Authenticity and Cultural Recognition with Brenda Yang

(upbeat music) - You are listening to Grinch Fridge, a podcast by the More Grinch Center for Public Service at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Grinch Fridge is a podcast that holds food for thought and is dedicated to connecting community, campus, and student voices that cultivate a thriving democratic society. Welcome back, everyone, or hello if you're listening in for the very first time. With the academic year in full swing, I couldn't think of a better time to spotlight another one of the wonderful pillars of our campus, Brenda Yang. In this episode, we'll explore concepts related to what it means to be a first-generation college student, equitability in the classroom, and the importance of authenticity, cultural recognition, and diversity. So bundle up, sip some hot chocolate, and learn more about one of those core members of our very own UW-Madison community. Today, I have the pleasure of chatting with Brenda Yang, Assistant Director of Career Communities at SuccessWorks within the University of Wisconsin-Madison. She also holds a position at the Dane County Board Supervisor for District 19, working on legislation that works to increase access, as well as language support for non-English-speaking communities within the Madison area. Brenda Yang, welcome to the Grinch fridge. - Thank you. - Awesome. So just to kick off, I'm gonna ask you a couple of fun questions. You mentioned that you were a singer, so if you don't mind, before we jump in, just tell me a little bit about maybe your favorite band, or your favorite genre of music to listen to. - Wow, that's a tough question. (laughing) You know, it's interesting because I grew up in a very evangelical Christian world, and so I wasn't really allowed to listen to what you would call secular music much. But in times when I was a little defiant in the '90s, I grew up in the '90s, so any '90s music, R&B music, that's kind of my jam, but also recently just, you know, I have a daughter, so like I try to stay kind of, I don't know, trendy or hip in what she wants to listen to, so anything that's in that as well, too, and learning and diversifying my collection of music that I listen to. I just finished watching the K-pop Demon Slayers, is that what it's called? - Okay, let's go back. (laughing) - And I just thought, wow, these songs are really, you know, like catchy and clicky, you know, and so I've been kind of listening to the song "Golden" a little bit on repeat. (laughing) - I also read, Brenda, that you love to binge watch TV. Is there any TV show in particular? - My partner and I, that's like our favorite pastime. When I retire, that's pretty much all I want to do is binge watch stuff with my partner. (laughing) - I love that. - And so we just finished watching a series called "The Girlfriend," which is very interesting and a little bit disturbing, but it was kind of very riveting. So I kind of like stories that are like murder mysteries, thrillers a little bit with that. We also finished watching "House of Guinness," which was really interesting as well. It's like a historical biopic of the Guinness family in Ireland, so that was interesting. But yeah, binge watching stuff is kind of, yeah, my favorite pastime for sure. - I agree, I'm the same way. I love a new show. I love just sitting down and watching it all the way through. So I'm glad you agree. So just to kick us off with some of our more deep questions, I was wondering if you could give me a little bit of background about you and maybe your start here at UW Madison. - Sure, my name is Brenda Nuiya. That's my full name and I am Hmong. And so I just want to say a quick shout out to Hmong Southeast Asian communities that this year marks the 50th anniversary of the Hmong and Southeast Asian migration to the United States. As 50 years ago was when Saigon fell. And Hmong and Southeast Asians migrated to the States as a result of the Vietnam War and our involvement in being allies to the United States. And so as a result of this, we became refugees because we were targeted by the Patet Lao for extinction and genocide. So it's crazy to think that it's only been 50 years, but also crazy because the fall of Saigon happened like only five years before I was born. And so I know my age is showing a little bit, but a little bit of my background and history is I was born in Lao, Lak 52, and that is located in the province of Vien Tien. After I was born, we lived in the jungles for about a year. And there's a term that in the Hmong culture we call living in the jungles, we call that (speaking in foreign language) and I didn't really know what that was, but because my father was involved in the Vietnam War and because he fought for American GIs, we were targeted as a result of that. So we had to go and live in the jungles. And then after that, we crossed the Mekong River to escape the Patet Lao and then entered Thai refugee camps and lived in Thailand. And then after that, we were sponsored to come to the States when I was about three. I have a very big family, 13 brothers and sisters from the same parent. (laughs) And I'm the fourth child and the oldest daughter. I have a brother that passed away in Lao. And so sometimes when my siblings are listening to this, they'll be like, well, we only have 12, but actually we have 13 because one brother passed away and most of us actually have never met him. But when we came to the States, we landed in San Francisco. And then I don't know why my dad chose to go all the way from San Francisco to Rhode Island, but then