Athletics Concept der Podcast - Follow up Folge 4 Freddy, woran hat et jelegen?

[MUSIC] Welcome to a brand new episode of the Micra Rare Podcast. Great to be here with you guys. Thanks for pushing play. Thanks for following along. Thanks for liking, subscribing. Whatever it is you do, I appreciate you. All right, my guest this week is Ryan Holiday, his friend of mine. We weren't really planning to do this podcast. It kind of just happened. So bear with us, we talk all about being an artist, being writer. A lot of the quirks and weird things about it and how we deal with it. Some of the problems that arise and we just kind of just riff on ideas and have a great time. So if you don't know who Ryan Holiday is, he's an author. He talks about philosophy, strategy, life, all of these things in his books. And he's very, very much a stoic philosopher. He studies the philosophy of stoicism. Marcus O'Rellius is his favorite, I guess you could say, philosopher. We don't talk a ton about his books. We just talk about what it means to live this life that we're living. And I think it's a great conversation. We had a great time doing it. So let's get into it. Here's Ryan Holiday. [MUSIC] Well, thanks for being part of it. Thanks for taking the time, man. Yeah, of course. I don't know what I'm doing going on. Welcome to Bremerton. Yeah, I've never been. Yeah, first time. What did you think it was going to be like? I'd be gentle. No, no, I guess I thought it would be grittier. OK. And it actually seems amazing and beautiful. And it seems like the same sort of era and style of Seattle, but quieter and-- Yeah. It's kind of like what I noticed when I go to Spokane, Eastern Washington. It's an older style city. And I feel like Bremerton has similar vibes as Spokane. But it's been modernized over the years. And now it's just-- it feels like a completely new place from where I grew up. Yeah, I grew up in Sacramento and it kind of had that vibe. And then I was back. And I was like, oh, I think I get it. Like I get the people that stayed and I also get the people that moved back. Yeah. But I feel like even though I never really left Bremerton, I've traveled so much. And for a long period of time that coming back, oh, that store's gone. Or there's a new restaurant. There's like new things constantly popping up. And that's something that I feel like is-- not everybody has that experience, because you're here the whole time or wherever you are in your hometown. So you don't see the drastic changes because it's happening every day. What's the town's relationship with you? Do they-- are you one of the sort of favored sons? Or I don't know what-- like, are you-- is everyone know you're here? Is it kind of that thing? And they're happy that you stayed? Or is it kind of like a love-hate relationship? What's the vibe? I think the vibe is good. I mean, it wasn't always like that when we were starting out. And MXPX first hit the road and we're touring. We left the local scene. That was rough when we would come back and play shows. Because we would have people that weren't happy about success, the success we were finding outside town. But lately, the last 10 years easily have been amazing. And we do have the key to the city. And I have it right here. That's fine. So we got the key to the city. I just got the key to the key to the city of Austin, which I don't really live in. Because I live in this town. Like I live in a town next door, but they gave it to me. But I thought it was interesting that I didn't get the key to the city of the one that I actually live in, which maybe says something about the relationship to the town that I have with the town that I do them. That's cool. That's probably just because politics and people in Austin wanted to do something cool. And they're like, okay, Ryan Holiday is doing really cool stuff. And Bastrop probably just isn't, is it Bastrop? You're talking about it. Yeah. Bastrop probably just isn't quite that savvy. It probably hasn't, I mean, maybe I'm wrong. I give people the benefit of that way too often. It is weird living in a small town that you're not from. Because there can be kind of like, I'm not a hostility, but there's like a awareness where they're like, we don't know what you're about or what you, you know, and then also like, when you meet people that are, and they go, where do you live? And then you're like, oh, I live in this town. And people are like, are you from? Like, they think that the only reason that you would live in a not major city is that you're from there. Right. Right. Because I was like, no, I just like, I like it. I chose this. Yeah. I think the main thing I get nowadays is, oh, you're back. Yes. Because everybody thinks I moved away from Bremerton to Texas, which technically yes, we did, but we never left Bremerton. We've always been kind of both. Both. Yeah. Yeah, I get that people will be like, welcome. And I'll be like, I've lived here for 15 years. You know, like, like, like, what? Yeah. But like, it's just, I wasn't on your radar. So you think I'm new, but I might actually have been here long. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know when this is coming out, but I mean, I'm doing this show for the World Cup fan zone in downtown Bremerton. And it's cool to be able to do something for the city where I don't have to sell tickets. Like, I don't have to like really worry about the marketing aspect of it. I mean, I'm helping out, of course, but it's really just about fun. It's about being able to do something, give back. And I'm like, am I finally in that era of giving back, you know, from my life, what I've accomplished in life? And I'm still working on things, of course, but like, okay, yeah. Now I can actually maybe be part of the community a little bit more, but as a punk kind of guy that's, you know, been DIY for so long, it is a little, I don't know, I have my own self-doubt when it comes to meeting people in the community, meeting other business people, business leaders, community leaders. I've had that sort of thing in the back, like, oh, I'm just a musician. But it's not, and it's like, no, you're not just a musician. You're an artist, but you're part of the community just as much as anybody. And you've been contributing, you know, not only economically, but socially for quite a while. And I have to like, talk myself into being okay with all this, this, uh. I think there's an expression in something like, every man secretly wants to be honored in his hometown. Yeah, you know? Like, you want to be called back to like, to like, talk at your high school graduation or, you know, you want to be given the key to your city. Like because there's something about that that's like, it's like your dad saying I'm proud of you or something. You know, like, there's something about that, especially if you haven't gotten it because what you've done is controversial or, you know, outside the box or whatever, there is something nice about being like, oh, they get it. They like me, you know? They really like me. Yeah, they really like me. You're right, you're so right. I'm such a kid that way. But I mean, so you're from California, so moving to Texas, that's kind of similar because I moved from West Coast as well to Texas. It's just something romantic about getting out into the country though. I kind of, I always enjoyed it when we tour out there because it's so different. It's so big too. It's just like unfathomably big. And there's, yeah. And so you could have your space. That's what I like about it. I also like being in the middle. I mean, I wouldn't say it's a huge part of it, but like being in the middle of the country, if you travel a lot, it's very, oh yeah. I definitely try to like, okay, we're going to be in Texas. I can fly to Florida, New York, wherever. Totally. It's so much easier. So getting into, I mean, you're an author, you write books. Yeah. I'm a songwriter, I write songs. I actually kind of like to write in different spaces. How does that for you? Is it the opposite? What is it like? Do you get inspired when you go out? I like, to me writing is, I think maybe songwriting is a little bit more inspirational based than book writing. Book writing, I think, is more workmen like in the sense that you're, because like you're working on it and working on it and working on it and reworking. I think, and it's part of a much larger whole, you know, where