Australian Survivor | Interview with Network Executive Producer Tim Ali

(upbeat music) - Australians, survivor is saved. - Survivor is saved. - Survivor is saved. - Survivor is saved. - Survivor is saved. - Survivor is saved. - 21 South Africans, 12 ordinary Australians. - 16 New Zealandese. (speaking in foreign language) - One million pounds. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (upbeat music) - Hello everyone, Shannon Garcia getting you ready for some special off-season content for the Australian Survivor and Survivor off-season. And I have an interview with the executive producer for Paramount Australia and New Zealand named Tim Arley. And we are very, very lucky to have this interview today with Tim because Tim is an important player in the production of Survivor, of Australian Survivor, as you'll hear. I wanted to give just a little bit of background context on Tim, even though he's gonna explain it. I wanna spoil the whole interview, but just for the context, you know, Tim works from a network perspective and as you'll hear very, very closely with the production side of everything, basically signing off basically on everything and really looking at everything from a network perspective and an audience perspective on what we finally get to see as the final product in Australian Survivor. He's worked on the last three seasons. He also has experience as an executive producer on a bunch of the other network 10 shows. I'm a celebrity, my singer, amazing rave, the bachelor. So he has that experience there and he's very closely connected to Survivor. So we speak through, you know, kind of the approach in terms of casting, production, twist, editing, you know, all the things that are very, very unique to the franchise. And I think what's so important about that as well is that you'll even hear in the analysis that we do, everything that we talk about from a production standpoint is so innately tied to the network for Australian Survivor. Something I think we do a lot less of for US Survivor because it feels like with CBS, they kind of give them the time slot and then like let them run rampant because it's a given. They've been there for, you know, 44 seasons. Whereas Australian Survivor is in its infancy and, you know, you're always battling with the networks and it's amazing to me the kind of backing that Network 10 has given to Australian Survivor. Like it puts it up against, you know, the biggest competition, the shows that shouldn't be named but that rhyme with the rock and buried at first light. So the fact that they're willing to let Survivor go up against these shows and, you know, support the show to back itself at that point shows how invested it is in Australian Survivor. And then obviously going into a ninth season, that's very encouraging as well. So I think it's really important to talk about what the network, how it approaches things from an audience standpoint, how that longevity will hopefully be assured through that. The different types of audiences that Tim and the network feel they need to balance was a really fascinating thing from the interview. And something I didn't really get to as well with Tim 'cause we, you know, we were lucky to have the 40 minutes that we had. But, you know, I think the network is very, very committed to the super fan community. Like, you know, we have Jury Villa where there's not even U.S. Bondarosa anymore but like the secret scenes and something like Talking Tribal where Tim is my boss on Talking Tribal, you know, really trying to cater to the super fan audience while also looking at kind of like all these other audiences and what Tim calls the broad audience. I think it was a really fascinating thing. So yeah, I think that this is a really unique insight into that network perspective, which is so, so closely tied to production. And as Tim will tell you, I should just let you listen to the interview but he has to sign off on everything because obviously that's like the be all and end all. And Tim is a very important man, very, very lucky to have any time with him. I hope that you guys enjoy this. It was certainly a thrill for me. And I think that getting some of the confirmations and insights from Tim on how the network looks at it will make analysis also really stronger going forward when we look at what they do and why they do it. So really, really happy to have this one. I hope you guys enjoy and I will see you on the other side. Hello everyone and welcome to IHAP's coverage of Australian Survivor with some off-season coverage with an incredible guest. We have someone who is so important. I don't even think the listeners understand and hopefully you will come to understand how lucky we are to have this person with us. He is the network executive producer for Paramount Australia and New Zealand, meaning he is like the big boss of Australian Survivor. He's signing off on all the things that we get to watch and talk about. So we are so lucky to have Tim Arley here. Tim, thank you so much for being here. - Thanks, Shannon. I really appreciate it. It's a big intro and I don't feel it's that over the top, but yeah, I mean, I guess it is somewhat important. Just the cog in the big chain. - Just the biggest cog in the machine that turns all the other cogs to make survivor. So we're very, very lucky to have you here and we're very, very grateful. I'm so grateful