we moved all the way from the West Coast to the East Coast. And then we lived in Rhode Island for about a year. And then he decided that they wanna go back to the West Coast and then we moved all the way on a Greyhound bus to the West Coast again. And we lived in Sacramento for a couple of years. And then after that, they wanted to live in a more rural place. And so they moved to a very rural place called Yuba City, which is like about an hour away from Sacramento, northern part of California. And then after that, they moved to Marysville. And that's the place where my parents and most of my siblings still live to this day. And then about 25 years ago, I moved here to Dane County and I live in some prayer. And as for my time at UW, I've been here about two years. This is my third year. And my official title is Assistant Director of Career Communities at Sussex Works. And that's the Career Services Department in the College of Letters and Sciences. And I oversee the career communities in STEM. And that means I oversee students who need support in tech data analytics majors or scientific research and development or environment and conservation sustainability and healthcare and wellbeing. And I support students who are interested in those careers and also specialists who support students in those as well. - Sounds like a wide variety of departments you get to work with, which must be exciting. - It is very exciting. Campus is very decentralized 'cause it's such a large campus, but because of the work that we do encompasses so many of those different departments that it takes a lot of holistic support services to kind of provide niche support for students. So I love partnering with different departments to provide that. - How many students on average do you work with or is it anybody that's interested? - Well, we have about, I believe close to 20,000 students in LNS. - Sure. - That's like the bulk of the students here at UW. So as you can see, we serve a lot of students and a lot of students come and see us are primarily in the tech data and analytics realm. So we do see a lot of students in there, but I do a lot of general advising and we have a lot of asynchronous materials on our website. So if anybody is in need of support for asynchronous tools, whether you're an LNS student or not, you can always utilize our support services on our website 'cause it's very in depth. So I would say I'd recommend students check that out. - Can you talk a little bit about what got you interested in working maybe with students? - Yeah. So a lot of my work surrounds about bringing access and breaking down barriers, especially for marginalized communities and first gen students, 'cause I have a lot of experience working with first gen students. But to answer your question, I would say a lot of the barriers that I notice in the spaces that I reside in, especially with first gen students is, and myself, in my own perspective, there's a lack of diverse representation that exists, lack of identity and asset-based spaces that affirm varying cultural identities, lack of efforts and inclusion, lack of access to information and support, navigating unfamiliar systems like the process of college applications, scholarships, financial aid, and even core selection sometimes. And then also, first gen students also have to counter that with pressure from family to do well, to succeed, at the same time helping to maintain the same responsibilities that they have at home. So that doesn't get eliminated for them. They continue to support their families through college as well. And so they have those both dual burdens with that. And that can be exhausting and overwhelming from students from this background without a strong support system. And that can be also emotionally taxing for them because it's not just the academic component, but it's also the emotional and social component of that. So for me, as a first gen college student in my lens, I see the challenges that I faced, and a lot of that is cultural and social isolation because a lot of the times I feel like I'm out of place and in the environments and the spaces that I am, and I don't feel like I belong a lot. So it makes it easier for me to not be social, but I am an extrovert, which is counter to that too. So it's like, it conflicts with my personality, but I've noticed that all of these barriers and challenges, though it has led to the need for me to code switch a lot. And I think a lot of BIPOC people this resonates with them as well too. And I code switch a lot in a lot of the different roles that I am in because I don't feel like I belong a lot, not just on campus, but in all of the spaces and the roles that I reside in. And that has perpetuated imposter syndrome for me a lot. And it's something that I still deal with today. So I would say the biggest barrier for me is I'm still trying to navigate to this day, imposter syndrome as a result of racism and centering whiteness and white cultural norms as the normative social structure. And so as a result of this, I have had to deny my own cultural roots, my own cultural identity, and even at times have perpetuated whiteness because I was taught that that's the norm. And so because of that, it's hard for me to live authentically in my head and the spaces I reside in because I'm constantly having to battle between what is Hmong, what is American, but who is Brenda? - Thank you, Brenda, that was beautiful. Thank you for sharing. Definitely leads me to kind of wondering you work with first gen students. Have you noticed whether this code switching is very