Avsnitt 384 - Mentice – från transformation till tillväxt och marginallyft

-Å det är välkomna till veckans avsnitt av analysboden. -Hallo. Den här veckan sa att fortsätta har Maria Karlsson nåt som är på med oss i studion. -Hallo. Det innebär att vi fortsätter prata live-science. -Ja. Förra veckan pratade vi Paxman. Den här veckan kommer vi att prata om bolaget "mentis". Först tillsammans med dig, precis som förra veckan ska vi gå igenom lite lingå, så att vi hänger mig i kriset. Sedan kommer vi att bjuda in vd-frans till studion, och höra vad han har att säga i en bolaget. Det blir spännande avsnitt. Ja, mycket kul framför oss. Om vi började där, kort och gott, "mentis". Vad gör bolaget? Jag har inte hört så mycket av någon tidigare, så jag är väldigt ny på det här kriset, men väldigt frenglat vad ställningar för produkt. Till och börja med att kanske vara bra och nämna att vi bevakar "mentis" inom ramen för vår "commission research". Och då har vi ett motivert värde på 25 till 35 kronor per aktie. Och vill man läsa mer om "mentis"? När man har lyssnat klart på havesnittet, är det bara gå in i båren hemsida och läsa mer. Men "mentis" då? Svenst "mentekbolag", utveckla mjuk och hårdvarobaserade simuleringslösningar för internationella behandlingar, framför allt inom neurojärta årsjäl. Och något enklare förklarat att de hjälper helt enkelt "mentekbolag". Läkade kliniska tim att tränna på avancerade behandlingar, innan de växer ut för de på basenterna. Och för "mentek" då gör jag alla med device som man kan använda inom kärlsjurgi, och då "mentis" till att de har "trännings" simuleringsmjukvara, så doktorerna kan tränna på det. Och varför typ av simulationer är det vi pratar om här? Nu pratar vi om de katheter baserade och minimalt invasiva procedurer. Sufsvara ord som har i den här veransken. Men det är en betydde att läkaren behandle patienten inom ett litet instik. Varnatvis i jumsken, till exempel, är stället för att genomföra en stor öppen, till exempel, hjärtopraktion. Och så får man in en tundslang, en katheter, det genom blodskälen. Och då följer man, då följer ju läkare instrumentet upp till hjärtat. Och så följer man samtidigt idealtid på de kan billera för att veta vart man är i kroppen någonstans. Och ett exempel, till exempel, det är av en akutstrokt, då får man in de här katheterna, så får man in den hela vägen till avlägsna blodproppen. Eller, till exempel, om man ska byta en liten klaff i hjärtat, det kan man göra också på med liknande parasidur. Så de bolagets ambition på lång sikt, då är det ju studia. Det här klingiska arbetet före, under och även efter de här väldigt komplexa en ingrepp. Är det bara jäkta? Eller kan man ju liksom vandra med en akutheten till andra delar och kroppen och utföra? Ja, en grepp. Alltså, alltså kanske hjärna och så har ju blivit en väldigt stort stort område förväntig, så att jobba med. Men det kanske vi ska prova på mer med frans när han kommer hit. Så då tolkar jag dig då som att istället för att göra, till exempel, en stor operation där man kanske behöver öppna stora delar och kroppen. Den behöver liksom göra snitt, så kan man då vandra via blod. Precis, exakt så. Så att ponera att återigen en liten klaff i hjärtat, som sett till att blodet pumpas korrekt och inte pumpar tillbaka dåligt syrfattig blod. Om den har blivit lite taskig lite gammal om man behövde utan då förut så hade man då behövt öppna upp bröskorgen. Det är en väldigt omfattande operation, man bara hör på hur åter. Men nu mer är att man ju ser att faktiskt ganska lång tid tillbaka så kan man göra det via jumsken. Men du vet läkarna att de går rätt i kroppen. Man följer på runt generaltid och då använder man till exempel kontrast. Och det vet man inte om att du är färd där så att man är på rätt plats eller man är på fel plats. Är det en liten kamera? Nej, det är kontrast där runt kan du vilja. Det finns ju ganska många svåra ord också när man läser på om det här kaiset. I GT1 kan du förkla dig lite kort, vad du står för? Det är lite precis det som vi prispratat om. Det är Image Guided therapy eller bilstud behandling då. Och det är just att man gör en tidinsortillumtid när man realtid på röntken bilder så att man vet att man handlar rätt. Jag pratade om kattete. Det är också viktig att så vara det för någonting var en jättejetesmal slang som är det man vandrar med. Du berättade det här lite innan vi räkade att man även kan få drag hjälp med hjälp av en liten wire. Precis. Katteten är då väldigt tunt, lite instrument. Det kan man få in med en via blodskäljen då, till exempel till hjärtat. Och ofta så använde den ju väldigt tun och mycket. Ofta använder du läkarna först en ledare än så här "guide wire" som gör att det fungerar lite som en typ en rels för den här katteten. Det kan ju bli väldigt smal till vissa blodskälsen som brukar vara svårt att komma dit man vill. Det kanske är en väldigt bra fråga frågan för en tjärlserur, inte för mig. Jag har aldrig testat, men jag har inte testat mentisk simuleringshårdvaren. Då ser man ganska tydligt på bilderna på de här procedurna. Det är inte de småaste källande du går via. Däremot inom näro kan du mycket väl stämma och då är det väldigt komplexa ingrepp och väldigt komplexa devices. Det rör sig om, men det ser vi väldigt mycket fram emot att prata mer frans om. Vilka procedur är det det rör sig om typiskt för mentisk? Är det såna standard procedurer som är lite ofte själv? Eller kan det vara mer komplicerade ingre? Det kan vara lite både också, att man tänker till exempel så att vår publik kanske förstår lite bättre. Men till exempel akutsdroker det anurism. Anurism är en utbuktning på skärvägen som man måste lösa på något sätt. Eller till exempel då återigen det här med strukturerda problem med hjärtlat. Till exempel återigen en kraft som man kanske blir lite taski. Sedan har vi här den här med digitalt villing eller digitalt vin. Kan du berätta lite om det? Ja, då är det här, när man använder den verkligen patientsbildet data, alltså röntgenbildet, till exempel för att skapa ett stränningsfald. Och då kan ju timet, alltså läka de timet. De kan öva just på den här människans anatomi och då vet de lite bättre vad de ska möta på vägen för den riktiga proceduren utförs. Och det är då att de rörelser mentissatser mycket på, och det kan man göra inom väldigt många olika ingrepp. Om vi hoppar över till kundsidan för mentis, så hur ser det ut där? Vad har man för kunder? Är de stora sjukhus som man tänker, och är liksom