As apologies fly, is Tonda Eckert lucky to still have his job?

Outspoken with Whiter Jordan. Hard-edged, hard-nosed, hard-to-beat. Where are you coming from in this one? You're 100% essential down there. Jim White and Simon Jordan. You let this guy off control. From the world's biggest sports radio station, Talks 4. Coming up, two weeks on from being cut out of the playoffs, both the Southampton owner, Dragon Soulike, and manager, Tonda Eckert, have broken their silence with apologies to the fans. Have the club got away without a fall guy? Meanwhile, we're just over a week to go until the start of the World Cup. Is it arrogant for the English to expect to win it? And as Lutley reveals, he almost quit the Premier League before winning it this year. Does Simon have any sympathy for the abuse that he suffered? This is outspoken. Spygate. Remember Spygate, the written reasons of the league's arbitration panel for the expulsion of Southampton have been published. Junior members of staff told the Independent Disselpind in the commission how Head Coach Tonda Eckert had placed them quotes under extreme pressure to carry out attacks they were clearly uncomfortable with doing and felt was morally wrong. In the written reasons Southampton's Condit was spying against Oxford, Ipswich, Barra, was described as a contrived and determined plan from the top down, which Head Coach Eckert had approved. We're going to hear from Tonda Eckert in a second, but the owner, Dragon Solaie, spoke to Southampton's official social media. Rules have been broken, there must be a consequence, and I'll take responsibility for that. But they also believe the sanction imposed is grossly disproportion. The level of breach combined with the outcome of previous cases makes this feel incredible harsh. His defense, as well as the players who suffer the most, many of whom had already made arrangements for Wembley once the semi-finals had been gone ahead. I also believe that the competition itself loses credibility, suggesting that decisions made of the pitch can see result on the field, simply wiped out, this cannot be good for the game. As I have said, I want to close this chapter and look ahead, and I want to look ahead together as one, including Tonda and his staff. Tonda's period is our Head Coach, has been a success so far. Our form during 2026 has been remarkable, and we believe he is the man to take us forward. As a board, we are fully behind him, and together we only have one objective. We want promotion back to Premier League. Tonda Eckert stays. Tonda Eckert, Simon, addressed the situation as well. When I worked in Italy for over four years, every starting lineup that we've chosen for the games was always out in the media before games. And the reason is that our training sessions, especially the ones before games, have always been observed from media, and have always been observed from opponent teams that we came up against. Gajola has spoken about this as time at Bayern Munich, that it has been common practice in Germany to observe training sessions, knowing that other teams will do the same. I don't want to say this to excuse anything that we have done. I just want to give you context in the way that I grew up in the football world. There are different rules in England. There are different rules from the EFL, and I should have known them. I am a young coach. I have made a mistake, and I take full responsibility. I want to think, drag on in the board, for the support, especially in times like this, with everything that I have said, without script and without predefined statement, speaking to you from the heart. I hope that you have an overview of what has happened over the last weeks, and I hope that over time you can understand and forgive. I hope to see you all soon. Could it be in the Premier League by no sign? Would you have sacked him? Would I have sacked him? Well, they have been sanctioned. So the manager can clearly manage. So what are you going to do? Double whammy yourself now? What is the point of falling upon your sword now? You've been sanctioned. I might have if there was a trade-off to be had with the EFL, which was if I sat my manager, do I keep my place in the player final? That's like pleading with a cop up on the slide of a road, but he tells you he's going to give a speeding ticket, and then he wants you to kiss his back side for five minutes. Well, no, I'll kiss your back side if I'm not getting a speeding ticket, but if I'm getting a speeding ticket, just give me the speeding ticket and let me go back to my business. They've given the sanction. Now, clearly the manager can manage. Clearly the guys are capable, led. So why would you want to have further indications of self-harm? The way to avoid it, this is not to cheat it. To suggest that you didn't know is preposterous, because you might not have known, because of the fact that you've been working in Italy, and what a wonderful role model that is, where they get their biggest clubs and chuck them out of the league for corruption. So I've worked in Italy, where the biggest clubs have been relegated down the pyramid because they've been corrupt, and we know who they are with due respect. And you're telling me that the people that signed off the expenditure for the trips, the flights, and things didn't know it. So he may not have known the specific EFL role. He may well have been conditioned to an environment. He's no good using Guadalupe as an example, because Guadalupe is not being cited in British football, being a cheat. You are. So they've had their two, three weeks to get this together, and this is their best version of it. And to suggest that the people within the confines of the business that would have been, because what you've got is sporting directors over here now, and you've got commercial and chief executives over here. And what the sporting directors have been able to engineer a situation is where the chief executives are idiots. I don't know anything. They just run commercial side of things, keep them away from the football. And so the expenditure side of things that would have been incorporated, I would imagine, to have signed off things that needed to have been done, whether it's flights to different parts of the country, would have been signed off by people that do know the rules. And I've decided that those rules don't necessarily apply to Southampton because the better outcomes were there. We live in a world where I am in the camp of saying this is the, the playoff sanction was disproportionate. I believe it was disproportionate and so did Stephen Borton when we discuss it the other day. I thought it was harsh, but we also live in a world where they'll tell you, infatically, that marginal gains make a difference. So when you're suggesting that they don't for the purpose of this conversation, because it suits a narrative, Dragon doesn't have any integrity, because he's prepared on one hand, argue the principle of the fact that there is an offence here that's cheating, but doesn't really value it that much. And I don't blame him because his belief is, is that the manager will get you to the promised land. And we've been sanctioned. And I, to some extent, I understand why we do that. Why would you find the manager? Who are you doing that for? I do your fans want to fight, probably not. They probably think, well, you're in Brazil. You've got a situation, but you're