really on someone's radar or not right yeah if you go check them out they don't know you're doing that either it's it's pretty great mute's great me change my life like well it's just you're cleaning up you you can clean up your you know you're out replies to you know if you if you're getting spammed or you're getting right you just mute it you never see it again and if somebody is genuinely create you know the the worst kind of trolling I guess that happens well there's awful trolling that happens where people are threatening people yeah of lives, especially women, and it's horrible. I guess the other kind of trolling, which is not nearly as severe, is when people start to build multiple accounts, this gets rid of that, because they don't know. They think their account is still working on you, and it's really great. So now that I've said that, people are gonna just make multiple accounts anyway. I think I've been muted. But tell you what, one of the things Twitter has definitely done to me, it's so interesting, 'cause I used to do, you know, I share my opinion on stuff too. It really numbed me to giving a shit about anyone's opinion anymore, even my own. - Yeah, yeah. - Like, I don't. I was using, what is that? They're Spotify, and then there's Ardeo, right? I used to use Ardeo. I loved Ardeo. - I was just Spotify, yeah. - Yeah. And then this one thing would happen where I would listen to a record on Ardeo, and then right below it, it was just people fighting about the album and making bullshit opinions, it's just opinions, and I had to scroll past that to use the controls, and every time I would look, 'cause it's like a car accident, and I would just read them, and I got to this point where I was like, I can't use this service anymore. I don't give a shit with anybody thinks about this. I don't care if somebody thinks this is the worst, Jesus, and Mary Chain record, or that. I don't fucking care. - I know, I mean, it does kind of erode the idea of caring about people's opinions, which is kind of too bad, because there was a time when I, there were people that I, oh, I want to know what he's going to say about that record, and it's like Grail Marcus, or a really interesting writer who writes about rock music or film criticism, there are so many voices out there that it's very hard to locate it. But I think it's all really about opposition. So much of life is about people opposing things, just to oppose them, and it is really prevalent in the culture, and I was thinking about how, there was this thing, I don't know if you saw the thing about the Kent State t-shirt that came from Macon Apparel, and the massive predictable wave of moral outrage, where again, I think an artifact was not necessarily put into a context where there could be a very powerful message about that t-shirt rather than the immediate, the victims, what about the victims of Kent State, rather than, well, that is a symbol of the victims of Kent State, there's a bullet hole in his blood all over a Kent State t-shirt. But people automatically wanted to take kind of the sentimental narrative, the victim narrative, and that seems to be the common narrative right now. And again, it goes back to context and kind of this outrage. I mean, what do you make about the collective throng that immediately jumps on something like that? And true, it lasts 24 hours more or less than we're onto the next thing, right? You know, it used to bother me. Well, the biggest thing that bothered me was I would just see people turn into bullies, and that was really, just, it's not a good feeling, it's not scary, you're not, 'cause then, 'cause then you watch it won't go away. So you're not worried about, well, when is it my turn? 'Cause it's always everybody turn. - It's okay when he's turning this true. - It'll be your turn, but then you're just like, yeah, but when my turn comes, like, they still give people awards that hit women. - Yeah. - Like, it's awful. And for me to sit there and worry about when it's my turn, I'm not too worried about it, just for voicing an opinion or something. - You know, so, I feel that, yeah, it's just, it's passing, it's like anything else. It's just so fleeting, it's like, it's another thing to register and forget about. But when I saw people turn into bullies, that's really scary to me. Even people that I may follow or look up to or people whose work I admire, when they just jump on somebody. - I agree, but I am of a slightly different generation than you, and of course, my notion that was pounded into me of bullies was physical. I was a physical in position. So for me, I never really grasped the online bullying thing, and neither did a lot of friends my age. It was, I mean, I'm closer to it now because I'm dating someone who explained it to me what is about, but it was difficult for me to finally kind of grasp that idea. And, you know, one of the worst fights I think me and Todd had ever gotten into was over the Tyler Clementine case where the Rutgers University kid who killed himself after a web prank that his roommate played on him. And tweeted about something, and that drove him, you know, to jump off the bridge anyway. But now living with someone who has gone through it much more often than I had, I kind of get it now. Getting to your new record, hesitant alien, as I said, which I loved right before I came here this morning, I was thinking about Jimmy Fallon. I was thinking about poor Jimmy Fallon, sitting at that desk, loving everything that comes across. This is the most amazing band. You're fantastic in that movie. You're such an awesome person. I was just landing on that because I don't want to sing that way, and I really do only have people on that I really like and use music. I