Avoiding Firefighter Syndrome with Guest Darrin Peppard

Welcome to Middle School Walking Talk, a podcast series offering heart, hope and health to members of our middle school communities. Hosts Phil's Vaggle and Jessica McGuire talk all things self-care, student well-being, school culture, and more. Middle School Walking Talk is designed to support the concepts found in the successful middle school, this we believe, and is a production of the association for middle-level education. To learn more, visit AMLE.org. To this episode, avoiding firefighters syndrome with guest Darren Peppard. Welcome back to the Middle School Walking Talk podcast. This is Jessica McGuire, and I'm joined by my co-host, Phil's Vaggle. And today we have the pleasure of studying with Darren Peppard. Darren, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yeah, of course. So I identified as a recovering high school principal. I was in public education now, honestly, for 26 years, but I started as a middle school teacher. I was a middle school science teacher. I never thought I was going to be working at the middle school level. Honestly, when I was envisioning, you know, going through my undergraduate program, it was, I wanted to be a high school science teacher. I wanted to be a head basketball coach, you know, that's the, like, my thing. And the first and best offer that I got was actually to take a middle school position. I taught at the middle school level for five years, and I absolutely loved. When you started your career? I started my career in Kingman, Arizona. At Kingman, at that time, it was Kingman, Junior High. It's now known as Kingmanville School. That's where it all started. And then I ran the gamut through my career. I was a high school assistant principal, high school principal, and then ultimately a superintendent. And now I work with schools and leaders all over the country, just helping leaders to really get clear to really be intentional and to just walk on their purpose and find some joy at their job. So I'm a leadership coach, I'm a speaker and traveler, the road to awesome. And you currently live in Wyoming. I do not have a way. No, but I am from Wyoming. I will always be a Wyoming kid at heart, but I actually live in Omaha, Nebraska now. Okay. You've really been around the country. I have. Yeah. And it's not uncommon for us to hear when we ask guest's back story that they landed in middle school just by happenstance. Not intentionally, except for when they got there, they loved it and it was their jam. Yeah, it's interesting. I've had that conversation with a lot of people. And so many people think, you know, oh boy, middle school, I just don't know. And once you have the opportunity to experience it, I mean, I know it's not everybody's cup of tea. But wow, middle school kids, there's just this magic combination of they still want to be teacher pleasers, but they also want to be the big kids. And they will. And if they know that you genuinely see them and value them and you know, lean into them. And they'll run through a brick wall for you. I love middle school kids. I really did. Yeah, huge hearts. And they're pretty funny. They are all my goodness. They do things that, yeah, stories that you can't make up. No, not not even close. Things you couldn't even dream up. Right. Yeah. I love that you have your focuses on leadership. And one of the things I was thinking about as you were talking about your career trajectory, especially since you've been doing this so long is how much education has changed, how much the world has changed. How many stressors have entered into the educational system? Has your work changed? That's the work you needed to do with leaders changed as a result. And if so, what are you observing? Yeah, that's a big question. Because there is so much that has changed over time. I mean, obviously we have the big shock to our system with with COVID a few years ago. And how that really has shifted so many different pieces. And you know, I remember when we were going through that, I was a superintendent at the time and telling my my principles and assistant principles in the district, you know, we've always been able to when teachers would say, you know, you don't understand what it's like to be in the classroom. Yeah. Yeah, we do. We've been there post pandemic. That's not true anymore. I don't know what it's like to be a classroom teacher post pandemic. And I think that's true for for any school leader. It's also as adults, we don't know what it's like to be a student post pandemic. It's just genuinely so different. So just that mindset piece alone, I think is really, really big. The other piece, we have a different generation, especially our younger teachers that are coming in, that they set boundaries a little bit differently. And I know that certainly some leaders struggle with that. You know, when when I first started as a classroom teacher, it was like a badge of honor that I was beaten to principal school. I mean, I knew what she drove. I knew where she parked. And I wanted to make sure I was the first one there. And more and more and more, we're seeing this generation. And it's not a knock on this generation at all. In fact, it's honestly something I think kudos to this generation. Yeah, it is very healthy. They're not trying to beat the principal into the parking lot. And they're not trying to stay until seven or eight or ten o'clock at night to prove like they they have figured out that you don't have to work harder, but you just have to simply work smarter. And I think for the rest of us, we're trying to catch up to that. I think in so many ways, we talk so much about the work-life balance, which I don't really care for that race because there's no such thing as a balance. As a building principal, right? It abs and flows. There are certain times of the year where it's going to be a lot and other times where it's not quite as much. But I think that's one of the big challenges that I see. We hear the kids are different, and while I know I just said kids' post-pandemic are a little bit different, I think kids are still kids. I think some of how we have to approach them, how we have to engage them, and how we allow them to utilize their voice to share what they know, what they're learning, what they're interested in, probably has shifted a little bit. So that's probably a challenge that not only do our classroom teachers struggle with, but that our school leaders struggle with because