Arla Workforce Shortage Discussion

Hello everyone, it's Friday the 21st of August and welcome to episode 307 of the kite podcast with me. Well Evans, this week we are talking about recruitment, skills and inspiring the next generation. A new survey of British farmers carried out by Arla suggest that almost 65% of farmers say better education and training is the most effective measure to attract more people into the industry. There is an age in workforce across agriculture and food production, 48% of farmers are over the age of 55 and the average age of workers in the supply chain is 46 up from 40 in 2018. There are a vast range of queer options available in farming and the wider industry but how do we inspire new entrants and provide clear entrances and pathways for them to develop careers? Well to discuss this we are joined by Paul Dover who is UK agricultural director at Arla Foods and dairy farmer Tim Dale. Also where this is podcast producer Bakie Ray and everybody's favourite dairy market analyst Chris Walkland is back from his holidays. Chris over to you for the milk market report, where are you this week? Well I suppose I've got to bring you my report from deepest darkest Cornwall, a news broke last week after I'd recorded my bullet in that Lactalis had bought Saputo's David Stowe so that's going to throw the spanner in the cheese works on a number of fronts both down there and in southwest Scotland where it has another factory and I think a lot of questions emerge on the back of this move which I'm sure we'll be discussing in more detail one day. And I went to Scotland this week where I saw for the first time in months a puddle, a lot of you will have forgotten what a puddle is of course not least you will very dry north Wales but the lack of them over the last few months is really starting to focus the minds of processes. So there have been huge jumps in prices this week with fresh ways up six pence for October it's biggest monthly increase ever I think. It's up 9 p in two months to 38 p. Wike is also firing on all cylinders it's up 8.9 p in three months and joined Parkham Farms on a 40 pence manufacturing leader but that comes with caveats and warnings in case the rest of the market doesn't support it or follow I think others will follow those leads but I don't think other farmers should expect their processes to match them just yet there's an element of catch up in some of these increases and in appeasing increasingly agitated native not least with fresh ways. Wike have also tried to drive the market forward like Parkham did neither have got the money out of the market yet. So to the commodity markets it was GDT week this week and the overall index was up 2.3% so the third consecutive increase and will take that I think. The event means we're 2/3 through the GDT calendar with 16 auctions down 8 to go and compared to the opening on the 6th of January commodity prices are up 10% to an average of $3,870 SMP is up nearly $1,000 and nearly 40% over that time frame. So SMP sell for $3,500 with Arles selling for the equivalent of 2975 Euros which is up 140 Euros on the previous auction and equate to nearly £2,600. So whoever sells your SMP on the auction pool needs some bigger helpings in the county next week to get the price over 3,000 Euros. So tell the chefs. Mozzarella also posted a decent 6% rise. Brilliant 6% rise and was up $240 to $4,235. Arles Mozzarella also did brilliantly and posted its biggest increase since March of over 200 Euros to 3,650 Euros. So whoever sells that obviously did have extra portions last week. So 3,650 Euros equates to 3125 Sterling but I'm told our market is ahead of that. Butter also had a useful gain EU butter was up 150 Euros on the previous auction so that crosses 4,130 Euros. Arles doesn't sell any butter on the GDT. It's far too superior for that of course it's product. So 2, you're up and what's been going on here? Well Dutch butter increased for the second week in a row but still didn't manage to cross 4,000 Euros threshold. However I think it might do next week with that GDT crossing 4,130 Euros. So Dutch is at 3,950 Euros but spot prices I'm told are up to 4,100 Euros may be. Schemes around 3,000 Euros. But unfortunately it still means the ampy price is still well pretty terrible if you supply into the commodity markets. You'll be around 10 Pents away from that 40 p.m. price I talked about. Cream? Well that's between £1.65 to £1.70 so about the same as it was over here. EU prices have actually overtaken UK 1s now to £1.75 to £80 equivalent. However the weather has turned that might affect the fresh market and no one can pay that sort of money for cream and make butter or AMF so either butter has to rise to match it or cream will fall again. On the futures there's been a nice lift on butter this week though every contract for the next 6 months is up and by an average of €170 so that's looking brighter too. The average tops €4,400 now. Schemes also work by the same amount to €3.185 so they're climbing but they're miles higher compared to the physical market and we need the futures to drag the physical one up. Cheddar is the difficult one, the interesting one that's undoubtedly strengthening it has to in order to pay the milk prices that are needed. There's no mature