Auron Macintyre

What's up, what's up, everybody? Welcome to a brand new episode of part of the problem. Quick announcement before we get into today's show. The next stops on the road are Salt Lake City and Las Vegas. Comic Dave Smith.com for tickets on that head out this weekend. Salt Lake City and Las Vegas. I got Robbie the Fire Bernstein with me. Great clubs. Gonna be some fun shows. Okay, so welcome back to the show. The great Oren McIntyre for anybody who is not familiar with Oren, he hosts a fantastic show over at The Blaze. You're still on The Blaze, right? Yes, sir. Yes, yeah, there's and I really, really highly recommend the show. I don't watch that many podcasts, but I do very regularly love to get Oren's take. And I highly recommend his book, The Total State, which was excellent. I really genuinely, should read that book. Okay, thank you so much for coming back on the show. And thank you so much for agreeing to do this today. Let's get autistic. How do I even, how do I even introduce this conversation? It does, it seems to me that we are, we're almost like like taking part in some cycle of a never ending, like, like, kind of pointless back and forth of this is the, hey, we need more right wing art, like a perennial discussion. Like it just comes up every six months and you have to debate it again. And and you know it's pointless. And yet I feel honored to be a participant in this like neo, it's like there's something very neo paleo about the conversations that that me and you have that I really do enjoy. So essentially, I guess there was like a, it was trending on on Twitter, like a big kind of conversation about libertarianism libertarians. Um, this, of course there was, I guess I had an interaction with a daily wire employee who I'm not, was not probably familiar with prior. She was kind of trash and libertarians. There is something where a lot of people were kind of having these conversations. I guess I would start by saying I think you're the best guy for me to have this conversation with or one of the best guys because there is something where I just like and respect you and I appreciate your point of view. And also there's just something about a daily wire employee saying something about libertarians where I'm like, no, no, you shut up. But I'd like to hear what Orin has to say on the topic. So broadly speaking, what do you think this whole fight is about to you? What is the point that you were trying to make when you were weighing in on it? Well, you and I have had this discussion before. I think literally it was the last time I was on your show was to discuss this exact topic and it was funny because everyone got really angry because we spent most of the show agreeing. It was supposed to be this big knockdown drag out and then we're like, yeah, that's about right. Yeah, we largely agree on all this. But the continuation of this discussion that you and I have had is libertarianism is many things to many people. The label is a mess. You guys have a particular fondness for that label, which I totally understand. And so my point as it has been to many people, including by the way, my own faction of conservatives, which I think is a stupid term that probably needs to go away is stop being so married to the label and find out what you're actually doing and who your friends really are. So the conservative movement theoretically contains me and James Lindsay. Right. In practice, there's no way that James Lindsay and I occupy the same political movement. There is obviously a difference, a world of difference, a radical difference between our two political worldviews. And so when you say this is what conservatives believe, are you talking about me or are you talking about James Lindsay? And depending on which one of us you're talking about, what you're saying conservatives believe could be radically correct or radically incorrect. The same spectrum exists for libertarians. And so because this is such a wide spectrum, when people make generalizations about libertarians, they might be entirely right about 60% of libertarians and wholly wrong, about 40% of libertarians. And the problem is that because libertarians continue to be entirely attached to the title libertarian, I can say something that is wildly correct about Cato and is wildly incorrect about Mises, while saying libertarian and the Mises guys will show up to say, that's not what libertarians believe. And the Kato guys will show me say, that's exactly what libertarians believe. And who are you talking to? What conversation are you having? And so I, my point that I was making to all the libertarians who I love is if you insist on holding on to this term, you must do what I have done with Republicans and conservatives, which is just to say, yeah, whatever bad thing you say about them, you're correct, right? Like if someone comes to me and says the Republican Party is nothing but a war machine that serves for an interest, I'll be like, yes, that is correct. If you say that conservatives are entirely incapable of understanding politics in a way that can defend the nature of our country and the continuation of its traditions in the future. And they've essentially served, conserve nothing. I will say that is correct. Now, I believe that there are real conservatives who actually do want to conserve our country and its way of life and keep it out of foreign wars. And those are the people I am aligned with. But I'm not going to lose my mind. I'm not going to flip out. I'm not going to say, how could you say this? You ignore it. You know, if you point out that the vast majority of conservatives are just like vomiting, whatever's on Fox News, right? And so all I'm asking for libertarians to do is have the same mentality. Okay, fair enough. Now I will say I, I find all of that, yeah, I'm going to piss people off again. I find all of that to be entirely reasonable. So I'm not, yeah, I mean, so I pretty much agree with you. I may not agree that we should have banned in the word, but I certainly agree with the rest of the spirit of what you just said there. I think that if you were to say to me, if somebody had said, you know, libertarians believe in open borders and libertarians, you know, I don't even know. Like I would, I would certainly grant that in the broader picture, right? Like in terms of like a friend to enemy distinction type thing, which might be a little oversimplified at times. But in open borders libertarian, who they're not too happy with, I did publicly call them worse than communists, which really is a dig in our circles. A lot of them still hate me for that. But in the broader friend to enemy distinction, like they're on the enemy side, whereas you're on the friend side, because in the bigger picture of liberty, if I care about liberty, well, if this, this cancels out everything else, you know what I mean? Like it doesn't matter if you're going to destroy the nation and we have nothing to even talk about here. And but so like if so, so, so number one, I grant the distinction there and that there, there's a real issue. Number two, but like if you were to say, hey, the Kato guys have a bunch of open borders, people there. And hey, there's even a couple open borders, people lingering around the Mises Institute. And or if you were to say that the libertarian party embarrasses itself all the time, or if you were to say that they were an ineffective, listen, I'm not like your example with the Republicans, if you make a correct statement, I'm not going to tell you it's not correct, I might, if you said this about libertarians, point out that's the frauds at Kato, not the great libertarians who have the, you know, like, okay, but so for example, what I'm responding to with the lady at the daily wire was her, like the claim she's making isn't even really true about our gaze. And look, I'll defend our gaze on this, okay? Now listen, we have our gaze. Now the, the advantage and disadvantage that libertarians verse reactionary or neoreactionary right wingers is your gaze are always closeted, whereas our ours are very open. And it's an issue we have. It's not great. And I certainly don't want, but the truth is like, if I'm going to be honest in the same way, if I say the Iranians weren't making a nuclear weapon, I'm not defending the Ayatollah. I mean, I guess in a very strict sense, I am, but I'm just sticking up for the truth. I'm just saying, hey, this is what I think is the truth. It's not a matter. And in the same sense, look, dude, it's not really the idea that libertarians are more motivated by legalizing degeneracy. And that is the only thing that gets them animated is not true about obviously my wing, not true about Kato, not true about reason, not true about the libertarian party. It's not even true about Chase Oliver, if we're being even slightly honest in this conversation. And so from my perspective, it's like, okay, well, like that actually isn't, that doesn't apply to anyone in libertarianism. So like you're, I could grant all of your points, but still think it be dishonest to take a, what would be like a 1% of conservatives and point to that. Like, yes, obviously, if I'm pointing to the Neocons, that's a faction that's had real power that has really done a thing and called themselves conservative along the way. I think there's an asymmetry there where like that actually isn't what libertarianism is all about. You'd have to find like some sex worker identified as a libertarian advocate for that to be their main issue. Who are we talking about here? All right, guys, let's take a moment and thank our sponsor for today's show, which is Bub's natural. Let me ask you, fellas out there a question. Do you feel like your strength or muscle tone is harder to maintain than it used to be? Does recovery from workouts, runs, sports, or even just a long day take longer? Do you feel like you need more supports than focused, energized, and mentally sharp? 