Aviator Nation: Paige Mycoskie

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And recently, I spoke to actor Andy Garcia, who shared some amazing stories about starting out in Hollywood, where he worked on a loading dock with another newcomer, Brian Cranston. And he was also a catering waiter at the Beverly Hilton, serving dinner to stars like Jane Fonda. But just a few years later, he was literally making dinner and talking about the Corleone family with Francis Ford Coppola. Check out my conversation with Andy Garcia on my other podcast, The Great Creators. Just search for the great creators with GuyRaz, wherever you listen to podcasts. And now on to today's show. [MUSIC PLAYING] So I first set up a tripod in my apartment, and I took photos of myself wearing all the clothes. And I printed out a little pamphlet. And so my theory was to go into Fred Siegel and basically be wearing the clothes. And I just walked in and I was like, hey, is the buyer here? And the girl at the counter, I remember, just kind of laughed at me. You know, I mean, the thing is, it was such a high profile store that I think she thought I was nuts. Nobody walks in off the street to Fred Siegel and gets a meeting. Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm GuyRaz, and on the show today, how Paige Micosky couldn't find the clothes she liked by a sewing machine to make her own and turned her colorful outfits into the brand Aviator Nation. For better or worse, fashion trends start in very particular places. In the US, those places happen to be New York and Los Angeles. I live just north of San Francisco and it doesn't take long for L.A. trends to make their way up the 101 to Northern California. Anyway, about two years ago, I started to notice a lot of people initially yoga moms and their daughters wearing a very particular type of zip up hoodie. You couldn't miss it. It had five stripes, yellow, orange, red, blue, and navy, like a sunset over water. And I figured that hoodie must come from L.A. And I was right. It was a brand that seemed to explode to come out of nowhere overnight. I even started to notice it on TikTok. At the gym, in the grocery store, it was everywhere. So I figured, well, it must be one of those one-hit wonder brands that'll fizzle out pretty soon. But there, I was wrong. The brand Aviator Nation was actually started in 2006. Its rise was a slow burn to say the least. Its founder, Paige Makoski, started out by making clothing for herself. She'd rifle through the racks at thrift shops around Venice Beach, find vintage sweatshirts, and paste designs onto them, things like rainbows and lightning bolts. They had a late '70s California Beach vibe. And as often happens on this show, people started asking Paige to make one for them. Initially, she sold her sweatshirts to small boutiques in L.A. But eventually, they did so well Paige was able to open up a small store of her own. She didn't have money for advertising, but she happened to be in Los Angeles. Which, as I mentioned earlier, is where fashion trends tend to begin. Aviator Nation eventually branched out beyond sweatpants and shirts, to jackets, hats, bags, and denim. And it grew slowly, but steadily. Not crazy out of proportion sales, but growth each year. But unlike many other successful founders, Paige never took on any investment. She is the main owner of Aviator Nation. During the pandemic, when more casual clothes became a lot more popular and practical, Aviator Nation began to go viral on TikTok and sales exploded, from 27 million to more than 130 million today. Paige Makoski grew up in the 1980s in Texas. Her dad was a doctor for the Texas Rangers, and her mom became a best-selling cookbook author later in life. As for Paige, she loved art and sports and studied photography in college. In the early 2000s, kind of on a lark, she and her brother Blake applied to compete on a new reality show called Survivor. Back then, I don't know how it is now, but you send in like a three-minute video, and that's how you apply. So anyway, he sent in his video, I sent in mine, and like our big thing was like, "Okay, let's make this a competition, let's see who can get on." And like it was so funny a couple weeks later, he called me and he's like, "Did you get a call?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm like, did you get a call?" And so we both got a call from CBS to basically come to an interview. And we obviously were like, "This is so weird. I wonder if they know that we both tried out if they know they're asking us both to come in." They didn't know that you were brother and sister at that point. No, they didn't. And so anyway, we went to our interviews and then we got a second call. We were both being called back. And then finally, I think part three was, for all the final people to come to LA and apparently they were going to put us in front of Les Moonvests, the president of CBS and then he was going to choose the ultimate contestant. So he sits us down and he's like, okay, Blake and Paige, it was not until literally this week that we knew we had two microscopies here. I love you both and I would love to have either of you on Survivor. He was like, but I can't put both of you on Survivor. So you can have the choice. You can either decide amongst yourself who's going to do Survivor or he's like, I have this new show, Amazing Race and I can actually put you both on the show as a team and then you can compete together. And we were like, what's Amazing Race because the first season hadn't even started yet. Apparently, they had just filmed the first season and so this would be for the second season and he explained that to us and he said, well, it's a race around the world, same prize as a million dollars to the winner, but you don't have to go, you know, survive on a deserted island. Instead, you're going to race around the world as a team. And we were like, oh, this sounds amazing. Yes, we want to do Amazing Race. I mean, we knew right away that we didn't want one of us to not be able to do it. So we were like, let's go. Let's be a team. And so anyway, we agreed right there that we would be his first team casted for the second season of Amazing Race. These are details that I did not get from my interview with your brother, who I'm now going to reveal is the founder of Tom's shoes. And we're going to talk about that in a few minutes, but Blake was on our show and we told the story of how he created Tom's. And of course, that was part of it. So you're the other half of the story. This is your perspective now of how you got onto the Amazing Race. So you got onto that show and was around the world trip or you had to go from where did you have to go from and to? Yeah, so it was a race around the world. We started actually in Las Vegas and they dropped us off in helicopters in the middle of the desert. And basically, we had to find our way to an airport. And then the first stop was Brazil and we went to Hong Kong. We went to Australia, New Zealand, multiple places in Africa. And Blake and I, you know, both had never traveled. I think he had been to Europe, but I had never traveled at all. So it was, it was pretty wild. And the premise was like they gave you a small budget. And then you have to survive off that budget and make your way around the world. Like in that man that sometimes you'd sleep like outside oftentimes or like in the jungle or I mean, it was sort of like survivor meets around the world in 80 days. Yeah, absolutely. It was, it was interesting because the show was pretty much just starting. And so they had a very low budget. And it was kind of like a scavenger hunt. But at the same time, we had no money and we're racing around the world. And so Blake and I always thought that our money should go into buying a guidebook because we had no cell phones, no computers, nothing like that. And then we just sacrificed. We were like, okay, like we would buy like a loaf of bread, literally, and eat it for three days. That would be our food. Yeah. And then we would sleep on the street. And that was our strategy. Because if you, if you run out of money, you can't get to the next stop. Basically, you're done. Yeah. Totally. You're done. What was the hardest thing you did during the amazing race? I remember when