Ari Emanuel - The Anti-AI Bet

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[MUSIC PLAYING] Hello, and welcome, everyone. I'm Patrick O'Shaughnessy, and this is Invest Like The Best. This show is an open-ended exploration of markets, ideas, stories, and strategies that will help you better invest both your time and your money. If you enjoy these conversations and want to go deeper, check out Colossus Review, our quarterly publication with in-depth profiles of the people shaping business and investing. You can find Colossus Review along with all of our podcasts at join Colossus.com. [MUSIC PLAYING] Patrick O'Shaughnessy is the CEO of Positive Sum. All opinions expressed by Patrick and podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinion of positive sum. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. Clients of Positive Sum may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast. To learn more, visit psum.vc. [MUSIC PLAYING] My guest today is Ari Emanuel. Ari runs one of the most influential portfolios in global sports, entertainment, and media. He oversees TKO, which includes the UFC and WWE, serves as the executive chairman of WME Group, and recently founded Mari, a new company focused on global events and live experiences. At the center of this conversation is Ari's anti-AI bet. As AI makes digital content cheaper and everyday work more automated, he believes that value will increasingly concentrate in live and physical experiences. He explains how he's building his portfolio around that belief, what defines a great live experience, and how he thinks about AI's impact on content and IP. Ari is best known as a deal maker, and he shares the principles behind his success, relentless follow-up over-communication, velocity, and in the procession with making things happen. And how those things become the operating system he uses today. If you're listening to this, I recommend watching the video of this interview. Ari's energy is constant and visceral, and gives a different dimension to this episode. Please enjoy my conversation with Ari Emanuel. [MUSIC PLAYING] We're going to UFC tomorrow night. I've never seen it, and I've never been to an event. But it has captured everyone's imagination. It's this amazing business, you bought it in 2016. Can you just explain the magic of this business? When I started, I represented the WWE, and I represented the UFC. When I signed the UFC, it was on Spike. We had a whole division inside the company looking at ratings. And all of a sudden, they came and they showed me, there's this thing on Spike, and here's the numbers. And then I realized, wow, this thing's ratings are starting to move. So I figured out, oh, it's Dana White and the Fiditas. And I represented the WWE and they're close enough. So I called them. Called Dana. Yeah, and eventually I got a meeting. And I completely screwed up the meeting. I was talking about the WWE. It was just bad. One of my worst signing meetings. And I just kept at it. 'Cause I knew, based on their ratings and what they were getting, as a license fee, domestic license fee, it wasn't enough money. And I knew if I got my hands on it, I could do some stuff with it, it just as a representative. So eventually, after doing a couple of things, he signed with me, the organization signed with me. They were making $15 million a year from Spike. And I think the first deal I made at Spike, I increased it to $75, something like that. And we made a video game deal, which they didn't ever have. And after 20 years, we moved it to Fox for $150 million. Good growth rate so far. We've done well. And then my life changed. 'Cause it really came into my life. We started buying companies. We bought IMG. And we had started building an infrastructure. Because of IMG, they had sports and events. An infrastructure to, whether it be licensing, distribution, production, a lot of things that companies needed on a global basis, not just domestic basis. And then the fatitas decided they wanted to sell. And a little before that, we had bought PBR, the professional bull riding, had started turning that thing around. And so, like Egon, my partner, Egon Durbin, realized we do more negotiations on the domestic side broadcasting for TV shows and movies. Then almost anybody else, you could handle, and we'd already done it for other people. You could handle sports if you owned it. And I concluded where the world was going. I was talking about it's gonna go to streaming. Sports gonna be important. It was on cable. It's gonna move there because for Avod and everything. So we buy it. Now, at the time, when we bought IMG, the closest bidder we think was churned and at 1.9 billion, we paid 2.4. Everybody thought was the highest price ever paid. When we bought UFC on the current trajectory, it was 20 times. If I made the proper domestic deal, I could take the leverage down. And I thought, I just did the math. Here's how much they need it because of here's how much programming. 'Cause remember the time, Fox owned these RSNs, the regional players. And they had just the spokes off the library. When I said they have to pay, here's a normal increase. Not like the rest of your people that sit in this chair would ask them how they do their analysis. Cut to, we buy it. People think we're crazy. And then the world blows out. Rupert decides to sell to Disney. Those two people are not bidding. Comcast didn't want it. Warner's didn't want it. And Paramount had not decided what they were gonna be. So now I'm looking at myself. We're fucked. I got no bitters. And my contract's coming up in a year. So we go back to Fox. Son's what they were gonna have remaining and say you should buy this. Locklin didn't want to do it for his point of view. I think it was three or four months into our deal coming off Fox. ESPN fires John Skipper who was always shining me on that he never wanted. And Bob Eiger and Kevin Mayer say we want it 'cause we're gonna go direct on ESPN. And we make a deal for both, we're coming on Saturday to the paper views which we have stopped now since we're going to Paramount. And we have these just normal fights every weekend, our fight nights. So I did my job. It was emotionally trying, but we got it done. And what then happened, which was incredible and horrible all at once. COVID happens, world shuts down. Dana goes, we're putting the fights on. I said, I got your back. He goes, get me an island. I call my partners in the Middle East in Abu Dhabi and Caldon who owns Man City. And I said, we need an island and we need planes and we need testing everything 'cause there's not gonna be no honest, we need this and he says yes. So we bring fighters in from Europe. We bring fighters in from United States. We test everybody's isolated for two weeks and we spent two months, I think, maybe three months there. And no one else is doing anything. Nope, no sports on and it blows up. How much of an inflection was that in audience size? No, our pay per views were getting, I think we were getting like a million views. It was insane 'cause there was no sports on zero. I don't know if you remember that period. It was nothing. Yeah, there's letter nothing. And we were the first two up, the USC and PBR. And we had a whole document on our testing. It was crazy. If I build down your whole life, is it makes shit happen over and over and over? Yeah, you can't relentlessly not taking no. But I think that's most successful people. You have a very distinctive style of being extremely good at that. How did that develop? Well, when you have two older brothers that are really good at their job and a mother and a father that just push you and there's many good things to do to the selection. And any parent that has a selection child, I will tell you it does get better if you hang in there. So I don't get embarrassed easily. Somebody's saying no, who cares? I just keep on trying to open more doors. So those elements in my life, my mom, my brother's competition and I'm competitive with myself, very. What's that feel like? Horrible. (laughing) You know, it's exhausting. But it's gotten better. Well, what is it like internally? Are you literally waking up like yelling at yourself? