Are You Dressing for You or the Algorithm? With Maggie Zhou

[Music] A list-n-a production. This is not how our ancestors lived. This is so new. This is not normal to the human condition. No. This sort of speed, this sort of want and desire that can be fulfilled so suddenly. This is so, so new to us. Yeah. And it feels like a headspin because it is one. I find the conversations around trend prediction so funny because a lot of comments sections will read, "Oh, thank goodness. Now I can wear this." But it's like, you can wear whatever you want whenever. You don't have to wait for somebody, especially some random one. Tick-tock to tell you what you can and can't wear. [Music] Hi, I'm Sarah and this is Smalltalk. It's not quite a news headline, but it is what the girls are talking about. And today, I am joined by Maggie Zau. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me on Smalltalk today. I'm so excited to have you on. I have, okay, to read out. You have been a self-described word, scribbler and slow fashion wearer. You're a Melbourne-based rider. You're an editor. You're a content creator. You're the co-host of the Culture Club podcast. You've written for pretty much everyone. [Laughter] Editor at large for broad-cheeked Melbourne. The Guardian, L, ABC. Well done. [Laughter] Well, thank you. Thank you. I do love a verbal resume. Yeah. No, I love doing this to guests too. I will say at the top the self-described word, scribbler, I feel a little bit mortified. I fear I wrote that as a teenager. That's very Tom Lecoded. I'm a little hold you to it. And what do you mean? What do you mean? Word, scribbler. Word, scribbler? No, I love it. And I also, it's so funny, re-optumble already, because that's genuinely something I want to do. You've been talking about today. And even just the way you've obviously started your career and launched it in this digital age. And I have seen you've referenced Tumblr before as the education tool of those early days. You were a Tumblr girl. I was a Tumblr girl. I have grown up on the internet. You wouldn't believe. Even pre-tumblr, my first kind of foray into the online space was a One Direction Twitter. And I'm thinking, was that 2011, 2012? Like, it was early on. The One Direction Stan account. Oh, 100%. And don't all the best media girl. No, they do. And they do. They teach you proper, like, PR, comms, writing skills. I swear to God. No, it completely makes sense. It's kind of sad that Tumblr's not a thing anymore. Like, and look who was problematic, for sure. Oh, yeah. Like, you know, elephant in the room. Yes. But I will say so much of that self-exploration of what I found cool and what my personal style I wanted to be poetry songs, whatever I was aiming for, as like a 14-year-old. I have so much time for her. Yeah. That little website really was an incredible place to play. And again, really not disqualifying the terrible aspects of it. No, the horror was obviously, but there were so many. But in the same way, it was a place for us to experiment to see what we like, to kind of figure out what music, words, fashion, as you're saying. And I had a lot of fun there. It was-- it was a lot of fun. But also, how has it been being on that sort of the frontier of a career that's like-- it's like the building of plain whilst flying? It just keeps changing the digital landscape, too. I feel like it's one of those questions where you just can't predict it anymore. And it is always changing. And that's the nature of the beast. If you think it's going to say stagnant, like the media world, digital media, obviously, you know this as well. You just can't. Unpredictability is part of it. Yeah. And it's so fun, even like reminiscing on the Tumblr days. And I think that is when a lot of journalists or creators' R-H did get their start on Tumblr, but then also, I guess, Pinterest now or whatever it's been. God, there were so many. It was like, ask a fam. Like, well, there's like other torturous stuff. But now, we could never have predicted what was to come with the way Instagram would evolve from being a photo-sharing platform between family and friends to a career in itself. And then TikTok, that is this moving beast of trends and algorithms to keep up with. And it's kind of what I wanted to talk a little bit to you about today was keeping up with that and how to, and when not to, because even when I look at TikTok, we have a trend that could be created on a Tuesday and a juke delivered to your home on a Friday. And that is like a bit of a mind-fuck to be honest. This is so new. No. Yeah. It is. Actually, that's like the first. Like, we're not supposed to be keeping up with this. But I mean, like, it's also crazy that they're all happening simultaneously. Like, I remember when Clean Girl aesthetic was still going strong, which, and then like mob wife at the same time. And you're like, what am I meant to be doing right now? Yeah. And then, I mean, what has been some of your favorite or like the ones you found the most interesting out of those trends? And I will say as well, this micro trend conversation, especially it's rampant on TikTok. Dara say, is it slowing down a little bit because I feel like it's peak was a few years ago. Perhaps that was when I was working full-time in women's media, but I was like, every goddamn day and you tried. I feel like one of the trends that has stuck with me is the tomato girl aesthetic. Do you remember this one? Oh my gosh, yes. Because this one even was. I know, tell me about it. This is a thing when you look back with Retro. When you look back in hindsight, you're like, what was actually happening? Because this trend really blew up. And he wasn't just seeing tomato print on clothing, which it definitely was, but expanded to all facets. There was candles that looked in smart like tomatoes. There was like books about tomatoes. It really was like every part of your life you can commercialize to think of tomatoes. And like, okay, I feel like I should say, I need to admit on the outset of this. I am a marketer's dream for this stuff. And I can have the silverware and it's like, I know that I think maybe it's because in the last couple, maybe in the last two years or so, I started on a journey of trying to find personal style and finding confidence in that. But trying to do that at a time like this has been a really interesting experience. Because I do kind of fray into all of these. Because and see what works and see what suits. But it's also made it a lot harder because every time you feel like you've got somewhere with it, it's now party grunge is back. And I'm like, I've literally just