Ari Emanuel, Matt Damon's Odyssey Stunt Double & Craziest Assistant Story

It is Wednesday, October 21st. Welcome to AV Live. We have a big episode today featuring Arimanule and many more. But first, we had an event last Sunday, AV Live, IRL for the very first time in LA. 750 of you packed the iconic wheelchair, including students from over 28 universities. We had execs from WME, from CAA, Ryan Kugler's proximity, as well as the most scary man in Hollywood, where at least his movies are the most frightening, Jason Blom, we wanted to roll a little clip with some advice that he dropped on our audience. Ross, take it away. What are the traits that you look for when you're hiring people? I would just be very cautious taking advice from anyone, me or anyone in my generation. Like, this is a business unlike so many other businesses. It's a business really that is driven by your generation, by young people, by your taste, by what you feel, what you want to do, who are people at parties or people that you're meeting that you're impressed with, that you think it'd be good if you're a director and you need a producer, or you need a writer, or whatever. It's much better to look laterally than looking north. And I thought that was very good advice. - We have Arimanule joining AV Live. He doesn't need much of an intro, but we're going to give him one. He has wrapped the likes of Larry David, of Martin Scorsese of Oprah. He was also the big dog boss when I was at WME, when I started in the mail room, our music central. He's the executive chair and CEO of TKO, the executive chairman of WME Group and the founder, principal investor of Mari. Welcome to the show, Arimanule. - I love the phrase was, which I actually do appreciate. - 'Cause there's other people now doing it. - You still doing all the things. We talked before you got on. So I think you're at the office right now. What give us, can we get a little office? What's your favorite thing in the office? - I was just actually saying, I have five small Mark Bradfords. I'm on the eighth floor, which is where the music department is. So it's funny walking around the music department. And 'cause they're doing work on my office, the section of the building that I'm in, that will be done in a couple months. But I'm kind of, I never got up close in personal when I bought these and I'm now up close in personal and they're incredible. - We actually have a couple of them back here. I think these might be worth a little more. These are memes. But are you in the eighth floor? - 'Cause you knew that I worked on the eighth floor and spent my four and a half years up there? - I was, I've been trying to follow you my whole career. I'm so happy I got it done today. - Right, I know. And you said you've been on a press tour. Let's talk about the press tour. So you spend years wrapping talent, putting people on tours, building careers for others. How has it been being the talent for the last couple of months on this tour for the book? - You know, the good thing is, for the first time, I get to analyze if the company's any good at the agents at the company 'cause they're representing me now. And if the communications department is good and if the lecture department is good or the podcasting group is good, or the book department is good. And I would say, they're actually very, very good. And it's been fun. It's, you know, the good thing about the book, I usually, and the business voice of a lot of clients. And for the first time, I did a book to give people a perspective of what it takes, parents what it takes to bring up a kid that's dyslexic and the difficulty is as a parent. And, but if you do it right, you give them an emotional endurance because they get through a really hard thing on their own. And the end will come and the parents can handle it. And then for kids that are dyslexic or anybody starting in business, hopefully there's some business lessons that I went through, everybody's got to do their own individual lessons. And people that are dyslexic understand that they can achieve great things 'cause it has nothing to do with intelligence. Even at, I did this podcast in London with this whole group that dyslexia had. The woman asked me a question and I said, you know, I was always nervous that somebody was gonna find me out and she goes, you know, at age seven, you find out usually a seven, eight, nine that you're dyslexic. And that's also the form of the years that you're getting your personality and your understanding, your understanding yourself. And you have the classic version of imposter syndrome because I kind of went through this whole scenario about getting found out that I wasn't smart. And she goes, that's what happens. Like the things collide at seven or eight or nine. And so hopefully through this book I'm getting over my imposter syndrome. - You talked a lot about it in the book. You've talked a lot about it publicly. Something I dealt with ADHD growing up, hit it from a lot of people felt that I needed to conform on a certain path, even in college thought, you know, I had to go into finance into the world where I finally leaned into it as my superpower to build a lot of what we have- - Do you have ADHD and dyslexia? - I did not have dyslexia. I don't, but I have ADHD to a remarkable degree, but it's been my superpower. Once I unleashed it and owned it, how much do you feel and for people struggling out there with whether it be dyslexia or something else, leaning into what makes you different? How is that- - I mean, I think there's a, in the book, I'm in the car with my best friend, Pete Bird. And I'm just rolling calls. Like anything from a situation I'll set to try to buy a company to deal with investors. And I'm just rolling, right? And he's driving and he is, I think by five calls and he cannot breathe. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And he goes, "Do you understand what's going on?" And I said, "You know, I'm just doing my thing." And I think it's one of the superpowers of being ADA. You can actually, if you get it in a little bit of a box, you can deal with many different things and multitask. And it's one of the great things of all time. - And we could talk a long time about formative years. We could talk a long time about what's happening now, but you've been on every podcast that we talked about, you've talked a lot about those things. I wanna take the next 20 minutes and really frame the interview towards the assistant years towards breaking into the industry, through the lens of the book, through the lens of your own stories, you know, starting early on in chapter three, I think we'll call my eye, you know, when you had first started working for Robert Lansch, you had talked about, when you first broke into the industry, there were no set hours, weekends, late nights, talk about the culture that you were in when you weren't assisting yourself. - Well, Robbie didn't say, organized the Tennessee Williams-Lowellian Helmand and Dash Lamb of the States. One is, I was interested. Two is, I just saw an opportunity like nobody's doing this. There's tons of inquiries coming in. It's completely not organized. I'm gonna get in there and learn it. And so I just organized it, read all the contracts, figured out what Lord D was in the theater business, and then put it in some framing and then like had that in my back pocket about how, you know, the theater business worked, which I had no idea about, which then kind of gave me an understanding when I got into television. Oh, there's syndication in the theater business, which is the regional. And then there's, you know, network television, which is, you know, Broadway and the West End. And then coming full circle now in my events company, we bought, um, Embassy, you know, ATG. And I completely, like all of a sudden, all these things came back up. So you never know when any of these things that you're doing as an assistant. And I remember as an assistant, just the first guy I worked for was David Tenzer. And he was the head of business affairs for television. And the guy was incredible to me. He taught me all the things either by doing the conscious that you can learn it, but two, what all the back ends meant, what syndication, the economics of television, and then working for Bruce Vinecker and then on the weekends helping out with Bill Haber, seeing how things were put together, which is completely kind of transform my life, realizing the value proposition and television, that kind of really back in the day when those packages drove the economics. And you now realize the same thing is true. That formula, which I learned back then, and I read a bunch of stuff about international television when I was an assistant and realized where television going, when I read the George Gilder book like after television, how all those things were coming together. But now I look at podcasting and that syndication model and how Oprah did it and what Dr. Phil and everybody