Are You Abandoning Me or Am I Suffocating You?

Hi, it's there. This is Michael and this is Tyler and we're trying to figure out how to do our conflict dance different where twins or 31 I Experience some of what happens in our conflict as mothering and I experience it as abandoned and we're trying to find a different way to work through this because it usually gets quite illustrating and there's a lot of times where I Go radio silent or I don't know what happens on your end. I get anxious and reach out And so we are still struggling to kind of manage this paradox as you usually put it And we're willing to talk about it Yeah, we're both social workers So that may affect some of this right we might be intellectualizing a lot of stuff So if you give back to us, that'd be great. We are open and ready whenever you are. Thanks. Thanks Support for where should we begin comes from hint water. Let me ask you How is your relationship with water? Is it satisfying you or does drinking it feel like a chore that you keep putting off? 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Hi Nice to meet you Thanks to you too How did we find ourselves here? Well, we've listened to you a lot separately and together and I really appreciate your insight and this relationship here is like the one that is the most precious to me and both of us I think and it's Fraught with old things that at least most of us want to want to work on And who had the idea of Working on it with me Was it me good question? I Don't remember did you start? I think you did start Michael Yes, on a whim So I applied on a whim and the whim said gosh, I want to deal with what? What was the whim? How I experience it is the operatic feelings behind our disconnection at one point well when we went off to university There was the first time we separated in a in a big way besides you know moving to another room when I we were in fifth grade and doing separate extra critical activities and The feelings have remained the same even though we've worked on our relationship a bunch but the feelings behind that separation have stayed there and And there are feelings of what for you for me resentment sometimes mostly resentment because I've often felt trapped in Tyler's expectations of wanting to remain in contact with one another all the time not all the time but pretty often sometimes within a 24-hour period and sometimes that's stifling not all the time So your reaction to His pursuit of you is I need more space Yeah, and your reaction of him is Yeah resentment. I think it's a similar feeling I feel abandoned on the pursuer needs the Pull away often That's qualified this has always been the model. This is recent. How would you say? It's always felt eternal I think because of like our setup as children Which was So when I we were born we were born three months premature and I had a touch of cerebral palsy that affected my left leg So I got a lot of medical attention until I was 10 years old and Michael when we were born had holes in his heart and lungs and was flown to Boston Children's and so I got a lot of attention because I had a lot of need and Michael was both closeted and I Think gave a lot to me. I remember it as like Watching him walk and so I got to learn how to walk well So you got Ungoing attention and he got acute attention It's a good way to put it a cute house so Like when the attention was on me it was like for a period of time and it was big But it wasn't every night the way that we had to take care of you Yeah So when you say I've been the pursuer Is there a connection between that and I watched him walk and I learned how to walk I never read that can I as in he was always ahead of me he was always In front of me more than ahead of me baby, but in front of me and I was trying to meet him to catch up with him Yeah, yeah, I Physically and otherwise yeah Yeah, even when Michael came out That was a big moment because I was resentful. I was like you had lied to me. I think that was like the first words on and off Which is horrible and I'm still so sorry. I imagine you've had time to rectify that one. We've we've talked about a lot. Yeah And and there was a period of time and probably still some like where I'm like man, I really wish I was gay as well Because in so many ways he was to me in a model of like what it meant to be a Human yeah Like a full human. Well, you the first person he told to no and that wasn't peace for you that you told you were more special and he would come to you first I'm looking at you face Michael it's not how I experienced it You know because you were the most important and so that's why you didn't go to him first. Yeah, I need to audition it my parents first And then you were the next Your parents poured themselves into each of you as soon as you were born, right? Yeah Yeah, they were so loving all are so loving and so My mother says she was born to be a mother And I can only imagine that was heightened after she learned that she had was gonna have twins So we both have experienced it as very wonderful our child heads but a lot of pressure because of it I think pressure as in what Get straight A's be the perfect children don't fall out of line to the thing that's expected of you. You are a miracle Yeah, live by your title Yeah, miracle has been a word that's been used not just by our mother, but by like both sets of grandparents when they were alive but What you're telling me if I understand is that you have mostly been described in the first pronoun plural a we And your challenge at this moment is how can you amplify the eye? I think it's both. We have been a weave for so long. We've explored our individual lives a bit and now we're trying to come back together somehow. I'm married, he lives in another city. We've got different lives, but when we do get together, it takes a bumpy period to get back into connection with one another. I think both of us wish we could do away with the bumpy part. Describe