AUSGABE 193 (Momentum für die Ukraine – ist die Zeit reif für den Frieden?)

[Music] Good morning, Richard. Good morning, Markus. Where do I reach you? In a sound studio in the heart of Düsseldorf. Why? What happened to the fireplace? No internet. At this event there is no internet in the city, in which I live. Nice. Good that the digitalization of Germany is ahead. Yes, Germany in 2025. Well, that's when you live in such a remote place in the world. Like in the center of Düsseldorf. It's clear that you never have internet there. Oh man. But what really happens, cables through, right? The Russian agents try to destabilize the situation. That's what you read everywhere. Russian agents in Düsseldorf, on the way to the office, do you mean? Yes, exactly. To separate cables. Yes, but not with you. You are such a Russian friend. Yes, but they don't know friends and no enemies there. We are an influential podcast that can't be completely impossible for them. In any case, I am not Russian-friendly enough to not be attacked by victims. That's right. Oh man, that's not even possible. But I see you look fantastic. How? How did you get it? Yes, I churned light in the grey sun. Really? Yes, and that leaves a bit of color. No, I'm serious. What did you churn? I churned my terrace. That's good. Yes, I like it. It's such an incredibly peaceful work. Write nice texts. You know, everything is gray. Yes, with the brick over it and the sand-colored light. Yes, that's wonderful. I churn grass, that's fine. Yes. So you are really this classic lawnmower guy, who then also churns his grass and so on. Yes, I relax. I like to cook. How often a week do you churn your grass? I get an approximate idea of your pathologies. Well, I'll tell you, if he churns his grass on day 4, I'll be slowly nervous. Really? Yes. Do you churn every 4 days? No. You know what Reinhard Maynard would say. No. He even called his neighbor as a garden nazi. Because he constantly accolades his garden nazi. So he didn't call his neighbor himself, but he called his neighbor in a reading letter, he called his neighbor as a garden nazi. He hasn't churned it yet, but he just gave it on. That's good. Then he had a huge affair with him in a summer lodge 20 years ago. Really? Yes, there were no pictures and all journalists in front of his house. No. He churned his garden nazi for days. He churned his island and so on. I can still remember. Where was that? In Sylt. Ah, okay. But I understand that. I understand the obsession with the lawnmower. I understand that. Like I said, after day 4, I'll be slowly nervous and then I'll churn again. You know what I mean? But if you're gone now, you were in Senegal. Yes. There are relatively few peasants who can make you nervous. There must be no lawnmower. Yes, there must be no lawnmower. Exactly. And when you come back and you suddenly see that he hasn't done it for 7 or 10 days, what does he do with you? I'm looking forward to the free moment and then I'll start again. Okay. You know what lawnmowers, just like jogging, cooking, all these things, that's just the big thing. You don't think about it. It's just this empty and just let it go. I think that's great. I love that. Just do something that doesn't require any effort at all. But you can also say it the other way around. I have the feeling when I'm a terrace church, then I do something that's meaningful. That too. With the other things that you do, you don't even know whether that was in the end meaningful or not. Yes, but where you see such a practical success, then you put that sense of satisfaction right away. That's nice. And I always try to be a bit buddhist. I like that. Ah, okay. But you have to do something with it. So you have your lawnmower, which doesn't sound so contemplative. Yes, it is. But I actually wait for the electric lawnmower. I wait at all for the electric time. Richard, because you just said Senegal, do you know what was the most beautiful thing on the way back to Germany and Hamburg? The most beautiful thing was to be homeless. In a huge city like Dakar, where I think there are 6-7 million people in the area of entry, you are finished. If you breathe the whole day, the exhaust gas, the whole stuff that comes out of a clump of diesel. I beg you, this is the CO2 explosion from the whole Eppendorf in Almia. And you have to somehow, we have forgotten how it was. It was also like that with us. We have forgotten that. And that's why we have the feeling that we don't have to do anything anymore. But the rest of the world, where people can't afford new cars, that they live under completely different conditions, that is so exhausting. That makes the people ready, that makes the animals ready, that destroys you. You go to bed in the evening, completely Ramdösig somehow, because you are completely foggy from these exhaust gases. And you have the feeling that today I suck the whole day at an A3 exhaust, then I still breathe less and less when I have recorded next to it. That is the extent of the environmental pollution that we produce and leave behind. I don't think we have that on it, which dimension that is. Especially in these huge cities, the global south, as you say today. And there is a huge topic. I always thought about it, just as a vision. You have the sun there, it burns from the sky. That is at the entrance to Sahara, when you drive north. We were on the