Ari Emanuel on his New Memoir, ‘Ragent’ Reputation, and Changing Hollywood

Ari was very sweet to me and he gave me a hat as I got in here, and it says rage, which I thought was very cute. And the note said, "I'll just read it really quickly for you." Oh, I can't find it. He basically said, "Thank you so much for doing this and if it doesn't go well, fuck you." Hi everyone, from New York Magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Cara Swisher and I'm Cara Swisher. My guest today is Ari Emanuel, Executive Chair and CEO of TKO and the Executive Chairman of the WME Group. We spoke in front of a live audience during an event hosted by Live Talks Los Angeles. His long history and Hollywood includes co-founding the talent agency Endeavor, then merging it with the William Morris Agency to create one of the largest talent representation firms in the country. He brought WWE and UFC together with his sports enterprise TKO and also founded the Live Events Company, Mari. His new memoir, Roll the Calls, is out now and actually it's about his agenting. He calls himself a "regient." Of course, you know him from the show, Entourage, Ari Gold, but it's not the same and actually it's a really gripping and interesting book that is, I think, unintended, quite painfully talking about himself and it's worth a read. Our expert question today comes from his famous brothers, Rom and Zeke Emanuel. Rom is a former mayor of Chicago and served as a White House Chief of Staff under President Obama. He was also the ambassador to Japan. Zeke is an oncologist, bioethicist and health policy expert at the University of Pennsylvania and served as a senior policy advisor in the Obama administration. Most importantly, they are his brothers. It's quite a trio and Ari is my least favorite Emanuel as I like to tell them. So stick around. [Music] Support for the show comes from Engine. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard, but if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. 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For informational purposes only, availability of products can vary and may be provided by different Ripple entities. Interrupted sleep, headaches, constant fatigue. For a lot of women, these aren't three separate issues. In perimenopause and menopause, they're often the same hormonal story. And you don't have to quietly push through. Midi can help. Because your symptoms have answers. Visit JoinMiddi.com with CodeVox right now to book your first visit today. That's JoinMIDi.com. CodeVox to book your first visit. JoinMiddi.com. CodeVox. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage. Ari, thanks for coming on on. Oh, thank you. So, we're going to start with all the fields at this top. But we're not going to be talking about the following. If you don't mind. We're not talking about Ari Gold. I don't give a fuck about him. Eating worms in your demented health regimen, which is just a way. I don't at all. I'm here when you die. You're manic travel schedule. I don't give a fuck about that. I don't. And the porn scene in the department. So, I'm sorry if you're here to hear about that. But we're not going to do that. But the first line here memoir is a Raoul Walsh quote. He's a director about work. In fact, how important it is. And doing the work, which is what I think this book is actually about. And I think this is a work drama more than anything else that you've done here about power and who hasn't, who doesn't, and how to get it essentially. I don't think it's about rage actually, even though you talk about rage all the time and at the beginning of the book. And I do think that is your, what I call a jazz hands brand. Like mine is being a spiky lesbian. Oh, my God, you're a spiky lesbian. I am indeed very quite spiky. But you lay it on thick and I'm going to quote you every story starts with rage and every story one way or another ends up there rage or be complicit. We fight and we fuck wrestling without rage is just cuddling. There is no little enemy history has been shaped by bad moods as much as good intentions. And of course, you coin the phrase, "ragent," which is what you are, "raging agent," I suppose. But talk about what has your tough guy facade enabled you to do over the course of your career? And how is it helped? Can I just say the following? So I think so. So Quarmac McCarthy, I think said rage is there for the things that you can fix. The rest is grief. And I think that actually kind of is me, you know, I would rather get to the rage and deal with the rage and try and find an identity because in my family. As you know, my brothers very well, there was the smart one, Ron, the artist, and the other one. And. And let me say in advance, I'm sorry for calling you my least favorite in manual. It's okay. They're great. Yes, they are great. Go ahead. So when you have that and you coming to the house and the grades go up and you're dyslexic and in my house that was important. Like from an immigrant father and a mother, you know, and so you get pissed off because you're not stupid. And you want to find your place and then work. I only had when I got out here with, and I came out here, my friend Pete Berg was out here. I had a plan A. There was no plan B. Right. And I would do anything for plan A because I wanted to have an identity and this thing for whatever reason, flip the switch in me. And there was no way I was going to let anybody stand in my way to getting to this place. And I didn't even know where it was. I just was like, one, I loved it. I was happy about it. It was difficult. But I had to get to my identity. And anything that stood in my way created rage. But why use the word rage and that and you were quote, I was fucking pissed. I was when somebody fucked with my own story in my head of the chess match I was playing to get to where I wanted to be. I like and wrestling. I didn't like that, dude. And that's what caused a lot of. But who precisely were you mad at in the first place? Well, that was that that took a lot of onion feeling, right? I didn't know what the beginning. That's when Dr. Calm came in. This is his therapist in the book. So it was it was I was just mad. I had no kind of destiny or person. And kind of I was looking for a place where I could be recognized as being really good. And also the rage came from I think my this is me being my own Dr. Calm. You know, not wanting to be discovered as the stupid brother, right? Or that somebody would discover that you're not smart. So when you're just battling in your own mind and it's a tough business anyway, you know, you you just work really hard. There's a lot of people standing in your way. And you have a place you think you want to get to true or imaginary. So bullying through is the way to do so. Yeah, that's how that's how I did it