it's ultimately up to them to help the teachers figure this out. So what advice have you been giving to school leaders? How are you supporting them through this shift? Yeah, one of the biggest things I have been working on with the school leaders that I'm supporting is really being crystal clear about what it is that they expect, about what it is not only of their staff or of their students, but of themselves too. And then also be really, really clear about what's genuinely important. And where do they see their school, that compelling vision that we have for our school, and I'm not talking about the vision that we put on the wall or alongside our mission with our strategic plan. Those things are important, but just as the building principal, where do you see your school in two years? And really being intentional about talking about that frequently, about, you know, living to that. The second piece is really listening. I mean, I think principals have to listen even more now than they used to. Principles used to be managers. They're not, well, they are. They still have to be managers, but there's so much more to that instructional leadership side that is really leaning and listening to your teachers. And, you know, I'm a huge Ted Lasso fan. I don't like you guys, but I love Ted Lasso. And I think I would argue it's probably the best scene of a television show in history. The dark scene, absolutely. Yes, still with the bright where I'm going. And, oh my gosh, I love that scene so much. But just simply be curious, not judgmental. And that's something that I've been telling leaders consistently. When you go in the classroom, just be curious, you know, really think of what are good questions I can ask the teacher. What are good questions I can ask the students as opposed to what's something I can tell the teacher they need to get better at? Certainly, we probably have some teachers that probably need that, but most of our teachers are very best teachers. The number one thing they need is somebody to just ask them good questions. They're smart people. They know what they're doing. In most cases, our great teachers are probably better than the principal ever was as a teacher. I know that's true of me. I was a good teacher, but holy cow, I had some teachers who were so much better than I was. And the best thing I could do for them is just ask, tell me a little more about that strategy that you utilize there. Did you feel like your students got where they needed to be? You know, what were some things you were experiencing during the lesson? Just whatever the question might be, it opens that dialogue for them. And I think that's what school leaders right now really need to be doing. It's just opening dialogue and listening not only to the teachers, but also listening to their students. You have to be very intentional as a leader to do that, to go with an open mind and curiosity without judging or even no, without questioning to lead them to where you want them to be, right? So some open or intentional open-ended questions that get them to think about their practice is what has to happen, I think. What do principals tell you you're struggling with or that they need? What are you hearing anything? Oh, yeah, definitely. First and foremost, I think even the most experienced principals struggle with just how do I move out of firefighter world and into leadership world? I know I need to be in the classroom. I know I need to be in with my teachers. I have that idea in mind. And then I get to work and my day goes off the rails. Right. How do I manage what's the worst thing about that role I think is that no day is very predictable, which is great, and it's also sometimes horrible. It's madmaning, right? Yeah, because you have those days where you know, you can have your day planned out and all it takes is one thing. And what I share with principals frequently is don't always make somebody else's crisis, your crisis. We actually, as we're recording this here at the conference, I did a session yesterday and talked about being very intentional with your time and being really clear about what matters to you. And importantly, not allowing those time bandits to steal your time, because if you allow them to, they will. And what happens, especially early career leaders, is we throw on this on the cake. We think we have to be the superhero, right? We've got to answer everybody's questions. We've got to solve everybody's problems and we're taught when we go through master's programs about servant leadership, which is beautiful. And probably everybody who's ever interviewed for a principal position talks about wanting to be a servant leader. And the problem is we misinterpret what that means. Being a servant leader doesn't mean you do everything for everybody. It means you empower everyone to solve their problems. You create shared leadership within here, but that's what I knew. Newer leaders and myself as a new leader a few years ago. And I felt that to build trust with people, I should help them fix every problem. Like in my mind, that was the way to first build trust and to create that culture that I wanted within the building. But what was happening was I was running around like a chicken with my head cut off. And then you're not doing when you're trying to do 50 things, you're not doing any of them 100%. I get to a point where you let that go is kind of hard as a leader. Oh, yeah, I have a, I got to tell the story. I hope she hears this. So what she's actually an elementary principal. So one of the principles I work with in a different in a state, not Wyoming. I will say that she's been a principal, I think for three years now. And when we very first met, so I worked with their entire district, I did a full day of training with with their leadership team and now I've been working with the district for like two years. And she told me afterwards about how she was screen printing t-shirts for her staff. And ask her, well, is there not somebody else who can do that? And she said, oh, yeah, absolutely, but I just don't want to ask that of my secretary. It just, it doesn't seem like I should do that. And the more we have talked and she still screen prints the t-shirts, by the way. I mean, she has not let go of that, but that I, I don't want to put it on somebody else's plate. I'll just do that for them in so many ways. When we do that, we're taking away their responsibilities. And that's that unintentional micromanagement that