border to Mauritania. And there you have deserts. You also feel the desert. I love the desert, that's why it was so fascinating for me. And then you think to yourself, you dream of yourself and you think, ok, you can take photovoltaics everywhere. Do it without electricity, free of charge. And imagine you take all these stink bombs, one big hand, take it out of the city and replace it with small smart electric cars. What would that be for a different quality of life for the people? You can't imagine that. But isn't it like it used to be that you got rid of the exhaust to make it particularly loud? Of course, this masculine pride is the loudest of all. It was given to us in the past, that it plays a role there. They also make fun of life, a fun factor in this traffic. Yes, yes, yes. In Dakar, we saw young people driving by motorbikes in the opposite direction, and always calling out this noise. You throw a fox, that's what you call it. And Lukas knows himself from there. He was socialized. And that was incredible. They are like machine guns. And then they shoot with 30 men through the inner city. It's loud and annoying and so on. But the biggest part is very, very annoying cars on the road. I saw cars there again. You can see that people don't drive anymore. I made unimaginable pictures. We were on the road for shooting, because we were shooting for the topic of migration. We learned a lot from that. And that's just a means of movement. And it's also interesting, we've already seen that in Syria. There's this thing, for me, you see how poor a country is, among other things, the number of motorbikes. You can hardly drive a bike, because it's just too hot. And the motorbike is the car of poor people. And that's why you put all the cars on the motorbike. In Syria, I saw five people on a motorbike, on a small moped. They don't do that because it's funny, they do that because they have to. And you learn a lot. That's the situation. And as I said, congratulations. You're doing well in the juice. I love you, my new trained Richard. That's crazy. I hope that I can pass again in the old age. It's nice that you have the compliment of a little gift. I thought too much. White smoke hurts the saints. But something hurts me again. I was just about to say, you have to break it again. Richard, there's a lot going on right now. March in the office. Did a few interesting things. But above all in Istanbul, Ukraine, the war. And somehow the hope is connected again. That now finally something will happen with this peace. And we have Donnerstag today. And we're just reading again that the worst fears that Frederick Pleitgen and Paul Ronsheim had this week also with us in the broadcast on Tuesday, we switched them on. That was a very interesting moment because one of them was in Kiev when it happened. The ultimatum and then the reaction from the Kremlin. And Frederick Pleitgen was in the Kremlin for CNN. And he told us that from 9 o'clock in the morning Saturday to 3 o'clock in the morning at night, Sunday, he was in the Kremlin. And then we all passed him. So the Lavrov and the Putin. And then he sat on the press conference at 2 o'clock in the morning with Putin. 3 meters away from him. And he tried to discover traces of decay. And said, so the hope that he will have to thank someone because he simply can't do it healthily. They can bury us in our hair. He is amazingly fit at 2 o'clock in the morning. And they just tried to find a reaction. And the situation is that Stama, the British Prime Minister and Macron put an ultimatum on him and said that on Monday there will be a 30-day war peace. That's why on Monday Ukraine was really hard again. I think it was shot 130 times. There were three deaths again today. So Putin doesn't think about the dream of this war peace. That's not the way it is. He will immediately say, "I won't let you arrest me." So you make a basic course on the subject of diplomacy. You think it's wrong? Yes. So first of all good news. I heard that in summer 2022 at the time a call for peace negotiations was signed and said that this conflict could only be solved diplomatically. We have to do that. There were a lot of complaints and a lot of criticism that went in the direction of Putin. He can't be treated from moral reasons. And he doesn't want to be treated. We now have a new federal chancellor who said, "Now we have to act immediately in negotiations and try to play an active role as a European to end this war." That's the good news. And it was wonderful that it worked. And we also see, the Russians also listen to it. And there is one or the other view to get into the conversation. That's the good. The bad thing is, if you want to make peace negotiations, then both on the one hand have just named the four. So, "Merz & Co." Like Donald Trump used to say. "I'll show you how it doesn't work." I wonder, what is that for a top person who never learned how to treat him properly in his life? So, with Trump, it was like this. He played Nikolaus. He opened the bag and Putin said, "What do you want to have?" "You want the Eastern regions of Ukraine?" "Yes, you can have it." "You don't want a NATO contribution?" "Yes, you can have it." "You want the Crimea?" "Yes, you want the Crimea." "Of course, we accept it." I mean, what is this kind of negotiations? So, everything the other wants to get, and then we don't need to