Ari Roisman - Founder, Engineer, Executive Coach

It's incredibly gratifying to be able to sit with a founder CEO for like an hour a week and have a massive impact It's like you see over a long time horizon how the biggest issues are getting resolved and how their company's growing It's so gratifying. It's what it fills me up You're listening to what fuels you where we deep dive with CEOs Entrepreneurs and business leaders to learn more about their stories and Uncover nuggets of wisdom we can all use. I'm your host Shauna Spurland CEO of Fuel Talent and award winning recruiting firm based in Seattle Today's guest on the what fuels you podcast is Ari Reisman Ari is an entrepreneur CEO and executive coach who helps ambitious founders push through barriers and build meaningful lives beyond success Over the past decade he's founded and led companies that have defined new categories from instant video messaging with glide to wearable tech with wrist cam Which partnered with Apple and landed on times 100 best inventions list He's been recognized by MIT technology review as one of 35 innovators under 35 and now channels his experience into coaching founders serving as form officer for the YPO entrepreneurship network and advising companies at the intersection of technology and human growth Welcome Ari so good to see you. It's great to be here. Just thanks for doing this. It's gonna be fun. I'm gonna start with some rapid fry. Are you ready? I hope so Okay, do you have a morning ritual? Yes, it's pretty boring, but it's actually really meaningful. I've realized how much it shapes my day We've got this multi-millennial old meditation practice with like a quorum of like of 10 folks So I mean, I try to it's I've noticed how big of an impact it has on the rest of my day whether or not I make it to to minion That's a big deal for me. I find that like starting my day just being surrounded by other people trying to get my intentions right for the day and It's like a big win for me I would be a big win for anyone. It's very grounding Okay, what is a favorite invention or something that you're just like I'm so glad that I have this that you've ever owned Oh wow, I mean, I love these air pods. I mean, I do too. Air pods are a great product. I mean the original iPod was a big deal for me I'm a huge music lover. Yeah, what kind of music? I'm all over the place. Yeah Layla have been into like some of this like ambient like electronic, but it's influenced by like classical music or jazz and like Yeah, I can send you some good. Yeah, send it to me. What's the app that you use the most on your phone? Layla, I've been using this thing called a whisper flow It's actually a keyboard that I think you install. It's also an app, but basically it allows you to use like AI enabled dictation in any app. Oh, in any app. It's in any app. So it's like it's a keyboard So like you you switch use like that little you hit that little like globe button and it switches your keyboard And then you start recording and then like wherever you are you could be in your email client you could be in your notes You could be a notion and then It's like super high quality dictation and it can adapt a bit to talk like you and if you say you know If you pause here you say you repeat something It'll just filter all that out. I'm into it. I'm downloading that right when we hang out. It works on yeah It's good. It's also good on the desktop. It's cool. And then I you know, I use notion that just try to manage everything Notion I feel like maybe I do need to hire you as my coach. We're gonna get into that But I always forget get little nuggets every time I talk to you. I'm like Areas full of wisdom. Um, okay. Is there aside from you know, wrapping to fill in in the morning ritual Is there a way that if you're just you know needing it? How do you like to recharge? I've gotten really into running in the last couple of years. I never really ran much With music or no music usually with music, but sometimes it is really nice to just listen to nature Yeah, it's uh, so I I just finished my third half marathon of the past year But I never ran and I never ran up until a couple of years ago I just signed up for like this local thing they have in the community. It's called the oive 5k And so I ran that and then I just and then I train I started training for half marathon Yeah for you Do you like to swim or bike because you could do a trough one now? I need to like hire a swimming coach and really step up my swimming game. It's actually a high priority because I love I love riding waves Like I tried to I'm not good, but I you know, I had a board needs to go surfing when I live in Palo Alto And I and I love yeah, I love cycling Yeah, that'd be fun. Okay, what's your favorite city? It depends on the mission, you know, I'm a I'm a big fan of I lived in Jerusalem for seven years There's a certain fire in that city. I there's also like a certain Like mystical air and quality of the city in northern Israel called svas So I you know, I love Israel. I'm like surprisingly a big fan of Cincinnati where I live now and I've been here for a couple of years I feel like this is low key a hidden jam and a really healthy city It's always fun to go to Miami. I love Miami and you haven't said New York City You know, New York is New York is great. It's super like I feel like I get a ton done and being in New York is always really charging But like New York is a city is like and it's easy to navigate, but I don't know and especially with like what's happening there politically I don't know. Yeah, it's I don't know Yeah, that's a whole that's a whole podcast in and of itself. Okay, three words. How many kids do you have again? You have four I've got four we got one cooking which will hopefully arrive next month fun in the event Mazel top that's exciting. Okay, so three words that you're Your existing kids the ones that you have now. How would they describe you use three words? Oh wow, I don't know. I'm not good at this bag my kid. How would it Hopefully well, I think they would call me Tati Do it use that word. I don't know. Hopefully fun and They would probably say you know interesting which is you know, which is a little bit loaded But I you know, I try to expose my kids to Interesting things that are that are maybe you know, not your typical Whatever typical stuff. Yeah, I wanted to say like I've not seen you with your kids But from the little I know of you I picture you being a like a teacher type of dad like I'm gonna be fun But I'm gonna be engaged in a way that you're like leaning in as kids to what dad has to say Yeah, I try to do that like my kids get these uh build boxes these crunch labs build boxes and they're like building engineering things every month and Yeah, there's just there's so much to learn There's so much to learn and so I try to express my parents did that with me I try to just expose my kids so you know like the wonder Yeah, of the world. I'm so excited to hear about your upbringing by one final rapid-fire question What's the qualities that you most admire in founders? Passion creativity and resilience Those are good ones Totally makes sense. Okay, walk me back early days. I know you don't want to talk about you but Little baby boy, Ari your parents are teaching you Wonder Where did you grow up? I don't usually readily like come out with this because it's such a it feels like such an obscure place. I don't really feel much connection to but I was bored and raised in a Wilmington, Delaware That's so random. I know it's so random Well kind of Cincinnati is too to be honest from like knowing you. I'm like I don't see it But I've never been to Cincinnati or Delaware Yeah, so like not a particularly exciting place and I and I grew up like hearing a lot of cracks at that like because I went to I went to high school in Philadelphia and so everyone was always being like there's a there's a scene in Wings world where like they're traveling around the country around the world and they get the Delaware and they're like Delaware. Yeah, exactly So yeah, that's where I grew up and my you know, my parents really valued my education So I think I you know, I grew up a bit spoiled. I went to like one of I think the early Montessori schools and then they sent me to Friend school Wilmington friends like the yeah, these are the you know friend schools have been around for hundreds of years It's the Quakers. I have these like fun memories of meeting