we've been looking to do this interview for a while and to get into it, I'd love if you could just let the listeners know a little bit of the intricacies behind your role as Network EP and how you kind of deal with the creative team on that and what your kind of day-to-day looks like in creating a show like Survivor. - Yeah, not a problem. Well, first of all, Shannon, thank you very much for being such a long-time, passionate host of Talking Travel because the show would not exist without you. So thanks for being part of that year on year. The audience love you and the show is amazing because we have you on it. - Oh, thank you, Tim. - We look forward to making more. So yeah, so as you said, I'm essentially the network executive for Survivor. I run a lot of our big franchises as well and Survivor is one of them. I love Survivor. It's such a unique show. It has such a passionate audience and my job is essentially to protect that audience. Even though we, you know, every decision that you make creatively isn't gonna be liked by every single person that watches the show. That's just television and that's just hand in hand. But I guess in a broad sense, my job is to make sure that the production company, which is Endermol Shine. So I work very closely with the executive producer of Endermol Shine, who are the ones, those executive producers at Endermol are the ones that do the nitty gritty of making the show. So they'll come up with all the creative ideas. They'll go do the casting tour. They'll write all the scripts. They'll come up with all the challenges. You know, all the creative in terms of idols and twists and locations. Every part of the nitty gritty of the show is made by Endermol. And then my role is essentially to come in and be part of that creative process by essentially approving what they present to us. So they will present a series creative. They will present cast. They'll present everything about the show to me and also the person higher than me as well, our director of content and programming, Daniel. And we'll all sit in a room. They'll present everything. And we kind of have a discussion about it. And I think that's the big thing as well. You know, there's no real, although, you know, my responsibility is to sign off on the show and allow them to go and create their vision and make the series. You know, it's not a dictatorship kind of hierarchy in any kind of way. You know, Survivor is a show where people have lots and lots and lots of opinions on how it should be made. You know, I'm a fan of the show. Daniel's a fan of the show. Beverly, the head of the network, is a fan of the show and her kids love it as well. So everyone likes to buy into this. And then on the end of Moleshine side, you know, the executive producers are hugely passionate about making the show. So there's a lot of ideas that get thrown around. I think the most important part, I think like anything in a content creation world today is that you allow lots of people to have ideas and talk about them and work out what is gonna be best for the show. And I think that is the key thing, is that what is best for the show. The show always wins, you know, in terms of everything that we're deciding on. So yeah, it's, yeah. And like I said, as you know, the amount of opinion that comes with Survivor every season and the amount of commentary. - This feels like a mythic. - Exactly, I know. I'm glad I'm not the only one because I cop it. I mean, the amount of messages alone, personal text messages, I get alone. - You guys do a number. - When the show goes to where it went. Well, no, this is just people in the industry. This is just colleagues that work on all the shows or people at 10 or people at Paramount from other parts of the business. You know, I'll just get ran. I might not even be watching the show off air that night because I want to see every episode two or three times at least before it goes to where. 'Cause I do sign off on the process as well. So, but you know, I'll be sitting at a dinner and I'll get some message and it'll just be like, "George, capital letters are for exclamation marks." I'm like, and then I'm at dinner and I'm going, "Hey, I want, oh, that must have been that moment. Oh yeah, that's funny." So it just, it never stops, it never stops. But yeah, so my, just going back to what my role is. So, yes, they, I will be involved in every creative stage of the show. So initial inception of the theme and the series creative, all the way through the casting process, all the way through the production process and being on the ground in the location. Last year, obviously Samoa. And then I go into the post process as well. So I'll sign off on every episode once it's been edited. And then from that, my job doesn't stop there because even though the production company kind of stopped once they deliver the finale, I then go on to the on air process as well, which is where monitoring on air, monitoring feedback, the publicity side of it all comes into play. So it's a probably, even though it's a two month shoot in Samoa, the show is about a 10 month job. - Yeah. - All year round because there's so many elements of it. Once you've gone off there, it's only two months till you're starting pre-production for the next series. So yeah, so that kind of sums it up. But I guess I, you know, Endemol shine will go off and have all their, you know, big