until the point in time I realized when we had endeavor, I couldn't get even farther with just rage and aggression. With people that worked for me that were loyal to me and loyal. So sometimes it manifested an actual violence like you hit someone with a lunch tray. No, that's why I was young. I mean, oh, wow, you know, you know, that's when I was making. Well, he was making here's the other thing. He was making fun of somebody because I was in special ed. And he was making fun of somebody right at somebody I knew. And you know, I asked him not to do it. Stop. And he decided not to do that. Right. So okay, there's only it's like picking up a chair and Michael was always there's only a one other play. Really? I'm going to kick the shit out of you. There wasn't a play of all poor Jello on your house or all slap you. Because that wasn't that wasn't that wasn't in the car. at that point. It wasn't. -Really? That wasn't a choice. -No. -But it's kind of a secret. - Depending on how this ends, if there's a lunch tray, you never know. -See? -No, you know that. -No, I don't care. You can try. I don't think you're gonna win a throwdown with the lesbian. I just don't think it's happening for you. You're a little guy. I know you're a wrestler, but I have moves myself. -Okay. -I have the richest man in the world calling me evil, so I'm good. Like, I'll be good with you. It'll be simple, although he's a lot slower and fatter. He doesn't move as fast. You're talking about your pal. But anyway, we'll get to him in a minute. But it's a kind of a speak truth to power, ma'am. And you make an argument in the book, which is really interesting, that anger negotiators are better, for example. But a person who trashed in the book, I'm not gonna tell you who it was 'cause there were so many, wrote to me, I'm offended as a member of the business world. It is spouses rage as positive behavior. How do you answer that? -Fuck him. [ Laughter ] -All right. I'd like to. -And he's full of shit. Whoever that one is, because I promise you, multiple people that you're talking about, in their own way, were rageful. Maybe they kept it in, and they were trying to present, "Fuck them, they're full of shit." I'm walking to the room, you know, exactly what you're gonna get, and I'm good with that. -Okay. -There's no. There's no kind of pretentious. Lights are on, guns are out, we're going. -Mm-hmm. -Actual gun. -That's me. -Okay. But answer that seriously. Is it positive behavior? Is it the best way to go about things? -Well, first of all, it's not always that way. -Right. -Yeah, there's many levels to trying to negotiate and get what you want. -Right, sure. -One of them is that way. -Yeah. -And you have to be backing it up. -Mm-hmm. -Great. Other ways. I wouldn't get to where I was if it was only rage. -Right, right, right, right. -I've got some other moves. -I understand that. -I'm just letting you know. -I know that. One of your moves is to call people incessantly, like you try to do with me. One thing I do to drive him crazy is I don't pick up. -Yeah. -And then I keep in text, right? -I don't like that. -I don't like that. I know, and even normal fucking person texts. -Okay. -But if texting existed, and then all of a sudden they created the phone, "Fuck, you can call somebody?" -Yeah. -That would be the cool thing. -Yeah, I don't pick up. I'm still like, dude. And the problem is he's sat in his corner. -That was not my line. You know who's lying? That was Ron Myers. -Okay. But I thought this memoir actually reveals a lot about you, some of which might be unintentional. This is what I thought was I was reading. I recently told Scott Galloway on Pivot that it was accidentally thoughtful. [ Laughter ] What do you think? That's funny. What do you think this is? -I love that you laugh at yourself. -I do, it was funny. -Cracking yourself off. -Well, I'm funny. So, what do you think it divulges about you? And I think it's a more interesting story in how soft you might be, actually. And I thought that your ghost writer, J.R. Moring, or got a lot out of you. -Here's how I live my life. You know, like in computers, it was called RSI. Is it where they're the computer, we're afraid of A.I. or S.I., whatever the fuck they're calling it now. -Yeah, we're not calling it now. -Right, we're gonna call it A.I., right? Galloway Trump just named it S.I. versus A.I. -Right. Whatever. Okay. Recursive self-improvement. And I think that's dangerous for S.I.A.I. But for humans, and this is what I try and do, and that I think this is what my parents taught us, me and my brothers. You know, you want to live a meaningful life, as opposed to just a pleasurable life, and a meaningful life that has a purpose that actually does bring you pleasure. And to do that, you have to constantly be working on yourself and trying to get better, and through all the mistakes you make, and I've made up a lot, and hopefully tell them what they are. And so I have tried, Ariana haven't sent me this article about R.S.I. reflect the self-improvement in computers and that we should do it as humans. And it kind of struck me that, yeah, that's kind of how I've lived my life. And I hope to get. I'm not there yet. I'm gonna work until the end to get there, to constantly get better. I hope I have two of my four kids here. I've become a better father. I think I've become, maybe not this last two weeks, with my beautiful wife, a better husband, and a better person in a relationship. And I hope that I've become a better leader and partner to people in my company. And that's not a soft side. That's just somebody trying to get better. You know, soft is not a bad word, but I actually think it was there from the beginning. There's bits of it that get revealed that I'm not strong. Well, here's what I would say to you is, I'm a rider-die guy with people that I like, unless you turn around and try and do something stupid. And you don't ever have to worry if I'm gonna be there for you. I'm gonna be right next to you. I'm gonna be in front of you. I'm gonna be doing everything to help you. And that's how my parents brought us up is three boys together. And they gave us our morals. And when I'm in a relationship, you don't have to worry whether I'm in that relationship and that goes all the way back. I get that, but it's more of a. For example, the Robbie Lance part. You're gonna do Ari, right? Right. He had this Austrian accent. Austrian accent. Clearly got to you in a way that was really interesting. I'm not sure if it was a cautionary tale of how not to end up, or perhaps somewhat of a doomed love letter to this guy. Talk a little bit about that relationship because you clocked him right away. He taught me, you know, and I was like a sponge. He taught me the beginnings of what it meant to be an agent. And people called you back because of