AT#751 - Travel to Rome, Italy

Gary Arndt's Unique Approach to Exploring Rome podcasts. Speaker 3 Amateur Traveler Episode 751 Today the amateur traveller talks about triumphal arches and basilicas, Holy steps and the Holy See, the Colosseum and the catacombs as we go to the Eternal City, Rome, Italy. Welcome to the amateur traveler. I'm your host, Chris Christensen. Let's talk about Rome. Speaker 4 I'd like to welcome back to the show Gary Art, who's come to talk to us about Rome, Italy. Gary, welcome back to the show. Speaker 5 Thank you for having me. Speaker 4 Now, Gary has been on the show so many times that I don't know that I can possibly go through every episode he has been on. We've done a lot of different things around the world with Gary. One of the most common, most, I don't want to say your common, Gary, one of the guests who has come back on the most number of times. You are thinking about doing tours just on Rome for a week? Speaker 5 Yeah, so kind of give the background since I've last been on the Amateur Traveler, I launched a new podcast. It's called Everything Everywhere Daily, right? Not a travel show per SE, but it deals with a lot of interesting stuff. And in the course of doing it, I've done several episodes, I have several more on things dealing with Rome, the Roman Empire, and I was thinking of ways I could do tours and how I could do it differently. And for most tours, if it's a group tour, you do 2 days in Rome, right? Then you go to Florence, then you go to Venice, that kind of stuff. So if you're with a bus tour or on a cruise ship, you're going to see the highlights of Rome, right? And nothing wrong with that. But there is a lot of stuff in Rome. And I do mean a lot of lot of stuff. I mean, we're talking 2500 years of history layered on top of each other with all sorts of stuff that's really interesting that most people don't even know is there. And what I really want to do, I'll probably do it for several different cities. But I wanted to start with Rome because I think it's so rich and there's so much that if you just go there on a normal tour, you're never going to see this stuff. Most of these things that we're going to talk about today, I've been to personally because I'm kind of a geek about those things. And when you visit, there's nobody there. Some of the very best parts of Rome get no tourists because everyone's going to the Colosseum, Sure. And the Forum, they're going to the Vatican, right? They're going to the Trevi Fountain. And that's Rome for everybody. Yet there's a whole, whole lot there. And if you're in the slightest bit intellectually curious what I'm assuming most of the people listening to this are, there's some amazing things to see. Navigating the Colosseum, Forum, and Palatine Hill Excellent. Well, what kind of itinerary are you going to recommend for us? Speaker 5 All right. So I'm assuming that you've either been to Rome before or you've seen those highlights that I've just mentioned. I'm not saying don't go to the Vatican. I'm not saying don't go to the Coliseum, but I'm saying you're probably going to do those things well first or right away. Speaker 4 Let's talk about some of those then. First you named four. I think it's a great 4 within there. There's a couple other things. So the Coliseum, for instance, very easy to find right downtown in Rome. If you're going to do the Coliseum, I'm going to recommend you do AVIP Tour and go underneath it and see some of the tunnels that you can see now, which I don't think you used to be able to see years ago. Yeah, most. Speaker 5 People don't do that, right? And that's going to actually play into some of the things I'm going to talk about. And the Coliseum is also right next to the forum or it's easy walking distance. And along the way, you're just going to walk past the Arch of Titus, right? Which I think you should definitely look at and actually look at the engravings on it, because one of the things you'll notice on the Arch of Titus is a great. Speaker 4 Big Menorah. Speaker 5 Yeah, because it was Titus that was responsible for the sack of Jerusalem, and that was one of the treasures that they brought back for his triumph in Rome, and that's still preserved there today. So that's a kind of an interesting bit of history where you start to see the classical Roman stuff and also Christianity and Judaism crossing paths and some sort of Venn diagram that's in the middle. You'll also see a couple other triumphal arches in this area, the Arch of Septimius Severus and the Arch of Constantine, which you should definitely look at. And in the in the forum itself, there's lots of ruins. You should look for something. I did an episode of this on my podcast, which was the Milius Auria, which was the Golden Mile, and this was the mile 0 marker right for Rome. So if you've heard the expression all roads lead to Rome, well technically all roads lead to that spot in Rome and that is how they measured everything was from literally that spot. And it's really nothing to see. I think it was a column supposedly wrapped in bronze, I think on a pedestal. And I think only, I mean, only the pedestal is left. But next to the Arch of Septimius Severus, you'll also find a spot which was called the navel of the City. And that was like truly Ground Zero. And that was sort of used before the Malea Oria was. And they're right next to each other. So I don't know why, but the Golden Mile marker was created by Augustus. So it's probably just more of a public thing that people could see. Regardless of what you do in the forum, get a guide because it's so packed with stuff that you're just walking around. It just looks like old stuff and you can't really get a flavor for what happened if you're just walking around. Speaker 4 Yeah, I did the tour last time I was there from our friends at Live Italy who've been sponsors of this show. But Gary and I actually both know some of the people from that company and that was the VIP tour. That's the one that let's you skip the line also at the Coliseum, which is that can be an hour long. So skipping the line there is always a good idea. And then you get to go higher than other people do and you get to go lower than other people do down and see some of the trapdoors and things in the Coliseum that let the wild beasts out and such. So, and you mentioned the Arch of Titus. So Titus being one of the Flavian dynasty and they're the ones who built the Colosseum, which is why that's the one that's nearest to there. And then I think that tour also then goes