or extra mature around so that's hard to get a price. I heard deals offered in the recent past at £3,800 sterling and then pulled after a week and growing up to £4,000. Miled cheddar I've heard anything from £3.125 sterling up to £3,300 and beyond and that's if manufacturers are letting it go. Basically the situation is this the chief price is rising but it has to rise to pay some pretty big milk bills. The farmer expectation I think was £40 by Christmas. For some it's there for October and others we'll expect it for October so basically we've got to go from £3.125 sterling to perhaps £3.7 to £3.8 sterling for mild in three or four months and that's why they aren't selling cheese off cheaply now. However Irish sellers are miles behind at £3,053,100 and that's a massive break on prices. Another break is the EU cheesed futures prices and the EEX index. They're not just round the flame in pipe, they're up it as well as far as our market is concerned and they aren't even. at 3,000 sterling. Those prices might be right for Europe, but they aren't right for the UK market with our volumes falling off a cliff. mozzarella prices are now at 3,700 euros after a good jump this week the GDT will have helped that. They're up 150 euros this week and 200 over two weeks so that equates to 3,170 sterling hours is around 3,250 to 3,3 sterling so better than cheddar. Now finally spot milk is 47-48p so there won't be a single cheese maker buying in spot milk and everyone that's got any sense will be selling what they can if they've got milk to sell. So there you are a market report that's full of prices and some speculation on the cheese perhaps I doubt anyone any buyer will believe what I'm saying on the cheddar prices but there you are that's how I see it. So now it's over to our guests Mr Dover the only Dover in the world where you don't have to queue to get near and of course Farmerdale taking away Dover and Dale it's got quite a range of that doesn't it you should be a double act on the stage goodbye. Thank you Chris good to have you back Tim welcome to the show can you introduce yourself to the listeners please. Yeah thanks thanks Will and thanks for the invite first of all just what a pleasure it is to be invited and to be joining you in such a luxurious company on this show and also it's fascinating to see the mechanics of how it's put together in the background so yeah very professional he's the word you're looking for Tim very professional I would expect nothing else of you back here so yeah I'm Tim Dail Dairy Farmer from Shropshire Arla Farmer I've been an elected representative since we joined the co-op in 2014 member of the board of representatives and separately from that I chair Dairy UK's Farmers Forum and I'm a board member of Dairy UK as well. Busy man okay Paul welcome to the show to you as well can you introduce yourself and also tell us about this survey that Arla have recently carried out and some of its key findings. With pleasure Will and like Tim it's great to be here today thank you for welcoming us on and hello listeners so yeah my name is Paul I am you know the UK Agriculture Director for Arla a huge honour and privilege to do that job there is one of me in every market where we have cows we have milk and we have farmers so Sweden, Denmark and what we call our central European area which is a few countries pull together so I do a couple of things I support Baz who you know well friend of the podcast I support but I'm actually sitting in his office so don't tell him. So sitting in his office today so I support Baz by being a member of his leadership team along with the other functional heads across the UK business but my day job is really working with those those amazing farmer owners and a great agriculture team so we support those 1800 farmer owners across the UK to contribute to and benefit from membership of our dairy co-op of which we're very proud so together with our elected farmer owners pretty strong relationship pulling down the value chain with retail customers and farm advisers etc but my primary job is to support our farmers with what they do and they do a vital thing which is producing healthy sustainable nutritious food that feeds the nation so we have a farmer owner survey every year and it covers a broad spectrum of things from how we're communicating with them to milk collections of farm how my team are doing to support them on the sustainability journey for example but on top of that every year we deep dive a topic that is increasingly challenging for our farm owners she's on workforce and this is our seventh year of the survey so the key take out well is that our farm owners are finding it very hard to attract the right caliber of individual to work on farm it's no longer we feel now about labor shortages it's about skills and the pathway that we need to act on before the situation worsens further the summary we we're bringing to people on the back of this year's service that food security starts with people and our dairy farm owners are telling us we really need to address this yeah okay you've got a 440 responses to the survey what are with everything in mind that you've just said what's one of the most significant stats for you to have come from it and what do these tell us about