mastered a slick back bun. Oh my God. And I, as someone said in one of my comments when I did a trend prediction of the, for this year, they were like, slick backs might be out. And I was like, but what are we gonna do then? What am I literally supposed to do then? What were your trend predictions? Oh, some of them for this year, you kind of mentioned kind of like the pastel grunge aesthetic and color wise. We're looking at like aquamarines and heels. I think I'm seeing plaid, but like plaid shirt kind of like, that Western aesthetic, but continued, things like this. We've seen it's been the summer of the casual heel. So seeing how it's just a bad, which is a bad, how excited about that. Yeah, there's a lot to love. But it's a thing of like, I find the conversations around trend prediction so funny because a lot of comments sections will read, oh thank goodness, now I can wear this. But it's like, you can wear whatever you are whenever. I think this is what we like fight with within ourselves because I love following creative content creators that are able to like maximize on these moments and see what they do with it. And I love following how they interpret trends or how they stick to like develop their own style. But it's like trying to figure out that ability to put a distance between it. To know that you can also just enjoy that as like an art form online and not have to try and incorporate it in your wardrobe immediately. I love this because to me actually this might be an unpopular take, but trends are neutral. Yeah. Right, there's a lot of hatred towards trends and what they represent, which I definitely resonate with because I am someone who advocates for so fashion. But at the end of the day, trends are something that are representative of the mass. It's something that's popular at a certain time, right? Yeah. And that's fine. The thing is, it's about how we pie-taken it. And you hit the nail on the head, Sarah, of like you don't have to buy in and wear every trend, but you can actually play with it. I love yeah, exactly watching people style it. Even just seeing other people interact with trends. It could be looking at your own spin on it. So perhaps you're just taking a certain color from a trend and seeing how you already have these items. Like you don't, a trend doesn't mean you have to go shop for an item. Yeah. And I think this might be the disconnect sometimes because you are being sold it when it happens. But I think what's really the way I try and think of it now is like, somebody's creators, and they're so, it is like art. If you're good at fashion and you have an eye for that and you're able to pull looks and maximize on trends, like not everyone has that gift. Like it's really cool to watch. but it's also being like. They are brands. Like they're a personal brand walking around. They're funded by other brands. And that's their job. It doesn't have to be, no one's paying you to do that. Maybe they are. Maybe they are eventually. Maybe that's something you want to do. But you think of it like a career decision and less book like you and your everyday life has to have to do it because that's falling for the marketing traffic. Yeah. And at the end of the day, whether you're even that online, yourself or that interested in fashion, I do want to reiterate that everybody is part of the fashion system. If you wear clothes, so nudists listening, this does not apply to you. But like if you wear clothes, you are making decisions every single day about how you're partaking in the fashion industry. And that means that you have power, you have choice, you have autonomy there. And I actually think it's great that people reflect on how they're participating because the truth is you are already. Yeah. Yeah. What tells us a little bit about your personal style journey as well? And like how-- Because you seem so-- You're confident. You figured this out. But was that a bit of a journey? Yeah. And even as you say, you figured this out, I'm like, however. It is a journey. That's a thing. I think my personal style has always been really heavily reliant on secondhand clothes. And I've loved, in my 10 years, going up shopping. And then that's how I think I've really figured my style out, a lot of trial and error. And I do think up shopping is a really good avenue for that because it allows you to play with such a diverse array of style, see what works, see what doesn't. I would say now, I wish I was someone who had a personal style that you could say in a sentence. Have you heard of the three words, Alison Bernstein method? You know what? As you were saying this, I was remembering this. But do remind me of it. And this is a thing. I've done it myself. But it's essentially encapsulating your style into three words. And these are words that encompass what it's like already, as well as what you want it to be like. She has a proper structure through it. So definitely research more if you're interested. But I'm like, oh, I don't know if I can narrow it down that much. I would say I love like a preppy style. I love vintage styles. And I like something that's a bit more masculine as well. But it varies. It varies. And I think the other thing that's interesting about personal style is you're trying to figure out your aesthetic. And that's almost different to styling as well. In the way that I've also had to figure out my body type. And what suits features. And sometimes when you're following these mass-produced trends, when micro skirts burn, I was like, fuck. It doesn't look the same on me. It's going to look on one of my friends. But then there would be another trend that suits me. And so much of that figuring out when you're younger is not just following it and actually paying attention to what suits you. And it's interesting that you bring in the aesthetics of it. And obviously fashion is such a visual platform. But I think personal style to me is also a values-based thing. And I'm not just talking about ethics and sustainability. But I'm talking about why do you dress the way you dress? What do you actually want to achieve? So you were speaking about body types. And essentially things that might quote unquote look flattering. I don't want to put words in your mouth, right? But it could also be like, how do I want others to perceive me? Like, what do I want to protect into the world? So everybody's got a different reasoning of how they dress. It could be purely for comfort. I want to be the most comfortable version of myself every single day. But it could also be like, I want to express my creativity onto the world. But you don't have to do all of