negotiate for a long time. So, "Merz, Tusk, Macron and Stammer" is the counter strategy. "I'll show you an ultimatum and press you." Of course, it doesn't work like this at all. Who would have let Putin press himself from now on? So, as if a ridiculous figure was standing in his own country, if he said, "Oh, you're threatening me with new sanctions." "30 days of weapons silence." Putin said, "Every time." "I'll talk to you about peace, but leave us alone." So, "Merz, Tusk, Macron and Stammer" is the counter strategy. "You want the Eastern regions of Ukraine?" "Yes, you want the Eastern regions of Ukraine?" "Yes, you want the Eastern regions of Ukraine?" "Yes, you want the Eastern regions of Ukraine?" "Yes, you want the Eastern regions of Ukraine?" "Yes, you want the Eastern regions of Ukraine?" "Yes, you want the Eastern regions of Ukraine?" 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This war will not be decided at the front. This war will be decided by the destruction of the resources of the other. There are two categories of resources. One is the material and the other is people. And this war would have won long-term from Russia because Ukraine no longer has enough soldiers to send to the front at some point. And in the end it will be decided who will win this war. And not in the question whether one or the other broken small mountaineering city will be conquered at the border or not. And what weapons do you use there? And that's why a lot of modern war equipment is not used for this liberating and terrorist war at the front. I don't know if the name Jürgen Lernhardt says something. Professor for the latest and newest history in Freiburg at the university. He made a book. And last year something came out. Or last year, I was 23, it was about wars and how you end them. And I find that very interesting because he says it again and again in the debate. This war and every war ends in negotiations. And he says that is not the case. He says there are wars that burn out in a certain way without there being regular negotiations. Other wars end with an absolute minimum of communication. So to speak, yes, almost frozen conflict. He says the example of Iran-Iraq war, almost ten years, 1980 to 1988. Which then simply went to the end with a UN resolution. So an explanation that no one has ever repeated. And he says something like the great peace negotiations. It is exciting to make a small historical comeback. The 30-year war. Yes, there is a lot of peace. Exactly. That is still a kind of lighthouse. It is often quoted. Why is that so, Richard? Well, after a 30-year war where you can't even imagine the end. Because this war had been independent. It was no longer about war. Why did you go there? A lot of different things at once. Of course it was about protestants against Catholics. And of course it was also about territorial influence. The Swedes were strongly involved. But it is of course a joke, to be there as a religious war. All wars, which were carried out as common religious wars. We are talking from 1618 to 1648. The decision made in this war was that the war had been independent. Because these upper orders, like Tilly and Wallenstein and so on. had huge armies that they had to supply. And the war enhanced the war. That was the famous sentence. That is, you had to repeat it over and over again to maintain your own army. And therefore the war was independent. That means you had to do the war to lead the war. And these soldiers couldn't just go home. Because they came from land lines that were completely destroyed. Where there was nothing left, and so on. Where their farmhouses were burned down. And then at some point the entire infrastructure in Central Europe had changed massively. And then you couldn't imagine that it even came to a peace. And that you then got the Western peace, the Münster. That it actually came to this in the end. That this complete conquest war, through a negotiation solution, which then also lasted for a very long time, was over. That is almost like a kind of historical world miracle. So it's almost like in Afghanistan at that time. If a modern term would be used for the Thirty Years War, it would have been his warlord war. That's exciting. It's being removed and used as a reference again and again. The Western peace, the Thirty Years War. Leonhard says that, so to speak, in the middle of the 15th century, it basically came to this that wars always changed with formal peace conferences, peace agreements and so on. After the First World War, more than 80% of the wars. But then this value suddenly begins to decline. And after the end of the Second World War, there suddenly was only 15%. So in the 20th century there were always fewer wars with peace conferences. And he says, even the Korean War, we're talking about the 1950s, the beginning of the 1950s to the 1970s, led to the Vietnam War, for example. All of them didn't go to classical peace conferences, but in better weapons peace agreements, which were broken down again and again, in Korea to the other side. The Korean War from the 1950s, it hasn't officially ended until today. The easiest negotiations always start when one country has completely thought that the other has won. Then there is a peace treaty. And to the conditions of the winner. You don't have to agree on that. That's not an agreement. That's capitulation. On the one