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, everyday. Yeah, yeah. There's that voice ticking off all the things you gotta do and playing the chess match. And one of the things that Jeff Bezos said to me, it was so good, it really did help me. He said, you have to at your age are you now? No one you're on the field and no one you're off the field. The problem in the past, it was helpful to a point, but you can't get really successful. I was always on the field, always. Defined as what? Meaning I was always playing chess in any conversation, thinking of the angle, working the situation. And sometimes it should just be chill the fuck out. (laughing) I never realized that. (laughing) Many things helped me, but that little conversation, he's actually right. And it actually makes when you're on the field better. And I wasn't mature enough to realize that until somebody slapped me in the face. And being off the field for you means what? Well, in any conversation, I'm not. You're not calculating for my angles. I'm not calculating out all the different things. It can just be a good conversation. Now, I'm curious, so I read a ton. I read a ton of articles. I tell my office, I want to talk to that person, I want to talk to that person. I'm on the field a lot. But there's sometimes chill the fuck out. You know, you don't have to be on the field. What about wrestling? How good were you at wrestling? What made you good? What was your style? What did it teach you? I was fast, I was great, take downs. You know what it does do, wrestling? And I think MMA, and when you're in high school, and you have to go from my size now to 132 pounds, easier when you're younger. And you have to start your shelf, plus work out and go to school. And the mental fortitude of that just keeps on going in your life. But you can handle that emotional pain. And that's also in business. I can handle a lot of emotional pain. And I think one of the hardest things now for kids, which I hope I have to teach my kids, is that emotional endurance that you need in life right now is even more challenging, I think business, just because business is no longer binary. It's multi-layered. And you have to realize sometimes you have to have a relationship with somebody, even though there's things in that relationship you don't like. And I don't think that was in the past in business. You had to think through all those things. And it's just emotionally draining right now, because there's so many things going on. What was the most extreme emotional pain you ever felt in business? The situation? The contract thing. With the UFC. 'Cause I put all the chips in the middle, $4.2 billion in the middle. Clients were investing. My biggest investor's investing. I had done the calculation. I didn't see that Rupert was gonna sell and we're coming to the end, contracts form once away. Because of that, my thyroid went on the fritz. It was so much pressure. I'd never had that physical axle. I went down to 142 pounds. Of course, shit. Dana talks about this gray hair and amaciated sweating. I mean, it was horrible. And finally, I went to the doctor and he goes, "Yeah, your thyroid's going at a rate." So that was hard. But once it got done, everything came back and calmed down. No longer was on the field all the time. What does the power dynamic feel like today around content, those that own it and the places that it could be distributed versus the past of that same power structure? Like how's it evolved? In the past, yeah, the fence in rule, where the owners of distribution couldn't own the whole thing. Now with cable gone and broadcast, not gone, but in decline. We just talked about is it going to be one of brothers with Netflix or is it going to be Paramount? There's not a lot of supply chain. These guys are doing it and they're doing it within each other's boundaries. Sony's one of suppliers. There's some before there was a lot. Even before when I was in the business, you had tax incentives for production. There's a company called Witt Thomas and all these independents used to supply. They used to get tax benefits and supply grade programming. It was an unbelievable bend yet syndication and that's how we had the beginning of my career. We made all this money. Television was a great business. You put a show on if you weren't independent. You don't in the show. Carcy Warner, Tom Warner, who owns the Boston Red Sox and I think he's still owns Liverpool and he owns some foreign owned. So you put the 70 show on or the cause of the show on or Ozan or you do 150 episodes. You sell to a station group for $5 million in episode, 150. Do you can do the math? - Yeah, I can. - And then you do a second window into cable and then a third window happened when Netflix came around. And then you do that multiple after they've run its course. The second window is syndication. The third window is syndication. The fourth window. Now it's really just what we just did for the office and you can do for the Simpson's and you can do for family guy and curb and sign felt they're paying a lot of money. For the office you're doing it a contest. That's the window. It's 500 million dollars for the new window. It's a very good deal. But then I think about four years ago, three years ago, the writer's guild took away our packages. But it used to be you had all these independents supplying all the content. Now it's the majors supplying the majors. So it's a lot different. And I do think that has not been beneficial. I do think what's gonna happen now though. AI is definitely gonna reduce costs. So I had a client who's a writer director. I'm not gonna say who. He's got to do an outline for a project. He gave, I think, grok or perplexity or incredible prompt. Based on a piece of IP. The outline for the project. Pretty close. Now remember, AI as people say is the greatest average which it is. He said it was unbelievable. Now he's gonna have to do work on it. But that would have taken months. Is your take on AI that it basically super charges the very best people with disproportionate risk? Have you seen that elsewhere? I'm not in other businesses, but my son works at Apple. I mean, I think programmers are feeling that. I think they're feeling that in probably finance. When you saw Sora too, what'd you think? Oh, I wanted to assume. 'Cause he stole a bunch of stuff. You know, put the UFC up there. They put the WWE, they put bull riding and really bad stuff. But what it's going to do, whether it be Sora, grok. It's just gonna make production costs, filming, DPs. And then you're gonna be able to either bring Betty Davis back or Elizabeth Taylor. It's gonna happen. So you're gonna see in a good way, like in the music business, you can do an album in your bed. I think the same thing's true in the movie business. I don't know where it's going, but it's going to be cheaper. And there's going to be a lot of it. And I think the walls around creating content for the first time because of the cost. Because it used to cost a lot of money. It's no longer gonna be that. So that's gonna come down. In a world where the marginal cost of content creation is getting close to zero, where does the value accrue? Well, if we have four great bitters and maybe with six Wi-Fi, maybe everybody with their social platforms is a distributor through social. Let's just say we're right. The marginal cost becomes zero. And you're Dwayne Johnson. And you have, I don't know how many people he was on social. A lot. Or Kim Kardashian. Or you named the person. Are you not a distributor? Those are the questions that are gonna arise pretty soon. And then I say to people at way more. For the first time, taste matters a lot. Say a little bit more about that. I don't know about you, but I could call it a little bit. I'm just a great script. Shut the fuck up. Knowing what is good and what is commercial and what sells. Yeah. No, I'm not always right. I'm probably batting 300. I'm in the hall of fame. So 60% of the time I'm screwed. But people would taste that, know this business, that know kind of what an audience, a mass audience likes is hard. So if you have taste and you're seeing a lot of programming, you can say there's talent there. That actually has value. So you're Duane Johnson. Let's just take it out to you. Let's just say my conclusion's right. And you take it out to its farthest limit where Duane Johnson has a development team and they're looking for stuff