who you represented. And that wasn't a bad thing. And if you lost them in this game, it's part of the game you just have to accept it. And it was just some lovely principles. And he was just a really nice man. And he treated me well. And he let me kind of experiment. But he was just a great beginning kind of teacher of the business. And when, you know, Michael would stole Al Pacino and then put him in revolution. And exactly. And it was okay. And he got that. And he said, you know, I'm not going to do anything. I'm too old to go out. And he said a meeting through Bill Haber to go there to go there. But you did not conduct your career like this mentor of yours. No, because I would, I didn't have those moves. I had my moves. Right. And I'm not trying to be anybody else. I'm just trying to be me. And, you know, everybody's got their own stick. Did his kindness scare you? Because you didn't want to end up like that? No, no, no, not at all. No. And then I went to a place where you had guys that are on Mount Rushmore. I mean, Michael was on Mount Rushmore of this business. And he was incredible. And Ron Meyer was incredible. I remember we all had to go to a screening. And I think it was on Beverly and Fairfax. It was a theater there. So we all piled into that theater. I'm sitting in the middle, movie comes on. I don't remember who the filmmaker was, what the movie was. And it was a piece of shit, that movie. We were sitting there and I'm like, what the fuck? I walked out. There's Mike Owitz. There's Ron Meyer talking to the filmmaker. And these guys were gods to me. And he's pitching it in. Ron, he says to him, incredible. He goes, this is bigger than ET. And I'm like, holy fuck, that guy's good. And you just, you had Robbie Lance who had his style. And then you see these guys. And you just had to read about Mike, who was incredible. And Ronnie was incredible. And I learned under Bill Haber, incredible. And they just had a different style. And then I just got my style. Your style. So one of the big themes, because I thought the Robbie Lance part was very touching in a lot of ways. And I was surprised. I touched you. Well, try not to. Okay. Literally, Ari called me up once and said, "Who would you rather fuck, Elon or me?" I thought it was a pretty cool question. You paused. And you're still pausing. I'm never going to answer that question. Gigi and Ping. So one big theme. Imagine. One big theme is lack of permanence and feeling unsettled. There's a very unsettled feeling in this book, which I thought was really interesting, how nothing is enough. And you wrote, "We cling to the illusion of safety." I'd like you to talk about that, because of course it has links to your dyslexia, which seems to be driving your bus even today. A lot less. A lot less. But driving the bus really had a lot to do with what you do. There was a period of time. Dr. Com goes to me, and I definitely was struggling with this, being discovered, thinking, "People are going to realize I'm stupid." "I can't do this." And Dr. Com says to me, he says, "You know, people that were really good in business, were considered really smart. And I was like, wow, I'm kind of dealing with my mom and dad and my impression of them and how they thought about me. And then, I don't know if it was before or after, I think it was after that, like a couple of months, my mom and dad fly in. My dad and his heavy Israeli accent asking me questions, I'm telling them, and we had just taken over William Morrison. (clears throat) Merged. And, um, and, um, and, uh-- There's no such thing as a merger. No such thing. Yeah. And, um, I tell them everything going on. And I think it was my dad. He goes, "Well, who does all that?" And I go, "Well, it's not fucking Rom and it's not fucking Zeke." Right? So that was my life, you know, with these people. And they loved me to death. But, you know, they never, one, they didn't understand it, and two, was like, you know, it was part one, the artist, and the other one. The other one. Yeah. And they think they finally got it at the end. They kind of realized between all this. So it was a lifetime of proving to that that you weren't? And, you know, I said on occasion, just wanting a little bit more love than my brother's got. Just a teeny bit on occasion. And that's a hell of an engine. Yeah, it is. It's often not a great one, actually. But it's, you know-- You know, one of my premises about a lot of people in tech is they didn't get hugged enough as children. And, unfortunately, we're living their pain. All of us are. But-- This is not a commentary about your life. I'm just telling you, okay. It has a lot of fuel. It has a lot of fuel in terms of that-- Well, it definitely drove me. Right. And that drive, and that little moment, was to prove my identity. Right. Which is an ongoing struggle. Right. I recall Sergei Brin. Well, less now. Sergei Brin's mother, who was a physicist, was at a party, was she was there, and she's sort of a little Russian woman. And they were about to go public. And she said, I said, you must be so proud of your son. And she looks at me, she goes, he didn't get his PhD. Yeah, when I was-- I come home, I'm working for Robbie. I come home. I have three days. I get to Chicago. My brothers are there. I could have gone to Northwestern and worked at the stock market at Merck. And I tell them, I'm going to go work in the mail room for a $0.15 a mile. I don't know if people understand what that means. I think you had a base of $200 or $250. And then every mile, you would clock, and you would have to write down your miles. You'd get $0.15 at the end of the week. You would make money. And people were living together. And at the beginning, I was living at a couch for eight months. And I would take all the food, because he wasn't working. And I would take all the food that was in the condom and bring him also, we could eat at night. But the level of both my brothers, my parents, they just couldn't comprehend this. And my brothers were like mailing me. And so it made you the way he works. So you didn't feel safe in that regard. I don't know if the word was safe. I just knew, again, I said, I didn't have plan B. It was just plan A. We'll be back in a minute. Support for the show comes from Framer. If you want to create a website that looks great, feels handcrafted and comes together fast and seamlessly, then look no further than Framer. It's a complete website platform, not just a builder, so teams can lodge and keep improving their sites in one place. It helps creators, teams, and businesses ship production ready sites faster than ever, while getting every detailed right. 