up to the Palatine Hill. So it goes up to the palaces above the forum, which are interesting to see as well. And, and not unusual for people to see. Although I, I think my family skipped the Palatine Hill when we went there the first time. I think a lot of people do. Speaker 5 Yeah, because they don't really know the history. Augustus had his villa there. Later emperors did. That's where Caligula was killed. They had a spot that overlooked the Circus Maximus. There's not a whole lot to see for the Circus Maximus nowadays, but there is a a field that you can clearly tell. It's like an elongated Oval still. Speaker 4 And that would be where they did the chariot races in ancient days. Speaker 5 Correct. Yeah, which was a far bigger deal than gladiatorial games. I think the gladiatorial games are sexy for cinema, but it was the Chariots racing that day in day out were the things that people followed and they had some fanatical teams. Speaker 3 The teams. Speaker 5 Were always just identified by colors. Speaker 4 And the two biggest colors that turned into rival political gangs during the time the Greens and the Blues. The Greens and the Blues during the time of Marius and Stella, wasn't it? Speaker 5 No, that was more, that was much later. Speaker 4 It was much later, OK, That's why I couldn't remember. Speaker 5 When they had the big riots, that was in Constantinople, OK, the Nita riots where they literally burned down the city and the teams went against each other. But supposedly the fire that occurred in Rome, the great Rome fire started at or near the Circus Maximus. So like I said, this is there's so much history, right? And I would even recommend, don't get a guidebook for Rome, get a history book, get like Mary Beard's SPQR if you don't have a knowledge of Rome because there truly is so much stuff. And it's not just like, oh, this is the Julius Caesar time. Rome really was around for several centuries after that where a lot of the stuff is built. And Speaking of Julius Caesar, they think, oh, well, I'm in the forum. This is where Caesar was assassinated. No, Caesar was actually assassinated at Pompey's Theater, which today I believe is in the basement of a restaurant. The Senate actually was meeting somewhere else at the time, not in the forum, and that's where it occurred. Speaker 4 Excellent. But you can see this, the old Senate building there, the rostrum and other things where the Senate did do things. Speaker 5 Yeah, the temple of Jupiter, I think you can see some of the remains and and some other things as well. And like I said, if you don't have someone telling you what's what, it's just going to look like a bunch of old stuff. Speaker 4 Yeah, that sounds about right. So then you mentioned three other places that people are going to see. Uncovering Hidden Wonders in Vatican City The Vatican you mentioned. Speaker 5 OK, so with with the Vatican, Yeah, one thing I recommend if if you want to book a tour is to go take a tour of the Vatican Garden. Not many people do. Speaker 2 This I have not done that. Speaker 5 Because at the end of the tour, it ends at the museum and you don't have to wait in line for the museum. Plus it includes your cost of entry. And quite frankly, if you really we want to explore the country by foot, most of the country of the Vatican is taken up by the gardens, right? You'll get to see other interesting things in the back like they have the Radio Vaticana tower and just other stuff that they have there, as well as seeing the museum. Speaker 4 Well, and it seems like the things that people do see when they go to the Vatican, as they rush to the Sistine Chapel, which is almost always crowded, especially in the middle of the day, and spectacular, you ought to see it. Although many people are rushing through all of the art on the way there, like the map room and things that I think are worth seeing, worth stopping and looking at. And then they see Saint Peter's, they see Michelangelo's Pieta, and then they leave and go see something else. Speaker 5 Yeah, and bit of a tip, most of the tour buses that show up are going to show up between like 8 and 10 AM And I remember one day I was there, I was in line really long line, like went around the whole country. And by the time I got in, I had a camera bag. So I had to check my my bag in a locker. I get done with the Vatican Museum and I have to go back to the entrance to get my bag everything. And this was about noon. The lines were gone because the line was just there in the morning because of all the buses. So if you visit the Vatican a little later in the day, I think you're going to have a much better experience, especially for something like the Sistine Chapel, if you're one of the last people to go through, than one of the 1st. And also the Saint Peter's Basilica itself is is tends to be a bit more empty in the afternoon. But there are two things I was going to mention. One is you can go all the way up to the very top of the Dome of Saint Peter's. And there is, in fact, even a gift shop and a cafe on the roof of the Vatican of the Saint Peter's. Get out. Yeah. Speaker 4 I did not know. Speaker 5 That so in the in the Dome, there's like an inner Dome and an outer Dome and you walk in between it and it takes you all the way up to the observation deck at the very top. Most people don't do it. It's an awkward walk because the walls are tilted because it's a Dome, but you can do it. And if you want a fantastic view and photo of Saint Peter's Square, that's probably going to be one of your best places to do it. The other thing, and this is something very few people get to do, so the Vatican was built where it was because that's where the tomb of Saint Peter was, right? So when the Emperor Constantine built a basilica, this is called Old Saint Peter's, right on that spot. And then in the Renaissance was falling apart, so they built New Saint Peter's, which is the building that's there today. Underneath Saint Peter's is an area called the Grotto and that's where a lot of popes are buried. John Paul the second, for example, is buried there. That's pretty easy to get into. And that level is actually the floor level of old Saint Peter's. OK. Below that is the area called the Scavi and there is an office of the Scavi. And that Scavi was an excavates Italian for excavation which was done during and after World War 2, because Pope Pius the 10th wanted to be buried as close as possible to where Peter was. So they conducted this excavation and they found the Roman cemetery which was there. And