creative ideas and they'll have their whiteboards and they'll throw everything at the wall and they'll come up with all their ideas in every stage of the show and then bring it into me and say, this is what we wanna do, you know? And then we'll have a conversation about it and most of the time I say, freaking amazing, let's do it. But think about this, but think about that. Have we thought about this, you know? If you're gonna do that, can we make sure we steer it kind of in this direction? And that's with post as well. So with post, they will go away and edit every episode and then they will only show me when they are 100% happy with what they have produced. And then I'll go in for what we call a network screening and I'll go sit down and they'll, you know, they'll play the episode to me and then I'll just give feedback and we just talk about stuff in the room. And again, look, a lot of the times there's not a lot of notes to be given from me because a lot of our creative decision-making and my thoughts going into the series have raised quite early so that they can take that into their whole process. I don't really like kind of throwing bombs at them halfway through post or, you know, "Oh, I've got this idea, can we do it this way now?" You know, I like to get all my kind of creative influence done early so they can try and, you know, infiltrate that into the series where it needs to be done as a full, you know, as a full process. But yeah, so I'll sit in the screenings and they'll play the episode and I'll give notes and away we go and we do that for the whole, we do that obviously for every episode. So yeah, it's a really fun process but as I was just mentioning to you while we were chatting before recording, you know, when you have a production team that you trust so much, it makes my job a joy 'cause I just get to collaborate with them essentially and just bounce around cool ideas. And, you know, like I said, everyone's got an opinion. No idea is necessarily the right one. The show has to win in terms of what's best for the show and the future of the show. And I think what makes my role and what makes it important is that I need to be seeing everything through the lens of our audience and the Channel 10 audience. It's a tough balance with Survivor because we have a huge hyper fan base which are just, you know, every frame of every series, every episode, every contestant and their journey. Kind of like you, Shannon. - I should hope so. Otherwise, I'd think I'm fired from all your tribals. - Yeah, so we have the, yeah, so we have the super stardom fan base and then we have kind of our general fan base which will kind of might miss a series but always jump back into the casual fan base, yeah. And then we have what is really important to 10 and that's a broad audience. So, you know, we have to be making a show that hits all our fans at all different levels. And that's really hard to do because you never wanna go, you wanna be able to go intricate with story and gameplay but can't go too far down that garden path that you can't actually explain it in a 60 or 90 minute episode. You know, and that's the other thing as well. We've got time constraints like we're a prime time show that has to sit in a commercial network schedule. So we can't just go on and make 120 minute episodes and tell every story that exists. It's got to, you know, the biggest challenge for the production companies when they edit the show is they've got to pick the strongest best stories and they've got to arc the stories and the show and the series in a way that's gonna bring the best stories that happened on the beach, bring that out. For some people that can seem quite easy 'cause it's like, well, this happened at tribal. So surely if that happened at tribal then that's the story leading through reality. But yes, to a point that's true but also there's a lot of other intricacies that are happening with 24 contestants when we start. And we wanna try and lean into as many of them as we can. Playing back stories, getting the audience to care about our contestants as well. And then from a broader level as well is our contestants have to print so that our casual viewers or our even broader audience that just wanna throw survivor on in front of their family, our characters and the storyline have to smash through and print. So it grabs that audience, they go, "Oh, that's actually quite interesting. "I might watch that again tomorrow." So, yeah, as well as not kind of... Yeah, and then you've got to kind of not over explain to a broad audience so you annoy the fan base. 