Ashlee Harrison: From Mega Gallery Powerhouse to Intimate Salon Curator

What's up everybody I'm Fernando Mastrangelo welcome back to design discord today. I'm here with Ashley Harrison the extraordinaire She's done everything from design PR to Worked with design Miami worked with Carpenter's workshop for over 10 years and now is doing her own project at 38 East in the Upper East side We get into a bunch of cool subjects Including taking Carpenter's workshop and expanding their gallery from New York to Los Angeles to San Francisco and Aspen To working with designers like the Campana brothers Nacho Cabanel studio drift We talked about the fair system and of course we get into with 30 80s It's all about this salon that she where she gets to really spread her wings as a curator and cultural Taste maker Ashley, thanks for being on the pod. Welcome Where are we in the lifecycle of collectible design as you see it? Today, that's a really good question. I feel that Over the past 10 years we've seen the major market shift where people are becoming more interested not just in what's on their walls but the the objects and the works that they live with them and I think we're we're coming into a mature period where people are really embracing it as another forum of Or genre you could say a fine art of collectible and So it's a pretty yeah, I think good place to be is it right so you feel like it's a robust time for collectible design or or how would you? Yeah to find it. I mean robust. I think that it's been consistent. I think there's always going to be a need for a chair or a table or An object right and people have these emotional connections to the objects which is when they learn the stories and they're learning how it's made and how the piece kind of sits within It's moment in history and there I think there's much more attention being given to that now than than ever and I think that the pandemic kind of propelled that and Was it was a really strong moment that now we've kind of continued to build upon and put it forward whereas I would say 10 15 years ago art advisors wouldn't necessarily be touching the design market It's much more of a regular conversation today And that's very much why I have you know started this new chapter. Well So do you feel like it's our interior designers functioning as advisors right now or is it mostly art advisors really coming over to this kind of collectible Market I think it's both Design advisors, which I think is the very niche thing. Yeah, there's not there's not very many of them is its own thing They're approaching it more from the aspect of collectible collectibility history context art advisors now Included as one of their genres of offering and interior designers at least a certain level who have always had it in as part of their Conversation just sometimes now I feel that a Decorator or an interior designer is looking at it from Additionally more of an aesthetic point of view and how it places into the overall project where an Advisor would pro-chip more as a as a collection stance. So Let's go back a little bit to you've done PR you did you worked with design Miami But at 28 which is kind of young you got brought into Carpenter's workshop gallery. I did I did I didn't think about it that way, but it was rather young now they look back on it Yeah, and it was kind of a huge responsibility in a lot of ways like basically Establishing it in the United States. Well, I didn't even know what What that meant, you know, I think when you're when you're young and you're not naive, but excited, you know Bright-out bushy tailed and just or like and the world is I you know anything's possible the world is your oyster And that was very much my spirit and I think also in many ways continues to be but It was more about having an idea of looking at these European galleries and seeing that there was a relative void in the market here in New York and in the US to be able to give them a platform to show and Carpenter's was a gallery that I always had super respect for I love their artists their program. It was very avant-garde and I had actually approached them about doing an exhibition in New York One of the founders thinking it was going to be part of my consulting, you know Business that I was going to start and that turned quickly turned into the conversation of we want you to open up an office And we want to do this full-on And then from there it just grew so it started from finding us, you know, an office which under the being the Fifth Avenue space kind of thinking about what that ethos of Carpenter's was and is and continues to be and how that that could translate to New York and What more New York is it than having this incredible penthouse on Fifth Avenue? So from there it was just, you know, an uphelt trajectory. Well take us through take us to that moment I mean, it's just like you get the job. You're like, okay, I have to are you building the roster? Are you built? Are you? What is your job exactly? I mean I wore many hats in the early stages. So initially it was you know acting on as on their behalf and with the founders to establish the business So that meant finding the real estate, finding the space, negotiating with lease hiring the architects setting up, you know, the US business infrastructure setting up the accounts hiring the staff and then going out and doing the business getting so the development of the existing artist roster and bridging that to the US market getting it in front of the right constituencies of collectors museums and interior designers and professionals and then You know translating that and and growing that and then as that, you know, those early days became more We became more established than our team started to grow and we looked at other markets like San Francisco Aspen Los Angeles and it was always really looking forward and progressing forward in that way Were those expansions due to demand coming from those areas or was it like You know, we just think that we might have an audience there. You know, I think I've always been very intuitive in my approach of how I make decisions personally professionally And with you know with this business in particular and it started off before we had the space ready in New York I spent that's that winter out in Los Angeles and that was 2014 or 2015 and I just knew that there was an appetite for What we were doing on the west coast in in that market because there was really nothing like that there at that time And people have Beautiful properties. They host a lot in their homes. So that was really kind of the beginning