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That's not what the libertarian movement is in its totality. And again, this is the problem. If you have Greg Gutfeld and Bill Mar and Jeff Deist all describe themselves as libertarian, what does the word mean? That's the real issue. Pit bulls and golden retrievers are both dogs. But if we say all dogs are violent, the question is what dog are you talking about, right? Because it's a very different thing. And so I think the main problem is just that liberty is not a sufficient political access for organization. Liberty is not an end. Liberty is a beautiful manifestation of building virtue in a society that enables it to operate with minimal amounts of political oversight. One of the guys I love best on this is Bertrand Dejuvenal, who also informed Olive Hans, Hermann Oppas, democracy of the guy that failed. He's basically just pulling like 75% of that from Bertrand Dejuvenal. Dejuvenal is printed by liberty press, like he's often considered a libertarian at some level. And Dejuvenal's point is that societies become free because basically they're Aristotelian because they follow the similar telos. And because everyone in the society has the same end, has the same brision of the good. And they become virtuous enough to pursue that good. They don't then need a government to step in and correct them because they all agree. It's not that everyone's a beautiful individual following their own path. It's that individually they have a desire to reach a collective good that is more powerful than the state. And therefore, the state is unnecessary to organize them towards that good. And so I think that's actually the access on which we should organize politically. And in that access, Dave, you and me are allies and Chase Oliver and James Lindsay are enemies. Even though Chase Oliver is a libertarian and theoretically James Lindsay is a conservative, we both agree more with each other and more allied. We are more likely to build a successful political coalition than we are with those two men, even though they technically fit under our party umbrellas. And so all I'm saying is we need to rethink the way in which we are orienting our political alliances. >> Yeah, I mean, so they are again, or man, this is really going to happen to us again, but yeah, they are, they are, I completely agree. And this is part of the reason why I've stepped back from involvement in the libertarian party is just that look, there's always different moments in time. And political movements always have to be a reflection of like where the stars are aligned at that moment. And as you said, the idea that the coalition can be between open borders and closed borders libertarians just doesn't make any sense just on that issue alone, but also to a lot of the deeper stuff you're talking about. Look, I'm not going to say there isn't something to that. In fact, I have often made the point that I question the sincerity of the libertarianism of many of the left libertarians because I think if they ever actually got the implication of the degenerate culture that they kind of envision and saw that the necessary government bailouts that would be necessary for that kind of like, I'm not sure they'd oppose it. I'm not sure I believe that. That being said, we can't just psychoanalyze away everybody and not take them on like what they claim their big issue is. And look, just saying chase Oliver was like open borders, I think as fair to say was one of his number one issues, that would be fair. Being anti-war was one of them being, but like, no, I don't really think it's fair to say that like just legalizing pot and prostitution was his number one issue. And by the way, we could get into those issues at some point. But I would also say I do, I certainly agree with the spirit that that liberty, like, I don't know if I'd exactly agree with the idea that everybody has to have the same goal, but like you're either going to have internal governance or external governance. You're either going to have systems in a society that govern the people that are not state actors, that are other forces, which can be religious institutions or cultural norms or things like that, or you're going to have it from the government. And so, right, like even if the libertarian believes that degeneracy ought not be met with the club of a cop, the libertarian is still smarter to oppose that degeneracy. It's still nothing that should be celebrated because of course, it just reduces the the likelihood of us ever actually seeing liberty into any increased degree materialize. I want to ask, do you not think so agreeing with all of that? And in fact, I'm the guy who's like very excited about potential of like some Republican, not a part of this administration picking back up the America first movement. I don't necessarily think there's a reason why so many people coalition together to support Donald Trump. I certainly think this is one of the reasons why me and you are very allied in this way. Like I've certainly done my best to blast those open border libertarians to make alliances with the Tucker Carlson's of the world to kind of be like, look, we need to kind of all get together on this pace. But when you see right now, and I'm really curious, you're kind of broader thoughts on this. When you see that because there's the context of this whole conversation, which is that midterms are coming up, the Republicans are about to get destroyed for betraying all of these principles. And it's not what I'm doing to him. What do you mean, Dave? Don't black pill? It's going to be great. Okay. We're going to crush all of them. Yeah, all these guys, you're a trader. I'm a panicking. But then also they are the ones who are worried about what we are saying is going to bring down everything. And it's the thing with libertarians. It's enough to drive you crazy, man. It's like, we're somehow completely irrelevant and also responsible for all of the problems. And so, you know, like, if you get a bunch of degeneracy after 20 years of an experiment of like more government spending and more money printing than ever, they go, see, you libertarians want to legalize degeneracy. You're like, dude, this, I mean, come on. And so like, while you're watching someone at the daily wire, who's like, now everyone's going after libertarians, after this administration has bent over backwards to spit on us for the last year and a half. I'm very, but I'm like, I don't know. I just, I do find something wild about this that like, look, dude, the problem here is not that we did too much libertarian shit. Now is it? Or, and, you know, the problem isn't that we came in here and doze really got their way and chopped up the government or something, or we kept the promises of no new wars. Like, so it's just something to see this thing crashing and burning and then them trying to like turn around and blame all of us. It's, I don't know, it's maddening. >> I mean, no one is more currently incensed about the state of the Republican Party than I am to be fair. Like, the level of attacks I have received for voicing the obvious disaster that we are kind of witnessing and who is responsible, ultimately, for it has been hilarious to say the least. However, I will attempt to defend, I like Megan and I will attempt to defend her point here ever so slightly. I think what she's reaching