these are choices. Fashion tells us, I think there's one way to be, and that's usually where was trendy, where looks quote unquote good on you. But you don't have to oblige by that to that. No, you can also change your aesthetic on the weekly. Yes. What? But that doesn't mean you have to go out and change your wardrobe on the weekly. It's a lot of fun. It is. And that I think is-- that's where I think we get stuck. Because it seems like such an easy way of like, oh, they've put a link in bio to exactly their entire outfit. And therefore I can go and buy that. And I don't have to-- And therefore I am trendy. And then the cycle that it puts you into, because a fashion initially is so naughty. Notty. It's naughty. It praises off people's insecurities, especially women's. And it puts you into this endless cycle of feeling behind. Because once you jump on a trend, the way that the trend cycle goes, is that it would disappear. So if you're always trying to chase that newest thing, you're always going to be in that constant cycle of chasing, which makes you not feel good. No, it's also expensive. My question to you when talking about it, also just how expensive everything is, is like, how do you suggest for people to start to retrain their brain so that the value of a garment doesn't come with that instant gratification of buying it? There's so much here. I think the first one, which is the truth that people don't like to hear that much, is that clothes shouldn't actually be this cheap. All clothes are handmade. They all touch human hands. And the fact is we've been trained to expect a $5 bargain bin at the shopping center. And trust me, I used to think $20 for a T-shirt was expensive. And I've had to do some big unlearning, because we see these brands, especially now with Sheehan and T-Moo out in the world. We know that we can buy something for $2, which means that clothes are produced more ethically, more succentably feel like an investment. And that should be an investment. But not even just an investment like ridiculous. Yeah. And I know this is like, I'm someone who's frugal, who can be stingy. Yeah. And it is a, I think, a rewiring of being like hang on. It takes a lot to produce a garment. And we just don't see that. And that's purposeful. And to produce it ethically. Yeah, yeah. That is what you're, what you'd hope you're paying for in a lot of ways. And I think a lot of that ridiculousness outrage sometimes comes from the fact that things that aren't ethically made or haven't had the same level of crossmanship and it are being marketed as 15 times what they should be, because they can. Yeah. And it's a hard industry to-- And fashion is hard to decipher. And it's purposely, I think, opaque, because people don't want to know. And people don't want other people to know how things actually made the cost of that, like how materials are gathered. Because at the end of the day, it is an industry that employs millions of people. And the truth is, a lot of the time, most things are being made well. No. And it's really hard to have literacy on what is a reasonable price for things when you have chain making $3 versions of things and then other companies that aren't as well made-- if maybe a few steps up from machine charging triple the price-- and then some beautifully crafted things that are reasonably priced, but you can't, unless you're in fashion or really paying attention, it's really hard to get a grasp on what should be normal. I get that. And I get confused too. I feel like a good website I like looking at is Good On You, which is an Australian tech website where they independently audit brands on the basis of people, planet, and animals. Because when you go-- I'm going through brands' websites, reading their about, reading their sustainability pages, et cetera. But sometimes it's still so hard to kind of wait through. So I do like-- That's a great independent. Yeah. Or even the some action great like TikTok and stuff who teach you the basics of like stitching. Yes, yes, yes. And things like how to check the-- How to check how something has made yourself, when you feel it. Or like, this is 70% this, which means-- [LAUGHS] Yeah, I've been loving those TikToks too, because I think we're one of the first generations to really lack this material knowledge. I know that my mom and her mom would make clothes. Like, they knew how to do this. Yes, my-- Nearly like grandmother's soul. Yeah. I don't know. It's a separate question. No, no, no, no, no. And I just wish we could connect back to the material objects around us, because I think having that disconnect means that we lack a lot of this knowledge or connection. I think it's actually a connection piece as well. Yeah. I hope that clothes won't always be seen as disposable as they are today, because that's, again, not how our ancestors, not how our grandparents live. There's a connection to clothes, you know, that we should be fostering. I think so. And I think I've actually got really lucky with my mom always taught to buy quality of a quantity. And that is a luxury in itself to be able to think like that, because so much of this conversation is affordability. But I do think that actually have saved me so much money, then buying a ton of smaller things, then one really good thing. And then it's pretty hard to resell some of that. Yeah. Whereas if it's a good piece that you've maybe just outgrown or it's not really your style anymore, if it has that quality, you can actually give it that second lease of the piece. of life. It's true. It is true. And there is that value that's kept in the garment that can be passed on. We see this for the circular economy where we keep clothes in circulation for longer. And even if it's everybody, right? And when we're talking about the affordability of clothes, and that is such an important part of this conversation, I want to stress that like the most, there's a great quote by one of the co-founders of fashion revolution, which is like a global fashion movement. And she says, "The most sustainable garment is a one already in your wardrobe." And this is a thing. We don't need to go, like, sustainability isn't about buying stuff. Yeah. Actually, the opposite. And it's about like making use of what we already have. Yeah. Which is like maybe a boring answer. No, but I actually think like if you want to get, and this is what I'm learning in the last few weeks, which is like if you want to get experimental with style, it's less about buying more things and more about challenging yourself to put outfits together beyond the one. Like I used to fit, and I'll admit I used to