stages of you know kind of Creating necessity I don't know where to ask you guys almost as the gallery evolved like you guys were sort of establishing the market for for this type of work in the United States because I mean when I think of covers I think of it as like the gouging of furniture. I think many people do yeah And you know gouging obviously has established you know totally different business but In this sense you guys were like it felt like collectible design was starting to kind of come up the upswing And you guys caught that wave you know and we're able to say okay We are the gallery that is going to kind of present the highest quality uh collectible design in the world right you know and Yeah, but it felt like it was like these expansions where we're kind of like Premonitions towards like okay, we're going to areas where there is a lot of wealth. It's like we're gonna you know There's a lot of money in San Francisco and all Los Angeles and we'll kind of like almost train these Collector base here to understand why this is important. Yeah, and I think that they're very open and An eager for it to and they work in San Francisco or LA, you know, they're two different very different markets completely different type of of collector mentality uh, and in many ways I feel that San Francisco the Bay Area they're much more design oriented solution oriented by nature of the industry and proxy Whereas LA, you know, there is a history a deep history of collecting right and They really understood the idea of from the walls to the room concept of it's it's you know about the object the Life of the object the narrative the integrity the craftsmanship all of these details that go into making a work You know collectible how would you define What's the difference between what we often talk about is like fine furniture versus collectible what what do you feel Make something collectible? There's there's a few points that I think of um scarcity. Okay. There has to be you know A demand and there has to be scarcity in order to create the demand right um From my point of view, I'm looking at a function when you talk about functional sculpture. There is that artistic expression There's a strong narrative. There's a sculptural sculptural aspect to the work There's novelty whether materially or process driven or um, it aesthetically As something has to be new, you know, it's it can't just be and what we're talking about the content in contemporary sense Um, when a beautiful decorative can also just be a beautiful chair or an exquisite bench. But that is very defiantly designed or furniture versus being designed. I think there's there two kind of parallel. - Would you feel like that gets confused in this market these days? Like a lot of people are like, oh, I'm making this beautiful chair and I don't make a lot of them. That makes it collectible. You know what I mean? I think there's been a lot of, a lot of times in the pot we talk about is confusion between collectible design and fine furniture because almost everybody wants to be in collectible, but it doesn't meet the marks sometimes, you know? - It has to have, it has to be relevant within the context of the, the time, the business being made. - There has to be a relevance that people are interested and it means just because this piece is rare, one of three. - Right, it doesn't mean it's good. You know, it's good design. His design also has like, there's ergonomic, there's solution, you know, to the process. There's all these different aspects that make it also functional in design. - Yeah. - So tell me a little bit about working with the designers while you were a carpenter's, you know, you worked with some of the best, you know? Compana brothers, studio drift. What was the like day to day with that? I know you're building the business side of things as well, were you, you know, you guys talking with the designers every day, are you helping edit, influence, you know, push them in certain directions? What's that, what's your, you know? - A lot of that artistic expression and work shopping was spearheaded through the founders, but I did because of my relationship and, you know, my position in the US have a strong dialogue with many of the artists. We developed friendships in many ways. We had grown up and through together. I think Drift is a prime example of that drift, the Lawnica and Ralph. I knew even before, predating carpeners, before I was at carpeners, before they were even signed with carpeners. I think I was hosted them at the Bowery Hotel here. I was Lawnica's first time ever coming in New York City. So to then a few years later, a com full circle, be working together in a more professional context. And yeah, there is a sense of camaraderie and friendship, and nurturing and soundboarding and dialogue that happens just naturally. But I think there's many ways at least in my experience with carpeners and being there, that sometimes the artists come with ideas and sometimes the ideas are very much influenced by the conversations with the founders and that we would all have together. - Is that because of the dynamics of trying to have to build someone's career in a particular way, or is it heavily sometimes sales oriented, where it's these things? - Of course there's always a commercial aspect that you ever want that to overshadow the artistic integrity, right? And I think carpeners, if the founders are exceptional editors, they are really great at pushing the artist and helping them come to maybe a new realization of the work or a new evolution of the work developing some breakthrough pieces as well and some breakthrough series. So there's always this element of push and pull and through those developmental conversations you arrive at a result that's ready to be brought to life. - Did you feel like you formed your sense of, what you love and what you're passionate about over the last 10, 15 years of working there or being, how did your sense of, I know you grew up in New Hope, Pennsylvania. - Your grandfather was a developer. And there's some sense of mid-century-- - I mean, it's in the DNA there. - It's in the DNA there, right? - It can't, it's not. - So is that when your, quote unquote, taste started to develop or is this something that you've been forming over the years? I mean, you worked in fashion. I feel like you've always kind of been connected to design in some way, but where do you feel like you're a sense? - Since a kid, I was always, my grandfather was a developer and he was in real estate and also a vertical. So he was doing architectures, everything