for is really Patrick Denien's assertion in why liberalism failed. And in Denien's book, he says that what you notice about liberalism is that it's always winning on both sides of the issue. So for instance, on the right side, with Then we are talking about kind of what gains you ultimately see. It's always in the direction of legalized sports gambling, legalized weed, legalizing gay marriage. These are the liberties that are won, right? And that's what happens. What never wins in the marketplace is the libertarian idea of cutting taxes or reducing government spending or getting rid of the welfare state or stopping invading random countries in the Middle East because someone else wants to own Lebanon. Like we always are in this scenario where the libertarian victories are the worst possible victories. They're open borders, they're gay marriage, they're drugs, they're sports gambling. They're never the things that would actually like reduce the power of the state. So over and over again, the libertarian wins are things that actually increase the size of government, increase government spending. I mean, how much, to your point, how many of these left libertarians would survive if government stopped paying for prep medication, right? What's the average lifespan of a left libertarian without government-funded anti-AIDS cocktails, right? That's a real question and the libertarian movement never solves that problem, but it does ensure that people in my state can now endlessly gamble at slot machines on their phones at 3 in the morning, right? Now, is that libertarian as like a party's fault? No, obviously not. They don't, we have enough power for that. That's American Adelson's fault, right? Like that's like, that's what's happening there, actually. But the arguments are libertarian to be fair. Like those are the arguments that are made that these is pro-liberty. You don't have the right to predict these people's freedom. You're using the state to tell people what they can and can't do with their bodies. All of these classic libertarian arguments. So the assertion that libertarians as such are driving any part of the political changes of the United States is just obviously incorrect. You can't simultaneously tell people libertarians are relevant and also making all the political decisions inside the United States. That just has, you need a lot of cognitive dissidents to hold that position. But there is some truth to the fact that the only libertarian arguments that win in the marketplace seem to be the ones that increase licentiousness and grow the power of the state and feels dependent on the state by reducing their virtue. All right, guys, let's take a moment and thank our sponsor for today's show, which is, of course, Body Brain Coffee, the brainchild of Lewis Jay Gomez, the great Lewis Jay Gomez. Well, if you may, no testosterone levels have been declining for decades, as a people were more stressed, we sleep like shit, we sit around all day, and none of that is helping. 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BodyBrainCoffee.com, that is the website, BodyBrainCoffee.com, and the promo is Dave 20 for 20 percent off your entire order. Please go there, BodyBrainCoffee.com, promo code Dave 20 for 20 percent off. All right. Let's get back into the show. Well, if that was the point she was making, I wouldn't have had a problem with that point. But I mean, she said something else, you know what I mean? She made a different claim, which is that this is the thing that animates libertarians. That's a totally different claim than the liberties that the state has granted have only been liberties toward destructive behavior, like that I would agree with. However, I do think there's also like a point to be made here. And I do think that this is weaponized very unfairly at times by right wingers against libertarians that like, well, what's, okay, so Rachel Wilson said to me the other day on Twitter that like her, she goes, well, the problem libertarianism has, like the problem the philosophy has is that you got to have all this stuff that you believe is legal, that you believe is wrong, and still say it ought to be legal. That's the libertarian problem, like in my philosophy, I could allow all the stuff that you want to allow and just not allow the prostitution and gambling and stuff or whatever, you know, like that. And it's like, okay, well, first of all, there's really two responses to that, like first of all, yes, you do have that problem. Everyone has that problem, every governing, like, you know, like unless you're advocating Kim Jong-un totalitarianism or some, yes, you have the problem, or maybe I could just get to the right of you and say, I think we should make it a felony to cover the neighbor's wife. What would you just, you're saying that should be legal? Like we could get into goofy territory here. And then the second point is that, look, man, like it really, like I could be with you on everything you just said, I could, you know, I can even support some awfully right wing policies, but the idea that like I could also go, dude, I just, I've known so many people like this. This happens all over the country, dude, that people like kids, dude, get their lives fucking ruined for the crime of some drugs. Drugs aren't good. They're not good for society. It's not something that I want to see more of, but like I know people who like literally dude, like they had a little bit of dirt weed and maybe a little bit of acid on them. And they got five years of probation, essentially made into a slave of the state. And then they got in trouble seven different times over literally just like being out later than they were supposed to going somewhere without permission, losing their job when that can get you locked up. And like I look around and see the state does just like ruin people's lives like this. I don't find, like opposing that is not the same thing as I'm for the degeneracy. You know, like there's, that's like a cop out. That's a low resolution response to say like, oh, your issue there is that you just think weed is great. Like, that's not the issue. The issue there is that I think the state authoritarianism is worse. And while I agree with you, I would love to see some liberty gains in more productive economic areas. There is something positive about if there's a reduction in the state ruining people's lives like that. And it doesn't, there's no reason why it has to come along with progressive prosecutors saying also we're going to criminalize self-defense and we're going to criminalize you having a security guard in the store or allowing people to car jack you all types of property crimes. Those things don't have to be married. It's just that the left is so horrible that they married them, you know. Well, first, I think that the number of people who are having their lives ruined because they had like a small, a joint somewhere in their luggage is approaching zero at this point. That's true. But still a little bit. Right. There is a, you know, there was maybe a case for this 50 years ago, but I'm sorry, I just don't know. I know lots of people who are flying through airports, you know, with, you know, no, no, but I didn't say, I didn't say someone had, yeah, but I didn't say a joint in your pocket. Like I'm not, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying like a kid was dealing some weed and maybe had like a little bit of acid in there too. He was, you know, had some, had, had a three bricks of Mexican weed and a little bit of acid. Okay, that's bad drugs are really bad or whatever this kid, he's a, he's a 21 year old kid who's in Texas. They will ruin your life, dude. You're looking at 25 years in prison for this shit. Go look up what the, what the dude, they still, and even if they don't actually give you the 25 years, they're going to give you 10 years probation, all types of restriction. That stuff does still have, I know, I know a ton of people who have, and dude, like I'm a productive member of society. I'm a good husband and a good father. Like I live a very conservative life. I know friends of mine who never got the chance to get there, dude, just because the state ruined their life. Treated them like they were a murderer for the crime of having some drugs and salinum, you know. So this comes down, I think, again, to conceptions of how liberty is actually formed. Like we have to have good anthropology to get good political theory. And so one of the things, as we're talking about populations and the way that they live, if you look at something like Singapore, right, like it's basically a backwater, and it becomes a, like, thriving