a bloody good manager. Yeah, but don't you use a set an example? The football club, Simon, there is no foul guy in this. So there is the full guy, the whole, the, the bleeding clubs are full guy. They've been booted out of the playoff semi-final. The chairman's a full guy. The chairman's bankrolled this football club for hundreds of millions of pounds, probably born the losses this season of permanent wages from the last season, done what he could just keep the club afloat, changed managers, fired the previous manager, born the cost, he's the full guy. Yeah, but the, the, the, the manager center of it, undoubtedly is time to echo and he's not been fired. There's no consequence of what it leads. Yeah, there is because he could have been a Premier League manager and he could have been a Premier League manager with a great big fat salary and a great big fat reputation. Does he deserve a second chance? By the standards that we've existed under, yeah, because B also got one. So we use, we use leads as an example and suggesting that £200,000 fine was, was what leads got and he didn't get smacked on the wrist, he didn't get vilified by his own club. And this hypocrisy inside football, where there's some, such, everybody in football cheats. The players cheat relentlessly and endlessly. I just listened to some whining nonsense from Becaran Tony this morning about being treated like a piece of meat because he injured himself outside of football and it expects everyone to carry him for the rest of his life. Football is reset with people taking liberties. So I'm afraid I don't believe that Southampton should have fired him unless they want a clean house for our benefit for the integrity of the sports. Everybody goes unpunished. I know they haven't noticed they haven't been released. The fans have been ridiculously punished. The owner has been ridiculously punished. The manager has been reputationally damaged and financially impacted upon. So how much, what do you want? You want absolute bloodletting. You want it out in the middle of the street and people queuing up to throw tomatoes at him. They got their punishment. They got the absolute punishment they could have got. So what we want now is we want the council culture and it's absolute finite form. We want him taken out and banned for life. You know when you employed thousands and you were you were the employee error. If anyone had made an absolute holo of a mistake, which this is. Yeah. The mistake and it makes mistakes. And it's crossed your business big time. We'll depend. We'll depend. What possibly? No, not necessarily because if he's been able to and because there's been receptive ears to it, let's just assume that we've set the ears are receptive. They want him to produce an outcome that means they haven't got a fire because they like him. They can clearly see he can manage, right? So they don't really want to lose him and they look at it and go, well, we've been slaughtered. We couldn't have had anything more. So why would we commit another act of self harm? We've already done one. We've been stupid. We've spied on other sides. We don't think nobody really thinks in football. Nobody really thinks that the material advantage of watching Middlesbrough I bet you even Steve Gibson didn't until the circumstances. Because the rules have been created on the back of a potential a set of standards that they believe underpins the value of the game. Great. So with that in mind, so why do players cheat all the time then? Why are we why are we having to deal with simulation that was was was rules brought into protectors from that? So I think with all due respect to the consequence. I'm not entirely sure what does Southampton achieve by firing the manager? I see a great number of messages. Just come on on Spigate. What really did they do? What really did they do Southampton? What they brought the rules? And I'll tell you more about what what they did with one or two WhatsApp messages, which reveal how the plan was orchestrated. I'll get to that in a second, but at the moment, you know, his life is normal for South Ampton, not in the Premier League, but in the championship. And Tonda Eckert remains the man in charge of team matters, Dragon Soul like says, no change there. But what did they do? Those WhatsApp messages. A junior analyst sent to observe Oxford United train before their December fixture with South Ampton sent a message to colleague saying, I didn't really have an option. And wasn't provided an opportunity to say no. I was an intern and was doing what I was told. When he sent details from that session back to his boss, he received the WhatsApp message reading you legend. Manager loved it. Upon being asked to carry out a second spying mission on Ipswich, he expressed concern but was told that the boss's adamant that someone needs to go. Ahead of Middlesbrind the playoffs, Eckert was particularly interested in finding out if Middlesbrind's Hayden Hackney was training or not, there were differing reports as to his fitness. South Ampton's operations manager, Buked Flight and two nights accommodation, the junior analyst intern was shown drone footage of the Middlesbrind training facilities so that he could get an idea of where to stand. He flew up to Middlesbrind on Wednesday, the 6th of May, but was told that Eckert was unhappy didn't fly up to Choozy so that he could see the Wednesday training session. The junior analyst intern went back to his hotel and awaited permission from Eckert to return home. When this didn't come, he left of his own accord and caught a train. It was while he was on the train that he learned from news on the internet that South Ampton had been caught spying on Middlesbrind. It goes on Simon. It goes on. Before we go any further, you probably remember former South Ampton defender who just retired last week, Josie Fawn, hugely respected figure in the game, had this to say on spy gay. If it was only the manager that was involved in this situation or the manager and his staff, I feel it's very, very tough to punish a club and the supporters for something that one man has done. So in my eyes, if he was the manager's decision to do that, he needs to be punished, not the club, not the supporters, not the players. Obviously, it is wrong what he's done, but if the board had no idea what was happening, if the players wasn't aware of what was happening, why should they be punished? Why the supporters should be punished? I don't understand. Well, Guillet, collective responsibility, but the fans unfortunately have drawn into it because they support the football club at the heart of this course. But he's saying, "Eckert, no, no deal. Should go. Rob's a big South Ampton fan. Do you agree, Rob, that it should be time up for Eckert? Or are you of the opinion? No, it's right that he stays. Eckert needs to go straight up. He's ruined the Sanctuary of this club. He's tried it through the mud. You know, we're a club, you know, built faith. Like, St Mary herself watches over our club and this guy is literally ruined it. I'm ashamed to wear my South Ampton shirts now because it's, I'm afraid of what, you know, people will say, you know, before that it was all, you know, it's football banter. Like you were talking about yesterday. It's just football banter. You know, I give it, I get it, you take it, give take, that's what it is. But if I go ahead and make fun of your club, right, you