else, the same thing is happening in podcast. It's just these things repeat themselves. So once you learn it once, you can see the patterns, which is nice. So learning, go on, go on. I was gonna say, you mentioned Bill Haber, I wanna touch on that too, and chapter eight was a, you talked about it about four sentences, but I'm gonna take those four sentences and we're gonna talk about it next time. - What's the violin portion? - No, different. It was about the Mickey Mouse slippers portion, but what I wanna talk to you about essentially, is there's a, when you sign up for a job as an assistant, you have what you had said, things that you're supposed to do, and then things that essentially you have to go out of the box to do in order to be a good assistant or get promoted. I was never out of the office. office. I mean, I really do think after I got out of the mail room, in me, I might stand when the mail room was only, I think, six or seven months. Most of the, now mail rooms are a lot longer. And we were, excuse me, driving all over the place. What the tensors, tensors desk. And from tensors desk, I went to Bruce Finnecker's desk. I was in there seven in the morning, seven or eight at night, weekends or anything he wanted when he threw his big Oscar party, getting all the stuff organized. And then when Haper was there, just doing everything for, I didn't care. I was going to do anything there. And it was not like, oh, you know, you can only work for here. And I wasn't putting in for over time. None of that. I just was working because I wanted to make it. And if I, my, attitude was, if they think I can work like a dog, they're going to give me a shot. And I'm going to also work like a dog because I'm going to learn everything that they did. And Bill Haper and Bruce Finnecker were incredible teachers just by osmosis. You're there. You're watching, you're listening, and you're understanding all the little kind of stuff that they were doing to kind of get what they wanted for their clients. So there was no playbook like, oh, you come in at nine and you leave at six. Not if you wanted to make it. Is that still the case? Cause one of the lines in there, you said never say, no, never say you can't do something. Say yes and figure it out when the time comes. Is that still the case right now to be an assistant in order to get promoted and separate yourself? You know, I'm probably going to get in trouble here. You can't get in trouble. Yeah. I have no idea what people do. Like if they're telling themselves, I don't want, you know, I only want to work nine to five or I didn't never cross. I had plan A plan A was to work my fucking ass off and do whatever it took to become an agent and then work my fucking ass off to sign the best people, grow them, get them on shows in television and go from there. I don't know what people will do now. For me, over time is not even a conversation. I don't even know what that fucking means. I just worked. I didn't think about, oh, I should put in for extra hours. I never did that and get paid extra hours to somebody. My agent who was vinegar would call me over the weekend. I would do is whatever right. I just did it. Now, I guess laws of change, attitudes, whatever. That's not the way I operated. The mail room though. And, you know, I, I mean, I've seen too. I started technically music central. I think it's up there in the eighth floor, probably pretty close to you now. But the mail room essentially was where I started. A lot of people started in the mail room. Is that still a viable path though in 2026 when there's so many more other ways to break any industry and separate yourself quickly? You had mentioned seven, eight months it took you. Some people now are taking a year. Some people take three months. I remember. So I'm in a, I'm in a meeting. I just become an agent at CAA. You know, my family, you can sit around a table. Everybody gets to talk and have an opinion. So we're sitting around CAA. They go and it's at 1888. We go into this big conference room. And there was a conversation going on. I'm a baby agent. And they say we think that they need more time in the mail room more time at desk. And somebody says they should have two years in the mail room and two years in desk. And I like it. You know, in my family, we're at the dinner table, right? I go, you're going to get homeless people at four years at like in the mail room, you're a base of 215 cents a mile. Like what are you talking about? And my whole thing is like throw them into the water whoever can swim, right? And if you can't swim, you're not going to make it. I don't know. I think, I think being an agent teaches you so much about the landscape of this business. So I do think it's still a great, I don't know what they do because they're not delivering packages. Sometimes we're delivering other stuff because they can send a script or you can send something digitally. But I do think learning the process and maybe there's a different way in the system where you become a trainee on a desk is actually valuable. And you move around to a couple people so that you get a lot of different perspectives and then you can get a feel for where you want to be. And you talked about moving things around on calls. Actually, I want to pull up a quick graphic. The first time this email right here, and part of the reason why you're on the show was because I had posted this meme. You sent a company wide email with this meme that we had actually packed into Manila on. I can't see it. What does it say? It essentially says, WME says you can't defeat us with CAA. This is back in 2021. CAA, I see I'm saying, yeah, but we can together. But you had sent this company wide. So that was the first intro into at least I thought my career was over because Ari manual had sent around a company wide email that we had put into Manila envelops, little trip down memory lane there. But jokes aside, I think for assistance, a lot of people feel that the mailroom traditional route is taking a lot longer than others looking around at peers and other industries. Do you think that people are too impatient early in their career, trying to skip steps in order to move forward or is that a good thing now given the. I'm too old. I don't know. I don't know what's not. You know, when there was 10 of us, I could tell you there's a lot more than 10 now. All I'll say to you is if you work really hard, it doesn't matter what I guess where you start. I think the best path is in an agency because you get to see the whole landscape of the business and how it's going. And really, if you work really hard, you get an understanding of the industry. Back in the day when I started, the path was you become an agent and then you become either a producer or an executive at a movie studio. I don't think that's the best path anymore. I think the best path is representation. It's it's it's been around for over a hundred years. It's a great path. It's rewarding the representation business it's a finding being the business partner to artists is an incredible rewarding relationship. If you do it well. And so for me, that's that's what it would be. But I have I have a I have a son in the business who's a producer and he's he's young 20th, 20th November, he'll be 28th. And yeah, he's, you know, you know, he wants me out of the business already. He's trying to kick me out of the business. He goes, all these guys got to leave the business like they got to make room. And I'm like, you're learning valuable lessons. You don't even understand what you're learning because it's just it's just it's just seeping into yourselves. Come fuck that. So I like how you say you were every week. I see you acquire something new with Mari. Your bet is in my from a viewing standpoint, a lot of it is on IRL. We talked about the event. I think maybe before we went on the air. But one recent quote that you had around future proofing your career was with Tina Brown when you said you're opinion your taste is more important than anything. So how do you think about and how should young people think about future proofing their career in a world of AI? Well, here's I mean, I said it in London, Latina. AI is the greatest average. It doesn't have new ideas. It doesn't have haste. It doesn't have a point of view. Those are all things that we as humans have. And those things are very, very valuable. And the only way you get them is by reading a lot going through situations that teach you stuff, observing, AI is just a really great average. And it's really good at that. But I don't want to be average. And so if you read history, if you look at art, you have taste, you have points of view, that will distinguish you. And you can then use AI as a tool as opposed to being afraid of it. So the current state and you remain optimistic through that viewpoint as well, that human taste, human curiosity, human connection will succeed and remain paramount in the industry. But how would you rate the current, and