läkare eller där med kunden? Ja, de har ju två stora huvudkungrupper om man ska tänka om man ska dela upp det så. Det första är det och det absolut största. Det heter MDI, som de ofta bedänner är, och det är de medikol, device, industriell, så de olika med teknikbolagen. Och globala tillverkar det då. Och de här aktörerna då, då har man vänder mentis-lösningar i väldigt många olika syften. Det är liksom utbildning, det träning, det försäljning, det marknadsföring och så vidare. Och även så att de ska utveckla en ny produkt, så kan de också använda mentis-simulieringslösningar. T.ex. om de ska lansera en ny implantat eller nykaterer eller en ny lösning, och behöver utbilda sina doktorer och globalt som använder den deviceen. Och andra kundengrupperen är då hattkörsystems, och då tänker man på den här klassiska som vi pratar väldigt mycket här. Hattkörsystems universitets sjukhus, att att läkare eller blivande sjurger eller sjurger som är opererare aktivt, att de får träna på deras ingrepp. För att sätta bolaget lite kontext också, vi har ett annat svensk till bolag, som jobbar med simulieringslösningar och träning inom olika ingrepp som heter Södrekel Science. Hur skiljer sig dem här på bolaget något? När största skillnaden tror också att skiljer sig, verta punkterar att vi bevakar även Södrekel Science. Men det största skillnaden är faktiskt just kundgrupperen för Södrekel Science, som är lite 50/50 när det gäller mättekindustrin och sjukhus, universitets sjukhus och så. För mentis är ju universitets sjukhusen väldigt, väldigt liten del av försäljningen. Jag tror att om man tänker på Q2 för mentis och stog just segmentet för 70 miljoner av totalt, och typ inte jag misminner mig, och så att sjukhus och sjukhussystemen är ju väldigt liten del av försäljningen. Södrekel Science är ju som som jag nämnde för att det är ju liksom mer 50/50, men det stämmer ju att de båda jobbar med det simulieringstechnik, och andra stora skillnaden är ju att mentis är så himla nischade. Men det är väldigt nischade mot just det här som har kallas Kärlsjurgi, som vi pratar om här, och Södrekel Science är mycket, mycket bredare. Det är liksom allt från ultra ljud till robotessisterat kyrgi och allt möjligt. Om vi fortsätter lite på i dagsspå där och sätter kontext, kan du denna lite market cap, hur har historisk inkärning sett ut? Vad är försäljningen och den biten? Ja, det här är ju nog tyvärr inte väl den starta bolaget, det är market kan jag plingera dem ungefär på 400 miljoner, och till igen om inte jag misminner mig. Då finns det spännande möjligheter att växa? Ja, i buss, det tycker vi i alla fall, genom att ta bivakad bolaget nu ett tag. Historisk kontext är lite brokig resa ändå, men jag tycker att de senaste fyra kvartalen, eller kanske till och med fler, men senaste fyra kvartalen har vi verkligen visat tillväxt kvartalet till kvartalet till kvartal. De har betledning, de har liksom omstrukturerat bolaget något, så det börjar verkligen se ut som att de är på rätt väg. Historiskt har vi omstimmat ingen lägat kring 280 miljoner, 24 och 25 då. Marginalmässigt bryt de marginalerna härbolaget, de inga ska höga på åter nya procent, så det är ju inte låga nivåer alls. Däremot har ju lönsamheten varit lite mer våla till, så man ska tänka på EBT-amerginalsåren ungefär, kanske 10-23 sen har de droppat lite ner 27-24-25, sen har man gjort om strukturering och då har du gått bättre så att nu tror vi att de är på väg tillbaka till lönsamma nivåer. EBT ettbolaget har några finansiella mål, varannan att på lönsamhet, här kommer vi prata mer med fransom, men de har ju en inom tre år en EBT-marginal på 20 procent som målsättning. Du säger att den har flyttor rätt liten. Hur vad tror vi kring den? Ja, precis så att om man ska bara smera igen de här målen, då är innebär jag att på kort sikt är de tre år i BTA över 20 procent, på lönsikter, BTA-amerginal över 30 procent, och så siktar de ju på en till årlig tillväxt på 20-30 procent. Det har inte direkt sett till siffrorna ännu. Däremot är det som gör käset attraktivt är det nu som vi börjar se de här signalerna, framför allt av de här viktigaste md-segmentet som kommer kunna stödja de här målen både på marginal och på topplönnivå. Vad är md-segmentet? MDI de här md-industrin. MDI, en jävla tack, medical device industry, snyggt. Däremot tänkte bara säga att Q2 var återigen ett annat exempel av ett omsättningväxte, 27 procent, year of year, med ordengångsom också växer och i BTA vändes till positiv siffror igen då. Så det ser ut som att det ska. Lite medvind. Ja. Vad är det tycker du som gör mentis till ett intressant aktier? Käs är det något som marknaden tenderar och missar? Ja, men jag trodde väldigt många kallar på den här historiken när man har varit en relativt högt för dira bolag som har kanske inte att direkter levererat på förväntningarna när det gäller både på topplön eller bensamhetsutveckling. Däremot så. efter de här par svagare år man ska bedändelsa och de har ju liksom ändå fått tillbaka lite vinder i vingarna och framför allt inom det här md-segmentet. Och samtidigt så har de ju gjort den omstrukturering, en deras organisation är ju mycket mer effektiv nu och framför allt kostnadseffektiv. De växer omsättningen, de växer lönsamheter växer ordringången är stark och då är det här väldigt intressant på kombination med deras höga brutto-marginal i 8-9 procent. Så det behåller man ungefär när man kostnadsbaser finns du i potential till att växa rätt mycket på lönsamheten också. Är det verkligen väldigt impörerna med så hög brutto-marginal om vi bara ska belysa riskerna också i det här caseet. Hur ser du på konkurrens situationen? Kan du nändan lite handla dem mer om teknisk utveckling eller vad ser du som risker som är värde och har med sig när man kollar bra bolaget? Ja, men det man ska prata lite med med till kriskenen, väldigt många av dem är ju liksom det rör sig om hela marknaden i stort sett. Men till exempel universitet skjockhus och så var kommer jag hända med budgetar, kommer universitet skjockhus har rodat betalar in för de här simulieringslösningen. Det gäller liksom till exempel både mentisk och surgical science. Sen finns det ju största risken just för mentisk är ju dock fortsatt projekt och ordervolotelitet. De är ju haft lite på något till inkäning förut. Nu ser det ut som att det normaliseras i ett tag och växer samtidigt, men det kan ju fortfarande hända att få tal större projekt kan ju liksom göra väldigt mycket skillnad från ett