capitalist, metropolis, like just a wonder of the world. How does it do that? Well, Lee Kwan you recognizes that they've got too many ethnic minorities, religious minorities, they can't work together. They don't have a community. They don't have a telos in the Aristotelian sense to which they are oriented. And so the only way that you're going to get all these people to go from, like, barely using indoor plumbing to creating one of the, like, most impressive and safe and wealthy paradises in the world is just ruthless authoritarianism, right? Like you spit gum out on the street, you get cane. You have drugs in Singapore. You are just killed, like putting ruined your life. No, your life ends, right? But guess what? You can put a woman in a bikini in the middle of, you know, the night in Singapore and have her walk across the entire thing, and she's going to be perfectly safe. Because- Till she gets that cane. Right. Unless she spits out gum. In which case, you will have a big problem on her hands. But my point is that there is a way to take a diverse group of people with no shared identity shared belief system and put them in a society that is successful and prosperous and has all. All the things that many libertarians would appreciate economically, and that is strict brutal authoritarianism. If you're not going to do that, then you need something else that binds people together in a way that orients them towards the good, that does not require that level. And the answer is generally ethnic and cultural homogeneity. That's actually what usually produces us. So the phenomenon you're discussing when it comes to the state and liberty is one of the scale. It's trying to govern too many people who are two different simultaneously. And when you do that, you have to produce strict routine outcomes for particular behaviors. Because you don't have the ability to use nuance, to use that flex that you'd have if you had an understanding, a smaller understanding of who you were and what you believe, where you could deal with individual cases. And so that creates mandatory minimums and everything else that we need because we can't rely on judges to lock people up for crimes on a regular basis. We have to mandate. We can't let the have discretion anymore. And so one of the ways to solve this is not more or less power of the state, more or less regulation on any given thing. It's returning the country to a structure in which we share a general idea of who we are, what we should be and where we're going. And when we have that, there's a lot more play in the joints. You can let the judge say, you know what, man, there's a difference between this kid and some guy who killed five people because he's trying to protect his heroin stash. So maybe I can dial down, you know, the penalty on this guy. But when you can't trust the judges to do that because you know, for instance, that like the average black jury will ultimately, you know, not convict black people when white juries will convict white people, well, then you have a really serious problem with how you have to run your state. And a lot of the problems you're discussing are downstream, not of the size of the state or the philosophy of the state. It's down for extreme to what you have done to the population and the scale, which you're operating the state in general. Yeah, I mean, I certainly think there's a lot to that. I mean, I don't know, you know what I mean, like it's not that in the 1960s, when there was a much more, you know, homogenous country, we wouldn't still have issues with state authoritarianism, but I do think that it's absolutely true that the, when you, you know, elect to transform your country rapidly into a multicultural multiracial society, you're going to have a lot of problems that come along with this. And in fact, I did want to talk to you about this topic because I did, I did a show on this. I saw you, I saw I part of your show, or maybe you were being interviewed by someone else, but I saw you commenting on this and there it was this, this scandal that in a way was a very, you know, it's just one of those little things that was very illustrated, that illustrated kind of this bigger theme. And I'm talking about the, what was it, the, the university there in Austin, which one was it again? So it was UT, there's this picture of all these Indians in the stance. And one of the things that's so interesting about it, right, is that this isn't a picture of immigrants who are not assimilating. This is like the most assimilating you could be. And so it's almost, it's like, it, like, controlled for one factor and then let you look at it and go, yeah, but still, hey, does anyone have a problem with this? Is this like, why is this happening when the will of the people is so clearly against this? And the governing administration is the one who ran against all of this. And one, this historic victory for the second time. And so like, what do we, and then, of course, I've seen some popular commentators like Ben Shapiro and Jeremy Boring kind of weigh in on how there's no problem in here, what on, you must just be a bigot if you've got any issue of this. And I think this goes right to the core of kind of your like, raison d'être for being a political commentator, which is like this, the idea of the propositional nation, verse, anything in addition to that. Is it purely just that, or is there, is there a people and a land and a place and a culture and a content? Are you telling me we're devoid of all of that? And I don't think I'm straw manning when I say that, yes, that is their position. Like I genuinely don't think I'm straw manning to say that, yes, that is Jeremy Boring and Ben Shapiro's position. Like America is America man and if you pick up the Declaration of Independence, you're America now. Now, I am somebody who very much believes, in fact, I think it's almost indisputable. I don't even think this is a belief. It might even be a truism that ideas had a very important, you know, impact on America and the country we are. And the fact that we've become the country we are and we were started with the Declaration of Independence is not a complete coincidence. Or is a relationship between that, ideas had a big cart in shaping this country. But the idea that that's it, the idea that America was not a real place and a real group of really existing human beings in time. Like even for somebody who loves the ideas and the Declaration of Independence, I would argue quite a bit more than Ben Shapiro. I just find this view to be like removed from reality and I'm curious of your thoughts on it. Yeah, I mean, they obviously don't believe this for a second because if you turn to Ben or to Jeremy and you said, Hey, I'm going to take 10 million Palestinians, they all converted to Judaism. They all believe in the ideas of Israel. They are 100% committed to the religion, the faith, the culture. And we're just going to swap them out for Jewish people, right? It's going to be the same. They have the same ideas. It's going to be exactly the same. You know, if you notice that half of the universities in Israel are now filled with Palestinians instead of ethnic Jews, well, you're just a racist because they hold the same ideas. How are you supposed to pretend like there's no difference here? Like they would immediately understand the thing. So what they have to do is construct a specific and special identity for America. That is in a literal sense leftist in its entire construction. They believe in an eternal revolution in the leftist sense. It's a communist leftist deconstructions revolution, but it's for American identity. American identity is constantly changing. It's always evolving, you know, what is an American? What is a woman? Who can say, right? Like these definitions are constantly evolving. And so we just have to kind of have this loose like completely freely chosen understanding. Just like you choose if you can be a woman, you can choose whether or not you're an American. And that's all there is to it. And that's what makes America special because it's different, you know, it's not like any of these old world construction, which again is the most progressive idea you could have about identity in the world. And so the thing I'm trying to get these people to understand and I understand they're not going to get it because they're literally financially invested and not getting it. And there's a very good adage about people and what they're paid to believe. But the point is we didn't arrive at our understanding of English common law because we like tested all the other systems of law around the world and thought that