similar to what you experienced as a first gen student into what, you know, first gen students today are experiencing? - I think first gen students don't talk about this a lot because they, a lot of the times, not all first gen students are made up of BIPOC students, but a huge percent of them are. And BIPOC students have had to live in the nexus of dealing with their own cultural identity. And what does that look like in the larger realm of living in American society, but also denying their cultural identity, but then not truly fitting in, in the larger white centric culture as well. And then having to live in those dualities. And I think a lot of BIPOC folks live in that space. I've had to live in that space. And I think the psychological impact of that is still lingering even as adults for us because we're still learning how to unpack that and what does that look like to live authentically in ourselves. And I've had to deal with that pretty much all my life, not just from an academic or an educational level or in supporting students, but also from a religious perspective as well. 'Cause I grew up in a very evangelical Hmong world. And in the Hmong evangelical world and the Hmong shaman world, it's very different. There are a lot of prejudices and discrimination and bias among that in and of itself. And so I was taught when I was young that Hmong Christians cannot and do not associate with Hmong shaman people. And so as a result of that, I've had to deny my Hmong cultural roots and my history and understanding that. And it wasn't really until grad school that it started to dig deeper into my cultural identity and my roots and the Hmong diaspora and how significant that is for me to learn and understand my cultural identity and my roots and where I belong, where I come from and the significance of that to unpacking the trauma that we currently have in regards to racism or discrimination and learning how to live authentically in our space. So that has been difficult for me. But the thing with evangelicalism though is even though it has perpetuated a lot of that lack of identity and living in that space of unclarity, it has also come brought in closure and solidifying my identity but through my evangelical lens is that even though my values come from my Christian identity, I have to realize that my Christian identity is not in dual with my Hmong identity that they actually compliment each other very well because the way God sees me, he sees all of me and he accepts me for who I am and all of my historical narrative and my cultural identity. - I think that that is a lot of what college is about. - Absolutely. - And just self-discovery and I know that that's what a lot of people share and I guess, I forgive me if this is repetitive but what does it mean to you to be a first gen student? - Wow, that's a, like I said-- - It's a lot to unpack. - It's a lot to unpack. I know I named a lot of the barriers and the challenges to first gen that I face as the first gen but I think it's important to acknowledge the barriers and the marginalizations and put a name to it, right? But we must be careful in not labeling those marginalizations or those definitions onto a person's identity and sometimes we forget that. And so I have to remind myself that even though I have had these challenges as a first gen student and I have been isolated because I don't feel like I belong, that does not define who I am. That doesn't define what I'm capable of. It doesn't define the work that I do and I have to be continually acknowledging my own uniqueness and allowing that voice to kind of highlight through the noise. And I think the solution to that is really not thinking from a deficit lens but thinking from an asset-based lens. In order to do that, you have to dig deep into your culture, your historical narrative and what kind of things can you bring to the table through your own cultural lens. - Do you think it's hard for students to dig into all of these different identities that they bring to campus, especially if maybe that wasn't encouraged as they were growing up? - Absolutely. I see that more so in European cultures actually because in the 1950s, in America, there was this ideology called the melting pot. They believed that Italian cultures, German cultures, Swedish, Irish, Scottish could just be melted into one pot. But when they did that, the ideology of that Chinese people, Japanese people, Asian people were excluded, black and brown people were excluded from that pot that we couldn't be melted into that pot. And so because of that, it created this sort of white narrative, that whiteness is a culture. But that's kind of sort of a lie because whiteness isn't a culture. And I want first-gen students who don't have clarity in their history, especially white students, to be able to reclaim that about their culture and to live in that authentically, what does it mean to be German? What things about my culture that I can absolutely bring to the table to help solve some of these societal issues? Because a lot of the times the burden of solving societal issues comes from BIPOC books and sometimes it's very exhausting for us. But I think if white cultures can turn in and look at their own historical and their own cultures and see that they have asset as well, that they can bring to the table to diversify all of our cultures, to think outside the box to solving a lot of these complex issues that we have in our world right now. - And breaking down those barriers that you were talking about initially? - Absolutely, yes. - Thank you, Brenda. My next question