I think each song is a self-contained thing, even if it fits inside of an album. So for me, it's much more about, yeah, like the more uninterrupted periods of being in one place at one time in some kind of a rhythm or routine, the better it is. Then the irony is, of course, like I travel all the time. I'm gone a lot. So like, there's a tension there. But yeah, I like to write in my office at the same time with as few interruptions as possible and the more that I allow things into fuck with that, the more trouble I'm in. I actually, I have a quote on my wall next to where I write and it's this conversation between Johnny Cash and his manager and the manager was saying, like, you got to have like this vault, this sort of mausoleum that like, no one can get in, not your wife, not the manager, not the press, not the fan, where you just like do your thing. And kind of my office is like for me that, just like the space of doing it. And I'm showing up and doing a little bit every day and you know, six months or a year. or two years or five years later, you have something close to publishable. - Yeah. - But it's, I mean, I can, like I wrote a little bit this morning and I wrote on the airplane yesterday. Like I can do little pieces, but like if it's like a difficult thing or a big thing, it's like I need to be in my space. I need to have all my stuff laid out. I'm very, I like that actually. I mean, I think traditionally songwriters started out, I mean, everybody's a little different, but I started out writing in different places all the time. But I do kind of have a similar thing that you're talking about, like a space, a mausoleum, a tomb where you can go. - Yeah. - And it takes a few days to sort of, for me to like kind of like get into songwriting mode. And I know M&M's talked about how he carries a notebook on him all the time. 'Cause he's always ready to write. He's always in that mode. And 'cause it is a mode, like it's like a thought process. It's a, whatever it is. But to live in that all the time is not easy. It is not for me anyway, you know? - No. I like that more than the other modes though. So like to me, like the sort of canary and the coal mine and the warning sign that like, I mean, they're agreeing too much or things are going crazy in my life is like if I haven't been doing that consistently, that's a problem. So I like, and like Samantha can like tell, she's like, oh you haven't, you know? It sort of, it backs up and then there's kind of a frustration or like just a tenseness that's there. So yeah, I think, there's definitely moments where I'm like, oh, like something hits me and I'm writing it down or I'm writing down, it strikes, but like, for me I have to show up to work. I have to show up to work at the office. And that's like where the most of it comes in. A lot of artists kind of have that tension that whatever it is that bothers them and they need to, whatever it is, do something to get that free, free and clear of their day. Sometimes it's just straight up writing, right? Just getting it out. For some people it'd be as simple as having a cup of coffee, right? - Yeah. Coffee, cigarette, whatever. So like, for me it's not necessarily like that 'cause I can go days and days and weeks without writing and without really doing any, but I have to be doing something. - I have to be doing something. - I could, I probably don't, but I just have to be doing something. So because of, you know, I'm not just writing songs, I'm doing videos, I'm making podcasts, we're doing practice with the band. So I'm making set lists. So I'm always doing something and I think that's what scratches that. And same thing, my wife will be like, you probably need to go to the studio. You're, she doesn't say dysregulated, but it's something similar to what kids get. - No, no, I feel the same with running. Like if I'm not running or swimming or, and then walks, like I have these things that I do that get me to even, where I'm like a somewhat functioning human being and if I don't, I'm just like a mess to be around. But I would be curious if I should have two questions there. So for you, because unlike what I do, like there's another form of expressing, like there's writing and then there's playing music and there's not really an equivalent of that, I guess, for like an author or a journalist or whatever. Like reading is not really the same as doing it. But is playing creatively, fulfilling and cathartic for you as a musician or it's writing its own distinct. - I mean, they're definitely distinct. But I think playing, the closest thing an author would have would be if you're doing talks, right? - Yeah. - You're in front of an audience and you get that tension, you get that tension of, I might screw this up. That's something you don't get writing a book maybe. And in the same way, there's probably like pressure, but it's a different kind of pressure. - There's no such thing as low stakes. - Yeah, 'cause you can always, okay, I'm gonna rewrite that chapter 'cause I didn't, so in the same way, making a record, I can redo the vocal. I hadn't seen that good or good enough. I didn't believe myself. And that's very important to me is like believing what I'm saying and sounding like I'm actually believing what I'm saying. You know, I have to actually believe it, I guess, but you gotta sound like you believe it. But, and then when you're playing live, yeah, the tension, the fact that I could screw this up, and then too, there's these people that probably like me, but then there's other people that don't even know, you know, this is all these thoughts that probably go through your head. They go through my head probably in a way that I'm not necessarily thinking about consciously, but it's there. And I use that energy, and I use the nervousness almost to perform. - Yeah. - Like it gives me energy. And that's something I haven't always had. Like when we were young growing up and touring, you're kinda doing it at such a, I don't even know how to describe it, such a low thought level. Like 'cause we're just kids. So everything was just like, what is happening? You know, we're pushing, one moment, we're in the van, the next moment that we've broken down on the side of the road, and we're pushing the van, and then we're back on the road, and we get to the gig, and we're late, so you set up, and so everything was just like, you don't know what's happening, right? And once you do that for years and years and years, things change, now it's like, okay, now, now I need to be nervous about the actual show, because I've kind of figured out how to get to the show, although we've talked about our flight troubles and travel trouble, you know, it still happens no matter what level you're at. But I think it's kind of weird that I got more nervous as maybe as we got bigger and bigger, and the travel thing was kind of taken care of, we weren't gonna break down quite as much, and there was less to think about in that way, and more to think about each show is, to me, each show is so important. Like that person that's watching us in this town may never see us again, and I want them to have a good impression of what we're doing. And I thought about that every single show we did, and we've done thousands of shows. So it's just like, no wonder my brain's tired after all, I'm just constant. - What I was thinking about, I used to think that, like, writers talk about this, like how many words a day do you write, you know, and that's like sort of how they measure it. And then I heard this great rule that was like, just a couple crappy pages a day. Like, so it was like lowering the stakes. You know, like as long as you put in the time, and they could suck, but you have to do them. And then now I've kind of changed it where it's like, I just have to make a contribution every day. So sometimes that can be adding words, like a lot of words, and sometimes it can be like, taking away words. Like on the plane, here I was like, okay, all I have to do is, there was this paragraph that I've been sort of working on, I was like, okay, I don't have to write, I just have to, I have to tighten some things up here. So I was like, as long as I open it up and I work on that, I've taken this lost travel day, and it's like somewhat productive. You know, like so I think about it as like, am I making some kind of contribution a day? And if I'm doing that every day, that