you've talked about this, but for our audience, the current state of Hollywood. Listen, we're going through a consolidation period. Fine. This is not the first time, not the last time that, you know, companies that are public have to figure it out. Charlie Bluehorn back in the day, when you run, you ran Gulf and Western, had paramount underneath it, said the movie business is over, and then you got Chinatown, Godfather, and a whole slew of hits at Paramount with Robert Evans. You know, I remember when we started the business in Endeavor in '95, they said the television business was over, no dramas, no comm, I mean, they went through, it's all lies. There's just more different content now, social influencers, podcasts, et cetera, micro dramas. Business is going to be healthier than it's ever been. There's going to be more content than we're going to be, because costs are going to come down because of AI, because people are going to use it. But again, you have to have taste, you have to have judgment, you have to have point of view, you have to curiosity. And so it's going to be an unlock for those that are embracing and realizing that they're in the control booth, and they just have to use it. Studio heads are going to come and go, everybody's going to have to operate. Like I have to operate the public markets with TKO, and that's going to have to do that. David Ellison's going to do that, you know, our friends at Disney and Apple and Amazon, et cetera. Fine, they're going to they have to put out content and they're spending a lot of money to do it. So and I think there's going to be a lot more because the cost are coming down. You talk about I guess what I'm saying is I'm really positive about it. And I think there's a lot of scary things out there, and I think there is scary things that AI is doing as it relates to a creative tool for us. I think it's going to be a really great unlock for our industry. Look, I agree with you completely. And like I'm 10 years removed from being an assistant. I'd to leave the traditional world. I was at WME Live Nation in the tech world and then left it to essentially build out something that I bet on myself building this out outside the traditional system. But we actually sat down and pulled 2,000 assistants and coordinators and asked them, how do you think this current generation of leaders is leaving the industry for their generation? 89% of them felt that the Hollywood leaders are leaving it in a worse place with less opportunity. Why do you think they feel that way and how can you rebut against that? I don't even know what the fuck that means. Like what the fuck do they know? No disrespect to the assistants. Like that's just the group of people that are saying yourself it's not moving fast enough and I don't have opportunity. We'll figure out your own opportunity like you did. Nobody's handing anybody anything. You got to go for it. One of the things I hope in the book people realize is you have to say what you want as opposed to complaining about the situation. And then you have to go for it. You're sitting in a situation with us, you live nation and Disney said, wait a second, here's what I want to do and you went for it. And then you created a business for yourself. That's what people have to do as opposed to bitching and moaning. And in my opinion, I didn't bitch and moan. And I don't think people that are successful, yes, it's not easy. My path to success in this book was all over the place and plenty of times I could have fallen into a ditch with no net. You just keep on working and I could have given up a lot of times. And I could have not, I could have blamed circumstances opposed to taking responsibility. Was there a time early on or even now that you wish you had made a decision earlier on because you again, Mari, are there things that you would wish you'd done earlier on to set yourself up seemingly for somehow more success or at least success? Listen, I wish I would listen to David Geffen. He said just get into traffic, meaning merge with UTA or ICM or William Morrison, move on and just do it faster. He was right. Now, do I think it played out? What's the line? You understand your life backwards, but you have to live it forward. Yeah. Okay, with all that, turned out pretty good. Yes, could it? Maybe I don't know. Should have. Yeah, who gives a fuck? I want to talk. I'm fine. You're in a pretty damn good spot. But I want to talk. Exactly. In the last two minutes, here are a couple of minutes. I want to talk about this show, watched by a lot of assistants, your assistants included. What do you think makes a good assistant? And also, I love the fact that when I'm getting an email from you, if I'm getting a third assistant email, are you assist three, you know, it's like, but if I'm getting the number one, I'm probably in trouble or did something wrong. But can you break down the rules of the all three assistants real quick? Here's what I'll say. And I just have the situation with one of my assistants. I asked them all the time, could you do what you're asking me to do? I always also say, if you can handle me, you can handle 50 clients. Use common sense. When I ask you to call somebody, call somebody, read the book, it says, roll the calls. It doesn't say roll the text, right? And just have some common sense. And just save yourself. Could I handle that schedule? Understanding, I have three, I have four kids, I have a wife, she has a business. Here's all the things going on. I have this company, I have clients, et cetera, like use some common sense. And when they screw up because, of course, everybody screws up, me most. I then get on the phone with them and say, okay, what was your process? What did you think? And hopefully they got better. You better read the book. I have a big bark. I don't have a big bite. I agree. Thanks for doing the show. It means a lot. Thank you for having me. I appreciate you. Yeah. W me gave me a huge opportunity to have you on the show as a full circle moment. And thank you for not killing me when you sent that meme around that we're seemingly had to explain to you live. But read the book, roll the calls, also listen to it. Did you ever think about narrating it or did you always want to pass that off? If I had a narrated, it would have taken 20 years. Because I'm dyslexic. Let's get another book in 20 years and we're excited to see where you take this business. But Ari, thanks for joining the show. And good luck with the rest of that tour. Bye. We'll see you. Let's talk about leading ladies, Kira Jo. We have a pre-record from Kira talking about a couple of ladies that are leading the industry. Take it away, Ross. Hi, I'm Kira. I'm an ABA student ambassador. And today I'm going to tell you about this week's leading ladies in the business of entertainment. First, Katie Goodson Thomas is leaving searchlight pictures to become president of film at Lucky Chap International, the London-based joint venture between Margot Robbie's Lucky Chap and Media One. So Lucky Chap is really doubling down on its international ambitions and female lead creative leadership. Goodson Thomas will focus on finding and backing talent across the UK and Europe, expanding the companies for each beyond it to establish US operations. Next, women led in women-hosted podcast earned major recognition at the signal awards. Amy Polar is good, hang one gold and listeners twice for best host, while Chloe Kardashian's Chloe in Wonderland and Monica Lewinsky's reclaiming also took gold in the best host culture category. Additionally, Phoebe Judges receiving the audio icon award for her lasting contributions to podcasting as host and co-creator of criminal, which really highlights women shaping the medium beyond celebrity lead shows. And lastly, Hannah Burner and Paige DeSorgos Gigley Squad will become the first female-hosted podcast to perform at Madison Square Garden, with a live show scheduled for February 18, 2027. And this even further highlights the growing business power of women-led podcasts. A reported $160 million multi-year deal with Sirius XM gives the company exclusive global sales rights to its audio and video episodes with additional programming planned for 2027. See you next week, A.V.A. Kira Joe, shout out to Gigley Squad, though, MSG. That is no joke. We did A.V. live IRL in the will turn in LA. I think New York City is calling us. We may have an announcement soon once we get a couple more sleeps in our system. But a leading lady from the film at TV, from the podcast world, to a leading lady behind the scene. So we had, we were on the carpet at the Red Bull stunt awards last year. Got me really interested in bringing on someone from the world of stunt. So Devin Dalton, we are bringing her on. Welcome to the show, Devin. How are you? How are you? Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for joining. I didn't get quite to the point in the intro to talk about your role in the Odyssey, but there's so much more to unpack prior. We'd love to hear in your own words what you've done essentially in your career to get this point. And a bit about the role of a stunt person, a stunt performer. Yeah. So I'm an actor, a dancer, stunt performer. I've been working in the industry since 2009. So it's been many, many years of training and to get where I am today. And the Odyssey, obviously, is a huge thing to add to my resume. And I feel so honored to be a part of it. But yeah, I mean, I was the stunt double for Matt Damon, which obviously, you know, I don't think people would initially look at me and think like, yeah, she's going to be the double for Matt Damon. But it was just such an amazing experience because it was something different, something outside of the box. And that's what we do as stunt performers. We pretty much transform into anything and everything. And that's the, you know, the magic that you see on screen. And to this day, you know, if Matt wouldn't have mentioned my biceps, which I'm very appreciative, you know, people wouldn't know that that was me, which means I did my job right. Because ultimately, as a stunt performer, you're there to portray the character and double your actor as well. So not only are you matching the character, but your movement has to also match the actor and how they move. And the whole point is so that audiences don't know that you're on the screen. But I knew it was me and all of the promo posters. So it was really awesome of Matt to do a little shout out and being able to now kind of share that with the world is amazing. And it's just so exciting to shine more of a light on stunts. People are really excited about stunt performing. And it's such a huge pivotal part of filmmaking and it has been for so long that it's really nice to just kind of start to get our nods and have people interested in it in it. And there's so much that goes into it, you know, so. We, I will say, when that picture hit the interwebs, I was like, we have a group chat. We're like, who should be on the show and we immediately, we're like, Devon Dolan get on the show immediately. So we sent it out. You accepted. And we're thrilled to have you here. But we were at the, I mentioned in the intro, the Red Bull stun awards. I think we used to be called the Taurus Awards. And we, I got a chance to interview a lot of different stunt performers. One that stuck out was the rock stunt double, his real life cousin. And we had talked about the relationship that he had built with the rock. Can you talk about your relationship with Matt? I also want to know. talks about it publicly, but how you actually got that. that role? Oh, yeah, yeah. So that's so funny. I worked with the rock and his cousin, they're awesome. So I got the role, basically, I mean, I've been working in industry for a long time, and I had a good friend who's a fellow stunt woman, stunt performer. Jade Kwan, she's awesome, and she connected me to the stunt coordinator because they were looking for obviously someone of smaller stature, but they also needed someone that was fit and ready to go because there wasn't time to prep. We had about three weeks before we were going to camera with it, and who had the skill set who could do sword fighting, take direction. It's a very fast-paced moving set. Obviously, it's a huge film as well. So just basically, all my previous work basically got me this job, and it's just the connections and the reputation that I had. And then obviously, my physique really got me the role as well. And with Matt, it was so awesome. You never really know if you're going to get a chance to spend a lot of time with the main actor, but I did. I got to work right alongside Matt in both the in the costume, and once you have the armor on, you really do feel like Odysseus, and he's so humble. Oh my gosh, I'm a huge fan even more now. Super humble, very gracious. But yeah, we were on set in the Highlands of Scotland, and you know, just kind of, I try to take in and just watch like how he walks and does things, just so that I can kind of have the same presence that he does on screen, and then obviously embodying the character of Odysseus. So I was working on a lot of sword fighting, and just moving like a man, so kind of focusing more on moving, you know, from the upper body, and just, you know, I really wanted to impress him with my arms. So again, I only had about three weeks. I got the call, I went to LA, we had fittings and stuff, and then we were off to Scotland. So it's very quick, so you have to be ready. You have to be ready to go all the time, and that's the thing with stun performers. When you're not on camera, you're training because the phone just rings, and you know, you don't have months to prep. So it's all about always being like ready to go for that phone call. You talked about the training, but I think the, what's fascinating to me, and talking to a couple of other stun performers there, was the preparation and preparing for role to act like another human, like someone like Matt, right? How much preparation, what did the preparation look like, as you prepared the role in regards specifically to acting, moving, fighting like Matt would? Yeah, I mean, I always do a lot of research first. I, you know, read all the stories and make sure that I understand the character and the emotion that's behind the movement, because, you know, if you're just doing the moves and you don't have the story behind it, they don't really make sense. And then I tried to just watch Matt as much as I could, even when he was just walking around as Matt Damon, not as Odysseus, because you just pick up people's movements. But I've been doing it for so long that I'm very used to doing that, but that's your prep. Like, you're doing sword fighting. I was doing strength, strength training. I was working out my upper body three times a week, really trying to get a bit of a bulk. And I knew in the gladiator outfits that our arms would be out. So that was like the most prominent, you know, area of the body to show. So I was doing a lot of that. I was tracking my macros, like just, you know, really trying to almost body building styles so that I looked the part. And then just making sure that my sword fighting was very clean and precise and strong, because it could be many different things depending, you know, who you're doubling. Maybe they're super stylized or maybe it's just more brutal. So it's just about like working quick under pressure and making sure that you understand why you're doing the movements that you're doing. So it's a lot of prep, but you also have to do it very quickly. And you get direction right away, you know, sometimes you get the choreo right before the cameras are up. So mentally and physically, you just have to be on your best game. Yeah. And I want to talk about on set. We actually have a question live from the chat. Ride train and said, uh, what's the craziest stunt you had to do on set? Oh, wow. Gosh, you know, they're also different. So, but I will say one that was crazy. It was early in my career. I was, you know, just getting into stunt work. I started as an actor and a dancer. And I had just kind of transitioned into stunts. And it was a scene where this boy walks out onto the lake. It was, I think it was part of a TV series fringe that we shot up in Vancouver, Canada, because that's that's my home, my living Vancouver. And he ties a brick around his waist, smashes it through the ice and falls in and is underneath for a while. But the thing is is we did this on an actual frozen overlay in BC where they had actually cut out a hole in the ice. And I had to put weights in and everything to sink. So it was just, you know, bearing the elements, obviously the fact that it wasn't, you know, pretend that we're doing this in an actual frozen lake. There were a lot of different variables. And, uh, you know, sometimes it's like just doing something that you get butterflies, but you also have to be really calm. And it was, it was just something I was very proud of because I, you know, I had never done crazy cold water things like that before. So that one was really cool. You know, another really awesome. I like how casually you're just talking about tying bricks around your waist, jumping through a small hole. And I saw you're like another day at the office. Honestly, but yeah, sometimes you never know you, so stunt performers, we have a stunt bag and we bring our harnesses, we bring stunt pads and mouthguard, a helmet. And sometimes you don't even know what stunt you're doing that day. And you just have to bring your kit and be ready to go. That's crazy. I mean, I, I get, I have a nice run of show printed out from you here. I'm like, I know minute by minute, what I'm about to do is show you're like, I don't know if I'm going to be thrown out of a plane toss through some ice, but I cut you off though. You're about to tell another story. Keep going. I want to hear the second most crazy stunt. I