and they're picking it and they're putting on their service. For Duane, and Duane's paying that person, I don't know if they're paying a million dollars or $10,000 because they think of nothing. There's a value proposition there. And you get a sponsor, you get a subs. I don't know. In some capacity, that's gonna happen. Brands are gonna be really important. All IP is gonna be really important. I think the value of sports is gonna be even more valuable. - What about the content side of this? The use of IP. - Yeah, that's gonna be huge business. I do believe. I think it's David Ellison's bet that there's gonna be more need for content than there's ever been. And there's gonna be more consumption. I agree with that. And it's gonna be cheaper. - What about the use of content by labs where maybe they shouldn't have used it to train models, for example? - Yeah, they should all get sued. - How do you think that'll play out? - We sent the bad letter to Sam stop using the UFC and the WWE and so on. So they're gonna have to pay. I think unless the Supreme Court says something, when Larry David creates curb and sign felled, and you're taking it to train your model, and you're gonna make a lot of zeros. You don't think Larry David is gonna get paid? I think that's crazy. - Let's talk about IRL stuff in this context. Obviously you've created a portfolio of some of the marquee live events. And I know you believe very deeply in this. - Is there a way to think about this almost like the anti-AI bet or the AI proof bet? - AI is going to be big. - Which I think is a proper conclusion. There's a really lot of smart people spending a lot of money at it, and they're smarter than me. So Netherlands just said four day work weeks. Drive times now are 11 to four, cross America, hotel bookings, Thursdays, way up, and there's a lot of more data points to this. So the weekend starts Thursday now, and we're 2025, maybe 2020 they start Wednesday. So we're social animals, so you're coming to it, UFC fight, you're a social guy. What are you gonna do? You're gonna watch a lot of content, David Ellison's conclusion. You're gonna watch a lot of content. There's gonna be more content than ever, cost zero on his service, on four big services. You're gonna be going to concerts, going to stand up, going to live events, sports, or my live events that I've just bought. So the value of that, 'cause there's only so much, and yeah, people are creating new ones, but so that's my whole bet. I don't know how to write an algorithm for AI. I don't know how to build a data center. I'm not in a chip business. I just know how to create really great live events, monetize them, have a great user experience, and it's the opposite, 'cause data centers aren't the opposite bet. Live is the opposite bet. - What makes a great live event? What are the ingredients? - Well, there has to be a specific audience. So in art, there's a very specific audience. There's a culture around art. It's global. There's really good conversation about it. Cars, anti-cars, another one of my businesses. Very specific sports, UFC, bull riding, WWE. Very specific. Taste, food festivals. So I'm in the areas that I know there's great cultural stickiness. - Affinity, yeah. - Affinity, it's global. So one of the things that we know, why did we do freeze? It was only in two places. It was in UK and New York. We knew there were art festivals all the place. We run poorly. We knew we could take it globally. We could spread the sponsorship. We could determine that city needs them and they would pay us to bring events. So we'd get sight fees. So, hey, bring freeze, great brand. Notice how to do this properly. The food around it, lectures, et cetera. We're gonna pay you to come here for 10 years to put on the event. We just close that deal in Abu Dhabi. - So when you start doing those things properly, in our Madrid open, which is our tennis tournament, it's one of the nine 1000s, we're gonna build another stadium to build another food festival. We're gonna do concerts after the tennis tournament. We just know how to do it. So when we look at these things, we look at them in a way that, what are they missing? Because we're one of the only companies on a global basis that do live events. Sometimes you have companies that do great live events, but they're local. They're guys that are in Arizona. They're guys that are in just the UK. When they come into our organization, we're in 32 coming. We know, oh, you know something, there's an affinity here. - You said two of the things, monetization and user experience. I'm gonna save monetization 'cause I have a specific question about it. What is great user experience? - So when they go around, there's food, there's lectures, there's surrounding events that make the event itself and inside the event really special. And it's a great way. I can't stress enough the need for people to get community. 'Cause we're all sitting, staring. I remember one of the things that made me think about this also about why live events are so important. And sports were so important. Tiger talked about it at one point. I saw a documentary or anything. When he first one, the people were clapping. Second time, phones were up and people were screaming. And that's because that thing, you wanna show how great your life is. And that all thing detaches you. And you want a place where you can have with other people a great experience. And that just boasts well for music, life sports, live events. - And you're selling status to some degree, like you're selling to the video that it takes. - This is status. - Monetization is the one that it treats me the most based on a conversation you know I've had before, which is we're still figuring out the demand curve inside of one of these events. - You know we bought this company on location. You know about that? - A little bit, but remember. - So on location, Jerry Cardinal first owned it with the NFL and they were doing the premium hospitality for the Super Bowl. And we thought, well that's incredible. 'Cause people are asking for premiums now and rich people are asking for more and more 'cause they can get everything so they want even specialer. And that there was tiered market, not in a bad way. Some people, I'm gonna pay $100 and some people I'm gonna pay $300. And then some people are gonna pay crazy. So in the Super Bowl, go to Tiffany's and get a blue football and have 10 people with you and get a lecture from Peyton Manning and walk on the field pregame and come out with the team and be on the stage for weigh-ins at the UFC and sit at the table with Dana White. And for that I'm gonna pay $50,000 a ticket. I'm gonna pay $300,000 for the Super Bowl or XYZ for the Olympics. It's crazy. - And you still haven't found the-- - Oh no, no, we're adding. So the Olympics, FIFA, UFC, WWE, in every category, there's premiums and people pay. - Crazy. - Crazy. - How much of it do you think is them paying for the video that they get on that versus the actual experience? - I think it has. - Pretty high. - Yeah, pretty high. - But I think that's fantastic. - That's fine. - You work your ass off. - You love this thing. - Whether it be music, events, sports. - I want a different experience in my life. - Yes, for that, but just life. And I think COVID made that happen too, and people are doing it. We're at ends, I don't know. - But it is a huge premium business. - How far can you push this? It feels like you've collected lots of the marquee assets and things that you love. What's the runway feel like to you for the species? - So here's one thing that we're doing in the live events business that I started. - This is Freeze and this is-- - Yeah, this is called Mario. - This is Freeze. - This is Freeze. - Barrett Jackson, our tennis tournaments, our participatory sports like Escape from Alcatraz and Melbourne, Marathon and our taste festivals went to Wonderland, that business. So we bought a ticketing business inside that. This thing called TodayTix. The ticketing business, mainly they do, mainly, almost all they do is theater business. When COVID happened, unlike other ticketing business which had to keep on operating, they shut the whole thing down and rewrote the operating system. - And it's incredible. - So we'll create a destination with an incredible ticketing