fall into the trap of buying something that I know looks good with these pants. Yeah. And then I would not know how to apply that top to anything else. This one just goes with this. Yeah. And this person says, and I know that looks okay. And it was actually like a confidence thing to be able to go like, oh, I can actually mix this or experiment with a few other things that, you know, hasn't been modeled to me from that store. Yeah. But that was on the mannequin. Yeah. Literally that was on the mannequin. So I know it's safe. And that is so fair. One of my favorite things is like when I wonder if you've had this experience as well as like when you go traveling somewhere and you have to pack a limited wardrobe in your suitcase and you've only got a few pieces to play around with, I actually kind of love it because that limitation means the experiment more. You try things on together that you might not have like a dress, you might wear it like a skirt or you might layer these things. You're like, I've never done this. But that's all I've got. Yeah. And that's fun. It is fun. And you know what else I've found with style in the last few years is no one, you're a teenager and you feel a bit silly if you wear something that's long or you feel it silly if you wear something that's like a handbag. Because you don't feel grown up enough to be wearing that or like you do just want to be dressing in like, I mean, I was definitely a culprit of I want to wear the tiniest things in existence when I'm 19. A cook I crop only. And now that I'm older it feels like, no, I can wear little heels and I could wear a long skirt and I can wear I can layer and I look the part now. There's so much confidence that comes with age too with this. Well, I find it really interesting, especially in Australian fashion content, context where you see, I don't know, you're in Sydney. I'm in Melbourne. But like teenagers, majority of the time I swear sorry teenagers. This does not represent you. You met like, it's cool and it's comfortable to just wear sweats. Right. Like people with trackies and maybe like a little tight top. Yeah. Because feeding in, I think especially in Australian fashion. Oh my god. It's so valued. Like that's what people want to do. I think that's why I was so stunted with my personal stuff for a while. Because yeah, there was a real thing when I was younger that you wore one teaspoon denim cut off. And a cook I crop or like a baby T or whatever it was. And objectively, that does not look good on me. Like that is not not for me. But I kept trying with it because I wanted to fit. You want to fit in. And the more casual you could look the better. And there was such like value and currency and looking like you hadn't tried. But there's a lot of effort into looking like you haven't tried. Oh, really? It's something that's been really nice in the last couple of years. It's been like, no, I love wearing tiny heels. Oh, fuck off. Actually. Yeah. There's so much power in that. I think like that fear of looking overdressed is something so entrenched in Australian culture. It is like why not again? It comes to tall, poppy syndrome, doesn't it? Like most things. It is. But also it's funny that you mentioned like Sydney in Melbourne. Because I find it's a lot more like there's a lot more pressure to be cool in Melbourne. Whereas Sydney you can lean into a tiny handbag a little bit easier, I think. Perhaps I've also been hearing discourse, which I tend to agree with every time I go to Sydney. It's like Sydney people are put together. Yeah. Melbourne, we look to share, but I actually remember getting slight call to show going out to a hop here because I showed up. I showed up in my, I kind of remember what I was wearing. But like I was dressed in a similar thing that I guess I'd wear to like Bondi. Yeah. And I wore it to like a Fitzroy. I looked, I stuck out like a sore thumb. I get it. Like I think once I've walked around Fitzroy in like active wear and I was like, I feel like standing out in such a bad way. So yeah, like the, I think like cultural kind of codes of fashion, depending on where you are, even like the suburbs of the city living, they're so strong. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And it's, I, I want to, I want to go back a little bit to when we're talking about styles from influences or creators that we really like. And how useful I find that because if I already really love their vibe, it kind of helps me. It's like putting, it's like their page becomes a mood board in a way. But I think that, that what that's given birth to is the whole concept of the influence of brand. And I find this really interesting like how that's evolved in the last couple of years. And how I think I don't know if you've seen this like discourse on like, there's so many brands that I love and I love supporting small brands and creators. But there's also a lot of, I guess, pressure on creating something that's different now. And a lot of them feeling quite similar or feeling like it's another act of wear brand or whatever it is. Yeah. What do you think about the like the influencer brand market? Yeah. The influencer brand market is an interesting one because I think when we look globally at celebrities who have done this and done a well, I can so see by people want to emulate. So Kim Kardashian, Kim's or even like Haley Bieber, Road. And I understand influences wanting to, I guess, diversify their revenue income and not just them themselves be the product, but actually create something. But looking at the fashion side of things, I think it's normal for small businesses to want to play it safe, I guess. Look at existing success stories and try to like not copy, not copy, but at least take reference from or value that or in build audience. Yeah. And like, I kind of feel kind of like whatever about it. I don't have strong opinions. I will say one brand that I've seen recently that's headed up by an influencer that I find who's doing something different. It's Romeo Waiting, which is made by Maxine Wilde, who does a little like colorful clothes. The thing that I love is that it's all made in Melbourne, which is really bloody hard to do. And number two, she's really lent into color and like kind of more statement basics in a way. And I'm like, that's great. Like lean into what makes you different. I think it makes sense, especially if they have a distinct personal style or brand that like can be replicated in a brand. I think that is really cool to see when you can see their personality and creativity in it. And it's less, I think it's a little bit like American influences