agriculture in its future direction the key start for me is 82% to 82% of our farm owners with vacancies it's said that they can't find the right skills they can't find people to fill those jobs and unfortunately this is a trend so it's never been less than 80% of the last seven years and projecting forward then it's it's only going to worsen or stay the same based on that past seven years so we think the time to act is now so we know there's some very immediate challenges that our farm owners are facing and the drought being won and I'm pleased you've seen a puddle Chris we could do with a few more of those but what we know is that food and farming needs to attract its fair share of the talented passionate young people and new entrants to ensure that we're resilient on farm and on site because I'd like to talk about our production sites as well that can lead the fully full value to change to national security so we must that now before it worsens and I'm grateful to the chance to speak to you about it today alongside Tim okay Tim was there anything in particular in this survey jumped out to you yes so just taking it at a very high level I suppose the age profile of the respondents to the survey that of itself highlights the importance of the survey and with over 48% of the respondents over the age of 55 it just shows the opportunities and the need for to recruit new people and yeah yeah it's surprising how many I mean I I'm 48 and the amount of times I'm in a in a room whether it's an NFU meeting or some kind of discussion group or something and I'll be the youngest person there you know it is quite stark when you go to events sometimes isn't it Tim it is and I should you know I personally I guess I do always caveat this with the you know I think perhaps we all know that sometimes the the younger ones are back on the farm doing the work yeah to speed and the older ones travel to the meetings or whatever yeah so you should always take it into salt but nevertheless it is true that and you don't general or relatively older industry okay Paul why do you think we've arrived at this situation is some it's some of the we've been talking about for a long time in the industry what how have we got here and are you optimistic that something can be done about it so I think it's a combination of factors that have compounded it well so we as as we've already alluded to there there's an aging workforce we simply don't have a talent pipeline I'm just bringing in new new instruments to replace the aging workforce the other one is it or in competition from other sectors it's a challenge not unique to food production of course and other industries have a similar challenge but we're competing for the same talent pipeline I think as well the landscape of food and farmer production has changed and and maybe we've not kept up with the skills that are required and education and careers advice as as overlooked the sector a lot we'll talk about that maybe a little later but we need to we need to sell the attractiveness of the sector and we need to do that through through through through the advisors that help help the young children decide upon their future but will I'm optimistic I'm very optimistic one reason why I'm optimistic is we did some research earlier in the year separate to this topic but related because we delivered a white paper to government with Harper Annans University and it told us that 42% of young adults would actually consider a career in food and farming but we know only 4% do so I'm optimistic because I know that's people are interested we just got to combat them yeah yeah are you optimistic as well too yes absolutely um so um what I guess I'd say on this one is that if you think about um um the the the way in which the industry agriculture industry in general has developed over the years there are perhaps fewer family businesses so maybe fewer people that are assimilating the skills if you like as as they grow up on farms and so therefore um I guess that's perhaps caught us out in general um and And so therefore we need to reach out to people who perhaps haven't grown up on a farm. I guess we need to understand that they won't necessarily arrive with the skills and the perhaps some of us are going to have to training them on the job so it's by picking or choosing those people who will have the aptitude and a bit and investing in them with the education and the training on the job whilst they're working for you. The age profile ones are really interesting ones isn't it because if you look back in history, there's a generation which is my sort of age and for those wondering that I'm not 21 I am coming up to 40 this year but when I was coming out of sort of school and making choices about university and what have you, I'm a bit of the lost area because I was 15 I think when for maths you know would have been in the industry had been after BSA. And so the average age is probably reflective of that you've got a gap, a generational gap of people my sort of age because I think when you do look around the room tim at some of those events and agricultural events what you do see is probably that gap because there seems to be a reasonable number of young people who are really enthused by agriculture now, but there may be not