is kind of talking about some of the work you did as the director of Upward Bound Math and Science Programs at East and Lafellette High Schools. Can you talk about what it was like working with students who maybe have had no prior experience with higher education, didn't even know if that was a possibility for them, how you approached that work? - Yeah, I guess I could talk about specific things that I did, like providing academic support or application assistance or creating and wrenching activities to prepare students for success or providing tutoring support services and help with financial aid and scholarship applications or college tours, culture events or workshops on skills like time management or study habits or even college essays. But I think what I'd really like to focus more so on is that I would like to think that I really helped to eliminate some of that imposter syndrome they have and contributed to them gaining a sense of self-confidence and helping them to see that they are indeed an asset and that they are wonderful, not just because they can bring stuff to the table but because they are wonderful by themselves and that they are capable and that they are worthy. And I would like to think that I have helped address not only their academic needs and higher educational needs but their social, emotional, cultural and the need to feel safe and to belong. So my main goal in supporting students during my time and upper bound as the director of math science in that program and the advisor was really through meeting students at the intersections of where they are and where they want to be and helping them to curate and cultivate habits or ideologies that are uniquely tailored to their own narrative and their sense of belonging and their sense of self. It's hard because students have a lot of doubt in themselves but because of the current systems in place that kept me from doing my job well and the red tape and the bureaucracy and the lack of support from leadership. So like not addressing the holistic needs of each student and that's a detriment to students and not just focusing on just the academic component but like looking at the systems of injustice and how that has fundamentally impacted the students' perceptions of themselves, their identity and their need for belonging and safety. So I would say the work is exhausting because you are fighting a system that doesn't value humans but perpetuates injustices. So it's hard because we ourselves, the people who are doing the work are also dealing with our own personal issues of doubts perpetuated by racism and our sense of belonging and finding our identity through all the noise. So we also have to take into consideration our own boundaries of our own mental health and what it looks like to mirror healthy boundaries for students that we support. So instead of doing things for the sake of increasing numbers or data, which I did a lot of that when I was doing upper bound because that was in support of getting the grant, right? The funding. And there's a part of that that is needed for sure but I also have to constantly ask myself and remind myself like, instead of doing things just for the sake of doing stuff and meeting numbers and data, I have to reframe it in a way that reminds me sort of like that the work should not be task oriented because we are supposed to be human centered but that it's about community driven and values driven solutions. And that means that the work that we do is exhausting but that it's also lifelong. - I think that's great. I did wanna touch on that imposter syndrome that you mentioned earlier. I think, I mean, especially me as a college student, I can tell that that's something that me and a lot of my peers face all the time when it comes to applying new positions, going for new opportunities within a school setting or an outside setting. And I'm just curious what your advice would be to students facing that. And that's no doubt a result of a system that we're placed into and kind of reflecting on your own imposter syndrome and how you've continued to deal with that throughout the years. - Yes, absolutely. I hear that a lot all the time. They come to one-on-one appointments with us and they ask, I don't know how to shape or frame my resume or my cover letter in a way where people can see that I am an asset. And I think we have to move away from that deficit lens in order for us to reach and overcome the imposter syndrome. And move authentically in a way that doesn't honor code switching but honors our own authentic self. And the way to do that, especially when you're looking for a job is to honor the unique identities that exist and live in that spaces. They're looking at the skills that you have acquired through the spaces that you reside in and the cultures that you belong to. And so I would say to answer that question, how I work with students in that is I frame it in a way where what would you say are your values? Are your non-negotiables that you have? And looking at your cultural identity from your unique lens and your experiences, how do your values translate into skills that you have adopted and acquired? And how does that work into the spaces of the jobs that you want to get or your career? And curating that and reframing it in that way will help students to see that, yeah, I am an asset. I do have a lot of things to contribute. I have all these skills that I've cultivated through my cultural identity, through my lens of growing up as a first gen, as you know, growing up in poverty where I've had to navigate certain systems that I