asset. Where I think it's going is-- - Hopefully, we create a platform that has events because we operate events pretty well. - Plus a destination, your white lip ticketing, then we can create a sponsorship layer, site feel layer, and maybe white label some stuff and go from there. - So that's the dream, that's the wish. - What is the most surprising thing about the landscape of sports and live events, dude? - Well, when you think about sports, so you have the beast of all beasts at FL, NBA, Global, baseball hockey, English Premier League, Spanish League, French, they're all owned by federations and there's very few independent, and very few people that know how to run 'em. When we were buying the U.S., and we were having this argument internally, Egon would say, "Well, the people that can pay the most are the rocket." Well, they would ruin the sport. There's so many things that happen to run one of these things. You have to make really hard decisions. First of all, so there's a limited amount that is available to buy. In the wrong hands, the ones that are independent, unless Adam Silver's there, unless Roger Gidell's there, those things don't run the way they're supposed to. Those things are hard. And the same thing with our sport. We're about to start our boxing business. - So if you approach boxing, - We have announced the boxing league with Paramount. - And we do the big, huge, super fights - As you approach that opportunity, tell me the story of how you build this. - Let's go back. - Don King screws over Ali, Ali gets X, gets past, it changes the sport. Now, first of all, to create a league in a combat sport, the only person that could have ever done it is Dana White. Ever, he did it with the UFC. And the other person that could have done it, it's sports entertainment is Vince McMahon. It's incredible. So we now look at that. The Ali X can exist. We're gonna put it, hopefully we can get this past, add an element to it that we could create another opportunity for fighters. We're gonna have, like we have in the UFC, the best fighters fight the best fighters. And we think we can create like a UFC, but with boxing, in Zufa boxing. And if we do that, I think fighters are gonna make more money, 'cause right now you don't know any great fighters. It's not like, you can't name one. We think we can do that. And then boxers will make more money. It will be a business for them. And it's a great sport. I was more jazz than ever about that. We put a great fight on, it's a league in stadiums where the Raiders play. And Mark Davis was unbelievable. My partner, he had Durbin Hu, is part of that, was unbelievable helping us with that. And when you put a great fight and a great card on, how many people showed up? Because it's so ingrained boxing into our world, 70,000 people, and they did not leave. It was spectacular. So if we do that now, I think it can be as big or bigger than the UFC in the WWE in their big. And we're gonna do our best to do it because I think the audience wants it, and I think it'd be great for fighters. - What makes Dana so incredible as an entrepreneur? What is his superpower? - One, he loves it. - Good place to start. - He really does love combat sports. - Two is, he's not scared. He just not. When you look at him, his poker play, I don't know how he does it, 'cause if I'm betting $5, I can't play poker, but he makes fun of me, but let me do this, right? - I'll tell you a story. We're celebrating the deal at ESPN. He was flying, coming up Vegas. We're going out for dinner, we're celebrating. - I'm like, okay. - What does that mean? - We're gonna go gamble, what? - I don't gamble. - I said, okay, how much do you want on your line? - I figured I said 25,000, and we're in the car, and we're driving. He goes, you're the biggest gambler I know, to me. I'm like, no, I'm not. He goes, you just bet on me, $4.2 billion. - He took a million dollars. I think he got me up to $50,000 on the line. And I said, well, that's not a gamble, 'cause I did my version in my head, my calculation. So he is just a unique individual that he's not partisan. He's loyal, and he has a vision. He backs your play. He's just that guy, and he's not afraid to take on a challenge and do the work. I mean, he works constantly. So in this space, he just knows the space so well, and he's relentless. - How did you learn to become not afraid? - Well, when you're dyslexic and people are making fun of you. - Just power through. - You can't be embarrassed. There's nothing more embarrassing when you're 13 years old. They put me in-- - Like a remedial class or something. - What was in remedial, it was worse than that. - Yeah, and you're in school, and you know you're not stupid. I was in special ed. Well, there can't be more embarrassing than that. So anything now, I don't appreciate it. You can't embarrass me. And it was actually that simple. When you're in special ed, and you're 15 years old and you're in high school, and you two brothers are some of the smartest groups from that high school, and you have to walk home. You're really good at math. You just can't read just because of how your brain's wired, and they put you in special ed. You're like, what the fuck? - So what was the first experience, though, of clicking out of that to the opposite of, oh, shit, I could be really good at something. - I don't know what it was. My three boys were just lexic, 'cause it does get passed on. My father was just lexic. And when my boys were just lexic, I put them into this class, this school in the summer called Linda Moodbell. They run a marathon on their brains to teach their left, back, low, how to read. It's four hours a day relentless. My mom did that to me. - There was no Linda Moodbell, you know? People called Tiger Moms. I don't know what you call it Jewish Tiger Moms, but it's brutal, all right? So I don't care what anybody else is saying. You're going to college, 'cause now I wasn't gonna go to college. You're reading, you're getting good grades. Tiger Moms at a degree of 10. - And then what was the first early 20s post-college big hit of success in the year? - Well, I screwed around in Europe for a year. I came back to New York and a friend of mine at the time was this guy, my name is Michael Mendelsson. And he was working for this company. I used to wake up in five in the morning, just watched TV and I used to watch the crusher and the bruiser and the regional wrestling and TV shows and never knew how it was made, but watched everything. So I said, "What are you doing?" And he said to me, "Oh, I'm working at William Morris." Now, how the fuck am I supposed to know William Morris as I'm from Chicago? My father's a doctor, he's an immigrant. William Morris, what the fuck is William Morris? So he tells me, and for whatever reason, bang, the light went up. And I didn't have a job. I didn't know what I was gonna go to business school back to Northwestern, on night school, business school, and I was gonna work at the Merck 'cause I used to do summer jobs at the Merck in the pits, 2220, 2220, I used to do all that. I thought I was gonna do that. It was a good math. And for whatever reason, the minute he told me that, I said, "That's a gig for me." Got a job working for this guy, my name is Robbie Lance. I was working for Bob Duva, who went to work for Robbie Lance. And it just started. I helped with the Tennessee Williams-Lowland helmet and dash helmet of states, making right deals for them and organized any properly. He was, I think, at the time, 86. And he turns to me, and I was doing a really good job. And he says, "I'm not promoting anybody. You should go out to LA, and you can make a lot of money." And he set up two interviews for me. One at CAA, and one at this company called Leading Artists. And got the job in the mail room at CAA, making $0.15 a mile. - Where'd you learn in the mail room? - That I hated it. I learned how to actually drive around LA. And I learned the hierarchy of the business, business affairs people, studio heads, at the time where movie stars played. The movie business, how important it was, but the television business made a lot of money. And I realized I could never be in the movie business. - Why? - 'Cause you would have to do coverage while you're in the mail room. - I'm just like, movie script, 130 pages. - I'm 120 