adds up in a big way. That's helped me regulate a little bit, regulate my things that I used for regulation. Because then I'm not like, I'm not like, oh, if I don't get here by this time and do this amount that it's a problem, it's like a very achievable, but still, in as a whole significant contribution, that's kind of how I think about it day to day. So do you kind of just think like, hey, as long as I'm doing something every day, I'm doing my job? - Yeah, I have that, I don't know, we call it punk rock guilt, but it's also just guilt of like not doing enough, you know, and I think a lot of people these days with the society we live in, the go-go-go society is we all have that in some way. So it's not just artists, but I do have that overall guilt of like, if I'm just hanging out with the family, oh, I should be working, but it's like, no, no, no, this is hanging out with the family is actually great, no matter what you're doing, just be with your people. And so I do have to tell myself that, remind myself over and over, because I know that there's plenty of times where I do, I'll spend hours editing a video that will never even get released. But I'm just doing it at, who knows why I start doing it, and then I realize, oh, I'm just wasting my time, you know, but I can't stop, like it's kind of fun. So I just let myself do that kind of stuff. I just can't, because I'm not working for somebody else, I let it go. If I was working for somebody else, I'd probably feel more guilty, like wasting time. But there's so much of what I do, and I feel like, doesn't actually lead to an actual finish, but there's other things that do get finished. And sometimes you don't know what it is you need to be doing, right, like I'm my own boss, so you wake up to some days and you're just like, I know I need to be doing something, and I can't even remember. I'm not as good as you about putting it in the calendar all the time. Like when I have an appointment with somebody, I'll put it in the calendar, sure. But aside from that, if it's just my own work, it could be random. And so when you're doing, you know, you're just contributing something every day, you're not necessarily scheduling when to take away from this paragraph or this chapter. but you know it needs to be done in the back of your head. And so until that happens, it's kind of floating around back there. That's my whole work ethic, is things floating around until they like, oh, yeah, yeah, let's work on that. And then of course, when there's an actual event happening, you know, we're playing all the warp tours coming up all summer, yeah, I'll be on, that's my main focus is what's the actual thing coming up. Yeah, you're like, I'm performing tonight, that's my job. I don't have to. I try to go like, yeah, like, look, my job is to get from point A to point B today, like literally, I have to try, so I can do this thing tomorrow. I don't need to like, if I get other stuff done, that's great, but I don't need to feel guilt. Like that's my job today is just to, you know, like, successfully make it to the airport. Yeah. Or whatever. Or my job today is to, is to get these documents printed that I need to go over. But I, and like, everything else is extra, you know, as long as I do this baseline, everything, everything else is extra. And then I think what you find is that you get a lot of the extra done a lot and you don't have that sort of like guilt and self-loathing and frustration and stuff. Yeah, some of the best days are like the super busy days where you haven't even had time to look at your phone. You're just one thing after the other and you realize, wow, we accomplished a lot. Yeah. When you can actually plan it and do it and make it happen. And that happens with bands like, obviously, when we're recording, but when we're doing music videos or photo shoots, there's just like things that you do, but you don't do every day of your life. Yeah. It's just, you got to do it for the project you're working on. And so that's, that's when I feel the most accomplished. It's like when we do the big things. And being a musician strikes me as hard though because like, you're dependent on other people in some way, who are also their own boss. Yeah. Like, like, I like, like, I can't handle, I'm not like a collaboratively minded person. In the sense that like, I, I don't like coordinating with other people's schedules. You know, like, that strikes me as hard or it's like, that is hard, especially with musicians. Like, because I, obviously, I've go straight into a couple of books and different times there have been like musician themed projects. And it's like the weird schedules and the march to their own beat thing with like, I'm like, I can't live like this. Yeah. It's like, I can't, like, I can't meet you at the studio at midnight. Just like, I already had a full day, guys. Was there was there one guy that wanted to meet at the at the studio at midnight? Oh, yeah, I was supposed to do this book with, with Birdman and Slim, the founders of Cash Money Records. I got five on it. Yeah, it was, it was a surreal part. But yeah, they would, they would ask me to meet at like 11 or 12 at night. And then they would get there at like one or two. You know, so it was like, I can't, this is insane. I can't live like this. Like, I'm not, I'm, I'm not like a suit and that I don't ever dress up. But like, I, I keep regular person hours. I can't that part of the rap thing life. I can't do that's a hip hop thing, I think for the most part because I don't know, I mean, maybe back in the day, some of the rock guys, some like would go late, late, like that. But I mean, I think for the most part rock and punk rock bands, we started a normal time like noon. Maybe a lot. And then we go all day till like midnight or one or two in the morning and, and you know, there's been sessions where we've been up all night and you start going a little crazy after while. So I'm just wondering what the, I mean, I've heard this about other hip hop acts showing up at 1 a.m. 2 a.m. 3 a.m. What are they doing during the day? Are they at the club before that? How are they staying awake and when do they take naps? Like when does Wiz Khalifa take a nap? What is funny too? Because like, you know, hip hop, it's funny. Like a lot of the lyrics in Sephirabell, like the grind and the work and whatever. And I was like, guys, from what I see, you're starting work at midnight, you're playing video games for two hours. Like it's not that it's, it's just actually wildly inefficient. You're working at 3 in the morning by choice. It's not like, it's not like you started at 9 and you're still working at 3 a.m. Like you, you're, you're just turned your schedule upside down. But yeah, like I can't, I don't know. I think, I think like it's been interesting because I'm kind of like on this tour now and I've been doing more like things that like two theaters or venues. And like, it's what's new for me about is that I don't typically work at night. Like most of most corporate things or conferences are in the middle of the day or actually front loaded towards the morning. So it was weird. Like I did it to, I did like a European tour and I, I try to take the family when I can because I don't like being gone for a long period of time. And like it was weird. There would be like, you know, my kids would get up at 7 and we'd do like all this stuff and then be like, Oh, now I have to go do like the actually the hardest part of my day. Yeah. 8 o'clock. I couldn't, I wasn't even remotely like set up for a schedule like that. But I think, so I think for like comedians and musicians part of it. Although, yeah, it's definitely worse in hip-hop because there's like this sort of club culture after. But like when you're starting your day at night time, you can't have a regular person day and then a nighttime day job. So like you're, you're just, you're a little like out of balance because like your stuff's so late in the day. And then you're wired after you can't, you can't work from 7 to 9 30 and then go to bed. That's true. Yeah. I mean, same thing with me. I mean, I'm no hip-hop schedule guy. But I do sleep in late if I can. Like if it's a tour or if it's like I'm waking up in the city, I'll sleep until like 11 if I can. Of course, I'm not actually asleep, but I'm just laying there just resting. That's my ideal thing. And then I would get up, go