for worship I think there's like a lot around Quaker philosophy, which is actually Um really relevant today and then my parents sent me to the closest Jewish day school Which is the school called a keba which doesn't really exist anymore in Philadelphia Yeah, so kind of far but so you were like I mean, I'm guessing you were a cool guy, but also kind of nerdy guy because you're the robotics champion I have in my head that that's like a nerdy thing, but maybe it's like where did you get I didn't even put that in my bio Where did you get a hard core? We're hard core. You're doing a research over there. Yeah Yeah, I don't know I always sort of straddle like The whole spectrum of kids in the class from the kids that were like super nerdy and like clearly on the spectrum in one way like all the way to like yeah like the super cool kids. I tried to I felt some connection with everyone as long as they were like people that you would just want to be around because they were somewhat enjoyable. I'm guessing that's your super ninja skill because I feel like I can pick up on that if someone's taught themselves how to be kind of engaging and good with people or if it's just like they're naturally that way and I'm guessing you've been this way your whole life. I love people. I find people I feel like people make the world go around I think there's nothing more fascinating or impactful or interesting or transcendent than people in all of creation and I've always has been drawn to people of all types yeah my mother definitely called that out like as a kid that she's like you know you've got this gift and you can just be friends with anyone. You do you really do. I was so drawn to and I was like but I found I was like around everybody was kind of drawn into you and it's it's definitely a skill and it's usually not combined with the person with your like academic background who's like mechanical engineering and chemical engineering and usually together and when they are it's like that's a unicorn situation it's pretty sweet. I just don't I don't think about it much like I just I love people and I don't I don't know why I mean I'm usually pretty comfortable in my own skin and so and I find I feel most alive and sort of in a flow state tend to lose track of time when I'm in deep conversation or in meaningful conversation with other people. I'm the same. You're also a people person. Oh yeah but I was like this my whole like it's just like I've always been just how are wired. Yeah I just wired that way and I get energy from it where people are like I'm like I have a high capacity for love and a high capacity for loving and touching a lot of people where most people just keep it very tight and very guarded. I'm like I could meet someone brand new and be like very into getting to know them and especially if they're a good person and good energy and anyway so when you work little what were you what did you value or did you have a sense of what you valued. I think I was always pretty curious. There was definitely expectations that I would do well in school so I you know I had to keep that in check and then you know we all have these things we just sort of get exposed to things or appearance not just in different directions and then which kind of lean in and that becomes a big part of our identity so I definitely was encouraged to learn and explore you know throughout some anecdotes I mean my I remember being on the internet on like on CompuServe and being on the internet like on a DOS prompt on a 14 for modem so I definitely had like early access to networked computing. My father was always kind of interested and early and that kind of stuff. My father's an engineer and then professionally somewhat followed his footsteps and then he got me a computer at my own computer I remember overclocking my computer I think in middle school or early in high school and then my parents got me I don't remember how it happened exactly but I remember getting a kit a radio controlled car kit when I was maybe nine or ten and like building a radio control car from scratch and then buying you know the upgraded motor and then tweaking it so it went like you know you're responsibly fast kind of a thing. And do you have siblings are they are they like also like you? I have an older brother he's ten years my senior so he wasn't around so much like when I was growing up and how you're raising your kids like boom boom boom keep going. I remember also like tinkering on these like these like electrical engineering toys where you put like different circuits and resistors together and then you can like make all these different things and different sounds and modulators so you know I tinkered enough that I appreciate I appreciate a tinkering and I went into engineering but the more exposure I get to like real world class tinkers and inventors I realized that like that's not really who I am compared to people that are like you know prolific inventors or people that are you know just love writing code and building things on much more of a people person and like yeah you know strategist and bringing people together and also you know this this kind of newfound love and appreciation for doing what you're doing now which is sitting with someone asking a lot of questions listening learning reflecting yeah so we'll get into all that. I want to get into it but who sparked your like entrepreneurial bug or do you remember we one of those kids that like I had a paper route and I had a lemonade stand or because you're kind of you know you tinkered in the entrepreneurial area pretty successfully not for everybody. It's a good question so my father got into MIT in 19 I think for the class that I think it was a class of 1965. My father passed away last summer and he and he didn't keep many things but he kept his MIT acceptance letter but he his father lost his job like right around that time and so they couldn't afford the tuition to go to MIT and so instead my father went to another incredible engineering school which if you live in New York you're probably like called Cooper Union which is free if you can get in and so my father that made a big impact on my father and my father worked hard and saved a lot of money and lived very modestly and the thing he valued the most was education and so he sent me to these like elite private schools a definitely grew up spoiled in terms of my education and then he he saved a lot of money so that I would be able to go that was his thing is like you'll be able to you can go to the school of your choice you know if you the best school you can get into like I want you to go and get the best education you can and so my father lost his job like right he'd worked for this company for like 30 years and they were struggling publicly is a they're publicly traded company and so they went through some downsizing coincidentally actually got rehired at that same company about the new CEO he challenged them I think in that they were they like weren't approaching the internet like with the with the with the level of rigor and seriousness that they needed to and so they like he challenged the CEO I think and then kind of got sideline and then we had yeah anyway so he so that had a huge impact on me seeing my father dedicate you know as far back as I remember he worked for this company worked for other company 30 years and new management comes in or the stuff and then he just like in your out he gets canned and so that had a huge impact on me I was super fortunate and appreciative that you know my parents had really prioritized education and put all this money away said I was able to go to you know an expensive private university but what I it just built it's heated this very deep distrust in like yeah and putting my feet in the hands of anyone else and so I think just the moment that happened it like planted something inside of me was like I can't trust any big corporate juggernaut to like to feed me you know I need to be able to be I need to be able to carve my own path and like do and do my own thing and so that's pretty much what I've always done and sometimes it's really stressful and and does not work out as as as plan but I it's very much like in my wiring and I've been doing it now right for like a couple decades and so yeah you've got the bug and now you're like it's unstoppable did you like I mean Washington University such a great school we've got some friends with kids there now that are super happy