was kind of falling under his business. So I think just by proxy that it was always in my background, I used to take architectural plans and the grid at paper and be mapping out my dream house. I would be doing fashion illustration sketches. I was always creative. I've been a creative person my whole life. That kind of segues into working in fashion and then working in design and you develop your own taste or taste of valves, it changes. I'm not the same person I was 10 years ago, 20 years ago. But it's always been there in the DNA. I think growing up in New Hope, which, you know, it was home to Nakashima, Paul Evans, so many of these mid-century masters really informed me subliminally because you're just surrounded by it. I grew up down the street from Nakashima estate. So that was, yeah, we'd drive our bikes then. Yeah, a beautiful property. So there's always kind of this background in history that I think has informed me. But then when you start traveling and you start getting exposed to other cultures and other sensibilities, then you also change and you marry what you know with what you're learning and we're always learning, we're always excited and curious about new things. And that's what I think. You never want to stay stagnant, right? No, of course not. I just wonder if that's like how you've kind of then come to some of your curatorial stuff. Like, did this education come through working at the gallery system and design my M and stuff like that? Completely. Yeah. Well, I've definitely realized-- self-educate yourself on this stuff. Yeah, I know. I went to school for-- You were for art history, right? Yeah, Drexel. Yeah. But no one can really teach about this kind of history. No, it's intuitive. I mean, you have to be curious. And I read a lot. I see a lot. I have a lot of conversations of so many art friends that are artists and designers. When you're really immersed in it, that I think that gives you more perspective. And it's the best education that you can have, right? And with kind of how that is segwayed now into this new chapter for me, which has been now two years. It's crazy. It's been two years. Yeah, it can feel like that. Yeah, it's wild. It's you never want to be-- at least I never want to be stuck doing one thing. And that's why I'm so curious. I'm always working on different types of projects for this curatorial project, or helping to develop a young designer, or the advisory, and the procurement, which we do a lot of as well, both with interior designers, but also for private clients. I think having this dynamic approach to the business is what keeps us going. And that's even from the curatorial position that I've been holding now. I do believe that people don't live in silo. You don't just walk in-- way that you experience work in a gallery is much different in the way that you live in it. And we want it to start-- I want it to start curating and presenting work of equal caliber in conversation, whether it's a painting, a sculpture, or a design piece, a historic and contemporary. And creating these dialogues, because then you start to look at interdisciplinary-- how Giuseppe Pannoni and Andrea Bronzi-- there's a conversation there, academically, historically, aesthetically-- and thematically, there's so many different ways that you can make these connection points. When you start to see it from that perspective, I think it gives it a little bit more-- Yeah, we can get there. I wanted to talk about 3080s, because now it seems like you-- we can jump into that. Because as I zoomed out of your career, I was like, OK, she started here, and then she was at Carverage for a long time. I want to talk about the fairs with you a little bit. But it seemed like you went from this grand scale of a global gallery, and then now you've kind of gotten into this more intimate thing. And some bits of good work. Yeah, and I'm curious why-- because it's obviously a reaction to your previous experience, or it seems like that. You can correct them if I'm wrong, but that's what it feels like from my point of view. And I'm wondering where that reaction comes from and why. What you saw that you wanted to change for yourself and create a different experience for collectors as they come to 3080s. Good segue, good point. I think after 10 years of being in this very intense growth trajectory, a lot changed in my life, too. I just wanted to kind of take a beat and reflect and think about what I love most about what we do, which is that intimacy, the human connection, a very social being. So to be able-- what I love doing most is bringing people together with a storytelling. I think more than anything, I'm a storyteller. So to bring people together and to be able to tell the story and to introduce them to artists, introduce them to great creatives is really what drives me. And I also realized that I like working with small teams. It's there's something about that that I never want to lose that creative side of what I'm doing. So to be able to have a space that is my platform, my playground, to be able to create the narratives and to tell the stories and be able to you know bring great art and design together under one roof and then be able to bring people into that world is exactly where I want to be right now. Yeah so like kind of walk me through what it's like when someone comes to this salon. Okay perfect. So salon is a collaborative platform so thank you for referencing that way because I do steer clear about the word word of calling it a gallery it's more of a creative collaborative exhibition space. The space is set on 70th Street it's in an old historic brownstone, Victorian brownstone it's really beautiful and that's what we was really drawn to was this quirky architectural character that the space had that's original you know from 1887 and that lays it's self as the backdrop for these beautiful design pieces and artworks to be able to speak and we're by appointment during the day and that allows us to be able to really give attention to our clients and to be able to host and I'd say it as hosting because it is like we are hosting you know we walk them through each room each piece we tell the stories it's a conversation there's questions there's dialogue and then that starts as an opener to who without artist is who that designer is what else they've done so we'll say we'll have a coffee we'll look into and go deeper into that artist's story or body of work and it's enjoyable and it's more of an experience so it's the opposite of when you're going and you're hitting the galleries in Chelsea and you do 10 galleries