was the best one. And I have a system of English common law because the country came from anglos, they thought it was the best system because it's the one they grew up with because it's the one they believed in because their ancestors built it. It's the one we inherited. And that's why we think it's the best. And this is important because ideas and people are not separable. Again, I don't know if we have different opinions on this, but I have a lot of people tell me we need to ban Sherela on the United States and like, yeah, whatever go for it. But it's not going to work because it turns out that Sherela is what Muslims do. You get enough Muslims together, you get Sherela. Because that's actually just how their way of being manifests itself legally. Just like if you get enough anglos together, you get Anglo common law. Now, if you move enough Muslims into the United States, it doesn't matter if you ban the law or not, you'll get Sherela because that's what comes with them. And the same is true of Indians. Again, you don't have to hate any of these people. But if you bring enough Indians into the United States, I don't really care if they bought the right t-shirt or doing the right hand sign at the football game, they're going to bring their beliefs about government and society with them. That's how it works. They're going to build temples to their foreign gods. They're going to impose their foreign understanding of how government should run, by the way, India wildly socialist, you know, was allied with the USSR. When Indians come here, they vote overwhelmingly leftists like every part of this is predictable and understandable. Again, you don't need to hate a single person. The Chinese live the way the Chinese live. The Japanese live the way they live, Indians, Muslims, God bless them, right? They live the way they live and in their countries, that is the best way for them. And I am more than happy to not fly over there and impose democracy on them. Let them do their thing. But here in the United States, if our system is defunction, we have to have not just the beliefs, not just the ideas, but the people who actually manifested and live out those beliefs. I think liberty is a goal for you, because frankly, you've absorbed all of the Anglo understandings of how politics should be ordered. Even if you're not completely ethnically Anglo, it doesn't matter. You've been part of the country long enough. You're steeped deep enough in our understanding to have absorbed that way of course you wouldn't want to live any other. And so if we have a concentration of people who have that belief in understanding, it's far more likely that we will able to achieve that with less government interference and direction. And that's why open borders libertarian is a contradiction in terms. Because even if open borders was for some reason and insane belief libertarians should hold, you literally can't maintain the belief without keeping the critical mass of the original population that held the belief in the first place. You are literally creating a system that will destroy itself by bringing in people who do not agree with it. Also, if you really, I mean, and this has always been my thing on it, is that if you really do believe in liberty, and if you're a real libertarian, you believe like the property owners of America own America, you know, like that's who's in charge. It's like also like, how about I don't even have to give you a reason why I don't want our country to look different other than I don't want it because I don't even have to tell you. Yeah, because I don't want it because I like the 1980s America and I vote we keep it. I bet more people vote we keep it than vote we don't. How about that? How about if we made the country 80% Indian and everything was the same. The only difference was that people, there were more Indian restaurants and the people looked different and the people were like, how about I just say, I don't want that? In the same sense that I get to decide whether I want to renovate my kitchen or not. It's just my choice. I get to do it whether I want to, you know, and like, it really is something, man. And I don't know. I find this to be a broader theme. And I'm not saying this is a theme about Jews, I'm saying this is a theme about the people who support say like the policy of this war and Iran and unconditional support for Israel. Well, it's just like, I don't know, man, the Hutzpah, the Hutzpah on you to think that you're supposed to get the policy that 80% of the Americans oppose. But they're not allowed to get this one policy that 80% of them support. That's about their country. Like, it's just too crazy. I know you've made this point before, but it is so, it's so crazy to think. Now, I've heard you probably make this point about as well as I've heard anyone, but to think that they went for it on the Iran War and not on mass deportations when it's, you know, like whatever, whatever political risk there was or whatever unpopularity you would have to inherit, like they didn't even go on it for a thing that could possibly make our country better. It's so weird because, you know, obviously, I, you know, I still think that the GOP is the superior option because, well, my borders are closed, if nothing else, right? And whatever else you hate about Trump, every Republican politician for decades pretended like this was impossible and Trump basically hit a switch and then it was reality, right? And the tens of millions of people that aren't coming over the border will probably save my country for several generations. So obviously, I'm going to continue to appreciate, well, at least demographically. So well, I'm just saying look, the last time he came in, I mean, he didn't do his good job on the board of the last time he came out, but Joe Biden followed. So if Joe Biden follows again, then none of this really mattered again. I didn't mean to break up your point, but continue. It's a fair point. It's a fair point to me. Yeah. I'm just prefacing this before I then trash what, what has happened here. The fact that we got a war that literally Donald Trump, JD Vance, and Steven Miller, all explicitly promised would never happen repeatedly is insane. You can still find the tweets from Steven Miller saying, this war is a Kamala Harris war. Like this is a lie that we would ever go to war in Iran, we're never going to war with Iran. Only Democrats will get your children killed in Iran. That is never going to happen and it is slander for you to say so. Like those tweets are still up. And so when I have to hear like Republicans and like Neocon Shills tell me we've been at war with Iran for 47 years, Donald Trump said to me, we would never let Iran get a nuke. It's like, man, I can only take so much gaslighting like it is, it is almost unbearable to hear you vomit these words out as if you are just a completely a void, a vocal term, vulgar term. You are slave. You are just a complete slave. You are incapable of having thought, like I am pretty big on political loyalty. Like I believe in this in a pretty, pretty serious sense, but there is a reciprocal aspect of loyalty. Okay. And yeah, I get it. Like Trump has delivered some things I never thought I would see and I am grateful for them. But obviously this is a disaster and you cannot explain to me why we got into this disaster in any way except that somehow Israel has enough leverage to compile the United States government to go to this war. It makes no sense. In the other way, every person in the world observing this knows this, every normie in my life who has no interest in politics just says casually, well, it's kind of wild that Israel can just send us to war whenever they want, like these are completely politically unengaged people who have no opinion on Donald Trump or the Republican Party. And they will just say this casually out loud, the people online or the people in the Trump admin who are like in a bubble about like, oh, it's the small faction of, you know, dissident right figures and libertarians out there, you know, compelling people not to believe in Donald Trump. Like you guys are just delusional and not getting a firm grasp on your horses will be an absolute disaster. So yeah, it's clear that what we should have spent our political capillan was deportations. That was promised. The base would be completely energized if he was doing that. But instead, we have $5 gasoline, we're scaling back deportations while the any expectation that will even get the people out that Joe Biden brought in is basically gone at this point. They've admitted there's no way that's happening. And so basically you're just