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Visit fourherz.com/cara to access personalized affordable care for weight loss, hair, menopause, and more. That's for hers.com/cara. Individual results may vary and stopping treatment may result in weight regain. - One of the things you talk about is having to endure, and this is quote, "Countless and sufferable assholes and imbussoles." You're right, I want to live my life to mean something, and it cannot ever mean anything if I'm under the thumb of dumbasses. Talk about why you always seem to be that in that way. You start off with some people who start okay, and then you park with them. They become dumbasses in some fashion. And we'll get into some specifics later. I peel out too. I have this whole thing, is I often look at someone and say, "I think you're stupid, I need to leave." Because I think you're a dumbass or a chucklehead is my latest thing. Talk about that ability to look at someone and say, "I can't be with you because." - Well, I was sitting there at ICM, and they had between Mel Gibson and Julia Roberts, and unbelievable directors and unbelievable television shows and packages, and once we had merged, it became a two-horse race between ICM and CIA. And I'm just looking at it, and there's Sam Cohn, there's Jeff Berg, Jim Wyatt. It's completely not functional. And it stands for, at the time everybody internally was making fun of it, it stands for I cover myself. I'm in all these meetings, I'm like, "What the fuck am I doing here?" And then I get hit by the car. And we talked about backstage, you had this experience in your own situation, and I wiggle my fingers and wiggle my toes, and I say to myself, "Life's not a dress rehearsal." And then at 32 or 31, whatever it was, and you think you're invincible, and then you realize you're not, it could end. And so I'm looking at this, I'm like, I did six months of rehab to get the surgery, had the surgery in another eight months after the surgery, and I'm like, "I'm not doing this." I'm not, that was the moment, I'm not doing this, and I saw the world changing, television, business, and changing, and I was just like, "I'm not working for these imposals, I'm just not gonna do it, it's just too short, or too long now, to do this." And my father went nuts, 'cause they, I was in my contract year, they were offering me a million dollars. You, "Pisher, who do you think you are?" You're like, "I take a million dollars." And I said, "Dad, I think I could do this." And you know, a million dollars was like crazy for him. And so I just looked at him and I'm like, "There's no chance." - Because they were more odds. - Jeff Berg was not a moron. - But the situation-- - And let's be very clear. As an agent, before Mike Govitt picked him apart and Ron Meyer picked him apart, Sam Cohn was a legend. He was incredible. He did eat a lot of paper, right? He ate paper. He ate everything on his desk, but-- - Says the man who eats worms, but go ahead. - He ate paper. - He ate worms, but go ahead. - He ate paper. - Okay. (audience laughs) Healthier, okay. - Okay, so what I'm saying is I just realized, I'd come from inter-town and I'd seen CAAN. I realized if we were gonna how we wanted to do it, and Tom Strickler was incredible, and David Greenblatt and Rick Rosen. And so we just started. - You just left. - It takes a lot. I mean a lot. - And they made a huge mistake. You know, we have four of nobody's. - Yeah. - We leave, and they blow it up as if it's like a coup. - Right. - And-- - Making you more important. - Yeah, it was crazy. - Yeah, I think one of the things I noted, and I appreciate about you, is your bad employee. As am I, which is why I leave, instead of being a whining bitch about it, you just go and do your own thing. Now, speaking of assholes, according to you, by late '80s, you worked your way up to becoming this agent at CAA and gotten a huge blow up with the agency's co-founder, Mike Ovitz, when he found out you were leaving to start something new. As I noted, you literally picked up the chair and threatened to destroy his office. I'm guessing you probably wouldn't have done that. Every episode, we get a question from an outside expert, but we have two for you. Here's the first from Mr. Ovitz himself. - Mr. Emmanuel, what an honor for you to take my question. And I must say, it is so great that you are doing one of my favorite, favorite podcasts with Ms. Swisher, who is so smart. My question, Mr. Emmanuel, it's very simple. What kind of advice would you give to a young, energetic man like me who wants to follow in your footsteps and start a business from the ground up? I very much appreciate what you're about to say, even though I haven't heard it, because I know from history and following your career, it's gonna be great. - He has Laryn Gitis, so go ahead. What would you advise for to give a young man like Mr. Ovitz? - Well, you have to be in business with people that you actually like and trust and you believe in and they believe in you. And you have to create a culture where you lead by being in front of a line. And now, different from then, it wouldn't be a culture of fear. - Which you thought that was at the time? - Well, his was. - Yeah. - Did it work? - Oh yeah, incredibly. But it, and for whatever reason, I think you want to be in a place where any idea can be discussed. And I think at the beginning of my career, it's one of the things I didn't do that well because I was just running too hard. I didn't kind of have a collective thought with people that were younger than me and et cetera in the company. Now, I think, I think that's different. - So you allow, you don't want to do a culture of fear, it's a culture of not fear, you don't think. - I was pretty bad coming in on Monday mornings. - Now, you eventually led you to merger with WMA, which you did with Patrick Whitesell. I think the most interesting part about that was sort of the sus justifications around and the numbers that were not quite there. The numbers weren't as good as you thought they were going to be. - We were merged. - Yeah, when you merged. - So we did it in 2008, 2009. We paid Jim White and Irvine Trab, a total of 44 million. And then we lost the lawsuit for the building they bought for 35 million. And then they were down on their numbers 'cause for six months, we were merging. And they were down about $20 million. And then we had to pay bonuses of about $25 million. So we were fucked. In '08, '09, when the world was, my brother's in the White House, and all I remember him saying, you know, it's tipping. And so yeah, it was horrible. - And when you thought about that merger, you went from being an agent to an owner. - Yeah. - Talk about why that was important because the agency was the means to be coming out. - Well, here's what happened. So we merged, Jim leaves, Irv leaves, new board. And then I think it was a 2011, 2010. I think it was. Teddy Forreston gets sick and passes away who was a guy I knew and he had just bought IMG. And I was