in an hour it's much more of an intimate human experience to make connection with with work was that a reaction to the big behemoth of gallery system yeah and not necessarily not my experience the carpenters I think it's it's an added value to the gallery system that's why I say it's collaborative space because sometimes I'm pulling material from private collectors on secondary market and pulling directly from artist studios I'm pulling from private dealers and I'm working in tandem with galleries and the way that somebody will experience that same artist work in my space is supplementary and incredibly different to how they will experience walking into the white box gallery space so you don't have any kind of exclusivity over the artists or the works I mean or you have kind of it's consignment kind of things it depends there are a few artists that I work directly with and so that I I can sort of myself more of an agent with but and with that I'm also working with them with some of the other galleries so yeah cool but for the most part you're right it's more it's it's consignment and find like sourcing finding work right and you also have mentioned the agency aspect so so what does that mean so you have the it's the salon but the agency also functions as we do advisory advisory yeah advisory and sourcing so over the years you've met a lot of collectors and they come to you and they say hey we're looking for this or that and you yeah or or they don't even know what they're looking for and we we sit down as our educational process and look at the projects sometimes I'm working with their interior designer sometimes they don't have an interior designer because it's not the project isn't warranted to have an interior designer what do you where does their interests come from for starting to collect this yeah a lot of the collectors new to the game or are they people that have it's so mixed it's so mixed yeah I think sometimes it's also realizing the the cost of making a custom known aim table could be the same cost of investing in a great design piece that's a great point and that's kind of where a lot of the times I think I've come in and helped to the clients recognize that for that same val price for that value you can buy an incredible historic piece or support and patron an amazing you know contemporary talent and that becomes exciting are they concerned about value do we do you guys talk about that in terms of like it retaining value potential value in the marketplace maybe in the secondary market at some point I think that's always a conversation and I think that's something as an industry that we have to work on yeah especially when you when we're secondary market is extremely important when you're thinking about long-term trajectory value right especially if you're asking people to pay you know decent amount completely so I think you know there's never a a guarantee of how the piece will live on so you do have to love it and you also have to position it when you're buying contemporary that you're you're a patron of this artist and designer and we're propelling and helping to to support that Seville fair or that know how and without that patronage ship that would be not possible right so there is that aspect to it but then when you're looking at the historic work there is typically a market you know a reference of whether through auctions through private sale there's going back to that conversation of the scarcity of demands do you pay attention to the secondary market I do and what have you thought about the last two auctions it seems like collectible is very strong very strong like the strongest of all the more stronger so what do you think that means for for us for the for the industry because by the way it's not it's not heavily contemporary you know it's not like there's a lot of it is a lot of it's more established I think it's our job to to get behind you know our word as a contemporary I agree when when is that gonna happen well I'm working on it so you're single handedly no but it's a conversation I'm having with many of my colleagues and is that people at you know Sotheby's Christie's and things like this where yeah yeah now and also the other galleries do you think that this is gonna happen where we'll start to see the very contemporaries the ultra contemporary kind of like what you know the exciting sales at in the art market are do you think that that will start to happen in the design world I feel like that requires everybody to get behind it and that means you know what gets me don't don't do exciting prices get people behind the exciting prices too but also getting behind it in terms of you know the gallery supporting the secondary market of their artists and I think also when you see a work comment auction for one of you know a contemporary artist that you designer that you are a patron of or an agent of our support that you get behind it so that so that we can have a consistency in the market and when you say get behind it what exactly do you mean from me from my perspective I encourage my if I see it will piece from one of the artists that I support or that you know I've helped place throughout the years I highly recommends you know for my clients to go bit on it at auction and so to go for it you know not not to not but they should support it if they're what about encouraging them to auction some of the worst that they have in their content why would you want to do that right now if you're living with it and you love it right yeah well to ignite the market but if you can still buy that piece on the primary I don't think that you should be selling it on the secondary so when you do let's do that privately you know okay is there a market for that privately there is you can trade those yeah there is you know because people they move or they're getting to right you know there's there's different reasons why people sell their death and the 3Ds that it so so instead of you know unloading your entire collection that's be really strategic and mindful about how we can find new homes and have this piece live on in a beautiful life so are you a fan of like so of what's going on like I just you obviously I think it's great the what's going on the art market you know yeah yeah because I mean this is the only thing I have it to compare it to you know I mean it's like the art market has this idea you know a lot of people buy early then two years later you'll see things on the on the chopping block or you know either they soar or they sink and a lot of careers are you know there's boom and bust in a lot of