pages. - TV script. - 30 pages. (laughs) - I'm not spending all weekend, I'm not. Now that little thing, 'cause the money was in television. - That little change to doors. - Bang. And then, when we started endeavor with George Gilder's book, and I'm reading it in life after television, I'm like, we're gonna be a lot more distribution. There's only so much content creators at the time. Content was gonna change and expand, but there's limited supply and demand. - Prices are going up for creators. - And television where you could make, I went on Bill Haber's desk, the head of television at the time. It was Mike Ovid's Ron Meyer, Bill Haber. The huge money. Huge money was coming in 'cause of television. Not that the movie business wasn't, because you had the DVD business at the time and gross participation and everything else. But you had a hit television show, like Alf. I remember sitting on the desk listening to all the calls, and there was a fight between Mike Ovid's and Bernie Burlstein on Alf and what they were paying out. That thing paid out a fortune. And then it paid out syndication, one syndication, two. And I'm like, that baby's from me. - What was the key to being an exceptional agent? - Being relentless. When you're trying to get somebody staffed, one of the greatest things Robby Lance ever taught me. You know why people call me back, Robby, you're saying this, "Boss Jane, it acts up." 'Cause I represent Milo Shwarman, who did Amadeus. I represent Peter Schaffer, I represent Al Pacino. They'll call you back. So having a great client meant you had access. So you had to have taste and you had to get great clients. And once you did that and they continued to grow, you became more and more powerful. So that's what I did. - How did you get your first great client? Who was it? - I'm at CAA and I go to this company, Intertalent. And Mark Rosen, I'm not sure if it was my first client, I might have been my second client. 'Cause Greg Daniels who created the office and King of the Hill and Parks and Rec, he might have been my first client, but Amy Lippmann, a creative party of five, also might have been actual. - Actual, yeah. - But they had created a show. I thought the shows were great. Took over those clients. They led to other clients. And then back then, there was no YouTube. There was no Instagram. There was none of that. People weren't creating that way. The great shows were they would go from at the time, satellite life, to the Simpsons. This whole Harvard Lampoon group. And all those, a lot of them, not all SNL guys, the writers, 'cause I was in the writer business, came from the lampoon, Harvard. Going to Harvard. - Go there. - So signed a bunch of people off of that, put them on SNL, SNL, they went to the Simpsons or they had the predegree and then you moved them around. - I have a bizarrely specific question. I've been on the receiving end of what it's like to communicate with you and your team. But it's unlike anything that I've experienced in terms of the speed, the velocity of it. - The velocity of it. - Yeah, the velocity, like you get engaged. And then it's just, you feel like you got plugged into the matrix. - Yeah. - What is that? - I don't know. - I have no idea. - Yes, I use the phone. I say this all the time. I use it as a weapon and I have two people working for me and I do now a lot of stuff on AI with regard to converse calls and follow up. - What is your system? - I don't know this system. - I have no idea. I just, you must know. - I've grown it over years that it's its own animal. - What's the principle behind it? - Relentless follow up in communication, over communication. I hate it. Like my brother's eat is horrible at it. He's my oldest brother. - I say don't. I just send you this to call this person 'cause you ask me and I've connected you and the next call is not that person. What are you doing? I don't understand. It drives me crazy with my kids too. My middle kid is very good at it. Who's in the business. Who's in the entertainment? Because he's seen me do it. But one is you got to communicate. You got to over communicate. If they're not getting back to you, you got to keep on calling them. What are you doing? That's the job. - How do you make people love you for it versus be annoyed by it? - I don't know if people love me for it. Try and make it. - At least they respect it. - I know you want to kill me. You know, you have to bring levity to it. But it is a force. I understand that. - How many calls do you think you do a day? - A lot. (laughing) A lot. My friend Pete Berg was in the car with me once. We were coming back. I don't know. We were coming back from a golf match and he's sitting in the car and the system starts the phone calls. And the phone calls come be from residents in the United States to a young actor, a writer, an ID I want. And he turns to me in the middle of it and he goes, I'm too anxious right now. Yeah, I can't breathe. And I'm like, what's the problem? He goes, do you realize what's going on on that thing? And yeah, I know. I'm sorry about it. - It just works. - No, I love it. I think it's fantastic. - Did I come at you pretty hard, my system? - No, it just feels different. It feels like the thing matters. That's nice. Two few things feel like they matter. - If I'm going to be involved in something, it matters to me. So therefore I'm going to take it to the point where I can get it done. - What have you learned from Egon? - You know the great thing about him is he continues to want to learn. He's a guy that's made a lot of money. He takes a lot of big risks, but he's smart about them in his calculation. Unlike me, M&M writes all the time, songs. He writes, writes, writes, writes, writes beforehand. And then when he gets in there, he pulls his way. Jay-Z, this is what Rick Rubin told me. He doesn't write any of his lyrics. They're about to start. He comes back in, tune hits. He does the rap. He's instinctual, but incredible. Egon does unbelievable analysis. And I saw it in our take private. I see it when he goes after a company, he's relentless when he wants something. And he takes criticism. For a guy at his level, Pee guy is good as he is taking criticism and listening to it and absorbing it and then adapting with it, incredible. I've never seen that. Most of these guys, they're not allowed. Go fuck yourself. (laughing) But he does all those. It's really incredible. And then he learns from it, adapts. I don't know if anybody, there are probably people on par with him. I don't know a lot of them. He has a point of view on industries. Like he came after me, he's tech guy. Here's where I think the business going, which matched up with mine, content, et cetera. But then the superpower, probably one of the best financial engineers I've ever seen of all these guys. It's not even close. Defined as knowing what he wants when he looks at a balance sheet. He sees a different language than most dudes and sees the value proposition and has been. Right. About 30% right. 70% right. That's fucking rare. - How do you think about your own investing that's not one of these massive major platforms that's just like a normal investment? How do you do that? - I got some big investments called TKO. I'm betting on myself. I'm not smart enough now. I have bonds. I'm not smart enough to know. I believe in Elon Musk. - Talk about him a little bit. I know you've recently saw some of the robotic stuff. Tell me where your impression was. - Well, I saw the three or four generations of the hand. I came up to him and said, I wanted to do UFC fights with the Marlots. That's one of the things we start talking about. We just had a fight in China. I sent him to see some of the Marlots there to see if we could then do a fight. - Chinese versus America. - Yeah, it was really good. - Wow, everyone in the world would watch that. - So I went up to see him. The three or four iterations of the hand. - The Optimus hand. What did you see? - Just how much technology was from one to four or one to three, I don't remember, was unbelievable. And what the hand could do, it does what you and I do. And then he showed me a couple of them that could fight and throw punches and kicks and the balance and the pushing unbelievable. So if I'm a betting man, first of all, if I'm a betting man, I'm betting on that dude. I bet I'm on him on SpaceX, X, X AI, Twitter. - I almost hesitate to ask because everyone knows Elon's awesome and has been awesome and is great at what he does. But how would you describe his greatness? What's your interpretation of it? - There's nobody like him. I remember it was '08. I'm having thanksgiving at my house with my brother, Ram, who's in the Obama administration. He's a cheer staff. Elon's a friend and we was falling off a cliff. So we're in California. I said, "Hey, can we come down to see SpaceX and Tesla?" - Yeah. - Now, the president's bailing out car companies. - Elon, 'cause I know it, Tesla's in trouble. - 'Cause there's cars backed up that have to be fixed. He's starting a new car company. He's sleeping there, like he did at Twitter, SpaceX. He just will not stop. Just will not stop until it's fixed. And so, we get in there. He walks with my brother, shows him SpaceX. This is at the beginning. Oh, wait. - Yeah. Nothing. - Nothing, SpaceX. He's building it. But he was sleeping there on two-hour sleep. He needs that in his life, even though he hates it at times. 