to soundcheck, do that thing. Like do you ever take naps when you have the full day? Well, it's, yeah, like when I'm traveling, you know, people are like, Oh, to my wife, they're always like, Oh, you know, so much. She's like this, and she's like, fuck that guy. He's not. He naps twice today. You know, it's like a nap on the plane. I napt in the hotel. She, she, like she knows that it's like, for at least what I do. Like it's, I'm, I'm like, I'm living fantasy life. You know what I'm on the road. Right. I'm like, I have all I have, it's like, yeah, all I have to do today is get room service from the hotel and then perform at the thing and then catch my flight home or whatever. Like I don't, I really don't have, I didn't have to take anyone to school. I didn't have to clean anything up. I didn't have to walk any dogs. You know, I didn't have to do, I didn't have to go to my office. I didn't have to film anything. I didn't have to record anything. Like I had one thing to do today. Yeah. It just happened to, it happens to pay well and be a little stressful. And like if you're not used to being in front of an audience, it's scary. But like once that's out of the picture. Like that's like, that's like my me time. Yeah. Yeah. Road time is me time. I'm, it's kind of scary to even get into this subject because I don't want to give like myself away too much. Yeah. People that think I'm actually out there working really hard. But I am, but, but like you said, you know, you're, you kind of have like I literally use my whole day to prepare for that show. Yeah. You know, that show at night. And whenever the show is, it doesn't have to be at night, but it usually is for us. So it is a weird thing looking outside in somebody that doesn't realize how much brain power it really takes to perform. And I think the hardest thing for me to do is to play when I'm tired to play when you're not because yeah, we jump around on stage, but it's a mental thing. It's when you're mentally tired that I start forgetting words or I don't know how to talk to the audience all of a sudden. So if I'm like stumbling my words at a show, it's usually because I'm just tired. It's just mentally fatigued and there's really no way to get around that. But I think Naps definitely help. And no, I'm not a nap guy, but I got admit it does help. That is, and it's taught me that. I noticed that, like I used to be able to work on airplanes. So I'd be like, Oh, I've got like a four hour flight to New York. I'm gonna get a bunch done. And then as soon as I had kids, it's like lights out. Immediately get on the plane. I'm asleep. Yeah. So like Naps big. I do think it's also interesting. I don't know, I don't know where musicians fall in the spectrum, but I tend to find most writers are introverted. Like if you're really extroverted, you're probably not the kind of person that goes that spends a lot of time alone in your room trying to figure out how to explain things. You know, like like you just you're just you're able to express yourself social. I do think part, I think introversion tends to drive people into some of these creative pursuits. And so like it's weird because I didn't you become a writer because you're introverted. And then if you succeed at it, you're put in a lot of extroverted situations. Yeah. So like the hard part is actually not going and doing it. The hard part is how you feel after because you just like as they say like extroversion is like do you feel filled up or drained after you're around a lot of people? And it's like no, no, no, I'm like exhausted after not not so much from the one hour talk, although my voice can sometimes it's like yeah, I just talked for 90 minutes and my voice is a little more, but it's mostly just the it's the I had to meet this person in the green room beforehand. And then they had to walk me through the thing. And then I had to say hello to these 17 people. And then yeah, then I had to do the thing. And then I had to do the Q&A. And then I had to meet the people after. And then I then I had to talk to the driver back to the hotel like that is that the performance part in the middle is the least hard part. It's all the socially draining things on either side of it. Yeah. And it's extra draining because you know all those people are excited to see you. And if if you are not your true self, but if if you don't handle those interactions well, it's hurtful to them. In. And I had some bad experiences or other people had bad experiences with me early on because I didn't realize that. Yeah. And I didn't realize, oh, people are people like you and they want a good experience. And if you don't talk to them, they're going to think you're a jerk. And it was just one of those things because you're a kid and you're not being told there's no like sure there was some adults around, but they weren't thinking about that kind of thing. They were thinking about, how can we make money off these kids? But it is interesting how in life you learn things just by screwing up constantly. And we definitely did that. At one point, we actually got like interview lessons. Did you ever hear about that like media lessons? Media training. Yeah, I guess that would be the correct thing. We took some media training at one point because I mean, I would be doing interviews and I'd be talking like this, answering questions and not realizing, hey, people are watching you on a TV, speak clearly, raise your head up and things like that that, I don't think about. I'm not watching the video of yourself to see how you're doing. Exactly. It's weird. Exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, there's people that are definitely more just naturally entuned with that. Well, I think some people get into music or art or movies or whatever because actually what they want to do are the interviews. Right. Like, like, like, like, I think I've joking about this before, but I think it's like, I think some people become like car dealers or real estate agents because they want to be in the commercials. Like the whole thing. Like, that, they wanted the thing that allows them to do the extroverted create like public facing thing. And then, and then there's other people who are into it because they love whatever the specifics of the thing is. And then they understand that that's either a responsibility or a perk or just a, you know, a part of the job. But like, yeah, you can definitely tell who's like, oh no, they want, they want to put out the album to do the media about it. And then there's the people who they put out the album and the part they dread about it is like, all the media that has to come with the press viewer for the actor or whatever. And then I think a lot of people are somewhere in between. But like, for me, what I hate about it, I hate it, not, I don't hate song work, but like, for me, it's not so much like the individual draining interviews or whatever. It's more like, all of a sudden there's like this big chunk of my day for many days in a row that I have to spend not doing the thing I actually like doing, which is the work. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's very similar again to being an artist. You put out an album, it's like putting out a book, you got to do the press tour, you got to do all the interviews. And you've got like, okay, Japan, they're going to call you from, you know, for like three hours straight, you'll have like four or five, six, seven interviews. And you're just on the phone and they're like, hello, hi, how you doing? You're trying to listen. It's, you know, it's just one of those things, you know, and it's almost like, yeah, it's not something. It's not like they're our favorite part of the job. But if that went away, what would we do? You know, like, what are we going to do now? But in that does go away. I mean, because as technology and different modes of ways of market records, I mean. And at some point, you'll, you'll, you'll, like some, I was talking to this athlete that I know and he was, they were going to do this like documentary about like this team that he was on. And he was like, I don't know if I should do it, you know, it's like a lot of time and he's like, I don't know if they're going, whatever, he was thinking about doing it. And I was like, okay, at this point in your, your life, your career, you're probably seeing it as not that fun. But I was like, think about