Ava Matthews | Co-Founder of Ultra Violette

[Music] Hello and welcome to the Blow Journal podcast. The conversation with the beautiful mind behind the world's biggest beauty brands. I'm your host, BeautyRouterGemmerWats, and in this episode I'm joined by the co-founder of Ultraviolet Ava Matthews. Ava and her ultraviolet co-founder Beck Jefford have been widely credited with making sunscreen sexy. It's no surprise that Ava has become an industry trend setter given her upbringing. Her father was a fashion photographer and her mother a fashion editor, meaning Michael Hutchins was at her third birthday party, and her mother once left one of Ava's summer parties early, as she needed to dress one Kylie Minogue for Madagra. Ava has worked in the beauty industry for upwards of 12 years, both locally and abroad for brands including Mecha Cosmettica and Rational. So she entered into business ownership with a beauty education, the likes of which I don't think I've seen before. 2018 saw the launch of Ultraviolet, an SPF wardrobe that sold out in under 16 hours on launch. Ava's attitude reminds me of DCM's Nicola Killner who I spoke to in episode 29, because these women understand that kindness is the way to lead a business into the future. In this conversation Ava discusses the pros and cons of launching a beauty business with a single category focus. The phone call from Napoleon Perters that brought her all the way back to Australia from New York, and where all not consumers are at long last embracing the sun at safety. Your parents are both creatives, your mum having been a fashion editor and your dad a fashion photographer. Is it safe for me to say that your upbringing would have been a little different to most? Yeah, very safe to say. I mean obviously it felt normal for me at the time, but it wasn't uncommon for me to wake up at 6.30 on a school morning, come outside and there'd be like a whole production crew and Miranda Kerr sitting in my backyard. Oh my god. Or like there's photos of Michael Hutchinson, I think it's my third or fourth birthday. That is the best thing I've ever heard. I know, God. That's all I need. I know. I'm just going to pack up and go. You know what's so funny, this is unrelated, but even as a four-year-old I got his magnetism. I've really attracted to him. There's something about him that you get that feeling in your stomach, even such a young age. He was just, he was pretty spanish. Yeah. Unrelated Michael Hutchinson. Yes, so my parents worked really hard and they worked pretty long hours and they traveled a lot. So we had a lot of nannies around, which it is what it is and my mum was recently divorced. My parents got divorced when I was six. So she kind of had to work as hard as she did and she was also like at that point not even 30. So it was very different childhood, but exciting nonetheless. I'd spend school holidays at Fashion Week and you know get to go to fun parties, but you know on the flip side my parents were absent quite a bit. Right. Are you a bit disillusioned with fashion now? Because I feel like Fashion Week for me is not as exciting as it was when I was 18, but if you were loitering around Fashion Week as an infant, you'd be a bit over it. Yeah. Pretty soon. Yeah, I've never really been sucked into the whole fashion thing. I've never really gotten it and I don't know, I don't think it's cool and I'm, I mean look, it's a great industry and there are amazing people in there and very clever people obviously, but yeah, I kind of, when I worked for Napoleon, he would sponsor a lot of shows. Of course. Yeah. So I'd have to spend quite a bit of time backstage and honestly there was nothing and I'd spend a bit of time sitting front row with him and there was just nothing like I don't get excited about that stuff. I don't think more. Yeah, no, but I never really have. I think probably as you said, it has probably stemmed from being there from such a young age. Yeah, I probably have a bit disillusioned in that way. With your upbringing in mind, what is your very first memory of beauty? I've always been such a beauty girl rather than a fashion girl. I think it was a way of of kind of toe-dipping into that whole industry without having to deal with any of the fashion stuff. Yeah. Side of things. My mom used to honestly, like she had this, this prescriptive, mulberry lipstick and she still like lather on this Revlon concealer. And I remember sitting in the front seat of the car because of course she did all her makeup in the car because she had three kids under six. Yeah. But specifically, I remember my mom, when I was, I don't know, I was sitting 13 or 14. I went into my mom's bedroom to steal, and this is obviously my first memory. It would be weird if I had my first memory at 13. It's just like, but it's a significant one. So I'm going to tell it. I went into a room to steal this Nars lip gloss she wore, and she came home like a couple of days later or she came into a bedroom to look for it a couple of days later and obviously it wasn't there because it was in my bedroom or in my school pocket. And she like lost it. Like it was like, because I would freak, like you go in there, mom had so much stuff in her room. She had so much like jewelry and clothes and beauty and perfume, whatever. And she, I came home from school the next day and there was an electrician drilling like a punch coated lock onto my mom's bedroom door. So you couldn't get into the bedroom without the the coat to her room. She was just so sick of me stealing all her stuff. So that's that's a pretty significant yeah. Pretty memory. But before that lots of and my grandma was really into lots of makeup and she always wore a whole hot pink lipstick and I remember kind of being obsessed with that when I was like four four or five. Yeah, it can relate. The resume of Beauty Brands that you've worked with and you know accounts you've worked on, it reads like a hoos who are beauty. I've got to read it because there's so many SK2 LA Pantene, Esopjelic, Essie, Napoleon, Mecca, Rational all before founding your own brand. Before all of that, what did you think you were going to be when you grew up? I went through like you know when you're 10 and you're like I want to be a criminal lawyer, I want to be a psychologist and I didn't have much to me. Well that was I'm going to be on the stage. Well no, if you asked me at four I sit told everyone I was going to be a star. That's a good answer. I'm still telling people that. Yeah, I know I wish I could still tell people that. I think it's too late for me. Never. Yeah, so yeah I went from wanting to be a star to wanting to be a criminal lawyer or a psychologist and then quickly realized how much work was required to do either at least two or three actually. It does take a lot to be a star. And I think when Sex and City came out so maybe I was like 14 or 15 and I started watching it and I became obsessed with some math joys and so I was like I reckon I could do the best character. Yeah, of course. I reckon I can do what she does. So PR looked kind of interesting to me and I was good at English and I could public speak and kind of was like when this seems like it could work. So I thought I'll just do PR. I didn't ever really think beauty but probably maybe in the back of my mind I did think. So you studied communications at uni. Yeah. Did you start working in PR while you were still studying? Yes. So I remember I don't know I must do any my second year of uni so I would have been 19. And Mum said I've called Gareth so I want a really good family friend of ours. Gary Saunders had a PR agency with Adam Walling the time. He was called Walling Saunders. You had cool family friends. And then so Gary handed the hand of the beauty side and Adam hand of the fashion side. And Mum said I've just spoken to Gary. If you want this interview he's looking for a junior. If you want this interview you have to call him yourself and you know go in and speak to him. Yeah thank you Mum. Yeah and I was like oh because it was a bit scared of Gary. I don't know if anyone's met Gary. He could be quite abrupt and and to a I guess awkward teenager. It's a kind of a little bit intimidating and I was like I don't