'Cause I remember him calling me and he was so upset with Tesla and what should he do with it? And we would have conversations. But he wills things with sheer brains and power and guts and endurance to make them, right? And that's his super power. 'Cause it gives in a weird way, even though it's, I think, emotionally brutal on him, taking all the punches and feeling it. It also does give him a huge amount of energy and emotion satisfaction. - You've got this show called Rushmore, which is about greatness. What is it about greatness? - I don't believe in legacy. You know, I don't believe that business people have legacies. I think Elon will have a legacy. I think Jeff Bezos will have a legacy. I think Steve Jobs has a legacy. Probably mostly it's presidents, leaders, maybe some actors, but if you asked person of street Lucille Ball, you wouldn't know. But I do think there's characteristics of those four people that are important to know about. Like how did they get there and other patterns? And as we just said, we just did a Rushmore on the '90s of music with Jimmy Iveen and Rick Rubin. Who are two guys that should be as producers on Rushmore? My opinion, and Rick Rubin talks about how Eminem, he constantly writes his lyrics. He's writing all the time. - Yeah, two different kinds. - And Jay-Z doesn't. No, there's a lot of ways to get to the top. And I think one of the things I always talk about, we as humans, we can at least see greatness in how they do it and then adapt it or learn something there and take that learning and keep on evolving. But I think it's always important to learn from history as if rhymes and then take things and use them in your own life. And that's why I'm doing it. - What have you learned about with a life like the one you've led, it's not lacking adventure? How to talk to your kids about it? - And not create a circumstance where there's expectation. - I got a daughter that works at the WWE, I got a son that's working for Rick Russo, hopefully not quit, he runs for governor. And then my son is in the business, he's a producer and the other one works at Apple. And they have had unbelievable luxury. I think if you ask people, I hope if you ask people, they're pretty normal kids. 'Cause one, they weren't over-programmed. I wasn't a helicopter father. Their mother wasn't a helicopter mother. The summers, they ran around in Rhode Island and played golf and played tennis. And if they did stupid shit, they got punished. And they didn't run our lives. So they're pretty normal kids. And I'm not sitting there trying to always help them. I make an introduction and then it's their job. - Even though they hate, they would tell you, my eldest son, no, it's one of my favorite moments. We're flying somewhere and he goes, "I just want to be normal." I said, "Who the fuck wants to be normal?" "Normal sucks." And I said, "What the fuck is normal?" "Normal, what is that?" I don't even know what that is. - People say a lot of things, mostly amazing about you. One of the everyone says, is that you're one of the consummate deal makers. What is a great deal? In your mind, some you agree the middle outta great deals. What is a great process of deal-making? - You know, when you're making a deal and they're all different, people have said this. Both sides have to feel good. Your job is to make sure the other side, whether it's true or not, feels good. - To bull. - That's not easy. - How do you do that? What's the art of that? - There's so much nuance to that. Sometimes, certain people, it's just a fight you're just aggressive. Like, okay, we're in a battle. Certain people and certain negotiations and everybody feels as you're in a dance. And you're trying to get them and you just have to hang in there and do the dance till we get to the end of the song. And it's not a battle. I mean, I've been in screaming matches, like, okay, fuck you. I know you need it, you know I need it. We're flying guns. We're shooting. So, I like the second one better. And that's just about charm and that's just about how you have to play. Sometimes you gotta get mad. It takes time. - Somebody was asking me, what's the art? It is so complicated. - Yeah, it can't be reduced. - Yeah, I don't know if it can be reduced. That's when I was constantly on the field. I was always the first one. I was always shooting. I was always on a fight. As I've gotten bigger, there's a lot more dancing. - I was a pretty ugly fighter. - That's too much. - I mean, I was just constantly angry, pissed off. And you're standing in the way of where, 'cause I've already played the chess match out, if I get this, this, this, this, this, here's what happens. You're standing in the way of my chess match. That's how I be pissed. - It seemed to work though. I like the extremes. What's the fastest money you've ever made and what's the longest game you've ever had to play? - The greatest deal I ever made was quote unquote merging with William Morris. $44 million paid out, the CFO and Jim Watt. They never thought we were gonna write a check for $20 million and have the votes to fire them. Patrick was telling, I did that. I got the deal done and the merger done it, I think, in a year and they had a horrible culture. So everybody hated each other and we just played the chess match on their side and then took over the company and brought in silver like-- - Rest in history. - And that then led to everything. - So just assuming on that negotiation a little bit. - So here's what happened. They were in trouble. - But naturally? - They just were losing clients and financially in trouble and they all hated each other and they knew they didn't have good leadership. And we could just keep them putting out bad press on them and taking agents and taking clients. It took seven years to do that. And then we just pitted board members against them and brought them on our side 'cause we actually treated them well. We actually did. And then when the vote came before the merger, you guys now have to get rid of Jim Watt 'cause he's a disaster and the CFO all their hands went up because they realized, wait a second, these guys are good guys and we were. So even before the merger closed, they got rid of them and it just all happened. And then that led to you guys coming into my life, Teddy had gotten sick and passed away, Teddy Forceman going after IMG and it was the best deal I've ever made. - What was that flip-like from agent to owner? - This is where Egon was a great teacher. He helped us think through 'cause we knew we were going after IMG. And then once we had IMG, I knew instinctually Patrick took over the college football business that they had and I moved to the UK and I took over IMG and that's how we split the baby. And nobody was telling me I had to move to the UK. I just realized, wait a second, I just spent $2.4 billion dollars. You're going to fucking get your ass to the UK and understand that business. And none of those people wanted to stay 'cause they didn't want us to win. IMG didn't want us to win. They wanted somebody else to win. They wanted a churn and script to win. And this is where I learned a lot from Egon and Mr. Norwegian. He says, I think the churn, they were going to pay, I think it