we were in Australia, we went to this place called Cooper PD. I just remember like just getting sunburned like bad and it being in this extreme heat and having to like trek through the desert. And it was just so brutal. I remember physically just feeling completely exhausted. I lost like 30 pounds on that show. I had like no body fat. Yeah, because we weren't eating. Yeah. How long was the journey total and total? Yeah. So it was six weeks. Wow. And at the end of the rainbow was literally a pot of gold. It was a million dollars to the winner. And they, and you had to get back to Las Vegas within six weeks. So yeah, we ended up, the finish line was actually in San Francisco. And what happened as you approached San Francisco? Yeah. So when we got to San Francisco, we were down to the last three teams. And when we got there, we had to find something and we, and I was looking at the map and Blake took the map out of my hands and was like, no, we're going this way. I know it's this way and like kind of made this like executive decision to go basically in the wrong direction. And it's, it's like a funny thing. Now we joke about it because we ended up losing the race by four minutes in the end. And I always joke with him that he owes me a million dollars and he agrees. Oh, four minutes. Yeah. I mean, it must have been crushing, but obviously looking back on it for starters, it was a great launching pad for Blake and eventually for you. Just, I mean, this literally, that trip helped inspire Blake to start Tom's, right? Like, I guess it would back to Argentina after. And that really was the beginning of his exposure to this idea that maybe he could start a business making shoes and giving a pair away. Yeah. I mean, I think for both of us, we just learned so much about breaking through the barriers because it really were like when you travel, I mean, everyone knows it's stressful to travel, but on those conditions, we really kind of hit a lot of struggles along the way. And I think that both of us were just so close to that million dollars and then losing it that like, I think we both just wanted to do big things. I think we were both just kind of like, let's just go out and make it anyway. All right. So that experience ended. And I think for a time, you actually worked at CBS on survivor as like a casting person, but really that was not going to be sort of your long term career. No, not at all. After the race, we decided to just kind of move to LA. I really wanted to be an LA anyway. I kind of had fallen in love with surfing and the CBS people, you know, offered me the job at survivor to do casting, but I realized pretty soon that it wasn't really for me. I didn't love the travel. And so I started kind of working at a surf shop on the side. And I was a little all over the place at that time. You start working at a surf shop called ZJ boarding house. I think it's still there in Santa Monica, like full time. Yeah. I started as data entry. And I was basically putting in orders for the buyers. It was funny. I would be going through catalogs, putting in his order. And then I would look at my buyer and be like, you know, are you sure you want to order this one? Because I think I think these shoes are actually like way cooler. And I think this hoodie is like way cooler. And I always just kind of had a knack for what people would want. And like, so he would say, okay, let's try that. Let's try that. And then we would order it. And then it would sell out. And so he saw that I was really good at choosing what should go in the store. And so he ended up making me his buyer's assistant. And so then I started going to trade shows. And it was so fun. I got to pretty much choose what we were going to carry. And I shifted pretty much what he was ordering kind of more of the safe items. And I always wanted the more risky items. Yeah, what were you into? What were the kinds of looks that you were attracted to? I always wanted the really crazy stuff, you know, the funky colors, the stuff that a lot of people in retail would say that nobody really wants to buy. And I always believed that like if you had a little bit of the crazy and you still had the blacks and the whites and the neutrals, like that stuff actually looks cooler when it's paired with a little bit of the crazy stuff. I guess at a certain point, you decided to just for fun start learning how to make clothes like you bought a sewing machine and I guess some instructional DVDs. Yeah. So I just, you know, I had all these ideas in my head. I was really, really specific about what I personally wore. I really liked things that felt super broken in. I wanted really soft clothing all the time. And I naturally ended up shopping in thrift stores and good will and flea markets. And I was starting to get more and more specific about like I would see something that I liked, but it wouldn't fit the way I wanted it to fit. Or I would have something I liked the way it fit, but it wasn't the color I wanted. And, you know, growing up my grandmother made her own clothes and I spent a lot of time with her and it kind of just hit me. You know, I think I'm going to buy a sewing machine and just make what I'm looking for. Right. And I got some money for my birthday. It was in 2006 and I remember I ordered a couple books on sewing and DVDs and I taught myself to sew. I taught myself to make patterns. I just could not wait to get home from work and play around on my sewing machine. And I remember honestly like no joke staying up all night long, making clothes. I was completely obsessed. And then I started wearing, you know, the clothes to work. And that's kind of where it started is everybody was just like what is that? That's so dope. That's a rad shirt. What is that? Tell me what they looked like. Because I guess you were using a technique called applique and I'm forgive me. I've never made my own clothes. Actually, maybe I think I did make a tie-dye shirt and camp once when I was a kid. So I did have made my own clothes. Yes, sorry. What is applique? I don't know what that is. Can you explain that to me? Yeah. So my technique was I basically had an idea of what the graphic was that I wanted on the shirt. And I didn't know how to screen print or anything like that. So for me, I just drew the graphic on a different color, cut it out of fabric and then sewed that fabric on top of the other garment. So like a heart, you know, if I wanted a heart on the shirt, I would cut out a heart and then I would sew it on. So that's technically applique. So a lot of it was stripes and shapes, hearts, sunsets, you know, and I would make. it all. I would draw it on other colors of t-shirts, cut it out, and then sew it on to the sweatshirt. And yeah, it was very handmade looking. But it also had this like super unique look. Because I mean, nobody was really doing that. I just did it because it was the only thing that made sense in my head. Yeah. And this was before the Lisa Frank revival that happened a couple years ago. Like those things, lightning bolts, and hearts, that's like it was not yet hadn't been cool in 2005, 2006 when you were doing it. So probably people were like, wow, that's different. Oh, yeah. It was, that's so weird. It's like, I look at this stuff. I was literally painting, you know, as a eight year old girl and I'm kind of doing the same thing now. Yeah. I'm curious. This is 2006. And this is around the time your brother Blake is starting times, which would become a huge business, of course. Did you ever talk about maybe just joining him? Because that was a fashion brand that he was starting. Yeah. It's a really funny story. So when I bought my sewing machine, which was in February 2006, he was in Argentina. And he was supposed to kind of decide what he was going to do next. And he came back from Argentina and we were very, very close. He goes, page, I have an idea and I want to tell you about it. He came in and he was like, told me the whole thing. He said he was in Argentina and he was inspired by all the people that didn't have shoes there. And so he wanted to make a traditional Argentina shoe and like an espadrille. Yeah. And so his idea was obviously to give back to the people of Argentina by giving away a pair of shoes when he sold a pair. Then it was so