'Cause you're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, we know. "Stop treating us as stupid." It's like, "Yeah, we're doing that "because not everyone might understand it." So, yeah, it's a pretty full-on balance. It's a pretty full-on thing to kind of juggle. And, yeah, although I say we don't... A lot of the time there, there isn't a lot of feedback to give in the post-process. The times that there is, they're at a pretty full-on level 'cause it's conversation after conversation. It's going, "That audience isn't gonna understand that "and we have to protect it." You know, and it's like, "Yeah, but this is so strong "because of X, Y, and Z." So, you know, and it's always a collaboration. And we always land somewhere in the middle, which is fine 'cause at the end of the day, something will happen and something will go to air. So it's just about finding that middle ground, I guess, yeah. - Yeah, that's very interesting 'cause I think I always think about it as super fans and then the hardcore casuals who are kind of between that. People were trying to convert into super fans with something like talking tribal, like into full super fans, and the casuals, but I hadn't thought of that like lower level of the broad audience of people were trying to capture in with like one George Confessional of like, "Oh, I've seen it, now I'm hooked." And that's how you create, that's how you start building the ladder to hopefully super fans. So it's interesting trying to manage that. And if you're looking at it from that audience perspective, are there any like particular points of view that you have? 'Cause as you said, that you're part of every part. So from a casting perspective into production, twist, all of that location, and then the edit, all of those things, if anything specifically that you feel very strongly about where your point of view is always coming in from that audience perspective to say, "Hey, we need more blank." Or, "I'd love it to go in this direction." Or anything even specifically from the last couple of seasons that you've worked on, that you really feel like you had a strong point of view of like, "It has to go in this way." Or, "I really like or don't like this specific thing." - Well, I think if I cast your mind back and probably the listener's mind back to "Brains vs. Brawn," it was a fantastic series. I think, sorry, I'll just get back to that in a sec. But what I'm trying to say is I think every series we do, I'm kind of picking up something that we might go, "You know what, that didn't really work." Or, "We didn't get a lot of great feedback on that." Like let's just, you know, take into account why that didn't work. Like, and how can we do it better? So I think every season, we're, you know, learning and evolving and changing. So back to "Brains vs. Brawn," you know, that one, I personally thought, and I know a lot of the viewers did too, that there were just too many twists and a lot of idols in that series. - Right, yeah. - Yeah, so I think, yes, obviously, the fans went mental and Twitter went mental and everyone, you know, had a good time. - Yeah, that was not me. I promise I wouldn't do anything there. - Sorry, but you know what? No, that's okay, but again, I think it wasn't, like, yes, it was really divided in the fan base and the fan base are the ones that are gonna be vocal, you know, and this is the thing I say to a lot of people, is like, "We never change a show because Twitter tells us to." Because my big kind of philosophy on this is like, well, they have an opinion. Now whether, like, people that are posting have an opinion. Now whether it's positive or negative doesn't matter because they're engaged. It's the people that aren't engaged that we actually have to worry about and how do we get them engaged in either a positive or negative way. So I'm not worried about it if Twitter blows up because everyone hated something. It's like, cool, that's okay. And then we can go into the research as to why they hated it. It's like, right, well, something in there triggered them all to go, oh my God, this is the worst thing I've ever seen, or oh my God, this is the most amazing thing I've ever seen. So it's just breaking down what that was and how can we adjust it to still get the same reaction but maybe not get it so negative or whatever. So yeah, it's always a balance and we're always learning every series. So yes, Brains versus Brawn, too many twists, too many idols. And I think once you get into post-production, you kind of, you've locked yourself in because the twists, you've produced the story on the ground and it has to play out that way because you've produced it that way. So you're kind of, you're like, all right, we just got to lean in and we got to do it and we take the learnings into the next series. Look, Brains versus Brawn was one of our highest rating series and one of the most popular series. - I love it, we're currently covering it actually, a rewatch series of it. - Oh, you are? - Yeah, that's how much I enjoyed it. We got Hailey, George, Flick, Simon out of that series. So, casting was brilliant and that's the, I think that was the last time we did before this one that we're doing now. This was the last time we did a full face-to-face casting tour because of COVID. - Wow. - So, yeah, so- - And it was such a good cast. - And it was a really brilliant cast and only until now we've been allowed to do that again. So I'm really excited for the future series 'cause we've gone out and done a full casting tour again. The casting tour has still obviously happened on other series just with COVID and everything allowing us to be hands-on with it. We weren't able to do that. But this series we were again, which is great, this one coming. But yes, Brains versus Brawn, amazing cast. So, although it was pretty controversial in terms of how many twists and how many idols we put in the show, it still ended up being a great series. So, and then we'd look, we just take that learning on and I think one of the, to answer your question, one of the big things that I wanted to do was, I think, given time restraints and all the story that's happening, especially with the idol thing, what