admitting we've completely lost on this. Yes, it'll be better than Democrats. I still agree with that. But the idea that the political capital will be spent on anything that the voters actually cared about, it's dwindling very fast. And so then you have a scenario where you have to ask, why do they have this level of power to compel this? Like you committed literal political suicide in front of everyone. And then some miracle rub you out to tell everybody why because Israel told us so. And then we have to spend the next year pretending, otherwise, it's one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in politics. And the fact that people are still just screaming at anyone who notices the most obvious fact available to anyone with eyeballs, I don't even know what more to say about it. >> Yeah, there was, I think I mentioned this on the show, but there was that. I don't know if you saw it. I didn't watch the whole thing, but I watched the clips of it. But they had a big three on three debate about like a mega, whether we should still support mega against it. It was the one with Alex Jones and Joe Kent. And then it was John Doyle and Andrew Wilson. It was three on three, which I hate three on three debates, man. I mean, I just much I'd much rather just listen to John Doyle like argue with one of them or something like that. Then listen to three different people make three different arguments. But so there's one point in it, this was really remarkable to me, but there's one point where where John is talking and he goes, look dude, like we all agree, we didn't want this war. Okay, well, maybe Will, Will's the one person who supported the world, Will chamberlin was the other guy. So he's, he's, he goes, okay, look, we all agree in this war as a disaster, we shouldn't have thought about it. Okay, this one guy. You just almost sit there and you zoom out and you're like, but why does one out of the six get their way? I mean, like dude, that's a pretty good, that's a pretty good representation of like mega. You know what I mean? Like you really did have like Joe Kent to Alex Jones to John Doyle to Andrew Wilson to Will chamberlin. Like you got a pretty diverse group of mega supporters here and it's five against what like that is the dynamic, you know, the dynamic is, but there's this one little group who got their way. And that is, I just, I don't know, it's so obviously indefensible on the face of the thing. All right, guys, let's take a moment and thank our sponsor for today's show, which is ultra pouches, ultra pouches, everybody loves these. 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Just good stuff to help you sleep with nothing bad in it. The ingredients have been carefully dosed, so they're safe to use every night without building up a tolerance. And they're easy to use. You just put one pouch in your mouth before bed and you'll be ready to sleep within 10 to 20 minutes. You got to check these out. Ultra sleep pouches deliver better, deeper sleep with properly dosed and natural ingredients. New customers can use the promo code problem to get 15% off at take ultra dot com. That's take ultra dot com and 15% off when you use the promo code problem. All right. Yeah. This is why I believe in late theory, the organized minority always, you know, out controls the disorganized majority. And yeah, that's exactly right. Like we, you know, MAGA was primarily a movement of immigration restriction and economic protection. Like those, those are basically like your two main pillars of MAGA, no matter how much people want to avoid it, like Trump was obviously campaigning on, you know, dispossessed middle and working class white people. Like that was obviously the fears that they have are the replacement of their jobs and replacements of their people and cultures. And this is what form MAGA. And that's why at one point, all six of the people on that stage, as you say, we're were entirely behind Trump. And one person got exactly what they wanted and the other five didn't and everyone is supposed to shut up because they got some of the things they wanted. Now again, I do think that there is a bad reaction to this. I think people reading around say, well, you have to go vote for Democrats or, you know, whatever. We have to embrace socialism. I mean, I mean, you know, all these arguments, like, that's not good. Like, like, they are like obvious, there are people who are just monetizing their disagreement with Trump. But that's very clear. But I don't think that just writing that off is healthy. Like, ultimately, you have to take the actual phenomenon as it is. And you can't just pretend that every pushback against you is manufactured. And no matter how much people want to deny this, it's very clear that a large number of people felt extremely betrayed by the one-two punch of the Epstein files and the Iran War. Honestly, the Epstein files might be more damaging, ultimately, than the Iran War at Yeah, I'm level to the credibility of the Trump administration. certainly it started at the 12 day. Certainly, if he hadn't launched this one, but I take your point there. The Epstein files did something that's very tough to measure on poles, that it really, it undermined the, the drain, the swamp spirit in a really profound way, I think. Yeah, absolutely. And so you have this scenario where a lot of people who were falling Trump really fell off that train. Now, Trump still is always going to have the mega-hard cores, especially the boomers, boomers love Trump, man. Like, you can't, like, it's funny watching congressional, like, primary ads in my area. The entire ad is just, I'm just like Donald Trump. Like, they don't even talk about a single policy. It's like, I like my stake overdone and Diet Coke and McDonald's. So vote for me. Like, that's actually the entirety of their campaign structure. So that's, you know, he's always going to have those people. They're the same people who watch the, you know, I ran Iraq war on television and Afghanistan war on television and thought all of it was great. And they're going to watch the Iran war on television and think it's all great too. And wonder why we don't just button and blow up all of Iran and walk away and, you know, in victory. That's going to exist. But the future voters that Trump had, the mega support, the momentum is in a very bad position. And really, the ultimate casualty of all this is JD Vance because, you know, this guy's in, like, the most difficult position you can imagine. He can't disown what's happened here, even though he clearly was against the war in Iran. And he knows it's a mistake. He's done everything he can to get out as quickly as possible. But Iran knows that they're not going to let it happen. And Israel knows they're not going to let it happen. And so we're stuck at the table. No, you're getting nowhere. And so you just have this scenario where now the Neocons, and this is where libertarians should care, by the way, this is the moment that libertarians, I will now make my best pitch for you to care about the GOP. Okay. The Neocons are making their move to recapture the GOP right now. They, the reason the Neocons are flipping out and talking about the institutions, like Heritage and Claremont and all these other ones being infiltrated by groipers, is because they know they completely lost the next generation. And there is no way that the people coming into the Republican Party will give one crap about Israel or foreign wars ever again. Like, that's done, that's over. Okay. And so the only thing left for these people to do is to basically like rest control of the Republican Party from the insurgent new right. They have to stop MAGA and new right. So yes, I understand a lot of people say MAGA is over. The MAGA coalition is dead. Don't wish for that. Okay. Because if MAGA coalition is dead, the Neocons own the conservative movement. What you want is the Neocons to lose this. You want MAGA to reassert itself even in, you know, even though you have bad things associated with now, you really want them to be in the driver's seat because the alternative is the return of Ben Shapiro and Mitt Romney and those people running the party. And if that happens, then, well, that's it. They're already moving to legislatively remove the ability to stop working with Israel from the executive branch. Like literally, they're walling off the ability to present, say, no to Israel in legislation. So they are doing everything they can to just completely seize up the American government on the issue of Israel. So it's impossible for them to do anything but support that state with maximum resolve at every moment. And if you