random. I mean, he had done nothing in retail. And he was like, what do you think? And I said, oh, my God, that's so crazy. I was like, I literally bought a sewing machine a couple of weeks ago and I've been making clothes. We literally are both thinking about getting into like the fashion industry and we both had no previous discussion about being in fashion at all. And it was just so, it was kind of a funny moment that we shared. But I, but we definitely had our own thing going. All right. So he's starting his business. You're, you're making sweatshirts and t-shirts mainly, right? Yeah. And sweatpants. And sweatpants. Okay. And at what point did you think, well, maybe I should sell these? Like how did it go from you just kind of making stuff on your sewing machine to selling it to people? One day I was in Venice and I was walking around and I literally got stopped by like three or four different people in span of a couple hours asking me where they could buy my sweatpants. Where did you get those? Wow. And these were sweatpants with just like colorful stripes along the sides. Yeah. And I just told him, of course, I made it myself. Sorry. Like I just made it myself, you know, but that happened like in one day like three times. And I was just like, this is actually crazy. Like these people want to buy this. And I thought, I wonder if I could actually make clothes and sell them and make more money than I'm making right now at my job. And then I think it was like a few days later, I went to a trade show with my boss for ZJ boarding house. And I was at the action sports trade show in San Diego and I was wearing something that I made to the trade show. And it was like a feeding frenzy because all these people are there to buy, you know, whatever's the cool thing for their store. And it was like I couldn't walk 20 feet without someone being like, what are you wearing? What is that shirt? And I couldn't go anywhere. I mean, people like were just out of control, thought it was nuts. And so I knew when I got home, I was like, I'm going to try to do this. I'm going to try to actually make a collection and sell it. When we come back in just a moment, Paige makes some more clothes and takes them unannounced to one of the most exclusive boutiques in LA. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raaz and you're listening to how I built this. This message is a paid partnership with Applecard. 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My favorite episode is the one about Render Runway from 2017, because of two reasons. First, I use it as a short business case in a class that I teach about business models and entrepreneurship in a new university here in Santiago, because it teaches the importance of running tests and MVPs and all that fun stuff. But the most important one is the fact that anyone with a good idea and with a relentless focus on execution can build a business that impacts society. And I think that's the reason why I love your show so much. Thank you very much. If you want to share your favorite episode of how I built this, record a short voice memo on your phone, telling us your name, where you're from, what your favorite episode is, and why. A lot like the voice memo you just heard. And email it to us at [email protected]. And we'll share your favorites right here in the ad breaks in future episodes. And thanks so much. We love you guys. You're the best. And now back to the show. Hey, welcome back to how I built this. I'm Guy Roz. So it's 2006. And it seems like whenever Paige goes out wearing her handmade clothes, people ask her, where can I buy that? So she decides to start selling them. And so I decided, I'm going to quit my job. I'm going to move home to Arlington. I'm going to tell my parents that I'm going to spend some time sewing only focused on these clothes that I was making. And I was going to try to start selling the clothes. And I just felt like I needed to get into the craft. Like I needed to just be sewing. I needed to see what I could really do. You know. So I went back to Texas for May and June of 2006 and I pretty much did not leave the bedroom. I set up a workshop and I just sewed all day all night and I had like a rack outside my door and I was just making clothes. - With the idea that you would then do what? You would bring it to a retailer and see if they would buy them and put them on the racks or you would sell them at a flea market or at a trade show, what was your idea? I basically did not really know at that time. I knew that I was gonna try to sell it to somebody back in California. I knew that California was the place where people were starting brands. So my plan was basically to try to get a collection sewn up because I knew that from being the buyer's assistant that people sell a collection. They don't just sell two things. So I needed to make an actual collection and then I would decide where I would try to sell it but there was one store particular that was what I thought was the best store in LA. It was Fred Siegel in Santa Monica. And that was always where I thought all the new up and coming brands and were being displayed. And so my goal was to make a collection in Texas and then go back to LA and try to get Fred Siegel to carry the brand. - Tell me what the designs looked like. I mean, again, was it t-shirts with sewn hearts on them? Was it lightening bolts or was it stripes? Tell me what it looked like. - Yeah, it was a lot of stripes. I would make like a little half sun. So it'd be like a sunset on a bunch of stripes. And then the lightening bolt was another thing that was really consistent. I just loved lightening bolts. And all the stuff that I liked was from the '70s. I mean, a lot of the kind of vintage stuff that I wore and would buy would have kind of those '70s rainbows and stuff on them. I also had posters in my rooms and stuff of like cars that were from the '70s. I think that I get inspiration from the colors of cars and a lot of record albums and old skateboards. - And tell me about the sweatpants or the t-shirts or the sweatshirts. I mean, you were buying those already off the rack or you were making those from scratch. You were actually designing a cut. - I was making them from scratch. So I would buy garments at Goodwill and Thriftstores and just cut it up into a big piece of fabric. And then I would make my own garment from patterns that I would make. And the way that I would make the patterns is for me. And again, this is like totally no like fashion school and a lot of people probably think I'm crazy. But I would take my favorite garment, like let's say my favorite t-shirt. I would carefully take all of the stitching out of it and then I could lay it flat. And then I had a puzzle. Like I had a piece of each part of the garment and then I would trace that onto paper and I would have a pattern. - Over that two and a half month period living in Texas at your parents' home, how many items of clothing do you think you made? - I would say I probably made around a hundred garments. And what did your parents think about this? I mean, were they supportive or were they like, hey, so what's the plan? Like you're gonna get a job? Like what did they think? - Yeah, it's funny. I mean, my mom is always like, just loves everything. My dad, on the other hand, is very, very supportive and encouraging, but he's also very analytical. And I'll never forget we're sitting in the kitchen and I was like, okay, here's the thing. Like I made some clothes, I was wearing them around. People liked them, I think I'm gonna try to start a clothing brand. Well, what do you think? Do you believe in this? And he was like, I'll give you, like, I think he said six months to be profitable. He was like, if you're profitable in six months, then I'll believe in you. Something like that, that was like pretty hard core, but like at the same time, it made sense, you know? It was like a reasonable amount of time. So I said, okay, I gotta do this fast. It's gotta be profitable. And I'm gonna miss a day focused, you know? - So after a few months in Texas, presumably you go back to, and by the way, did you have a name for your label, for your brand at that point? - I thought of the name when I was back in California, like right after I got back. So