who put that idea in your mind to apply there and was that the right choice for you went there for undergrad and got a master's there yeah I love I love washio it's a beautiful campus and it's this unique somewhat unique I think it's like it feels like a very suburban pristine picturesque campus but it's also and it's across this street I think from the biggest park like in a city and in a in a country it's called Forest Park but it's also like in a city so it's like close to a bunch of stuff so it felt like the right next I really I wanted to go to Stanford or Berkeley and my parents were like super clear that like you can't go so far away I grind up and then around Philly they're like you can't cross the Mississippi so like washio is literally just across the Mississippi I heard there was someone at my high school that went to washio they were like washio has been really good at like marketing I think for a while they they so I don't know it would and they had a pretty active Jewish life I was like specifically looking for a university that had a kosher meal plan which kind of trimmed things down yeah that would have been Berkeley right so and I didn't the IVs didn't appeal to me because I was like always I don't know it felt like too cliche and like I've always been I guess like a bit of an independent thinker so I went to go visit washio my junior year and had a really magical experience and met this incredible group of friends that were or juniors at the time and then. or Sagas, or Sophomores. And then I chose to go back and visit again early in my senior year and again, fell in love, fell in with this whole crew. And then I just applied early and got it. - Yeah, good for you. - Yeah, so that was easy. - And what was your graduate research focused on and how has that kind of woven through your career or stuck with you since then? - Yeah, it's a funny story. I came in as an electrical engineer. I thought, but then the electrical engineers were moving a pixel around on a screen. And then the mechanical engineers were modding RC cars. And so I quickly shifted gears. And I was really into, I still am like fascinated with aviation. I studied a rotary theory from the former president of the American helicopter society and took like aerospace classes with guys from Lockheed and that kind of thing. But then my undergraduate advisor was always into combustion. And so at some point there was like, they started a new department and it was called energy still around. Energy environmental and chemical engineering. And he basically jumped ship into this new department. And I started doing some work for him. It's a long story. To make a long story short, he had a nanotech company that he spun out the university that invented this much better way of making tantalum, which is actually the key. Tantalum is an element. It's the key ingredient in capacitors, the best capacitors, which are, - Oh my God, you're so tripping me out right now. I'm like, capacitors are like a huge part of any circuit board. So he raised some venture company who sort of was not working out. And I had this incredible opportunity to help him figure out this technology and make it scale it and commercialize it. And so that was my first job, which went really well, surprising. - Wow. - And so, and then we got the company acquired by the world's largest materials manufacturer. - Wow. And how old are you at this point? You're like 21, 22 years old. - Yeah. So that made me a bit fearless in terms of what. - Yeah, you're untouchable. You're like, look at me, I got this. - So I kinda probably got myself in a little over my head in terms of where that eventually unfolded. Everything that I feel like is meaningful in life, it's sort of like, it always comes when you don't expect it. - Yeah. - It's like, I have this buddy who's a musician and he has this song about like, you gotta be like H2O and go with the flow. You know, like there's, it's so easy to be overly deterministic and rigid in terms of what you expect is gonna happen. I'm definitely like, I'm not a, you know, you always need, you need an any organization. You need like the, the implementer, the integrator, the execution, make sure the trains are running on time, like operational excellence and good systems. Like, I'm not that guy. I love having that guy or gal. - You're the visionary. - Yeah. So, something like that. So, but I think, I see it with like friends of mine that are, you know, wired in that sort of COO disposition. It's like, you know, there's maybe a tendency more towards like being a bit anxious or being nervous. It's hard to just kind of go with the flow. But when I think the reality is, is like the magic is always in the serendipity or the cross-pollination or the thing that, you know, you miss the turn or you miss the flight. And that's where all the real magic is. And so, you know, that's sort of how I, that's how my life is unfolded and continues to unfold. But, you know, it's the answer question. I wasn't thinking about, you know, combustion. It turns out my father happens to be a chemical engineer. So, I had some exposure. He didn't do anything in combustion. But I just ended up as a mechanical engineer, like, you know, in having this guy as my advisor. And he was into combustion. He's actually one of the country's experts in combustion. And, and then I ended up in his lab and had this opportunity. And that's kind of, yeah, it worked out. So the startup gets acquired and you're working now. And then how did you transition through all these other jobs? Because when you've got a good thing going and you're having early success, what's your, what's your kind of quiet moments on the pillow? Like you're just relaxing and thinking, what do I want to do with myself? What were you, what was your head at that point? When you're coming of age, right? There's always like the next major milestone. It's like, you know, I remember, gosh, there's parts. I wanted to drop out of, you know, undergrad, you know, I, I, I, you're parents with a freak down. Right. They would have, so what did I do? I applied to the Technian, which is like Israel's MIT. And then I just got in and then I took a leave absence of wash you and then negotiated getting the transfers, the credits transferred in. And I took all my coursework in Hebrew. And that's how I learned fluent Hebrew. I just enrolled in the Technian for a semester. All I'm thinking about is just like, there's the next milestone. Right. So it was like, first was like graduate college. You know, it's that, that's it. You know, we're on this podcast. I don't know who's listening. I maybe like, right? I, I've done some stuff that, that reads impressive on paper. The reality is when I went to Israel and I took my, I did, I transferred my credits in. Like, I only, I failed one of the four classes I enrolled in. I only passed three. I wasn't carrying a heavy, super heavy course load because engineering school was like really hard. And I was also interested in some other stuff and taking some other classes. And so I, I walked at my graduation, but everyone else graduated in May. And I was short, like a creditor to. And so I actually ended up having to like, take these classes and in the summer. So I was like, offset from everybody else in terms of being able to finish up. And I was, to me, it was like, I was a failure at the time. I was like, I couldn't even, I couldn't even graduate in time. It was like, because I, you know, I, well, it seemed, it seemed to work out. I'm saying, so what's that? Things just work out. So I ended up working in this, in my, in my advisors lab, that summer, and then that turned into my dream job. Which was this, you know, this incredible experience getting this company acquired. You know, it was like, and then I went back to graduate school and basically kickstarted this lab in graduate school. So the graduate research was around, it's oxy combustion. So I basically, I studied flame stability in oxy combustion, specifically in a cleaner way of burning coal, where you can recycle the flu gas and then very efficiently capture all the CO2 and then in a very energy efficient way. You like filter out all the bad stuff and then pump all the CO2 underground. So you can actually run a carbon neutral, oh, wow. Cold-driven power generation process. Is that still happening there? Right. So it's crazy. I didn't, you know, I did my research and then I basically, I was, you know, hard tech. I would