ways for those careers so is that are you like you don't want to see the design world go in that direction or is it I'm much more in favor of more long slower you know trajectory than having you know yes this be fly by night dear I think that's also really really we have to be considered about the artist as well that makes her breaks their careers it's really hard to come back for that from that so yes it's really possible you shouldn't as a also it's I think you're like few additional your sole responsibility to not you know move too quickly through that process that's like yeah make sure that their pieces are being placed in great collections the characters also have the integrity that they're you know keep them in the yeah and maybe and if there is then exactly yeah yeah just see so let's let's talk a little bit about fairs you've had a huge amount of experience at fairs I have done my fair share of fairs on both sides right and jeez I think I saw carpenters at every single fair ever you know we were very heavy very heavy in the fair circuit was that quintessential for its growth I believe so I think fairs are essential for the development of dealer in that sense they're gallerist to be able to get out there and to be exposed to new market to new collectors, new communities, and to be able to share their purview, their artists, with that world. Now then, it's the responsibility of fairs to make sure that they're delivering on their side too. So it's a whole, you guess, community that we all have to participate. I mean, it seems like, you know, design Miami is obviously spearheading this kind of global expansion. They're going to Paris. They're going to be in the Middle East soon, back to 2027. On the side of, as a designer, I've heard a lot of galleries say, and maybe, you know, I don't know if this is true or not, they've said to me, you know, the fairs are more for the fair owners. You know, they make the money. We don't really make the money at the fairs. Like, whoever's saying that is extremely short-sighted. Okay. I can tell you through my experience being on the gallery side working at fairs. It's not about what you close the day of the fair. It's the relationships and the connections that you make. And those relationships might come down in your responsibility then to nurture those relationships. And then six months down the road, that might translate into a transaction, into a sale, might translate into in a major commission for the artist. And then you might have met a museum curator on booth that then it turns into a show in three years. So you can't be looking so short-term. And I think that people are very quick to judge and be so doom or gloom about. Well, we didn't make any sales on the floor. Yes. And some of that is actually, it's related to also other socioeconomic issues that are happening in the world, right? So people might be just pulling back their perks streams, but they might still be going around and looking and seeing. Make there's connections and there's relationships and then further down the line, they remember you. So it is important. It's interesting you brought that up because I wanted to touch on that a bit. Like, you know, the art market's going through a little bit of us, lump. Does that correlate to the collectible design market? And, you know, the purse strings being kind of pulled back? Does that, do you see that happening? In some cases, yes, but at the same time, people are still building homes. They're still moving. They're still, you know, decorating and designing. And there will always be a necessity for a chair or a table. Right. And I don't see that the same person that has, you know, the war hall on the wall is going to, you know, not consider a collectible piece for their space. Maybe not, maybe the whole house isn't going to be, you know, full of them, but they're still going to be considered of having some special objects. I'm always trying to figure out, you know, like how big this market can be, you know, if it's something that can reach the art world level, you know, if it's, or if we're always going to be this kind of smaller, more niche marketplace, you know, It's a good question. You know, it's like, because as you see fairs expanding, you know, there's not a lot of galleries coming online. There's not, you know, see a ton of new galleries coming online. I know also wonder why that is, you know, there are the establishment galleries, but I wonder if just the cost of doing business is just going to get into that. It's the sheer cost of moving a credenza. It's way different than shipping a painting. Yeah. That way, of course, the world. Right. So, I'm just natural limitations. I know. It's just the cost associated with it. That's very high. You need more space to be able to show design than you do showing painting to dimensional work. Right. Real estate is a cost. All of this overheads factor into, you know, also the production of a piece is much different when you're, as you know, when you're producing any of these physical objects, there's a material hard material cost, not just talking about like a market, a projected market cost. It's, yeah, labor costs have also a spike in, yeah, it's a much different animal that you're dealing with. So, I do think that that's also why the market is a little bit slower. So, you know, progressed to that level. So, which is not a bad thing, you know, I don't think it's a bad thing. You don't, that it slows down a bit because we were, we felt like hyper scale for a while there. It felt like the 2010 to 2020 just felt like it was a rocket ship. And then COVID hit. Well, COVID is crazy. It was crazy. It was crazy. Because everyone was in their homes and looking at what different things that they could do. I thought it was going to go, I was like, this is amazing. What's happening now. For our world, it was very, very positive. You know, there was a bit of a hiccup for a couple of months and then it started to come back and it was so grateful for that. Yeah, me too, but that was rough. The following years, you noticed that, okay, well, everyone renovated, everyone bought it. So, there was like a slowdown and then I feel like it's starting to pick up again. But it's hard to figure out. Yeah, that's life. There's always going to be ups and downs. I know. So in the good times, you have to anticipate for the lulls too. And I think that's just business aspect, right? So being aware that this might not continue or it's likely it's not continuing forever, that there will be a slowdown. And then it's a cycle. It's a cycle. Yeah, it's a