happens on the beat, like people walk past idols and miss idols all the time. But a lot of the time the way it plays out on air is perceived like they're just walking and they just find it straight away. So, that doesn't actually happen. People search and they don't find it, they spend day searching, they don't find it. Obviously, we don't have the time to tell all that story. So, one of the things that I wanna do is try and create a way to tell that story where it's like trying to find a moment where someone's missed an idol and it's there and it's looked, they missed it and just trying to prove that point that they don't just turn up to them and find them straight away. We really do hide them in really hard places and they are really hard to find. So, that's kind of one thing. I think twists is something that I do kind of question a lot when they pitch a lot of the twists. Have they been done in future series? Have they been done in the US? Have they been done in any other territories? How were they perceived? What was the outcome? I think for me, it's really important to stay within the realm of the tone and concept of what survivor is. And I don't want it to be going, like yes, we have to evolve the show, but I don't want it to be going too far, too far fetch with random twists 'cause that doesn't protect the show, it doesn't protect the format. So, but obviously the producers that we have in play feel very much the same and it's not really a conversation that has to go much further. I just like to keep flagging it and reminding them. It's like, just explain to me where this has come from, how this concept's been, where the inception has come from and what are you planning to get out of it. And if it is something quite cool that is in the tone of survivor that maybe hasn't been done before, but we all kind of think, you know what, if there's enough of us on board with this and we're all fans, let's just give it a go. And I think that's what we did with brains versus bronze as well. It was kind of, that's a cool idea. Let's give it a crack. Something's worked, something's didn't, but 'cause I think it is important to evolve the show. And I think we need to, again, it's just about balance. And I think being now going into our ninth season, our audience is educated on kind of what to expect. And, you know, maybe a lot of our audience don't wanna keep seeing the same thing. Maybe they wanna, we need to ensure that we're doing different things every year to kind of keep our audience engaged as well. So, yeah, it's just a balance thing. But I think as long as everything is kind of pure and true to the format, then, you know, I think we can pretty much, you know, throw anything at the wall. But I think that's the main overall thing. What else, it's, I think, yeah, I think the idols and twisting is something that is always on forefront. My radar. Cast, obviously, is the other one. That's the big one, really, where they, when they come in and pitch our cast, obviously we have a theme in mind. And they, actually, it's kind of mixed in match. So, usually, we kind of have a theme in mind, and then we'll go out and cast for that thing. And sometimes we go, why don't you go out and cast and see what you get? And then, you know, in the preference of actually putting the characters first, and then adjusting a theme to go around what we find. Because, you know, and we've done both ways, and both ways have benefits, both ways has disadvantages. But, you know, I think by putting a cast priority first in terms of going out there and finding what character you get can have real benefits, because then you can just tailor a theme around it, and you know you're just, you're getting the best character, no matter what. You're not trying to, you know, fit a square block in a round hole or something like that. So, yeah, but casting's a big one, because that, again, comes down to audience, because, you know, we 10 and Paramount have a very specific audience, and we need to make sure we kind of stay within that tone, and it's very important for us to stay within that tone without casting. So, again, end of all, us and end of all have a very strong relationship when we're making this show together for years. So they know exactly what we kind of want, and we know what they want as well. So we always kind of, again, just, it's just that compromise. But, you know, we need to, well, as survivor is, you know, and this is why we commissioned the show. This is why we're so passionate about the show. It brings people from all walks of life into this scenario that plays out naturally. You know, so I think that's what's important. We've got to make sure that they're hitting a lot of different target markets and hitting a lot of different kind of audiences in their casting process. We don't want too many of the same type of people. Again, we've kind of had that in the past, you know, to use brains versus brawn as an example, you know, to cast the brains versus brawn, you're gonna naturally get a lot of the same types of people 'cause it's quite a narrow theme, you know? And I think that's one of the other things we, with our themes, is we like to, I guess, learnings out of that, is we like to come up with themes that we can kind of adjust story to allow us to put more diverse characters in there. So it's not just brawn being a whole lot of strong people