put that in the category of hard tech. Like typically when you get a job working for these one-a-days companies, you're like a little tiny cog in like one wheel of like a massive thing. And you're just working on like, if you got a job, I didn't want to do this. I got to turn off this. You got a job working for Boeing or Lockheed. You're like, you're in charge of like, you know, this, you know, latching mechanism or like this. Right. Accuator on like this part of this part of the wing or that like, or the ill-run or something. So that would never fly, no pun intended, but never fly with your personality. It's like an Amazon job where you're like, I couldn't. I'm just going to try to do that red button moving from the left side for the whole year. You're going to try to move it to the right. It's a whole thing. I know. So what did I do? When I finished graduate school, I was like, all right. I mean, I, I mean, sure, I was started my first company graduate school. I started doing engineering consulting and I did a couple of projects as I was finishing on my masters. And then I basically was like, all right, I'm done with this. You know, like, I'm going to go and I deliberately basically got into software. So I was like, software is eating the world. And many ways I felt like I'd miss the boat. Like I didn't see the science. And what was that about? Yeah. So I started a company originally called Glide and raised like $40, $50 million per revenue. Yeah. That was the video app, social video app. Right. So we pioneered push to talk video. So we had like a hot video walkie talkie video messaging app that was like hot, you know, 10 years ago type of thing. Yeah. So selling into consumers, like you're trying to problem solve. It was like we invented a new way to communicate. It's actually still super innovative. Like it's literally it's a walkie talkie about with video. So you tap a button and then immediately I'm sending. I'm not just sent. It's not just like recording locally on my phone. It's streaming live. The moment I press record, you would get a put. You got to push notification. You can watch that live. It's sort of the cloud. You can watch it later, it works in groups pretty like way ahead of its time. Where's the company now? I know you were there for a long time. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, founder the company led it for 11 years. That went well, that first product. And then I moved to we acquired a company. We raised a big round. I moved to I was traveling a lot to the Bay Area. Eventually I just moved to Palo Alto. This is right when the Apple Watch is coming out. I saw what happened with the iPhone and how it just totally changed personal computing and how we interact with software. And I saw the Apple Watch is being like the next wave and like the natural evolution of personal computing. You have a screen that you're literally wearing. And the watch is a form factor that's been proven out over centuries. So made a lot of sense to me. Turns out we were like probably way too early, way too optimistic in terms of our thinking of how quickly like watch adoption would happen. And then how to the extent to which like the third party app ecosystem would also develop on the watch. It looks super promising. We worked really closely with Apple. And so basically I met one of the original program managers from the Apple Watch team got introduced through a friend. And we had this like magical first meeting and he decided to quit Apple on the spot. And that's when you guys co-founded risk cam, right? And then exactly. And we made this product originally. It was called camera CMRA. And then yeah, and then we brought that to market as risk cam. We pre-sold a bunch of them. We worked really closely with Apple to this day. And I think we're the only we're the only camera for the Apple Watch. We're the only like official Apple certified smart accessory for the Apple Watch. It's like officially made for Apple Watch. The whole plan was to go into Apple retail. But then the pandemic hit. And so physical distribution of like of products especially third party products through Apple retail. Yeah. You know, went to know. But I'm proud of the product. I first of all, I'm proud that we actually followed through and delivered a product like absolutely. But you but also glide is like crazy that the numbers that you hit with glide. I mean, that Apple loan. Like I'm just reading these numbers attracted 20 million users was featured by Apple and Google. Rapid, rapid growth. It was a hot we caught lightning in a bottle. You know, we focused a lot on having a viral K factor. We probably were like too aggressive in terms of really engineering for that. I had an incredible team amazing co founders. Yeah, it was really it was crazy. When I looked back at it, I didn't realize how unusual was the time that we went from an idea just literally an idea and me teaming up with like a childhood friend to two and a half years later. You know, 50 million raised pre revenue. We acquired another company. We're close to 100 people. We're basically the hottest company in Jerusalem. One of the hottest companies in Israel, the mayor of the cities moving us into the office. Yeah, we're traveling the world on stage at the biggest tech conferences. And we were like we were finally so tech crunch disrupt. You know, we're in and out of all these, you know, big VCs. There's actually a lot of there's like an uncanny amount of commonality between what my real life experience was and the first two seasons of Silicon Valley. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah, you're like I identify with those guys. So I know that in your coaching and that in the work that you do, you talk a lot about like staying close to the to your why. What was your why for both of these companies? Because they're they're both so relevant and so needed and useful. But have you used anecdotal stories or like wisdom you've caught from those experiences in your coaching? I'm guessing because you've got real hands-on operating experience. Yeah, I mean, it's just so embedded, right? I mean, this is this is my life for over a decade is bringing these two really ambitious consumer products to life and then to market. And you know, we had real success with both products. Yeah. You know, getting like a really great financial outcome for all of your, you know, investors with the way kind of VC mechanics work is is another story. But to answer your first question, the company actually is still moving driven like that. I passed the baton to the CEO of this incredible Israeli company that we acquired that are just real gurus and all things streaming video. And so they've really shifted focus into basically computer vision and AI. There's really no one that's built like a computer vision video centric engine to to tap into all the power of AI. It's all like based on static images. So they're they're doing their thing. The companies now called endless AI, you know, shout out to the team there like I'm impressed that they've they've had the tenacity and persistence and the creativity. Yeah. To just keep and the passion to keep going for it. I mean, after two products and parting ways with my original co-founders on good terms, but it was just time and then bring like another product to market. Like I was just I was it was time for me to move on. Like it really took a toll those last few years. I really lost. I just lost my own like personal sense of self and value. And I was just like I was just burnt out. It was just the why the why I really only realized like the depth of the why maybe post facto, but the why you know, the why was all about connecting people. You think about it. What do we do now? How do we keep up with people? Like most of the interactions we have with most people throughout the day are through asynchronous communication. We're texting. Sometimes we call. Now we also do a lot of video. But back in the day, like when we launched Glide, you know, Zoom didn't exist. It was Skype. And it was like if you wanted to connect with someone face to face over the internet, it was like setting a call at a desktop. It was very limiting. And so we wanted to basically tap into the the magic of the cell facing camera and and collapse time and space literally bend time and space transcend space and time and allow people to connect face to face at their convenience. And that's really what instant video messaging