AuDHD Expert: What Female AuDHD ACTUALLY Feels Like, Abuse Will Find You!

ADHD and autism are on a spectrum of some sorts. Something happens, this kind of drift between nor a diversion and nor a typical and the dynamics change. As we kind of get older, it can be very, very tricky. Society says I need to have X-Mountner friends and it's almost like this friendship is actually really unhealthy for me. However, I'd rather have this really unhealthy relationship than be completely on my own. Dr. Carly Jones' MB is a trailblazing influence in the ADHD and autism space. With over 20 years of experience, she has dedicated her life to making the world a better place for people with ADHD. When you're an autopilot, you're people pleasing and when you're people pleasing, you lose all autonomy. You've got to say yes because people smile, they grin, they're happy and then we don't realise what we're getting ourselves into and it gets deeper and deeper and deeper. There's a lot of push and pull and a lot of contrasting traits sometimes that can create challenges but do you have any hacks that could bring them together harmoniously? I think it's going to differ for everyone, for some people it might. Huge announcement just before we start. Tickets to the ADHD chat-a-podcast live theatre show are selling fast. I'll be joined on stage by three leading psychiatrists and we'll be unpacking all things ADHD, how to process a late diagnosis, or ADHD and of course the dreaded rejection sensitivity dysphoria. I really hope you can join me for a night full of validation, laughs and insights and one that will remind you that you're not broken just different and that you have always been enough. It's on the 19th of May in London. You can find a link to the tickets in the description. I can't wait to meet you in person. Dr. Carly Jones, welcome. Huge honour to have you here. This is the ADHD episode I've been waiting a long time to have. I think there's a lot to cover like what ADHD feels like, how to know if somebody is ADHD and not just ADHD, and also like the risks of being undiagnosed, and how if someone is living with ADHD but not knowing it, what are the potential hidden consequences of that. But to start with, if someone's listening or watching and they have ADHD, how might they know that they are also ADHD? Oh, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? I mean, some academics might say, everyone's both, some academics might say, no, you're definitely this or definitely that, and I wish I could answer it, and I don't know if I can, Alex, because also just as being autistic, you're not kind of fixed somewhere on the spectrum. You might have higher daily care needs at the point of diagnosis or lower daily care needs at the point of diagnosis, but throughout the lifespan, that can completely change. And being a woman that's almost 44, I'm almost, I've got to have something to do with it, and I've watched a few of your podcasts with some incredible ADHD women and doctors on. Something happens when you're parrymenopause, or it's almost like my ADHD that I'm like, yes, I know you're there, just sit down before I, no, no, no, no, I know you're there, I can manage this. And there's something that happens, and I don't think it's a bad thing, that when you go into parrymenopause, it's almost like your ADHD is like, I'm here, and I don't necessarily, I don't think that's an easy thing, but I don't think that's a bad thing, because it makes you very good at not suffering falls anymore. And I feel actually a bit annoyed with my ADHD traits, because I'm like, come on, you could have kicked in a bit earlier, because you're quite, quite feisty, I quite like you. So I wish I could answer that. I don't know. I think ADHD and autism are on a spectrum of some sorts, and I think it's the way that they're either your enemy or your friend throughout your life, and how to navigate them. I'm not diagnosed ADHD, I was diagnosed as autistic at 32. I've always been aware that there's been some high-practic inattentive traits, and it's day by day as to what that might look like. So it's a surprise for us all. It's such a huge conversation. On the autism side, do you think there are some traits of autism that are so subtle, like almost unrecognizable, that it could make someone go under the radar for so long? Yeah, so let's assume we're thinking on the academics that think, and ADHD is one thing, autism is another thing. If that were the case, and they were, and they were, was kind of, you know, what to you would feel different. And I say it's an impersonal capacity. Part of the diagnostic criteria for being diagnosed as autistic is having daily challenges, which affects your everyday life with social imagination. So not traditional imagination, you know, it's some great target sectors and all that, dancers, whatever. But that's social imagination in a social context. This happens, I say there's someone else says this, this could be the consequence. And that's, personally for me, what I struggle with most as being autistic. So that is my kind of primary challenge, if you like. I've never been able to, in a personal capacity, in a professional capacity, I'm really good at it. But in a personal capacity, I've never been able to mitigate risk for myself. I've only had to make tons and tons and tons of mistakes, been vulnerable, tons and tons of times of times, to go, oh, the last time this happened, or the last three times this happened, as my mother used to say, Kali, you don't learn from your mistakes, you just make bigger ones. Is, is I've learnt from events and life experience, to go actually in hindsight, I'm captain hindsight, as they often say, then this isn't a good idea. So I actually think making mistakes and failing is a beautiful thing, which I think gives you resilience, doesn't it? So I think it would be the social imagination part for me. And that's one of those things, which is so hidden in plain sight to other people, observing us, but for us, it's all consuming. My granny, she's dead now, but my granny was northern. I won't try and do in northern accents, I'm rubbish at it. And she used to call me many names, that she used to, in a fun, nice, northern way, but she used to always say to me, oh, Kali, it's, there's nothing wrong with you. It saw their mother-buggers. We've done if we can say "buggers" I've just did, sorry Luke. And she used to sit down and play this game, me as a child, which was the consequence game. Have you ever played that? No, what are the rules of that game? So we would have one bit of paper and one pen. And I would write a sentence, the first sentence to a story, fold it up so you can't see what I've just written. Send it over to you, you'd write the next sentence, fold it up, so I can't see it. We do the whole A4 page of that. So at the end, it kind of looks like a concertinid fan. We undo it and we read up the story and it's funny because it's a nonsense story because I only know what's going on in my head, my agenda for the story, and similarly, you only know the story and the agenda in your head for that story. So it's a funny story, it doesn't make sense. And social imagination is very, very hard to describe to other people because if someone said to me, oh, talks me about social imagination, it would be a bit like asking somebody that's been blind since birth, tell me your favourite shades of purple. I don't know, right? So this game, though, I do sometimes with parents if I'm doing any talks or training around social imagination because you really never know where something's going to end up. And if you're playing that game with your granny or if we were to play it here together, it's, I know it's going to be a lighthearted, funny story. It's not going to be dark and terrifying, but I can't switch that off. That's every phone call, every WhatsApp message, every work meeting, every relationship, every, everything. It's just acting on autopilot and hoping for the best, which can lead you into terrible situations. And similarly, you might go, I had no idea the story was going to be so good. And you have to pick these in your circle, I think. I think it's such a relatable experience. You're putting out one version of yourself into the world, and that version is met with various responses. And especially if you're such an internalised person, and you feel like you're living inside your head sometimes behind your eyes. And what the world is seeing is this version of you, this masked version of you. And I guess it probably over a time period does fall into place and makes sense, but it can be incredibly confusing. And the source of such a disconnect between how you feel about yourself, sometimes