cycle. I know it's just that we hadn't completely cyclical. It's the first cycle that I've experienced in my career. You know, where it's like, oh, I've been through a 12 year, like all of the not highs and lows. You know, it's just an interesting thing to kind of reflect on you're like, oh, wow, this is a different time than it was. And then, you wonder, is it what's going on politically in the United States? There's so many factors that play into this. I know. It's a, yeah, that's why I wanted to have the, like having you on it. You know, you're obviously in the thick of it as well. On the designer's side, I'm in the thick of it as a designer. So we're always trying to like, you know, figure out these, these, these waves that we're experiencing. That's important for us to have these conversations. In terms of the fares, the last thing I wanted to kind of touch about that is like, is there, there's this word that goes around this call fair fatigue? Mm-hmm. And also, there's this idea that you don't really get to really experience, it's like shopping for art and design. Is that, has that been really beneficial for our industry or is this, is just like the nature of the beast? You know, because I think what you're doing with 3080s is kind of like where, you know, like everyone in this world of exclusivity and all that, they want a more exclusive feeling. And I think that that's probably what you're providing for them in that kind of context. Like your salon will never do a fair or will it? No, I don't want to, I don't want to, I'm not a gallery. And I support the galleries. So it's, I think of it more of a curatorial platform. Okay. And it supports the advisory and not procurement. But that's not because I don't like fair. I mean, I'm also working very closely as a curatorial partner with, yeah, with LA, with design Miami and we did a project this summer, this past summer in Aspen. And we're looking at doing another project in the summer as well together. So I'm very pro fair. I think you brought up an interesting word and you're, I mean, not fair fatigue experience. So I think that the fair experience, and this is something I, I feel design Miami is kind of focusing on. How do you create an experience that is to finally unique in one market versus another? Because at the end of the day, the fair fatigue comes from you go to all of these fairs. And you have amazing time seeing your friends, seeing your colleagues, you know, summer more successful than others. But the fatigue happens because you're seeing the same thing over and over and over again. And it actually doesn't even matter if you're in Hong Kong or if you're in New York City because the actual construct of the fair is basically cookie cutter the same. So how do you create unique experiences that will bring, you know, that sense of intimacy to one city or another? Do you feel like that? What Jess is doing with basic space and design space is kind of answering that or trying to? I think it's, it's along those lines. Yes. I do think that this design, the Miami Institute program, like what they've created in Seoul, what we did in LA, what it's a lot of storytelling and it might not be every year in that specific city, but it's kind of an intervention to dialogue with the local history and the design, you know, an architectural reference to that city. That's that's I think that's kind of the vibe that's the angle that it should be going. Yeah. And then you have your main fairs, you know, Paris is turned into a main fair and also architecturally that experience that you have in that hotel particular is so different than what you have in Miami in the tent. So there's there's different ways of injecting that into the experience. Do you think that middle, we sell, we sold quite a bit to the middle east. I feel like it's a robust, you know, area now. It's kind of exploding. It's very favorable. Yeah. They've been very supportive of the design. I'm sure they want, they want, they want, they want a lot of activity there. They want a lot of, you know, sports, design, they're bringing everything over there. Yeah. It's kind of an interesting time to see how that culture is exploding. After almost two decades in the industry, what are what excites you about the future the next 10 years? Let's say of your career. - Good my career. - Yeah, of your career, because, you know, this has been two years now that you've. been doing this new venture. I've been having fun again. Yeah. I think that was a big thing. Being able to be excited and inspired and having fun and being able to also be nimble maybe 3080s. So I decided in two or three years, not want to do this anymore. I want to shot it and move. And that's okay because it's a, and then I can reinvent the way that I'm doing, you know, the business. It's, I haven't really thought it and I never really have had a 10 year plan or a five year plan, maybe five years, but, you know, it's always been allowing without getting too philosophical, but I've been intuitive about listening to the signs and feeling what is the right direction to move and where to go from here. And that's always led me to my next place. So. But it's your, your through and through in the design world. It seems like. And just a creative, creative. Yeah. So I love the whole, yeah. I've always been a hardcore design. I don't, I think that that's not going to change. Yeah. And so I crunched in it. Yeah. I mean, made a whole life. I mean, and I love it. It's like a drug. You're addicted to it. You know, it's, you're passionate about it. I don't know what else I would be doing. Oh, I did think about this, actually, because I love hosting. And it's also part of the experience at 30 days and in the evenings and you're going to have to come to the next one. But we do readings or drawings, the lawns or what I love. Drawing so long. Oh, we had a figurative drawing salon. Like a new model. Oh, it was awesome. And I had, I haven't done that since undergrad. I haven't done it since art school either. And it was so great to get in as a meditation. And we had 40 people over and we, yeah, we, I gave sketchbooks out and charcoal and pencils to everybody. And we had the, you know, 30 seconds, one minute, two minutes. Oh, yeah, they're like posing. Yeah. That's fun. And we had a DJ, we had great music, great food, everything. And we had a stage that, for the poses and the lighting, everything's being the style of maple thrope. So it was very, very fun. But the best part about that was, was that for 45 minutes, people were so into it. No one was speaking. It was just the music and