and brains being printing as kind of weaker in strength, but stronger in the mind kind of thing. Even though that's what the theme was, we try and break out of those stereotypes. I think, yeah, like I said, having a theme that allows us to do that is important because anyone can be, it's like heroes versus villains as well. You know, a hero can be a stay-at-home single mother with three kids who runs their own business. You know, she's a hero in her own life because of everything she's taken on, as well as your kind of natural, maybe a big, strong guy as a hero, you know, that's kind of a, a stereotypical kind of superhero, you know. So that was one we could really play with. And villain, you know, villain can be portrayed in a lot of different ways as well. You know, like Fraser being the real estate agent as a villain, that was really smart casting. And then even Simon, you know, Simon was a villain in terms of his survivor story. So, yeah, it's about being able to cast in a wide variety of characters to bring them into those tribes and the theme, I guess. - Yeah. - So yeah, we're just very particular on that. And I think Ten's tone is naturally, we are warm, supportive, encouraging, loving, you know, that's our tone throughout all our programming. So even though Survivor is a game of deceit and lying and manipulation, we still like to have that tone kind of throughout the show and what it is. Because again, that talks to our broad audience, you know, our broad audience wanna be able to switch it on and switch on Ten knowing that overall, they're getting a certain tone. Now, don't get me wrong, it doesn't mean we water down Survivor in any type of way, but it does come into play where that, it does come into play when casting and casting characters, you know, we don't go for super, super tabloid, super high clickbait tabloid. It's not the way Ten's tone is. And that works for us. And it's works for Survivor too, because you get a purist game. You're not getting people out there that are just playing the game for headlines. They are very strategic and they are playing the game true to their character and true to what we believe how the game should be played. So yeah, I think that, you know, creative and casting is probably in the forefront of my mind when it comes to, you know, building a series. - Yeah, and then so what about the connection to CBS? Because it's all under paramount. There's been such a connection to the US show with like Sandra Russell and like, you know, some of the themes, I feel like there's like a reverence, especially with something like Heroes versus Villains 4, the US show. And obviously I feel like that, you know, it's a free bingo square for me to say, you know, what about a global season in the future? Which is definitely something I want to take on, but there's a connection to the US. So from a network perspective, how do you kind of see that in terms of like, you know, we're our own thing and we've got a lot of global recognition, I think. And then there's also kind of, you know, the big brother of the US that we're kind of always like reaching out a hand to a little bit. - Yeah, for sure. I think they are very different shows, you know. Again, it comes down to audience. You know, CBS make the show for their audience and an American audience and we make the show for us. Just going back to that tone thing I was saying before, I watched a couple of episodes that David Verts Goliath recently, the US one. And the way that they, the tone that they kind of portrayed their characters in was, they have no fear in going negative. Like they're David's made them, you know, they made them feel so negative, you know, just trying to set that kind of the game play. It was like the David Verts Goliaths Goliaths were so positive and David's was, you know, so negative. Like we'd never do that, you know, we wouldn't say, you know, that in America, I think they can, they talk a lot more openly about their class system. Whereas I think we're very protective of that and we wouldn't really go kind of near that because it's unsupporting a certain part of Australia. And it's talking negative, it's talking about them negatively. So I don't know if we, we wouldn't ever kind of do that. Again, our audience is all about, you know, support and uplifting and everything has to have, has a positive tone. Like our villains in Heroes vs. Villains, you know, we look through the lens of like a Disney villain. You know what I mean? It wasn't like we're not casting criminals or like all those kinds of things. They're Disney villains or villains in the, in the, in the, in, in, in Survivor like Simon, you know, he's a puppy dog at real life. You've, you've met him, you know what he's like. He's a puppy dog in real life, but in terms of in the game, he was a villain. So it's about, I think the American show differs because they, I think they lean a lot harder into their stereotypes like that. And the stereotypes are very different in America than they are in Australia. So here we have to speak very true to what our audience appreciate. Now, our audience do appreciate big, strong people, male and female going at it in big, you know, in big challenges, like we know for a fact that that's what our Australian audience appreciate. And Sandra said it best when she came over and played this game in season seven, you know, when she goes, wow, you