let them win this thing, it doesn't matter what popular beliefs are on Israel. They will have the technical and bureaucratic power to shut you out entirely. Democratic press will not matter. Well, I mean, I guess I would say that I think there's really no stopping what's about to happen in these midterms. There's just this is here. And the bed, as far as I'm concerned, the bed's been made and look like, you know, some of these things are just, I don't know, like it's a, you know, if you, if you like, I don't know, do something really horrible to your wife, she might, she might leave you or never look at you the same way or something like that again. And you could make an argument, we're like, hey, listen, wait, lady, like it's still technically a better decision for you to stay with him than it is to go out there and be single, but she's like, yeah, but he just spit in my face. So I'm leaving, you know, like I, like, and there is an element of that. I'll be honest. Like it's like, I don't know, dude, you're seriously, dude, you're going to, first of all, you came and spoke at the Libertarian Party convention in 24, like you came and made a pitch to us. And then the most high profile or many of the most high profile libertarians like supported you. Dude, you launched a $35 million campaign to unseat Thomas Massey and told all of us to go to hell and told all of us we weren't a part of the coalition. And now you're asking us for, like it's, I don't know, like on some level, I understand you could argue that that's emotional, but at the same point, having a little bit of dignity and pride is an emotional thing. And it's not necessarily the worst, the worst thing for a group of people to have. I think that you launch, oh, look, another thing, like as you pointed out correctly, it's very clear that Israel got us into this war. It's you can't even believe that people would try to deny it. You know, it's one thing, if Coleman Hughes wants to debate me on how Israel didn't like get us into the Iraq war, like okay, you know, and I think I got a good enough argument that I'm right and he's wrong, but like okay, there's an argument there. And I argue Israel didn't get us into the Iran war. Like okay, anyway, you launch a war that's clearly a war of choice. That's another thing. Donald Trump could sit here and lie through his teeth and just make himself George W. Bush saying they were two months or two weeks away from a deliverable nuclear weapon. No, they weren't your liar. Everybody knows that. No one believes it. No one believes we had to fight this war. He chose to. And when you launch a war of choice, now me as a, you know, principal libertarian or whatever, I got a real problem with murdering a bunch of little girls in Iran. I got a real problem with the humanitarian catastrophe. But you really better not lose that war. You know, you launch a war of choice, you really better win that thing. You lose that thing. You're going to be punished in the midterm sport. So we're here now, like as far as I'm concerned, this is now happening. The Trump things over, dude, that's it. The only power he's got is foreign policy now and he just wants to fight wars with everybody. So that's it. There's no deportation. There's no domestic agenda at all. He's going to be in peach. He's going to be investigated. And by the way, they're going to have a lot more than they had the first time because man has he been corrupt as shit in this second administration. And get ready. That's going to be what the Democrats go after because it doesn't threaten political institutions at all. And it just puts Donald Trump and his family in the hot seat. It's going to be a nightmare. JD fans cannot win now. No, no one who's attached. The problem with the fucking only Will Chamberlain likes them is that no one likes Will Chamberlain. Like I mean to be a dick to the guy, but he's out here. No one agrees with him. There's not a follow it. There's no, there's no popular. It's just the boomers. As you said, just the boomer cons. So you lose with just that. That's not a winning coalition. And so now I just feel like the only option is like a Tucker Carlson 2028 or some type of like someone who could pick back up that coalition. Maybe don't call it mega call it America first or whatever, but like could pick back up that coalition and could maybe come out. So essentially the Democrats are going to win back the Congress. But yeah, I'm with you man. We cannot let a Democratic president win in 28 and have a president and Congress. Like I don't think it's hyper hyper hyperbole to say like that's the country. That's the end of it. So I kind of think that's where we are. I'm hoping that candidate emerges. Yeah, I mean, you know, I like Will personally had him on the show multiple times. But yeah, obviously, I don't even dislike him personally, to be honest. Yeah, yeah. But that said, you're obviously correct that the, you know, the GOP has dug its own grave here. Like the idea that they're running around and blaming people, you know, the vet looks like he's going to lose Ohio and all these people are running around. You have to vote for Vivek. You have to get out there and vote for Vivek. And it's like, look, man, I'm not going to tell anyone to vote Democrat. Like, obviously, it's going to be worse if there's a Democrat. But I'm not, I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's the voters fault because you put the Vek Ramaswamy in that place. Man, like, you guys screwed this up. And now you're going to pay the price. And, you know, so ultimately, I don't want them to win. I encourage people to go out and try to stop them from winning. But the Democrats are probably going to win this. And it's because the Republicans handed it to them on a silver platter. And there's no one to blame from them. It's not Tucker Carlson's fault. It's not your fault. It's not my fault. It's, you know, it's not the fault of the average voter. It's not Nick Fuentes's fault. I'm sorry, guys. Like, you did this because you're bad. Then you're stupid. And you failed and you betrayed your voters. And you're getting exactly what you deserve. That said, you know, I don't think that there is a third party. I'm a student of history. I taught history. Third parties lose every single time. The last time a third party was successful was a Republican party. Then we had a four way split in the presidency. And then we had a civil war about it. So like, honestly, that, that seems more likely than actually Tucker Carlson's new party winning. No, I'm not saying a new party. To be clear, I was my vision for this would be a Republican primary that somebody has, and then forget Tucker, if you don't think he's the guy or whatever, but like that somebody has to be a Republican who believe, who can credibly say, like, hey, we're going to enact the policies of what the voters actually want, which is that we want illegals deported. We don't want to fight stupid new wars. We don't want woken sanity. We don't want our currency being destroyed in the price of everything going on. Like the very basic things that the overwhelming coalition wants. And yeah, I don't know. I agree with you. You know, the whole, it's just the whole system is rigged against third parties. So the only way for a third party to really work is for the people in power to decide to unrig it against third parties. And they're not going to do that because that sure doesn't help them much. But I do think that like, look man, a Republican primary challenger against a very weak JD Vance or a very weak Marco Rubio has real possibilities there. And I do think the Tucker Carlson thing is very interesting because he's somebody who was the biggest show at Fox News. When you're running for president, you will get introduced to those boomers. You know, one of the interesting dynamic that me and you and maybe a little bit more you than me because like maybe some of them still like Glenn Beck and like know your, you know, because you're on the network or something. But for the most part, we're just not talking to them. They're just not paying, you know, like, like they were hearing the Thomas Massey debate from Fox News and Mark Levent. They weren't hearing the other side of that debate. And so I do think Tucker kind of uniquely would have an ability to maybe like edge back in with with some of them and be like, no, he didn't go crazy. He's the same guy you still liked from back then. I don't know. Maybe it's just wishful thinking to some degree, but at the same time, man, we got a country to save here or in and I don't know. I did want to mention, by the way, just because you brought up Pavek