does. It's it's real time like a call, but it's also asynchronous. And then with risk cam, it was all about now instead of the camera living in your pocket where there's so much friction, you have to pull it out, unlock the phone and get the thing. And then if you want to record a video and send it to someone, you have to record it first and it's to upload. And then you send it, oh, there's minutes from when you are enjoying that moment. There's something that you want to share or something you want to say until they did that came and watch it. And so you can never have real time dialogue. Now, and that's what we did. We powered live video. It's like straight out of science fiction or Dick Tracy or Blade Runner, like literally, you know, tap and talk video communication from the wrist. That's why we built risk cam. We turned the one thing the Apple watch is still missing as a camera. But it can't do that. Yeah, it's going to say no, we that's what we do. We still do that. If you have a risk cam, you know, it's now, you know, that the camera technology optics are, you know, three, four years old, but it's still a product that like you hook up your Apple watch, especially good in the Apple watch ultra and like you can, and if the, I mean, the other person on the other side because, you know, we don't, there's no public, there's open API for FaceTime. So we had to build our own everything from scratch or own video communication protocol, our own apps or own APIs. But we've used, if you had our apps set up on another watch or another phone and even on desktop or even on Android, we always had that working behind the scenes, you can talk live. That's crazy. Yeah, it was like, but it was way ahead of its time. Yeah, it's time. It's time. It's time. It is ahead of its time. What are some of the hard lessons that you can share about, you know, these outcomes? It sounds like it's not the, the financial crazy outcome that a lot of startups are expecting, but that also doesn't sound like that was your number one driver. The capital we raised in Glide initially, it was all pre-revenue. It was all about having a transcendent product experience and being, you know, that one company every few years that comes along and does something really unusual and spectacular and builds crazy network effects and then takes the world by storm. But it happens very rarely. You know, it's like the last ones to really do it were, you know, Zoom and Snapchat and WhatsApp. You know, so that was the bet, right? So we made it pretty far. We didn't, you know, we had our moment. We didn't, we didn't endure. I think we could have. And I definitely think we could have, but it's hard, you know, as things scale like a harder and harder. It's so easy to lose yourself. One thing one of my co-founders did like throughout, he was always still tinkering. He was like, you know, coming up with a narrative for like a comic book, a mashup between like Batman and Superman. He doesn't goofy dorky things, but like he was doing stuff and he, you know, put together this comic book. I was like totally swept away with the company and like sort of stopped intentionally investing in myself and taking care of myself, you know, I just wasn't, I wasn't taking care of myself. I was traveling and, you know, as the founder CEO, it's your job to raise the capo's always traveling. And it's lonely. But I know you've gotten a lot of benefit out of YPO and just specifically, I'm sure you're your forum experience, which for those listening, R&I met through YPO. which is an organization that's international. And one of the benefits is that you get to be in kind of a peer group of eight to ten people that you meet with monthly and have a very confidential shared experience around what's going on in your life on a personal and professional level. Did that kind of help save you the YPO experience? And like I got to talk to someone about kind of where my where my head is right now. Yes, I got my first exposure to forum first in EO and then I joined YPO for those of you not familiar. You know, many founder CEOs, you know, folks in sort of inherently lonely, ambitious leadership positions get together often monthly in a confidential peer group. Six to ten people, everyone's really sworn to confidentiality and you can bring your top five percent, your bottom five percent, the stuff that you can't really bring anywhere else. You know, I think of it like a pressure release valve, but it's also a real source of wisdom and experience shares from people that get it and have been through a lot. Yeah, so getting up and running and a forum was really profound and it taught me a real nuanced communication skill around, you know, not jumping to giving people direct advice instead of telling people what they should do speaking from my experiences. And like here's what worked for me, which is such a valuable like new on skill that I didn't really have before then. And you know, I sort of sensed as I was in it doing all this stuff that it would be really helpful to have some sort of a confidant and a coach. I asked around, or when I first got to Palo Alto, I asked the super successful startup attorney who like literally lives right next to order now Lorraine jobs and across the street from Larry Page. Super well connected. I asked him, you know, like, do you know someone that could coach me? I, you know, I'd always I'd known about Andy Grove, you know, and Bill Campbell. Yeah, so Bill Campbell was still alive when I first showed up in Silicon Valley and I and I he was a friend of my a corporate attorneys. I tried to get in with Bill Campbell, you know, and he was just like, he was, this was like a year or two before he passed. And so he wasn't taking on new clients. But I tried, basically I tried, but this attorney, I asked, he was like, no, that doesn't exist. He's like coaches don't exist. You have to say 10 years ago in startup land, they were like so few books. Guy Kawasaki wrote a book called The Art of Start. There was a Brad Feldon wrote a book called Venture Deals, which teaches you how to build right. But other than that, there was in there's classics ones like good to great, but like in turn to like the grind and specifically how the world of startups works. There was very few books. Right. Well, then also you've got the like, I can't really go to my board. I can't really go to my account. Right. So you need, right. So I just, I knew I needed something. I put out sort of some feelers. And I didn't, nothing really came back, you know, and then I can remember connecting with some random guy. I didn't really click. And so I never gave myself the gift of coaching. I had informal things with, you know, former founders that had become investors or folks that were like angel investors and that, you know, we're post exit that that were sort of in my corner. They wrote checks, but I never had something formal or something where I was really like created a framework. And I had real accountability. And so at the very end, this is months before I decided to resign. I was like, I was really burnt out. And I was just, and I was going through a tough time. I was really out of touch with my own kind of inner greatness. And I finally engaged a coach. And it was so impactful. It was so, so helpful. It just, it created this, this really loving, nurturing space where I was able to think through with clarity. You know, what's the next move? Do I stay with this and double down? Do I just let go? Is there a way to, you know, gracefully move on past the baton? And I came to the conclusion it was time to move on. I was able to gracefully on good terms, resign, step down. And the company had the company keep going, you know, I put, I put together some capital. So the company had some funding. And then I was able to move on. And it was like, I got, it was like a new lease on life. Right. Because now you're able to take all that wisdom and implement it in ways where you can really be at the highest level in an advisory capacity and a coach yourself. I mean, you're coaching tons of founders. I work with a handful of folks, but there's folks now have been working with, you know, I only work with founders, really only founder CEOs that have been, they're at, you know, a meaningful enough scale. And I've like been in it for long enough that like, you know, that whole wide-eyed, bushy tailed, like, you know, drive, there's, I, like, I talk to these young founders that are doing