what messaging the world is giving you. Someone with ADHD, how might masking look like? So a typical person with ADHD goes to a party. Like what presentation might that look like? I think it's going to differ for everyone. For some people it might be, and you see that I'm clasping my hands at the moment. And I know we get a break after half an hour, but I'm holding my hand. hands Alex. We can have a break whenever you like. No, no, no, no, I'm having a great time. I'm classed me my hands because that's my natural, very subtle masking because otherwise I'm like this all the time. And as a kid I remember, I remember my mum saying to someone I was Italian, I think she said or something, I was just Italian because people are constantly flapping at her. Look at Italian. Part Swedish and Welsh actually. But you know, those sort of things and that doll of doll me a little bit and piece goes, "Domiel Day" and they used to say, "I was because I used to flap my hands and I'd dark hair." But anyway, I'm I'm rambling. It could be something as small as, "I'm not going to flap my hands, I'm going to sit on my hands." And what happens after that? Start rocking because I'm trying to not show my autistic self. And that has become very subconscious for me actually. I'm getting more insights I go along. It could be avoiding eye contacts or trying to do eye contacts, but instead of the, I mean, when do you look and when do you stop looking? Okay, so my doctor taught me to always look at people's noses. So I could probably identify people just by their noses now and face blind. Anything else to show me the nose because I'm only looking at noses or foreheads, you know. Those sort of things. So it could be as simple as trying to hide your stems, trying not to talk too much about your special interests. Now I just, you know, it talks me about black Labrador's all day, trains, planes, which is ironic because they're very stereotypical male autistic interests and those sort of things. And also it can be quite physical as well, you know. It could be, I'm trying more now in my forces to go, okay, well, I like this outfit. So therefore I'm going to wear this outfit. And there are occasions where you have to go well, out of the lightness to the host, I'm going to dress in a particular way because that's obviously what the dress code is. And I say obviously Alex, I can remember getting my first black tie event invitation and I wore a black tie. Well, why would you not? That's what it says and if you're a literal thinker. Yeah, I would, that makes total sense. Yeah, I wore a black tie on a white shirt, so I was like, I said, black tie event, better find a black tie. That's not what I did with that mean. So not obviously at all. I've made quite a few mistakes, put that one in the mistake books so I don't repeat it. You know, or it could be makeup or it could be anything and a lot of the time when I see particularly younger, younger people and they might be kind of very gothy or have a very certain, quite pronounced, cool, absolutely cool, I think, gothical. Dress sense, I'm like, yeah, they're probably autistic or ADHD because that's a, you know, a really strong physical mask. So it can look different for everyone. Masking is a tricky thing though. It used to be a big enemy of mine in a way because a, it's exhausting if you're going to do that on a physical level and it's also exhausting if you're covering up your stems because we're doing it for some sort of reason. Be that the ADHD and the high productivity or if that's an autistic stem or perhaps both. Maybe this hand does the high activity in the sand as the autism who knows. But exhausting mentally because every time you mask yourself, you will road a little bit more of yourself a steam and if you're a roading yourself, steam, you're a roading your sense of self and if you're a road, your sense of self, then you're going to be really depressed. And I guess when you don't have a sense of self, it's very hard to know what people are good for you, what jobs are good for you, what relationships are right for you. I very much relate to the masking and specifically the eye contact. And I think when you struggle with eye contact and you force yourself to maintain it and then when it's your turn to speak, you just blank and you don't know what to say, you genuinely feel like you're stupid or I certainly do. And I feel like that over years and years and years, it can really erode your self confidence and your ability to put yourself in social situations. I have a pen in my hand doing this chat today and I think that is certainly my stim if I don't have a pen I panic. What do I do with my hands now? And I guess that's probably masking. For me, wearing the same clothes every day or I have multiple versions of this outfit, for me is unmasking. I used to feel like I had to wear different outfits every single day and the amount of effort that that took in my brain to decide what to wear every day actually like took me away from my ability to think and to strategize and to grow my business and the podcast but when I actually just said to myself, actually, no, I'm going to I found an outfit I like it feels nice. I like the materials I'm going to wear that every day and I could just wake up, put it on the amount of friction that was erased from my morning routine just by making that tiny adjustment. But I feel like if you don't have an awareness of all of these things we're talking about and you carry on masking, you carry on putting that extra effort into deciding what to wear or maintaining eye contact and you go on and on and on feeling broken, feeling misunderstood, feeling like there's genuinely something wrong with you because the consequence of not knowing what to say when it's your turn to speak in a conversation is met with an eye role or did you hear what I just said Alex again? What do you think are the long term consequences of somebody being undiagnosed or DHD? The first point I'd like to say before that I think you are exceptionally intelligent. I think you're really, really bright and I saw this thing because I spend too much time on Instagram for women in her forties. I just love all the funny things and I communicate by sending them to friends and things and my daughters and some horrific things. I saw this kind of real and it's not the word I'm trying to be cool Alex. Yes that's the one. Yeah, yeah. And it was something about I'm asked myself to be just like them and now they're calling me stupid. Don't dumb yourself down for the world. I think would be a good message to particularly younger younger adults or listening. You don't have to, you know, I know of one autistic woman and I'm not dissing love island. It's not my type of show I'd like to watch the House of Commons live because I'm that cool. But there was I know of one autistic woman that noticed the girls at work in the lunchtime all they spoke about was love island. So she hated love islands but she went home every night and watched love island and took notes and researched so then pretend that she liked love islands so she could make friends at work and she was like well actually I wanted to talk about science or I wanted to talk about this bit of tech that I'm really interested in. If I'd done that would have gone on she's a bit weird or a bit different and so yeah I think and I'm not saying that people watch love island are dumb. I know some very intelligent people that watch love island but don't yeah that makes me really sad so that makes me really really sad that you know it felt stupid and I think it's living authentically. You have to be takes a lot of bravery because particularly in the past if there's been bullying or if there's been times where being yourself has made a really vulnerable takes an awful lot of bravery to to authentically be yourself and decide who who who's safe to do that around and the question around around the risk of that I think there's a huge safe and obviously safe-guiding special interest even above black Labrador's which I don't have a black Labrador by the way one day one day will happen and is you when you're an autopilot you're people pleasing and when you're people pleasing you lose all autonomy and it's so much easier for your people pleasing and your only focus is to survive this act if you like around people to fit in you've got to say yes because saying yes people smile they nod they grin they're happy and all you're thinking is yeah I'm winning at social being social no no comes with perhaps a loss of friendship no comes with you know why not and then this huge debate around why not or potentially not being invited somewhere and so people just say yes right and