kapital till ett annat. Så då påverkar det såklart även marginaler och så och så flöde. Så konjunkt på en centrationen, en annan ris som kanske kan vara liksom vara bra och bemöta. Däremot återigen även där, på med texikamentet de har ju väldigt många stora globala med till kunder. Så det här pratar inte vi om en enstaka kund som står för 70 procent av indexerna så är det absolut inte utan det här kommer. Nu är vi nyss kommer från en mycket bredare vass och såklart som precis med alla andra bolag som handlar just det. Jag alltid var lite kurs risk. Allt är låt ju väldigt spännande och vi tendumerar risken som man ska mästera i kriset men framåt tillväxten i kriset. Det har varit lite bråkigt när vi kodade baks, men de växer nu och vi brukar framåt vara tillväxten kommer från och hur ska den fortsätta? Nu men precis då med texikamentet är ju absolut viktigast att drivkapt inför den här tillväxten att fortsätta och då är det en av de här utvecklingsprojekten hos globala med till kunder. Så det är enkelt sagt så att det blir fler och fler och mer komplexa ingrepp som görs på patienter. Det betyder att istället för återigen de här stora operationen gör man fler och fler saker om att bara gå in via käll. Och ju så de här på sådana är desto mer träning behöver läkare och timet och desto mer kanske träning behöver demonstrationstimen på de här teknologen när de säljer sina devices och så vidare. Övning i affärlighet. Exakt så. Jag grafiskt sett så ger det ju, ja det är så klart du sa som en viktigaste tillväxtdivaren. Och vem är det som äger elementis? Ägenbilden är ju det här finns ganska kortsvar. Ägenbilden är väldigt kosodre. Det är en familj med den Howell och associer som äger ungefär lite under 70 % av bolaget. Så det ger ju en väldigt tydlig och strategiskt väldigt viktig huvud ägare. Men där är mot så ledare till att det är ganska begränsat free float och relativt begränsat eller låg aktier i likviditet. Och för kanske mindre visste jag så kan det här vara fulltant i enbart men för lite större institutionella visste jag så kan det ha vara en utmaning. Och hur värderas mentis? Ja vad gäller värdering så tycker vi att mentis är så fortfarande väldigt intressant att attraktivt ut. Axen hallas ju kring gånger 12 nästa 12 månader är vi i butier och det här är ju då ungefär 6-6 till 18 % under. Att alltså rabatt till våra nordiska mentekpears som jag har valt ut och kallar man då på bolagets egna historik så ger den här värdering också när de absolut lägsten i vårna för de senaste 3 åren. Samtidigt så återigen det finns ju en anlinner till att marknaden idag kräver lite mer bevis. Bolaget har ju haft lite bråkig historik och det har vi berörter den här podden idag och de kanske inte alltid levererat fullt ut på de förväntningar som har byggt upp. Men vår syn på case är att det är nu en lite transformationsfas. De senaste fyra kvartalen har ju seksiktighet fler och fler kvitton. Bolaget växer, vägsamheten rör sig åt rätt håll, tycker vi. Och bredare MD-momentum och fortsatt banad väg mot samma mål så tycker vi att det här kan bli väldigt intressant framöver. Vi har ett i vår värdering så har vi ett värdering inte valt på 25 till 35 kronor som jag nämnde i början. Och att redan mer värderingen på ment i så tycker jag att den här viktiga bransklappen den ligger kvar då. Det bygger ju det här värderingspotentialen som vi har pratat om ganska mycket här, det bygger ju på att bolaget måste fortsatta leverera. Så det här med "medical device" momentet behöver hålla i sig de här större ordnerna som vi har sett lite under året de måste omsättas en ny plan och marginalbilden behöver också fortsätta förbättras. Perfekt, då har vi en grund att stå på och sen så tackar vi så mycket markus för att det varit ner och tagit oss genom den första delen. Och så släpper vi dig och så bjuder vi in frans i studion. Tack så mycket! Tack! Hej och välkomna till analys på den. Vi är bak i en studie här med fransvänke "se of mentis". Välkommen! Tack för att du har med mig här i studion. För någon av dig som är nu till mentis, kanske vi kan starta med lite om du. Kan du berätta dig på dig, om du är mentis och hur du har gjort det i dag. Ja, absolut. Så ja, fransvänker. Och jag har sen haft en och ena år, den projde "se of mentis". En komponier, Stockmarket Listed Company, i en del av medie. Därför är det en del av medie. Det är en del av medie. but in order to help them with the introduction of medical devices. And we provide the training and education programs for these companies to introduce devices in a safe and effective manner. And so once we do that, so we are linked towards new product introductions, once we have done that and introduced them effectively, of course, we can also provide those training and education solutions towards hospitals ourselves. The majority of our business is working with those math tech companies, but of course, we also provided a distributed towards hospitals ourselves in order to provide education and training towards fellows, but also a technician's nurses in order to teach them how to do a certain intervention or a certain procedure in a hospital. - What is it actually that you're simulating? What is it that when the doctor is using your products to end user, what is it that they are learning? - It is linked towards how to do a clinical procedure. And maybe I should explain also in what kind of industry you're operating, because what is it? Maybe a decade ago, the majority of the procedures, if you had to go for a heart attack or if you have to be treated for, I don't know, cancer, usually what they did is open surgery towards the patients. And so this is quite invasive. First of all, for the hospital staff, but also for the patient and the recovery times are quite long, especially because of the open wounds that you effectively create. So a lot of these procedures are transitioning to what we call minimally invasive interventions. And that is simply that doctors are trying to reach certain area in the body by small incisions in the blood veins, in the arteries. And they go with long tubes towards certain areas and they are trying to treat them those clinical areas for the patients. Usually the outcomes are the same, but the recovery times are much faster. And of course, that is also data for the patients, but also lower cost for society in general. So it is all focused on those minimally invasive interventions where patients recover more quicker from their procedure. And