only a position or an age or experience to sort of be the leaders of the farm and that's probably one of the challenges that we're going to have going forward isn't it? Yeah, as you say that lots and lots of young people who are really keen, loads of new ideas and that's fantastic yeah yeah so a lot of very well there was a lot of young farms at the Royal Welsh show anyway they're really obvious at the moment because they all wear the shorts don't they so they stand out there were a lot of young people there and so yeah I know I'm not, no not for me, okay pull 65% of farmers in your survey said that better education and training is the most effective measure to attract more people in the industry what does better education and training mean in practice? The ideal scenario would be of course to embed food and farm in the curriculum to give young people hands-on experience as well as what they're learning and skilled as well. Creating clearer routes with the support of employers to recruit, train, develop and retain the workforce for the future would then come but we got this is hard, I've like a insight into this from a teaching perspective, numbers of my family are in there, you know that education and I know I can't just globally say just teach it in schools it's really easy to do that the complex to have curriculum delivery and the competing agendas within education means it needs more than us and me and the odd people to come together and just say we need the full value change to raise food and farmers a priority within education. Yeah yeah my my wife's a primary school governor and she'd agree with you yeah it's when schools are struggling to be able to afford to teach us it's difficult to see how they can get into the curriculum isn't it but yeah Tim I was quite surprised by that figure that there's 65% I would if you'd have asked me I'd get lower than that but were you surprised by it or was it yes and no I guess you know going back to my previous comments I guessed some farmers are really good at training people whilst they're on the job others perhaps expect candidates to arrive you know ready to go 100% so speak and perhaps we all need to get better at learning how to train and educate people on the job I mean it's not like you can just plug in the US B stick and people can download the schools they need like something like a film is it it is an ongoing professional development if you like. Yeah I think I think I was surprised about it because some years ago now I wrote something in farmers wiki about this and I got a lot of angry responses like people kind of saying well farm was kind of saying you know you can't make us learn so yeah I don't know I was just quite surprised by that food pleasantly surprised but anyway Paul how much of this is about inspiration and making young people aware of all the potential roles in the industry I think that plays a really big part all of us here on this podcast and I would expect the vast majority of our listeners know what great careers there are and can be had in the sector but if you're less connected to farming and food production and you might live in an urban environment you might even have STEM skills but you might not understand that agriculture has a place for those skills then they're lost potential recruits raising awareness showing young people the breadth of the careers in agriculture from technology to to fighting drones to develop it apps you know we need to really shock and surprise and excite individuals so yeah I do think inspiration is a massive part of the task in hand. Do you think that Clarkson's farm is going to make a difference because viewing wise farming is flying high you know you've got a lot of high tech going in there which in theory to me would switch on the younger generations it's getting a lot of air time a lot of publicity and there's a lot of shiny kit going on do you think that'll make a difference? Yeah I've kind of got a bit of an inside track on that as well because we were education sponsor at farm fest which was Jeremy and the team's venture into going out and seeing consumers in a sort of agriculture show perspective and now we enjoyed that and it was good to be there my experiences of my experiences of the impact of Clarkson's farm from my own family and from people who all of a sudden start to ask me about what I do people didn't know what I didn't what that really bothered in terms of mates and stuff now all of people don't have a port to don't worry about that. Big number one okay you've waited quite a long time for that Chris. But yeah the interesting in the surprise and the reality and the access and the honesty that the show has given means that there's a conversation going on now and there's definitely going to be a proportion of people converted into into moving into the sector I think I think it's been a force of good. Tim despite all the challenges in agriculture at the moment there are loads of exciting opportunities for young people in this industry what is your elevator pitch to the youths why should they think about agriculture as a career? So that's a that's a wide question isn't it but if you take a step back and think again at a higher level then lots of people are worried about what artificial intelligence