want to call him. Also just making a phone call on its own is intimidating. As an adult woman I'm like I don't can I just text me. Yeah why you call it yeah unfortunately I don't think you can get a job through texting. No maybe probably not far away from from that point. Apparently a matter of time. We are. Back and I've done some deals through DM Instagram DM so yeah I'm sure not too far from that point. Yeah I had to ring Gary and I was like oh you know can I come in and he was like yes come in so I met with him and with the team and they had like a beauty a junior like a assistant position and so I said look I can give you three days or three and a half days so I started working three and a half days while I was doing uni and then I in my third year of uni I was kind of four and a half almost five so I was was kind of shoving all my classes into half a day. - Yeah. - So effectively I was working pretty much full time in my last kind of two years of uni, doing beauty PR. And that's when I had a lot of exposure to those brands. I didn't kind of spend ages working on SK2 or like Joe Leak or ESOperani of those. Like it was kind of like, so I worked across all of those brands for a couple of years because I was, you know, an account executive or whatever in an agency. - Still to be that age and, you know, being a touch point for those brands is crazy. - Yeah, it was good. Like I felt really lucky at the time. - Were there any lessons that you took from that period that you find you're still applying to your work now? - Yeah, I think you learn at that kind of age and stage that you have to be really proactive and really resourceful. And if, you know, if you're not getting an answer through one door, quickly find out which door you need to go to to get the answer. So I think I kind of, because I was so eager to please, I kind of would just exhaust all options before I came back to someone and was like, "No, I can't do this." Or it needs to be done elsewhere. I think that a sense of resourcefulness that I got at that point that I haven't ever really let, diminish. - Yeah. You spent time working in New York pretty early on in your career. What prompted the move over there? - It's funny, 'cause I always wanted to live in New York and I just thought it was-- - Is that a sex in the city thing as well? - No, I went there, I spent, you know, by the time I was 15, I'd been to New York a few times. So I kind of fell in love with it. And then I went again when I was 19 with friends and we were like, "Oh, this place is just amazing and I kind of thought I'll be back here one day." And then randomly, mum was at a cocktail party and bumped into this woman whose son had just done this program called the Mount Batten Program, Mount Batten Internship Program, which is effectively like an exchange program between New York and London. But for some reason, there's some caveat and the guy who runs the program in Australia is friends with the guy who runs the program in London. So they let a few Australians in. So you have to go through this whole process, you have to apply and, you know, do interviews and get jobs and blah, blah, blah. So a long story short, that's how I ended up going to New York through this program and you study. So I kind of was earning and working towards an MBA at the time, although the studying is pretty, like it's a very insignificant part of the overall experience. - Oh, yes. - But you do have to work. You're working full time, you know, you get put up in like a, you get put up in apartments in the city and you get paid a pretty nominal amount, but you do get paid. And so that's kind of how I ended up, that's how I got my foot in the door to go to New York and I worked for a hedge fund there. Can you believe it? - I know. - I know. I know it's so funny because the guy who's hedge fund it was is one of the saclors who the family's now in heaps of trouble for oxycontin, they're the family that created. - Oh, yeah. - Oh, okay. - Yeah, so it's like, anyway, it was a great experience, but then I decided-- - My dream. (laughs) - I know, I was saying the other day, we should have kept my eyes in ears open to be normal. I was just so hung over most of the time. But then I ended up, after about nine months, I was like kind of sick of this. So I started interviewing for PR jobs and got an account, like a manager account manager role for a small kind of boutique PR agency and then jumped over to the E3 visa, which is really easy if you're, I think it's under 31 or something. - Okay. - Yeah. And then stayed there for another seven or eight months and then came back and Napoleon Pertus was calling. - Yes. (laughs) - While you were still in New York, that boutique PR agency that you were working for, was that beauty accounts that you were? - It was lifestyle. So there was a bit of fitness, they had kind of like a Barry boot camp kind of client. - Yeah. - There was some food and there was a bit of beauty as well. - Having seen how the industry functions over there, what would you say are some of the big differences between the way the beauty lifestyle fitness health, whatever umbrella we wanna put those industries under? What are the differences between the way it works in Australia and the US? - Oh, look, I guess it's just, and look, this was before social media was Facebook, but it was before kind of like the rise of online space. - I miss my space, so I'm still there. (laughs) - I think my space from this pretty short lived. It was just such a bigger base and you're dealing with like, so much more hierarchical, like when I was in Australia, I was dealing with the editors and the deputy editors and then you got to America and you don't, they don't, we got in New York and they don't know you. And it is, they're like, you know, you're like lower on the tone and pull. I'm not dealing with you, I'm dealing with you owner, like the owner of the agency. It's a lot more like, this is your place and you deal with the assistants or you deal with the like junior beauty editors and then like as it's more, where it's a bit more loose in Australia and I think the people were, I think the people in, like I think the industry in Australia is a lot nicer. - Yeah. - And also people did not like, like it's probably now, which is now, it's probably now more like how it is in terms of how you don't call people anymore. (laughs) In New York they were like, if you rang them, they were like, why are you ringing me? Whereas I was just used to picking up the phone to, you know, anyone being like, oh, whatever. And but they'd kind of be like, why are you ringing me? I remember ringing Eva Chen, who's now an, it was a team bug at the time and was it Instagram now? She was really lovely, but she was kind of like, there was a timer on the phone and it was like, you've got 60 seconds. - Oh my God. - And I think I said something that made her laugh. So she was like relaxed, it was, but like it was, it's very, like it's kind of scary. It's a lot scarier than it is here. - It's scary to even hear you like telling that story. - I know, I know. - I know. - My shoulders are everywhere. - Imagine like, and the agency I worked for was hell and the owner of the agency was like, honestly a monster. And I don't talk badly about people that I've worked with. - No, not in your nature, but. - No, it's definitely not my nature, but she, you know, obviously there's a civil lining in her own home. - Mm-hmm. - Yeah, we'll say that. (laughs) - But yeah, she would make me sit on, I would have to call, like get through the entire, she would try and make me call the beauty editors. And there was probably a list of 100 and something at that point, if you consider all the magazines and all the newspapers and blah, blah, blah. She'd make me call them every morning to like pitch the crappy brands that she had. - Oh, girl. - And I would just pretend to call. I would just be like, making dialing motions and be like, hi. Yeah, I just wanted to talk to you about, yeah. Oh, you can't talk, okay, yeah. All right, bye. And I'm like, sorry, she didn't want to talk. But I just was like, I'm not, I'm not making myself any friends here. - Yeah. - They're gonna hate me. I'm this new