hand, it is certain that peace has come to an end, and on the other hand, it is forced to be signed. And then you have a peace treaty. That's how the Germans get away after the Second World War. If you have a war of liberation, where none of them really wins, but none of them has won, then there is a very, very long negotiations. So if you think about it, the Vietnam War is ending in the East at the end of 1975. And at the beginning of the 1970s, you met in Paris and had negotiations, negotiations, negotiations and negotiations. You didn't do anything at all. Exactly. That's exactly what we're experiencing right now. To sum it up, we talked about Syria a while ago. And I drove there with the feeling that there is this new power. That's all. We already talked about it. Then you etiquette Islamists. Al Qaeda chefs. You suddenly etiquette rebels. And then they suddenly fit into the Western narrative. And then they say, "We are our people now. And we can rely on them now." And that you still have 10 million. Exactly. That you have invested 10 million dollars of money into the new power in Syria. You just forget that. And it's really bizarre how fast this goes. When you see these pictures, like Trump in Doha, I think it was, when this man now meets. Yes. Because the USA with 10 million dollars have still searched for money for a few weeks. According to the logic, is that the joke of the other or is it our joke? Yes, exactly. And I am, to be honest, very disillusioned from Syria about what this is about. And I feel, through the book by Leon Harte, he says exactly the same thing. A war, a conflict, like in Syria, dominates civil war constellations. It has elements of a civil war. It has elements of a war of religion. It has an internationalization through participation of many actors. And only the question, and it is very simple and so enlightening, but also somehow important to think about it, who is there? Who sits there at the end? Who is supposed to sign this paper and sign it? That is the question that has already been raised. And we saw that there. The role of the spinnaker, then you have all of them, religiously, you have so many different actors. Then you have this internationalization of the Iran mixture, the Israel mixture, the American mixture, the Russians, the Turks, they all mix there. And that everything on the back, these poor people, who basically do not know how it happened, and they are driven, so to speak, from one corner to the other. And the other reason is, and I would like to ask you, Richard, who could that be? He says, if you look at how, for example, the First World War ended, then you have to say, then you had a lot to do with the Americans and with the credibility of Wilson, the president. That means you need a whole, central, really trustworthy figure. And with a look at the Ukraine, for example. Yes, it doesn't exist. That's what it could be. It doesn't exist. Germany lost the First World War. So we have the structure again. We have won and defeated. Only because the defeated were not destroyed in their own country, other than in the Second World War. That means the morale of the people was not completely broken. And the awareness of the defeat was not yet in all heads. So you won the war, but you didn't have that completely destroyed Germany. There were millions of dead soldiers and so on. But they died mostly in France, not on German soil. But it was clear. I mean, the Supreme Leader has capitulated. Germany lost this war at the front. And that was the condition for the peace. And Wilson was the peace manager with his 14 points. That's an ambivalent role, you have to say that. Because on the one hand, the peace contract, on the other hand, was a dictatorial peace. And he led that in Germany the revenge blooms, which in the end led to the Second World War. You have often quoted Florence Gaub and talked about bad peace negotiations. Exactly. So the most common reason for war is a bad peace before. Bad negotiations, or as in the case of the Versailles contract, a dictatorial peace with which the defeated is not too happy and hardly he has returned himself in his resources again. So the immediate goal of Hitler was to tear down the Versailles contract and to do all this back-to-back. And that's a bad peace that can't happen. And now we have Ukraine in this situation. We don't have a winner. And we won't have one at a time. It's clear that the Russians have taken in 19% of Ukraine militarily. But as a great striker of the winner we are united. You can't see that. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers have lost. They haven't been so far as you expected. Military special operations. Instead of three years of fierce war. So we have a situation A. where there is no clear winner. There is a stronger and a weaker one, but there is no clear winner. The second is, as you just said in Syria, the internationalization of the conflict. The international alliance that has helped Ukraine to survive for three years also has its interests. And speaks with all these contracts and takes part in the initiative. So it all plays a big role. And it also has elements of civil war. Because it is about two brother nations. There are not two completely different cultures that meet each other. It is a war between two countries that have been in the Soviet Union for many decades. Parts of a common