it wasn't a cemetery as in graves in the ground. It was like actual buildings with walls and stuff. And they found the area with Petrus on it. And a lot of the very early bishops of Rome were also interred around him. And you can visit this, but they only do it in very small groups and you have to reserve it beforehand. And I think this is one of the coolest things in Rome. And it is something you can't take pictures, like I said, has to be in a small group. And it's right below the altar because that's why it was put where it is. And the altar of New Saint Peter's is exactly where the altar of Old Saint Peter's was. So that would be the thing if you really want to see something different in the Vatican is what you do. From Domus Aurea to Rome's Major Basilicas The other buried thing that a lot of people don't get to see is Nero's palace, the Domus Oria. Nero built the was probably the biggest building in all of antiquity, right? It was enormous. It has supposedly had a colonnade that was like a mile long. It had a artificial lake. And after he died, they basically tore most of it down and they built the Flavian Amphitheater, AKA the Coliseum where that artificial lake was for example. And the name Coliseum, it comes from the fact that there was a colossus built in that spot which was a like 100 foot tall statue of Nero. Speaker 4 Oh, I didn't remember. That's who. I knew it was a statue, but I didn't remember it was Nero. OK. Speaker 5 Well, it was Nero, and then when Nero died, they changed the head. Speaker 4 Took up his head off and changed the head and. Speaker 5 They changed into the sun God or whatever, but it was the Colossus, and that's where Colosseum comes from. From the Colossus. They rediscovered the Domus Auria during the Renaissance. It it had been buried, or at least one wing of it, and the Renaissance painters would be dropped down there by rope because it was all the paintings were still preserved. And it's kind of like Pompeii to that extent, where all these fantastic paintings were preserved because it was buried. And you can go there. There are tickets available. You don't have to get dropped down the rope anymore. But he had these rooms that you had the stars painted on the ceiling, and they had a rotating ceiling. And there'd be slaves hired to make it rotate by ropes because it was on a pulley system. Really elaborate for the time. And yeah, again, hardly anyone even knows about it, let alone visits. Speaker 4 Now he built this after the fire as I recall. Speaker 5 Correct, and the reason why the legends existed as to that Nero started the fire right was because he basically was extremely opportunistic after the fire in clearing a ton of land to build this palace right? The other place I'd recommend this gets a few more visitors is Saint Paul's Outside the Wall. Speaker 3 OK. Speaker 5 So I talked about the original Saint Peter's Basilica. Basilica has two meetings. One, it is sort of any church that has significance that the Catholic Church just says, well, this is an important church either architecturally, historically, whatever, and it's called a basilica. That's just a title granted to it. However, a basilica was also a particular architectural style that existed in the very early church, which was adopted from Roman buildings. And this style is what the old Saint Peter's used to be and Saint Paul's is what it is. Saint Paul's was heavily renovated in the 19th century. So if you go there today, it's going to look like a brand new church almost. The colors are bright, you've got gold gilded everything, and it looks really nice. But the layout of sort of like 3 aisles and though the shape of everything, that's all the original building. And it's the same thing you'll see at the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, actually, that same style, because the churches both date back to Roman imperial times. And the reason why it's there is because just as Saint Peter's was the tomb of Saint Peter, so too was this the spot supposedly of Saint Paul where he died. And they believe that the, I believe it's a skull of Saint Paul is still under the altar in a box or something. But it's a very good way to see that architectural style which you otherwise can't really see. And I should add that there are, you know, there's like 1000 some basilicas in the world, and they're all basilica minor. OK, There are 4 basilicas called Basilica Major. All four of those are in Rome, and it's Saint Peter's, Saint Paul's, Saint Mary's Major, and St. John's Lateran. And all four of those are probably worth it. Again, most people don't bother with anything other than Saint Peter's. Augustus's Tomb, Ancient Sewers, and Parish Art Well, and you mentioned that it's based on a Roman style. There's still one of the ancient Roman basilicas in the forum which isn't a church at all. It would be a judicial building, as I recall. Speaker 5 Yes, the original basilica comes from the style of building, which was actually not a religious It wasn't the design of the temples, it was just the design of like public civic buildings, right? That's where they took it from. The other thing is, is one that I've not been to because it just opened up. The tomb of Augustus, right? This was a huge piece of the Roman landscape for a very long time, and it fell into disrepair. And the last time I was in Rome, there was still fencing around it. You couldn't go visit. But now it's been reopened. And I think that is not just Augustus's tomb, but many of the very early emperors in Rome were in tomb there because everyone wanted to follow in the footsteps of Augustus. So they wanted to get put in the tomb with Augustus, so they would put their ashes in there. Speaker 4 Now it's a round building, but I don't remember where it's located. Speaker 5 Oh man, I couldn't even tell you off the top of my head. OK, the exact location about super easy to find on a map and open now. So you even if you took a tour or something, that's a good chance you're probably go or you got on a hop on hop off bus. There's a good chance that you're going to be able to get within walking distance. Speaker 4 OK, it's over by the Vatican. We would jumped around here a little bit. We've been in two spots, the Coliseum, the Forum, the Palatine Hiller in one spot. Vatican City is further to the West, across the river, River Tiber and the Castle. Saint Angelo is across the river from there, and up a little ways is the Mausoleum of Augustus, not far from the Pantheon either. Speaker 5 That was going to be my