then we don't realise what we're getting ourselves into and it gets deeper and deeper and you fall too far into fall back out and I think there's a huge safe guard thing there issued with masking as well just I'm thinking about the the lady you mentioned who went home and watched Love Island and so she literally changed her viewing habits in order to feel like she had some kind of input into the conversation at work so she probably pulled herself away from a special interest or something that she really wanted to do that evening and that is really sad do you think that people pleasing element that tendency to say yes and put yourself in situations that aren't aligned with what you are really passionate about but you're saying yes to it you're turning up to that event because you don't want to let people down and that particular characteristic create of vulnerability and what might that vulnerability be towards if you're an ADHD woman? Is that a risky area to be in? I think it can be. I think we're so misunderstood anyway. We're so misunderstood particularly when masking a lot. Be that through appearance or be that through the way that we might talk to talk with other people and then that misunderstand just gets wider and wider and that was particularly tricky in my 20s. You know thinking oh well this is what everyone else is doing and I should go along with this and even more so in my early teens as well because you're not really living authentically and just like that example of someone that's going to watch something they don't want to watch that's anything kind of absorbed into their downtime to their recovery time, their processing time and so vulnerability is to mental health for sure. Vomitability is happiness and vulnerability is in perhaps not meeting all the people you should have met. You know there's that great quote isn't it? I was blue but I didn't tell anyone else I was blue and there was somebody else that was blue and they didn't tell anyone else and we never met each other. You know? Yeah yeah yeah. Just go out there and be your weird, weird authentic self and you've got to meet the right people that should be in your world because you're not people pleasing, you're being yourself and that's tricky and I say that's something still rubbish at it. Not saying I've cracked that one. Like no way. But yeah huge vulnerability to safe personal safety to one extreme and happiness. Putting yourself in front of a TV show that you don't want to watch but you're doing it to please someone else. Seems like a type of behavior that could escalate into more vulnerable situations. I mean if you're an ADHD woman or an ADHD man and you have this tendency to put other people's first but other people's needs ahead of your own. Like how severely dangerous could back it? It's self-arrasure isn't it? You're raising yourself and kind of thinking well if you're around I'm not saying that another person might particularly bad person but somebody that's not suitable for you for XYZ reasons you're kind of a raising yourself and thinking well I'll be less I'll be less because they need more I'll be less and you could end up in some really sticky situations because when does that stop? What level does that stop? And if you boundaries are a hard thing to learn for any person but I think particularly for autistic or women of ADHD it's I mean we're so vulnerable as it is 91% of us experienced sexual violence for the you know within our lives I think it was 52% of those before the age of 15 you know we're so vulnerable anyway it's I just think boundaries should be taught at school from a boundary in consent should be taught from a really a for everyone from a really early age and you know that the power of the word no and in small situations so then when larger situations happen it's it's not as new like not this new world oh my gosh I just sit my first boundary you know wow there's gonna cake you know very tricky I suppose if you are somebody who feels different who feels broken who has been told by probably so many people in the early years that you know what's wrong with you why are you so sensitive to calm down you feel like you're almost starved of praise and positive comments and nice messages if you're someone like that and we know that's heightened in the New York version of community are you more susceptible to being loved bummed or like if someone are you more you like the low-hanging fruit or toxic person who might pray on that vulnerability I tend to make jokes inappropriate times because it's my kapy mechanism but I have said to colleagues before who work in law enforcement I've said you know if you're trying to find a local predator and you're not sure who it is just puts both in like club at the same time the five me in five minutes it's almost as if it's on my front you know on my forehead pick me and I don't know why and other autistic and ADHD when we will have had very very similar experiences I can't see the sign red roses you know some can't do a bunch of red flags I look like red roses to me and I think there's this from an autistic perspective I do not know someone's flirting with me all stop I'm not reading any body language I'm not understanding that me first of all I have no concept why anyone would want to flirt with me I don't understand because that's in their brain that's not my brain and then I have no idea what flirting is so the only way I'm going to know that say you know and Jensen might think well I've done enough in just sort of something interested or back off yeah because that's what gentlemen do it's what nice guys do the only way for me to know somebody is interested in me is that love bombing love bombing to me it's kind of like marve flirting oh that's quite oh they must like me because they literally directly said XYZ right let's let's get a house together oh we were in no each other three months sure also my house and you know and I'm so love bombing for me would would feel like oh they're interested so I would not understand the subtleties so I'm not saying that men that are gentlemen should also become love bombers please don't but it you know direct comms can we just go back to like when we were seven and the boy at school would write you a no and you have to like tiki us or no I mean it's the most autistic friendly times to be alive right it's so clear yeah kind of sweet but if you tick to know they wouldn't do it again if we could just go back to that as adults that'd be great and so I think it makes us incredibly bumble to that and that kind of conditioning as well completely unintentional conditioning so in my book safeguarding autistic girls in there I write about this timeline of unrubility and I made a chart for it for the the autism Act review that went through for the House of Laws and they very kindly published it on the government website so it's kind of like the five stages of unrubility and I think this would absolutely apply to ADHD women as well and men and and and within that timeline it that starts with the early years and let's say that you're the child in the the car that's either fidgeting a lot so it's you know you can see no one else is doing that stop being so dramatic or or whatever it might be or the child is like the radio is really loud no it's not you're overreacting because other people aren't experiencing that way and it's completely unintentional conditioning unintentional gas-licing but you go into the world and you go into school kind of five going I'm too much I'm too loud I'm too annoying maybe because I'm spinning around to Kate Bush with ring heights still do that stucco and periscuffs in my head I'm so excited about the film I cannot tell you and so that wasn't applied by the way and this anyone wants to give me free tickets to Jacob Lordy that would be fine far too young for me but maybe line up for my kids and so I sort of know thinking about you I'm sure most of the audience are too special interest but get black clouds so but you kind of go into the world going I'm the problem everyone else is right so it's very easy for that to then turn into not recognizing and reporting any forms of abuse from you know from the age on and and that's a real worry and and it's not parents or carers fault because we've all gone oh my gosh no it's not piped down you know we've got to be our auntie so and so's of this time all day but we've all done it I have I hope the kids are all right 28 23 18 now but it's a big hammock is very fun yeah and if there's an Audi HD woman listening can having an awareness of their vulnerability to being loved bomb to protect them from it because I've gotten awareness of RSD I know that I'm vulnerable to