kingdom. But they have been a common country. And two Ukrainians were Soviet, three Ukrainians were Soviet state leaders. So the countries have also been connected to each other. Culturally, historically and on a family level. So it is also a special situation. And that is why I would expect quick peace negotiations. Quick results are not to be expected at all. And that is why it is from the thought right to say that we do not need a peace treaty that does not bring it. But we actually need a weapon peace. But why 30 days? I did not really understand that. So why was not the ultimatum? We will first make a final undamaged weapon peace treaty. Because the peace negotiations will take years. The peace negotiations in the Westphalian peace treaty took a long time. From Vietnam, I said, it took several years. In the Vienna Congress. In the Vienna Congress there was a comparison because Napoleon was defeated and the winners had to distribute the bear's field. But this difficult situation, if there is no clear winner, then these contracts last forever and three days. And that is why we should not have the expectation that Ukraine and Russia will sign a peace treaty in the next few months. But we should create conditions under which a long-term long-term weapon peace treaty will be signed on both sides. You said something very interesting earlier. It is clear that the Russians do not do that, because they do not want to stand there as steps on the world stage. They do not want to make fun of each other. That goes in the direction of Leonhardt, who also says who makes the besieges the best. He makes peace for the weapon peace treaty. So it is important that you, so to speak, give them the possibility no matter what they have broken. In some way to have a face. You could also simply say Sa'Lobb to sell this politically at home. Otherwise something happens in the first world war. The Germans lost their face in the Versailles contract. Then Hitler came with the great revenge and the Second World War. So it has to be a peace treaty for both sides. And if we think about it, how it is possible, we immediately know that this is a damn difficult task. How should Zelensky have his face if he loses his entire east oblast in Russia? How should Putin have his face if he sent hundreds of thousands of soldiers into this war? And in the end with something that comes out, we are going to freeze the frontline here. And at some point another American president comes and the Ukraine comes into the NATO and does not achieve anything and so on. And that is why this important issue is the post-war order. I would like to complement Leonhard and say that there is a stable peace if there is a hope for both sides a happy post-war order. And that is the big task for which we are standing now. To throw away a security architecture for Europe. By not standing against two friendly blocs. And that takes years of negotiations. That is the big historic task before we are standing. Interesting how the idea of peace has changed historically. The older approach that peace is simply the absence of military force and so on means that in the 20th century Leonhard described a very high expectation. Peace as a implementation of justice norms, persecution of war crimes and so on. All these things. And I didn't know that. He said that until the first World War it was different. Exactly. There was a formula since the end of the 30th war. Peace contracts, a formula from "well-behaved forgetfulness". Swarming over it. That is completely foreign to us today. That means something. That means something. That is well meant but it builds huge ears. When someone comes and says we have to do that. What exactly did you do there? When I read that I thought that is crazy what you encounter in every corner in Ukraine. You don't meet a Ukrainian who doesn't have any horror story to tell about Russia. And to overcome this. After the end of the Yugoslavian War it was the same. Every Bosnian could tell a horror story about Serbs and Croats and so on. Croats over Serbs and Serbs over Croats and so on. We know that the situation is not stable in the former Yugoslavia. But the wonder is that in the 10th century it always worked somehow. The good deeds and the good minds forget that. I think the most important example is Rwanda. When you think about it the majority, the Hutus the minority, the Tutsis in one year 800.000 people were killed. And not with an atomic bomb but with machetes. The rivers were full of corpses. There were children who killed their own parents when one of the parents was a Tutsi. There was a hatred when people were brought together in the church. Then the Hutus burned down the church and so on. And then with Paul Kargame a Tutsi, after this war a Tutsi in Rwanda. And what I think in Rwanda is that there was not a huge increase but the peace and stability as after the war after the 30th century was forgotten. Kargame is still in power and we all know that a dictator developed from this example. This is always the same mist if someone is too long in power without mistreatment loses his rage. Kargame is a very good example for this. But we also have this example of the violent forgetfulness. This is something in the situation like today. You can't imagine that the Russians, the Ukrainians will be punished for this brutal attack. I can't imagine that. But