next thing. Castle Saint Angelo was originally not the Castle Saint Angelo. It was Hadrian's Tomb and it later got converted to a castle. Speaker 4 That you can visit. Speaker 5 As well, And that even though it doesn't look it from the outside, actually has Roman origins. Yeah, by the time Hadrian was around, he's like, yeah, I want my own tomb. So. And then we're going to be getting back to Hadrian in a bit. We talk about stuff that's immediately outside of Rome that you can easily just day trip to the other, probably the oldest thing in Rome that you can go see. And probably, I don't know how you verify it, The oldest continually used thing in the world that it's still used for its original intent is the Qualoca Maxima, which is the Roman sewer. It was built not during the Republican period, but during the Kingdom of Rome. Speaker 4 Oh wow, so. Speaker 5 It's really old and they were super proud of their sewers. Like many Roman writers centuries later bragged about their sewers and how awesome their sewers were. They did an upkeep on it I think during the reign of Augustus. They cleaned it out but it's still there and it is still functioning as a sewer today. I have looked to find if it's possible to get a tour of it because I know that there are other cities like Paris where you can get tours of the sewer. But there are there is a spot and I forget the name of the bridge where you can actually see where the Cloaca Maxima empties out into the Tiber. And that might be as good as it gets, but it actually goes under the forum. And like I said, it's it's still draining water. Speaker 4 The Ponte Roto. The Ponte Roto Bridge near the Ponte Palatino. Speaker 5 OK. Speaker 4 Just so you know. Speaker 5 And Speaking of Augustus, the other thing we should probably mention is the Arapakus, which is the altar to peace, the altar to Augustine peace actually. And it is really well done as a piece of art. It's not an altar like you might think of it. It's actually kind of a small building with really elaborate engravings around. And, and it's small enough that it's totally enclosed now by a modern building, but it's very high quality in terms of how well it has been preserved and small enough that it doesn't grab a lot of people's attention. And like I said, you can probably map all this stuff out because even the times I've been to Rome, I have yet to ever go on the subway in Rome, just to give you an idea. I just always walk everywhere because there's always something you can see, even with a few blocks. And then just as a general thing to look for everywhere in Rome, the College of Cardinals was originally established. They were the priests and deacons of the various Paris churches in Rome. And as it expanded and they started getting bishops from other places, the tradition to this day is that each member of the College of Cardinals is assigned a church in Rome. So if you look outside of any Roman church, when you walk by, you will see a coat of arms. And that coat of arms is going to be different for every church. And it corresponds to the cardinal from wherever they may be in the world, who is the mentor or the overseer or the benefactor for that church. And what they've done in the past is they would sometimes assign Cardinals from rich countries to the poorer churches so they could help raise money for them. And in a lot of these churches, you can just walk in and you'll see beautiful art in what is basically a neighborhood parish church. And that's something at least to to keep your eye out for us to look for those coats of arms that are above all the churches. Discovering Rome's Pantheon and Secret Keyhole View Another church that is often overlooked is the Basilica of Saint Mary of the Angels and the Martyrs. This is very close to the train station, and the exterior of it is basically a Roman ruin. It was the bath of Diocletian, and it was converted into a church. And inside it's absolutely beautiful. It's at the Republic of Plaza, so that's a big roundabout. Again, really close to the train station, super easy walking distance. This is overlooked by a lot of people. So this is kind of A2 Fer. You get the Renaissance church aspect of it with all the artwork that's very neat. Plus you get the Baths of Diocletian for the the Roman stuff, kind of. I wouldn't say it's quite like the Pantheon, but that also was kind of a part Roman, part church. The reason why it was preserved is because it was turned into a church. Speaker 4 Right and and beautiful building too. It's more commonly visited and worth a visit. Speaker 5 Inside, it's beautiful. I think a lot of looking from the outside would have no idea what's inside of it. True, the word basilica is outside, and I don't know these. If you didn't know what you were looking at, you might not know. I remember walking past it and I had my camera. I was just walking around. So I went inside and I was like, wow, this is great. And they had some fantastic sculptures and paintings. And there's this very neat thing in the floor that's like a Meridian. And it's kind of like a sundial that's used, commissioned by one of the early popes. And that building actually was the national church for the Kingdom of Italy from late 19th to early 20th century, just before the rise of Mussolini. Speaker 4 I did not know that well. And you say a sundial because there is a an Oculus, a sun roof as it were. There's a hole in the roof at the top. And so you can do a sundial indoors. Speaker 5 And I think they even use that as one of the filming locations for one of the Dan Brown movies. Speaker 4 Oh yeah, they did. It's. Speaker 5 The thing in the floor, except they completely every every Dan Brown. It's horrible. Speaker 4 I I actually liked angels and demons which is that one but OK. Speaker 5 There's so much historically wrong. Speaker 4 Oh yeah, no, it's. Speaker 5 And I don't even mean like the conspiracy stuff that I can accept for suspense of disbelief, but a couple other cool things that are passed up. The sacred stairs or the holy stairs. These are close to the Basilica of St. John's Lateran. And St. John's Lateran, by the way, is another very old church, used to be the resident of the Pope's. And St. John's Lateran is the cathedral for the city of Rome, not Saint Peter's. Speaker 4 What piece is that in a completely different country so. Speaker 5 Well, no, it's not just that, but even before the creation of Vatican City, Yep, it's a basilica. It's not the cathedral. The cathedral is Saint John's. It's more of a nomenclature