means for them for their careers not just young people people who are perhaps already embarked on a career and they're wondering you know is their industry or their role in their industry going to be one which will be there in the future. If you think about you know agriculture we are you know the building blocks of the food industry in this country we have a large urban based population that bluntly is unable to fend for itself has to be fed demographic changes across the world are such that that will become increasingly so and so fundamentally the food industry has to exist and thrive if people are going to be fed and within that dairy specifically again the population I think is forecast to be 10 billion by 2050 we don't grow enough protein to feed all those people at the moment you know dairy is the best protein and that's leading to one side that all the micronutrients that we have trace elements of vitamins and things that that dairy contains that are essential for healthy life then I think we're fantastically positioned in general into the future as an industry and personally I'm really confident and that's why I believe it's a great one for people to think about entering. Yeah no I totally agree Paul as we mentioned early agriculture and food is competing against other industries and we talked about schools and university what age do we need to be engaging with young people is it is it sort of 15-16 year old or student so I think it's them will but it starts earlier I think we're I don't think you can begin too early and then you retain it through those ages you just talked about enthusiasm we must foster then in a secondary school colleges and universities me on it's encouraging us really at the minute I think what we're asking for does complement what the government is trying to do as well so Andy Burnham's focus on needs I think it does that mean not an employment education training. He's putting that pretty central to his policy, he's younger by the looks of it from the outside. And this technology is what we've known for a good long period of time, that we need people with the right skills, confidence and understanding. To be coming in with fresh ideas and a fresh understanding and that neat, neat, neat population is one to target. So he made it clear in that that we need to start earlier. So yeah, I think I think what we're asking for suggests earlier the better and then just keep the pathways clear to retain that and to use the hours on as children develop into young adults, develop into young farmers, develop into employees of the future. Yeah, okay. I was planning to expand its own efforts to engage young people and raise awareness of feed and farming careers and support greater understanding of the skills needed for the future feed system. Tell us more about how you'll be going about that and what kind of reach do you expect to achieve. Yeah, thanks. Well, and I'll start with an admission and a little bit of showing a vulnerability and guilty. When we first, when I first started getting involved in the survey, maybe three years ago, we kind of I was commentating on the numbers and then I realized that action really needs to be dialed up. So we're doing that now. So we do lots of stuff already as sort of our management around things like magic breakfast that she was learning at the start of a day, you get some milk, you understand where the milk come from. And we know our farmer is a brilliant on other ad hoc things like open farm Sunday, which is the fantastic leaf project and they always bring people into their young school visits into their own farms on an individual basis. But I'll point to two specifics we're doing. Well, which is a school outreach program, which is going to land this autumn. That is 100 schools. And they are kind of located close to our manufacturing sites across the UK, our production sites. We aim to connect with 100,000 young people then in the autumn to amaze, dazzle, surprise, shock and awe about the careers in food and farming. And then one of our production sites, Tall Valley, which is going to be our mozzarella facility of the future. We are welcoming into 60 newer apprenticeships over the next two years. Okay, that's pretty ambitious then. That is a big numbers. Yeah, we could do our bit and we are doing our bit. And as I say, I've converted that sort of guilt. I had around commentating other numbers with real action and and the team involved has been superb in the facility setting as doing that. And it's not the only stuff we're doing, you know, we go to events where a system specifically, so science, technology, engineering and maths is discussed where potential future careers are going to be. We've got new scientists live that we're going to in the autumn again. That will be our second year. So yeah, big ambition, but there's a big, there's a big problem I'm mandated to work in our farmers behalf and they're telling us now consistently, we've got to address this. So yeah, I've got to act. Yeah, I'm sorry. And this isn't just farmers, is it? Because it needs to be joined up approach with all parts of the supply chain as well as governments and NGOs to really have that big impact, doesn't it? It does. When our sector is at its best, it is when we come