it for the first time. It's like, there's almost like no one to talk. It's like, they're just not, they haven't really hit turbulence yet, which is inevitable, you know? Ben Horowitz has this famous essay called The Struggle. And it's like until you go through this struggle, you're not really, you're not really a founder, you know? It's like, there's, you have to go through this dark night of the soul to really emerge. And so, yeah, I sat in that for years, years. And it took a toll. And it was so gratifying to be able to channel that into having this meaningful, high leverage role as a confidant. You know, the core of what I try to do is this classic coaching. I even went through this whole formal coaching certification course and I'll soon be, you know, formally certified by the International Coaching Federation or whatever. Like, I got that training. There's a magic and coaching done right where you're really holding this open-ended, loving space. You're deliberately exercising restraint to not be directive. At the same time, you know, founders are super busy and they want battle-hearted insight instinct. Yeah. I mean, in my white-yout groups, I'm like, this, here's the deal. I don't want your non-gistile-like-shared experience. I want you to tell me what the F2-2 right now. And I think that's also okay, because there's wisdom. There's a reason, and they're paying you, right? They're like, I need you to tell me what to do in this environment. But I have a lot of questions. I'm going to hit you with them fast because there's so much to cover here. So there's a lot of coaches out there, right? So I know that you've got your filter that you're looking at when you're thinking about who's right for you to coach. But what should a person be looking at when they're thinking about who's the right coach for them? Because for example, there's people who need coaching through a career transition. Are there's people who need coaching through how to set up systems and process and how to get to that next level or how to have difficult conversations with the executive team or the board? Is there a certain like methodology of what you specifically are good for? If somebody's listening and they need a coach and they're a founder? Yeah. I mean, I think, I think in general, like, this is to, like, we always want to, we always want to work with people that have done it before and have been through it before. So I think experience is a big deal, especially in coaching. Look, you could argue the other way and that just coaching is its own kind of magical thing and that if you're really good at coaching, then you can support people. I think there's truth to that, but I also think that there's no substitute for the actual experience of having like been in the arena and, you know, have done the thing. And I did like, you know, multiple products, you know, different sets of co-founders, software, hardware, recapitalization, settling, loss. Also, global experience too. I mean, all of it. Traveling the globe, dealing with investors from, you know, Tokyo to Beijing to. Yeah, you fundraised, you've done all of it. Yeah, so, you know, I think for founders that are in it and working on something ambitious and are feeling, feeling the feels, experience founders that also have a love and a passion for coaching are probably in the best, best suited to, you know, most meaningfully support you and your journey. The coaching is super high leverage, right? And so it's, it's incredibly gratifying to be able to sit with a founder CEO for like an hour a week. Sometimes it's, it means two hours. Sometimes it's every other week for an hour and a half. Whatever that is and have a massive impact. It's like you see over a long time horizon how the biggest issues are getting resolved and how their company's growing and how they're, you know, they're getting along better at home. And like, it's so gratifying. And so I carve out time to do that. It fills me up. Yeah, I love it. And so I, you know, I could, you know, I do that with a handful of folks. I could probably do that with another one or two folks. Eventually, some of the folks I work with will phase out. I'll have like a slaughter to open. Yeah. What types of patterns are you most often seeing or recognizing as like, oh, this is like a thing that's happening right now. Is it burnout? Is it fear, fear around AI? Like, what are you seeing? First of all, just there's so much value for anyone, especially it's compounded when you're, when you're doing something really ambitious. There's so much value and having a reference point. So I'm just going to give two examples. In Einsteinian relativity, the actual speed of something, right? That's what special relativity is all about. It's true speed or orientation is only understood in relation to a reference point. You need that outside perspective. Same thing, like a body of mine for his very close friend of mine, for his 50th birthday, ran like a little symposium and there was required reading material. So one was special relativity, and another one was Heschel's the Sabbath, where he just sort of speaks to the beauty of having a day off. But what came out, this is what he was pushing, where it's like, they're both these reference points. They create sort of an objective outside perspective. You think about a cube. There's six sides to a cube, but it's the space inside the cube that allows the cube to have that definitive structure and not collapse into a sphere. So having a reference point creates like definition and it creates an accountability framework. So I know myself, if there's anything that's of any value or difficulty that I want to accomplish, I need accountability. So that could be signing up to run a race. It could be having a personal trainer. You know, I do both those things. It could be working with a coach. I also, I still work with a coach. I love coaching. So I think that, you know, those are some of just the basics, you know, in terms of the inherent value. So the types of things that are coming up, it's amazing how lost or confused we get as people in isolation without that reference point. So just having a framework where I'm holding myself accountable to showing up consistently and talking through all of the things. And now it's so much power like I, I mean, obviously with the permission of the founders I'm working with, you know, I record my sessions in notion. It's obviously all confidential. But then like, there's a transcript and I can query against that on top of the notes that I'm taking. And so it's really, it's, it's like almost like AI enabled or AI powered coaching in terms of like keeping track of the to-do's or looking for themes. I think we're living in a more unpredictable fast changing environment than, then certainly anytime I've been alive. And I think probably any time in the last couple few generations, arguably since the Industrial Revolution, arguably more so than the Industrial Revolution, you know, we're living in a time where like, you know, self-driving cars, networked transportation, humanoid robots, you know, AI agents are all very real things that are already disrupting global commerce. You know, so it's like, >> So does it make it so your founders are getting like distracted? And does the notion, when you're taking notes and you're comparing them and you're looking, are you seeing themes of people being like, squirrel? Like, maybe I should go in that direction and you're like, whoa. >> It's definitely, yeah. >> Like, stay focused. >> It's definitely, there's definitely, it's easy to get distracted. And I think it's also, it's, it's, it's, if your eyes are wide open, it's impossible to ignore how fundamentally things are changing and the, the, the need to be aware and consider, do I adjust how we get this thing done? Do I need to, you know, put this tool in place? Do I need to approach, you know, how we solve this problem or how we manage this discipline differently? So I think that makes the importance and the value of having an attentive, listening, competent, well-informed, experienced ear in your corner, that much more pronounced. >> Yeah. And are you coming at this? Because my sense of you, and we've had, you know, our interactions is that you're, you're obviously deeply spiritual and connected to your, to just like the world and obviously your Judaism, but most of us are kind of hardwired to be focused on achievement and that if you're coaching that