that is where we help with training and education solutions for those doctors, but also the device companies in order to help them to do such procedures in a safe and effective manner. Now minimally invasive interventions are growing significantly, so this is really a field that is almost like double digit growth, not only the number of clinical areas that are being treated, but also the interventions in itself. And so we are in a fantastic position as a company to help those meta-companies, but also hospitals in order to provide a certain level of doing an intervention for patients. And that is what we provide. So we simulate the environment, how you do a procedure. Now in the past, as a doctor or as a nurse, if you want to call trains, do you usually, you have to do this either on an animal or you have to do it on a cadaver, so that's the patient. So in that regard, now we can do it in a virtual environment. So where you do it simply with screens and you completely create almost like a video game, and of course that's not the right word, but you can completely simulate the environment digitally. And therefore you can mistakes multiple times and you can rehearse it over and over again. So this allows in order to do it more frequently, but also to do it at significantly lower cost. And also you can transport it to any location that you want to experience your programs. And then you can effectively train and educate those physicians. - I had a question and I wrote that in red and I marked it as this is a stupid question, but I still think it's important that you've been on the topic because I wrote, "Why is it so much better to have this simulation instead of just learning by doing?" But you kind of covered it, it must feel much nicer for the patient. - Yes, of course you always want to be treated by physicians and staff who really has done it multiple times, but also has been trained towards a certain standard in order to effectively do a procedure safe and effective. But yeah, so the training usually happens as I stated on cadavers or they happen to sit on animals and this way it is a much more sustainable way of doing it. So what we create is we mimic the entire procedure from the beginning to the end. And so we show the X-ray screens, we show the ultrasounds that are being generated. We allow for the manipulation of the catheters and the wires. And so we also have a device that provides haptic feedback. So you actually feel what you're doing towards the procedure and that allows you to go from beginning to the end of a procedure and in certain instances, also we can also generate complications to it. So we can give a little bit of a curve towards physicians from a, if certain things do not go as intended, what then do you need to do? And what are the steps that you need to take in order to get to a safe recovery and a safe intervention for such a patient? So that is what we provide. And we do this for multiple areas. So we do this, we are very good at the nervous side. So for example, a stroke. So if you have a plot in the brain and the blood flow is not happening to certain areas in the brain, what they do is what they call mechanical trombectomy, so they go into the brain with a wire and they try to capture the plot and pull it out. Now, that is a procedure that we can simulate completely. We can do it also for the heart. And so for a pacemaker in plants, or you could do it for an ablation if you have an arrhythmia in the heart. So that's where also we have, we can simulate those procedures as also heart attacks. We can do it for the arctic, so that is the big artery which goes from the heart all the way down towards the legs, but also cancer treatments we can do. So many fields that we cover, and that is also the specialty of mentis, what we provide, that we provide high realism simulations in multiple areas where we not only simulate the anatomy, but also how devices behave in the body, how catatos behave to get an ultra-very good training experience and make sure that the doctors can do a procedure safe and effective. Can you talk a little bit about the products? So obviously it's very important that you try to simulate as realistic as possible, and I can imagine like training on an animal must be very different from a human body. What is the product that you're selling? And how do you, it's both software and hardware. We learned from Maria, but what is it actually? No, it's a very good question. So what we have is a standardized hardware that allows to simulate the catatos and wires in a body. And so there is, yeah, it's a device. It's almost like, what is it? Three feet long, so a meter. And so that allows to incorporate certain wires and tubes. And it's, there's control in it that can give you haptic feedback. So it basically simulates the way how wires and also tubes behave in a body. So, but that is standard. And what we do then is with the software, we create programs or certain procedures for meta-companies in order to create a dedicated simulation for that particular device. So for example, if there is a company, a large, what is it, a valve company who's introducing a new heart valve, it could either be an orotic valve or it could be a, this is a, no, a mitral valve or whatever. We create a software, we simulate the environment, how you need to do such a procedure. And then, yeah, we can upload that software on our device and show it on monitors how you do such a procedure. So what we provide Eda is a few things. So first of all, we provide a project to the meta-companies in order to simulate the procedure. And that's usually almost like a consulting project or an engineer project where we sit down with the meta-companies from what is now so special that we need to educate and train the physician. So we go through the entire procedure. We create a software linked with it. Once we have that available, we start rolling it out for that meta-companie and we provide not only the heart, but also the software modules, so that is the second effectively business that we then provide. As then also usually this stays what is at 5 to 7 years in the market and we do the maintenance services also on these hardware requirements. So that is also linked towards our business model, what do we provide? It's first of all creating that software, software environment and the software to simulate a procedure. It's then the hardware with the software modules, that is still