thing, but. Speaker 4 Well, and the other thing, and we've talked about on this show before, but something doesn't become a cathedral unless it has the seat of the Bishop. Yeah, it's just. Speaker 5 The official Church of the Bishop for whatever diocese, and so that that is it, that's the Pope's church, is St. John's Lateran, not Saint Peter's. Speaker 4 Now that is a much newer church in style. Speaker 5 Not no, actually it's been redone a lot. Got it. So go in. It's going to look new. But actually I believe the core of that church is older than the current Saint Peter's because they tore down all of old Saint Peter's to build the current 1, whereas St. John's has just been updated over time. Kind of like Saint Paul's in that you go in and it looks new, whereas it actually is pretty old. Speaker 4 OK, the facade is from 1735 is what I'm reading and it was obviously a newer facade, but the inside is really different looking. Speaker 5 I've had a couple of guides tell me what this is, that Americans tend to be more fussy about whether something was original in European. Speaker 4 Right. Well, because original is is a matter of degrees anyway. Speaker 5 Well, yeah, because you have this old building and it needs to be fixed and updated, and so there's going to be new things added, but it's still the original building. And for Americans, like all is that is the actual thing put there at that time. But the next two or not too far from there are the Scala Sancta, which is the holy steps. The Scala Sancta are the steps which were supposedly taken from Pilot's palace in Jerusalem, and they were taken back in the Crusades and basically reconstructed in Rome. So it's this building with a set of stairs up the middle, and the stairs go nowhere. It's just a wall and I think an altar at the top and that's it. And a lot of people will go up in their knees or whatever, but supposedly they are the same stairs that Jesus would have walked up. Because there's actually very little in Jerusalem that dates back actually to the time of Christ, because it was a much smaller city at the time. And the city today is really more of an Ottoman city. Speaker 4 Right. Well, and that and the Flavians did a number on it so. Speaker 5 Well, yeah, not a whole lot left. The other thing I'll I'll mention, and people might have seen photos of this, but they may not have done it themselves, the keyhole photo. So if you go to the headquarters of the Knights of Saint John Hospitaler, also known as the Knights of Malta, and if you go up to their main wooden door, you'll see a gigantic keyhole. And if you look through that keyhole by chance, it is perfectly aligned with an archway in their garden and the Dome of Saint Peter's Basilica. And that is a very famous photo. You can say it's a very difficult photo to take because you're shooting through a keyhole and getting everything in focus and at the right exposure level is difficult because most of it's black cuz keyhole. But it can be done. Hopefully you don't go there when a bus group shows up cuz otherwise you're gonna be waiting a long time. I've been there a couple times. One time I had no problem, I was there by myself and the other time there was a bus group and I just sat and waited because just wasn't worth it. Speaker 4 Well, an interesting group historically to the Knights. Who ran hospitals in the Holy Land, among other things. Speaker 5 Yeah, and they actually the Knights of Malta have diplomatic relations with many countries and the headquarters in Rome, some people will quasi sort of consider it to be an independent country, but it's not quite. It doesn't have the same official status as, say, the Vatican does, even though people have. Imagine if the holy people had diplomatic relations with the Holy See. And there's a distinction between the Holy See and Vatican City. The Knights of Malta are like the Holy See in that it's an organization, but the land it's on doesn't necessarily have sovereignty the way Vatican City does. But you can say you went there and that's kind of an interesting thing. Speaker 4 Now, so far, everything we've talked about, you mentioned walking. I think it's a mile from the Coliseum to Vatican City, and the train station is another 2000 feet in One Direction. We've really been in the core of the old city. We haven't gone very far at all. Speaker 5 Well, Saint Paul's is something you'd probably have to take a taxi to get to. OK, that is, as the name would suggest, outside the wall. I mean, it's in modern Rome, but there are buses that go there, so you can do public transportation. Or I took a taxi when I went. And I should also just go back to Saint Paul's. There's portraits of every Pope inside Saint Paul's. That's one of the the features of it. And I remember, remember, I think it was with Pope Benedict or something, or maybe it was Pope Francis, there was only one spot left because they had gone all the way around the building. So I don't know where they, they, they put the last portrait in or where they moved it to. Exploring Ostia Antica and Tivoli's Villas So you're in Rome, but there are a couple of great places outside of Rome. They're within a 45 minute driving distance or a local train or a bus that you can get to that again, most people don't ever bother to see the stuff outside of Rome because there's, there's so much stuff inside of Rome. And the 1st I'll mentioned as a place I know you've been to, which is Ostia Antica. Ostia was the port city of Rome because Rome is not on the sea. So Ostia is where the Tiber meets the sea. And oddly enough, today, I think it's like 2 kilometers from the coast because there's been so much silting of the river over the last 2000 years that Ostia is actually no longer on the sea. But the ruins of Ostia are really good. I would say that they're maybe not quite on a par with Pompeii because you didn't have the artwork that was preserved and things like that, right? But all of the buildings in the market, they still have all of the mosaics in the floor, the tiles for the fish vendor in the picture of a fish and all this stuff. The toilets are still there. Speaker 4 The way too communal for me, the toilets, but that's a different. Speaker 5 Right. But this amazing Roman ruin, which is arguably better than anything in Rome itself in terms of how much of it is preserved, right? It's all there. And it's, again, there were very few people when I was there. I don't know what it was like when you were there, but it was basically. Speaker 4 Nothing. No, I, I went there with the