the athletes that are like 60 or 70 or 80 who have all these stories. They're, at some point in your career, your life, you'll be dying to tell people this or to share your side of what happened. And no one will be asking, right? Right. Like it'll go away. And so I'm not saying you have to say yes to every interview. And in fact, like, that's a bad idea. But like if you haven't done it once. And don't take it for granted that people are going to ask for your side of the story always. At some point, they're going to move on. And so you should tell it at least once. Yeah. That's great advice. I think it's kind of weird because I mean, growing up before the internet, growing up before phone cameras really, you know, there's so much chunks of my life that is just gone, right? Like it's like I have memories. But I don't have like a document, a document of it. Yeah, it's on different phones or different devices. And I don't know where it is anymore. Exactly. And if you have the opportunity where somebody's wanting to bring a team of people and like put together something, I mean, that's kind of amazing. You know, if you've done something that important to somebody, I mean, it's not important everybody. But you know, and I feel like that, I feel like someday, you know, we'll do an MXPX. Well, we've done documentaries already. But somebody will do like a full, full thing, you know, in the twilight years of our career. But you know, and then we'll get all the bad guys together to tell, you know, because we want to tell the real story and not just all the fluffiness and, you know, you know, make sure people know about the mistakes we've made over the years. And, you know, we've gotten lucky because we have made a lot of mistakes business wise. But it hasn't screwed our career completely. Like it's just taken us down this path versus this path. And I found that honestly, it's like we all make mistakes in life and you just have to keep moving. I wouldn't be, I wouldn't have the family I have now, you know, would be married, have the family I have now without some of those mistakes, right? So I just always try to not dwell on the mistakes, but just be grateful even for some of those. I feel like those mistakes, at least for a musician, one of the, not silver linings, but one of the things that you are able to do is translate them pretty readily or quickly into music. That's a good, I mean, our last album, "Find A Way Home." There's like five songs that mention mistakes in them. So I mean, it was a theme for that record. So I think I was just kind of looking back on all the bad things I've done in my life, things I regret writing about them. You know, sometimes you just got to exercise certain things. And now I feel like when we wrote this new record, we have a new record that's not out yet. It was different. It was like, okay, I don't have to write about the same things anymore. Even though to somebody that doesn't necessarily listen to punk or our music, it might all sound the same. But, lyrically, I feel like it was like a new, a new chapter that I opened up. Which is cool. Because you had some record label problems at different points. Don't you have a song about one of those? Yes. What's mine is yours. Yes. Yeah. Because there's a quote I like from Borgis where he's saying that the job of the artist is to take the worst things that happened to you and transform them into material. That's like the gift and the opportunity of the profession. And I remember reading that and that was not that long after that song came on when it's Spotify. And I was like, oh, that's an example of that. And I think that's also why when artists get so successful and they're just loaded, money, everything's good, the new music they write isn't as interesting. And I don't know. I mean, there's always exceptions to that, of course. But like, it does seem true that once you're very comfortable in life, you might still write a good song, but I ain't going to be about the same struggles that you had before. And so it makes it harder to relate to your audience. Maybe that's why why people do end up shooting themselves in the foot on purpose or subconsciously. It's really like chaotic lives is that it's somewhat artistically stimulating. Yeah. It gives them more material. Whether they're complaining about it all the time, but if they didn't have something to complain about, what would they do? Right? It's like when you solve a problem in your life, there's usually a new way. A new problem that arises. Yeah. But if you don't solve that problem, that problem stays the main problem. I've felt that way with injuries over the years. I've felt that way with house stuff. Like if you fix something in your house, something else breaks. It could be a car thing. It could be your business, whatever it is. Right? I just feel like it's like maybe that's part of the simulation we live. But if you solve a problem, other problems come up. Sometimes they're worse than what happened before. You know, not always, but it's kind of weird how that can happen. Yeah. And I also find that when you solve a lot of the problems in your life, it not only your problems not go away, but like what that does is it creates weirder and weirder problems because you've addressed all the normal problems. Yeah. You know? Like I think so it's like just different weird stuff happens that like you know wouldn't be possible at an earlier phase in your life because you sort of you've like you've handled all the obvious. It's like you've you've like water sealed all the obvious places. And so now water suddenly coming in from the chimney or whatever you're aware of how what's like it can't go anywhere else. But yeah, do you think about that like when you're going through stuff, they're like, oh, I could write about this or like do you think I usually, I mean because like you were saying before songs can kind of be their own thing and you can fit it into an album or not. I honestly come up with song ideas just on their own like if it's like a catchy line, a catchy top line, a title. a first line, most honestly, most of my songs just start with a first line and then I just go from there and I don't know what the song is about. The first line of the song is what, where you start with interesting. Yeah, just first line of the song, it's got to be catchy and sometimes that'll change as I write more, something that'll make its way to the top, like I'll write, if I have a really good handle on the verse, I'll just write all the verses and I have no, if I have no idea what the chorus is going to be yet, I'll just put it off until later and just keep writing more lyrics in the form of the verse and then I usually try to write extra verses so that if there's a line or two that don't make sense, then I can switch them out and just, okay, what am I trying, what am I trying to say now and then I figure it out as I'm writing? I usually don't sit down and go, I'm going to write a song about the declaration of independence. Yeah. So it's usually like, oh this is about the declaration of independence. I didn't realize that until I got a verse in. Right. Because for me, it's all about the cadence and the way everything sounds and that catches you, it hooks you. It's a hook, right? So for me, it's all about the hook and then I go from there. That's sort of, so every day I have to write the Daily Stoke email, right? It's done this every day for 10 years and a lot of times weirdly it happens when I'm listening to music, I'll hear a lyric or a line and then I'll be like, oh I could write a Daily Stoke email about like, I just wrote one about tonight, tonight, the smash and pumpkin song. There's so many, he has that line about like the the resolute urgency of now. I was like, oh that's a great. And then he has another one where he's like, you can never, ever leave without a piece of your, you're like, there's a line in the song about how you're always leaving a piece of your youth behind you. And I was like, oh, okay. So there's two Daily Stoke emails there. So I wrote, I oftentimes like, I write them around song lyrics. Just as I'm always listening to music, I tend to write while listening to music and I also run and walk while listening to music. So I'm always finding, it's like, the songs were probably written about hooks and then I'm finding hooks inside the songs and then I use that. Sometimes I'm specifically referencing it. Sometimes I'm just, you know, I'll just sort of allude to it, but I think that's, I, some idea or thing hooks me and then that's what I build the email around. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of people that listen to music just based on how those words sound coming out or, you know, the hook of the sound of it. And they don't realize what the song's about. Yeah. Which is fine. I mean, I listen to plenty of songs where I don't even know the lyrics and then you see the lyrics. You're like, that's what they're saying. It makes sense, but okay. I have no idea. I was going to ask you about this because I love Bonnie Ver. I think Justin Vernon is genius. Okay. But one of the things I don't like about his music so much is that a lot of his lyrics are straight nonsense. Like you, you, it's incredibly moving and his stuff is weird, especially like he started as this kind of singer-songwriter, but the music got like, weirder and weirder as well. Yeah. Some of it still works. But then, so you don't always know what's happening, but you think you understand the vibe of the song, and then you look it up and you're like, what the fuck is this? This is not like, and I can't, I can't, like on the one hand, art is art. So like, whatever the artist puts in, you know, if Duke Hampton decides to flip a toilet upside down, like that's the art. The artist, the choice is what makes it art. At the same time, and I don't know if I like, I don't like, I think the lyrics have to make sense. I think that should be a law. Like I think the lyrics have to make sense. I don't like when they don't make sense. Yeah, maybe that's a Nirvana thing because I mean, once Nirvana was huge and nobody knew it, they were saying there was meaning to the songs, I'm sure, but yeah, I mean, I'm with you. I like songs to make sense as a songwriter, but I don't necessarily always, not every line makes sense to people that I write. Sure. But they, I'm pretty sure, I'm sure there's probably one or two, but for the most part, it makes sense to me. It's just not necessarily like easy for people to get what I mean. And so a lot of times people actually think the song's about something different than what I'm trying to say. But my brain just works in weird ways where I think about things and I make connections in weird ways. And I just let that go. Even if people don't get it, I just, that's the way I write. Yeah. So, um, Yuri, our drummer likes my lyrics, and that's good enough for me. Yeah. I think, like, uh, Rick Rubin has that device where he says, I think, and I think system of down did this for one of their famous songs where he's like, he just grabs a book off the shelf and like picks the phrase. I don't know. I feel like I, I want it to be, I want it to work on multiple levels like it. Yeah. They were all like deliberately chosen. I don't know if I like the randomness of the, and it doesn't actually make sense where it yeah. I don't know. Well, I mean, there are different types of songwriting, like Bonnie Verre probably reads a lot of weird novels and like just, I don't know who knows. I haven't, listen to his interviews or anything, but, but you, what you ingest really does come out in your songwriting and your art and, and, you know, I think, I think when you, you put these things into your head, um, like when you're reading, like maybe you're reading a book with all these different grammar types and you're, you know, I've had all these different books, I guess my point is over the years, where I've tried to learn more about vocabulary, what certain things do to certain other words, and, you know, I really don't internalize that so much, but I have spent time in the past, kind of learning it. So I feel like, okay, maybe that helps me, but if I ever come to a point where I just don't know what to say, then I know that I haven't been reading enough. So I actually go and try to read novels, just nonfiction, or sorry, fiction, usually not nonfiction, even though nonfiction's better for you, right? But, but, but I would totally push back on that. Okay, good. I think, I think, reading is reading and honestly, I would like, look, first off, most people don't read enough, right? So, like, that's the main problem. And then I would say, of people who read, myself included, we probably read too much nonfiction and not enough. Like fiction, to me, I think, activates you more on artistic, creative, empathetic, sort of like, expanding your world sense, and then nonfiction. I mean, look, if you're reading like history and philosophy and stuff, and probably not a problem, but I think, and I feel like I'm qualified to say, if you're just reading self-help, self-improvement, you know, like, business professional books, like, you're probably not getting the full benefits of what reading can really give you. So I think, I totally agree that reading fiction is, I think, I think, I think sitting down with reading a novel is one of like, is like eating your vegetables. Okay. Is it eating your vegetables choice? I think it's good for you. With some sugar, if it's a good book, I mean, I mean, I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like, book, Brussels sprouts were disgusting, but like, they made them taste better. Yeah, yeah. And then now how they cook them, they're amazing. So, yes. Yeah. No, you're right. Yeah. So basically, the, what I, in my brain, when I can't think of words, I just automatically think, I am dumb right now. I need to start reading more books, and I will literally just start reading. And it might just jumpstart a word. I'll just read a word that I forgot about. Like, oh, yeah, I've never think of that word. And that's literally what you kind of need, right? Like, I used to read a lot of Dean Koons books. I know he's like a horror novel of the day. Mystery, mystery horror, dogs that can talk monsters in the woods, things like that. But like, the way he put his ideas together, the way he described things would help me in songwriting. I would just be like, okay, all right, he used Palmfron. I'm not going to use that in a song, but I wouldn't normally use that in conversation, right? So that's literally what I, I don't, I don't even know. I'm sure I learned it from some somewhere, but that's kind of what I do. Well, that goes to what I was saying about like, a positive contribution every day. So it's like, if you, if your view was like, no, I got to write a song every day, or for me, it's like, no, I have to write 2000 words every day. Actually, maybe the best thing that you could do is spend a chunk of tomorrow morning reading a novel. Now, that might not feel like you're working, but that could, that could creatively fuel you for several weeks, right? And so I absolutely, I like, I have to remind myself that there are different ways to contribute to what you do. And it's not always like the generative part of it. And it like, it might be that I need to call someone and just like, talk about what I'm working on for a while. And like, that, that just amps me up. And then tomorrow, that's really valuable to me. Do non artists just call people and talk about their work? You know, because I think artists do do that. Yeah. Like writers and band people talk, and we call each other now and again. And like, like the other day, some, some guy know, he sort of stopped by the bookstore. And usually again, the introvert said things. I'm like, great. Now I have like, entertain this person. This kind of interruption. But like, we ended up walking in and I, I started just talking through like what I was working on. And it, it actually like, unjammed me in a way that I didn't know I was jammed. Like, I think Seth go and just talked about this where he said, like, nobody gets talkers block. You know, right. And because like, because the stakes are so low, and it's only when you're sitting down to do the thing that you get stuck. And so by just talking about it with this person, I sort of cleared this whole path for like the next couple days. Yeah. It's like when you're like having a argument with somebody and then not that this happens often. But like, you're like, I should have said that after the fact, right? You're like, I should have done this. I should have said this all this. And you think of it all after in the heat of the moment. It's so hard. And that's similar to writing is like, man, if we