Australian girl. So I kind of just did it my way and I started taking me to breakfast and I made a few relationships. But it's, and it's really like it's cutthroats, a lot more cutthroat than it is here. - Yeah. - It's like, what press have you gotten? Like what pieces, it's probably like working for Roxy. - Yeah. - I'm gonna be like, you're based on the one episode. - Yeah, based on the one episode of the show. - So you mentioned that call from Napoleon that brought you back to Australia. Talked through it. - So Lucinda Peech who. - Heaven or no? - Yes, heaven, total heaven. Love her so much. She was at the time at Grazia. And then she got convinced by Napoleon. And I think she also saw the plus side and in terms of broadening her career. To come over to be her, his head of comms and strategy. - Yeah. - And she, I think she may have heard that I was having a bit of a rough time. And so she emailed me, I think she emailed me and was like, yes, she did. Oh, there's a PI manager role available. Do you want to talk about, do you want to have a conversation about it? I know you're in New York, you know, you know, you're probably having great time. And I was like, yes. Yes. - Get me out. - Yeah, I was getting me out. And so it kind of just happened from there and then on my way home from New York, I flew to LA to meet with Napoleon in his office in Hollywood. And I'd already gotten the job at that point, but this was kind of like him, you know, casting desire. - Oh my gosh. - Yeah. - And then. - And then. - I wanted to fly into LA then. - Yeah. - Sure. - Yeah, that was such a weird meeting as well. Yeah, my first question was, what was my star sign, which is fine? - Yeah. - And then I had to draw a picture of like what I wanted a house to look like. I think I basically drew the house in Father of the Bride. - Perfect. - Yeah. - I mean, having interviewed him, this does not surprise me. - Yes, of course. - In the slightest. - Yeah, I'm sure you got some pretty similarly wacky questions. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, well, that's what we'll call that. - Yeah. (laughing) - Was that your first in-house role? - Yes. - How did you find that that differed to being with an agency? - I love kind of deep diving and brand. - Mm-hmm. - You know, it's funny, because when I was at the agency, I was working for Gary. So I worked for Gary basically from uni to just before I went to, till I went to New York. - Yeah. - And during that time, I was, you know, obviously I have a great relationship with him, but I was able to kind of craft the role that I wanted for myself in the agency. And I spent most of my time, like I'd say 70, 80% of my time on Mecca. - Yes. - So I kind of saw him in some ways felt like I was in-house. there, but it's not the same because you do have other clients and you can't just completely ignore them as much as you might want to because I'd loved Mecca and they were definitely my favourites. So I kind of felt like I had a bit of experience in that kind of in household except that for the fact that I wasn't in the office in Melbourne I was in Sydney. But you can really, I just love being able to go deep and strategic in a brand and you get exposure to the whole business. So you learning really what's going on and you're learning on like what's driving product sales, you're learning like what stock issues as a result you have to like talk about a different message or talk to a different product or whatever it was or you know when Napoleon would come would be kind of all hands on deck and they'd be like and you know because this was this was during the Napoleon Pertus Hay Day where it was like he was doing all the David Jones Jones shows he was in Bergedorffs in New in America and Nim and Marcus and so this was really like so you kind of got a really great exposure to the whole business which I absolutely love because I ultimately knew that I didn't want to be in PR and I think that's kind of why I loosened it to me on because she knew she'd be able to put me somewhere else which was it was kind of like this unspoken thing that we both had and it was kind of like I'm going to take you on as this and then eventually I'm going to move you into this and that's exactly whatever. Yeah she's so clever woman. She's very clever. So I knew ultimately like having spent you know at that point was what six years or something in PR that I didn't want to do it anymore that I wanted to get out but I knew I had to I couldn't do that in an agency I had to be in house so yeah kind of the reason I went to Napoleon was it's quite strategic in itself in that I knew I'd be able to and that would then lead to other things because I think if you spend too long in PR you're pitching hold it's funny because I haven't done PR like I have actually haven't pitched and I'm saying inverted commas like for what how like I'm gonna say seven years yeah but people still think that I'm my back like that I was just that not just because it's you know that you've got from PR to having brands and I'm like I've done so much stuff between so from there speaking of doors that it opened you moved to Mecca now you've mentioned that you'd already worked on that account and worked pretty much in house there what took you back there um I kind of was at a point in Napoleon where I didn't really feel like I could do anything else I'd moved from PR into comms and strategy and I kind of had toe dipped a little bit into product development and marketing strategy so I'd done a few things and I kind of it was at a point where all the good people were leaving Napoleon yeah and it was becoming an environment I didn't want to be in anymore and I thought okay where am I gonna what are my next moves and to me I was like I want to stay in house I can't really think of any I want to stay in beauty so I'm like Estee Lorde so I was like Estee Lorde okay the other option is and I think again looks into putting in my head there was a job going at Mecca and I saw it and she I was like oh like this would be such a good job of running their own Sydney and she was like well what like what's keeping you here and there wasn't like I mean aside from my amazing family and my incredible friends there wasn't anything else really keeping me in Sydney I thought you know I was like yeah I guess I could move to Melbourne and so the whole process took you know maybe three or four months so I started talking to Mecca and and there are a couple of roles and they were like come out they flew me out to meet with them and you know I met with quite a few people I met with Joe and a whole bunch of other people and I knew a lot of the key players there as well yeah of course dealt with them previously and so I met with a few different heads of departments and it was kind of like where do we put you yeah I there was a marketing while going but they you know they were like it's probably too operational for you where can we put you and in the background there was a whole bunch of stuff happening with the signature line department which is their private label department and which I wasn't aware of and then so I went back a couple of times and ultimately they were like I met with Beck who is now my business partner and my boss and like on paper the the job description for the Mecca Signature Line Brand Manager role is like absurd I remember looking at it being like I cannot do this like this just looks so hard there's all this stuff about numbers like I was you know I was fine at maths at school but like I don't know how I can do this this seems you know like I just I feel like way out of my depth and Lucinda was actually there at the time the pattern she's a guardian angel isn't she yeah she's my very job mother I love that yeah and she was like you can totally do it like I'm seeing you know I am seeing how these these team operates I'm seeing what they actually do there is no doubt in my mind that you can do this so anyway long story short took four months and like looking after the Mecca cosmetic signature line and that's what how it happened you've used the word absurd which seems pretty spot on because I did want to ask you about that role as brand manager because they call