can, you're going to turn around to being called me a cheat. And unfortunately, that's true and that cuts me deep. Like, they're like, I'm not going, I can't go to any games next season. I can't bring myself to do it because it's just a massive slap in the face. That they've decided to keep this guy. Yes. Which openly admitted that he's what he's done. It is second in to me, you know. Rob, I put that to Simon. There's Rob, who very genuinely and honestly is telling us what his football club means to him in title to his view. I mean, the manager has a different version of events, whether we believe them or not, he says he didn't know the rules. Do you believe that? I can listen, given the fact that most of them don't know the rules about anything, I wouldn't be surprised, but the people that signed off the expenditure that were involved, whether it was the operations manager that people refer to, they do know the rules. So have a look at them. The club's been consequence. The club has had many challenges over the years. My God, you're the ones that had a group of lowers your chair, I'm a cross-safe. So if you can live through that regime, you can live through anything. Let's have a look at these clubs. Let's have a look back in the past. Everyone telling the live-wish to be pulled apart when Bruce Crabber was accused of cheating and taking bets. These things have gone in the past. Get over it, get on with it. These situations happen. Tom Durekker is probably your best solution to get out of the Premier League. And if you can't bear to wear your Southampton shirt anymore, and if you feel that your club has been compromised by the actions of perhaps an uninform manager in an industry which is beset with cheating from top to bottom, then that's for you. And that's a shame for you because you'll miss out on perhaps your football club recovering its poise, finally it's way back into the Premier League. At the end of the day in an industry which is a beset with, doesn't matter how you get there, doesn't matter who tells the truth, doesn't matter how the businesses are run, it's about getting to the end game. And unfortunately that's the real world. For you, if you can't countenance that, then that's obviously your choice. It's not enforced clearly in other countries. So spying on your opponent. Should they scrap the rule? I just like tapping up, isn't it? I mean, it's just a silly rule. I mean, the players talk to one another in the dressing rooms. They all know what's going on one another's business. They all know what they're getting paid. They all know what they're going out with. They all know most things. So integrate scheme of things. And in the games that they've spied on, they've never wanted to give them. So the material advantage is virtually none. So scrap it. You can scrap, scrap it, not scrap it. But the point is is that if you want, if you believe that it's underpinning, what we're saying is we're taking this whole year than now. It's not this caller that the industry itself is taking this whole year than now rule that once upon a time, six years ago, me, a Bielsen who openly copped to it, didn't get any real sanction. And they got a 200,000 pound fine has now turned into the loss of a potential 250 million pound opportunity. What's going on here? I tell you what's going on here. Histeria created by outlets like ourselves, ramping the noise up, ramping the outrage about it, looking at it. You've just waddled to charge. Careless what they said to one another. They've been found guilty. The correspondence between intern and internal management putting Southampton is irrelevant to this conversation. They've been sanctioned. Now what we're trying to do is what we do in every walk of life is we're not happy with people apologizing. That's not necessarily true. It is. Trevor Burst. It is at the EFL who you respect and know, but you thoroughly respect and admire, meet the decision along with Rick Perry to what at the at the EFL. No, they didn't. Who you respect. No, they didn't. They upheld the help. They didn't make any decisions. They put it in front of the independent commission who made the decision. Right. And so they represented the actions of the other 71 football clubs in the EFL to uphold a rule and they put expulsion on the table and they argued a case. But they could have gotten in front of Steve Gibson and Middlesbrough and said, "Now slow down." And this is ridiculous. No one's getting kicked out of anything. Well, that's not their gift. It's the independent commission's gift. The constitution of the rules that the clubs have put together is not fake. It's not Trevor Burst's decision. Trevor Burst has no say in this. The constitution has to be uphold. The rules have to be applied and the independent commission's assesses the case on his merits. Was it right to kick them out? No. It's disproportionate. But I've never, I've not changed from that. I've said this ridiculous. It's like putting someone in the electric chair for shoplifting. So for pushing it, the Steve Gibson, the man at the shop at the house at Middlesbrough lack integrity. Do you have done which the agent did? He has, no, I would have done what he did because he has a right to have a view on it. There's a rule. The rule has been broken. But the materiality of that rule is the argument that has to be put into play. Even though you know it would be disproportionate. I would leave. So Thamton with Chuck Toe. You would do it, Gibson. That's not his job. His job is to suggest I'm claiming. He pushed for a sport in the same way. I'm claiming foul. You know why. You know. And I know why he claimed for a sport in sanction because a self-ampton made an absolute haulage of the way they conducted themselves. Look at their own admissions. They've turned themselves in. And by the way, some of the things they're saying in some of their statements probably are ill advised as well. So we're now suggesting that the panel was made up of people that at the Middlesbrough leaning. So to add insult to injury, you've probably actually gone up to Middlesbrough in the playoff game and a conversation with Steve Gibson, smoothed everything over and then did the powder opposite in public. There's a low wolf. Those sort of things probably incited Gibbau to riot. If I know the man, who can say to this? Looking good. Nobody. How? 100% engagement. How? Spoken with white and Jordan. The emphasis shifts to the US and the World Cup. Is it arrogant to expect to win the World Cup? That's what England expect to do. That's what they expect to do. And we're told that in this new documentary, which the FA are releasing, building the dream England's road to the World Cup. Have a listen. The World Cup qualification campaign isn't as simple as you think. As a young boy, has that's right at the top to play for your country. It's a dream. Thanks for the ride so far and we keep on going. We know it's going to be a tournament to remember. I know how much it takes to get there. It's like we're a small family. We're trying to bring the big prize home. Oh my god, that is so arrogant. That's so entitled. How could we possibly characterize that as a sense of arrogance? Let me give you these quotes from Harry Kane and also from Tuko. Harry says in Gareth's early stage, we spent a lot of time talking about trying to make it more together and trying to put the club football to one side when we