the question is normally it takes something like a decade until it grows out somewhere. Yes, I know where the encounter is. Again and again this idea this idea when we have been in Russia for a few years. The Russians are talking about the great Fatherland War. It is the Great Fatherland War. And they see themselves as the ones who liberated Germany from the Nazis. Yes, it is interesting. We have to say that. First of all, that you see the Great Fatherland War. 27 million dead on the ground of the Soviet Union at the time of the Second World War. Yes. Until Berlin marches through and so on. They were not the only ones who liberated Germany from the Nazis. But they have contributed to this. If you look at the maps around the 8th of May how it was taken into the teeth and how long it took until we have the knowledge that it was actually a liberation and there was no defeat. But in Russia I have heard that again and again. And when we started to ask after the Second World War they said to the simple people on the street "Let it be. It is good. You have done a great job at that time. They did not forget the 27 million dead. But it is good now. I was really impressed by the ability to forgive and let it be good. It is also a deeply Christian thought if you want to. And on the other hand, this brutal that you see on a Putin who has obviously never finished with it. It happened in '89 that the Soviet Union was just a pig. You see that on a Trump now, who is the rebellious until it's magic. I think many parts of Trump's politics you understand, with Rach's search that you see a Benjamin Netanyahu. I also have to say in this context we are talking so incredibly much about peace in Ukraine. Only as a member of the Klammern we have made a broadcast this week I think it is scandalous and more and more scandalous how we the war and what happens to your gas just blind out. And how you live as a politician and that's something I really I'm sorry if I'm a little emotional but I have incredibly enough of that you hear official loudspeakers who loud state resorts and an Israeli head of government always have the opportunity to visit Germany, even if with an international court order and so on. But we also challenge the same from the Mongolia when Putin tries to say "Why don't you take it?" He will also with an international court order I understand the historical dimension I understand it all. But what I don't understand and what I can't accept as a citizen of this country is that you are the same people the same people not the same people with different opinions the same people who you meet and who tell you in front of the camera is all defense policy that serves the security of Israel I can't recognize war crimes for example in Gaza then when the cameras look out and say of course we have a big topic of course we have to find war crimes of course we have to talk about if there is suddenly hunger as a weapon why are we not in the position to clearly and clearly say as Macron did this week in a big interview in a French television I understand that a German Chancellor can't talk like Macron I understand that but there is still something in between and this kind of double morality what you experience on travels when you are in the Middle East that is what I think incredibly much credibility costs and I also want to say something it's not like people in Syria come to you and say "Ah, you are German and this double morality and you are delivering weapons to Israel" but this is very fine the criticism it's very carefully presented that's not the prejudice it's not like you can only the people are very comfortable in the position to differentiate but they are very careful and say "do you really think it's good your position shouldn't be in Israel not Israel but this government boss and you don't have the feeling that if you are delivering weapons that you are involved in war I mean, today the report that three poor Ukrainians died because of Putin while we are talking about this while we are talking about this sentence people died in Gaza in the last night 80 people and it is somehow we see this grey and I always think how should this go I think it's forgettable I think that media plays a big role what you are recording today is different I just had a rescuer from Berlin Thorsten Schröhr a very impressive man who was in power in the 4th time in Gaza and he says "then try to free the Greeks and then 400 others die and he told you of a police car that should be hit there that was obviously an Israeli target they saw it over the drone and said that in this police car there are probably Hamas terrorists it can be anything and he describes this helplessness and the helplessness he says "if you just wait three minutes until this car is gone from the marketplace then you have the police car but you are no longer on the marketplace but you will be shot on the marketplace and everyone around is dead and this is this helplessness that we see there and not only against the Palestinian civil population and he tells very impressively that a majority of these dead are innocent children and are women these are not Hamas terrorists hopefully too but you meet a lot of children and women and this is what is no longer acceptable and I think what is that for a son of a bitch and for a rum around something that has to be clear to everyone and what you