criticisms but even with all of the awareness that I have it doesn't protect me from the visceral reaction in the moment so if you are a vulnerable woman who is susceptible to billing with dopamine and almost having an instant connection with someone if they love bomb you because that messaging is so in contradiction to how you feel about yourself because of so many horrible messages that you've experienced and having an awareness of that protect you from the probably instant reaction which might make you gravitate towards that person you deep down you know their toxic and you can see your intuition is telling you that this is that's a red flag but it's such an instant visceral reaction that you go there anyway I think we will never be able to control our feelings or our chemical responses I think that's just within us. Be that as humans, probably magnified times a thousand if you're a neurodivergent. I think the safeguarding aspect, particularly as an adult, would be to surround yourself with other women with the same neuro type, what other male friends of the same neuro type, or I work a lot with sexual violence, domestic violence, charities, I'm a patron of a great one called Lotus who specialises in neurodivergent women. And speaking to friends, personal experience friends and also the charities that I work with, we really struggle to safeguard ourselves. Sometimes life long, but we're very, very good at safeguarding our fellow, a tribe member, our overall to stick our ADHD all both. Friends and I really, really now rely on a close circle of friends, both male and female, to go, "What do you think of this?" And they're like, "Oh yeah, that's quite sweet," or "Absolutely not." And I advise a verse, so I do that for them. And then really having to trust them. And actually it's not trust, because they are friends, but it's having to go. This feels, just because something feels the way it might not be right, let the chemicals go through. Let the chemicals pass. Go find a good book. Why are we good at protecting our friends, but not ourselves? I think it's because we haven't got that chemical imbalance going on, because it's them, because that's happening to them, yeah. But that huge dopamine rush, which feels a lot like love, and sometimes isn't, sometimes sadly isn't. And they're not experiencing that, so they're able to be rational and go, "Okay, I'm coming with this from a rational point of view." I also don't have a friend that's like, "Well, I don't want her not being single anymore because she's really good fun, she's single." Yeah, no, I'm not. Do you know who she was to be happy? I think that's why, because they're not, and you can kind of recognise it, or you might have had similar experiences and go, "Okay, well, I'm not going to say absolutely not full stop, but I'm going to say just slow it down a bit." Is it possible for an ADHD woman to be abused in a social context? In other words, from people that she perceives to be friends, but actually they're walking over her and taking advantage of her kindness? Absolutely. I think we see that quite clearly, even probably before we've been secondary school, and a lot of autistic women or ADHD women and boys as well. Friendships start to change around about nine or ten, and sometimes if a parent was to message me and go, "My daughter, and they don't give any age range," and say, "You know, she was doing a right with friendships, it's all fallen apart." And I guess she and year six of primary school, and I go, "How did you know?" And I'm like, "It's just the age it happens." Something happens, this kind of drift between a nor a diversion and nor a typical girls, because it's like they're talking behind your back stuff, which to us is like, "I'll just say it to my face." And the dynamics change in that part, so that happens. And as we kind of get older, it can be very, very tricky for people, because it might be, "Okay, so I want to have a friend," or society says, "I need to have X-Mount as a friend," and particularly in secondary school, you know, to be popular, "I have to do this," or "I can't be seen not to have any friends," and it's almost like, "Well, actually, this friendship is actually really unhealthy for me." However, I'd rather have this really unhealthy friendship relationship than be completely on my own. So it's friendship at any cost, and there's gender dynamics around that as well, which can be very, very challenging, because it might be, "Well, this boy has been my friend," and I really like this boy being my friend. All of a sudden, he's now boyfriend, because from their perspective, it might be, "Well, she obviously fancies me, she makes me hang around me for ages." "Actually, just really like being your friend," and then it's like, "Well, do I go along with it?" Because, "Do I go along with this?" Because, actually, it's better to go along with that, even though I'm not really into it, because it's better than being alone, and I think loneliness has got a lot to answer for. And also, those societal expectations of, "Well, you're in your 20s, aren't you going out to the pub every night, on the clubs, or you're in your 30s? Shouldn't you be married? And shouldn't you be doing this?" And all of these kinds of things, so there's that society expectations, which can make us quite vulnerable to that. I've known some horrific, one of the worst ones I've known of, it's cook-a-ming, and do you know what cook-a-ming? No, explain what that is. So it's a term often used by the police and safeguarders, and it's after the cookie-bird, which will go into a nest that's not his, kick out all the chicks to take over the nest. Not a very nice bird, actually. I'm sorry, bird loves out there. And I've been in an older human in a human way, so what these particular people will do, will find a home, isn't theirs. Let pretend to be completely in love, and sometimes even not. Move themselves in, essentially. Throw everything up in the air, just because they want to have that particular house, that particular lifestyle, or whatever. And I know of a woman, oh gosh, it was awful. She lived alone. She had a disabled child, and this man had moved in, and she, fantastic, obviously, had the women's neurodivergent as well, but a child had physical disability, and started off lovely, and within kind of six months, her and her physically disabled daughter were literally sleeping in a shoe cupboard. They had the whole house for her, and for his friends, for his hobbies, for his equipment that he used to have in the house, having parties every night, and they were in a shoe cupboard. And that was the cost of that social vulnerability, and also, well, this is better than being alone. And it's absolutely heartbreaking, and the woman did get out of it and had a child grow of it. But it was, yeah, horrendous. I mean, this particular woman, she married him, a charity support her to get that an old, horrendous, horrendous. And that's obviously a very extreme case. It could be as simple as, oh, I've got these friends, but I'm always the one that pays when we go out. Yeah. And you know what, I'm all for feminism, and I'm all for everything being 50/50. I've also been in relationships or in dating situations where it's like, it's interesting, I'm the only one that I've ever faced. But that's maybe that's because I'm a really independent woman. That's truly heartbreaking. And in that woman's example, I mean, when she got the awareness and was able to retrospectively look at back at that situation, who does she blame? Because even though there's a clear villain there, the guy who was doing the cook-earing, is there a tendency to even with that clarity of who the villain is to blame yourself? I think for this particular woman, it was primarily guessing over the heartache of it, because there's part of you that wants to hold onto that, you know, wants to hold onto that first good six months, first good year. And can you even get back to that? And we don't know often be that social imagination or just be that blind face or be that trauma bonding, trauma bonding and neurodivergency goodness me what I've picked you dish. And being the old things will get better, things will get better. Just face, things will get better. And it's not until it's so bad that you're like, I don't know, I can't get out of it because I've got no friends left, you know, I'm like, where's my support team? And again, going back to why all of us as neurodivergent people need to have some really good friends around us to be quite blunt, but also within that going, I can't go to say this, but I'm also going to give you this to help you come and stay mine for a bit, come and do, you know, those sort of things. It's very good for us just going, no, don't do that. Well, how you going to support me? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. You actually have to back that up with going his a plan. A quick word from our sponsor. We've all had that nightmare. You're on that final warning from that friend. If you miss their birthday again, your friendship is over. Fignito. And you do miss it. Even worse, you miss their wedding and you are giving the speech. The speech you forgot to write. I can change. You plead with them and they say, no, you can't. Well, actually, you can. How? Timo app. Timo app has organized me in a way that's made me unrecognizable to my nearest and dearest. What ADHD? Timo is designed by neurodivergent brains for neurodivergent brains. And you can tell it's built to adapt to your neurodivergent way of thinking and be flexible to your way of planning. And now it's even more simple with the AI planning assistant. A simple one. voice prompt when you have to plan something and the new AI planning assistant smoothly transcribes it into an easily digestible list of instructions to guide you. Give it a go, and use the link in my bio for 30% off. Just a note there, this code is only applicable on the web browser, not on the smartphone. Back to the show. Is it part of the journey, post-diagnosis or post-awareness? And recognizing that you are neurodivergent, is there a huge amount of self forgiveness that goes on when you retrospectively look back and see some of the decisions that you made, particularly if you have a tendency of blaming yourself? I think that's probably the most vital part of a diagnosis, or at least self-awareness, self-identification, if we all know diagnosis, is a huge privilege. Is being able to kind of put those new lenses on. So, okay, that wasn't, you know, I'm not a bad character, well, that's not my shame to carry, or yes, I think that was difficult, but now to learn from it and move on. I often think about particularly if masking and after a diagnosis and trying to get back to your authentic self and there's a great quote, I don't know who said it, it was on the internet, it could have been anyone, but there's a great quote that says, remember who you are, who you were before the world got its hands on you. Love that, just kind of who am I, and you need time alone to really think about that, and to remember that. And it's a bit like buying a house, buying an old house after diagnosis, you get these keys and you open the door and you look at the wallpaper and think, oh, I'm not really sure, I like that wallpaper. This was always meant to be your house, right? It was like a dream house. Bremped for this house since childhood, opened the door. I don't like the wallpaper, I'll take that off. I've got this another layer of wallpaper under it, take that off. And you finally get past all these different layers down to the bare bricks of this house, you know, like why would anyone plasterboard and wallpaper on that, look at those exposed beams, look at those bricks, this house is fine, it's better than fine, it's beautiful just as it is, and that to me is how I'm masking, and I don't think my masking's finished yet. But that to me is how it felt post diagnosis going, why were those layers of wallpaper on there? Please the next donor to go over certain trend, to someone so's got that wallpaper, so I better have it because that's the thing that everyone does, so I better fit in, and actually it's fun as it is. What else? And I think the longer it is before you either self-identify or get your diagnosis of neurodivergency, it can the more layers, the more exhausting, the more tears, the more revisiting you have to do. Does the amount of grief go up? The later you're diagnosed, do you think, oh my gosh, I have lost so many years to masking? I was diagnosed at 32, and I can remember thinking, oh yeah, I'll probably be able to amask him maybe like six months or something, but actually if you've been doing something for 32 years, or at least, I'm pretty sure I was masking by the age of about three or four from some hilarious stories from my mother. I think so. I think with masking as well, though, not to see it as the enemy, although it can have really significant impacts on our wellbeing. Because I struggle with that social imagination and kind of knowing that social vulnerability, and I don't mind using vulnerability, some people don't like the word, I don't mind use it about myself. Masking can be my friend, because the moment that I notice that I'm really masking, I don't have a gut instinct, I just don't, I rely on facts and fact-finding at work, it makes me really hyper-vigilant and doing the right thing and making due diligence because I'm not just going to actually have a feeling, I'm going to go, "Well, I need to know, black and white, show me everything." It's good at work. Personally, I can't go right. I'm going to ring your ex-partner and ask for a reference, it might not be very reliable. So work, bit in personal life, not. And so instead of that gut feeling, I can't predict that, but now I know a lot more about myself and how I mask the minute that I'm starting to notice that I'm masking, that's become my gut feeling. So I wouldn't be masking if I didn't feel safe and accepted, therefore I'd probably need to leave. So I've kind of gone, "I can't get rid of this masking thing, but I can make it my friend because I'm going to put it to work." Very interesting. One of the key drivers or motivators for masking seems to be, to be almost bulletproof and invincible or at least shielded from RSD. If I put out this version that's different to the inner child, the version of me that's been told 20,000 times that I'm too sensitive, not enough, too much, too dramatic, then I almost protect myself from criticisms. RSD is brutal, it's a big conversation at the moment. How have you had RSD been described to you by people in the community? So other friends and colleagues who are diagnosed ADHD and either aren't autistic or don't quite yet have that diagnosis, she says, "Winking and nudging." The way they've described it is that sense of what's the point of even hitting that job application in or that promotion in what's the point, or I couldn't bear it if it was a no. So I'll just stay stagnant where I am because it feels safer, or I won't, you know, on the negative side, but then also on the plus side, with that kind of rejection, and I've obviously struggled with that myself, the way that I, I'm going to lie, if I say that I'm sorted out, I haven't, because what I'll do is go and go to play for everything, and I don't care if I get rejected. I'm just going to, you know, the 10% rule, if you play 100 things, you'll get 10, if you play for a thousand, you'll get 100, you know, all of that kind of, and I, that's the kind of lie that my ego does, but actually my inner child is, I'm going to apply for it, and then I'm going to self-sabotage it, by applying for something else and going for that, so then I wouldn't have the time even if they did. So I haven't got over it, I've just learned to go to the next level of, you know, feel the fear and do it anyway, and then self-sabotage it, so it doesn't happen, and if I apply for roles and I know it's a big jump, I know I can do it, and that's not out of arrogance, it's out of, I've done this work before, but not under this label, I know I can do it, and I'll send my covering letter to some really trusted colleagues of mine that already at that level, and I say, what do you think? And they're like, you've just literally spoken badly about yourself for the first three things, and I was like, oh, that's because I just wanted to be honest, and they're like, no, you're not honest in a job interview, you don't have to be that honest, I'm like, oh, okay, or I've been in interviews where it's been down to the last two, and somebody asked, no, it was about safe guarding, and I really wanted this job anyway, the panel said to me, you know, there's you and there's the person in the waiting room, why should we pick you? And I said, well, I just care about this role so much, I want the best person for the job, if I'm not the best person, then please bring the other person in to do to have this job, and I did, but I was just being honest, you know, but also I was being honest, but I was also self-sabotaging, because I couldn't fight for myself, that's where I need to kind of bring in my trusted tribe, I can't recall them guide dogs, that would be probably not the good thing, but that's kind of, you know, to come in and go, she's not going to say anything nice about herself, so we're going to do it, I don't think that will ever