running all over the world, trying to put money together so that we could buy IMG because I wanted not only the motion picture, television, music, books, theater, commercials apartment. I wanted all the sports and then the live events. And before that, in '08, I started, when the world coming down, I brought Joe Rabbits and Jeff Sinagato and I created a ring. And in that, I read an article about Mark Andreessen. He had just started Andreessen, Harvard. And I said, "Yeah, I'd like to meet you." I thought you were interesting. He says, "I'll fly to meet you." And I said, "I'll fly to you." And he came in. We started talking. And I thought he would be a great name inside the ring that we could then raise money off of his name if we had him. And so he flies down. He says, "Can I come have lunch with you?" We go and lunch at the grill. Then he says, "I want to buy into you and I want to go after IMG." And I turned to him. I said, "There's no fucking way a PE firm is going to get us." I've had all these conversations with PE firm. He goes, "Give me your numbers." I'll come back in three weeks. He did. And he made an offer. I hadn't a negotiating, even though I could assign an offer. And that just started one of the great relationships all the time. And that's kind of in a weird way. I like to say that either I love puzzles and my former mother-in-law turned us on to puzzles from stays. I call it creating serendipity. I'll read something, I'll call somebody that will lead to something. A lot of my relationships start that way. But you didn't want to stay in the agency servicing others. You wanted to be impressed. I love the agency business. I'm still in the agency business. I'm dealing with Aaron Sorkin's movie and I'm dealing with my best friend Pete Berg's movie. I'm in the agency, Tyler Perry this morning, for sure. But the great thing about the agency business and what we had with IMG, we had created all the services you need. Distribution, production, licensing. Everything that you needed, if you owned what I wanted to do, a sports asset. And so the next step after IMG and doing all the deals internationally for sports rights and doing all the license fees here, I knew what you had to do is then put a property on there and then came to UFC. (upbeat music) We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Indeed. When the pressure's on and you need to hire the right person for the job, Indeed Sponsored Jobs has got your back. 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Support for the show comes from Engine. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard. But if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. Book a trip and as little as two and a half minutes, earn up to 10% back on hotels. And in 2025, engine customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join Engine every month. Midi can help because your symptoms have answers. Visit joinmidi.com with codevox right now to book your first visit today. That's joinmidi.com. Joinmidi.com, codevox. So one of the things I was thinking about when I met you was you started to do a lot of tech stuff. We talked about Mark Andreessen, but speaking of mergers, As you're advising David Ellison of the Paramount, Warner Bros. Merger, talk, I want, and I don't want you to go on about it, 'cause I know he loves movies, got it. (audience laughs) Talk about this settlement, and I know you need four bitters, got it, got it. Okay, sure, why not? But these are tech people. It's a tech person and the son of a tech person, essentially. Talk about why you think it's a good idea for Hollywood. Let's use this as an example, let's tech people. - Why do you think it's a bad idea? - I don't think it's a bad or good idea, consolidation. I think you should grow through innovation, not consolidation. - I think you're both ways. - I guess, but it seems like a lazy rich person who I'm doing so. - Okay, great, and I think when-- - It's also non-economic the way it looks right now. - That's your opinion, right? And there's other people that will go through numbers and show you why it's not, and that will be a discussion that you've got. - Yeah, and about a year, I'll be absolutely correct. - So go ahead. - So go ahead. - I think we should have everybody back in one year, and we'll have this conversation. - Yeah, I remember when David Zazlov told me that debt wasn't wrong. - That's a different conversation. That's a different conversation. - Yeah. - At the beginning, when Netflix started, then everybody had a direct-to-consort business. - Right. - Everybody was talking about Wall Street in the world that there had to be consolidation. So three, four years later, we had consolidation. - Because the economics doesn't work. But on the other hand, only having one and a half bitters, maybe two and a half bitters with Disney, and Amazon is a platform that people can be on, and also make their own stuff. - Sure. - You need for the buying community, I mean, for the selling community, you need more. You need, because the definition of monopoly is when you're making a deal, and that person that you're making a deal with says, oh, how much are you making on advertising at the UFC? After that point, we want 5% because of us. So having been an owner and realizing those conversations, depending on how big you are and how much leverage you have, that's not a good thing for anybody in the creative community. - So that's why I want more bidders. - I want more bidders so that my clients and my competitor clients can have more power in the market. - Are you at all worried, one about the debt, to about the implications of CNN? I know you suggested the nonsensical editorial board. - No, but here's what I'm going to say to you about that. - No, you're wrong. - No, no. - You don't even know what the fuck I'm going to say. - I know what you're saying. - No, you don't, go ahead. - So. - Tell me, non-Jones. - I want to ask you a question. - Yeah. - So you're nervous that he's going to reach down to CNN, and he's going to put his point of view in CNN. - No, I'm nervous that he's more on about media, but go ahead. - Okay, so I just come 100% to figure that out. - Okay. - Here's a guy that let John Stewart do what he did, and he and John Stewart has been banging away at the president and the administration. Matt and Trey on Saraswark have been incredible. - Right, these are the examples he used. - Yeah, and he had somebody in late night for one year, 'cause if he really wanted to stop them from talking, it would just yank them off. Even though that is as funny as he is, late light is losing approximately $15 million. I don't think he's going to do anything as it relates to reaching down and putting his hand on that situation. - I don't. - I think it's very easy to talk about political interference. What it