it brand manager but looking at it it reads to be a combination of about eight different positions wrapped into one how would you describe as a top level or as you know in depth as you like how would you define what you were doing there well it's it's interesting because it is a brand manager role but it's you can kind of make of it what you want it is effectively a general manager role yeah your you know you're in control of your own the brands P&L you're in control of sales obviously in combination with the store teams in the you know store managers yes you're in control of the product development and the product pipeline you're in control of the marketing the messaging the content you know this not the execution of everything but you know the digital media like you you look there's not one area of that business stock levels that you don't touch so it is a bit of it's a it's a it's a generalist role yeah and you know not many people are good at everything no so most aren't no and so the thing about Mecca at the time is that it was a really great environment and they were very you know receptive to your strengths and especially and Beck was too so you know having she was incredible in terms of like knowing what she was dealing with me and where I was really good up and what I could do to help shine a light on those brands because they were kind of a bit lifeless well the Mecca brand was a bit lifeless yeah it had just launched so there kind of wasn't a huge amount of well from a consumer point of view around that time I certainly wasn't hearing much about it it wasn't until like looking at the timelines when you took over that's when it exploded yeah I mean we saw some really incredible growth but there's so there's so many you know pieces and people involved in all of in in a lot of that but you know so it was kind of it is it's kind of it's a scary role to kind of look at but once you're in there and you chip away it's it's kind of not so bad and you kind of you know obviously I made mistakes we all make mistakes but it was a really great learning a learning ground for me and it really allowed like I don't think that I would be able to do my own brand I don't think I would you know that if it weren't for this role it was really critical it kind of gave you the confidence gave me the confidence in a way to really understand what was involved you mentioned product development in there was this where the sun's green obsession was born I wouldn't really say it's an obsession it's funny because if you told me when I was 26 that I would in you know six years have my own sunscreen brand yeah I would have laughed in the face like I was one of the people that was you know I was really scared of sunscreen I'm like it's gonna make me break out mm-hmm it's gonna make my skin look greasy I certainly didn't wear it I wore it to the beach and I wore it on holidays but I certainly didn't make it a part of my daily kind of routine yeah either I would have you know the S over alarm the SPF in my foundation which is we all know you can't do yeah I'm not gonna get angry because obviously you don't do that now I don't do that I still have friends that do it oh me too I just got off the phone from a friend who's like who'd spent 40 minutes sun baking on a roof top without any sunscreen I feel morbidly ill I know I know I know she was like why is this bad I'm like I don't even have the time I've got to go but I'll bring you back for an hour like pencil me in for an hour and later this afternoon I'll tell you all the reasons why but yeah no that's where I guess my interest and understanding of sunscreen started but it definitely was an obsession at that point not the very beginning but I but I started kind of realizing that I needed to wear it were you a part of developing the signature line SPFs? yes yeah Joe Hogan actually developed the first one herself that was like I think it was that was 15 years ago I think to say face 30 yeah and there hadn't really been much going on since that since that point and the reason that you know their sunscreen categories are so big is because you can't like it's really hard to get an international sunscreen brand into Australia so there was they they you know a lot of their skincare brands would have sunscreens but there's they couldn't you know they'd go from an SPF 50 in America to a you know slapping an SPF 15 label on it because it didn't make out criteria you've mentioned back yes so you met back while you're at Maca did having an earth Kevin. Um, I understand that it was at mecha that you guys sort of started to have ideas. I, this is the way that I look at this. I feel like it's one thing to have a colleague that you really like working with, but for that relationship to be strong enough to be like, we're going to go into business together is another thing entirely. So at what point with the two of you like, okay, this is more than your average working relationship? I don't, I've always been like, back and I, we probably had six months at the beginning where we were like, just, we needed to understand each other or maybe, no, not even six, I'm going to say three where I was like, I don't think back like so. We were like, oh, you know, like, um, and I think once we kind of got to that point of being able to understand each other. And we're very different people like we're not really, you kind of need that in business. Yeah, you really do. We obviously align and we are values, you know, more or less exact, you know, the same, but we're very different people. So it did take a little bit of time and it was an adjustment until we kind of got each other. But once we were there, I just kind of love her. I think it was like one night we went out for drinks and I was like, I was kind of like, oh, this is me so boring. Like, the next can have one sit on one wine for three hours. Like one hour later, we'll probably throw our first bottle, not to say, this is an hour while our meetings were. This is a safe space. Yeah. I think it was like a team bonding thing and I was like, oh my god. Like she, there's obviously so many more layers to her than I've, than I've actually realized. So, um, I think for both of us. So we kind of had a really great working relationship from the, you know, more or less to get go. And, um, and then I kind of like we were kind of having a conversation about like, we're doing this for someone else. If only we could, you know, think of something that we could do for ourselves. And then we kind of just, the idea just kind of came to and she was at first, um, there was another person involved at that time who was no longer involved and who's not, um, obviously a part of the business. Um, but the two of us, not we're going to back and we're like, come on. Like this is amazing. Yeah. Like, um, we could do this. And then, and then, um, back was kind of like, what are you guys like? What, what are you guys smoking? Like I've got two kids, my husbands, you know, about to, um, he was running his own business and he was, I think he was at that point, um, about to get a new job or something. And she was just like, nah, it's too hot. Like this is just not yet too risky. Like I just, nah, go away. Let me look. And then I was a bit more and I was like, assistant and I was like, no, I think like let's, let's just do the, we were like, let's just do a business plan. Yeah. Let's spend six months stress, stress testing this idea. And in February, this is a, in July, oh, June was in June 2016. In July, in February, if we're like, if we've, you know, thrown this idea around, we've showed it to a couple of people who are really smart, whose opinions we trust and they go, nah, then we'll abandon ship. And we've, you know, we've done a business plan, we've spent some time, you know, hanging out on the weekends, brainstorming what this could be. It's been fun. But if it's, you know, at that point, it's not really going anywhere. And we don't think that there's anything in this. Let's just, you know, jump ship. Yeah. And we got to, I think, January and I think some things changing and that kind of was like, yeah, if this, let's do it. Like she was speaking, the champion and was like, you know, I