I was basically sitting there in my bedroom and I had all the clothes around me and I think I probably lit a couple candles. I always do that. I'm like, big into like, setting the vibe. - You are definitely living the California. You're like-- - I'm a vibe center. - Yeah, you're like proving the stereotypes of like hippie-dippy people in Southern California. You're like the candles. Okay, I'm in your room, you're liking candles, right? - Oh yeah, and even today, like I don't start my work until I have candles lit and music playing and like the right lighting. - But your cortisol levels are low, yeah, okay, that's good. - Yeah, so I kinda set my vibe. And of course, as a photographer, I'm thinking to myself, like I'm gonna have to like shoot photos of this stuff and what's it gonna look like as a brand and literally on a shelf in my bedroom. I have probably 30 pairs of aviators on glasses all different, like I get them at flea markets and stuff and I always collect them and I always wore aviator. I think my first obsession with aviators came from Tom Cruise and Kelly McGillis and Top Gun 'cause that was my favorite movie and I had the poster on my wall growing up and then I remember thinking like, what do I want to do with this brand? Like, you know, this could be cool if it was like also bringing cool people together and the word nation kinda came from that because I'm like, I want it to be like a group of people that are all wearing these cool sunglasses, this lifestyle hanging out at the beach, like surfing together, friends. So anyway, I'm like aviator nation. The very same night I was messing around with what I should do with the logo and I put the A and the N together and I realized that that was really cool and then the lines that are in the A were meant to represent the sunset. All right, so you have a name and a logo and about a hundred garments and so your goal is to get into Fred's Eagle and so how did you go about approaching them? Did you start to call them? Was there like a number for a buyer that you found? What did you do? - So it's like the calling people thing just doesn't work and I kinda knew that from working at the surf shop because when people would call, I mean it's just like leave a message like the buyer never really got back to most of the people calling but I've seen people walk in off the street from working in the surf shop and being like, hey, can I get a meeting and sometimes you can't. So I first set up a tripod in my apartment and I took photos of myself wearing all the clothes and I printed out paper like a little pamphlet of myself wearing all the clothes. And so my theory was to go into Fred's Eagle and basically be wearing the clothes and I just walked in and I was like, hey, is the buyer here? And the girl at the counter, I remember just kinda laughed at me, you know? I mean, the thing is it was such a high profile store that I think she thought I was nuts, you know? Like nobody walks in off the street to Fred's Eagle and gets a meeting. And she's like, no, you know, the buyer's not here and I said, okay, well, can I just leave this behind for her? And it was the photos that I took of the clothes and so she's like, okay, sure, I'll give it to her. And so I left the stuff behind and I got in my car and before I even left the parking lot my phone rang and it was like the girl from inside and she's like, page, the buyer actually was just walking in when you were walking out, she happened to see you and what you're wearing and I showed her the pictures and she loves it and how soon can you meet? She wants to meet you. - Wow. - Yeah, I was just like, what? And I'm like, tomorrow and she's like, okay. And so I went back the next day, I had my rolling rack and I put all my clothes on there and I rolled them into Fred's Eagle and of course I'm wearing the clothes. And the buyer looked at the rack and she wanted all of it. She wanted everything. - Wow. - And so she wrote an order, a big order and I think it added up to about $8,000 and I had my first order. And she was like, so when do you deliver it? And it was funny because of course I have no real hardcore experience. I didn't know. I mean, I knew I had to make all the stuff myself so I'm like quickly in my head adding up how many garments it is. Like I said, I can deliver in three months. I'm curious though, what do you think explains? I mean, what you were bringing in? It was still fairly straightforward. I mean, it was sweatshirts and t-shirts and sweatpants with mainly with stripes or with the sewn on lightning bolts or heart. I mean, I guess at that time, this is like 2005, 2006 people are wearing like, like juicy couture and Von Dutch hats and I'm trying to think what they were wearing in Southern California. What was different? Why do you think this appealed to the buyer so quickly at Fred Siegel? - Well, I think it was, you know, the same thing that appealed to the random people that were like stopping me on the street. I think that it really stood out, you know? It was very bright colors in a certain combination that for whatever reason people gravitated to. And it had a handmade look to it. It was just very, very bold. The beginning garments were literally like, just tons of stripes and tons of color. And I think it was just like, wow, what is that? - Yeah. - And so I think that maybe she thought, oh, it'll draw people into the store because it's so colorful or something like that. - How did you know what to charge for each garment? - Right, so that was interesting. And I actually credit my brother to this. I called my brother when I was working on the collection and I said, I need to figure out prices on this. and he said, "Well, what is it cost to make it?" And I said, "Well, it's kind of hard to figure out because I'm like making it myself." And so he said, "Okay, well, you need to figure out what you value your time at and how much time it takes to make the garment and your cost of materials." He's like, and then you have to add like a little bit of margin because, you know, like if this is gonna be your life page, you need to be able to like survive. So I actually timed myself making certain elements of the garment and then I remember telling my brother, I'm like, "Look, it adds up to a lot." Like I've got to sell, you know, this t-shirt for like $65 and I've got to sell this hoodie for like $100 or whatever and he's like, "It's better to price yourself high than too low because there's always gonna be like unexpected cost and stuff like that." He's like, "Just go in there with the prices and see what happens." And she didn't even bat an eye at the prices. - Yeah, so if they ordered $8,000 or more give or take worth of clothing, you probably had to make at least 50 or 100 more garments. - Yeah, and actually after I left Fred Seagull, I ended up on the way home, stopping at the store planned at Blue. This was another kind of really hot store in Venice and I remember thinking, you know, I'm just gonna try for one more. And so I went in there and I was like, "Hey guys," I said, "Is the buyer around?" And it ended up being the buyer, this guy that I asked happened to be there and I said, "Look, I live literally across the street. I just made these clothes. I just sold to Fred Seagull like 10 minutes ago. Nobody else is gonna have this, but I think your store's really good. I would love for you to also have it." And so when I brought it in, he loved it and he was actually a men's buyer and she and the Fred Seagull girl was a woman's buyer and I told him it was unisex. It doesn't matter, it sweats, it's t-shirts. And so he bought all of it for men's, like in bigger sizes. - Wow. - So then at that moment, I actually called my brother and I was like, "I now have an order from Fred Seagull "and plant up with the two best stores in LA." And he was like, "Okay, well don't sell anymore "because you can't not deliver on time "or you're gonna be screwed." And he was like, "You have to make all this stuff." And I'm like, "Okay." So I kind of added up like what it was gonna cost and I went to Wells Fargo and they gave me alone for $8,000 and boom, that was it. That was the money that I used to make the stuff. - With that order, you presumably had three or four months to do, you didn't hire