mean, I will say like doing ratchet pulls, which is a big wire pole where you are in a harness, you're attached on a line, you're hooked up to a machine, pulls you very hard and fast and far. I mean, we use them in film if you're sometimes jumping off buildings or, you know, there's an explosion or any kind of super power throw. But doing your first like ratchet pull, you know, it's, it's, you kind of just got to ride the way you got to, you know, you have to have good body awareness, but you also just have to trust. So that was also, you know, a very big first stunt that was early in my career. And it's something that you can train for, but you also can't really learn until you're actually on set doing, doing the things. So, and it's amazing. The stunt rigors in film, a lot of people don't know about them, but they're the ones who set up all those things. They keep us safe, they do the wire pulls, like there's such a big part of stunts as well. And that's, that's the other thing is like with stunts, it's a huge family. There's always a stunt team. So you have your coordinators, your rigors, your performers. And so even if you only see one performer on screen, there's like a whole village that's helped bring that stunt to life. And so much rehearsals goes into it. So there's just so much work that goes into it. And I think it's exciting to kind of share that with the world now. Um, so, and also just to encourage, you know, women to embrace their muscles. Yes. And you know, break the screen if you keep doing that. I purposely put on my jacket. I don't have to be humbled back here. I got to know though. So you listed a bunch of crazy things that you've done that you've probably wanted to do at the end of the day. Is there anything you're scared of? Gosh, I mean, you know, the thing is, I think you always have to have a little bit of fear. Um, I think it keeps you sharp and safe as much as we're adrenaline junkies, which all of us stunt people definitely are a little bit cuckoo. You know, we love that, but we also it's a job of safety. And it's, that's why you're hired to do it because you're not there to just be reckless, but you're there to be able to do it like over and over and over again, over multiple days in a way that's safe. Um, but you know what? I get butterflies a lot, even when I do stuff from heights, I'm, I'm not scared of heights. But when you get up to the top and you're looking down, you're like, oh, yeah, I mean, I definitely have a few butterflies. Like the top of your referencing is like 80 feet, mine's like seven and a half feet up. I think we have different definitions of that. Mine's, mine's snakes and spiders. So if we're, if we're involved in that, if I don't know if there's any cameras over here, um, I don't think you have much fear. It's amazing what you've done. I want to, on a more practical note to end the interview. A lot of, we talked about, um, we talked with a lot of these stunt performers on the carpet about what the future of this industry really looks like for the role. Obviously, um, there's a lot of focus on, you know, AI, you work in motion capture. How do you feel right now as a stunt performer, as an actor in the industry as we move forward with technology? Yeah, you know, there's such a, um, technology has obviously gotten us so far and there are things that it brings that are really great and positive for the industry. But there is a huge fear with AI, especially of being replaced, especially for stunt performers. Um, and, you know, all I can hope is that when people see films, such as the Odyssey, that, They realize how incredible it is to see real performers on the screen and to see them create these illusions to your eye that you would have thought that had to be fake or that had to be CGI. And that we just don't have to go that route that you can still keep performers in there. And I think knowing a living, breathing human is behind it is just so much more meaningful. I mean, that is the art. So I can only hope like there's a huge fear and I know no matter what AI is going to evolve and work at some point, you kind of have to embrace and work with it. But I can only hope that audiences especially make it known that like they want to keep seeing real performers, because I've dedicated my life to this career and I love telling stories and sharing them with the world. And I would hate to just not be able to do that anymore. And it's just so important to support your artists and be vocal about it. And I can only hope that there'll be some kind of regulations around it where it's, you know, that's what we've been fighting for as performers. Obviously, there's been a lot of different strikes and things. And, you know, we're just trying to fight to stay doing what we love. And I do have hope that there'll be a nice balance, but it is scary and it is unknown. And there is definitely, you know, a concern there, for sure. But the more that we get to talk about stunts, like like now and celebrate them, the better, right? So that's kind of my goal as well as to just encouraging people. And there's so many people who reach out who want to get into the industry, you know? And you'd hate to tell them, yeah, get into it and then it disappears. So I hope that we're still making movies for real. And I'm so in support and honor to be a part of a film that has done that, you know, Christopher Nolan is amazing. And I so value that he's going back to like classic filmmaking and keeping it all real because, you know, there's a reason the movie is still in theaters to this day. It's still playing in theaters. It's doing so well because it does pay off to have real people. And I think that's living proof of it for sure. - Yes, it does. And you're living proof of the amazing things that's done performing too. Thank you so much for joining the show, Devon. Thanks for helping me with the biceps and we'll see you next time on the show and see you on the big screen some time soon. - I need to go to the gym right after this. We'll see you, Devon. - Bye. - Bye. So I got a chance to watch, you can see everything last night. It was rattling, I didn't sleep very well, but we have some expert here sitting about six feet away that we're about to show you. But we're going to roll a clip first on her recap of the documentary film, Roll It Away. - I need them to release three more hours of The Elizabeth Holmes, Nathan Field, or documentary. You can see everything. This is my No Spoilers review. I am genuinely gobsmacked about what I just saw. I cannot stress enough that this is absolutely worth seeing in the theater. Truly felt like a cat and mouse thriller with so much uncomfortable comedy. And if you don't know a little bit about it, it is a documentary about Elizabeth Holmes. It's with Nathan Field, or who goes to live and stay with her for like, think like 35 days before she goes to prison. He didn't spend this time trying to unpack and unravel. Like if she understands the weight of what she did if she'll admit what she did. - We are here live with Kristen Tepper. Such a pleasure to have you. - Thank you. It's so good to see you again. Oh my goodness. - You are the first in-person guest in our rebuild studio that we had to take down for our show last week. - It is gorgeous. It's haunting in its own way. Am I also speaking of, you can see everything. I feel like Billy and Elizabeth had a point with like, I don't think our Wi-Fi's working because of all of your camera because this is an insane setup. And I'm like, is this what they felt like? Shout out Ross and James behind the, I wish we had a camera. We're gonna get a camera to show you guys eventually, but this is amazing. - Yeah, and it's, well, we're so honored to have you here. - Thank you. I'm honored to be here. - Well, if you don't know, Kristen, Kristen Tepper's the co-host of Hollywood Hanging Podcast, which was the first, actually the second podcast ever I had massive earphones in. Hopefully we don't find those clips. But now you get to, we get to return the favor and the favor is ours to go through four top news stories that we wanted to chat about happening in Hollywood this week. So first up, we are gonna talk about the documentary that probably will in an Oscar. Elizabeth Home film opens to over 2,000 sold-out shows. Can you talk to us about the cultural impact and why it's doing so well? - You know what, I think that this is a movie that demands conversation be had about it. I think Nathan Fielder is an expert in uncertainty and ambiguity. And I think that's what people are latching on to. I also just think it's a really exciting time for theaters. There's a ton in theaters. This is my favorite, sorry everybody else. But like there is, I saw Whalefall the other day. That was a blast, like Verity was a blast in a half and in and of itself. I just think there's so much out right now. I can't wait to see Wicker. There's so much out there, something for everyone, which is a great for a theater, not