guys, you guys really value strength and loyalty. And the loyalty is the big one too, because how many, how many seasons? Like 12 people are sitting there in the, or 11, 12 or 11 in the first couple of travels. Like, oh, keeping the team strong. Now I've got to keep the team strong and yet integrity and loyalty. And it's like this footy team mentality, you know, which I think it speaks to kind of the Australian culture a bit as well. And that whole tall poppy syndrome thing is like, if you stand up and like have the big opinion or tell someone what to do or whatever, you just cut it, cut down straightaway, you know? And we've seen that so many times. It's a classic thing. I mean, Michael in series eight, you know, he just played way too strong, way too hard. And I was like, mate, back in your box, otherwise you're going to go kind of thing, you know? And that, whereas in America, it's, they just go so hard from the start. They're just into it from the start. It's about who's the, you know, who's the stronger one to, you know, come out fighting. Whereas in Australia, it's not like that. And I'm sure you have an opinion on this too, but that's the biggest thing that I've seen. It's just that keeping the tribe strong thing and the loyalty thing. And I think that's why players like George in the recent series, Brains vs. Braun in the recent series, which is why it's so important for characters like, for us to highlight characters like him, because he's showing us a new way of playing the game that isn't about solely about strength and loyalty of the team, you know? And his journey is, you know, we probably don't have time to go into his whole journey over the two seasons he's played, but I just want people to recognize that we recognize that as such an evolution of the Australian show. And it's moving away from everything it's previously been about, which is strength and loyalty. It's, yes, he's still got loyalty on, he's still got a little bit of loyalty, but in terms of the way he plays and strategically maneuvers around his relationships, and he's never the strongest person on the tribe and always protects the weak, or his MO is, you know, protect the weak. You know, it's such, it's the first time we've really seen that in the Australian series and I think that's why it's so important and so good that our show has evolved that way through his style of gameplay. - I'd love to hear from an editing perspective because Australian Survivor has quite a specific editing form, which can be controversial. I think a lot of people enjoy it. Some people, you know, are more used to the US style, but it's more like we have main characters, we have side characters, and that probably speaks to an audience component as well where people have to know who they're supporting, know who are the main characters and maybe don't have the brain space for 24 people. So what's your kind of perspective on that and kind of how we'll see kind of extremes of content where someone like George will know better than almost anyone probably in Global Survivor, and there are some people we don't remember. And what's your perspective on that kind of being the editing style? - Look, again, I think people just have to understand that, you know, it's a commercial prime time show that has to fit in a slot and we only have so much time to tell a story and we only have 24 episodes to tell the whole series of arcs. So, look, it is a lot, it is a lot, but I think there's, you're always gonna get players that are gonna fall off into the distance in the background in the first week or so on air because it's just, you know, again, our goal is for our characters to print strong and stories to print strong. So we have to highlight them first and get those characters into our audience's brain. And generally they are the, you know, the strongest stories that are happening on the beach up front. We gotta get them to the forefront because they are what gonna, is what gonna carry the series through. And then we can start, you know, plotting little seeds of other things that are happening and watching them grow. We had such an, and we do, we have an amazing editing team. The last series, I was just so happy with the way it came together because that's exactly what we did. You know, three episodes before something happened, we're planting that seed. And then the arc evolves as a subtext, you know, on top of everything else that's happening. You know, and they, the team were just so genius in the way they put that series together. It was amazingly produced on the ground. And the characters gave us absolute gold in terms of like they were so passionate about playing so hard. And I think when you get characters that do that, it just turns into great TV because it makes producing them fun or makes producing the show fun. And then it makes it editing fun because you've got all these different places you can go. And I think having more options is better because you can, again, you can just plant this little seed and the flower evolves three episodes later. And that, what evolved then actually plays into account in six episodes time. So you're getting these, this constant beautiful flow of story arc. So, yeah, I think basically putting your main stories forward to grab our audience and to move us forward. And then once we've got them and we can drag them into future episodes, then