anybody. You decided to do this all by yourself? - Yes, I did it all by myself. I did actually have my mom helping me. Like she would cut stripes for me and she would also help me make like the labels and the tags and stuff. - So you went back to Texas to do this? - No, she came out to California and stayed with me. - Wow, you basically had a mini garment factory in your apartment in LA. - Oh yeah, it was the funniest thing ever. I mean, I would be boiling the dye on the stove. Like while my mom's like making dinner on the stove. And then I had like a hose out of my bathroom window 'cause I was like, I had the whole screen printing thing set up. Like, I mean, it was like a little factory, my whole apartment. - I mean, you were buying white fabric basically? - Yeah, at that point, I was buying white fabric and dying it. And I, what's funny is, so I made all the garments for the order and I had COD on the order. - So they paid you the moment you walked in? - They paid me the moment I walked in. So I essentially dropped off the order at Fred Seagull, got my check, dropped off an order at Planet Blue, got my check. I went to Wells Fargo, I paid off my loan and I called my dad and told him I was profitable, which was pretty dope. And now let's wait and see if it sells. And so, so I dropped it, I think on like a Friday or something and I got a call on Monday and the girl was like, Paige, we sold out, we need a reorder. Like everything is gone. And I, like, it was the coolest feeling ever, but at the same time I had so much fear of like, how can I get a reorder going so fast that took me so long to make all that. And so, but it was, it was amazing because it was basically the moment of truth for me that this wasn't just a small thing. Like they literally sold over a hundred garments in a weekend. And that's a lot of money to make in a weekend. - Yeah. - And she was like, how soon can you get it to me? And I said, I'll do the best I can. I'll start sewing right now and I'll get you shipments as soon as I'm done with like a stack of clothes, I'll bring them over. And I was just bringing over clothes like every week of however many I could make. And there was a waiting list. People like literally had a waiting list, yeah. - And you were, this was literally, you were buying all the raw materials off the shelf. - Yes. And then, you know, a few months in, I was like, I need to start trying to figure out how to do this and bulk. And that was when I kind of started to go down town and find materials and bigger quantities and stuff like that. - Downtown LA to the Garmin. - Exactly. So I would go downtown LA and I started just going into factories I went door to door. And if I saw a factory I thought was clean and looked good then I would go in and try to meet with someone and show them one of my garments and be like, hey, can you make this? And literally nobody wanted to touch it. - Why? - They thought it was too complicated and they were all making like basic t-shirts. - Yeah, I mean, this is the height of American apparel was making things in downtown LA. - Yeah, exactly. And that was what people were making is just real simple basic t-shirts. Like they had no, I mean, even the single needle machines to sew the fabric on top of the fabric was not even something that they had. So it was a little bit scary because I was clearly making something that was way more complicated than all these other people were making. And I really needed to figure out how to do it. And so finally, I found a factory that was like an embroidery house that did applique work with embroidery. And basically it was a detail shop. It was a very small factory and they did a lot of detail work. But my question is you were hand making everything yourself. So everything was slightly different and it was to your standards. Now you're putting it in the hands of a factory. How were you going to ensure that the quality of the standards were what you expected? - Yeah, so it was really interesting because I talk them into letting me train their people to do what I was doing, which was really kind of unique ways of doing things with some of these early garments, like the way that I would sew the stripes together with a zigzag stitch. And so I literally sat down with their sores and taught them to do it exactly how I was doing it to make it look imperfect because that was part of the beauty of it. It didn't need to be perfect. And they were trained to do things perfect. And I was like, no, no, no, no. Every stripe can be a little bit different. That's what we want. - All right, so now that you had a factory that agreed to make the garments, you had to now focus on getting other customers or clients. So how did you do that? I mean, did you go to other shops? Did you go to trade shows or anything like that? - Yeah, so I actually did end up selling to ZJ boarding house also. I went back to them and then the Abit Kinney Street Festival was coming up and I decided that I was gonna do that. And it would be fun to sell basically right down the street in my neighborhood and have a little street fare and make some extra money. - And this is like Abit Kinney sort of like a hip kind of street in Venice with a lot of cool boutiques. Although now there's a lot of bigger chains, but traditionally a lot of smaller boutiques on that street. - Yes, at that time it was like a hippie hotspot. Like it was flower shops and coffee shops and like little vintage stores and whatever. And they had the street festival. So I spent $500, I bought a booth at the street festival and I sold up as much as I could and I ended up making I think $8,500, $8,600 in one day selling clothes at that street festival. - I imagine or I think pretty soon after that you really started to branch out. Like you started to go to trade shows and things like that, right? - Yeah, to get into one of these fancy trade shows it cost $5,000 for a booth. So since I had just made the money on the street fair I was like I'm gonna put all this money into doing the trade show. - And I asked my friend Reed Thompson who was just a buddy of mine, not an employee. And I said hey, will you go out to this trade show in Las Vegas and help me set up a booth and see if I get any orders. - Yeah. - And we go to this trade show and we set it all up and we literally every other booth. It was just really simple like basic stuff that people were selling because I remember walking around just being like wow, like everything just seems so boring. And then my booth looks like a California explosion of color. It stood out so much. No one could walk by the booth without stopping. So it became this flood of people and we were riding orders faster than we knew what to do. And that night we got to the hotel room and we had this huge stack of orders. - Yeah. - We had sold $150,000 worth of clothes. - Wow. - And that was when it just really became a legit brand. (upbeat music) - When we come back in just a moment, Paige starts to build a team and learn some tough lessons about hiring, firing and getting scammed. Stay with us, I'm Guy Ross and you're listening to how I built this. September is world all-timers month. But let's. Those people never check their brain health until something's feeling off or wrong. I wanted to stop waiting and look at my own data. 