come here with the national team. I think here by year that got stronger and stronger. Now of course, the expectation is to go over the line and win. Thomas Tuko told these players at their first meeting at St. George's Park. The mission why we are here is very, very clear. We want to be world champions. We want to put the second star on our shirt. And for me, it's very important that we just speak about it. Just straight away, speak about it. The mission, the target of this mission is clear. The second star on our shirt. And that would go with the other star on your shirt, that's 60 years ago. When you won it in 1966. What's wrong with any of that? What did you think Thomas Tuko was being brought in for? What we have is people publicly stating that this is their ambition. This is what they expect to achieve. This is their ambition. This is what they've been brought in to achieve. Anything less than that will be disappointment to them. Harry says the expectation is to go over the line and win it. Of course he is. Do you expect England to win the World Cup? I hope them to win the World Cup. That's different. Do you expect them to win the World Cup? I'm not a player. I can't influence the outcome. The players can. The manager can. I can sit on the sideline and look at it through the prism of saying, "Well, I hope that everything goes our way. We will need some luck." There were teams out there who were better players than us. But collectively, can we overcome the frances of the world that have got better individual players by being a unit? Is Thomas Tuko able to achieve what Garof Southgate wasn't able to achieve in key moments in key games, Croatia, Italy, what are you talking about? I know. I know. Yes. Do you have a physical characteristic? Let's get around about all this old Fanny. I'm not talking about this. Is the expectation among England fans? No. You win it. How can that possibly be when we live in a country where we do poor things down? No, there will be a lot of optimism. There will be a lot of desire and a lot of belief that the natural progression as it was for France and every other team, why should we be the only team in international football that gets into semifinals, gets into finals, and then doesn't go to the natural conclusion, which is the win. Of course, it's part and parcel. We've got the best Premier League. We've got some of the best players in the world. And now we've brought in an elite manager. So Garof Southgate did a lot of good work. And a lot of good work was indicated by how he came talking about the mentality of building on this silly nonsense about club players couldn't play one another. And there wasn't this dynamic inside international football. All of that excuse and rubbish has been removed away. You've now got a elite manager. His sole reason, the reason why they went for Thomas Tuko, is not to maintain the status quo, was to win. What is wrong with him saying that is our expected. As you expect Tuko and England to win. I expect we've got a better chance with Tuko than we've had previously. Yeah. I would suggest if a moment comes on top and we get the opportunities, if we get the same opportunities we had against Italy and against Croatia and against France, I would expect to win those games with Thomas Tuko. Right. Does that mean we win in 2021 if Thomas Tuko is easy to say or the manager of England in the Euro's 2021, I think we had won that game. So that means we would have had. You would have beaten Italy. Yes. Now, whether we would have beaten France, different matter, or whether we would have overcome Spain in the most recent Euro's, arguing for those points. Right. I'm arguing for the opportunity. We were never in that Spanish game really in the final. We were most circling in the French game and it was. You were in the French game. You were in the Col Parmer, equal like. The Spanish side were miles better than us. In that tournament, Al, we got to a final, just tells you the quality of the tournament. But we did and we got there and fair-plated. I don't want to take anything away from Gareth and anything away from the players. But we all know it was pulling teeth watching England during that Euro's. And they got to the final. The only time we saw anything vaguely resembling a sightman was the second half against the Dutch. And the performance against the Dutch was a version of England that was far more appealing than what we'd seen previously in that tournament. Well, it's lovely to be reliving these games with you. Thank you. I'll give you the detail you're putting on it. Good. There was an expectation on Europe and on the part of many England fans that with Gareth, you should be winning those trophies. Yes. You should be winning that final against Italy when. No, no. Based upon the opportunities in front of us. Yes. There was an ex-pager. No with Thomas. In those moments. You're hugely hopeful. In those moments. Given what was in front of us, we had the Croatians fight balls and we didn't change in the second half. We allowed them to change. Lovely. We had the Italians in a cleft position and we knew what was coming in terms of the spec. And we never changed. Right. So I believe that with Thomas Tuckle in those moments, an elite manager mindset will affect outcomes. I see. I see. So I think that gives us a much better chance. I did not expect to win tournaments under Gareth's Southgate and we said that we wouldn't win without Southgate and Qatar. Yeah. And I said we wouldn't win the Euro's Southgate. The only problem you've got there is when Tuckle changes something in the hope that that gets you over the line, the opposition manager will change something as well. We'll see what we're fuel react. And that's why that's why that's why the challenge is there. But you're hopeful. We're not in a situation where, so for example, what could have, if you'd had the argument about our TETA, which a manual Patee was not saying yesterday, which was when PSG changed, Arsenal could have changed, could have gone after them, but it didn't. So there was a change made that by an arrival manager and there was a reaction that didn't come from Arsenal. Now in this situation, if France took off their best three players against England and the quarterfathers of the World Cup, would Tuckle sit in their game when we're drawing one or will he try and win? I would suspect if it was Gareth's Southgate, we would be looking at a different outcome. In many of the TETs that were said yesterday and said there is an expectation in France that the French will win. Because they're brilliant. In the USA, that the French will win the trophy. Because they've won. But that's not the same here is what you're telling me. You're hoping that Thomas Tuckle can get you to the promise of the line. We haven't won anything for 60 years. Even though Harry is saying the expectation knows to go over the line and win it. We haven't, with this word that we're trying to ring out the meaning of it. There's an expectation of belief that we are capable of winning this tournament. Or you're capable of it. Right. So that's what they're saying. Yeah. It's not an expectation we're going to win it. It's definite. The expectation is that we are heading towards winning a tournament. But in France there's an expectation that they're going to win. Based upon recent times of being able to achieve things. Based upon being in a situation where they won things in recent years. Based upon the forward line we would suggest that is an embarrassment of riches. Right. We are scrabbling around saying who do we bring with Harry Kane? All he Watkins found his foot form at the back end of the season. We've pulled Ivan Tony and playing in the Saudi league. Now go look at that at the top six of that friendship. Got a compare and contrast. Right. And your trump card, no, this is a German. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's a difference. That's a difference. The trump card in this is a manager. There's a couple of making decisions. It doesn't matter. We live in a global sport now. So it doesn't really matter. In the same way that if Brazil won, now that's supposed to be talking about their trump card being Italian. It's about necessity to win games. And in this situation, an ideal one in your topian world would have English managers that were top of the game. But they aren't. Go work out why that is. Go work out why the best managers in the Premier League are not English. Right. So you're tempering it down to a degree that your hopeful Thomas can do it. Harry says the expectations to win it. You're hopeful that Thomas can do it because it would be arrogant to expect to win. No, well, look. Look, we've got no basis for that. And I don't think we've ever expected to win something. They demand people. People take the demands of the of the of the probably most passionate fans. And I would argue the English fans are the best football fans in the world. Some of them let us down. But most of the time, if you look at the attendance, look at the skill, whatever, for the purpose of his conversation. So there is a desire. I would desire to look at English football and say, of course we want to win. Of course we want to win. We're desperate to win. Of course we shouldn't be playing songs like it's coming home and all that rubbish. We shouldn't do that. It's nonsense. But if you don't go into something with expectations, every season I started as an owner of Crystal Play's, I expected us to be challenging for something. Most of the time it is promotion. Is that arrogant? No. If you've got some of the best players in the world and you've got a, but it's not arrogant. Why do only weak minded people think it was arrogant? Why do you just see it then? England expects to win the World Cup. No, he should win the World Cup. I anticipate that England will put themselves in a really good position where if a chance comes our way, this manager might take the opportunities that previous managers didn't get. But previous managers put us in better positions and have now built a platform. The platform that Tuckles springing off is a much better platform than the one that Southgate had. 100% engagement. Outspoken with White and Jordan. Hi, I'm Matt Ford host of How to win the World Cup. Your guide to finding out what it takes to win football's greatest prize. Underbits on the side. Find out why a cow destroyed the manual Patis career. What a chef's biggest fear is, hint is a bit of the Gary Linnakers. And we get Maisie Adam to play a game of Waggerth the Christie too. That's How to win the World Cup available wherever you're listening to this right now. Looking ahead, it's a big return in the world of boxing for Anthony Joshua. Anthony Joshua will face the Albanian Christian Pręga in Riaz Sadi Arabia on July the 20th. It would be his first fight since two close friends of his Sina Gami and Latif Lazio Dele died in Nigeria in a car crash in December and of course that as you might imagine had a profound effect on AJ himself. AJ on that occasion was a passenger in the very vehicle in which the two died. Now regardless of fight if Joshua wins it he's set to face Tyson Fury later on in the year. Another got in front of AJ and the good old chat and Spencer Astam in the circumstances regarding his return did AJ feel fully ready to get back in the ring. I spent months making sure we're 100% physically. Obviously I've got eight weeks to go but I've been training already and mentally I'm a lot stronger than ever before I was. So I understand myself a little more and I want to be here you know some people might not decide to be in this position after the heights of the headweight division and also the lows of life but I feel that this is the right place for me to be so I realise I'm in the right place mentally because no one can make decision for me except for me. Should you feel Josh that rollercoaster that you've been in life, that mental rollercoaster not just the physical one is the character building that you've got you to this place where you are right now and is that motivated you even more than ever to continue boxing. So when I look at why I got into boxing was to it wasn't so much like I want to be here for the champion of the world it was like this fitness thing this is a good community it was like these run clubs at the time it was like a community of boxes that were all really working hard into their fitness into getting a six pack and I was like yeah man I want to look good I want to I want to change the way I'm living my life and now I feel the same thing is like you know what this is a really good part of my life boxing of course is the pressure it's the one and to win but on the core of it it's really good for one's mental health I think and I choose boxing as my form of therapy my form of fitness so yeah boxing is a really good way for me to keep saying to keep my feet on the ground it's good for me as many more ways than being just a champion it's incredible mate in so many ways you know that you've come back the way that you have you look so great and we're fighting as soon as July the 25th I mean it's quite incredible Christian Pranger is that guy I mean talk to us a little bit about him yeah big knockout percentage 20 out of 20 well when we look at the expectations that a leader put the greats of the headweight division of today we're not saying that the guys he's knocked out are the best ever but you still have to knock these guys out if they were put in front of me would have done the same thing I would have done the exact same thing but now he's up against me and I'm up against him so we can't live off what he's done he I can't live off what I've done I'm going to go in there and do my best he's going to go in there and do his best and the best man if we just look at it on the basis of it on the basics is he's going to do his best and I'm going to do my best I believe my best is very good and I'm very capable and God willing there's no hiccups and everything goes just the way it should go and all roads lead to that fury fighting November a difficult is it for you just to stay focused on one fight when you know he got the big fight looming in the background so through like my experience of having these situations put in front of me so many times with Dante Wilder and so on and I understand that blocking out that energy it also takes effort and I don't want to put that type of pressure on my back bring it bring pringar bring fury you know I'm happily I'm happily signed a contract I saw it was a two fight deal when it was initially presented I knew what the task was I know what this year is about I know the pressure of this year and I embraced it and that's why we're here now so I know what this fight is if you if you if you bring us that here and they said if you beat