could just record all our thoughts, we would have the best stuff. It's because it's - I think out of the, the moment, that is the beneficial thing where you're just kind of, it's kind of working up there in the background or what. - Yeah, yeah. Well, Daily Stoic, I mean, that's been huge. You've been doing that. - Yeah, it was a weird surprise. - You've written a ton of books. Do you wanna tell everybody, or should we do, should we talk about the books you've written and then maybe some book recommendations to end it out? - I mean, I'm more excited to talk about book recommendations, but yeah, Daily Stoic, I mean, I started Daily Stoic 10 years ago, almost exactly, and it was just supposed to be this email that would go out every day, like a little bit of stoke thought, and it goes up to a million people every day, which is insane. - That's mind blowing. Does it kind of can screw you up if you think it too hard about that? - Well, yeah, you can't. So, I don't think about it. Like, what I sit down and I try to write every week, five or six of the emails. Like sometimes more, like sometimes I'll write 15, and sometimes I'll write zero, but I just write, I write the emails constantly, and then somebody takes them from there and edits them, and then they come back to me I have to record them, 'cause there's also a podcast version of it, but like, if I'm thinking, is the idea about stakes, or we're just talking about, or the moment, like if I have to write tomorrow's Daily Stoic email, that's a problem. One, because I only have 24 hours to do it, but two, I'm thinking about doing the thing in an intentional way, as opposed to, oh, I was listening to this song, and it inspired this thing, where I was talking to my wife, and this thing happened, where I noticed this passage in a book, and that could, if I'm doing it in a low stakes way, and I'm doing it constantly, I create a surplus of material, if I'm having to do tomorrow's thing, then I run into problems. So, it is about creating, it's a weird thing to think that quantity is a way to get to quality, but quantity is usually a way to get to quality. - That makes sense. And it's also a weird thing, like if you ask somebody, hey, do you wanna do something? They're like, yeah, and when do you wanna do it? Right now, they're like, no. - Yeah. - Like, I'm not ready. You need like a day or two, like, I'll do it on Thursday, or whenever. - Or if you're like, hey, tell me that joke, and then, like, you know, or like, can you, tell me that, like, if you put pressure on it in the moment, it takes something out of it, and there's something about the sort of authenticity and the impromptuness of it, that I think is important. So, I'm kind of just always doing it, as opposed to like, performing for it, and also to go to the point about having kind of a barrier or a mausoleum, like, I have no idea what people think of the email every day. Like, the responses go to an address that I have never once checked. (laughing) And like, the person who does check that, like, they know to alert me if there's been like a technical issue of some kind, but like, I do not want feedback. - Right. - Like, because if you're writing a thing for a million people every day, if one percent of the people didn't like it, that is an insane amount of negative feedback. Like, an incomprehensible amount of-- - That's insane. - Like, Tim Ferris was telling me, he gave me a good way of thinking about it. He's like, "Okay, if you sell a million of something, or 10 million of something." And again, yeah, think about, like, is 100% of people gonna like it? Of course not. That would be delusional and entitled to think they were. So, let's say 10% of people who've heard you or checked you out or thought about you have a negative first impression or a final impression, how quickly that number becomes like a major, the size of a major USA. - Yeah. - You know? And like, a human being is not meant to withstand 100,000 people fucking hating them. And so you have to create like some very real boundaries that make you not comprehend what the people who don't like you think. - That's very smart. And it's something that's hard to do when you gradually become, like if you gradually just get bigger and bigger, you've been doing it a certain way so long, but now things have changed. And you gotta, like, we have a tour manager, of course. And, but I like to just say I to people and they're like, "Hey, no, no, no, no, we gotta get you over here." And bubble on, it's like a thing. And, you know, it's just, it's hard to be human when that many people are staring at you or looking at what you're reading or what you're doing. - Well, maybe you can relate to this. Like, I had to talk to the people I've been doing. They were like sending me like real-time, like daily updates on like ticket sales. Or something. And I was like, this is not good. This is not constructed. It's not a thing I can affect day to day. And it, like the best case scenario is it makes me feel like I'm amazing. Like everything's going really well. And then also it's like catching your thing. Like that's not a good, that's not conducive to being like a normal productive person. And then worst and much more practical, or likely scenario, is it just makes you feel awful because you're like, dude, you know, like a demoined, it's gonna be rough. (laughing) Or whatever. Like, you know, like numbers not good, as anyone ever heard of you in this sit, like, you know, you don't want. And like, I was just like, you gotta, I was like, this is information you should be using. And like maybe if there's, obviously there's a real problem and a continued problem, give me that information and let's constructively do something about it. But like, I don't wanna be, I don't wanna be told about this like on a regular basis. Like this is not conducive to me doing the actual day to dayness of what I have to do to say nothing of like my self esteem slash, say. - Yeah, I mean, and some people would say, oh, you gotta always watch the money and this and that. But I mean, you just have to find people you trust, honestly. And then check them every now and again. But besides that, I mean, it is very crazy to like get tickets every day. Like, I could probably ask our management for tickets, you know, sales or whatever numbers every day. But it's just like, it doesn't, yeah, like you say, it doesn't really do you any favors. It doesn't help you do your job better. It doesn't, it's like we either need to sell tickets or we don't, the exact amount doesn't matter to me. Are we doing what? All right, good. - And you're not gonna stop doing what you're doing because the tickets sold well. So like the positive information doesn't do anything for you either. Did you read that, or maybe some of the movie, the Springsteen book about Nebraska? - No. - Oh, it's incredible. When you go to the books, I'll give it to you. - Okay. - This guy, the guy that wrote the biography of Tom Petty, Warren Zayvon, I think there's a lot. Anyways, he wrote a book about the making of Nebraska. - Okay. - And then it's that movie with the guy from the bear in it. - Oh, red, okay. - There's a movie from nowhere. Yeah. And anyways, there's a scene in the book. Now, I don't know if it's in the movie 'cause I only watched two thirds of the movie on an airplane. But towards the end, so Springsteen puts out this album that is like, there's a scene with him in John Landau, or one of the record label guys, where he's like, I don't know why you would make this album. That doesn't make any sense to me that you would make this album, but clearly it was important to you. So he put out an album that economically and creatively was always a slight mismatch from the audience and whatever, but it was like important to him. - Yeah. - And in a way, it's like one of the most punk moves in the history of music, 'cause he's coming off his big album, he's a rising rock star and he just does like this dark, twisted, acoustic album in his bedroom, or whatever. John Landau says that one time, like three, four months after the album comes out, Springsteen calls him, and he just goes like, hey, is it doing okay? And he's like, yeah, it's doing okay. And he was like, cool. And they never talked about sales ever again. Like, I think he just wanted to know that it hadn't flopped. - Right. - You know? And then from there, it was like, it was