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It's listening to your gut. It's moving forward even when the path ahead is unclear. For nearly 160 years, Pacific life has helped people keep their promises, building confidence for generations, whether you're confident in your financial future or just beginning to envision it. We're here to help. Ask a financial professional how. Pacific life. The power of a promise. Pacific life insurance company Omaha, Nebraska and in New York, Pacific life anonymity Phoenix, Arizona. I'm Guy Ross. So it's 2008 and business is ramping up for aviator nation. Page has a bunch of new orders to fill and she's starting to think about opening a store. So she hires her friend Reed and goes out to get a bank loan. And I think they gave me a credit line. I want to say it was like $30,000 or something like that. So then I start thinking, okay, terms and stuff like that because it was a whole project of figuring out how to get the garments made on this like tiny little budget. Meanwhile, pay for my living and read and you know, whatever else. So read and I were working in my apartment, but like, you know, working out of your apartment, you start to think, okay, I couldn't really do it out in my bedroom after a while. So I was looking around for office space. And I remember talking to my brother about it too and just being like office space so expensive and he was like, well, you should try to sell the clothes and have an office in the same building. Like it was definitely his idea for me to have a retail store. So I started looking around on Abbott Kinney because that was like my favorite street. And the building that I found that we still have today. So that was the first store. I really did not have big dreams of having a bunch of retail stores. It was kind of like I needed to sell the clothes out of the front to pay for the office in the back. And the store in your mind was going to be a one-off. It was going to be that was going to be your store where you would sell the clothes and maybe a few other retailers would also sell them. Yes. But again, like, you know, as far as financing the store, it's actually crazy because I mean, I pretty much built the store myself. I mean, I had my parents help me a little bit like as far as my dad helped me hang things on the walls. My mom was helping me paint the walls. I had a couple other friends that would come in and help paint, but I built that first Abbott Kinney store for like nothing. And how did you decorate it? I put my own personal belongings up on the walls. I mean, I took my record collection and I hammered it up on the walls. I took my skateboard collection and I put it up on the wall. And all the furniture was vintage furniture that I found at like thrift stores and stuff. That's kind of how our aesthetic of our stores was developed. And a lot of the stores still kind of look like that. I mean, I've been to the one in Marin County. I think there's like records like pasted to the walls and surfboards and guitars and I mean, it still has that aesthetic. Yeah. I mean, one of the big things with me is just realizing it was honestly this like awakening of like, okay, this isn't just about clothes. This is about building a place. And like I remember going to my grand opening and I showed up and it was like a line down the block of people waiting to come in. And the way it made me feel was so much different than just getting a big order. It was like a high. I was just like, this is amazing. Huh. And it seems like based on that experience, you actually decided to start building more stores. I mean, I think pretty quickly expanded to like four of them. There was one in Malibu, one in Manhattan Beach. Yeah. And by the way, were you able to open them all purely through cash flow? Yes. Pure. Wow. Yes. So cash flow, I was very, very hard negotiator with my landlords. I basically talked them into starting me at hardly any rent with a sharp escalation of rent. Like I've now negotiated with some of the largest property owners in the country and they've told me actually like, this one guy that it actually owns all of the retail and the win hotel told me I was the hardest negotiator he's ever met. And he owns. Well, what is your, what were you pushing for that made me so tough? The thing is for me in the beginning, you know, I knew that I didn't want to take a lot of risk. So, but I was willing to reward my landlord if I did well, you know, so I would always negotiate where I would have several months of free rent so that I could have no expense on actually building out the store. And then I would make sure that I got the store built in half that time so that I could have the store open making money before rent was actually due. So that was one thing I also like to give myself an out like in the first year if it's not going well, like I can walk away. And then basically sharp rent escalations that like made sense, you know, to get the landlord to where they wanted to be. But only when I knew that I was making good enough money and land and also I'm very, very good at like taking care of stuff and like I don't bother the landlord. I try to repair things on my own, but, you know, after I build a couple stores and I've created this buzz, I mean, when I opened Abbott Kinney my first store, I think like literally a few months after I opened Abbott Kinney, like started to explode, you know, the New York Times did this big story about the Aviation store and Abbott Kinney becoming a new hot spot and then more stores started to open. And so ultimately the landlord of my store, of course, you know, in his mind, he's just saying, wow, now my building is becoming more valuable because Paige has like created this thing that's like a fashion place now. And so obviously, you know, my rent went up and I was happy to pay it because our sales went up. And so then I was able to get landlords to take me on and charge me much less rent just because they thought my store would be good for their street and good for their, their building. Paige, as the brick and mortar store and eventually more than one were doing well, how did you find it to be in a position where you were a boss or you were managing people and the stores and the brand? I mean, and at one point, you let everybody go like all everybody who was working for Aviation. Tell me what was going on. I mean, did you, was it a combination of you kind of learning how to run a business and how to lead and also how to find the right people? Was it all those things and more, I mean, I think 18 people, what happened with these taffers? Yeah. So basically, after my team got bigger and having the four stores in the LA area and quite a few retail employees, it actually started to get complicated and there was some drama involved and it was quickly becoming something that was not fun when it came to managing the people. I started to find out, oh, like this person doesn't want to be scheduled to work in Malibu because they're not getting along with the person that works there. And then I found out, well, so and so actually was like sleeping with this other employee. I mean, every other minute, there was another dramatic thing happening and it was all based on the employees. So I ended up doing, like you said, this kind of mass firing, all the retail employees and I literally let everyone go but I just didn't know how else to deal with all the drama. Like I couldn't tell who was telling the truth and whatever. I decided at that point that I was going to be extremely strict with who I hired. I was going to make sure that I checked at least three or four references and I had certain ways of trying to figure out the most positive people, I was like, I only want people working for me that are literally the most positive people that you can imagine. So how did you start to learn how to become a leader? I mean, I think about my own experience becoming a leader over two decades of more of doing this work. I learned over time how to get better at it, I mean, we make mistakes along that journey all of us do and I have to imagine you did too. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that that period of time before I had to let everybody go, I think but I was really caught up in the business and other things and I wasn't paying close enough attention to the type of person I was hiring. But I started getting super involved with actually doing every single interview myself. And even until literally until about two years ago, I used to approve every single hire even the retail level. So I personally, I think what makes me a little bit of a different boss is that I have literally done every single job in the company. And so I have an understanding of their struggles and what they're going through, whether it's the sores. I mean, the sores, the print shop, all of the die house. So if I can speak the language of the employee, then I think that makes me a better leader because I'm able to get down on their level because I've been there. I think during this period when you let a bunch of people go, there was a couple who came to you to propose helping you professionalize the business and that actually turned out to be a really bad decision. What happened? Yeah, so I basically was at a trade show. And this couple, this man and wife came to me and they were like, we want to help you manage your production. They kind of said, look, we're going to manage all of your vendors, all your relationships with the people that are helping put the garments together and you're just going to pay us a flat fee per garment and we're going to pay all of them. And I mean, it sounded like a great deal. And so I hired these people and I gave them a big deposit on the production that was about to be made and they disappeared with all of my money. And they filed bankruptcy and pretty much disappeared and they had all my designs and they had all my samples and they had all this, I mean, it was like, whoa. I think that maybe coming out of small town, Texas, whatever, maybe I was naive or something, I don't know. I was not expecting it at all and it was a huge chunk of money and it made me just immediately harden. Like, I went from really kind of trusting everybody to then being like, I don't trust anybody 'cause I didn't want to tell anybody and that's another thing, you know? - It's humiliating, it feels like-- - It's humiliating and I have this team of people around me that I've been preaching to, like, hey, positive, positive. Yet, I'm like in shambles internally but I have to put on my happy face as a boss and pretend like everything's okay 'cause the last thing I want is the whole company to think, oh my God, she just gave all this money to these people that disappeared and what's gonna happen with all these orders we have on these products that these people were supposed to be making. - Yeah. - But that was the moment that I decided I was gonna have my own factory because I needed to control everything. - You're gonna build your own factory or you're gonna work with your own. - No, I was gonna basically build my own factory with what money? - So at that point, I think I still, I had the credit line with the bank. I probably leaned on that credit line at that point and so that's how I was able to then basically what I did is I bought out a factory that was doing work for me. I bought all the machines I took over the employees and I hired the guy that was running the factory to work for me. And I realized that it was my responsibility that the garments were made fairly and the people were getting paid properly because if you hire a factory to make clothes in LA and those employees for that factory are not getting paid properly and are not getting workman's comp and all the things, it is my liability even though it's not my factory because I'm the one that is selling the garments. And so I just said, you know what? I'm gonna hire my own people and I'm gonna make sure that it's all done perfectly. - And I mean, you were still a relatively small business. I mean, I think that by 2012, from what I understand you're doing about $5 million in revenue, which is still a small business. You were still, as I say, margins were probably still fairly narrow for a fairly slim. - Yes. - And you could charge more for your sweatshirts and t-shirts and sweatpants because there was demand but also the cost was higher. You were making this primarily in Los Angeles. Did you ever at that point or since then think, you know, we really should start making these in Asian factories or costs as a fraction to make these products and we can have way higher margins which is what virtually every fashion brand is even the premium fashion brands. You can go into Neiman Marcus today and look at the high-end designer brands and much of the material, much of the clothing is made in China and the prices are astronomical. Did you ever consider doing that? - No, I never did. And the reason is, I mean, there's a few reasons but I truly love that this is an American-made product. I've always been excited about the factory experience. I mean, when I was working closely with the small factory and I was becoming friends with those people making the clothes, I think I just felt so connected to all those people that I just never imagined like taking the work away from them. - Everything is still made in the US. - Yeah, everything's made in California. - And I mean, you can just to play devil's advocate. There is high-quality clothing made in China. The quality of raw materials can be very high. I mean, the only difference is the cost of labor is a lot lower. So is there a world where you could justify in your mind making things in China or Vietnam or another country that would be equally as good but with just lower labor costs? - I mean, the thing is, like I'm like, look, I've already established this brand at this price. People are buying the product for this price. So they're already giving me the money that I need to make it here because I'm not gonna lower my prices if I take it overseas. I mean, I've already established the price and so it's just gonna be more money in my pocket and I don't need that money because like, I have the money I need to run the business. I'm not trying to open 100 stores, you know, I love doing this slow and I'm like, so why would I change it? Really, like, I have done research and I have friends that make stuff in overseas and even my brother made his shoes overseas and he told me and others have told me like it gets really complicated. I mean, if something is made overseas and it arrives, you can't turn it back, you know, like you can't say, "Oh, that color is not exactly the color I want." I mean, and I'll tell you, every single week, I make changes in what's going on in my factory because there's things that have to be adjusted all the time. I mean, every lot of fabric shrinks a little bit differently. And, you know, sometimes I'm like, oh, this collection is not selling as fast as I want it to. So don't make any more of those. Like, literally stop the machines. I mean, we just stopped a whole collection we were doing for this music festival happening in Egypt because of what's happening in Israel. Like, we literally were able to stop it. So it's that. I'm gonna have the ability to pivot so quickly, which ultimately I think makes me a better brand and a better company. Do you remember in 2016, roughly what your revenue was? - Yeah, I was doing about six and a half million. That had like five or six stores then. - So 2016, you're about six and a half million. So each store is doing about a million dollars in revenue because it's all pretty much at that point being sold in stores. You were not, your online sales were probably relatively small compared to your brick and mortar sales in 2016. - Oh, for sure. And so going from a six and a half million dollar business to a 20 million dollar or 30 million dollar business, sometimes it requires advertising and marketing. Tell me a little bit about your strategy around that. - Yeah, so it was really about opening this brick and mortar stores. I thought having the stores was kind of like a billboard. I'm like, if I have stores in these prime spots, then that is going to naturally get the customer. And then later on, I can grow the online business. But first, for somebody to pay the price point that I was demanding, they would have to feel the product and try it on because it really is. It's a product that a lot of the value of it is the comfort level. But if the product's good, then the marketing in my opinion was just going to kind of take care of itself by like the word amount. And in 2018, at that point, I had, I think, eight stores. In 2019, I decided that was going to be my year of like, just focused on opening stores. I literally spent my entire year on the road and I opened a new store every two months. Like I opened five stores in 2019. - So, all right, so you are growing steadily and you hit, what was your revenue in 2019? - Yeah, so in 2019, I was up to 27 million in sales. - So, you'd gone from six and a half in 2016 to 27 million three years later, which is a really nice, healthy growth. Tell me about COVID, COVID hits. And this is, I mean, especially given that you were heavily in brick and mortar, invested in brick and mortar, what did you do? You need to shut down all the stores, obviously. And you were going to lose a lot of money. What happened was, like I remember having like, two or three days to