there's got to be some measurement of like, am I improving or where, where am I going and is that successful? Or are you doing some sort of combination of like fulfillment and peace and balance? Or is that like outside of anybody's pay grade to try to help a founder on that too? Because they've got to answer to their board and their ventrophone and return profits. >> Yeah. To me, it's like, I'm at the end of the day, at the beginning of the day, I'm working with a person, you know, and my worldview is like any person, it's like, it's a soul, which is something that we can't really quite put our finger on. It's something, you know, beyond. It's a soul and a body. So you're dealing with, you know, like, like a very powerful, you know, in some ways like supernatural being that has needs, you know, spiritual needs, aspirations. And so, you know, our output is only a function, and ultimately, we can't control outputs. It's a function of the input and the consistency and how, you know, what we can put in. And so, you know, you know, we're all people. You know, we're not dealing with deterministic robots. And so, all sorts of stuff, personal stuff, nothing's really ever off limits. You know, I think that's the job of a good coach and confidant is to always accept whoever it is that you're sitting with, like, with a loving embrace and really listen. And we talk about, and coaching, we talk about, you know, different layers of agenda. There's a revealed agenda, and then there's a hidden agenda, and then there's this transcendent agenda, this transformational agenda, which is maybe unknown to both client and coach, especially at the outside of a relationship, but often emerges if you stick with it. That's so cool. You're making me curious about it, because I've never worked with a coach. So if you've taken some of that coaching and then also been, like, okay, how do I offer this to more people given that I am so passionate about connecting people, you've got these, I don't even know, communities that you've gotten that you've led, formative. I want to hear more about that. And then also post exit founders community. Like, are you just trying to make sure that people can learn from one another? And where do you fall into that? Is that, is that create revenue or just connection for you? Yeah, it's, I don't know. It's not, it's not so, like, neat and tidy. So the first company I started, I, I, it's probably very, I needed to take some time. I realized that, but I think most founders, you know, that are, have had some sort of an exit and been doing a company for a while. It's a big part of their identity. More often than not. And I advise against this, I made this mistake. They sort of, they quickly rebound into their next company. It's so important to take some time. But I just, I got into this thing called ODF on deck founders, like, right after I moved on from a last company. And I had this incredible, like, serendipitous moment where basically I was all passionate about trying to stand up more of these peer groups and make these more accessible to more types of people. And I, a, a good friend from college was thinking the same thing and we reconnected and we just got to work, spun up this company figured I was like, didn't want to raise venture, you know, I was like, been there, done that. I wanted to do this in my own figure. Be like, bootstrap this thing to heavy profits. We actually bootstrapped it and attracted some really cool clients. And we're standing up groups and facilitating groups for founders and stuff. But it's really difficult to bootstrap something to like really, really meaningful profits in a really short time frame, which was sort of the the success metric we, we set for ourselves. And then he got tapped to go, I couldn't make this up. It's crazy. He got tapped to go run ops and lead an AI infrastructure company that was seeded with a billion dollars, I think from one of the founders of Ripple. So like, I couldn't compete with that. So he's like, but he, so what I did is I channeled my passion and energy and fascination in peer groups really primarily into YPO. So I stepped up to be the forum officer of our YPO chapter. And then I did that for a year. And then just very recently, I stepped up to be the forum officer for the entrepreneurship network for all of YPO globally. I didn't even know that was a thing because I'm an EO and YPO, but I love that because you know, YPO is not just founders. It's like people who are hired guns or people who are third-fourth generation. It's really cool. So it's basically a third, a third of YPO are founders. And so this is like our tribe. That's interesting. Yeah. And so we set up, we set up forms. Usually I'm happy to get you set up with one, but like we set up forms, just for the founders and entrepreneurs within YPO. So we're, you know, right now it's more like operational and I have like professional YPO staff to help me implement my ideas in terms of just like quickly scaling and getting a lot more forms up and running. I'm helping a little bit with post exit founders, PEF, do something similar. And you know, I get approached by a conversation with somebody else last week that wants to stand up more groups. Right now, I'm just sort of doing it more casually, but I'm just, and also, you know, in these volunteer roles within these, you know, CEO communities. I do have this like itch. So I, I, I, I'm a huge believer in coaching, but coaching doesn't really scale. - It's hard to scale. - In some way. But I do, I have this vision. I feel like the world would be such a better, healthier place if everyone had their confidential space with their peers. - Oh, totally. - Where they share, they're on like a shared journey, they have a shared ambition. So I have this whole thrust and energy and vision around that, but I'm like channeling that right now and these other roles and not pursuing it out on. - Yeah, but you've also got your, and your abundance fair time 'cause you're also building a whole energy company with what's happening with that. - Yeah, so I'm poaching. I work with this family office and I'm helping them look for opportunities. You have anyone has like a company and like the, and then, in the nutraceutical space, we're just in sort of general. - What nutraceuticals mean? Oh, nutrition and pharmacist also combined. - Yeah, like just anything you put in your body that's like really healthy for you and helps you perform better. Yeah, we're probably looking for a company that's young and is profitable, where maybe the founder wants some liquidity, he's been at it for a while, and then we can partner and take things to the next level. We've got a vision and sort of a brand strategy that we would layer on top of that. - How big does the company have to be that you would look at? - Yeah, I mean, probably the ticket size is like for the acquisition to be like 10 to 20 million. So I imagine it's doing like, you know, probably single digit millions and recurring cash flow, you know? So that's one thing that's like more part time, but it's a lot of fun to kind of have this open-ended mandate with like a really interesting, successful company builder founder, but yeah, but, it's funny, I was never expecting this, but basically my graduate school research, I basically started a lab. After we got this nanotech company acquired, I basically kickstarted this energy lab at WashU and that research and that lab that I built like became the largest lab at the university. And my now very good friend and academic advisor raised 10 million dollars. I mean, they won 10 million dollars of grants, primarily from the department of energy around a way of generating power through a pressurized combustion process. You think about all the engines that make our world go around, like whether it's on a plane or it's on a car or like a generator, they all operate under pressure. So there's like really, like that's the way good engines are built. They run under pressure. Power plants were never built to operate under pressure. Turns out if you run, if you look at a power plant as an engine, which is essentially what it is, and you operate that under pressure, there is like dramatic benefits and how efficient it is, how you can bifurcate the stuff that's coming out of that, I.e. capture pollutants, capture the CO2. And so basically my graduate research has slowly evolved into being now this multi-patented technology that's already proven at a pretty