is is someone who doesn't fundamentally understand media suggesting editorial board. Journalists don't need money, they need competent managers. - And I think they have one. - And Mark. - Yes, if that continues. - Right. - Are you here to tell us that's going on? - I don't know. - Yeah. - You'll wait and see. - Yeah. - Mark is a really talented executive. - Guy who runs CNN. - He's incredible. Came from the BBC, New York Times. He's great. - So what? - And we're waiting for his proposal. - So the two things I think I'm more focused on is I don't think they will necessarily, it's that they could. And there have been many credible reports about pleasing Trump. And there's obvious, obsequious suck-up behavior. - I just told you in three instances that that is a false narrative. - But those are people who are there before. - But if he wanted to, he could have taken Colbert off late night. - Yeah. - He let them there for a year. John has been pounding away and that whole show has been pounding away rightfully. So has South Park been hysterically funny, has not done anything. - All right, those are three comedy shows. I would wonder. - The ones they do are kind of hidden on news, different way to form news. And the way news is perceived and accepted from a generation. - I don't know. - I would rather. - You just don't have an argument. What you just hate to say yes to me. - No, I don't. - I don't. - It's okay, say yes. - I've watched what's happened and the things you know what I would do. - I would do. - They're incompetent. - So here's where you and I. - Here's where you and I are different. - Here. - I don't want to say. - I think John Masses and I don't want to work with them. - Okay. - Here's my point. - Well, this is your own business. You could just do this. - That's correct. - That's why I have one of this. - So I would say to you the following. - I don't want to live in an echo chamber, I've said this. - I know, you have said this. - And I don't want, just because I'm friends with people, doesn't mean I agree with them or abide by what they say. So I would rather like with you, we have great discussions. You actually, I don't want to give you any props, but you actually influence me and you make me think about stuff. I think the same is true that you can have a conversation and influence, David. He is that guy that you can talk to, knowing him for 10 years, representing him. - You worried at all that a lot of Hollywood creatives, thousands publicly opposed the merger and the people in favor tend to be very wealthy, including a group that includes foreign investors, Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Qatar. - Right. - They hold almost half the company owners. - I don't think, I think we will see in a little bit of time, he's gonna do, he said it and put it in the document, 30 movies, 170 series, spending 30 billion to 31 billion dollars a year. Fantastic, great for the community. - What if it doesn't come to pass? - What if my Bubby hasn't bearded? (laughter) - That's not the same, that's the cute line, but it's kind of, what if, I don't know? - Yeah, and you trust these people to do that. - I believe in David, a lot. - Okay. - Okay, we'll see what happens. I'm not gonna argue with you, you're wrong. So what, you do say the movie business is never dying and that people have always overreacted to change, but LA County has lost 57,000 entertainment jobs in the last four years, productions filmed in California, been in steady decline. - Well, it's a different conversation. It's nothing to do with David. - Well, he's promising to help, he first he threatened to leave and then-- - That's a negotiation. - I understand, but it was stupid. It was also dumb. - Whatever, whatever. - You got what he, I mean, he won. - Won? - He got what he wanted. - Yeah. - Okay, I think he looks like a different one. - Okay, but it's a dumb threat. - Okay. - He won. - It makes me think he's dumber. Okay, whatever. - He won. - Fine, great, good for him. Yay. Wow, a rich kid just got richer, I'm so pleased for him. - From your point of view, he's in daddy's never gonna come out of that. - Actually, he got poor. - Yeah, that's true, that's true. - All right, so pick a side. - Okay. (audience laughs) - I have picked a side. You should let me know where I wanna go. So, what happens next after this? - Because these are all really economically challenged businesses here in California, particularly, and the movie industry, which you know. - Oh, it's one of the things I'm trying to do. I'm trying to get a rebate. First of all, that this state has not imposed what Atlanta has or any of the other states is insane. - It's just crazy. I mean, I had productions that had to move to Atlanta. It's just not right. I'm trying to get President Trump and I've been on a phone with Adam Schiff. I've been on a phone with King Jeffries. I'm trying to get a call with Senator Scott and leader Schumer about getting the tax rebate for the country. And I think it has a really good shot, probably in lame doc to get passed. And then I think we all, with the next governor, have to really work hard to put a serious plan in place to get a rebate here. And then they sit on top of each other and then I think production will stay. And I think everybody wants that. - Certainly, but one of the problems, of course, is, many of the owners will be tech owners, people like the Alessons who can afford this, these yachts. Now, AI has put them under siege. It's very clear. More, there's 130 lawsuits have been brought against open AI, Google, Amazon, Meta, XAI, Proplexity, NVIDIA, Suno, and other developers. - What's there to do with my book? - I want to know, how you think about AI, because you're thinking about what's coming next. - Here's what I'm thinking about. So I think, in 2016, I believe sports was gonna go where we were the crazy that we bought UFC the highest price of all time and now it looks cheap. And I believe sports is still up and to the right. - Right. - Live is up and to the right. Sports, music, and events. Start a live investment business. I also think, my youngest, I have my two, my middle son, my eldest son, no one, Ezra, are here. My youngest son and my middle son said, "Dad, you know what they call Thursday?" They call it baby Friday. So I believe, if you look at hotel reservations, travel times, a bunch of data, Thursday night, people are starting to go out and they're coming in late on Monday. So you have a lot of free time and if AI won't. works. Let's go with that premise. And we get GDP up to three to three and a half percent. We're going to be out of a deficit and there's going to be, like, you're going to have a lot more free time. We're going to be consuming and consuming a lot of entertainment live, but also with AI, as we've just saw in some of the box