the, you know, the posing and the drawing. No one was on their phones. It was so beautiful to watch people be so into the moment. And I think that you probably had some really good artists there. But it would be so intimidating to be drawing, life drawing in front of like some of your design. It was so great. I want to do another one of those. That's wonderful. And then we sometimes have, you know, literary salons where we give them a prompt that's usually tied to whatever the theme of the show is. And Drew Sabah, actually who's the former editor of Document Journal, would curate these evenings with some young writers. And it was really cool to see how they have been interpreted, you know, some of these topics and themes. And to have that platform has been, I think, the most exciting. And so of course, the curatorial aspect of it and what we're showing. But I love to be able to have this space to be able to bring people together and to be able to activate that. And that's what was leading me to this long winded answer. But I thought about it and I love hosting so much. I thought, you know, I would love to have a restaurant with ten tables. Okay. I say this now and I'm sure I regret it if I actually had it, but the idea of having a space where, you know, friends can pop in and you can be there every night. And of different chefs come and cook. And I had a friends. I have a friend Alejandro Alcoursera that had the studio downtown in Browns before. And for me, he was the, it was all about who he was as a person. You know, he, and he would bring together the most interesting people. And you know, you could always stop by and see him and meet somebody really wonderful. And you know, at the table. So I don't know how a place like that he's since left. He lives in France now. And I don't, there's never been a replacement for that for me. And I don't know where in New York you go to for that type of experience because it really was just a moment in time. It's 20 years, but this moment, you know, I feel like you'll, you'll pull us up together and open a restaurant. I don't want to fund it, but I would help. I'll design for it. That'd be fun. I'm like, maybe you change out the design of your season. I, you know, I'm also into anti-main was one of my favorite films as a child. I was just being very telling of why I do what I do now. Every season has to be changed differently, you know. Yeah, that could be a great idea. I was going to tell you how often do you guys change the salon around or is it just kind of a bit so? It's, it's, it's very organic. If a piece, if a client wants a piece today, I will send it out today and it's never going to be static like that. Oh, bring in and rotate as it goes. But thematically, the changeovers are three times a year. Three times a year. And that is very intentional. I don't want to do six week shows. It's, it's intense, you know, it's, it's, it's a lot. Some people do do that. And it's, it's a lot of planning, but then you're never fully present with what you're showing because you're thinking about the next show and the next show after that and next show after that. And what I really want and talking about this is going to slowing down and it's being able to program around the themes and be able to have a period of time where people can come through and so they could come back. And, and also we can just enjoy what we're doing in the moment, which is really hard. I never really got the monthly turnover, because also as on the artist side of things, you're like, wow, only get 30 days. Exactly. It's not fun. It's not fair for anyone. For, because sometimes you spend years, you know, two years building that show and then all of a sudden it's done in 30 days. For that moment. Yeah. That's what fairs are for. Fairs should be, you know, quick and, quick and steady. Yeah. Um, that actually, you maybe think of something here that, um, there's not a lot of criticism, design criticism. You know, when it comes to, like when you do a show in the art world, you get, you know, reverse myths. Yeah. Why do you think that is? And is that something that's needed to kind of help sort of the scholarship of design and that kind of side of things to build? Yeah. I'd like to see more criticism. Yeah. Good, bad, ugly, all of it. Right. Where there's not a lot of places to find that, you know what I mean? There's not a lot. Why are, why are magazine writers not, you know, put, sometimes I'll like talk to my writer friends. I'm like, oh, I had some good. I had good reads lately. Yeah. Didn't, didn't, uh, the carpenter start the design at it was the, the, the blog, it was like of a blog, no? The design edit, which was intended for that. They no longer, I think it's gone. There, no, I, I'll get back to you on that. But besides, you know that there's the woman who was writing and over as the editor and over seeing it. Um, Emily, she, I think is, uh, two point outing it. Okay. Or in the process. And she has full ownership of it now and it's gone to a new life. Mm-hmm. Because that was like, this is the first thing that I see. But it was very academic and great criticism. Yeah. Correct. And it was like, okay, but you know, it feels like it needs to be imprinted for some reason. No, I, that's actually a thought that I had that there was an annual book or a bio-enable book, uh, because, and something that was physical that you could keep and collect. Exactly. That could be a really interesting segue of not just having it be this digital blog and this digital read, but also have it feel a little bit more substantial. It feels like, yeah, it feels like the industry needs a couple of these things to kind of, you know, feel even more and more established as we go. That's a really good point. Yeah. Um, I mean, we have the art world to base it on. That's why I'm basing it all off of that. But so if you could give advice or build a career for a young designer from scratch today, like, what would be some of the things you would tell them or do or advise them to do? Hmm. I think stay true to your practice. Take your time. And it's not a difficult question because it's so specific to the individual, right? But I do think things, stay true to your practice and taking your time and not giving up. And so, um, how does someone get to someone like Ashley? I don't know. How does, how does someone get to carpenters or, or, or, you mean as a designer going, yeah, reach out, pick up the phone, send an email. With their stuff. No, I think it, that's best just to say I want to have a meeting. And I'd like your advice. I'd like to take a