like, basically close everything. And I'm going to have this. huge overhead. And I was like, from now through the weekend, I might have been 24 hours or something. I think it was 24 hours or something like that. I was like, I want to put on email that says, everything that we sell is going to go toward paying the employees during shutdown. Because I need a lot of money to carry us through however long this is going to be. I was like, I don't know what else to do. So we sent out an email. I stayed up all night. Like I looked at like orders I had for blooming dowels that I knew were going to get canceled. And I put that stuff on the website. Like, at that time, we were doing I think around $30,000 online a day or something. And I put out that email and 24 hours we did like over a million dollars on our website. And that basically bought me like four months of overhead. Wow. I mean, your sales exploded during COVID. And so other apparel brands to Viori and other, you know, at Leisureware, so-called at Leisureware brands did. Did you anticipate that? Did you expect that to happen? Or would you just totally surprised at what happened with your sales? Well, you know, I think that a big part of it honestly is this email that I sent out because if you think about it a million and a half is a lot. You know, that's a lot of product to basically go into the hands of all these people that then are just talking to people on Zoom calls and stuff. And then they all see the close. I mean, did you have an influencer strategy? No, not at all. Nothing. Did not do any of that. Nothing. Because there was a point where all of a sudden, I mean, every teenage girl between the age of, I don't know, 12 and 18, I'm seeing wearing aviator nation. And I start to ask around. And somebody said, oh, it's all over TikTok. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I'm all about like letting the stores kind of just post and whatever. But I mean, we don't really have a huge social following either. I think we have less than 300,000 followers. Oh, wow. Well, it took a lot of people a long time to discover it because you started in 2006 and for sure, definitely, 2020 is when a lot of people first heard about this brand is 14 years in. So I mean, 14 overnight success, but for in 14 years. Yeah, exactly. Um, this is what I wonder about your brand is, you know, on fire, right? It is expected from what I understand about $130 million in revenue this year. So obviously growing very fast. But I wonder, you look at a brand like, let's say Tom's, your brothers, the company started and he's not involved anymore. It was sold. It's as busy as it was five years ago, 10 years ago, right? And I wonder how you think about staying ahead of the curve. There is a real risk in fashion, especially with TikTok trends moving is still, you know, the consciousness, like in a blink of an eye, that people might not be as interested in this in a year. So how do you, how do you future proof what you're putting out into the world? I kind of attribute this, you know, my strategy to my personality, which is basically that I literally want something different every month. I'm all over the place. I, I really just constantly have ideas for new design ideas and stuff like that. And even though, a lot of the product that we still sell, obviously, is the core product, we basically drop a new collection almost every week. Because for me, I mean, I'm bored. Like, I don't necessarily wear the stripes that often. I wear them every once in a while. But like, right now, I'm wearing a full tiger sweatsuit. Like, I like the kind of crazy stuff personally. And I think that that's the only way. I have to assume that you're not no longer the sole designer. You've got other designers now. No, I'm the sole designer. Yeah, so this is interesting to me. When our research are contacted you, you respond to this which you, I'm gonna read what you respond to there. As you said, I personally approve all operational practices, store to core, holiday direct decorations for the stores, window displays, new product displays, all staff goals, bonuses, you'll read nightly closing reports from each location, you'll prove everything down to the tote bag and give away cruises that we hand out with purchases. And obviously, you still design the clothes. So you are, it seems like you're really involved in a lot of things and a lot of things that might maybe over time, you're better off letting go. Sure. The thing is, what I have done over the years is I have built a small team of people that has worked very, very closely with me for like 10 plus years and they know me so well that it's like a super efficient way of making decisions. So like they're able to almost read my mind and bring me like the top three choices, but out of the 20 decisions that I make a day, let's say, you know, on approvals, there's still one or two like pivotal things that I catch that's being done wrong. And sure, there are certain things that I let go of, but I also have this belief that like you really need to keep your eye on things when you're in a period of major growth, which we are still in. When I interviewed your brother, he was still very much involved in Thoms and then of course it was sold and and he's not involved anymore. I mean, what tell me what, how you see that this sort of the future playing out? I mean, you own this company. I'm sure there's been interest in either investing or in potentially even buying out the brand. I mean, the thing is I've had a lot of offers for hundreds and millions of dollars, but I do believe that if somebody comes in and tries to like make my company 10 times the size that it is now, that it won't be a good thing for the brand. I think that at the price point and the customer and what I'm doing, it can't be a brand for everyone. I just feel like why rock the boat? You know, like I don't need more money. Thankfully, like I didn't take on any debt. I was really good to pay back everything. And so I don't want to bring on somebody that I just have to answer to. Just for a lot of money, it's not worth it to me to have an extra 500, 600 million in the bank. So then I have to report to like a group of people. When you think about your journey, I mean, it's been a slow growth for sure. And now you're really emerging as a unknown fashion brand. How much of where you are today do you attribute to your hard work and how much cheating has to do with the luck of people just discovering it? I think that it's really the hard work. I mean, me and my team of people have really done the manual labor. You know, like I didn't do all the things that people do when they have a huge investment allowance. And we did it ourselves. We figured it out ourselves. We made mistakes. We fixed them fast. And I'm a big believer in not spending a lot of money to hire these big people to come in and like blow up your brand with marketing and influencers and all this stuff. Because there's not hard work in that. There's just not. And then you don't feel like you really did it. So it just the feeling of satisfaction I have inside is deeper than just seeing the money that we're bringing in. That's Paige Micosky, founder of Aviator Nation. By the way, according to Paige's mom, Paige and her brother Blake started their respective companies on the very same day in 2006, February 26th, to be exact, which also happens to be Paige's birthday. And here's another connection. Paige actually designed the logo for Blake's company, Tom's. It's a riff on the Argentinian flag with blue and white stripes. And if you haven't heard my interview with Blake about Tom's, go back and check it out. It's another really great story. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And as always, it's free. And if you want to contact us for any reason, our email address is [email protected]. This episode was produced by Alex Chung with music composed by Ramteen Arablui. It was edited by Niva Grant with research help from Ramel Wood. Our audio engineer was Josephine Neonai. Our production staff also includes J.C. Howard, Casey Herman, Sam Paulson, Catherine Cipher, Kerry Thompson, John Isabella, Chris Messini, Carla Estevez, and Malia Aguadello. I'm Guy Raaz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.