Andy Joshua you can fight Tyson Fury he's going to say bring it they told me if you beat Pringar will give you Tyson Fury I said please give me that contract and it's no problem to me no pressure I just know what is required of me and I stepped up to the plate he games all about opportunity yeah absolutely listen Tyson Fury isn't I think they're going to announce it this week speaking to Frank Warren earlier this morning he says now he's going to be out again in August does he fight in a tour mark I'm not sure who he's fighting Frank wouldn't give me Frank wouldn't give me any indication he was saying to me when I was looking for an opponent for this day he was like you know fight I think you're saying fight wardly fight a tour where he's fight so easy to be made yeah if you're looking for all come back fight so I think that would be a perfect name because they're all under the same promote from yeah yeah absolutely so Fury is what he says he is maybe he's just that forward and Frank should put his fight forward so they're worrying about warm up to I totally get it mate I actually threw Andy Ruiz his name in the mix and said what about Andy because I spoke to Andy out in Egypt said like he said that he's keen like he said not Andy Ruiz but it'll be a top ten opponent so I'll be interested to see probably Dr. O'Millah who that is yeah it'll be very interesting mate very interesting Anthony Joshua talking to Spencer Oliver it seems AJ certainly mentally is in a very good spot considering the tough time he has come through with these two friends leading his life in that Nigeria car crash well he as he says this is probably the best place for him and there was always a school of thought which says is he going to be able to recover from the horror of what he saw and would boxing be the best mechanism to help him with that I think most people would think that the distraction of boxing to take him away from as I say the horror of the circumstances he found himself in the loss of the lives of two of his very close friends probably would be the boxing ring so you put him in with a low risk opponent now I know the guys got a record of knocking 21 or 20 of the 21 fighters out these four none of them have any of the caliber of Anthony Joshua so this should be a formality for Anthony Joshua he's been Macavellian about Tyson Fury and who Tyson Fury should fight the original Grimm and I understand was that they were going to fight at the end of September Anthony taking a fight in July means that in order for them to fight again probably means in November middle of November so that means that Tyson Fury has to be out of the ring for seven eight months in preparation for the battle of egos the legacy fight no there's no fight about this is the race to the bank right this is about two fighters that are both past their best that are not fighting for world titles anymore fighting for huge financial returns sure we're a good fight though well one one one hope so yeah but the idea that Anthony then eludes to the fact in a Macavellian way that Tyson Fury should be fighting Moses at home or Fabi Awardsly when he's fighting an Albanian dormant is probably slightly mischievous on his part who's who's returned to the ring except you more Joshua's are furious neither really I understand the value of this fight and I'm not going to be a miserable side and say that I wouldn't watch it or go to it because I know once I have no interest in engaging or actually talking about Tyson Fury I recognize the game that we're in right and the fact that they're fighting this fight in most people's minds were captivated great audience they won't be doing it for for small amounts of money so the economics for them are the driving factor yeah so it will I'm more interested in watching Fabi Awardsly see if he can maybe re-emerge again and come out from the circumstances of Daniel Dubra I'm more interested in watching Daniel Dubra fight maybe agit cabill I'm more interested in watching Abbott cabill or fighting Alexander Oostick I'm more interested in fighting watching Moses atoma right fight for her for her guvich because I think they are with real jeopardy and intentions this is about us watching with respect and I don't have any begrudging of top athletes making lots of money watching two guys make a ton of money on the back of what they've once were before and fair play to them if the market pays that and that's what the Saudis want to pay yeah and the audience figures are going to be enormous and the intrigue will be there for the for the punters you're asking me where's Amir can cabill brook not the same yeah of course it was I mean we're both we're both of course it was next off to that of course it was but we have you know in this I've always maintained and there's no I've got no disrespect friends in Joshua intended I think he is the victim of the classic British media trick of building people up to levels at the not we've done it with Marcus Rashford as a footballer he's a world club no he's not he's a good footballer so when he falls below the standards that we've artificially imposed upon him he gets judged by it actually Joshua is a good boxer that caught away and people are attributing and maybe justifiably so come on you must have talked to our PG don't you never never but that's why I've got used to have arguments with his very close friend Michael Jarman and that's why you know Spencer's always defending Anthony Joshua because I've called him a flat track bully and I was the one that said you lot think he's back when he fights Germaine Franklin when he fought Robert Helene yes when he fought Otto Walling when he fought Francis in Ghana first live one he gets gonna get knocked out and he did by Daniel Dubois so with that in mind I look at his record and think he's a two-way two-time heavyweight champion of the world I look at his roster I look at previous world champions and think well their roster's a much more impressive I don't think beaten Eric Malina and Dominic Brazil and Charles Martin and some of the opponents you know and Pervekin and a few of those opponents that were passed their cell by don't he fought them including Glitchco makes him have this status that he's got but I understand me you're more excited about Warley Dubois 2 than you are about fury because I think it will be I think that was a better fight I think it will be a better fight I think this is I think Woldley and Dubois are in their prime whatever their prime might look now from a media spectacle from the optics of people are raving about you bank versus Ben I thought it was I've seen better fights outside with us but because of the spectacle that went with it and all the backstory and the backstory of this is fury and the fact that he and Anthony Joshua have had this rivalry for years, but they're fighting for money, which we all do in the, of course, that sounds very naive. They all fight for money, but the real, real motivating behind this is the fact that you said, if you said to Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua, we're going to pay you five million pounds to settle who's the best fighter in your generation. They'll take, "Shav, I'm your backside." I'm not doing it for that. So the economics behind it is driving it. It's the same motivation for every fight, not necessarily, but not necessarily. Of course, you've got to have the economics of a fight, but