and stuff. It feels like a cash grab when it is really beige, simple stuff that is just like easy to mass produce. It's like, do we need another hoodie brand? I don't know. I don't know. And but like if I can be a little bit cynical overall as well, let's be real. All fashion brands are in a way cash grab because it's a full profit business, which is essentially fine, but we don't need to hide behind the moralizing of, oh, like I just really wanted to put this product out in the world. It's like, yes, okay, you can admit that you want to make money and whether people resonate with that or want to support that is of them. Yeah. I agree, I agree. And I also think it's fascinating though to look at if we're looking at the TikTok and trend side of things, those who can really make it work and make it a trend. Like even just thinking about Haley Beaver and Road, that is like one person who's been behind like three or four of those major trends of like strawberry girl, clean girl aesthetic, bubblegum nails, like it's endless. It's yeah, I'm actually credit where it's June. Yeah, Haley Beaver. But you know what's funny though, this re I can't get this example out of my head, I always think about it again, working in women's media. I think he actually pointed the vicious like content nature of the, especially like the media news cycle or like grasping at anything. I remember when he was Halloween, maybe two years ago, Haley Beaver had brown nails on and that sparked a trend, they called it something like, what was it? Oh my god, I remember. Capuchin, or whatever it was. I remember this. And then she used like a brown lipstick, a brown lip liner. And everyone called it like Coco lips or whatever it was. And everyone was like, no, actually cultures have been doing that for ages. When you're talking about a lot of this is like being derived from cultures too. Definitely, definitely. And it's I just think that that want from an audience or perhaps that desire or that demand from media to be like, we need a name this thing. And he needs to be a new thing. But we can just sit back and be like, yeah, girl, she's got brown nails for autumn. That's like it can be a simple brown nails for yeah, I know. I get it because like we need that new, fuzzy thing to latch on to to help give our own style meaning to give us like a direction to look at. But I think at the end of the day, everyone has direction within themselves. I know we have this conversation about quote-unquote finding our own personal style. But I want to also maybe give a different take, which is like, your style is innate to you. You're like discovering it perhaps. But it's not like something that you have to find and search for. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's so much of it's just a confidence thing. Yeah. Also, oh my god, on the trends thing. This is a slight slight pivot. But I saw in one of, I looked at an episode title that popped up of yours recently and I was like, okay, if we're going to talk about trends moving fast, can we talk about the I'm becoming Chinese? Tra! Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if you haven't seen it, there's this trend online that'll be like genuinely people saying day, day 37 of being Chinese. And what they're taking from it is like the trend of having hot water and like, that's good for you. And it is like good advice. But the packaging of trends and calling it that has been really interesting. What do you think? Yeah. I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's about the packaging of this conversation. Because, you know, I even talked to my mum about it. I tried to explain it here her thoughts. And I was like, in the end, sure. Like, embrace drinking hot water, embrace trying traditional Chinese medicine. It, it breaks like movement in the morning and all these great holistic, especially like the wellness side of this conversation. That's great. Why do you have to say that you're turning Chinese though? Like, no one's saying that you have to do that. And what that does, it really belittles this whole conversation. It makes a whole culture and there it's a, it's a long culture like a lot of these traditions and practices have been going on for, you know, centuries. It kind of reduces all of that to like a quick fix trend, but also kind of like a joke. That's, that's the main thing that is pissing me off. Yeah. It's like where, where sort of a punchline our ethnicity is made into a punchline because we're a culture that you can, quote unquote, be diagnosed as as well. It's so, not that I encourage people to go, but it just popped up in my feed. And it was like, you know, at first I was like, is this funny? I think I was genuinely confused at first because I was like, this seems funny. But it's so like, there's like a shock factor to 30%. Yeah. Yeah. I was interested to get you to take because I struggled with it a little bit because I was like, it's not like it's Chinese medicine and moving in the morning and having hot water hasn't always been there. Like that's, that's someone on TikTok didn't find that. Notruly. And I feel like we see this a lot with different cultures and in different ways. And I just, I just think people are becoming too comfortable online to make these kind of outlandish claims. And I get it. It was like a humorous, they came in it humorously, but I'm just like, we didn't need to do this. Yeah. I think what's, when we're having these conversations about how fast trends move is then like, this trend probably will only have a lifespan of a couple of months. If that and then it moves on to the next thing. And that's when it starts to feel a bit like, completely. Was I supposed, am I still meant to be Chinese? Yeah. Are we still all drinking hot water in the morning? Uh-huh. And it's like people who aren't Chinese can move on from this trend. Like, it was what are they can dust their hands clean. But if you're Chinese, you're staying Chinese. Yeah. Like, I'm still here, you know, and we've seen this over the years. I definitely think about the Foxi trend that happened maybe around 2020, which was a beauty trend that kind of emulated Asian features, East Asian features. And people could partake and then they could leave that conversation. And I think when it happens at this time, and I think when it happens at the same time as other xenophobic conversations, especially around 2020, and we saw the rise of that in terms of COVID, it's like, you can't pick and choose. And that's what people are doing. Yeah. I think it's a big part of this whole thing with trends. I remember a really interesting conversation we had a few months ago with Critic Uptar was about when the trend was to wear, like direct from South Asian culture wear the scarf around the neck. And people didn't even know. And that's the thing they didn't actually even, they weren't doing it maliciously or anything like that. But it was genuinely like that wasn't an educational piece or included in the conversation at all. And of course, like, no one's expected to know everything. But it's like when criticism sat to rise, that is your place to listen to it. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, of course, I give people the benefit of the doubt. But it's like, now there's a lot of information out there about, you know, wearing traditional clothing from other cultures. And I'm like, I don't know how much I'm going to excuse. I'm going to give evil. I know that sounds quite cruel and harsh. Sometimes I've been on the internet for so long. Yeah, I've seen this happen so many times. Yeah. And it's so, and trends are just so cyclical. And that's also funny. Like genuinely everything for even in the last like three years, most major trends from like the 70s, 80s and 90s and early 2000s have at some stage come back. Like even looking at wedges, I would never have thought that two years ago. And here we are. Yeah. For God honestly. Oh, well, it's interesting because when we talk about vintage fashion, for instance, there's no set term that defines what is classified as vintage. But most people agree that it's about 20 years, right? So we have been seeing trend cycles work in about a 20 year trend cycle. So that's why maybe in the early 2000s, people were referencing like 80s clothing. But that has ramped up so much that we are looking at like 2016 fashion now. It's genuinely reduced. Oh my God. The 2016 trend was, I keep talking about it, but it was so funny to me. It was so funny to me. And it was also hilarious that it was wrong. Like the ancient scripts were wrong. Oh my God. And they're not ancient. Like yeah, there were so many people who would, I was seeing online dressing up in the 2016 aesthetic. And I was like, that's not it. That's not what we were wearing at like respect on the neck. Exactly. But we love to kind of rewrite what just happened and to romanticize times that might not need it. And yeah, it's just becoming quicker and quicker. I think it's just so hard to keep up with a trend cycle that fast that we just have to keep coming up with stuff. Yeah. One of the trends though I'm seeing die off or maybe it's just in my feed but I'm interested in your take I'm not seeing halls received as nicely. Yeah. It feels like it's a bit of the death of the hall race and I don't know whether that's just yeah, I don't know if that is just me, but it seems to just not sit as nice like people just are like, okay, because everyone can do a hall and there's so much PR and it's I think because things are moving so fast, I wonder if now is consumers. And I would think this even for like movie marketing in general or just marketing in general. We're expecting a lot more creativity to be able to cut through now. Yeah. You're in you're right. I hadn't actually considered the trend of halls kind of dying off, but I feel like I haven't seen as much of it. I do wonder if it's also like something that's seen as perhaps distasteful in a cost of living crisis. Yeah. But then at the same time you're right like anybody can create a hall. And then in Australia the average person buys 56 new items or clothing. Yeah. I don't know if you've seen that stats. That's from the Australian Institute. Wow. Yeah. We're per capita, the country that purchases the most amount of clothing. Even this was compared to like the US. That's so good. What do you think Australia is so spending? I am so intrigued by this and I would love to know exactly why. I think that because we are quite isolated from the rest of the world and the invent of online shopping, especially ultra fast fashion retailers, I feel like we have this kind of expectation that we are like entitled to this. We're like, oh, like now we can buy. So I'm going to get a lot. That's even talking about the road example that we're like, it's finally here. Yeah. I'll buy out the whole spot. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That is that's but also I think Australia has the best style. I don't know. I do. I can't lie. Thank you. I do. If I look at like things that I actually purchase, it is almost all Australian brands. Yeah. Yeah. And I think especially some smaller like smaller brands at the moment that are popping off and there are all these young girls at the like at the frontier of it that are just killing it. And I go, I this is really cool stuff. And I it's cool to see other like people from the States or from the UK talk about Australian brands. Yeah. The amount I've seen like five Australian brands that you should know and it'll be naming like the mood mischief and things like that. And you're like, that's so cool. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I think we do have a really exciting like emerging fashion scene. But and like, well, that was so nice. I feel like most people do under value Australian fashion at times. Or we have that I guess thing where we value brands after they get international approval. That's been a big conversation. So Australian though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So oh, everyone loves Margot Robbie. We're blowing. Yeah. Exactly. So it's like it's a bit of a catch 22 at times. But you're right. There's a lot of good things. happening especially from independent creators. - Yeah, I think so. But I also think that amount of spend on clothes is interesting because I do wonder if doom spending is like a thing where we react to global anxiety. It's kind of like that lipstick theory. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like buying something that's cheaper to have that kind of increase in, I don't know, is there a tone? - Is there a tone? - There a tone in? - To also feel like you can be spending. - Exactly. For those who don't know the lipstick theory, it's super fascinating. It's like when, and this is like actual research behind this, when it's times that economic crisis, the sales of lipstick will go up because we like to be able to feel like we are buying something for ourselves still, but it's on a much smaller scale. - Yeah. - I do think that's maybe change the time because it doesn't have to be a lipstick anymore. We now spend on address or clothes literally anything and get it pretty cheap now. And maybe that's a response that we subconsciously have. - To the state of the world in a way? - Yeah, I mean, it's similar to like little treat culture that I think has really come about in the last couple of years that we want to spend like $7 on a pastry or whatever at 3 p.m. on our days. Like we almost feel like we deserve it or we need it to get through, which I totally get. Like that really pulls through some days to what you can do. - Do what you can with the world. - Yeah. - It's up a little treat. And when it comes to online shopping as well, like that is almost that, like that is where we see instant gratification really take off, especially in the fashion world. Like you really can get things delivered the same day even now. And we don't have to wait and we can get that nice, like boost of serotonin. But I find it interesting that I think you'll have to fact check me but I think it's all this study about like when our serotonin peaks are most when we're online shopping and it's actually at the checkout right before we make the purchase. Not when it comes. - Yeah. - Does that resonate with you? - Yeah, that resonates. You're like looking around your eye. - But at the same time I also feel so sad when nothing's coming in the past. (laughing) Nothing to wait for. But isn't that anticipation of waiting for something? Like you haven't gone to yet, but you know. - No, it's just checking that it's coming. - Yeah. - Which kind of is the waiting for the checkout? Like it is. - Yeah. - And then at the end of the day, that really proves that hey, maybe it's not about the actual thing you're getting but it's about like getting something your way. And then it's interesting to consider. I'm considering it and I feel very seen. And like, but I think that's quite a universal experience. I, but maybe it depends, because I have some friends that are like, what are you spending on? Like literally what is wrong? (laughing) And it's not that I'm buying a bunch, but it's just, it is actually, and we're talking about investments but I was saying this is on a pod and an early episode and I can't remember the context, but when you do, after like wearing the one teaspoon shorts for long enough and then you realize this probably isn't my personal style, to make the right investments and ethical investments and to start to build a wardrobe that does reflect you, is expensive and time consuming. And it's fun, but it's also, it takes a long time. - Yeah. And even just getting back to like, okay, I probably, even being in an office and stuff like that again, you're like, okay, I probably need some shirts and some pants and some tops and you realize how quickly that racks up. And then you feel insurious at the guy that's wearing the same like plaid shirt every day. (laughing) But it is and I think there's like some grace in that as well, like having a grown up wardrobe is hard to build. It's hard to build, but it's also that thing of like, I feel maybe movies have changed our idea of it that you expect to go into a shop and then you're like, change you up your entire wardrobe. You're getting rid of everything and then it's all new. It's just like, no one who's got the time and money for that, right? - No. - So it's like, perhaps it's looking at what you really own, think about what you resonate with, what do you gravitate to, like what do you find yourself like wearing constantly and then building from that. Like that's your base and then it's about trialing little things, right? That could be accessories, it could be like a different trend that's coming away that you find interesting. And it's like small little increments, not like a huge overhaul. - Yeah. - Yeah, I think I joke about this on the pod, but like there's some idea of a personal rebrand and you do tend to think that needs to come with an entire overhaul and it doesn't, it really does end. How nice would it be to have that like seen in the Princess Cyrus and stuff? And it's a whole makeover. So the makeover scene in that, in the first movie and then number two when she goes and she has like the new house or the, do you know what this scene I'm talking about? And like she gets a wardrobe and the jewelry comes out and it's like, oh God, I wish I could live in there in one of those transition scenes. - It's honestly so good. - Genuinely that and the Devil Wars Prada were two of my favorite movies growing up that I've watched a thousand times in such unrealistic expectations on a rebrand. - No, I know and I want those boots and I want to have bangs. Sorry, this is the Devil Wars Prada by the way. But also I love that you've mentioned that personal style is something that comes naturally, it's trial and error. But like when algorithms are constantly showing us what others are wearing, how can you begin to like, I mean, yeah, what's your tips from someone who needs to help blocking that out a little bit? - Yeah. And like to be honest, I love using the internet for inspo for fashion. And so it's not necessarily about blocking it out completely. I think it's about being discerning. I think the way that we're using the internet so like kind of full circle from maybe the Tumblr days to now is that the internet is no longer like an inspiration mood board, but it is almost like a direct. Here's exactly how to wear this. Here's exactly where to buy this exact item and then you wear it yourself. For me, I think people like, for me I would say to be more discerning. So to look at an outfit of a creator you might like and ask yourself like actually what do you like about it? What specifically? Because just because something looks great on someone else doesn't mean it's necessarily for you. But almost pick and choose what you like. There's actually something I used to do a bit and this might sound mean. So give me your take, okay? - Okay. - So I would set a game for myself. Sometimes when I'm on public transport and I look at people's outfits like anybody. So people are gonna work whatever. And I'd pick something I like and something I don't like about how they're wearing or what they're wearing. In my head, obviously, Sarah, just not sliding it off to the afterwards stuff. You can just read that in your own time. And like I say this as almost like a way to train myself to be discerning about what I like in terms of fashion and style. And also to almost give props to everybody who's part taking in fashion. 