was $1.9 billion and he said, we're paying $2.4. I said, $2.4, why don't we pay $2.1? He was, we're going to make it so they can't say no and they can't go back 'cause they don't want us. And he was 100% right. Pay $2.4, we get it, and then I realized, this is my money. Time to move. Family stayed in Rhode Island and LA. I moved for, I think it was four or five months. - So you okay? - But all over Europe, I went to Spain for our tennis business and all over learned all the players. That's another place when I got done. I was physically fried, 'cause I was in flying back on weekends and it was crazy. And then I represented writers, directors, actors, plus I had to do that. So that was what had all happened. Do you care about money anymore? Are you motivated by money? - I didn't really care about money since my first show in syndication. When King of Hill went into syndication. - What happened then? - I was making $0.15 a mile. When you're making $0.15 a mile and then all of a sudden, you can go look at the math. It was $6 million in episode and they did 14 seasons. You're okay. - So then if money sunsetted, what became the thing? - I want to be right. My ideas, I want to make sure that they're right. - Because that feels good, simple as that. - I'm not the stupidest in manual. - You know, I still have competition with those two. - What have you learned from Ram? - When you talk to my brother Ram about politics, and you can talk to him about a lot of other things, but when it comes to his Metier, and we're not talking about just domestic politics, we're talking about global politics, how to handle allies in Asia to combat China or what to do on Israel or any subtext. I'm gonna boast about my brother Ram. When you look at the potential field of potential candidates for presence and there's Kretchen, Whitmore, I know, I know Josh, I know a lot of these guys, and they're all very qualified on a global basis. And he is as relentless and as driven as I am and what I do was in two white houses. Was the whip in Congress, was a mayor of a big city and understands everything going on in one of the biggest close and coronaries in the world for us Asia and had galvanized and his responsibility as ambassador galvanized that region to combat China. There's nobody more qualified. Whether that makes him future candidate, I have no idea. But my brother understands it used to be when your CEO is just bilateral. Now it's multilateral. I don't think anybody looks at that board better than him in politics and in global issues. And he learned from incredible people. Bill Clinton was incredible, Obama was incredible, worked out their agenda. At details, you can ask him about the Supreme Court in Pennsylvania issues and how they handle that. He's at an inch, I'm at an inch in my business. He's at an inch and he understand then what that means for the congressional races, what that means for the Senate. The messaging that you have to do and how to stay on message. And Zeke, he is just hysterical. I mean, I love him. He's a bioethicist. I think he's incredible thinking about medicine. And he loves it. So I just love him. What happens when you're no longer at the one inch level? When you are no longer deep in the flow. Well, I'm not now at way more. Is that been easy? I just said this to one of the companies that I run, Barrett Jackson, and Craig Jackson wants to step back. And I said to him, you know, you're never stepping back. He was really dumb. I said, well, here's what I did. Let's go private. Richard Whites and Christian Mayor are going to take over the business. And they're going to do some really great things and they're going to fuck shit up. And you know the only way they're going to learn? I do, and I'm sick of that. I fucking shit up. You don't really learn that much for doing good things. And I said, and you've got to permit the fuck ups. And the problem is I said, I started my business 31 years ago, it's my name. Your father started your business. And now it's your name. You just won't let anybody fuck up. What's the worst thing that could happen if it fucks up? Is the business going away? No, so let them fuck up. That thought process, not a lot of people have that run companies. What was your most formative fuck up? The thing you fucked up that tie you the mess? Well, I fucked up all the calls. I think I'd march pears in my life and he gets in my life. They think the biggest fuck up, truly, 'cause we're building the business and you pick bad people. But we had a bad meeting, Patrick and I, Whiteshall, with Irvine Tromb, Jim Wyatt and Dave Warchefter. And I went nuts. I was playing the chess match out and they didn't let me get to the end. And I actually went on talking about the negotiating. I screamed at them. We're seeing a table like this at the Beverly Hills Hotel. I went nuts. I said, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. We could buy you. We're two inches big, and it's William Morris. 'Cause we were more profitable. And I said, you know nothing about this. And I go fucking nuts. And Patrick to his credit, he knows when I hit the Def Com 4 or 5, he's just get the fuck out of the way. Your meeting ends, it's over. And we're walking down Wilshire and he goes, well, that's over, I said, no, that's not over. This is happening. We year and a half later, two years later, it was back on the table. But that was a fucko, 'cause it just pushed us way, way back. But I just, I thought Def Com, I was so pissed. What do you think the future of TV and movies are? There's gonna be a lot more of them. And I actually think what I said to you, I think that you're seeing it now. Marketing companies are going to podcasters and streamers and marketing with them or giving them brands and giving them ownership to sponsor them and market them. And sometimes they sponsor them and sometimes they ask them to take equity and same thing's gonna happen with content. We talked about this. I think the cost is gonna go down to zero or very close. And Dwayne Johnson and Mark Wahlberg, Dana White, Pat McAfee, they're all gonna become their own channels. I do believe actually. I don't know if that's in two years or in seven years. So then representation has to change its infrastructure. Like we change when we took our sports to be able to handle that conversation with regard to licensing, marketing, all that stuff. - Give me advice. I have a channel, I have a lot of people. - I think the podcasting business is gonna become like the cable business. It's gonna become like Oprah. - Oprah had Dr. Phil, she sponsored people and then she took him out in a syndication on the station groups. You're gonna find a young you and maybe it's in medicine or maybe it's in something that interests you. And you're gonna bring him into the fold with your sponsors, your distribution and everything. You're gonna take a piece of it. And maybe there's a product that comes off of it and you're gonna own a piece and he's gonna own a piece. And then you're gonna figure out maybe I need my own sponsorship marketing team internally. So you're gonna become your Oprah. You become Oprah. - Great. - That will be the first iteration of this. You never know, you might find a movie that you like or a documentary you like and you send it out to your subs. And then there's multiple ways you can monetize that. Maybe you turn that into a book. - Play the game. - That's my opinion. - What's your craziest view on the future of sports? We'll finish where we start. - Prices are going way out. - Prices for everything. - Prices for teams. - Okay, talk about that 'cause like in the end-- - Prices for teams. - There's no more rich guys to buy the teams. - Well, they'll just change. They'll go from PE firms owning 10% to 35. And instead of they can only take a billion dollars of data out, they can take two billion dollars. - They'll just go up. - That you will change. But the price of sports for the end user is gonna be more. Therefore then there's gonna be tears at Netflix which the sports tear you pay $15. And they're gonna have to make a decision when do they go direct? - It depends on-- - The leaks. - Yeah, it depends on when this thing caps out. We just saw big input of money, which is betting. That market will increase in the amount of money that they pay will increase. Premium