a guide again, because it is one of those sites that you could walk through and not know what you're looking at. I don't remember there was a context travel guide or something I found on Viator, but it was somebody who knew archaeology and such. But yeah, I, I don't even remember any bus groups or any groups of any particular size. No lovely stroll in the countryside. And I was in Rome in August, which is not what I would recommend when to go to Rome. But I was there at the end of a press trip. And it was nice to get out of the city to to some place that had a little more, a little more breeze, a little more outdoor destination. Speaker 5 I took a train there. Yep. So it's very easy to take an above ground train from Rome to Austria. Highly recommended, especially if you wanted to go see something like a Pompeii but it's too far away and you didn't have the time. Aussie is a great place to do it and it's really not that far. Speaker 4 Yeah, I quite enjoyed it. Speaker 5 Yeah, and as always, get a guide if possible, just because it makes the whole thing easier going in the other direction. So that's towards the sea up in the hills just outside of Rome, and you can see the hills from within Rome quite easily. Is the town of Tivoli and there are two things up there that are both World Heritage sites well worth seeing. One is the Villa de Este. The Villa de Este is a Renaissance era villa created by a cardinal who desperately wanted to be Pope, and he spent a ton of money on this garden and created one of the most elaborate water gardens in the world. In addition to just being a garden, it just has tons of fountains, running water, waterfalls, sculpture that's all over the here, and it's just amazing. And he built it to basically impress the other Cardinals in an attempt to try to become Pope, and it didn't work. But today you can enjoy it. And I should say this actually does get of the things outside of Rome, this probably gets the most people because there are some bus tours that will visit the villa dast, but still nothing compared to what you're going to get within the city of Rome itself. And the other one also in Tivoli, just outside of town is Hadrian's villa. And wow, this is amazing. So he basically built a palace outside of Rome. So he's up in the hills where it's a little cooler in the summer. And again, it's this fantastic Roman ruin, so much of it still standing. The best part is there's this one area around, and I wouldn't call it a swimming pool, but it's more like a reflecting pool. But they still have a lot of the original sculptures sitting around the pool. If you've ever seen the movie Spartacus, there was a scene where it takes place around a pool, and it looks very similar to that. There's this amazing dining room that he had that was built on an island and you can still see that the roofs are are off a lot of this stuff and it's a lot of walls. But there was truly no one there when I visited that no one cared at all about this. And you can easily visit both the Villa de Este and Hadrian's Villa on the same trip. You can go to 1:00 in the afternoon, one in the morning, no problem. The other thing I would highly recommend, and there's several of these you can visit, but I would go to at least one of them, is to go to one of the catacombs which dot the entire city of Rome. Most of the catacombs are Christian catacombs, right? So this is where very early Saints were laid. This is where the very early Christian community would meet. They would often have church services on graves of respected people in the church. There are also, however, some Jewish catacombs, and I actually got to visit a Jewish catacomb on one of my trips there. They don't do tours very often, but they just happened to be doing it this one time. And they asked me, it's like, would you want to go see this? I'm like, well, sure. You can see a lot of Jewish iconography. The Star of David actually is a rather modern Jewish symbol. It was usually the menorah which was used and. Speaker 4 Rome. Speaker 5 Had the largest Jewish community for several centuries after the fall of Jerusalem. After the Jewish diaspora, Rome is the largest Jewish city in the world for quite a while. And that's reflected in the size of some of the catacombs and their very existence. And there's even more stuff that I didn't even talk about if you really wanted to get into the nitty gritty. There are some, and some of them are not quite as well preserved, but there are some triumphal gates that are outside of Rome that today are just sort of a road that's going through like the the walls of Rome. Part of the walls are still there in some places, not in all places. There is the pyramid of Cestius. It is a pyramid in Rome. Now we were huge and it's rather steep and it was basically built by this one Roman who wanted to be remembered. So he built this really kick ass tomb for himself and his wife. And it's still there and you can still see it and it's basically a pyramid. If you're ever driving around Rome and you see a pyramid, this is it. Because they're just any other pyramids. Speaker 4 And if you're taking the train to Ostia, it's like right across from the train station where I picked the train up is the reason that I've seen it. Speaker 5 I think however, I, I remember listening to another podcast about this, they only do, it's only open a few days a week. So it's not a seven day a week type thing. So you might want to check the schedules if you want to check it out. I've not actually, I've been past it a few times, but I've never actually gone inside and inside is not that special. Trajan's Column, Prison, and Peter's Obelisk It's pretty plain, but it's again just another one of these interesting things that's all over Trajan's column. Is fantastic and that's something too where even if you can take out your phone and pull up some information on it while you're looking at it because it's basically a spiraled story pictograph that goes around it that tells about all the accomplishments of Trajan. If you at least have that as a guide, you can go look at the oh, that's where he conquered those people. That's where they did this, as opposed to just looking at old stuff. And then the member time prison is located very close to the Forum, very close to Trations column in that area, but it's up near the street from it. It's not very big. The Romans didn't really have prisons. They had places where they would hold people before trial, but putting people in jail was not a regular punishment for the Romans. They