have to think about is this helplessness against both sides it is not only this helplessness against the population in the Gaza Strip it is also this helplessness against the own Gaisel and that is why there are weekly demonstrations against him and this way with these poor people who are still in the Gaza Strip to go around Yes, I see it similar to you and I wonder where are the Woodrow Wilson who are the intermediaries where are the initiatives of the European politicians who are very friendly with Germany with the moral index to defend themselves this is a very big problem a value-oriented foreign policy a value-oriented foreign policy must orientate itself at these values in the center of its policy and there it knows no exception Yes, so that means when certain assumptions of humanity my value of cosmos, of freedom, of humanity of self-determination and the right of the people then it has to be exactly like that for every country of the earth you can't say, well, there I see it a little differently and there I see it very strictly then an value-oriented foreign policy is unbelievable and then it makes itself in the eyes of its opponents Yes, it is also because you are talking about war targets Daniel Gerlach has pointed out in the program really intimately known as the director of Zenit that is a exciting magazine an east magazine who says Netanyahu has never said that war target is to liberate the Gaisels and then ends this war but what is the actual war target? Yes, you have to treat it seriously and there are in Israel many people who also say it is relatively what happened on the 7th of October is in no way, I also don't do that and I understand how deep this trauma is of course but the legal term of the relationship the question what is the right of the people the question is why do you as a force that goes into somewhere and for the certain rules then in combat actions are raised as a soldier you are allowed more than as a civilist and you won't be drawn to account if you bring the opponent a Hamas terrorist in the fight but at the same time you also have the task to take care of the protection of the civil population and you can't go there and say we have been cutting them for 70 days we are cutting them off and not from everything a little bit from everything from food and drinks from everything that is necessary when it comes to medication we haven't even talked about it yet that is something and what it leads to I don't know we are well known to the international law when someone as Friedrich Merz says and I know that this is a very complicated statement that probably wouldn't be official if Netanyahu comes to visit Germany it has to be possible I understand the big ideas behind it in a political dimension but Friedrich Merz is a lawyer who knows in the case of the Berlin State Court the independent court who knows who says please let it go who does that so you mean Merz doesn't have anything to decide in the case of not I don't know if the Berlin Justice Senator Ms. Babenberg would go there and would say please let it go I doubt it our country doesn't work like that it is good that there is a huge part and that things run independently from each other if it doesn't work like that it is happening in America there is a trial there is a trial and then the White House sits there and says "I don't like it" I don't care in the case of this Manes Garcia now in El Salvador and where they just say we are no longer responsible he is now in El Salvador and in El Salvador you say it is not our topic because who is that and then the court says please bring him back to America to his family because it is not proven that the part of the evil cartels or a gang or whatever no, we just don't do that and if we can't agree on that then it will be difficult with democracy yes, I agree Richard, thank you very much yes, thank you too and we have a Thursday we don't know what will happen in Istanbul but I can only repeat the peace process will take years what we have to achieve now is a permanent war in Stillsland and that is the target and the development of ideas of the post-war order the more productive ideas we have the more likely the war will take place and I have to say it is so sad and tragic that the Americans fall out remember this again exactly 30 years ago I don't know if you have presented it 30 years ago the Americans got peace on the Balkans that was an incredible diplomatic power, a top power and that these Americans that you need and at times like this that they fall out that has something tragic but on the other hand we can say positively that this is the job in which the Europeans have to grow so, maybe that's the point and it would be a great power if under the participation of Friedrich Merz we get a permanent stable post-war order that empowers us to give billions of weapons you got it surprising new ideas the NATO is no longer only 3% of the pro-inland product but 1.5% plus so these are such incredible sums with which you could not only conquer hunger in the world but also make Germany future-friendly it must not happen that we have no other choice than to spend so much money on equipment what would be much cheaper would be good ideas for a stable post-war order according to the Ukraine war that would help us save billions good sentence thank you very much see you next week bye [BLANK_AUDIO]