good. You know, as long as it didn't like sell zero copies, he was good. And I've sort of gotten that way where it's like, I think on my first books, I was like, you know, you get week to week sales numbers, you know? Like, I don't actually know how my last book is done. Like, it's funny, I had to log in to get something and it like flashed a number and I was like, I don't even know. Like, it was like, it was like, without my consent, I got one number and I was like, okay, now I need to like, put that out of my mind and then not check. But like, so I, like, I know it's, I know I would have heard if there was like a problem. - Yeah. - But like, I just don't, I don't, that information shouldn't be shaping what I'm doing day to day, so I don't want it. And I think that's like a part of, it's, and it's really hard if you do anything online because it's like all numbers, right? Like, you know exactly how many of you, you know not only how many views, like a YouTube video did. It'll tell you when they stopped watching. Like, what did you say that made them quit? - Oh my gosh. - You know, or like, you know, it's bad for your brain to pull up Twitter and be like, this dashboard of information about, because all of a sudden you start to accommodate yourself to the algorithm. - Right. - And that's not, like I need to talk about this here And you talk about this sooner here. And then it's just like, yeah. - Do you have the audience or do you see audience have you? I think it's the question of for anyone that does anything. Yeah, because if you're doing everything just to keep your numbers, it's almost like a fake number because if you're yourself, all of a sudden it's all going to fall away. Yeah, it's wild. Yeah, they call it audience capture. So you see, and I think especially now, where things are a lot more direct consumer, right? Like if you have a Patreon or a substack or whatever and you're like, oh, when I talk about this, people unsubscribe, people cancel, now you're like, oh, when I say what I really think, it costs me money. Yeah, yeah, right. But when I say what I only have believe, I make money. And like humans are very bad at keeping that dissonance. Like suddenly, it's amazing how often the things we believe line up with what make us money. Because we're always changing one to me. Like this is staying the same, but we're changing. Yeah, that is wild. I mean, I grew up in the punk scene and money was never a thing you talk about. It was always just like, like I said, punk rock guilt. If you do really well, you feel guilty about it almost. So when we do really well, I make sure our crew gets paid good stuff. And it's just, I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily, but I wonder if that's a little bit of audience capture punk rock guilt. And feeling guilty for doing well. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's also it's like, hey, yeah, you're not doing anyone's, you're not doing anyone favors by staying small, you know, and like not being commercial, but at the same time, like I try to tell people it's like, because I'll hear from authors and they're like very concerned with like, you know, the economics of self publishing better than traditional publishing or like, how do I like, you know, and I just, I just go like, if you're writing a book to make money, like you already fucked up. Yeah. This is the wrong. Yeah. Like, there's so many better things to do. So like, it just know, like, yeah, if you got in a punk rock music because like that was your ticket to the big time. Yeah. Like, there's 50 easier tickets to the big time. I just wanted to get out of working at kitchen job, you know, which was not a good idea to be in punk rock, but I got lucky enough, I guess. Yeah. I wanted to, I want it, well, it's like, I wanted to be a writer. That's why I, so like, so if I'm getting to do that, that's success and everything else is extra. That being said, I still want to get paid as much as it is, like I'm not, I'm not doing anyone favors again by being underpaid. Yeah. I get paid less than market rates. Like, you don't want to be an idiot. And it is an interesting experience where you're like, oh, if I'd accepted the first offer, I would have gotten paid 60% less than what I ended up getting paid. You know, like, you realize like, oh, this is a business and everyone's interests is to pay you the little, the least and make the most themselves. And you have to like figure out how to navigate that. But like, yeah, your money was not your primary motivation to do else. You'd work on Wall Street. Yeah. Like, there's way better jobs. Like, there's better things, but it's so easy to measure. Yeah. And I think that becomes the way that people judge whether something's working or not. Yeah, that's true. That is true. I mean, I see bands all the time that probably make no money, but they get to see the world and they get to see the country and they get to meet new people all the time and they live a little bit on the edge, you know, and that's living. You know, that's like, that's definitely what I didn't know that that's what I was getting into when I started this band because we started in high school. So we weren't touring yet. We're just playing in the garage, playing some local shows, but it was just so much fun and it just took off so quickly because we had the work ethic, you know, we just like, what else are we going to do? Let's do this. How many, so will you start in 92? 92, yeah. Wow. So going into 10th grade, the summer going into 10th grade, we started the band and just played, you know, played ever, you know, all over the place, our senior year of high school. We started flying out to California. I think we went to Japan at one point, maybe there's a little later. But just, you know, we got signed to Tooth and Nail and put out our first album when we were seniors in high school. Wow. So I was like in the hallway with the CD going like, I felt actually kind of embarrassed because I didn't want, you know, there's that introvert thing. Like I felt like, if I tell people about this, I'm bragging. But really I should have been like, I got a CD. I got a CD. I remember, because I remember 10 years in running. So that's crazy to think that was 10 years later, yeah. But that was, that would have been 2002. So like that was 50. Wait, no, 25 years ago. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, that's like, like, and I remember thinking 10 years, you're doing for 10 years, that's a long time. Yeah. Because like when I, that was like half my life or whatever, more than half my life. But then, yeah, for you to do, wow. So, so 40 years is kind of coming up. That's kind of crazy. Well, I mean, 34 years is coming up this year. Yeah. So we got a little time. Come on, don't say 40 yet. No, I know, I'm saying like that you're, you're in your 30 years. Third decade going on your fourth decade of doing this. Things. It's wild. Yeah, new album coming later this year, probably into summer, something like that. And we'll do it all over again. Start doing it. Yeah. Start doing it. Cool. Well, let's, yeah, let's, let's wrap it up. All right, we did it. Thanks so much to my guest Ryan Holiday for being part of this, for taking the time, for sitting down and just shooting the shit. I appreciate that. We had a good time. Make sure you guys follow Ryan at Ryan Holiday, pretty much all of the, the socials. And then you can find his other thing, daily stoic at daily stoic. Tons of followers. He puts out an email every day. So be my guest. Follow along. All right. Ryan and if you guys haven't already done so, check out mxpx.com. We've got tour dates. We're on all the warp tours coming up. We have Milan, Italy on September 5th for punk at Deca Festival. We have a new song. The Good Days is out on the warp tour compilation CD. Make sure you go get one of those mxpx.com. That's the place. We got vinyl. We got merchandise. We got all the things you probably didn't know that you want, but you do want. All right. I'm going to leave it at that. Get out to Bob McNight and Christine Hall for helping produce this podcast. I appreciate you both. And you know what? We got these micro podcast stickers. And I think they're at mxpx.com. So when you order something there, we're going to start putting these stickers into your orders. All right. Thank you so much. Appreciate you. Until next time. Peace.