would just kill you or lop off a limb or fine you or whatever, but they didn't have the resource to throw into guards and prisons and everything. So this is where Peter and Paul were both held. And I think it was a church or maybe a church still technically, where they occasionally hold services there. There's an altar that's definitely there. On the altar, there's an upside down cross. Speaker 4 OK, Peter. Speaker 5 Exactly. So it's something you're not normally going to see in most churches, but specifically for this one, because Peter was supposedly crucified upside down, they have an upside down cross in recognition of. Speaker 4 Peter, right. Peter basically is supposed to have said, and this is not biblical obviously because it takes place after that time period, but in early church histories that he is supposed to have said I'm not worthy to be crucified like like Jesus and so crucify me upside down, which is not how it was normally done. Speaker 5 And as another interesting tidbit, you'll notice that in the very middle of Saint Peter's Square, there's an obelisk, which is an odd thing to the center of a Christian thing. Well, the reason why that's there is because that was taken from Egypt by the Romans and that was supposedly so there was another circus in the area of the Vatican around that area where that was where Peter was supposedly executed. And that obelisk was there. So supposedly it was witness or in the vicinity where Peter died and which is why it was then placed in the middle of Saint Peter's Square. Speaker 4 OK. I did not know that it didn't have a cross on it originally, obviously. Speaker 5 No, they, they put that on later, but a lot of people think it's kind of weird that there's an Egyptian obelisk in the middle of Vatican City, but that's the it's because it was originally taken by the Romans and it happened to be in this place and they put it front and center in the middle of the Plaza then. Speaker 4 Now we've talked about a lot of the history, some of the UNESCO World Heritage sites, obviously since both, well, Gary is a collector, I, I also like to get to them, but I'm, I'm sure 1000 behind you in terms of how many I've been to. Essential Advice for Visiting the Eternal City But while you're in Rome, are there other things that you would recommend that people do that are more places to eat, places to hang out, throw your coin in the Trevi Fountain, Are those sort of things? Speaker 5 If you want to throw your money away in the Trevi Fountain, go for it. So the restaurant where Cesar was killed, not that he was killed at the restaurant, Godfather style. It's right dot pencronzio. It's it's just a regular Italian restaurant. And they just so happen to have lucked out and built it on top of Pompey's theater. And if you eat there, the owners will let you down in the basement where you can actually see the place where Cesar was killed. I have nothing to say about the food quality there. I'm I'm sure it's fine. It seems to have good reviews on TripAdvisor, but it's more of the fact that it's historically interesting. Speaker 4 Excellent. Anything and and you don't need to order the Caesar salad. That's not a Roman thing. Anything else that people ought to do, see, or eat while they're in Rome? Speaker 5 Take your time when going through Saint Peter's Basilica in the museum, like just use a whole day for that because it's just full of art and history and significance everywhere. There's just so much of it and it's so easy to walk by this stuff and not know what it is, whether it's there's this inside Saint Peter's, there's a bronze statue of Saint Peter and the toe is. Speaker 4 Rubbed off, it's eroded away. Speaker 5 Yeah, and that's because people rub it, supposedly. I think you'll come back to Rome or something if you rub it and. Speaker 4 I thought you'd have luck if you did that versus if you throw a coin in the fountain, you'll have you'll come back. But. Speaker 5 Or you could rub the fountain and throw a coin. Speaker 4 In Peter. Speaker 5 So there's like 4 major statues at the corners. I think Peter was one. I think St. Longinus was one. Longinus was supposedly the Roman soldier that stuck the spear in the sight of Christ and there's also a legend that God as punishment made him immortal and he was forced to walk the earth and fight in all the wars as punishment and and never get to die until Christ returns. Speaker 4 And what movie was that made into? Speaker 5 A couple. Speaker 4 I was going to say, there's got to be a movie version of that. Speaker 5 No, there is. There's one called Longinus that basically tells the story of the immortal guy. But there's a lot of those things that are, like I said, they're just everywhere. And we've been talking about like the Spanish Steps, which quite frankly, it's only called the Spanish Steps in English. It's a great photo. You'll see a lot of pictures where people are just sitting on it, eating or drinking, which I think is technically illegal now because they don't want people. We haven't talked about the Pantheon, which is, again, perhaps the best preserved Roman building in the world, just because it was turned into a church, still has, I think it's the largest concrete, unsupported concrete Dome in the world. And it's close to 2000 years old. One of the great things is on the front of the building, in big letters you'll see the word Agrippa. He was the number two guy to Augustus. And had he not died earlier, he may have become an emperor and taken over from Augustus, but he didn't. Also, if you look around, if there's a road going around the Pantheon and it's kind of raised up and in sort of a micro level, you can see you always dig to find ruins and cities. And it's always like, well, how did stuff get that far below the surface? And because the Pantheon hasn't moved everything around, it's been built up. And you can actually see that it's actually one to two meters below the rest of the street level on either side of it, but not in the front actually where the Plaza is around it. Speaker 4 Interesting as we start to think about wrapping this up. Carrie, you're a photographer. Your favorite photo spots in Rome? Speaker 5 OK, one would definitely be the keyhole. Speaker 4 The keyhole. I figured that I searched for the keyhole and I found everything-everywhere.com, which is Gary's site. So I knew that was going to be 1. OK. Speaker 5 So there's this one St. via Piccolo Mini. It is up on a hill, and the hill is such that it is on the same level as the Dome of Saint Peter's. And