together. We have opportunities that exist. I've worked with Becky and Chris and others on this call and plenty of people, obviously, and the listeners who have joined up and tackled challenges that we've got as a sector together. And this is one, and I do believe we need to come together on it. And the value chain is acting upon it. It is happening. So Morrison's, for example, I applaud what they did and got us to sign up to willingly at the great Yorkshire show. They've got a plates program and I actually physically signed a table and this table is now going around the country inviting people to sit take a seat at the table with a few tours running full weeks in school next year and beyond around food and farming. And as you mentioned, you mentioned the government as well. I think the government is there's a lot to be applauded at the minute. The farming road map is good, but it kind of is only talking still to those people already in the sector. The new apprentice sheet schemes, again, good, but I'd like to see proper funding for that and proper access to one farm learning as well. And then, yeah, under Burnham's Year Tane practical courses definitely be see encouraged, but I'm not sure there's a food and farmer representation within that. I'm not sure if food and farming is covered within those courses yet. Yeah, okay. Tim, I sometimes wonder if traditional farming media and farming social media influencers and even Jeremy Clarkson who we talked about positively before are excessively negative when it comes to talking about agriculture because if I was a young person not from an agriculture background often when I looked at those things, I would think I'm not going into that industry because there's no money in it. And young people these days, you know, they everything costs such a lot of money. They're trying to go on the housing that everything they need to be well paid. I know that bad news sells, but do you think there's a danger that that kind of excessively negative focus on some of the difficulties in farming might put young people off coming in. Do we need to be more positive about what's good in farming? I think it's a difficult balance to strike, isn't it? Because, you know, we're britts aren't we? Yeah, we're not Americans. Yeah. And you know, the American church isn't land, does it? So there's a balance to be struck, isn't ever between talking or shouting about success and showing off. Perhaps some of those shows, you know, Clarkson clearly is successful and he's almost making a success out of the adversity. And what they've, you know, what that show, what he has done on that show is brilliant, I think, for the industry. I've had so many conversations started by other people, actually, about what we do on our farm because all of a sudden they understand a bit about it. So they are interested. So it is positive in and of itself. And there's also, you know, an element of we involved in the industry would understand some of the lobbying that goes on by the government. And clearly, if you're not in a challenging position, then it's all X, Y and Z, isn't it? So sometimes there's an element of that. I'm not sure that much about gets like beyond the industry, but yeah, no, we do need to be positive with the caveat that I just say, try not to come across American. Yeah, but there are real opportunities for really well-paid jobs and long-term careers though in the industry, aren't there? I just sometimes feel like we need to, I don't know, celebrate that more, not be ashamed of it. And again, if you go back to it, again, building on the point of maybe earlier, about to, you know, fewer family businesses, then there are less farms, larger farms in the industry in general. So that means that there's roles within those businesses that perhaps once would have been filled by family member. Yeah, that, over some, they are becoming available to external non-family members. And so because of the nature of the change in the industry, there is many more opportunities to some that perhaps used to be. And does you say well-paid roles? Okay. Paul, what would success look like in five years' time when it comes to skills and recruitment? If we have you back on the podcast in five years, what's he going to look like then? It would be great to be back and I'll have some better counter-points to Chris's attacks on me. I'll work on those. Thanks Will, will anybody who knows me, knows that I love data and that 82% figure is one that's stark. I would like to make that figure 82% of our farmer and is saying that they struggle to find people with the right skills. I'd like to bring that figure down so less farmer owners are finding it hard to recruit people with the right skills. I'd also, I think, mindful of 48%, I think it's been said already on the podcast of our farmer owners of 55. Then let's blend experience and use to bring that down a little bit because we don't want to use the experience that can be passed on, but we know we need to so energising younger individuals through the sector. Yeah, that food production start is a bit stark. 