change, yeah. Is that a representation of the push and pull and the many internal contradictions that can come with having an all DHD mind? I suppose on one hand you've got like the impulsivity of the ADHD, and the old that person perhaps said, I couldn't do something, so I'm going to now make it my entire personality to prove them wrong, and you go for it, you in the moment apply for that job, but then the other part of your brain takes over after some time has passed, and you get very anxious, and perhaps, as you said, you self-sabotage, is that an example of that push and pull that can come with having the complexities of an all DHD mind? Absolutely, and I'm so glad you mentioned the push and pull, often describe it as having to wake up and deciding if I'm going to be autistic or hyperactive today. My routine hates my hyperactive zone, and my hyperactive side hates my routine, so I just have to be quite transferable in those, and that push and pull was well think about vulnerability in relationships, yeah, so a lot of toxic relationships start with that push and pull, push and pull, push and pull to get you addicted. If your brain is like that every day, that's just normal, yeah, you're just like, ah, this relationship understands my brain. I've got to come out of this, with no hair, completely traumatised, and in tears, but actually dopamine's kicking, so I'm really glad you mentioned the push and pull, because that was on my notes of things to say, and now I forgot the question. I think you answered it perfectly. I think it was a brilliant example, I think I was going to ask you what problems that push and pull could create, but I think you've set the stage perfectly with the relationship example. Do you know anyone who's had that, who might be undiagnosed, or not aware that they are all DHD, or perhaps just ADHD or autistic, and like, those push and pulls have caused such a crisis that actually it's been that point of crisis that's led them to seek an assessment for being neurodivergent? Yes, yes I have seen that and I've seen that and in somebody going for support to the doctors where it's evidently this double neuro type push and pull for them to come out with some extremely powerful antidepressants and it's like no, no, no, what the sadness and the confusion that this person having is because this push and pull needs some support, this is it's almost like having a flower that only seen the petals and not seen the root cause and that's very very tricky and particularly by waiting lists as well and people to be in that absolute crisis before that being recognised either by them or by people that are are trying to take care of them, yeah really it's really really sad, absolutely. 85% of the viewers and listeners of this podcast, Kali, are women and many have been let down and feel really angry at the fact that they were missed for so long. Why do you think women have been let down and missed for so long in this conversation? Great question, it's very much that kind of male, I mean psychology as a whole has been very male-centric, millennia. I don't know when psychology started, whenever it started, it's been quite male-centric. I think also as women, we go to, if I went into the GP and go, "I've got a broken leg, they're like okay," and when was your last period? I don't know what periods are like the every centre of all our ailments which is always quite entertaining or if you're a slightly bigger woman, you go into the hot sport of a broken arm. "Have you considered losing weight?" No, I've just got a broken arm and I don't know why, but I don't think that generally happens to men. So for women it's always a problem, I think, just medically. And also that gender societal gender roles, if you've got, if you've got a neurodivergent girl that comes home from school, runs upstairs and reads, gets into bed and reads in Matilda, you're like, "I'll have serious." If a boy was going, "Right, Muscle Up says, I read my book and all his friends are outside playing football," they're like, "Come on." So it's kind of those expectations and I think also for women and girls, the expectation to be the fixer, the expectation to keep the peace, the expectation to. There's different expectations growing up, I believe, for a sister as opposed to a brother and and a lot of that can also, I think, lead us to our neurodivergencies and looking different. Yeah. I think there's a lot of things and also the diagnostic tools being completely skewed towards younger males and not necessarily for women. And I think neurodivergent people were all fixers actually. Some of us, regardless of gender, some of us might be technicians, some of us might be engineers, some of us psychologists, some of us are nurses or volunteers so sometimes people are fixing things literally, some people are fixing the social fabric of the world. So this great thing, again online, I must get a life. And it's really kind of stereotypical and I actually really like trains because I work for Department of Transport but it's, it was like, "What do autistic men want?" And it said, "Trains, what do autistic women want? Complete judicial and police reform." And I was like, "Yeah, nailed it. I'm cropping up both of those." How big of a difference do you think having a diagnosis or just an awareness makes to somebody's journey? Because I've spoken to many neurodivergent people in pre-diagnosis, they struggled with addiction, bad relationships, and post-diagnosis, they had an awareness and then they were able to start making changes and mitigate some of the challenges and life got considerably better. I'll severe can that pre-diagnosis car crash compared to the post-diagnosis clarity, how extreme can those two get? I believe it can be black and white day and night but then I would say that as a black and white thinker, right? But all this insight, this is it, you get the insight to go, "Okay, well I would think like that because that's my neurotype." And I think it's so so important because you can ask for support, you can ask me if you actually know what you're dealing with, you've got a word for it, whatever that word or words may be. Very, very important but it's really also important that self-awareness, self-identification, I believe is human right, that people get their diagnosis but let's just say diagnosis didn't exist, right? Hopefully that will never happen but let's just say they don't. You're still protected by law so the Equality Act 2010 is need to let not diagnosis let you don't legally need a diagnosis or to show your diagnosis which is quite good because my about size of yellow pages, I think, and to to someone to get those reasonable adjustments that work, those reasonable adjustments in education. So from a very logical, this is my autism side, my very logical part of my brain don't feel that it's going to be a magic wand and don't wait for that support, don't wait to ask for those reasonable adjustments. My other side of my brain would say you need to know because then you can kind of put it for yourself in that emotional side, you need to know and that's why I think it's a complete change in saving. When I was diagnosed I sent a bunch flowers to my doctor and said thank you for the first day of the rest of my life and it was absolutely was, there's still been vulnerabilities and and and horrible experiences past post diagnosis but you know what it didn't go on for years, it was I'm out, this is done. I'm boundaries, I learn, you know, I learned everything because I knew and and it was a very, very lucky to have a great doctor. So it's it saves lives yeah. If you got any advice, Carly, for for somebody watching or listening who is going through that moment of clarity now, perhaps they've known for some time that they are our Audi HD and then they're going through that new journey now of realising actually autism is there too. Any emotional advice for somebody dealing with that transition? I think it depends on the age as well. I hear from a loss of teenage is really sadly that you know, autism has become like this derogatory term in the playground and they're quite happy to talk about their ADHD amongst their peers but they're not going to tell them that they're autistic as well because that's kind of seen as weird whereas ADHD in in the playground is is not seen as weird and sometimes a bit cool, you know, and not so it's trendy. It's very different than saying or not. But so I think if either they've got that and they don't feel that they can talk about that or they don't know that they're autistic as well, yeah, just be really really kind to yourself and with maybe one day we'll know is it kind of 70% overlap between autism and