ticket will go up and ticketing will go up. - Prices are going up. - What do you think of gambling? What do you think of betting? - Well, I think it's good actually in the following way. For us, I'm just talking about our businesses. The more data, the more you can't cheat. And I think what's gonna happen, you'll have a NAI company come in and look at all the data. And you're gonna understand, you're gonna triangulate and understand there's something happening over here with this picture and you're gonna look at video and it's gonna be like, boom. So it will be harder to cheat. Not that people won't try. I think it helps actually the engagement. Now, do I think gambling is good as a different conversation? - Do you? - I don't gamble. Do I think gambling is good? You know how I come at you hard? Imagine what I do to my kids on gambling, - Smoke hell, smoking and drinking. I feel bad for my children. It's unrelenting, articles, conversation, it's horrible. But that's the job of being a parent. - When you see the layer of massive technology companies, you talk to all these guys all the time, I'm sure. What's your impression of what's going on and big tech, real large? - So here's my understanding with San. San has made a trillion, two in obligations. - It's a big number, whatever it is. - He has 800 many subs. Let's just say he does 14 billion in revenue with probably his five billion. Do you understand it? - I'm definitely not as smart as you or any of these investors. They must see something. And the only way it pays off, unless I'm wrong, no, George Gilder would scream at me. He goes, every technology is created in more jobs. This is the only technology at this level of spend you have to be taking jobs and jobs have to go away. And then the government's going to have to pick them up and we're going to be more efficient and I don't understand the math now. I'm not smart enough to understand the math. You know what I do know? How to put on a fight and put on an event. That's what I know. - Who is the person that you represent or have represented that's the most innovative in this landscape right now? Mitch and Twain, they're our Johnson. He seems pretty damn innovative. - They're all testing new Kim Kardashian is, Mark Wahlberg is, Twain Johnson is, they're all looking at it and figuring out how to play in it, not all of them. Aaron Sorkin isn't, Larry David isn't, but they're just great creators. Marty Scorsese isn't, he's just a great creator. But there's some actors, writers, directors that are looking at it and trying to figure out where they sit in it. And I think the first thing they all have to do, they have to start playing with it and they're all starting to play with it. - What has you most worried about the future and most excited? - Do you have kids? - Yeah. - I'm worried for my kids. - Why? - I didn't tell you this. So I'm sitting there, I'm having my normal every six month meeting launched dinner with Elon. And we're talking about AI. He said this to me. He goes, "Live cannot be disrupted." - I said, "Okay." (laughing) - I have two years. - So we're talking about AI and he goes to me. - All right, do you have a dog? I said, "Yeah." Well, here's AI. AI is you and you're the dog. I said, "I don't like that." He goes, "That's what's happening. That's gonna happen." Well, you and I have kids. I haven't figured out, which, you know, as a parent, we have to think about where my kids sit. That makes me nervous. 'Cause I'm like, I'm over the hill in four months. I'm 65. Who gives a shit about me? (laughing) I have 30 year olds. I have a 23 year old that works at Apple. I've heard him speak about his kids. That's hard. What are we telling them? What are they supposed to be doing? - Do we think the answer to that is? - I don't know. I actually don't know. - Do you have a guess? - No, I don't. Do you? You talked to a lot of people. What are they saying to you? - Create things, make things. - Ideas. - Use the tools, make new things. - Yeah. - So far, these things are gonna make everything. - And I'm not sure. I know everybody's saying it's coming very fast. There's a numerator and a denominator here. - In the United States. I think it's just us in China, really. But I don't know if it's the numerator or the denominator. But there's this thing called energy and energy delivery. That I'm not sure yet is there for it to be in the next at fully GI capacity. - Maybe literally the power? - The power. - Yeah. - And also how we deliver the power. So, it could take a while. - It's gonna take a while. So we have a little bit of time. Well, we have to still be thinking, what the fuck are we telling our kids? - What about what's most exciting? - Most exciting for me? I've started this new business called Mari. Trying to make that into the next live nation, they're in music, or build this new company, having learned, 'cause I'm not a PE firm, but I'm a company. But I've learned all these different skill sets. Why do that one separately than the original company with UFC? - Because Silverlake just wanted an endeavor to be an agency. So he was one selling down the events and a bunch of other assets that we wanted to buy at TKO to pay down the debt. And live is where I wanted to be. So I was like, fuck it, I'll just raise a bunch of money. And the good thing is, which I felt really good about. I actually did feel really good. This crazy idea I had. People were like saying, yeah, you're right. So now I want to make them a lot of money, which I've done for a lot of people. Now I'll make myself a lot more money. Not that I care. - But you want to be right. - No, I want to be right. It is a benchmark. And these people should make a lot of money, 'cause I want them to. That's the most exciting thing. - I know you love art. What is the world of art taught you? - Well, I have a very specific area of art I collect. - Which is what? - I collect African-American artists, mainly American, but now Africa and other places. From about 1940 to now. - Why that? - I don't know, it just spoke to me. I have no idea why. So it was from Sam Gilliam Bob Thompson to Kara Walker, Mark Bradford, to Noah Davis, he passed away in credible artists. And I just, I love it. And I've been doing it now for 17 years, 18 years, in this specific area. And so I'm just deep and unrelenting. (laughs) - Shocking. - Shocking. (laughs) - Long live. My favorite question is my last one that I asked everybody. What is the kindest thing that anyone's ever done for you? The kindest thing anybody's ever given me is trust. Clients trust me with their biggest dreams. Crazy. When Tyler Perry comes to me and says, here's what I want to do, or Marty, or Larry David, or that's an incredible gift of kindness. And then same thing with Egon backing my play multiple times. And then I would just say to you, I have now in my life a great life. I never realized that before. I was just on the field. And I have a great second wife, Sarah Stonnier, who's got a great fashion business style. And I think I have great brothers, but I have four incredible kids. And that I'm a lucky guy. I love them and they love me. And as your kids get older, it's crazy to have these conversations with these things that are now adults. And they say to you and do things that are just beyond your imagination. And it is the nicest thing to see that happen in your life. From a kid for me, that they didn't think I was supposed to go to college. And that this life has happened for me and my parents were incredible. All those things collectively are the kindness that has happened. And there's plenty of times I was not deserving of it. I definitely was not. 'Cause I didn't realize how you're supposed to act and get off the field. - I absolutely love talking to you. I love your energy. - Thank you. - I appreciate your approach to the world. You're so distinct and interesting. Thank you so much for your time. - I really appreciate you. If you enjoyed this episode, visit joincolossus.com where you'll find every episode of this podcast complete with hand-edited transcripts. You can also subscribe to Colossus Review, our quarterly print digital and private audio publication featuring in-depth profiles of the founders, investors, and companies that we admire most. Learn more at joincolossus.com/subscribe. (upbeat music)