we can start planting the seeds of everything else that's going on. - Amazing. Well, Tam, I know you don't have much more time. I feel like there are two questions I have to ask before we go. And firstly, global international season, 'cause they have brought Sandra, there is, you know, Russell, there is this kind of, you know, U.S. thing. Have you ever thought about U.S. versus Australia? Has, is there something, is that something you would personally be, you know, kind of keen for? - I'm on board, it's a conversation that would have to be had at the right time because I don't think I'd want to bring it up and it'd be shut down because it might not eventuate again. So you've only got, you know, you've only got to get an idea over the line and actually into the concept actually evolved. You know, you've got to be quite strategic about when you pitch it or, you know, when you're trying to come up with that idea. So it's definitely in the back of my mind. I think we've just got to wait for the right opportunity for it to happen. But, and I've spoken about it with EndoMol as well. So maybe, maybe. - Maybe. And then last question, what can be teased about what's to come? Obviously, as you said, you had this in-person casting call, looking at season nine. Is there anything you can give us to tide us over? And, you know, any, yeah, what, anything? - Disappointingly, I haven't been pitched the cast yet. So I can't tell you much. All I can tell you is that they are having, I'm getting updates and they are saying it's going so, so well and the characters that they're finding are some of the best we've seen. So stay tuned. - Is there a theme in mind yet? Or we're doing cast first? - There is, but I can't reveal. There is a theme, but I can't reveal it yet. - No, of course. Well, I appreciate your time so much, Tim. Thank you so much for everything. - No worries, Shannon. - And for coming onto the podcast. And it's such a treat for the listeners. So thank you so much. - Yeah, no worries at all, Shannon, any time. - Thank you. All right, thanks, Tim. Bye. - Thanks, Hia. Talk soon. - There you have it, everyone. Hope that you enjoyed this interview. Tim and I were saying afterwards, we could have spoken about this stuff for hours. It's really, really interesting to me to get that from someone who's so important to the process and so important to that network perspective. So thank you all for listening to that. I really, really was fascinated by the idea of like, they even feel that the brainless as Braun had too many tweets. I was like, that's a good thing going forward. Now we know that that was a bit of an anomaly, which is interesting because I think that we felt, with that being the first season after the break, we were like, is this it? Is this like the way that it is going forward? And I know that they have like a different E.P. and David Forst and Heroes vs. Villains were so different to that and we felt so much more chill. And actually, Blood vs. Water as well, we felt was particularly chill in that pre-merge. And we really have liked a lot of the production decisions since. So the idea that they're learning from brains vs. Braun and felt that that went a bit too far, that's fascinating to me because that shows that we're on a different track that we might have thought at the time and that that's the anomaly compared to some of the decisions made after the factor. We know kind of their intention going forward. So I thought that was really interesting. Definitely the idea of casting for an Australian market, the idea of the different audiences was fascinating. Yeah, and just thinking through as well, the future, hearing Tim say maybe a global season is something he's considered and even spoken about. That's a fascinating one as well. So a lot of great insights there. Really hope that you guys enjoyed this. Speaking of brains vs. Braun, as I mentioned in the interview, Rob and I are covering a rewatch podcast. Rewatch with me, first watch for Rob. We are about to do week two on that. And you really don't have to watch it to listen. I'm trying to do it where I recap the episode so that you can just follow along. And also Rob and I are just crazy. So yeah, I mean, don't feel that you need to do a lot of work for that podcast. Basically just turn it on and question why we are the way that we are. So yeah, follow that. Hope that you guys enjoy that as some offseason content. Follow me @shannongates. Subscribe to the International Survivor Hop-Up Speed so that when anything comes out, you'll get it. I know I've been kind of vaguely teasing this for a while because we really have had it in the works and I'm really glad that we finally got to speak to Tim about everything. But yeah, hope that you enjoyed that. Hope that you're having a nice offseason. Nice to catch up with you all. There's a little bit of a debrief of the interview together. Yeah, and thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time. Bye. Australian Survivor is saved. Survival in New Zealand. Survival. Survivor. Survivor. 21 South Africans. 12 ordinary Australians. 15 New Zealandese. 20 New Zealandese. Goma. 1 million pounds. Million. Million. Million. Million. Shkoli. 1 million. Million. Shkoli. 1 million. 1 million. 1 million. 1 million. 1 million. 1 million. 1 million. The adventure of a lifetime. The adventure of a lifetime. The adventure of a lifetime.