2018 at the average age of our colleagues on site was 40 and out to 46, so we'd like to move that down. Big one for me though is that 38% from our Harper Annons research of individuals who say they're interested but then they're lost. They don't end up taking a job there. If I was being then very specific about how we address it. where we can move those numbers through, how we move those numbers through, it would be in those stimulated jobs, I think. I think it would be showing that farming is changed, farming is dynamic, farming, farming, you can, you can create a modern future if you get involved in it through your skills within STEM. So unlocking knowledge and performance on things like animal welfare, sustainability, drone and satellite mapping, CO2 reductions, and personally, kind of a softer target. I would love to better to connect younger people, younger generation with food, where it comes from, how it's produced, the value of it, and how eating well is a foundation of a happy life. - Yeah, okay. And what's the risk if we don't get this right? I mean, Andy Burnham's talked about food security, being national security, and the government seem to be waking up to that after the droughts, I mean, we've just had. Now, what are the risks here? - Well, yeah, well, the risk would be, I do the survey in five years' time, it's not changed, and that's not good. The risk would be, if we're not able to recruit the right talent, we're putting our farmers through more and more pressure to deliver what the nation needs. Like a worker's across the supply chain, production, engineering, transport. It took their all required to put food in our shell, so there is real threat to national security if we don't get it right. At worst, it would mean farmers leaving the industry, and the knock on effect of that would not be good for our oil communities and again, national security. And I guess in a week, in a week where GCSE results have come out, and everybody's focused on the bright young things and where they might take their futures, how tragic it would be if a better proportion of those individuals that come through and end up delivering great careers for themselves and real value add to the food sector. So, yeah. How many of them say, I don't know, when you're on farm and you bumping into people or you're in our world where you talk to young people, either your own children or others, and people say, I just don't want an office job. And then they're just not supported to find a destination within food and farming. I think that would be a real tragedy if we don't get it right. Last question, then, to both of you. What message would you give to others in the industry? Well, that farm is all the wireless supply chain. To give them some hope in the situation will be better in future, Tim, you first. Yeah, so what I'd say is the fact that we're talking about it, all the facts that Paul's been through, the details of what is going on, the interest the public has in whether food comes from, as evidenced by the popularity of crooks and so on, et cetera, shows that there is a great understanding out there of what we do and interest in it. So therefore, the pull of potential recruits is perhaps as large as it's ever been. In the meantime, I think we have to learn to once we've got those recruits to give them the skills that they need, to invest in them as farming businesses or managers of farming businesses. And secondly, try to make your own farm as an attractive place for people to want to come to work at as possible. And in those two things, that's the way in which you'll achieve a success in the future. Okay, I knew, Paul. Oh, first I'd say thanks to all the farmers, dairy farmers, whoever you supply at the minute, for what you do, you're doing a great job feeding the nation such a healthy product. So firstly, there's hope in that. We see as exceptionally strong future for dairy globally. And that's where we're investing so much in the UK, so. So be hopeful and thank you for what you're doing already. For people who can support this skills shortage that we're calling an action for at the minute, I would say be hopeful as well. We know there is interest out there and people want great careers. So we need to just go and get them. I don't just keep school, like maybe I did it at the start. You know, we're now doing our bit. You know, we're delivering white papers to the government. We are setting up school outreach programs, establishing apprenticeships at site, just start, just get involved, just connect. Lots of our value chain partners are already doing so. And that's fantastic. I've already called a couple out here. I think there's really good signs from the government. My recent announcement, somewhere they're going to get young people into work is absolutely a sign of optimism as well. It's our opportunity then, was right in the thick of it and in the center of dairy to show that our industry has thriving heartbeat. It's an innovative place to work and that there is a modern and satisfying career to be hacked within our sector. Let's just go and shout about it. - Okay, that's all we have time for today. What a fantastic episode. And thank you to our guests, Paul Dover, Tim Dale and Chris Walkland and podcast producer, Becky Ray. Thank you very much for listening. Please see the show notes for more information, including our podcast disclaimer. We'll be back next week, but for now, it's goodbye from all of us here.