for another conversation we might have. But I just think it's cutting through because it's fascinating topic, beautifully shot, up prime time, speaking of amazing movies and theaters, Lance Oppenheim, the co-director of this. I just think people are craving things to have conversations about even if it's uncomfortable conversations and we're not agreeing. - I think also what's so interesting is, and I watched it last night and an exec there said, when it dropped a telluride, total shock to the industry, but they had laid out, and we're not gonna give spoilers away, just for the record, but in the preview, it was essentially 30 seconds of just one conversation, and that was it. No one knew the film was coming out. There still isn't marketing around it. So in a world of abundance of marketing, I saw Kat and Hat park bench over there. You drive down and you see billboards and blimps. There was a 30 second clip. Do you think the allure of it attached to the names like Nathan Fielder and obviously Liz, but Holmes added to it? - Absolutely. I do think there's something to Nathan Fielder being a creator, the sole creator himself, and you kind of understand the type of art that he makes. That is like-- - Do you understand it? When I was at that, I'm like, I don't know if this is a social experiment on this single screen for me. - For me, yeah. - No, but I think that's what's so fun where you're like, I don't know if he's getting at me if he's making front of himself, if he's making front of these people, I really enjoy him right now, like punching up at like these two individuals through the film. But no, I think the marketing less is more right now is gorgeous for this. - Love that. So on a more serious note, let's go to Netflix. I think there's been a lot of talk through the last year around the flattening engagement with Netflix. It reared its head with 6% of the company being laid off, including some execs. So they just, they're profitable. They're still growing. Why did Netflix just make a huge round of laughs, including a lot of people at the top, take it away? - Yeah, I honestly, I mean, I think it's because we are all beholden, or they are all beholden to Wall Street. Like it really sucks so badly that we have had people's lives forever changed, potentially ruined for the like gods that be of Wall Street and like the growth mentality and like capitalism at all costs, that's like a really big bummer to see that happen. I think Bell Bajaria and Dan, I think those ones are actually, I think they're really sad. I think they are taking the hit for what has just been a change at that company that has been waiting to happen. Like they actually can't be everything to everyone is what they're discovered. - Yeah, it was interesting. I mean, there was a article that came up this morning about Dan Lynn, and let's go to the next story here. Essentially that article said, Dan Lynn was fired for being Dan Lynn. Netflix wanted a blunt communicator who could write size budgets and got what exactly they wanted. So how much of that talk about Ted's Sranos at the top and why that's happening, and how essentially it relates back to content? - You know what, I think they thought what they wanted was someone to come in and be like the hard fist, but what I think a lot of people to the Nathan Fielder of the conversation earlier, like people are realizing that the creators again are what make things work. And like if you want to, I've heard, I think there's a lot of in stories about him where it's like, oh, he's not like that friendly with creators because he's trying to be a budget guy. And like you have to tell people know at that point. And I think a lot of the creators, know a bomb back has left the Duffer Brothers have left. Like Netflix was in a bind right there. And I think they realized that. And it was like, oh no, we have to refocus on talent and like those people telling the stories that they want like David Fincher. You lost David Fincher, like that's scary. And so I'm, I think that them bringing in Peter Rice is a great move. I think I really love his taste. - Talk to us about who he is, 'cause some of the audience may not know. - So he has done everything across the board. He used to be at Disney. Supposedly the famous story is that he got removed from Disney because he was going to take the job of the CEO job with Bob Chaypek that was coming out. I don't know if that's true. That's just what like the rumor is. But he has had his hand in films like Slumdog Millionaire, Little Miss Sunshine. He was over at A24 and he had Warfare. And then trying to think of there was another film recently that I saw that I really enjoyed of his. But I just think he is, he's a guy of taste actually. And like I think they've done the thing at Netflix where it's like we're trying to be everything for everyone. And it's like it's all, it's open-ended and it's wide. And I think he's gonna come in and say like I think that we should have some standards here. And like you can't make a movie. And I think everyone tries their best. But I think he's just gonna try to go above the fold. I hope he pushes a little bit harder. Maybe some shows aren't meant to be binge. Maybe some shows are weekly releases. - Well let's talk about that. 'Cause I think one thing my biggest gripe with current day TV is I pull up one of the 12 streaming services. I don't even know what half of them are called 'cause they're changing names all the time. And there's hundreds or thousands of titles. They're all dropping at once. There used to be cultural moments. I think that's what we're lacking in society. Game of Thrones comes to mind. Stranger Things comes to mind. It doesn't seem like a TV show in my mind has really taken over. And I've been saying it for years. I think a lot because they're just dropping it all and streaming and there's a very finite amount of time where people will go and binge it. And then not talk about it. Let's move to the next. I think there was something about it and obviously people still roll out in the cadence, but I don't know is that in your eyes How can you write that ship with so much content being out? I think Netflix is learning like never say never with a lot of things I think they're gonna learn to never say never about we're always a binger and to never say never about theatrical releases for films Like I think there's a time and a place for everything there are some shows I love to binge over weekend chat with the girly pops about it But there are other shows that like I wish east of Eden would have been weak by weak because my girlfriend's obsessed over that show for the weekend and then we Bless it. I love you Florence. I love you. I love the whole show But yeah, but like it's gone. Yeah, you know what I mean, but that could have lasted seven weeks at that And I think like that's what Apple and HBO still have on like some of their shows. Yeah, and I think I don't know He'll be convinced Ted, but I think maybe here rice could be the person to do it Let's hope so and and there's a big bet next slide here on the creator economy You know, I get called a creator sometimes. I don't know if I'm coming around to it maybe but I'm talked to us about this this article in Variety essentially saying how creators make money digital native leaders on what drives audiences and brands and the Attention economy. I can read I promise give us a give it your take on that. I honestly think We have come around to a point I think when we had talked on our podcast you were like I don't really want to be a face Yeah, yeah, that was like the first time. I'm like I don't want to do this but I like you guys so fine I'll do it. Yeah, and I think like unfortunately like capitalism and like we are all a brand and especially if like We have a new mode to put yourselves out there and like get your work seen be seen have your opinion seen Caleb Aaron is one of my all-time favorite voices of like voice for generation And it's because he put he risked himself to make a podcast to put his comedy out there on Twitter and like I just think like That's no longer icky everyone has to be a brand in a way and we're all going to make potentially your own money from it And I think the most beautiful thing about that is if you're making money from this and you're upholding to The structures that we exist in you can then use those funds because there are a plentiful brands have lots of money to Give to people that are making art online and they're trusting creators more and more I think that's also a huge thing but like with that you can feed that back into your own projects So I am I just think like there's so much money in this Creator economy world that's almost alarming and I think if anyone's new to this industry or like new to being they want to be a filmmaker They want to be a writer. They want to be an actor like run towards this medium right now. It's interesting We had Mary Beth borne iconic We are on the show last week