'Cause you might not expect like the 50 year old business man or whatever to have something you like, but it's nice to kind of approach it in that way. It's almost like a muscle you need a train to like be like, what do you actually like? Because I will help you figure out your personal style and become more intimate with it. - I love that. - He's like me, a little bit me. - I don't think it's me because it's all, the thing is with fashion with art is it's personal preference. It's personal taste. Someone else could look at the same person and have the opposite take to you and that's also working. So it's just about having fun with figuring out what you like and don't like. And I think a lot of that is the confidence of being able to have an opinion yourself. And I think people need to practice having an opinion. - Oh my God, I could not agree more. I think bursting at the seams trying to like agree with you. - I think we have like a big issue with people not feeling confident in taste and that marries from tea, like what they're watching in terms of entertainment or how they're dressing. And I want to feel like to people, just try back yourself. Ask yourself why you like or don't like something. And those conversations are so important. Don't just say something's nice, something's good, something's bad. Ask yourself why. - Yeah, all we have, I think when people, especially hanging over so much to AI, it's like, remember that at the end of the day, your, not just opinions, but your takes and your taste or things are so important. Like don't just give that over to other people. - Yeah. And I really think it's so much of it when you think back to those early years of style. If someone was taught, it's so, you've kind of step into a personality and it's really hard to shake. And there are some girls that were told really early, they have a great eye. And they became, then they had the confidence to experiment because they already had that instilled. And if you were told, like even a little bit, and I feel like I hear the story of the time that like you're not the fashionable one or fashion's not your thing or whatever it is, then you carry that with you for a really long time. And you go, if someone just said something about those early years of like, then I wonder how different your personal style would be. - That's actually a good point. Almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy. - It is. - And like especially when your scene is one way and then you wanna pivot to another, it's hard to shake. I will say that I was never interested in fashion until my mid teens. So I have distinct memories. This is like so like from 14, 15 I was interested. But like my whole year eight, every single weekend, it's actually mortifying. I wore the same blue JJ's hoodie. Okay? I did not care about fashion at all. Like that one, I had a monster on it. Do you remember when they did like, there was like cartoony and they had like some words on it? Yeah, I was obsessed. That's so fun. You were so funny. I'll admit, I wore a lot of hami-downs when I was younger, which is great, cyclical fashion. - Vintage, some would say. If I had a hair dryer, I had these words at the time, but I had an auntie that was a bit older, and my mom was always pretty stylish, and so she would let me, like if it was my birthday, she'd kind of like give me a jacket or whatever. Which now I look back and I would die to wear those jackets, but like, being a year seven kid walking around in a pasch meaner was like iconic. - I can't. - Like objectively iconic looking back on, but at the time it was like, I'm walking around like a smart 45 year old. (laughing) - And everyone else is in their hoodie, and I was like, yeah, that probably set me back a little bit. (laughing) Oh my God, I love that you did that though. - I love that I did that with the confidence that I was walking around in this like a trench coat to Muffee Day. - Like, also Muffee Day is a wild name for it. We call it free dress day in Victoria. - You don't call it a Muffee Day? - No, that's crazy. - Well, I don't even know what Muffee stands for. - You look like a slur. (laughing) - Like free dress day feels, that makes more sense. - That makes way more sense. But anyone knows, please tell us that the inner syncracies between like, the vocab between Sinea Melbourne, like sorry, potato cake versus potato scholar, like what the hell is a potato scholar? - Oh, that shook me when I was here around Christmas, and I said that, and I didn't know what a potato kick was. - Stop. - I genuinely had no idea I was so confused. - Oh, as a fun thing, you can probably cut all of this, but did you know that chicken salt is an Australian invention? - No. - Yeah, it was invented in the '70s. I always get confused. It's either an adult idol, Perth Man, and I owe that man everything. That is my favorite thing. - Also. - It's also vegetarian, FII. - It makes complete sense to me that it is Australian, because it's the most Australian thing I've ever seen a hard, but that's hilarious. - We have culture, and there it is. The other thing that also shocks me is that there's not a chook is equivalent in the States. They don't have, oh, this could be another divide. - No, the good luck chook is. - No, do you guys like barbecue chicken, right? - Like barbecue chicken shops? - Yes. - Yes, like barbecue chicken chips. - Chicken chips in Australia. - That doesn't exist. - Why? - In the States. They would never have fried chicken, but they would never have barbecue chicken. - Wow. - Right? - Okay, and I'm taking the term chook as, I'm gonna try and hold it like that. - It's 'cause there is a store in Sydney that's charcoal chaleys. - Yeah, everyone gets caught in that one. - Oh yeah. - And then I think I just, all about the same door. - Oh shit. - So I don't know if this is in your term or a Sydney term. - I'm not confident now. - Thank goodness. - You would have known like Sydney Melbourne one hour flights. - So many differences. So many differences from the tiny hamburger. - Oh yes. - To chook as well. - And everything in between. Oh God. Thank you so much for coming on this show. This has been so much fun. - I did not think we'd be talking about chicken salt, but the test made it bring it out. I enjoyed it. We're very relaxed on this. - No, I actually thought that was really helpful and hopefully helpful to other people. I love just getting small talk guests on about things that I want advice on. - I love that. - Yeah. - Okay, no but resonates. This is your solar episode today. - You know, it's all out to ask whatever you want. - Jenny and I feel free to say anything about where you'd like people to go. - Oh, of course. So you can find me on Instagram @yearmang, which is why EMAGZ. TikTok is Maggie on the Squared's Zow. And I'm also the co-host of the Culture Club podcast. So yeah, find me there.