ADHD? You're not going to be the only one of your ADHD friends that finds out a couple of years later you're autistic. In fact, perhaps maybe 70% of them you're not going to be alone in that and I still get I think I'm quite good at spotting a fellow autistic or ADHD. Actually I always get it the other way around. So we thought I'm really good at it and they don't know yet or I'm really bad at it and I just get it the other way around so I'm like, oh you want to see you right now, I'm ADHD. Okay. What do you think some of the biggest tells are if if someone's speaking to you and they do you think you or ADHD? Oh okay. I can't say body language because I'm really bad at reading that. Normally if we start a conversation and we're both at the same time having a moving conversation but we're both at some points bringing our special interest back into that conversation. I'm like there's some autism isn't there? And I actually really enjoy that because I love I love being around other autistic people with special interest because I'm like I've just learnt some lies and I like in friendships or working relationships to either be the student or the teacher otherwise we're just breathing the same air. How dull. I'd much rather be going right tell me everything about this thing that you're really into oh my gosh that's so cool or simply have someone that's going tell me everything about this. So I love that you know I love that that learning is exciting it feels like it's got purpose and sometimes kind of like it's a lot of stimming going on. Sometimes people have whole pens. I'm joking. I'm dying. Diet Coke is another one I shouldn't say a brand name. Physicola if I tell people if I just say Coke it's going to be really bad at it right? Oh yeah Coke. It's like really weird things. It's nothing that would be scientifically measurable. It's just it's really really odd things and if it's in women or they actually don't have this special interest, although I would do work in it as well. There's too many jobs. In the minutes someone says horses to me, I'm going here we go. Everything's matching. It's horses, horses I think for younger girls could be like the top of the diagnosed thing. The diagnosis, do you like horses? Yep, okay, right all done. Those sort of things, there's so many, but they're like really weird, obscure things. I've noticed that I'm not a, obviously a professional assessor, but having observed many people that do have ADHD, it seems to be like in the absence of alcohol, and nothing else important, in the absence of alcohol, when I meet someone for the first time, the version of them that I see straight away, like the handshake, the good posture, they're almost like perfect announcement, about an hour later, they're almost like non-verbal. It's the polar opposite in terms of the energy, and it's, you can't say it, but it's quite sad because you can see how much of a disconnect there is between probably what's going on inside, and the version that they should feel they need to present as a first impression, and who they really are is probably somewhere in the middle, but because they've gone full steam with the handshake, the good announcement, the good posture, they've worn themselves out so quickly. Yeah. And in about an hour, they're, they're, they're, you can, and also you can tell they're anxious, because they're suddenly super aware of the contradiction within like how they present now compared to how they presented an hour ago, and they don't know how to get out of the situation, they don't know how to leave without coming across as rude. And no one's yelling "cut", right? Yes. It's like someone you're cut. I'm done now. Yeah. Gosh, it's fascinating. Do you have any life hacks, Carly? For somebody who perhaps is already HD, they would enable them to live with both of these conditions harmoniously, because we know that there's a lot of push and pull a lot of contrasting traits sometimes that can create challenges, but do you have any hacks that could bring them together harmoniously? Yeah. Well, I'm still kind of becoming aware of my own, one of the other aware that I've got high-fractive traits, but becoming, becoming aware that I'm probably both. And maybe that's just because I'm like just so rigid, I'm like no, my loyalty. I'm like is it being an autistic Torian? Super loyal, super rigid, I'm autistic, and that's where I'll be. So, obviously I got ADHD traits. With that though, I kind of find, if I know I'm having a super busy day, out of the house, here there and everywhere, I try to go, oh, that was a really great high-fractive day. So maybe I need to book in a really autism-friendly day and kind of pace it like that. No, obviously I'm not going to know. Who's going to have the controls up there at any point, and that could change even midday as to how that looks. But trying to make sure that I don't sign up for something which was something that frame of mind. And so what I try to do with that, so let's say I was going to go right, I'm going to get this job and I have to be up at four o'clock every day and I'm not going to get home to really, really lay, and I've got to sign up on a three-year contract to do that every day, five days a week. If I was doing that, whilst as in, like being super high-fractive, I'd like dream job, and then autism comes and goes, 'Oh, okay, what about our crazy days in bed?' Never agree to something when you're in a good mood. Yeah, so I think, yeah, exactly, they say never sign a thing if you're angry or sad or happy, don't they? So I will, if I get an invite to something, I tend to go, 'I'm going to check, I never used to do this, but I've learned free bits of experience, I'm going to check my diary and I'm going to get back to you within two days. I am checking my diary and I'm going to get back to you in two days, but actually what I'm doing is, 'A', looking at, not just the diary, have a lot of something in there, but how's what's that week, two weeks, going to look like, back to back. But I'm also kind of processing with myself, is this what I want to do? Or am I saying yes? Is this what I want to do? But I'm worried about, I'm so, so hyper aware of that sense of rejection that I don't want to reject someone, so I'm just going to say yes to it. And I just need that time to process, or literally pros and cons list, you know, and I have, I'll hide my phone over there, pros and cons list, you know, literally have those as to, these are the reasons why I should, these are the reasons why I shouldn't, and then see what outweighs it, and just give yourself, don't reply straight away to anything. Yes, such good advice. Putting that pause between someone asking you to do something and you reply into it is so important, because I feel like obviously the people pleasing element plus the fact that how we feel about ourselves and the energy we have fluctuates from day to day, also like all the masking that we've done we often don't have a good understanding of self. So it almost feels under those circumstances and in the pot of all of those ingredients, impossible for me to accurately say yes to a demand of my time in the moment, because I don't know how I'm going to be feeling in a week's time, and chances are in the next seven days, I'll probably realise that actually I don't want to go to that party, or I don't want to do that work assignment, and it's a lot easier, right, to change a no to a yes than it is to change a yes to a no. You know what, I've never been sort of that, that's brilliant. You're so right, because then hopefully people are pleasantly surprised, actually I can make it. That's really good. I'm going to use that now. I'm not going to say no to it. I then go actually, it's a yes, but I think that's easier to turn a no to a yes to a no, or at least it feels easier for us maybe. I wouldn't have been thought of that, that's really good. I want to move on to the most popular part of the show, Carly, which is audience questions, which is always unpredictable. I'm loving the washing machine, I used to have one of those in my dolls when I was little. That size? Yeah. Okay, yeah, I mean this is, and so your dolls must have been bigger, or the same size as the machine. No, that was just the size of the, no, oh yes, so no, the idea was that you put the dolly's clothes in it. I see, I see you mean, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so it was just when you used to have one in my room, can you put water in it? I suppose you wouldn't want to see if there's questions. Well, when I bought this, it did say on item description that it is usable as an natural, real mini washing machine, but I don't believe them, because it's got loads