the second piece and we can start distributing that globally. Usually a meta company introduces those products first in one country and then in another country and in another country so also we jump alone with the rollout and then finally we do also the maintenance aspects along the way. So that is also our business model and if we do that properly and of course that's our sole objective to make a customer really happy and satisfied then usually you go towards the next business unit and they say hey now you have done this valve, can you do it? I don't know for a heart failure patient or can you do it for a cornea and the intervention? So there's always additional business once you do it properly and you really take care of that customer. Is it like for someone who's never been in surgery? Is it like for the end user so that the doctor once they learned how to use your devices it's like they can figure most of the surgeries out or is it like really difficult cases as well because we heard Maria talking about the digital twin and those kind of thing it must be. It feels very difficult, it feels like a one size does not fit all. No, that's correct so there are multiple ways to do it. First of all if Metac introduces a new device they want to make sure that every doctor can do that procedure safe and effectively and that is what they are training those doctors towards and we have the equipment and the simulation in order to do that properly but of course you also have cases where when the doctor is already experienced basically he hasn't done many procedures he could actually take our equipment and do a few practice runs also towards the patients now. We have what we call in the its fastener twin as Maria also indicated for a neuro procedure and we have the ability to upload also a patient anatomy, a complex anatomy and have the ability to practice then such a difficult case in order to make sure that doctors are really proficient towards a certain level in order to do such a procedure. So we do that but also we do training for the entire staff so we're looking at that now as well that that we provide everybody what we call 3D equipment and have the ability to also look with the one intervention list and see how such a procedure is being operated upon and executed once for that you train not only the physician in doing the procedure but also the staff around them in order to understand what is happening as such a procedure and this is all part of our training and education proposition and that really makes us grow and over the last years of the last year we really got the business back to growth and you also see that it's really resonating with our doctors and meta companies that first of all we have a very high realism so we are simply we mimic reality in a very good way and so that's what the companies really like from us as also we are very supportive and flexible in order to create those programs that they actually need and so that is really the key proposition that makes us win the market and that's where we are to number one year old so yeah and when we talk a lot about the medical simulations and so on we usually talk and I know we talked about with you Frans as well it's becoming more of a need to have or than nice to have I mean back in the days it was I mean it was a bonus if you worked at a big hospital and you had those simulation labs that you could use but now it's becoming more of a need to have as I mentioned but that also creates a question are there any other companies doing the same thing because what you're doing is is working well your customers like your product and the question number one are there any others doing the same thing and question number two is why would these large medical device companies that you've mentioned for instance Abbott and metronik what hinders them from developing this kind of technology themselves for instance that's it's a great question so first of all yes there are there is a few other companies as well who who who provide such solutions so there is like three companies in this this this effectively this space it's an oligopoly where two players have the dominant share in that sense or more than 80 percent so so we see it as we are clearly the number one in the interventional space and so also that makes mentis unique is that we're fully focused on image-guided therapy so on the minimally invasive interventions alone all the other companies they also have site businesses which simulation of open surgery are other things that they're trying to to train as well and that makes mentis unique but also that makes mentis a dessert company for meta companies not only the ones you mentioned but also other actually it's a meta companies we work with we always say we work with 27 others it's a top 30 meta companies all of them and so in that regard it really sets us apart that that we are unique when it comes towards interventional realism and so we define realism is how a device behaves in the body how a wire feels if you put it through an artery it is how the anatomy looks like it is how the case is being simulated along the way that is the highest level of realism that we see from from other companies the second piece is where we are unique is that we listen very carefully and that's also something very near and dear to my heart the customer is right that is it and we need to listen to what they provide of what they want to to to what they need and we need to be able to help them in order to provide that ultimate solution and if you do that well so first of all a good technical product and a good clinical solution plus the fact that you are easy to work with and listen to what customers need that is a great proposition in order to get repeat business and that's why we're very focused on so what we see is that we're winning in the space we are going also to more clinical areas as we call it so yeah we are well rounded offering that we have now and what you see as well is that we are established in the space as we call it of course we have been in the market for 27 years but you see now is that we're being recognized as a company who can do all the clinical areas in a very good manner and therefore we have a broad base of customers our projects are coming now really from a broad base of meta companies and that is good for everybody so it's good for experience but it's also for more continuous revenue streams to come over the next