office movies, it's going to become cheaper. And there's going to be a lot more content out there. There's going to be a lot more content is going to be defined in a lot more ways. You're going to have micro dramas, your socials going to be big. It's just going to be a great number of pieces of content being created. And I think that's just great for all of us and it's going to be at a price. Now, there is going to be some dislocation. Some people are going to lose their jobs. I think it's always happened with technology. That's not a good thing. But I think there's going to be a lot more content. And I think that's a great thing for our community and for creative people. As Steve Jobs once said, humans were the slowest movers across the land. And then the bike came in. And with their legs, they moved. And I think AI is going to help us in entertainment. So you look at AI as helping humans and not killing, have a 10th or so chance of killing us. I'm hoping that that is the case. With the current pinky promise in Washington, I'm nervous about it. Right. But I do think if we could put some guardrails in it, it could be incredible. Let's go back to your book then, because one of the things, I mean, we could talk about you calling Barry Diller just a mullage of old farts and bad ideas. Well, he's just not relevant anymore. Oh, he's very smart. He's not relevant. He's still very smart. Okay. Okay, whatever. What's he smart about? So here's what he said. Here's what he said. He said during COVID, the movie business was dead. And then he tried to buy Paramount. I mean, shut the fuck, pick a lane. Yeah, okay. It's not trying to be irrelevant. Yeah. Okay. All right. Because you've never been wrong, Ari. No, I've been wrong a lot. I actually pointed out in the book. Yes, I know. I actually been wrong a lot. Yes, I know. And you said Jeffrey Katzenberg makes everyone yawn and look like a boy. Look at the time. You called Katzenberg a glad-handing phony and a fucking puss. You compared him to a golden retriever. I know, a golden retriever was better. Something about. [laughter] Something about some stupid basketball tickets. No, here's what happened. I'm gonna give it to you. He. When we were starting. We were starting out trying to take advantage of us in economics. You wanted to take it. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay. Move on past that. The thing that really upset me. Yeah. He calls me up. Now remember, my brother worked in the administration of Obama and Biden. Because I can get you in to see Biden. You think I fucking need you to get me in to see Biden? Especially if I'm writing a check for a million dollars. Right, okay. And then he gives us Biden, which a lot of us need. A year before was screaming Ruth Bader Biden. And he said I could do all these things with Biden. I can do all these things in Karen Bass. And then the election's over. I don't wanna talk about politics. How about fuck you, asshole? You're the one that was pushing this so hard. You didn't do anything a year beforehand to get him out. And you actually said you had the ability to talk to him and get him out. Where the fuck were you? No tests. Interesting because I've noticed Trump sleeps a lot during events. Have you done anything to get him out? Sleeping president? Someone who has cognitive, obvious cognitive issues? I'm just curious. You're right there. I deal with him what I want. And I actually had the conversations when I disagree with him. Okay, but are you worried about his cognitive abilities? You should talk to my brother. He's a doctor. I'm talking to you. You know, those are medical issues that you should talk to him about. Yeah, but I'm talking about conversations with him. Yeah. He's very, he's on it a lot. Oh. And he'll follow up a lot. So I'm sorry to say that for me and my interaction with him, that doesn't exist. Okay, so you don't think it's a similar thing? I don't. Okay, all right. So one of the things I wanna finish up on, there's two things I wanna finish up on. One is obviously Elon Musk now. In the vein of, he just, it was at your weekend, the weekend thing. He talked about space. Talked about space. I heard it. It was very impressive. In that vein, no, I did. I actually am being serious. It was. In that vein. And I think yesterday it was pretty, was it yesterday? Yeah. Yeah. It was impressive. Much of the way. Yeah. And after, I like the space stuff. I don't have a problem with the space stuff. But in the vein of telling our narratives in the Mel Gibson Fervor, you wrote, I'm realizing that I have a platform. And this scandal has me thinking about how I wanna use it. What do I wanna use it for? And against. How do you make those judgments? And why do you, you know, you make a hobby of making friends with, you basically study. I have a lot of relationships because I can actually talk to a lot of people. You call them your professors. And then you go back in the books. One of the things that, when I talk to Elon, he gives me pretty good insight where he thinks the world's going. It's helped me in business when going after the UFC. Starting my events business. He has been pretty profound in kind of how he sees the world going. And he's given me. No, he hasn't. Go ahead. What the fuck was that? I don't know. Yeah. It's Elon, probably. So, yeah, I mean, he's been pretty good in kind of laying out where he sees the world going. That enables me to kind of figure out in business where I could be. I'm wondering if Mel Gibson rubbed you the wrong way why Elon doesn't. I don't always agree with Elon, and I actually get it. I understand. Get into conversations with him. I'm not talking about disagreements. I'm talking about statements about white people, black people. I actually got into a very heated conversation with him and actually hung up the phone on him. Okay. But you went on a real limb from Mel Gibson's statements. I want to understand what the difference is. Mel Gibson went on a rant about women, black people, Jews, and then did it again. Elon and has done very good things and things that I disagree with. Right. And also, I hate to fool you. I've also matured and how I deal with people and how I interact with people. Okay. And I don't think he's ever used the N word or any of those words. But maybe I'm maybe Elon you're telling me has. White's are a rapidly dying minority. Anyone raising a baby as trans is guilty of extreme child abuse. If I were black, starling, I disagree with them on those things. And I tell them those things. I'm just curious how it's different. Why is it different than Mel Gibson? In my mix, it's different. Not that I want you to be fair to Mel Gibson, particularly. But what is the difference? Where's your line for you? There's no line. I wish I could say there's black and white. You know when you're mature