basically you, if you're on the middle of the street, there's a little overlook, so you're way above the rooftops and it's just the Dome. And this is probably one of the best spots to take a photo of the Dome of Saint Peter's itself, But it's kind of out of your way. And most of the people that are going to be there are going to be there just for that photo. And if you're inside Saint Peter's Basilica, you're going to have, especially in the late afternoon, most probably, depending on the time of year you're there and the weather and everything else, you're going to see beams of light coming through the windows up in the basilica that can give you some really great effects. And I would definitely be looking for that. And but you're only going to see that either earlier in the morning or later in the afternoon because middle of the day, the lights going to be going straight down, especially if you happen to be there in the summer. Speaker 4 OK, excellent. One thing that makes you laugh and say only in Rome I. Speaker 5 Don't know if it's only in Rome, but it's one of the few cities left in the world that still has pickpockets. Pickpocketing, most people don't realize, is a skill. It's like an actual talent that's passed on from generation to generation, and for the most part it's died out. Yet one of the pickpocketing capitals are probably Rome and Barcelona. It's a place where you really have to be aware of your possessions and your wallet and things like that, and that's one of the reasons I've never taken the subway in Rome. I just walk everywhere and you don't have to worry about it so much. The other thing I this is something I just do traveling everywhere now and I've, in fact, I do it every day, no matter where I am, is always put my wallet in my front pocket, right? Yeah, that's just a habit that I've gotten into. Speaker 4 I was in Rome the first time, way back in around the year 2000, probably about 1998 or something like that, and there were 10 people in the group that I was with. We were going to a friend's birthday party who decided he wanted to celebrate it in Italy, and so some of us went to Rome before then. And of the 10, two were pickpocketed in Rome. So we had about 20% pickpocket rate. 1 was pickpocketed on the subway and basically it was pickpocketed. It was while it was in his back pocket. The doors are closing the subway, someone grabs his wallet and jumps off the train. And people noticed right away. He didn't notice what was going on. And then the other one was pickpocketed at the Coliseum. And the person basically was begging for money and said, give me money, give me money and some kid. And he said no. And they said, well, how about for this? And held up his wallet. So he he bought back his wallet. So that was a less than terrible experience there. But yeah, definitely watch your stuff. Not if you're going to use a money belt or something like that. Rome would be a good place to do it. I was going to say Napoli also. It would be another place that I would want to potentially have my stuff in a money belt or something like that. Gary, if you had to summarize Rome in just three words, what 3 words would you use? Speaker 5 Old. Really old, really really old. Maybe also toss in religious Catholic. Future Travel: Deep Dive Tours and Podcast Wrap-up But yeah, a lot of cities in the world have history, obviously, but nothing quite matches Rome just because of not only the history that the city had, but how much of it is still there. That there's a lot of cities that had a lot of history, but it just didn't survive to the modern era. But in Rome you can still see so much of it. Speaker 4 Excellent. And Gary, if people wanted to learn more about the tours you're going to do and and get on a waiting list for whenever the dates get set, where should they go? Speaker 5 Obviously for COVID reasons, can't really announce any dates or anything yet, but the goal is to have basically super geeky deep dive tours. One city, you go to your hotel room once and that's it. We're not going to move around. And a lot of the stuff we've just talked about in the show is what we're going to be covering. Going to see these little things that are just really cool and interesting. Just check out my podcast Everything Everywhere Daily. Yeah, it's a Daily Show. Speaker 4 I'm a listener. Speaker 5 Yeah, I'll be talking about it on the show every so often, especially as we get closer to a point where we can actually start thinking of traveling again. And I'm also thinking of doing it for a couple other cities as well. I've identified Istanbul and Jerusalem as two cities where I think that you could do a similar super deep dive. Oh yeah. And see a lot of the things they can't see on a two or three day stay. Speaker 4 Well, and you were saying that Rome is is unusual in terms of how much history is left. And those are the two cities I thought of as a counterexample of cities that have just so much history there that it's just layer on layer and they're fascinating places. And then obviously Istanbul and Jerusalem being much more of a, a mixture of cultures too. So I would easily see that being an interesting place to spend a week or so. Excellent. Our guest again has been Gary Art from everything-everywhere.com and the Everything Everywhere podcast. Wherever fine podcasts are given away freely. Gary, thanks for coming on Amateur Traveller and sharing with us your love for Rome. Speaker 5 Thank you for having me. Community News and Amateur Traveler Podcast Outro In news of the community, first, thanks to those who support the show through Patreon, patreon.com/amateur Traveler for learning more about how to do that. Last week's show, I gave you an update on my travels and apparently I mispronounced Tiburon as saying Tiburon because there's AU in there that I'm not supposed to pronounce. But I have gone there and gone back and gone to Angel Island and written that all up on the blog. So if you're interested in Tiburon near San Francisco or Angel Island, you can see that on the amateur traveller.com blog or on California Travel media.com. Also coming up on there will be a trip down to Paso Robles, the wine country down there that I'll be going to this weekend. But for now, I've got trips to prepare for and things to do. So we're going to wrap up of this show. If you have any questions, send an e-mail to host at amateurtraveller.com or better yet, leave a comment on this episode at amateurtraveller.com. And thanks so much for listening We. Speaker 6 Got to see one more