think this is a really great. I think there's something, 100%. I, something, there's something in this. And I think we should do it. So she left mecha shortly thereafter. I left mecha and it was kind of on. In between mecha and launching ultraviolet, you spent a little bit of time at rationale. Yes. How did that role prepare you for what was to come? Rationals, it was a very different role because I went from mecha where I was like, really high energy and, like, you were doing a million things at once, whereas rationales are a lot, you know, the brand. The second you walk in the door of that office, it's, you know, it's very considered. Yes. It's a lot more serious. There's a lot more protection over the brand. Yeah. Whereas at mecha, like the brand was faceless, it was nameless. Yeah. It was kind of an extension of Joe, but not really. So you could kind of have a bit more fun with the mecha brand and you kind of had, like, I felt like it was my brand kind of at the time. Like I felt a lot of ownership over it. Whereas you come into rationale and Richard sitting in, you know, in the room next door and you're like, you're very clear. It's not your brand. It's his brand. Yeah. And he's super protective. So I think, you know, I learned the fact that they've got a lab downstairs and they have a team of chemists and scientists like you and Richard is incredibly knowledgeable about skin. Oh, the man's a genius. He's an absolute genius. There is, he's just, there's no one like him. He's incredible. So I, I learned a lot about the skin. I learned a lot about the impacts of the sun on the skin because they, you know, that's something they're really communicating. Essentials six is basically reversing the damage and protecting the skin. You can go back and listen to episode two of this podcast. Yes. And I kind of also learnt the importance of keeping your brand really protected from him because he's, you know, of course, there's been deviations to things, but you know, they've had a really, you know, laser focus on their brands since day dot. Oh, Triviolet. Let's do it. What was the gap that you were looking to fill? Look, you know, as I've said, we worked on sunscreen brands for sunscreen products for other brands. You know, there are a lot of good sunscreens out there. I'm not, we weren't coming in to be like, you know, there's the whole market's shit and we're like, we're coming to save you all. We kind of, it was a kind of a combination of like, we saw the opportunity at Mecca. Yeah. And we just saw it like, first of all, someone needs to breathe a bit of life into this category. It's something we need to be wearing every day. People hate wearing it. It's kind of, you know, people are told to wear it like from mums and doctors and whoever else is, or gemwats. Yeah. Yeah. Me yelling at people. Yeah. I mean, in Thailand literally smacking bottles of like carotene out of my friend's hands. Yeah, totally. Put in jail. Yeah. sunscreen jail. Which means you're inside wearing a laver did SPS 50. Absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, people, people just don't like wearing it, but they know they have to. So what's wrong with this, with this category? And we looked at, there was nothing that looked beautiful, that felt really beautiful, that kind of was really considered, you know, a lot of sunscreens are functional. Yeah. They are created to protect your skin from the sun. And it's something you have to wear every day. It's something you have to wear over your skincare and under your makeup. So, why are people not putting more like, I guess, due diligence into how it's made? So we were kind of like, look, we want them to be, we want them to feel like skincare. One of them to talk to you like you, someone you could relate to that wasn't, you know, yelling at you like, you were going to get cancer and, I mean, all of those things are really important. But it was kind of like that white coat kind of thing where there was nothing that was fun. I think Kate Morris, who is the adore owner, well, not really anymore, but anyway. Yeah. Found her. Yeah. Sorry. That was the word. Yeah. She said in an interview that we'd made sunscreen sexy. And like when I read that, I was kind of like, we've kind of like, that's that's what we wanted. Yeah. That's what we wanted without really articulating it in that way. Because that's not what we said we were going to set out to do. We just thought we need to make a sunscreen that doesn't peel under your makeup that wears nicely isn't too heavy to wear over the, you know, in my case, three serums oil and moisturiser that I wear before sunscreen. Oh, yeah. I'm making a whole cocktail dunking my head in it and then being like cooled. Now we just sort of blast this with the hairdryer and then the sunscreen will go on. Yeah, absolutely. So it was kind of a combination of all those things without really set, like without us, you know, we weren't shitting on the market and something like it was crap. We were just saying something needs to, someone needs to do better. Yeah. And also there was nothing there was like a huge boardrobe of options. So yes, you know, there wasn't, there was like one, you know, a skincare brand would have like one sunscreen. And if that didn't suit your skin, you had to go to another other, another skincare brand or you had to buy it elsewhere or, you know, for whatever reason. So yeah, that's that's kind of why we created it. So you had the idea then where do you go from there? I know you had a business plan already, but how did you develop the products, find a chemist, name packaging marketing, there's a lot to it. Yes, so much. So we figured out how much money we needed. Yeah. That was obviously a part of the business plan kind of thing. And then we knew which chemists, well, we'd already obviously, worked in product development. So we kind of had an idea of where we were to go in terms of chemists and labs, etc. And then we kind of went through a process where we went to pretty much all the the good ones. And we're like, let's see what you can do for us. And then we kind of that took quite a while because we were like, gnawing it down from, you know, five to two to one. And then So we started formulating, we were kind of getting constant feedback from friends and family as we were going. Yes. And packaging, so the kind of the hardest bit is obviously product, especially when you're doing those sunscreens, you've got to do all the testing and the registration and all of that. So that kind of part took about 18 months. Okay. And then the packaging, again with the packaging suppliers, we'd worked with a lot of them. In fact, actually the packaging supplier ended up going with we hadn't worked with before, we had dealt with. We'd never actually done anything with them, but we kind of liked how they operated. And they had really beautiful packaging and it was all out of Korea. So it wasn't, you know, it was a really good quality, really bloody slow but really good. So we kind of, we took a while figuring out what we wanted to look like because we're calling them skin screens, a combination of skincare and sunscreen. So they kind of needed to not look like other sunscreens. That's kind of why we got the glass dropper and the nice airless tubes. And then the design, we kind of went to a contact I had in Sydney and there was a bit of a, you know, the first couple of rounds are like, "Hmm, you're kind of getting on the same page. Luckily they knew me." So they kind of had an understanding of what I wanted when I was like-- Oh, it's very, very important. I was like, "I'm thinking like Eveclimb Blue with like neon's and like, and they were like, right, okay, let's do." And then they came back with like the third round and I was like, "Yup, nail that, this is amazing." So that didn't take as long, like I know that can probably take a lot longer. Yes, but I had a, like we had a pretty good idea of what we wanted and I was kind of like, I had this vision in my head of what I wanted and as soon as it like matched, you know? But the other thing is like the, like what people don't understand with sunscreens, the finished artwork takes so long. And when I mean finished