never thought I needed before, you know. And so I think that's a huge part of that is digging in deep and asking open-ended questions. We do a lot of motivational interviewing tactics with our students and asking those open-ended questions, like you enjoy doing this, that's great, okay. Let's dig deeper into that, you know. What are things that you never thought of that you actually curated as a result of you doing this task specifically and helping them to see that they are an asset is what I enjoy about doing the work that I do. - I'm curious, is that kind of the majority of the work that you do at SuccessWorks, motivational buildup, preparation, things like that, how is that translated from, I mean, your end desire from all the work that you do gaining access and helping students to understand that they themselves are an asset in the spaces that they're placed into? - Yeah, that's also a tough question, but yeah, I think we start with our resources, obviously, but the resources that we provide, our resume writing, our job internship, we break those down into four facets is to start it with exploring and helping students to explore sort of what it is they want to do, how to navigate those spaces that they want to belong to, and then helping them to create the toolkit to actually get to where they want to get to, and then also having conversations about how to build those experiences that they want to build to get to where they want to get, and then helping them also to get those jobs and internships or grad school, that's where they want to go. And so I think those four components, they move interchangeably and they are present in my one-on-one appointments, they are present in the emails that I respond to, present in the conversations that I have with department partners and all of those things, but then the way we handle the specific niche component of that is through our specific career communities that we have sort of broken down the industries specifically and a specialist that knows the expertise in that specific area for students who are majoring in certain majors specifically to get them connected to that specific trend or that expertise to help elevate them if that's where they want to go into. - Have you noticed, not to say a trend, but have you noticed the first gen students, the BIPOC students that you've worked with, are they hesitant to reach out to you for this type of advising? Or is it something that they look forward to, they want to access these tools that you're providing? - I can't speak to every student, but I have had appointments where students, BIPOC students are hesitant in applying for jobs because they don't really see themselves as an asset or they don't see that they have these amazing skills that they can frame in a way that is an asset to the employers. And so being able to help them through that noise and helping them to kind of find themselves in that and at the same time, while acknowledging their identity and where they are currently and how to build support and resources to meet them where they want to go. I think that's always kind of been my theme, sort of is like meeting students where they belong, where they are currently and then how to help them walk along that journey to where they want to be. - Yeah, definitely. I'm curious, Brenda, what are your one-on-one appointments look like in your everyday work from beginning to end? What are you discussing? What kind of things do students typically come to you to talk about? - I do get a lot of resume review, resume writing for sure. And I would say my bulk of appointments are either that or job searching. I get some appointments where students are stuck and they're like, I don't know what major I want to major in. And I don't know how that translates into a career or job. And to be honest, we don't do a lot of that exploring component itself. The Career Exploration Center, the CEC, I always get them mixed up with so many acronyms. They actually help students explore that component and they are great at it. And they do assessments with students, but I do get some appointments where the students are like, I want to explore what jobs exist in this specific career or this specific industry. And I want to help learn what kinds of skills I can build to get into that. So I have a variety of diverse appointments, I would say, but the majority of it is resume writing. And I think right now there's a lot of myths when it comes to looking for jobs. And so we do a lot of that demystifying for students and busting those myths and helping them to kind of recollect themselves and work on focusing the skills that they already have and how to highlight that, how to frame that in a way where employers can see that they are an asset. - Definitely. You know, a common theme that I've mentioned is you working with students and you finding these positions where you can be kind of a pillar for them when they need it the most. I'm curious, across many of your positions, we've talked about your prioritizing your work with students. Do you continue to see yourselves in them? What drives you every day to work with them? And to be that pillar that I mentioned? - Yeah, I definitely see myself and students a lot, but I would say in regards to the pillar or the values that I have that continues to motivate me and to prioritize working with students is because of my evangelical roots, to be honest. You know, the golden rule, the highest command is pretty much to love your neighbor the same way you love yourself and to see others as you see yourself and loving God with