quarters you talked a little bit about it earlier but is it would you say that most of the growth will come from upselling or cross selling on your current customer base is it is it very easy to add on new systems for a for a current customer or do you need more devices more hardware yeah it's so so maybe the one step in and I'll answer you I just hit your question to it so our growth is linked towards the number of new devices that are being introduced into the market so the more devices are being launched by meta companies either the existing ones but also the open coming meta companies out of the east in the China you name it that helps us because we can provide to Australian education solutions and what you see is first of all that there is a wider area of companies coming but also the companies are going faster to markets due to the development cycles are speeding up and that's probably due to artificial intelligence and and and introduction mechanisms and so that helps us so that markets effectively growth for us and so we have a larger pool of customers that we can satisfy and work with as also if you provide a good solution for one division in a company they have done the hardware and that hardware can be reused also towards other divisions if you upload simply other modules and other applications to it so it is once you are working with the customer you can grow them further and go along that way yeah and now we've talked a lot about the large pool of customers and growth I mean you've been growing for four quarters straight which we've talked about previously as well but that hasn't always been the story so you're a bit on the transformation journey you mentioned that as well can you just characterize a little bit about what change demand is in the past year and a half or a year and because the company's been in business for 27 years but now it's it looks quite different to me that did for a couple of years ago yeah so thank you Maria it was to the work We, when I came in, the company was a little bit stagnant over the last, what is it, one to two years at a time. So what we-- what the company focused on a few acquisitions also in order to move more into the interventional space and into the procedure. So not only being part of education and training, but also go towards the procedure and provide help in order to practice for a complex intervention doing that. Absolutely the right strategy. But also, what we saw is that those acquisitions were not fully integrated into the organization. So when I came in, is that what I saw is, first of all, somewhat of a fragmented team in multiple locations and acquisitions that were not fully integrated. We were investing in areas that would provide indeed a return, but probably in a later stage. And so what I did immediately, when I came in, is finished the integrations of the acquisitions. And that's also based on my experience working on my previous life. So that is simply what I just said, yeah, that's in the DNA when you start it, you need to finish it. So we also did that. So we closed a site, that is it, we consolidated efforts from R&D specifically for physical simulation in Denver. What we did is we reduced the staff quite significantly. So that is unfortunate, but it had to be done. We took 20% out of the organization, out of Mendes, in order to also preserve effectively the gas position that we had. We did a rights issue. So we also went to our shareholders in order to get additional funds in order to run the company, and then effectively, which also changed the strategy last year at that time. And so we said, hey, our growth opportunities are dearly metac. It is also the hospital space, but supported by metac. So making sure that we create that link, as also that we are going to create a program towards the robotic procedures, because that is really an emerging field also that is happening in interventional space. Procedures are not only done by the physicians, but in the future will also be done with assisted devices in order to help them to do such interventions. And so the changes in basically finishing the integrations, it is reducing the human capital in the organization, getting money, changing the strategy. That's what we executed. And also, yeah, we were, also, I would say lucky, had to sit at the market, also got significantly, basically, went better again. So we got a dual sort, so it's a dual sort, where the cost we had at a lower level. And now we see the growth coming. And yeah, as you state, Maria, we already had four consecutive quarters of significant growth. And I mean, what is it in order intake? Probably in the 30 plus range. In revenue, we're in the 20 plus range. So in that regard, yeah, it's paying off well. And that also means that the bottom line, we're now close to break even from an EBITA level of, sorry, EBIT level, EBITIs are very positive. And so that could even mean that we, yeah, that's that that bowed well for the future. So it's a turnaround story, and we're generating growth. But there are so many changes currently in the market when it comes to artificial intelligence. If it comes towards robotics, if it comes towards new device introductions, that we need to make sure that we continue to capture those. So that we continue that growth, or even can grow even faster along the way. And how do you make sure that you capture those? It's a very easy question. But do you have a lot of research and development yourself? How do you make sure that you maintain your unique position in the market? Yeah, it's, it's a multiple areas. And of course, that's the tricky piece now. Because the world is really changing fast. And so how we developed software a year ago is completely different. How we developed software now. And it will be in a year from now, again, much different. That's also the changes team. So it is you need to be agile. And so that is also for our team. And our management team, but the entire team is that we need to look outside, talk to customers. So first of all, what they need and what they see as the future growth areas that we capture those. But secondarily, also making sure that we look at new opportunities, business development opportunities internally, to become faster. So what you see, and I'll take this as an example, how AI, and especially how we develop software, that is now completely ingrained into our way of working at certain areas. For example, creating prototypes. What