artwork, it's like what you actually put on the bottle or the tube or whatever. Of course. And because you, there are so many like letters have to be, because it's a TGA product, things have to be a certain size. So the millage, like the 50 mills has to be a certain size and then the letters of different things have to be certain size. So it's like really, and you have to say certain things and you can't make certain claims because it's the TGA listed product. So that stuff took like two months and it's so, it's like painstakingly detailed stuff. And I'm so not a detailed person. So I was like, "I hate this so much right now. I hate it." I hate it. And so at that point we were kind of like, "Hey, we're going to be launching in probably in December." So I left rationale and I spent, you know, a month and a half kind of getting the website ready to go and we just used Shopify. So that's often the way to do it now. It's so good and we had it someone do a custom template for us. Yeah, amazing. So like Shopify is just amazing. I don't know, you don't need to go anywhere else. Like people who have started their business don't make it complicated. Just go to Shopify and if there's nothing on there you won't get those agencies that can do quite cheaply, like a bit of a custom finish for you. Sound advice. Yeah. And then we were kind of ready to roll in December. We really want like the initial launch date was like October I think, but there was no air we were going to make that. And we thought, "Look, if we can at least get something quickly before Christmas, even if it's just friends and family because we had so many friends being like, "When can we buy it? When can we buy it?" And we had nothing for them. So we were like, "Okay, we'll just get, like we had some press samples." And we were like, "Let's just sell those for a hundred." They were like the finished product and everything, but we'll sell them and do a little pack and see how that works. There's a good test for us as well. And literally in like, I think it was like, "God, I can't remember." 16 hours. 16 hours. Yeah, that would be right. 16 hours. They'd all gone. That's unbelievable. I know. And we honestly just thought we might sell heart. Like we might sell, we might sell maybe like 50 if we're lucky. But there was a lot more than that and we were like, "Holy hell." Like when we started seeing names that weren't people that we recognised, that's when we were like, "Oh my god, this is real." Like people have actually heard about this. Amazing. Yeah. It was great. So you've used the word wardrobe, which I love. It's a wardrobe of SPF. Which product did you in bet conceptualize first? That's a really good question. I think it was probably Queen's Green. Yeah. My personal fav. Yeah. I think it was Queen's Green. Because we had like basically on the page, on the business plan, document, we had like illustrations of what it would be. Or it was kind of like the hydrating one, the like the mattifying one. There was like a few more on there, like originally we couldn't afford to do everything we wanted to do at first. But then there was like, I can't remember what the Queen, the Queen's Green was. But it was like, they were all like, there was like kind of written in functional language. It was like, this does that. So we kind of like mapped them out. But we didn't really know exactly what was going to be in them or how they would take shape at that point. I think for what we ended up doing, I think Queen was the first that nailed it really. So as it stands, there's the three facial sunscreens and an SPF for lips. Yes. Intouchades. Can you talk me through the products and how do we choose which one is best for us? So we just mentioned Queen's Green. So that one is kind of our hero. It really kind of, really lightweight. It kind of goes on invisible, pretty much. Like it doesn't leave, it kind of rubs into nothing. It's quite liquidy, so it's kind of, you put it on with a dropper. And it's in a really beautiful glass bottle. So it feels like really nice. It doesn't feel like a daggy sunscreen. You're a barrier of smile off. Yeah, it sits very, very proudly in your bathroom. And it does leave a bit of a glow on the skin. If you're not into lowly off your slightly oily, probably steer away from that. It's also got vitamin C and other antioxidants. So it's like really good for the skin and hydrating ingredients as well that make, that really nourish the skin. So it's kind of, you want Queen's Green if you like glow. If you're kind of dry, maybe slightly mature, slash normal skin. I actually, there are actually a lot of, I read every single reviewer, every single thing that's written about ultraviolet. That's existing on the internet. I read it. Like going deep into Reddit forums. Reddit is terrifying. It's terrifying. I get, like, honestly, whenever I Google ultraviolet Reddit, and I'm like, please be nothing new on there. Please be nothing new in there. I looked at my own name on there. Oh my god, don't, that is brave. Most of it was, there's not a lot of stuff, but there was one thing I've just made this about me. I was doing a Q&A with someone international and the question, the Reddit thing was like, who the fuck is Gemma Watts? One of my girlfriend's still just out of the blue. I'll just get a message from her saying, who the fuck is Gemma Watts? So that's good. Yeah, so you read everything on the internet. Yeah, I read everything. So the point to that was the fact that a lot of people with oily skin actually do say they like it, which is me. I kind of didn't think that they would go there. So I think, yeah, it's a really beautiful finish. Like, if you're kind of darker skinned, it is one of those ones that does not leave any kind of hint of a white cast. Yeah, good. So that's, and that's also my favorite. And then we've got Supreme Screen. Sorry, I should have mentioned Queen Screen is 50 plus and it's a chemical screen. Yes. Supreme Screen is also 50 plus and a chemical screen. And that's kind of like your all-rounder. Like, it's a lot of people use it as a moisturizer in the morning. Yeah. They just kind of replace their moisturizer with an SBF 50. A hydrating one. And it also makes a really good primer. So that is the kind, like, that's the one if people like, I'm not sure which one to get. I'm concerned that Queen Screen might leave, like, might make me look too oily or too glowy or whatever. I'm like, just go for a supreme. It's like kind of a no-brainer. Again, it's got really beautiful hydrating ingredients. Is that the cat? Yes. We've got a visitor. Oh, she's been hiding because the cleaners have been here. She's calm. Hi, Minksie. I wish there was a visual component to the pod. She's very beautiful. I'm allergic for it. Oh, yeah. This seems like an odd choice of pet. Oh, it's not my attitude. It's my partners. Yep, so we've got. It's a free screen. And then we've got Clean Screen, which is our mineral. It's zinc-only. It's only a 30. People ask a lot why we don't have a 50. And at the end of the day, we wanted to make a sunscreen that you wanted to wear every day. And I've seen some of the 50+ zincs that are really not nice. No. They're greasy, they're thick. It's crooked as style. Yeah. So we thought, let's just have a physical offer while we're nailing out mineral. Yeah. So it's a really. People love it. It's kind of more mattifying than the other. It's oily or if you've got any skin sensitivity or information acne, it's really great. Again, it's got organic green tea and cucumber extracts. And it's not a super heavy zinc. It's kind of light and almost moosey. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and then the lip balm. I always forget about the lip balms. That's very deep. - You know, two lip balms peach and nude, their SPF 30, and just super like Lanolin based. - Yeah, they're amazing. - Yeah, if you're allergic to Lanolin, or looking for a vegan option, they're not for you. The other, the facial sunscreens are vegan. - Lanolin is my favorite lip. - Yeah, me too. - And for again, me too. - Me too. It's amazing. And then just kind of really like wearable, flattering shades, but they don't really leave much for hint of anything. They just leave a hint, they don't leave much color. - Yeah, they are beautiful. You touched on the TJA and the hoops that one has to jump through. Those sorts of challenges aside, how, or did you find any challenges moving from really structured workplaces where there's roles and responsibilities to self-employment? - Yeah, I did it first. I was like, what the hell am I doing every day? I remember like a week after I left rationale, I went, I should go for a walk, so I went for a walk around the town. I remember like crying, like just tears streaming down my face. - I mean, you're not running a startup if you haven't gone to the mall. - No, I know. - I was like crying. - But I was like, what am I doing? Like I feel kind of useless. Like I don't know if I've done the right thing. Like, you know, all my friends were like going to their office Christmas parties. And it was just like, I was just like, oh no, what a-- - That is the office Christmas party. That is the worst part. I can say that from experience. - Not getting to go in with them. I know, you can come to ours. We're doing a much bigger one this year. - There we go. - When I say bigger, bigger than two people. - Yeah. - Well, it's just me and you see it. - Yeah, yeah, just the old post guy. - I know, I know the guy that delivers you now. I live with you. - Yeah. - Your barista. - Yes. - Oh, we've got a coffee machine at home. - Oh, there you go. You don't even get that kind of thing. - Yeah. - It is hard doing your base up. - So yeah, I mean, look, I missed obviously having people to do stuff for me. When you've got your own business, you have to do everything. Like you can't do that. Oh, can you just take that? No, you have to take that. Can you pack that for no? I have to pack that. So it's like there's no one. You have to do every job, whether it's a strategy for a retailer, something as big as that, or like five-year plan, she was manial as taking, you know, influencers send out to the post office. - Yeah. - So that kind of is a bit of adjustment 'cause I am used to having a team and I'm used to having people to help me with things and kind of do a lot of the admin. And I've done that kind of stuff for a while. So kind of getting your head back in that space. - It's a different muscle. - Yeah, it's a completely different muscle. And it can be, you know, it's quite lonely as you would know sometimes. You know, obviously I've got Beck. We don't work physically together in an office yet. So we work separately from our own homes, but we do spend a lot of time at coffee shops or bars or wherever it might be. And obviously most meetings we go to together. So yeah, kind of going from that kind of big environment where you've got teams and people and support people and you know, you've got someone to do. Stop count for you and you have to do, from doing that all by yourself is pretty confronting. And also I guess some kind of figuring out to retain that, that took me six months to figure out like how, like what was the most productive way of me. So I now realize I have to get out of bed. You know, I like being out to spend a bit more time in bed. I'm not gonna lie. So some, you know, some, if you're getting an email from me before nine o'clock, it's probably been written in bed. But I, you realize like kind of what you need. So I need to like do some sort of exercise. Then I kind of can't start my day. And that's when I kind of switch in. - Yeah. But it takes a while to figure it out. You don't, it's a really, it is a much bigger adjustment than you think that you're than I expected. - I agree with that. We've spoken previously on this podcast to brand founders that have just launched with one product and obviously their advantages and disadvantages that come with that. You are a bit different in that you haven't launched with just one product, but it is a single category. So what would you say are the advantages and disadvantages of having such a singular focus as a brand? - It's a really good question. I think it allows you to have a real, like a laser focus on product development and also on like your kind of messaging and comms. I like, I like kind of the fact that we're a single category brand. And we will launch products that probably cross over, but there'll always be the SPF message behind them. - Yeah. - So I think it's good because people know, people aren't brand, they're brand loyal, but they're not like multi product brand loyal. People will buy, they're blush around glass, they're tinted moisturizer from bare minerals. So I think being able to be like a highlight brand that people can go to for sunscreen is a good thing. I think a disadvantage is sometimes you, like how much more can I say? - Yeah. - And I think that, I feel that with five products, so I don't know how people with one product feel, but sometimes I'm like, am I boring people? - You're not, but I know what you mean. - Yeah, so that can kind of be a real disadvantage, but I think it's mostly advantageous for us because people are like, okay, you guys are my SPF brand or in a retailer, we might be the SPF brand. So I think in kind of depending on where the context, it can be a real advantage because you can be the brand that people go to. And because we've got enough options, and we're also working on bringing out more that at some point in the near future, there should be literally something for everyone in our range. - So you have been picked up by a door beauty, Kate Morris saying, you've made SPF sexy, which I would agree with. How has working with a retailer, still a digitally native one, but a retailer nonetheless? How has that changed the way that the business operates? - I guess we have to have a bit more structure around how we do things. To be honest, a door beauty is so amazing. They're so collaborative. We just love working with them. They're so flexible, like they're so understanding, especially I think going from being a small brand to a Sephora USA or even MECA would be a pretty scary thing. And even though we have retail experience and we both work at MECA, and on the brand side I worked for Napoleon, who was in DJ's and a whole bunch of other retailers. So I kind of have an understanding of it, and Beck does obviously as well. So we kind of knew what we were getting ourselves into with any retailer, but we kind of thought, we actually thought we were going to keep the brand to ourselves for a lot longer than we did. We thought that we would have ultraviolet just on our own online channel for 12 months, but it ended up being I think four months and then or not even we launched at the end of Jan and then by April we were in a door. - Amazing. - And we just thought there is nothing that, like it couldn't do any harm to us. - Yeah. - Like a door are really amazing. They're amazing operators. They've got an amazing business. They're really known for skin. - Yes. - And they're really trusted for skin care. So we thought there's literally no harm that could come from this. So it did change in terms of we have to be more organized and we have to come to them with Christmas sets and in terms of that way of thinking, we can't just decide to run a promo with them and on the day before. So you can't be as, I guess, nimble, but it's not necessarily being in physical doors. So it's kind of a really good, it's a great way to jump into the retail environment from going to a retail like a door to maybe something that's a bit bigger and has more physical locations. - You've worked in the beauty industry locally and internationally for, if my research serves upwards of 12 years now. - Yeah. - What are some of the biggest changes you've seen within the beauty industry in that time? - Obviously the rise of online and the decline of the department store. And I guess the way people shop, that's completely changed. And when I was at Napoleon, David Jones in my rule, everything, they were kind of not dictators at all, but they were kind of the ones that we were trying to impress all the time to take more stock. And now it's like, it's not like that at all. - Not in my slightest. But I think there's another shift in terms of, I think it's kind of a provenance thing. And people, I remember