and she said she takes brand deals because it funds the real part of her creativity And like obviously a lot of brand she works with there's authentic alignment et cetera et cetera How do you rate the current state you're I'd call you creator now But you're also professional industry as well and you work with one who just sold a project. We can shout out Oh my god, so Nick is my co-host. He is a lovely people who's also a content creator He has really found his niche in talking about his favorite subject, which is horror films Yeah, and I feel like he is just like such a sound mind about being positive about what he loves in the industry Also like being honest about where he's at and what it's took to get there to become a screenwriter who also then became What they call an influencer, but I just think that he's a genius in and of his own right and like oh him and his his wife is his co-writer Love and like I just think they're a stellar cell or combo that are just going to crush What's next for you though? This interview is about Christopher talk to us about what's next for you? And also I guess the second half of that question originally was how does it feel right now to be working in the industry? What gives you optimism what gives you pessimism? It makes you pessimist talk to us about it. Yeah, that's what makes you pessimistic. Most of the industry makes me pessimistic. No I am right now like working a lot on my own projects. I am starting in a room. So that will be fun breaking news Yes, and assistant position. I'm really excited still. Congrats. It's going to be great I love kind of doing the really industry stuff and then be able to step away and like work on my own But I think I am optimistic for this industry. I think constriction is real. It's happening right now like I'm Shook it that we are allowed companies that make profit to do mass layoffs, but that's the world we live in I still think like it's going to come back around I think Netflix is going to refine its footing. I think everyone's going to I think new companies are gonna pop up I think new production companies come up I think there's a lot of niche potential to like I'm really liking seeing rom com specialty production companies like shine through and I think that'll be Something I've hyped to watch people do more and more of we're hyped to see it hype to see in the room Kristen Tapper. Thanks for joining the show. We appreciate first guest the new studio We got there. You see some memes are of yourself behind Incredible, Kristen. Thank you. We have a new segment here We've a new segment here From Stella on movie marketing Ross take it away. Hi, AVA. I'm Stella and here's what's been making waves in movie marketing. McKenna Grace just stepped out in a tribute to Katniss Everdeen's catching fire wedding dress At the opening of a costume exhibition elegance is authority the story style and power of pen-m in Paris France McKenna Grace is about to star as twins mazily and merely donner in the upcoming hunger games franchise film Sunrise on the reaping Sunrise on the reaping releases only in theaters in november 20th Kat and the hat recently flash mobbed the grove in Los Angeles Shocking hundreds of pastors by and reminding an audience the value of a live performance in an increasingly AI world Similarly in time square street fighter just launched a larger than life arcade complete with stunt performers Dueling and responding to buttons on an even bigger console Catch Kat in the hat on november 6th and street fighter in theaters now and don't forget the power of people when it comes to marketing Thank you Stella. We're gonna make that hopefully a recurring segment Shut up Kat in the hat. I think I mentioned them early. There is literally a park bench I guess a bus stop bench that is wrapped with candy cane made me excited for the holidays I think it might have been Mike Myers in the outfit wrapping himself But we're gonna move on um from you know more serious topics TV film into The new segment a brand new new segment called Hollywood Horror Stories We have Saul Goldberg on preview cw me assistant worked at c a now is in the creator economy Saul welcome to the show excited to have you What a pleasure. Thank you for having me the pleasure is my where were you calling from? I think it's maybe in London overseas. I'm in I'm in New York right now. Okay. Good. I was gonna say with this time difference I was about to say something about it being in middle of the night, but It's it's good and what an honor for me to to end the aria episode We start we start strong and we're we're ending strong as well We're all one of an episode of a work started to end on you So I got an email from you saying you have a crazy story But also I want to dig in before we get there Into your current work in the in the creator economy at blossom and maybe give our viewers You know 32nd intro on yourself about You know what you did before that Yeah, I mean 30 seconds. I came up in the traditional in the traditional business I was like you at WME style out an assistant there got some great stories Um had a career as a television executive Used to be uh set up the u.s. I'm a british company production company went to CAA was it was a an agent in the tv group there And then I saw this shift happened 2023-24 I saw that there was this big change where you know youtube creators were creating properties online that were growing into In some cases significant brands. I think yours is gonna become one of them in due course And so um, I set up this this company which is essentially designed to On the one hand partner with creators in diversifying and growing their businesses beyond just youtube and on the other side Working with them sorry incubating Original formats online as well. So I'm kind of looking at partnering with creators who already have some content on the channels and then looking to Incubate a couple of ideas on on social platforms kind of on my own So uh, so yeah, that's that's essentially the idea for blossom I lied. I do want to dig in more because you mentioned something about youtube Where is the most money in the creator economy right now and two-par question in a couple years. Where's that money gonna be? Oh, that's a big question. I think most creators would say most significant start You know mid to large size creators would say brand brand partnerships brand endorsements I think you know that tends to be the main revenue driver for many for many youtube Creators, I think depending on the vertical you're seeing all kinds of revenue diversification right? You're seeing in the case of podcasts And I know you've just done a show at the at the willton by the way it mazletov what a what a fucking brilliant statement for you But taking these online properties into live events We've seen that happen a lot with goal hanger in the UK with the rest is history and the rest is politics I think there's an interesting opportunity for some some niche creators in different hobby verticals gardening Golf where there's either a natural opportunity to white label a product business or Emerge business. I think that obviously you know in the in the bigger picture There's opportunities increasingly to license your IP to not just to Netflix I know someone that with your previous guest but with other to other you know avod platforms But I think brand partnerships is the first sort of step on the road And then there's all these other first all the other places you can look to monetize. Yeah, and let's talk about and thank you for the kind words as well We're thrilled we took us all night to rebuild this set. We're back. We had to do it for this story though So you say step in the road I also started in the mailroom essentially music central w me started you It is Halloween season. I want to hear a Hollywood horror story. So I'll take it away. Let me okay Let's just let's just step back for a moment guys. How do you follow? Because I saw our who's starting this episode. How do you? follow Mr. Mount Rushmore himself, you know, the man who was etched into Mount Rushmore as the God of modern Hollywood. Well, I think the answer is the maddest assistant story that itself should be etched into Mount Rushmore as the greatest mad assistant story of all time. And I know many of your viewers will be watching this and saying, "I've got one, guys, just sit aside and listen to this. It is, Bond, because I told it to many times, my friends before that delighted to tell you here. 2013 is the time. I'm brand new to being an assistant. I was working for a legendary producer called Ben Silverman, anyone that knows Ben knows he is not the easiest guy to work for. He's brilliant, but he's known to be quite a tough taskmaster, especially at the beginning. So six weeks in, I'm being asked to go to Ben's house in. I won't say where it is, but a very, very lavish affluent part of LA. And I drive there, and I get there, and he gives me a million receipts to expense, 