happens. So people will say, I don't want to be a micromanager, but which typically means you're being a micromanager, whether you realize they're not. But so much of it comes from just that, you know, I do want to help. I want to support. I want to do everything for them. The most important thing you can do is let them do their things. And, and I was like you to like let first year or so as a principal. I couldn't walk down the hallway without getting stopped by 10 people, right? You know, hey, Darren, can you talk to me about this? Hey, I got it. Did you see my email? You know, hey, can I ask you a quick? I'd be 15 minutes late going someplace because you kept getting stopped, right? I mean, that's the experience. Yeah, right? But you have to develop systems so that people still have the opportunity to be heard, but it's not I'm going to run the software, you know, your crisis instead of what we did very quickly. The system that that we developed was just, hey, shoot me an email. I'll get you on the calendar and I'll come to you. And actually, my, my secretary was the one who saw the email scheduled the thing. I mean, she took care of all of it. But over time instead of, hey, you know, Darren, I need you to help me with this. It was, hey, so I had this challenge. And here's what I did. Can I share it with you? And they started to solve their own problems. So the more that we empower others, the less that absolute like firefighter syndrome that we fall into a school leaders can start to. That reminds me of a story. This was a few years ago, but I had a group of students who were constantly coming to me as a school counselor to help them solve their social problems in their group. And that year, I went to the AMLE conference and I was gone for three days. And I came back and they were standing at my door with their hands on their hips. They said, Miss, they don't, don't you ever do that again. We had to solve all our own problems. That's perfect. And that was the moment I thought, oh my gosh, I'm totally enabling that. I'm taking away their agencies, but you lose sight of that in the moment in your desire to just help. Yeah. Well, it comes from the right place. I mean, I really believe it comes from the right place. Nobody's, nobody's doing it because they want to micromanage, right? I mean, it's more of a, I just believe this is the best way to support them if I do this for them. And you're right. In some ways, it probably does build some trust. But it also builds that it's not, no, it's not, it's not healthy for you as the school leader. Maybe you trust them to do the thing. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's a fine line. And as you, I'm sure as you figured, you know, things out over the over a couple of years, you started to let go of more of that and started to have them all their own problems. You're three in my role. I remember thinking at the beginning of the year this year is going really smooth. Everyone is doing, you know, doing their own job and has their role. And it's because I stopped trying to do everything. And they did it. And the climate and culture is much better when that's happening, right? Because there's some shared leadership there and more, much more trust. We have conversations still about the way we're doing things, but just to improve. But also, my husband still checks me sometimes I'll be doing tasks just like the leader in your story screen printing. He'll say, are you doing that? Yeah. Is that your job? And it's like, well, a little bit of everything is my job. But if he asked me that, I think into myself, hmm, probably not, I need to give up control. Someone also coach once told me, as the building leader, you should control 90% of your day and the time within your day. And that that percentage seems so high to me at the time when he said that. That's true. And that's when the job of being a building leader, I also think it's really fun. Because then you do make it to all of the things you went to in those classrooms, seeing all of the great strategies happening in your guiding without being the person in front pulling everyone along. Well, and some of that, too, though, is that you mastered or at least gotten a lot better at knowing how to build your calendar. Instead of, I see this with new leaders all the time, you know, I'm going to get in classrooms. I'm going to put a four-hour block on my calendar. Seriously, you're going to get interrupted once you're never going to go back. But if you do 15 minutes here, 10 minutes here, you know, and that the same thing, not just just for that, like maybe, I mean, I would put, I had six things that to me were like, these are the things I have as my top priority or use as a school leader. And on Sunday afternoon, I would start to plug those into my calendar, five minutes here, 10 minutes here, 15 minutes here, so that I knew these things, these things are not going to get taken away from me. My secretary guarded that time fiercely, which makes me very important to school staff around you and your office staff understand the processes and expectations. If a parent comes in and demands to talk to you right now, what's the process for that you're in your in a classroom. And so what do we do and what you expect us to do and things like that really help leaders to go back to your point of intentionality. Yeah, for sure. Well, this has been so eye opening for me. I love listening to two leaders talking about advising leaders and grateful to all the leaders in all of the schools I've ever worked in. We have been asking all of our podcast guests to answer one final question, which is what is your best piece of advice for middle school educators. Again, I'll tell you what, I think what I would say as far as my best piece of advice would be don't forget to take some time to reflect. Don't forget to I call a balcony level leadership, but just kind of take a step up and really reflect on what you're doing and not just specifically the work, but also the impact that you're having on the lives that you get to touch every day. And we're probably 20 some odd years removed from when I stop being a middle school teacher and I still have kids that I hear from you're impacting so many lives. So don't forget to take the time to reflect on that because that's what kind of will help recharge your battery and remind you of the purpose by what you're doing. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you guys so much for having me on.