you won't see Moses or Talmer dictating the price point of whether he'll fight the best heavyweight in the world right now. He'll fight them because he wants to win a world title. He'll fight them because he wants to be the best as professional. He has run for you. You always talk about live ones. It's now officially ordered the Usich to defend his every week title against a mandatory challenger, interim champion Ajit Kavail, who I know you rate highly. And Ajit joined us the other day. And he said, "I'm not sure that Usich fascist find me." Yes, I'm the, I worked so long for the opportunity, you know, but I'm the next for Usich for the WBC title. But no, when I come back to Germany, I think Usich is scared from me. He will not fight the fight the Kavail. This is, I think he will make the fight, he will make the we match fight with Rico. You know, you say, you know, you have a no, you know, understand, he can beat Rico better. And now you have the, he can watch the fight, you know, for him, and he can make the analyst. But I think when he fight with Kavail, this is a different fight. You know it. And now I think he's scared for Kavail. Let me, you're saying he's scared of you. You think he's running from Usich. Yes, 100%. Yes, 100%. I'm not sure that's true. Of course it's not true. But at the end of the day, I don't remember where hell I'm fine. One would hope so. I mean, for this one, first and foremost, he's not the opportunity to get a shot, which is why I was so aggrieved on his part that Rico got the opportunity before he did. But his performance is against MacMood off, against Frank Sanchez and against Julie Zhang were massively impressive. But they weren't without jeopardy. I mean, he cut down MacMood off before MacMood off became less of a fight when people's minds. He blasted out Frank Sanchez, who most people think is a, put a glass eye to sleep at times. And he made hard work of Julie Zhang in his most recent performance and did the job. And when Zhang was being considered to be a very difficult fighter to overcome, if he fights, as it came, I would be tipping Usich to win that fight. Hot-East, hot-nosed, hot-savage, outspoken with white and Jordan. No matter the topic, when you and I disagree, we disagree. When we agree, we agree, and we're agreed that we both love the dark story, not very much. I was glued to it. The bit of Jim Premier League darts final at the '02, the other night. And it went all the way. And Luke Littler came out on top after he beat Luke Humphreys. It was quite a final. But thereafter, Luke Littler had one of two things to say. And it became apparent that he's been wrestling with some of the abuse he's taken, that on stage arguments booze from thousands in attendance. Wheat 9 and Manchester is where the atmosphere in the crowd started to turn against him after a missed match dart by Van Vienn. The Dutchman he was playing against, the pair exchanged a frosty handshake. And the Dutchman said Littler was, quote, out of order what he perceived to be Littler celebrating the fact that he had missed. And Littler also gestured that Van Vienn was a bit of a crybaby, so it kind of carried on, then came Rotterdam, of course, in Holland. And the fans were behind one of their own in Van Vienn, and they really turned it on against Luke Littler. He was roundly booed as well because he was support for Manchester United. So one way or another, Luke's been getting it in the neck from crowds in and around the Premier League darts circuit. And Luke Littler spoke about that somewhat surprisingly and elaborated on his comments in a post-match conference. This was Luke. Yeah, I mean, I hope it's a turning point. I've been at seven stage tonight. I'm not asking for symphony, I just told the world. I told everyone how I was feeling during the Premier League and yeah, the biggest outcome is next to me. But yeah, I think I don't know if my mum and dad were shocked because I didn't really speak to them about it as much as I did to Faith. And yeah, so they might speak to me tomorrow or the day after and just talk about it. Because maybe I should have should have spoke to them. But you know, those men we don't want to really talk what I had to speak to Faith and tell how I was feeling. Faith being his girlfriend. Right. That wasn't a media conference, Simon, where it was all a bit more sedate and well-behaved. But on stage, after he beaten Humphreys, the broadcast I had to cut the interview short because of what was going on in the background because Luke Lettler was emotionally. He went so far and didn't want to go much further, but he said he almost quit because of the abuse that he's been taking. I think Darts fans have got, I've got to remember this boy is just 19 years of age. He's been playing like a man. So you can't ask people not to treat you in a way. This is the modern day society. I don't know why they're doing it. Maybe because he's always in front of him in a fast food concession. I don't know. Or because you always do that. You always jump on him because of his appearance and he's over. I think as a young man, I think you should look after yourself better and I think you should want to be look after himself better. I want to be an example. I don't want to make him into a role model. That's not really helpful. I'm not trying to be helpful. I'm trying to be flippant. But in this instance, I look at him and he's a number one dark playing the world. I remember the day when Eric Bristo was publicly vilified by fans because he used to walk on stage and caught the atmosphere of the crafty cock me and go against the audience and really go against the jockey worsens of the world. And if you want to play in a man's game and you want to be paid like a man, then you accept the consequences of all the rewards and recognition. He is a strong character in his own right. I watched him the other day at the walled lead to bar fight. He has got tickets on himself. He's not shy retiring a little wallflower. He is confident and full of himself. You know, as you do, I could just, I could just, I could just, I, first of all, I don't blame him because if you're 19 years of age and you're the best dance player in the world and you're getting a lot of recognition, not on money, most people would let it go to your head a little bit because that's what we do when we're younger. But I could just see him walking around a little bit full of himself. And that's fine because we probably all do it. Now people in this country are often beset by envy. It's a culture that wants to whittle people down a lot of the time. And so he's put himself in a way of that. And whilst we should say in our idealistic be kind world where people that always put be kind in their bios are normally the most unkind people would suggest that well, we've got to watch out for people's mental health and their wellbeing. He's a number one dark player in the world. It goes with expectation and pressure and it'll go with people not liking you because you're the best. And there's only one thing on hopefully the people that are around him will tell him there's only one thing worse than people talking about you. It's people not talking about. But it doesn't really need people like you saying maybe you should cut back into chocolate biscuit. Well, I think he should. I think someone should be saying it to him. I think it's unhealthy. I think a young man of his age should