like, so it's not like this is a promotional podcast in any way. I just, I've been listening to your solo record for the last month and just loving it. And I also, what you said about singles, I think, is really holds true for this record. Has it been alienated? It seems like eight or nine singles are on that record. And it really does seem to fall into the way really smart pop is being made now. I mean, I remember we were talking about the, remember the monolithic CDs that ran 78 minutes or whatever. Now it's rare to come across those CDs anymore, but you've made a really tight pop record. And I don't know, I think it's my favorite of your records besides the Black Parade. And I know that you talked a lot that you wanted to make a kind of Brit pop record, but it was something you were thinking about a lot. I mean, that was one of the influences on this. And how did this come about? I mean, did you always know that you were going to make a solo record that you were going to do this? I didn't. I just, you know, I guess one of the great things I found out about myself was, you know, when the band dissolved and broke up, I felt like still making music. And that was a really nice thing to wake up one day and go, oh, this is what I do, I make music. I don't just make music as I'm in a band. I do this anyway. So I did that for a while and I got about six songs in and I was like, oh, I'm making an album. That's a nice feeling to wake up and realize you've done something as opposed to sit there and go, well, I have to make an album. You know, when it becomes I have to, I have to, I have to. And not the good kind of have to. It's no fun and the stuff doesn't come at that great. So then I was like, oh, I have something. And they are in a good way. It's sonically, I feel like a record's cohesive but it's fragmented in what it's about. You know, and they are these like little fuzzy pop songs. Yeah. I like that about it. I haven't gotten to make anything like that ever. Everything I've ever made has been this big cohesive lengthy. Narrative, generally, right. But so, I mean, I'm gonna ask you because what is it about? What was, what is hesitant alien about? In a way, if you had to like sum it up, go, well, I was thinking about this. So I was wanted to do this. When people ask me that about novels, I kind of have to gravel over the plays and go, well, this was what I was thinking about. I was feeling this and I wanted to kind of like do this. Where was your, what was your headspace? Where were you listening to? What did you want to emulate? What did you want to, what was influencing you at this time? Yeah, one of the things that I thought about, you know, one of the things I do and I did it with every record. I feel like I've gotten to make with the band or, you know, on my own. And I feel like I put the feelers out of it. I call it putting my hands in the soil. I put my hands in the soil and I feel what the world wants. And I'm like, what is the world really? Or what do they need? Not necessarily what they want right now. But what do they need? What's missing? Or what do I want to listen to? And then I think about that. And the ideas start to generate. So when I started making these songs, I put my hands in and kind of was like, we need something fuzzy. We need something poppy, but we need something fuzzy and sonically challenging. And you know, it has elements of shoegase and Brit pop. And all these things that these kids aren't getting exposed to, you know? And I was thinking about the music from one of the happiest times in my life was going to art school. And I was listening to Supergrass and Blur and Paul. - That period of the period, yeah. - Yeah, it's such a great period of music. And the All Rocks great at that time too, of Teenage Fan Club. And, you know, so it's all happening. And I felt so young and alive and going to this art school and so happy even though it was like, you know, getting all this incredible amount of debt going there. So that's what I returned to. It was like being in my chemo garments, I made what I felt was missing. And then when that ended, I went, it's like I became a music fan again. I went back to that place where I was 19 or 20. And I was like, yeah, I want to make this. I want to make this stuff I listen to, you know? - Well, you've also said that your intention was to make 100% uncompromised art. Using the currently leased radio friendly instrument, the guitar. - Right. - Where did that come from? Again, was that a throwback to that glorious period of music in the '90s? What was it that you, that was an intention? - It was an intention. Firstly, it was 'cause it was what I wanted to hear. It was what I felt was missing. And I said, "God, I want to listen to a poppy fuzz rock record." I, you know, I can't really find that right now. - No, I know. - Yeah, that's why I think I loved it so much is because that's my favorite kind of record too. So when I was sent it, I thought, "What is this going to be like?" And then I immediately like, "Track too." I just fell in love with it. But. - Yeah, so the intent was to take something that was basically being underused at the moment, which is the guitar and a fuzz pedal. I'm sure there's no fuzz pedals going on. - Right. - In kind of modern rock or maybe pop. Definitely pop, there's no fuzz pedals happening. I don't even know if there's guitars on half of it. And that's fine. But yeah, I thought, "Okay, no one's using this right now, so I can do whatever I want with it." And that's kind of how I felt about the guitar, like, nobody's using it. I mean, you know, obviously people are using it, but it's not getting on the radio in the way that we're used to, or it's not present. Like, the vocals