look at something. I will never turn that down. I don't like it. I give young designers advice all the time. Mm-hmm. Take a coffee. Take that people can slow down. I mean, it's a, it's hard to say, okay, I slow down. How do you slow down when the world and the pace and having to make an income and all that just keeps you in the grind? Well, I don't think anyone wants to put out a collection or a body of work that's unresolved. So that takes time. And, um, but, and you also shouldn't be afraid of creating and making the mistake. The mistakes are good. You know, they get you to your next level. I actually sat in a friend's class at I'd Hove in a year ago and I realized that this, this generation that was going through that they were so scared to, to do it and make a mistake that they do. We're not doing the project. I was like, how, when I was in school, if I came to this class without the project done, it would be like, that's your competitive school though. Yes. No, of course, but, but at least try it. At least try. Get what's in your head out into the physical world at least try and then I think through that process with the guidance and the critique and the feedback you workshop it together in and it goes to the next phase, the next phase, the next phase. So, what made my slow down is it means take your time and actually continue doing the work. But it was funny to me, if I showed up with no project, like nothing were there's project doubts in my head. I've heard that there's sometimes critiques just on that idea. I have the idea. I have this idea. Like, close your eyes and envision it. I went to Carnegie Mellon to meet the graduates there and they would sit down and have critiques about the thoughts, the ideas before they produce something which I thought was cool. That's pretty cool though. That's cool. But when you're at the phase, when you're at the phase, because this took more like the intellectual development of the idea to get to the place then when you're putting it out into the world, it's like resolved enough. Yeah, that's actually super cool. I'm talking about more like the projects of speed time. How do you see a couple of designers come through over the years where maybe they were too young to be to get kind of shot out and didn't really know how to handle that. Because let's say I'm thinking about it. If you come out the box, right, come out the gate with some very particular work, collectors then want that work from you for a long, you know, they want that iconic work. It kind of creates, you can kind of get stuck sometimes designer. And if you're too young, you don't even know how to really manage that. Right. Sometimes I feel, yes, so that in short answer is as you can't think of exactly an example of it right now. But I also feel like what? Well, no, what happens is, and this is where it's about being good editor to and not being so caught up in the commercial aspect of the success of it is once there's too much of it out there at some point when you flood the market with a specific body of work, it's kind of lose the precious nature of it. And it's important for creative to also go through doing, okay, they just had to break out, break through collection. Next collection might not be your series of work, might not be as commercially exciting, might be artistically more exciting, but maybe I was commercially is interesting. And that's okay. And or it might be a total box. That's like a conversation you're having with us. Yes. I think we need to. I do. Yes. Really? And focus on making new work focus on your new ideas. And I think that's important. So question. Important role of an editor is knowing when to say, okay, like pull back and not get too caught up in the financial success, you know, pull back. And also it will make the interest in that previous series of work more, more, yeah, more valid. How do that? I mean, just a logistical question. Like, does the gallery, I mean, these are conversations I'm having with artists friends too, as just as a as a as a friends, a soundgear. Is there just the gallery help support them as sales, you know, like our people on a monthly, you know, subs, you know, what do they call them? Like an allowance or something? Well, I can't really speak to that. I think that might be happening circumstantially with. Yeah. I don't know. That's what I always think about. It's like, okay, I understand. Like I, you know, as my career went and I'm like, okay, I got to make more and more work. And then I want to slow down, but you're like, well, I can't because I got to support all this infrastructure. So I was just wondering what that's like, you know, I also feel like I would not would be happening. Perhaps if the artist was exclusive with what, but I don't know if I necessarily believe in total exclusivity either. So unless, the gallery is really like has a committing to a high return number per year for that artist. Otherwise, they're beholden to the gallery. And then they can't potentially have these other outlets for income or for creative output. What do you feel? No, I mean, no, you're feeling on it. I, I've never loved the idea of exclusivity. I think that that's partially why over the last 12 years, I've never, you know, worked with a gallery because they would have, they did want full exclusivity. And that just seems like hard to commit to certain numbers or maybe it's just one body or maybe it's one body of that I like that. I think it's a good middle ground. Benchenzos, I think, Felie, that even Matthew Leneir, I feel like worked in that kind of model, you know, was like, okay, you're going to represent this. Right. And then I still have mine that gives you a little bit more autonomy as an artist. Right. And flexibility. But I think it's interesting that you don't think exclusivity is the way to go. Unless there are certain conditions that are favorable for both sides. Right. Well, this has been awesome. This has been great. I need to do more of you. You're a first podcast. First podcast ever. I'm honored that you did it with. Well, you're an old friend. So it is easy. It's like having a conversation with an old friend. All right. Well, that's a wrap, guys. Thanks for joining us on Design Discord for this awesome episode. You know the drill. Hit that like button. The subscribe button. It really helps us. You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and on YouTube where you see this whole thing recorded. So please subscribe. Send us a message. Send me a DM on Instagram. I'd love to hear from you guys. So, and I will see you on the next episode. Bye-bye.