used to take, I don't know, three months a year ago, now effectively takes a few hours or half a day. And what's much used to take in order to convert software could take what is it maybe a half a year is now done in a day. So it requires complete changes how we work. So much more work on the front end, on defining the products, as also making sure how we test our products and how we bring them towards our customers. And so what you see is that we simply can do more with the same amount of people. And that's also the growth that we're seeing. So with our project management organization, is that we simply see almost a 50% growth in that area and output alone this year in order to drive projects for our customers. So your question is how do we see this? It is externally to be very close to our customers that we know what's going on and what the future trends are that we need to make sure that we capture. But it is also looking internally at the technology trends the chemical trends to make sure that we innovate also internally in our organization and that we capture that growth going forward. And yeah, it's being agile. So don't be stuck in your own ways. Because also, yeah, we need to manage, of course, a lot of people in our organization. But we also need to start managing our basically agents. And so it is a combination of different ways of working to execute on the growth that we need. So yeah, it's a fun time to be in, but you need to be on the toes and show the agility to being there. It feels like this customer relationship is very important and also becomes a competitive advantage when you can stay close to the market. That's correct. And so being a partner and so being recognized also as a partner that can help them not only with training and education solutions for math tech in order to introduce a product, but also potentially can help them in order to drive adoption towards the next layer of physicians and do more of those device procedures. So it is that combination of introductions. It is adoption and in the future potentially also help them with robotic procedures in order to automate or make procedures even more scalable for physicians to do and for hospitals to do. We have learned from Maria before that you have two business areas, health care systems and medical device industry. Is there a product mix change to this growth? Is there a specific focus area or is the growth going to come from this mega trends and across the board or where are you putting your focus? Now what you see is that the medical device industry side is growing the most. Maybe I should explain first what they are. Thank you. NDI, what we call a medical device industry, are the meta companies that approach us in order to provide training and education solutions for introducing new products. This is almost 83 to 85% of our revenues that we provide. The hospital markets, they also are training and education solutions in order to create proficiency or making sure that their staff, fellows, staff, the visit tech nurses are able to execute on the procedure safely effectively. Also, that is an area very important to execute all. But what you see is simply that the squeeze and profitability of hospitals, especially in the second piece of the market, is quite profound. And so the margins that hospitals operate on are low. I'd say that's usually a few percent. And especially now also with the big, beautiful bill that was introduced last year in the US, you see that hospitals also have less budgets or less money to spend on certain areas, and especially if training and education is not immediately a need but a nice to have in order to create proficiency. But not part of a need program in order to certify which our products are not. Then usually it is difficult to make sure that we actually get funded in that regard. So what you see is that hospitals are not growing as fast with their training and education as the Medtech companies are. So that means what we're trying to do now is focus on Medtech companies, but see whether we can also help with training and education solutions in order to provide it into hospitals in order to help them with proficiency, but also making sure that procedures are done more consistently and more safe and effectively done by the Medtech side. And that is what we're looking at. Yeah, and now we've thank your friends. We've talked a little bit about Mantis the past, what you're doing now. I was thinking it might be very interesting for our listeners to peek into the future. And two big topics there. First of all, do you have any targets? How fast do you want to grow? Do you have any an ideal picture of that growth coming going forward? Yeah, so so there are growth that said that we want to achieve is first of all 20% consistently up to 30%. So that is what we drive. Those are mid-time growth basically ambitions and are EBITDA levels or earnings before income tax depreciation and amortization in the range of 20% and then longer term 30. And those those targets are achievable, although we have still set this also in the past and not always met them, but now with the new growth that we currently see as also with the current organization in place. Yeah, we see that this could become in reach, especially if we drive the growth in the current consistent way forward. And the real levers in order to achieve that is revenue growth. So so so that will drive the EBITDA margins as also be hawkish on the cost so that we actually leverage the growth into the bottom line profitability. And so those mid-term targets what we call around two years are feasible in order to achieve. And that's also what we have set to the market to obtain. So what do we want to be in the future? Maria, that's also what you asked is of course to be that growth and profitable company going forward. That's that's first and foremost, but a company that is being recognized by our customers that helps them in order to introduce metric procedures and not only the devices, it is from of their procedures, but also the more automation that comes along with it. So the robotics procedures that will be compiled of it, that we are an integral part in assisting those companies to automate such a procedure. And that's what I would like to be as mentors. So so an agile company that is being recognized for the excellent service that we provide towards metric and training and education solutions in order to to drive