of holes in it. It's got great drainage. Yeah, yeah. It's a washing machine. The regular viewers will know that the audience questions go in the washing machine, and they are, the audience is woes, and it's called the washing machine of woes for that reason. Also because it represents memory loss for me, because I always forget to empty the washing machine after the cycle has finished. And then you have to run it again. Yes. So, you know, you have to do some of this. I have to do some of this. I will have a go at that. I will have a good app. What I did, Carly, was the last What I did, Carly, was the last The last audience, the last audience, the episode I did, I looked at the top audience, the top questions in the comments sections and the comments sections and the three questions with the most likes questions with the most likes. the most likes. the most likes. the most likes. The first question. The first question. My RSD is absolutely my RSD is absolutely my RSD is absolutely awful and sometimes it's sometimes it's made me do the sometimes it's made me do the unthinkable. How can I combat this? I think it's one of these things when we're trying to combat something. we then really, really focus on it and focus on it more, which can make it even trickier. And I think maybe if you know that that's your biggest struggle, is that rejection sensitivity, perhaps own it, and perhaps try the 10% rule, which is to go, okay, well I'm going to apply for, you know, if you apply for 10 things, you're going to get one yes, if you apply for 100, you're going to get 10 yes, is that sort of thing? I'm rubbish at maths, so I'm not going to go any higher than that, even though it's a round number. And because if you kind of go, okay, well, rather than really, really overthinking on this one thing that I might get rejected for, I'm going to hit my bets a bit and actually plan for rejection and then be pleasantly surprised. And a great, so I used to do smacking when I was younger, I was rubbish at it. But the one of the things that was also taught was for every no leads you to the yes. So, you know, and if you quit, you'll never get your yes type thing. It's quite pyramid-skim, actually, it's a game of worlds. This one's a yes, this one's a yes, it's not a bit of thought it is. But kind of just accepting that it's going to happen, but the rejection's got a lead you to it. What's it, what's it, rejection, redirection, not rejection? Every rejection is a redirection towards what you really should be doing. Yeah. And also it's a bit like, I love that film sliding doors. Yes, you know, sometimes. Yeah. I think rejection sometimes can be a blessing, blessing that we never save us from something we didn't know we need to be good and be saved from as well. So sometimes to learn to love it. I like to name my RSD, I call it Dave the Dragon, because I feel like RSD is very real. Obviously the pain is very true, but it's also not based in reality. I'm not actually upset by what you've said today. I'm upset because what you've said has reminded me of all of those 20,000 horrible comments. So it's very real, but it's not based in reality. And I feel like if I name it a dragon, you know, I can see a picture of a dragon, but I also know dragons aren't real. And when you sort of name it, you can disarm it and take away a lot of its power. I love that because you know it's mythical. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Next, Carly, the second most asked question, all DHD has been hell for me. How can I get these conditions to be my friend, not my enemy? I think it's a bit like the discussion about masking and apply that to which other part of being autistic and ADHD, which is the biggest challenge for you. And obviously there's great abilities and great challenges, isn't there with kind of mixed noratimes. So a bit like how we set the masking is, I've never got a bit able to get rid of it. So I'm going to have to make it my ally. And if it can't be your friend, at least give you an ally, you know, and put it to work and trying to perhaps reframe that into this is part of who I am. How can I make it work for me, rather than being a host, make it an employee? Yes. We've got rid of this for life. So start in my head, rent free, start paying the rent. And whatever that's going to be different for whoever roads it, but their biggest challenge going, okay, I'm going to make it work for me. Brilliant advice. Thank you so much, Carly. And finally, the most sought after question. I'm undiagnosed, but I know I'm all DHD. However, assessments are a nightmare. What can I do in the interim to stop my mind wearing out of control? Okay. So I understand that wearing out of control feeling because it's almost as if the waiting list weeds out. The ones that aren't anyway, you know, because it's, is that frustration? I mean, maybe maybe when you're waiting, and you know, like if you're ringing up or sending an email, right, who's sending the most emails, not to get them, just don't need to come in. We just know because you're really hyper focusing on it. I think knowing that the diagnosis isn't unfortunately going to be a magic one, if you're looking for medication or if you're in need of medication, then obviously absolutely. But if you're not, then you know, ask for those respawn adjustments that you need now. Don't feel that you have to wait. Don't feel they have to prove it. And I think that's really interesting in that kind of waiting, what we call the NHS waiting well period is if you've got rejection sensitivity. And then you go in to an assessment that you've waited for and you're then not diagnosed, even if you are because it might be clinical and experience or it might be that the bars too high for that particular area, oh, all sorts of different things, or it might be somebody that isn't understanding the expression in women, for example, I mean it's just going to be, you know, a punch in the stomach isn't it, you know, to say the least it's going to be horrendous. So, Brian, don't worry about the rejection of asking for help now or asking for respawn adjustments now and don't feel that you have to prove it. The only person really that should ever see your diagnostic report is you and your doctor. And that's it. We don't need to prove it. I mean education system in employment sectors and obviously if people are in receipt of benefit as well are led to believe that I have to show everyone this report to prove it and there's part of you that wants to prove it, but you absolutely don't have to prove it. But you are worthy in anything you need to make life easier for you as a reasonable adjustment in education employment, etc. And in a personal capacity but you know just go well I'm on the path of this diagnosis or you don't even have to tell them about that or just simply say this is what I need for this to work for me and this is where my boundaries are and this is where I might need some support. There's just own it already. Fantastic, life-changing advice really, Carly. Thank you very much. Thank you. Just finally every guest writes a letter to their younger self. Oh wow. And what then happens is I deliver the past guest letter to the current guest which is yourself. So I'm going to deliver you to your letter. This is beautiful. I'm going to deliver to you a letter which the previous guest is great. It's great. Oh yeah, on brand. Yeah. Are you agree? They're all green. Yes. Yeah. And there's me thinking I was just really lucky. I thought it was red. Oh I forgot. Sorry. I'm a chasing. Oh this is so cool. So the previous guest wrote to my younger self, remember that the most difficult challenges will lead you to great growth, put one fit in front of the other and trust in the process. That's gorgeous. Very nice. Nothing the cards Alex. Thank you. That's where the budget goes. That is absolutely on what lovely reminder as well. Absolutely. Thank you, Carly, on behalf of everyone, grappling to understand their brains. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you for making this show and how many thousand views is it now? 100,000? Was that last year did you say? Subscribers. Subscribers. I think it's like nearly 300,000 now. Wow. Yeah. It's really quite overwhelming. So we get like 450,000 downloads a month and on YouTube it's about the same. So nearly a million people every single month. I didn't tell you that at the beginning. I try to forget about that when we're in this nice little quiet room. Gosh. That's incredible. It's amazing work and helping so many people and me as I also now do the ponder of the duality of neurodivergence. Try not to be as black as white. Amazing. Carly, thank you so much. Thanks Alex.