enough to know we are living in grade constantly. Okay. For some reason only white characters are race swapped. Why is that? I don't know. I mean, these are pretty. I've never heard those. He says them. Okay. He says them all the time. I just wanted to understand where you decide to speak up when you don't. I want to end on. You know, I'm not sitting there with a microscope and everything he says I actually have a life. I understand that. Okay. All right. All right. I know you're in that microscope. I'm not in a microscope. I'm like, if you say it's interesting who we decide to let go and who we don't. That's just my feeling. And I want to know what yours is. And I think you said -- Actually with Mel Gibson, he and I had a conversation where I think he actually did a lot of work. And I said, you know, something when Mark Wahlberg said I want to put them in and one of my movies. I said you should because he's actually done a lot of work and he's actually done himself work. Right. I thought it was great. Right. I understand that. But one of the things you said in your book is I tell Larry David on election night. I can't fight anymore. He laughs since when I tell him I'm serious. I have a -- I can't have a beef with half my friends. I can't hate half my country. Yeah. How does anybody get back now? From you? I don't know. I mean, from me? For you and the rest of it. Well, I would just say to you as well. From the rage, I guess. You know, I want to live in a society. And in a society, you have to get in the ring, have to talk to people. And you have to have the conversation. And they're going to sway you a little bit sometimes and you're going to sway them. And that's where I want to live. And that's how I want to live my life. Because that's the only way this country is going to get out of the polarization that you can't talk to anybody on the other side and move forward. And we need that desperately for the consequences. Do you imagine we can get rid of the rage? Because rage is what has happened now. Listen. Which is your brand? I'm hoping that we can. Hopefully we get a good leader in the White House. That's a Democrat that can kind of cross the arm. All right. My last thing. Speaking of family. Here are two more outside experts, Zeke and Rahm Emanuel, with another expert question for you. Ha ha ha ha. Question is, we should ask. All right. All right. What we should do is make sure that next time he takes the lower bunk, not the upper bunk. Simple question. Are you in both your professional and personal life? What was the mistake you made? Or setback? And what did you learn from it? And how have you applied it subsequently to avoid making similar mistakes in the future? Second question. What advice would Ari Emanuel give Ari gold to improve his business and his personal life? Good luck, Ari. Well, proud of you. We love you. It's a great book. Monday through Friday, we love you. I don't know, it's not even Sunday. Not so much. - Notice how Zeke read the book and Ram has a read the book. - Right, that's correct. - Yeah. - All right, what do you answer your question? - I don't remember what the questions were. - They asked what advice would Arimane will give to Ari Gold and what would you do to avoid making similar mistakes? - I think at the time Ari Gold did a great job. It was hysterical. I've now started to watch the show. - I know that, I understand that. I probably wouldn't have taken the phone into the marriage counselor. I don't remember doing that. I may have done that. I probably did it more. - But what advice would you give to yourself if you're looking at that? That's, I think, what you're going to say. - You know, I mean, I guess the thing is, I would have enjoyed it more. I don't think I enjoyed it more. I don't think I branch old who's a friend and some of it works. He goes, you know, you never like to celebrate the wins. And I'm just, I'm just moving on. I don't like doing that. And maybe that was how we grew up. And I think my wife would tell me I still don't celebrate them enough. But I'm enjoying my life. I'm happy-ish. I'm satisfied-ish. - Wow. - Yeah, exactly. You know, my son Noah said to me on a plane ride, he was in high school and he goes, the thing is the sophomore he goes to my ex-wife and he goes, can't we just be normal? I'm like, who the fuck wants to be normal? And what the fuck is the definition of normal? - So I don't know what happy is, I'm so much happier now. I wish I would have enjoyed it more back then, even though it was painful, great. And I'm really happy now that I'm in this place. It's still getting better and still working on it. - So that's an excellent answer. So you use it as a trick. There's a lot asking people when you're trying to get them to do something. Are you happy, are you? - Yeah. Now are you asking me? - Yeah. - I just answered that fucking question. - Yeah. - Yeah, I'm happy. I'm happy-ish. - And what would make you happier? - To be healthy, continue to do this. Seeing my kids just be unbelievably prosperous, they're on their way to, and seeing the agency that I started, and the people there take it over and just grow it way past. And the two businesses I have now that I'm completely involved with, who knows, just be on that great ride. - Ah, so you are soft. (laughing) Are you manual? - Thank you. (audience applauding) - Today's show was produced by Vicki Virgolina, Michelle Aloy, Catherine Milsob, Megan Bernie, and Madeline LaPlanet-Duby. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts, special thanks to list of so-up, Olivia Briley, Rose Marie Ho, Jim McEl, Manolo Marino, and live talks Los Angeles. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Riquan, and our theme music is by Tracademics. If you're already following the show, you don't have to eat a cup of worms tomorrow morning. If not, you'll never eat lunch in this town again, at least with Ari, Emanuel, and thank God for that. Go every list in a podcast, search for on with Cara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Cara Swisher from Podia Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more. (upbeat music) - Support for the show comes from engine. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and start traveling at engine.com/box. In Perry, Menopause, and Menopause, they're often the same hormonal story. Mitty can help because your symptoms have answers. Visit joinmitty.com with CodeVox right now to book your first visit today. That's joinmyd.com, CodeVox to book your first visit. Joinmitty.com, CodeVox. Hank joined BJ's wholesale club. The day he became a father of 30. I coach football. Now coach Hank saves up to 25% off gross restore prices, 30 pounds of pasta, three cases of protein bars, 75 sports drinks, and that's just pregame. 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