to drive growth further. And what do you think could be the potential big risks on that journey? It is, of course, that we always look at that. That first of all, the market is changing and the technologies are changing so fast. What keeps me up at night is first of all that we're overlooking certain technology trends or that we're overlooking certain areas that could overtake us that we haven't anticipated. And of course, we're continuously scouting and looking at that. But that is what keeps me up at night. Also, the entry barriers are sometimes lowered because of new technologies with AI that are coming. So you also get competition from different angles that you haven't anticipated before. So that means that we need to remain agile, but also look at different, you know, we call that control points, but access towards certain technologies or clinical data or certain customers in order to make sure that we remain ahead in this, in this infrastructure of solutions that we provide. The other piece that, of course, that you always need to look for, it is a very uncertain macroeconomical environment, especially geopolitically. And so that also has impact at a certain point in access to markets, but also could have an impact on yeah, economical growth rates or GDP growth rates. And yeah, that's simply we need to watch those. And we need to just make sure that that that we grow, it is with the market or above the market, but that at a certain point that is certain things are not going away, that we need to change our cost structure in order to make sure that that that we stay profitable. So yeah, those are the things that keep me up at night. It's the technology side. It is the new entrance. It is, what is it? It is also the macroeconomical climate. Yeah, it's simply hawkish on customer service. So making sure sometimes, of course, you always have a customer who is not fully satisfied, that always happens, but it is the way how you deal with that, to make sure that you that you change it and for them in order to make sure that you solve it and that you are always there for the customer puts their trust in the in US company. And I'm standing for that. My team is standing also for that. Yeah, some of those things you mentioned, there's also those things that keep me as a metric analyst up at night as well, especially the macroeconomical. But as a mantis case, what do you you talk a lot to your customers, you talk a lot to investors and so on? What would you say is the most most misunderstood point to the mantis story right now? It's probably two things, Maria. It is. So of course, we are operating in a complex environment. So it is in order to explain what we do in a very simple manner is not easy and it's not easy understood. And that is also on me to explain that is it in a better way. But what we provide is training and education solutions for meta companies to help them introduce new procedures. That's simply what we do. And we provide software solution and hardware solution in order to help those companies with it. So the more introductions those companies do, the better we do. Very simple, that's that's our business. So that is not always fully understood and we haven't explained that in the right manner. I state that very clearly. The second piece is that also that the growth and the turnaround that we are currently doing and that is the question is the sustainable. And that is probably what a lot of customers offer investors in mantis are also looking from yeah, at least it's four quarters of growth. At least it is going to sustain. Now and that's that's that's on us in order to to to first of all convince and that's why I'm standing here as well. But also to show that we can do this and to make sure that we are agile and consistent in order to drive these growth. And yeah, that's that's all me that's on my team that's all my entire organization to execute on. But I could tell you yeah, we are currently growing four quarters in a row. We're almost at the end of the quarter. I don't give predictions how we're doing well. But we also said that the funnel of projects is strong. That's also what we said about the NFQ 2. So there should be no reason in order to simply continue to execute. And for me, this stay agile. If things are sometimes a little bit more difficult, take action. That's making sure that's that we remain a healthy company going forward. So the most misunderstood cases is a phones. What is it now that mentors is doing? But also the second piece is a mentorship adhesive. What is it? Can they continue to grow at a 20 to 30? And when do we get finally get a 20% profitability? And that's that's what we're working towards. And if we could leave the listeners with one thing that we feel like they need to understand or remember from this conversation, what do you want to send us off with? That we have a fantastic company here in Gothenburg, which is really a multi-national when it comes towards operating globally with a fantastic team of engineers, but marketers and people in place who provide solutions for the largest companies like the largest metric companies in order to help them with training and education solutions. And I'm really proud of this team servicing those customers so well in helping to treat patients in a better way. Yeah, that's that's that's simply fantastic to see. We enable care for many patients to come and we do that via the metric side. So what is it that's that I want people to take away is that we have a healthy, a fantastic, a proud company here in Gothenburg that provides solutions for a metric in order to help patients in order to help have a better life. And yeah, that's that's that's what I want people to know. And that's what really that's keeps me going and ever you going to work every day in a proud manner. That's so nice. Everyone here in the studio and fans, everyone just with a big ends with a big smile on our faces. Very good. No, but this is it's beautiful company I'm really proud for such a metric company here in en god förmärkt, som har såklart en global impact i den mål. Tack så mycket för att ha så mycket för att tacka oss. Fantastiskt. Tack för att ha mig. Tack så mycket. Denna podcast är utgiven av DNB-kanegi Investment Bank AB. Och jag har sett att marknadsföra bankens tjänstor. DNB-kanegi kan i denna podcast hänvisa till uppdragsanalys som är producerad av DNB-kanegi. 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