mixed so far on top of the guitar that you're kind of hearing it, you know? Whereas I wanted to mix the vocal in with the guitar. I wanted people to experience that, because it had been a long time since they could. I was also surprised that when you were talking about, because you've been talking a lot about guitar heroes and people, you know, guitars you would mark, it's kind of surprised that Kerry Brownstein came up, which she's been on the show before. I really liked her. I was a huge fan of Wild Flag, as well as Leader Keeney. What was it about Kerry's guitar plan that you responded to that you liked? You know, it was this technicality. It was like a really beautiful math problem, you know? And it was fierce, and it had elements of the kinks to it, and her and Corin, the way they played together, was, you know, really amazing. Like, this is weird little complex layers that are just pretty and dangerous, and, you know, seeing her live was another part of what was so inspiring to me about her. Like, Leader Keeney, seeing them live was amazing, and I fixated on Kerry, because she's kind of this, like, dynamo on stage, like this whirlwind, and she's, you know, just, like, thrashing on her SG, and she's playing these very complex little things that just sound huge, you know? So it had a big impact on me. I think going to see a lot of women perform had a big impact on me. For example, going to see Helium was a very, very big thing for me. Like, Mary Timiny was the other, my other guitar hero, you know? When I first heard the Keeney kill, I knew that I started to prefer women doing it, you know, because at the time they were doing the rawest kind of rock. That's right. You know, and they were taking the most risks, so that's immediately where I went, but Helium was a really big impact, because it, it came out of Chicago. And I think the idea was that it was coming out of this world of, like, the pumpkins, at least that's the way magazines were trying to sell them, but it wasn't that at all. It was, again, these complex arrangements, lots of fuzz, and just kind of, like, witchcraft, you know? They just had, yeah, they just had a tremendous impact on me. Where did the video idea for no shows come up from? Because I was trying to explain to my younger partner that it reminded me of a lot of the early music video shows that I watched when I was 18 or 19, that kind of had that feel, what was the idea behind that? Well, the director, Jennifer, Juniper Stratford, she had a very strong vision, you know, we sat down and we talked, and she said, what are you thinking? And I said, I just think performance. I'm thinking performance in white room, and we discussed the possibility of it being very low-fi, and she said it was really her concept. She said, I want to take the cameras they used back then, because she's like all this stuff you're referencing, like T-Rex videos, and Bowie videos, and all that. I'm going to use those cameras, and the aspect ratio is going to be true to size too. It's going to, you know, it's not going to be widescreen, and I'm going to shoot to the real tape, and that's how we're going to make it. We're going to build a set exactly like they had it, and fill it with, you know, people that are kind of uninterested, just like it would have been. And I was varying to that, and we collaborated a little on the look of people, but she had a very strong vision, so that was all her. And I'm just curious, and you're going to be doing a tour for this. Yes, and that's going to start when? That starts in San Francisco on the 12th of October. Finally, musicians who have been on the show have often talked about quite honestly been quite candid about what they don't like about the music business right now. I'm not sure if you're wondering, is there a conig, Stephen Maltmuss was railing against the Eagles, Kurt Vile, Ceddy hated Muse, not asking you to select or single out anywhere. But is there anything right now that's going on in music culture that you are? That's an FMATU that you're just not into, and it's just not going to happen for you. I have to think, and it's not because I'm being diplomatic. I feel like I'm drastically out of touch. Do you feel that that has anything to do with being a parent at all, or not, or with me, a father? Because I know so many people who have kids who are so in touch with the culture at one point, you know, they're constantly telling me, look, I don't go to the movies anymore. Yeah, look, I had to watch Frozen for the eighth time. Do you ever think that that's it, or do you think there's just like a distancing as you get older? I think there's both, but the first two statements you just said are absolutely true for me. I don't go to the movies anymore, and I've seen Frozen a lot of times. So I think I think it really has to do with that. I think being a parent, I only have so much time, and I use that time to make stuff. So I'm not using it to see like what's currently hip right now, or you know, which is, I don't know, maybe that's a problem. Maybe I should be aware of what's going on, but I've always felt like I've had a sense of what people've needed just by putting my hands in it, and just kind of like feeling it out, really feeling energy. You know, and that sounds real hippie-dippy, but it's always been there for me to access the energy. But I'm trying to think that I'm genuinely trying to give you something, if something I don't like that's going on in music. You also don't have to. Okay. So don't worry about it. I didn't like the folk thing. I didn't like that. That's one. I didn't like folk. I just couldn't get down with it. Well, because it seemed really corporate. 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