and I think that I probably would have been in some way, maybe like a step to your left on this like broader topic, like a couple years ago, if someone had asked me, like I remember seeing when Pavek was saying, a lot of things that I really liked about, you know, gotten the deep state and stuff like that. And I would see like, you know, right wing comments on Twitter, like talking about how he's an Indian or like he's not a Christian or he's not this. And I'd be like, come on, guys, like I don't want a movement so small that this guy can't fit in just because he's got, you know, whatever. Certainly, like if there's a movement that wouldn't have like Sagger and Jedi in it, then I don't want to be a part of that movement because I love that guy and I love what he stands for him, but but there's something about the way Pavek leaned into lecturing Americans about their culture. That is like, dude, it makes me want to strangle you. And I like the guy personally, but it's like the fact that I'm sorry, it does not make me a clansman or a racist or some dumb cartoon character from the 20th century to say that like, not dude, you don't get to lecture us about what our culture is. You're new here. You're a new member. Don't start lecturing us about what our founding is and how the young people who are upset that they're disenfranchised are just whiners and instead go be a winner. Like no one believes this is a meritocracy system. No one thinks you're worth hundreds of millions of dollars because or billions or whatever it is because you were just so good and you're like, no one buys that man. So you got to chill with that shit. It's a losing message. Yeah, the Christmas crash out was a true gift because as you say, like the vex had a lot of things. I mean, as somebody who wrote a lot about the managerial state and the deleterious effects that it has on society and how it just really needs to get rid of. I loved hearing those kind of things too, but the vex did the thing that I think is really important where all of these people liked the rhetoric and then they saw the real person believe beneath the veneer beneath everything. The vex made a clear statement of disdain for American culture. If you're actually assimilating and you actually think of Mary's because great, then you and you think American culture is watching saved by the bell and trying to make out with the prom queen, then you would be doing that. Like that's what you would, that's what assimilation would look like. You didn't come here to assimilate. You came here to rule, right? And that's what it is that a lot of these high class past Brahmins think they're just going to come in and get to rule the country, right? Like that, that's the understanding. And you know, again, this is not just unique to Indians, right? Like this is a problem with any large diaspora and the more elite the diaspora, the more of a problem it is as opposed to the other way around. The legal immigration is a huge problem, but legal immigration brings in a bunch of people into universities and those people become doctors and lawyers and they run IT departments and critical infrastructure nodes that make huge decisions about national security and who gets to come into the country and where they live and what they own and what benefits they get. And all of a sudden that diaspora starts manipulating things in their favor and you have a country that doesn't feel like your own anymore. It feels like it's being operated for other people because it is. And the vex really just kind of displayed that for people, no matter how good his rhetoric was, it became clear with the actual motivations or with the real thought pattern is lurking behind that. And then all of a sudden, I was wondering, and it's just like, how dare you, man? Like I just, you know, I do also find like, because there is something, again, like we said before, right? Like, and I think Darryl Cooper, mutual friend of ours, who's totally brilliant, I think he makes a really good point of like, he'll point out that like it actually is true that the American identity was always changing and that we were kind of like a radically open country compared to almost every other country that ever existed. But that doesn't mean there's nothing. That doesn't mean there wasn't something that like it's so the idea being here that like, look, man, like I got my daughter, my oldest is eight. And she's like a super smart kid. And she like reads books and stuff now and has like interesting thoughts of her own. And it's just really cool. It's like one of the most rewarding things about being a parent is like, oh, I used to have this little baby. And now it's like a real think in person. And I like cool philosophical conversations with my daughter. But like, I'm not a tiger bomb. Like, or whatever they would call like, I would never push my kid like that. Like after school, you'll be in violin lessons. And then you'll be reading more. And then you'll be doing that because like, while I do value their intellectual development, actually I value their development as a person. And I want them to have a childhood. And I want them to kind of play and enjoy themselves. And I don't want them to be beaten down and be horribly resentful to me as the kids of tiger moms always are. And like, so, and you know, a big part of why I feel that way. Orange is because I'm fucking American, dude. Yep. I'm not Asian. I'm fucking American. And that's why I feel that way. And like, and the nerve of you to be like a newcomer here and start lecturing me about how actually I'm raising my kid the wrong way. If they want to watch AC Slater on Save By The Bell, rather than love screech or whatever, your point like, no, dude. And also my, I'm sorry, my value is not that my kids make a billion dollars of pharmaceutical company that they can flip. I want them to be in happy marriages and be good people, you know? And so like, I don't know. Yeah, there is really something about that where it's like, yeah, it's not just about illegal immigration. It's not just about illegals who are criminals. It's not just about illegals who vote or something like that. It's about the fact that the people of this country ought to have a say in what this country is. And we don't right now. Final thought on anything you want to you. I would just say that, yeah, that's right. And that's why putting the entire Republican voter base through this humiliation ritual of having to support this guy and not get a socialist is just evil. Because you're, you're demoralizing your own people through this. And, you know, the, I think the long and the short of this that everyone Republican or libertarian we're talking to today should, should ultimately remember is that we're probably not voting our way out of this, man. Like you're, you're probably not going to see an easy democratic solution where you just pull a lever and these problems are solved. The future belongs to the people who are going to fight for it inch by inch. People who are having families, the people who are operating in communities building real actual robust structures. They are active in their local politics. They knew who their sheriff is. They're making sure that their property rights and their gun rights and their freedom of association are secured at individual levels, you know, state levels, community levels. That's going to matter. You're probably not just going to punch a ticket for someone in libertarian party or someone in the Republican party and this problem gets solved. That's a hard thing to hear, but earlier ancestors did it and you're going to have to do it. So buckle up and let's make this happen. Yeah. Amen. Well said. Dude, Aaron, thank you so much for doing this. I particularly really appreciate that we were able to make this happen on on short notice. Please let people know where they they can find your stuff. And I will just say again that the total state was great, man. I really highly recommend people read that. That's Orn's most recent book. But please plug any of your other stuff. Oh no, thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And I appreciate you having me on again. Of course, I've got the Orn Mac entire show on the blaze. It's on YouTube. It's on rumble. It's all the places you'd expect podcasts and everything else. And of course, I have the book, The Total State. It's out in its second printing with an extra chapter. So if people want to grab that, they can do that. Oh, nice. I got to check that out. I haven't read the new chapter. Nice. Alright, brother. Again, thank you so much. Thanks to everybody for listening. Catch you next time. Peace.