decent scale. And it's basically like the power plant of the future. It's like a pressurized power plant that instead of building the power plant, like on site, you can build a power plant in a factory and then like put it on a truck and ship it to where it's actually going to utilize. And then you can capture the CO2. And so you can actually run a carbon negative combustion process by using a biofuel. And then you can kind of, you can also layer in some fossil fuels, but the whole thing still ends up being carbon negative. And it's super cost effective. And there's tax credits. And then there's the burgeoning carbon credit market. So it's like this really wild, hard-tech, capital intensive ambition, but I don't know if you're aware. In the last 25 years, our country has brought on like very little new energy onto the grid. Like the power demand in this country is basically hovered around for terawatt hours. - Well, and it's going to be crazy with AI, too, right? - So that's what's happening now. Is it the energy demand in the next 25 years? We pretty much need to double our energy infrastructure. And it's not at all clear how we're going to do that. Especially now that we're all like, you know, we're all aware of rising CO2 levels and like we need to actually, not only we need to keep our CO2 levels like where they are, we actually need to like, we need to bend to curve. - We need to actually reduce CO2 emissions. And so it seems like we have something really unique and special. And you know, we got this group that I was a part of. I did not do the PhD, those guys are, but it's like all these brilliant PhD combustion gurus. - So are you taking an active role in it? - Yes. I'm not, you know, like it's, we're in stealth, I don't have anything like announce yet, but I started consulting with the university about a year ago and now I'm putting in more and more time and we're actually putting together the financial plan and the data and we, I put it, I just designed a logo and we're putting it on the right brand. And yeah, I think, I mean, it feels like destiny. It feels like it feels pretty clear like what I'm just supposed to do next. So I'm trying to balance all of this and I think because it's like energy infrastructure and things like move slow, it's like, once you've got the represented amount of capital and you're building the team, like, I think it'll actually probably serve the company well for me to just stay super active and some of these things that give me energy and keep me like super well networked with all sorts of, and I work with a lot of like really technically to do brilliant, sometimes PhD, founder types. So I don't know, it sort of all works together. - I don't know how you're balancing it all because you've got all these different, you've got your hands in a lot of pots and you clearly have efficiency hacks that well, we talked about a few of them, but how are you finding time also, your husband, father of force and to be five, it's not, isn't it? So I will tell you, I just started taking a Kabalov class and I really like it and then they have us working on this workbook and asking questions around and all of my answers were like Shabbat and I've never done Shabbat, like I've done Friday night, you know, we like the candles, blah, blah, blah, but I've never done like a full digital break from sundown to sundown. - Just come for Shabbat, by the way, people do this, like I had one of my, one of my formats, really successful guy and our IPO chapter, like he came for Travis, he'd never done a Travis, he came with his wife and his kid at a great time. So like, just come on. - We need like Shabbat dinner, I've done that a million times. - No, like fly in, fly in. - And then just like stay for the weekend and pajamas. - And just stay, just come and stay with us, yeah. - Okay, I'm all in, but I just think like the answer for a lot of it because I feel this like need to kind of go, go, go, go, go all the time and it's almost like I need a forcing function, I have to someone force me to do it. We have to slow down, that's the point. It's a reference point, that's the thing, it's so funny, it's like the irony, but it's like, I feel like as time has gone on and as we've become more and more connected to like stuff independent upon things and technology and now like everything's digital and like, you're right, we're on our foot, we're like, let's call a spade, spade myself and clearly, like we're all addicted to our phones. We all have an open relationship and technology. - I'm like twitching without it, totally. So like I've been doing this now for most of my life where it's like, you know, I shut down. It doesn't matter what's happening in the world, you know? Like and there's a few times in the year where it's like I literally have a three day. It's like there'll be a two day yompt of like a two day holiday that'll, that'll bought up against Shabbos and I'm offline for like seven or two plus hours. - So what do you do? I mean everybody knows that about you because they know that you're observant. But what are you doing? If I was like a fly on the lot, your house on Shabbat, is it like games with the kids? Are you sleeping? Are you reading? What do you do? - Yeah, all of that, all of that. I mean, I'm sleep, yeah. It's like I first, you know, I'm gonna eat an incredible meal. You know, like I'm very fortunate to be married to like an incredible angelic, selfless, unbelievable woman who takes very good care of me and puts up with me. And so like I'm gonna go home and like I'm gonna eat like, you know, a king tonight. And then probably play some games with the kids get a really good night's sleep. Go get this, you know, do like go to like a big nice communal meditation session, essentially in the morning and then eat more incredible food, hang out with homies, learn, you know, like nourish my soul, maybe sleep some more, play some more games with the kids, have some DMCs with the family and with close friends. It's just like, it's a party. Like it's the, you know, like offline, think about like the experience you have when you go to a national park. It's like you get to the national park. You spend like a day or two like in, you know, in Yellowstone or like and you're like, why am I like why like why has it been so long since I've been to a national park? Like what am I do it? Like I need to spend more time like in the ground and slow down and we ground in nature. We ground in connection or digital detox of any sort. We're always like, oh, this is a spiritual version of going to that national park. is available to us at all times if we just allow ourselves to go inward and block out all the noise and every little thing that's screaming for your attention and just get back in touch with the presence, the inherent reality that we're all part of something so much bigger than ourselves that none of us really understand. There's a magical inherent mystery and mystique if we just allow ourselves to listen and tune in and when we do it fuels us. It's like it's tapping into our source. This is literally my final question what fuels you but yours could go in a million directions but I'm guessing it's a combo meal of what you're talking about, the spiritual part, the connection part. What fuels me is connecting to and it's not just mine, it's for all of us to share, it's connecting to our source, connecting to that underlying all-encompassing, unifying, unspoken, mysterious, hidden life force that's endlessly creative and endlessly growing and is supporting us to be alive, to be conscious, we're swimming in the sea of life, it's an endless flow, it's a gift, you know, we're swimming at oxygen, without oxygen we can't breathe, we have to especially now in such a, you know, as things accelerate towards more automation and more, you know, technology and AI, we have to be able, we have to flex this muscle and invest the time and energy and spirit and resources into becoming more resource and tapping into our source. Thank you for listening to the What fuels you podcast. If you'd like to check out past episodes to hear from more business leaders go to dualtalent.com/podcast and if you have a minute, please leave a review and rating on your favorite podcast app or share this episode with a friend or colleague. Please share any feedback or interview suggestions for other guests by sending a message to [email protected]. I'm Shauna Spurland and thanks again for listening.