all your heart, mind, body and soul. And I believe that it's possible to love others without loving God, but it's impossible to love God and not love others. That does not mix. (laughs) And so my experience as a first-gen Hmong immigrant has also shaped my values and belief that the solution to a lot of the problems that we face lies in understanding each other through cultural identity and moving away from a dominant narrative but a more pluralistic lens. And I have always believed that creating a society a world where everyone is seen, is valued, heard and loved has to start in our educational systems. And that's why I'm in education, but it also has to start with us teaching history that is just not pluralistic, that encompasses many different narratives but making sure that we take into consideration our dark past and how to restore and reconcile that past with the future that we want to create and belong to. And that includes not just our educational systems but also our political and legislative processes. So to put the burden on one specific group of people to write laws and carry them out is a task that is daunting and also very heavy for one specific group of people. But we see that there is lack of representation, right? And all of our systems. That's why I think it's crucial that we ensure that differing perspectives and multiple voices are at the table to ensure we are looking at every avenue to solving these complex problems that we have in our society. - Looking ahead and looking into your future career, what are your personal goals for making UW Madison a place for everyone? Despite socioeconomic status, despite race, despite the barriers that are in place to put people of certain backgrounds down, what are your personal goals for achieving that access? - Yeah, I would say my outlook in the future, I believe one day we will not have a need for diverse representation anymore because all are represented. One day we will not have a need for equitable practices because we see each other's stories and understand how we are all connected and how all of us have created and perpetuated systems of injustices that perpetuate inequality. And one day we will no longer need to create spaces where people feel included because all of our spaces will be able to authentically display all of our identities and the value of those identities. Unfortunately, we are not there yet, but I believe we can make this possible but only through valuing cultural identity and moving away from one dominant narrative and solving our societal problems through a pluralistic lens that embodies culture, identity, and seeing humans as assets. Recently, I did a workshop with Posse students on how to find jobs and internships. And let me tell you, being in that space with Posse students, they have so much diversity and so many diverse cultural backgrounds that students in that group are not just bilingual but they're dual, tri, and quadlingural. That was a glimpse into the future, a future that I want to be a part of. And so my personal goal has always been to make sure that everyone is seen, heard, valued, and loved for who they are. And I don't think that it's some high pie in the sky ideology, but I believe that we can do it, but it's going to take a lot of us, all of us, and it's going to take a lot of work for us to get it done. But we have to be very intentional in creating spaces where people can see themselves represented in a way that doesn't make them feel like they have to hide certain parts of themselves and cannot bring their entire selves to the spaces that they are in. And I believe this requires the hard work of us dismantling whiteness, white-centric ideology, in a world filled with such beauty and diversity, it's not possible to avoid and intentionally ignore the beauty of pluralism. And so dismantling whiteness isn't about canceling people either 'cause that's very toxic. It's about canceling the idea of perfectionism, which is rooted in white supremacy. And it's about calling folks in to recognize their own unique cultural upbringing that white supremacy has denied them up, actually, and acknowledging that whiteness isn't a culture, but that being German is a culture, being Italian is a culture, being Scottish, Irish, British, and I hope that we will continue to stay curious and show each other understanding and love, but especially show ourselves understanding and love so that we can continue to be and stay curious. - Thank you so much, Brenda. I think we can all agree that you've created a wonderful space for learning and self-discovery and authenticity and myself, everyone, my peers, first-gen students, BIPOC students are so grateful that there are people like you that wanna create this space that we look forward to hopefully being able to carry out in the future. And so thank you so much for this interview and for sharing a little bit about your background and for your honesty and what you see every day and your hopes for the future based on your own identity and that of our students. So thank you so much. - You're welcome. It was a pleasure to be here with Molly. - Thanks for joining us, Brenda. If you're interested in career advising, you can schedule an appointment with Brenda through Starfish. And if you're interested in exploring what Brenda is involved in outside of the university, you can find more information by looking on the Dane County Board website. And of course, stay connected to All Things Mortgage Center @MortgageCenter on Instagram, Blue Sky, and LinkedIn. Thanks for tuning in and we hope to see you next time.