25 lunches to set, 30 calls to roll, all the rest of it. And then he throws me his car keys to his brand new Maserati. And he says, "Go fill up the car with gas and fill up the tires with air." Now, I'm no car mechanic, Warner, but I think this is something I can do fairly easily, right? I've had a good education. I should be capable of doing that. So I go to the front lawn, get in the car, and I drive towards the gate, which is kind of about two feet in front of the car. And I get to about within a foot of the gate, thinking it's going to automatically open outwards, and nothing's happening. I have a little kind of gate remote in the car, and I start clicking it, and nothing's happening. Five minutes is going by. I feel like a schmuck. So I go back to the house with the gate, click her and I get out of the car, and I knock on the door again. I say, Ben, sorry, the gate is not opening. He's yelling from the kitchen, don't be a knucklehead, press the button. So I'm pressing the button like avidly, right? And it's not working. And suddenly, the gate starts opening. So there's a moment of relief, and then I see, oh fuck, the gate is opening inwards, and I part the car in the foot of the gate. So I drop everything. I sprint back to the car. I do a kind of like a chest fly thing. I put one arm on one side of the gate. I put the other arm like this. All my bodily weight is sandwich between the car and the gate, okay? And for like three seconds, I'm using all of my strength to stop the gate from hitting the car. And then suddenly the gate relents, and the loudest fucking alarm you've ever heard in your life starts ringing out. And the whole of the street is hearing this alarm. There's a guy at this moment. I'm not making any of this up. There's a guy walking across the street with his dog. He stops, he, he actions like he's about to call the police because he thinks I'm an intruder and I'm burgling, I'm burgling the house. Yeah, you got a maserati, you got to, you got to, you got to, you got to, you got to, you got to, you got to, you got to, you got to, you got to, you got to, you got to, you got to, you got to, you got to, you got to, you got to, you got to, you got to Yeah, exactly. So I then I then look to the front of the house. I see Ben and his lovely wife who calmly steps outside sees all this commotion and she walks over to me my chair. I mean, even retelling the story is new PTSD. Okay. She calmly walks over. She shuts the gate down. She shuts the alarm off. She makes the gate go back into its original position. And everything's calm and everything's fine again. I then drove off. I did what I had to do. And then the kind of wildest end to this story. And by the way, at that moment, you could have put a bullet in my head and I would have been happy to end it all there because I was so mortified. But then I went to do the casks and I got a million calls and everyone's calling on the Black Bree and it's all kicking off. I then get back. And the final kicker was that I saw that my own car. I used to drive a stick shift manual Volkswagen Golf at that point. And somehow I'd forgotten to put in my in my state. When I arrived, I forgot to put the handbrake on and my car had rolled into the bag of his Cadillac. He had another car. This amazing beautiful old red Cadillac. And my car was bumper to bumper with his Cadillac. And I remember just driving off and I messed my Black Bree saying Ben, I'm so, so, so, so, so sorry. And I apologize profusely. And I think it took some time for him to forgive me and eventually I want his forgiveness. But there are more parts of that story that I'm not even touching because, you know, we haven't really got time, but it was, it was wild. And but it gave me a life a life lesson. And I don't know if we got time. I can give you a couple of reflections. I also just want to say before you do that, at least it wasn't the Maserati, right? It wasn't the Maserati, but the Cadillac was beautiful as well. And, you know, he's got all these cars, but I nearly, I nearly smashed the Maserati into the gate. I said off the alarm. I get the guy calling 911 and then I roll my car into the Cadillac. This is what I was about to ask to a question live in the chat. Were you promoted or fired at the end of this though? Well, amazingly, and I, I would have loved to have been fired. I would have loved anything to just leave me of the pain of that moment. I didn't get fired. I got back, I got back to my desk, like Ari was just saying, I think I was probably at my desk to 1 a.m. that morning. And then I was probably up at 5 a.m. the next morning. I managed to survive it. And let me just use that as a sec to say what I was going to say because honestly, it was a fantastic interview with Ari. I enjoyed every moment of that. I'm sure your viewers did. I'm alive too. And I don't know if I'll be promoted or fired, but I'm alive. Yeah, you're alive. We're all, but you know what, Ari spot on that in the end, this business is about resilience. If there's other than roll the calls, a book I'd recommend your views to what to read, it is man's search for meaning by Victor Frankel. It's a guy who survived the Holocaust. And it is a book about how he survived the atrocities and the horror of that situation. And when you're feeling down and low, and I know many assistants do, and we've all been there, you have to find a way of remembering what Ari just said that this is a business to ultimately rewards. I think that is the, that's, I know these sample like platitudes, but it is actually true. And I think what he just said to you about what you've done and no one hands it to you, no one hands anything to anyone, you create the opportunity, you have an idea, and you pursue it with all of your heart and bigger and the businesses way crazier than ever was it's never been a normal business and it's even more wild than it's ever been. I think that these timeless truths hold true today, in fact, maybe more true today than ever. And yeah, I think what I learned from Ben and what I'm so grateful to Ben, I love Ben is, is, is the importance of not just the strategy part of it and being the business acumen and all of that, but it's, it's the character part, it's, it's being fearless, it's being courageous, it's never, ever, ever giving up. That's, I think the, the lesson that all of your, you know, particularly the younger, the younger years need to hold, hold true to the hearts. Beautifully said, I think I, I tell people this off and I failed more than anyone I know, you know, in this career, it's taking me through seven jobs, the pandemic losing one and, you know, a lot of things haven't gone well, but it is resilience and it's betting on yourself and seeing, seeing things through. I think that's where when things get tough, that's where, you know, you have to sit with yourself and say, is this something I really want to be doing industry I want to be in. You know, you've risen the ranks, you know, are you coming on here, talked a lot about it, Christian before, but, you know, hopefully one day I'll have the Maserati, I'll hand you the keys, maybe I'll take the parking brake. Right, here's the thing, here's the thing, Warner, you have to walk through fire, I think in this business and you walk through fire, if you keep walking, you get through it and you get to something, you get to something interesting nobody has done anything interesting, who hasn't done that before. So here's to that amazing. What a balance, crazy stories, deep wisdom, Saul Goldberg. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. Thanks, mate. We'll see you. What a show, but I do want to give a couple quick thank yous to central talent booking who books this and all of the episodes here on a live if you have a show, a podcast, or even a live show at the will turn they are the team that's going to book you the lineup. I want to give a big shout out to pixels. We talked about this last week, we just redesigned our website at the hand of pixels, they're a be high of agency, they're the design agency for world class founders, they design your newsletters and websites, so everything feels cohesive premium and build to convert also just look at this thing, it's a thing of absolute beauty. Shout out pixels, we have events on there you can live stream our show by some urge, check out what I have to say in our newsletter, the mail cart. And I do want to give one quick point and thing to talk about, which is Lloyd, this show is powered and brought to you by Lloyd is a company that I co founded a year ago from a place of wanting to empower not replace the next generation. Every deal, every project, every relationships and one platform, my goal is to make working in the industry less intimidating less chaotic and more welcoming for the next generation. As I said before, what a show we're here we're alive, we're going to be in the same place at the same time next weekend with one of my former bosses, we'll see you then.