when I was younger, like Australian brands almost seemed to be daggy. - Yeah. - And no people, you kind of had to prove yourself as an Australian brand by going international. And that kind of like international retailer was your stamp of approval to come back to Australia and be like, guys look, I've made it. Like you can now, you know, shop for me. But I think it's really different now, like people want to shop local. And that's not just cross beauty, that's across fashion and food and whatever. - Yeah. - But I think there's a lot more pride, I think in Australian brands. And it's really nice to see that, you know, the consumer is more receptive to and a supportive of small Australian brands. So I think that's been really amazing for us and I've definitely seen that whole kind of cultural cringe thing that was kind of prevalent in the industry has somewhat kind of reversed and people are really proud. What's because we don't have a gum tray on the front of all of the packaging now? Well exactly and I think that's probably. What's all? Yeah, I think the marketing and the, you know, I still like roll my eyes at, I'd be like, oh my god, here we go another product with cacadoo plumber now. We've actually got cacadoo plumber now. It's a great ingredient. Yeah, it is. It's going to be a very high in vitamin C. So I think there's a couple of things. That whole Australian thing, I'm really embracing and there's been a slew of brands that have opened that door for us, you know, Atlanta Lips and Frank and go to. But obviously, the other thing that I've seen is that I guess people are simplifying their routines a lot more and they're kind of, there's been that whole shift from like having a million products to having just a handful of, you know, really good quality products with really good ingredients that are actually helping your skin. Yeah. The other thing that's been really beneficial for us has been the rise of skincare. I was at Mecca when the colour boom was happening and people could not get enough of two days of open decay and it's funny because it's completely shifted and skincare. Yeah. And people are now focusing on what, focusing on fixing the skin up and just masking it in, you know, really full coverage foundations. Yeah. So I mean, there's a lot of, there's so many things in terms of how the industry has changed. But I guess they're just a few. Just a handful. Just a handful. So that's how the industry has changed. What do you think we can expect to say from the future of the beauty industry? Oh man, if I knew that, I'd probably, I'd be launching another brand. People are using more sunscreen, hopefully. Well, yeah. Look, I think the focus on skin will only get bigger and be stronger and I hope that SPF is a part of that kind of conversation. I assume it will be. You know, the consumer is getting savvy. People will know what's in their products. You know, people are really funny about fragrance. Yes. And, you know, some people love it, some people hate it. You can't really win and fragrance is one of those things where like people, for example, people hate don't really like the fragrance of our cleansed green. It's pretty nothing. It's kind of like cucumber. It's kind of an, it's a natural fragrance. It's pretty. I'm so immune to scent. It just doesn't. And it's very low level. Yeah. But people really hate it. But we tested it without fragrance and people absolutely hated it. Like where to the point it was impacting their opinion on the overall products. I don't know where I'm going with this, actually. Future of beauty and people care about what's in their products. Yeah. And people are googling and there's, I mean, look, there's a lot of misinformation out there. I think people, when you're kind of googling stuff, you're reading maybe from other forums where that person may not be super educated or might be saying, like, we get so many questions like, oh, can I wear chemical skin sunscreen when I'm pregnant. I've been told I can't. And I'm like, did your doctor tell you this or, and like, no, I just read it on it. It was on YouTube. Yeah, I like it too. I like, well, just always check with your doctor. Yeah. You know, just I don't, I can't, I don't really know. I'm going with this. The future of beauty. Maybe we should start this question. No, no, I actually feel free to tell me that I've, you know, misread. But I think, personally, I think the future of beauty is that we have all this access to information now, but we also have as much access to the wrong stuff. 100%. So hopefully that is all streamlined and what we have access to in future. And you know, a lot of brands are actually propagating this, you know, there's people talking about releasing sunscreen that is a zinc, for example, a zinc sunscreen. They're saying there's no chemicals in it. It's like, well, new slash. Everything's a chemical. New slash everyone. Water is a chemical. Yeah. Think is not, they're not getting out of the ground and crushing it up and putting it into a big tub to put into your sunscreen. Like, it's actually, it's a chemical, it's a lab-made product. Yep. So I'm kind of hoping that a lot of, like, that people kind of reeducate themselves in a way. And you know, there's the, whatever that, the six, the bad six, whatever it is. And I've seen like a nasty nine. It's like, oh, we've got to stop, you know, kind of bombing gradients and like, it's trying to scare people into shopping and alternative. That's. Yeah. And it's not a good marketing tactic. It's actually, it's not, I don't know, I just, I would never, I just feel like there's a lot of so much information out there and I hope that people, in a way, it's like, maybe the rise, maybe people should be shopping more online because then at least they're getting, you know, or shopping via their dermatologist or whatever it is. So at least they're getting an educated opinion and point of view. Yeah. But I don't think, I don't think that that whole kind of skincare phase going anywhere. I don't necessarily think it's a trend. I don't, I honestly don't think that that kind of local shopping in verticals is a trend either. I think that hopefully, you know, brands, like I mentioned before, will open the door for more Australian brands. And I think that's such a great thing where, you know, it's just, where it's a borderless market. So, yeah. If you've got an idea and you've got the means to make it happen and there's a hole in the market for it, like it's, it's, it's great. It's good. It's a good thing. My final question. What is next for ultraviolet? Ooh. See, I always like say world domination and becs like you've got to stop saying that. Like it's, like it's saying it. Well, yeah. We are looking at international retailers and we're talking to a few. So that's very exciting. We're also talking to a physical retailer. So at some point, soonish, we might be in available in stores because that is the number one question that we get asked is, how can I try you in store? Right. Because people are scared about buying sunscreens online because they've been burnt, like, literally burnt and, you know, in the past. So I totally get it and, you know, we'd love to be available everywhere. But we're still, we can't grow too fast otherwise we'll shoot ourselves in the foot. We're working on some really great products as well. You know, we've got a body sunscreen coming out in probably Jan. But aside from that, we've got some other great products in the pipeline that have been historically very tricky to make. So we're kind of just taking our time with it. Don't want to launch something that ends up, you know, that people end up hating whatever reason. So there's a lot. It's going to be a busy summer. That's for sure. That was Ava Matthews. I've found a ultraviolet which you can find on Instagram @ultravioletAU. To read my interview with Ava, you can visit glowjournal.com. And the more beauty news you can find on me on Instagram @gemcarewats or @glow.general. If you liked this episode, please do not forget to subscribe, rate, review and share so other beauty and business lovers can find us. I'm Gemma Watts. Thank you for listening to the glowjournal podcast and thank you for joining me.