want to be physically fit and should want to be looking after his health. We have a crisis of obesity in this country. We talk about it regularly. And yet we have one of our leading sportsmen, despite what people, I think that's his sport. A lot of people don't. I think it's a sport and I admire the dark players for their fortitude. But if we're going to get a young man in that space, I'd like him to be the best physical version of himself and people can turn around and say what they like about it. You can get the guys that look after him, the matchroom guys that are making money for him and say, oh, typical Simon to say that because they haven't got a ball to set themselves. There's nothing wrong with what I'm saying. You know, when you've got, they're just letting them be though. And that's why I'm letting a little bit of a little bit of a loop. And when it gets, you know, type two diabetes or whatever it also gets and is a burden on the national health service, we're going to all say something else. But right now what he's complaining about, what he's complaining about or saying he's suffering from is a section of the fans having to go, no, I don't know why they're doing it. And it might just simply be because he's the best player in the world. And it might simply be that it goes with the territory. And it might simply be, it might also be because he is a little bit cocky. And it might be that. And if he wants to exude that personality, which I don't know if he does or doesn't, you go with a territory. He is young. I accept that. And I accept that it comes with a degree of experience that can say, let it go over your head. But it's quite sad though when he says the reception he got in Rotterdam because he was playing the Dutchman van Vien. Yeah. Was the worst I have experience, but his mindset going forward was I'll just expect the worst. I mean, that, that is quite sad for that. Well, what does he want? Okay, what does he want? And I'm adulterated love. How about the crowd behaving themselves? But that's not, you can't control the crowd. You can't control the way that people react to you. I mean, we're all here. The darts is fun. And they all get into all their fancy dreams of it. It's fun. It's the laugh. It's wonderful being there. Also, for the purpose of this conversation, we could say that across a variety of sports, couldn't we? But the purpose of his conversation, is there any reason in your mind's eye, whilst you're advancing the case of great sympathy for him? Is there any reason why the crowd have gone against him? Because of his altercation that he's had with van Vien. Okay. And he's a big, so he's a big boy that can take the Mickey out of the way. these opponents by giving it their big, their quiet babies. Yes, it's mine! When it comes to his appearances as well. And you're having a laugh. Right? So I'm the poster boy for that, then. I'm not. But the fact of the matter is I'm just telling the truth. I would like to see a young man in his pomp being fit and healthy. And if that's a crime, then I'm guilty of a crime. If people want to tell me, that's an awful fact, Godship. I mean, I think people should look after themselves. I should look after myself better. I think people should be encouraged to look after themselves. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't make money from it little or I'm not interested in gaining a popularity contest with him. He's a brilliant dance player. When you advance him as a poster boy, which they try to do for young dance players, wouldn't it be nice to see them all looking healthy and vital? And having a generation of young people that look healthy and vital, so they become healthy and vital adults. And so, surprise you, you're going down that line though, because to me, that would be in an ideal world. And you would always. Well, again, something like that. No, it's not an ideal world. It's a choice. This is a choice. Some people, this idea that we can't live in a healthy society that costs more money. money to prepare food than it does to buy ready-made fillers. It's nonsense. That's just the lazy people that have excuses. And I've had these conversations with little flakes like Max Rushdom, when they talk about, you know, if you walk behind someone that's thin, walking down the road and they're just macy-hated to say it's child abuse, if you walk behind a kid that's really fat with fat parents, and you call them fat, it's called child abuse. It's not called child abuse. It's called, you know, unfortunate circumstances. I have different views on it, but as far as the abuse that he's experiencing, we don't know whether it's because of the aesthetics, but the fact is he's the number one dance player in the world. Yeah. And it might come with the territory. Yeah. James Wade has talked. I've had conversations with James Wade when I did up front with him about the challenges that he has on the circuit and how he reacts to the pressures of being a dance player. Individual sports, we've all finished to put aside the knockabout idea that some of the operators are made of either trying to be humorous or off the mark and disrespectful. We'll meet you put them, sorry. Off the side of being disrespectful as well. Yeah. It's a very difficult thing to play individual sports because you really are. And I watch these guys. You're on your own. You're on your own. Galthus, tennis players. Yeah. You know, even quicketers that are facing a bowler. It's a one-on-one competition and it's a very difficult thing to do. So you have to give them a lot of respect and to the manner in which they operate, but this is the world they chose to operate. Don't be a dance player then. Don't be a dance player. I'd be a food tester. It's steady. I mean, maybe it will get to the time that Darts needs a little more than little and he's done. Well, maybe we're already there. Why would you say that? I mean, I know that they're making a case for the fact that he's provided a huge uptick in young dance players. I would suggest, actually. He doesn't do it to be slaughtered on stage. He does it for the financial returns and benefits and the opportunities to laugh present him as a result of being a good dance player. I would suggest that the gentrification of Darts via the broadcasting excellence that your previous employers had put onto the stage, which is Sky, have elevated the importance of Darts. Evolvated is focus. Evolvated is recognition and rewards. And that in part alongside the arrival of a prestigious talent. Yes, prestigious. Prodigious talent like Luke Littleer. I'm guaranteeing you. Byter because you want to do so. With all that in mind, I think you should get on with it. And here's the lesson that life lesson. Do you think that by telling boo boys that they affect you, that that's going to win you anything, that that's going to stop them from doing it? Because actually the worst thing you can do is let people know that it affects you. Because the more you let people know that it affects you, then the more they're likely to do it. And people will suggest that all that's not right. We've got to care about someone's mental health. Resilience, overcome its sun. You're the best Darts player in the world. Hotest, hot nose, hot semit. Thanks for listening to Outspoken. Don't forget to leave us a 5-star review and subscribe whatever you get your podcasts from to make sure you never miss an episode.