me the bumps. Who visits who? I'm his and. Usually? Yes. That's a part of the bump. Yes. Agnolaged? It was more acknowledged maybe when we were younger. I would go see him in college. Why aren't you visiting me more? You don't care about me. That kind of thing. But now it comes in the form of why didn't you get back to me right away what was going on? I have to explain why I was doing the dishes or whatever. I went to bed earlier. I was watching a movie or whatever and I'm here. I'm here now with you. We've tried to make it a steady thing of talking once a week, but sometimes even that on my end I perceive that you think that that's not enough. The bumps have something to do with scheduling and something to do with. Unrequited hunger. It's not as amplified when I'm in a relationship which is also a lot of pressure on my partner. I think because the hunger is directed towards them instead of him. I experience it almost as a relief sometimes, but then he's with my new woman. I don't know. Pretty often. It's not a relief that last. When you're saying when I have a girlfriend, I transfer that need onto her. I think it's depend more recently, not as much, but I think it's still there. You experience your relationships often as love bombing. It's big and fast and wild. That's scared me. You know, I'm not feeling this. If they're not intense so quickly I'm like, oh, that's not going to work. But if I understand something, as long as you are experiencing your hunger and your pursuit primarily with your brother, you can say it's because my brother is distant. It's because my brother doesn't show. It's because my brother is responsive but not initiating is because my brother holds his distance. But once you start to experience it on a regular basis with your girlfriends, then you begin to say, maybe my hunger is my hunger, not in response to a specific person, but in response to a specific relationship, which usually involves deep intimacy, trust, connection, and where I feel with my twin and which I feel in my romantic relationships. Something inside of me is left unsatiated. Is that? That's right. It's hard to disconnect my hunger from, yeah, Michael until I see that in that relationship. But then I don't know, yeah, Michael's like an easy scapegoat. And I've tried to figure out how to navigate those feelings through my own therapy with my therapist. So there still don't have a good place for them. What do you know about them? How have you made sense of them for you? Why is it that I often feel left hungry, somewhat lonely, as if I do all the work? If I wasn't pursuing, I would necessarily hear from them or really infrequently. I have to work so hard to be loved. Yeah, so far it's some desperation, it's like the understanding that I have of it, like this, yeah, intense need from something outside of myself. It seems that I seek out like some attention or like excitement because originally with Michael, I thought that looking at somebody, I got like a lot of like validation that I existed. And then without it, I feel empty. But I'm still seeking this excitement and that's boring. The emptiness is boring. And at so far, I've labeled the desperation as bad or the boredom is bad. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm jumbling my thoughts. Do you want him to interpret you? See what he understands? Michael usually does. How do you understand what he's just said? When you feel lonely, what rushes in most is boredom. When you feel that boredom, you want to do something with it, get into a relationship or we make poetry or do something big with it. What I'm hearing, and this is maybe totally off, you know, but something in the way you spoke made me wonder, do you feel legit? Sometimes when we, for whatever reason, don't really feel legit like we have a right to be here. We seek legitimization through the way that other people relate to us. They make us feel worthy, they make us feel deserving, they make us feel lovable. And it's not because you were not loved because your mom and dad seem to have showered you both. But there's something, maybe in the ten years of treatment, medical attention. It's like when you get so much medical attention, you don't get personal attention. Even though supposedly you get personal attention, but it's. Well, I was a problem to fix, yeah. That was an implicit message that I got. You were a problem to fix, or you were an adored child who had some problems that needed help. Yeah, that's the struggle. It's hard for me to connect to that. Go ahead, Michael. You seem to want to say something. Yeah. I want to understand why you feel it so deeply. Like the first thing you say is abandoned. It's a big, deep thing. And when we were having. You know, when I was helping you with your leg and stretching it with you, it wasn't because you were a problem. It was because it was like, oh, it's kind of fun. It made me feel useful a little bit, but that's not really how I interpreted it as a kid. It was more like, oh, this is just spending time. And it didn't feel like a problem. So I want to know how, where it turned into you feeling like a problem. Like there's something about the language of like illegitimate as a human that resonates, because I'm hearing you say that and knowing that that's real for you, but not connecting like whatever I was as a kid, as an identity to that. Like I can see dad setting up electrodes on my leg and like the cast. But I don't feel like a personal connection to it. So when you're saying like this is an enjoyable experience for me, I'm not like. I don't feel the experience of it, if that makes sense. And abandoned, like I think that's just a feeling, like it's not that deep to me. We have to take a brief break, so stay with us. And let's see where this goes. Support for Weshed We Begin comes from "Quince". It's summer and it's time to rethink your wardrobe. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on. And if that sounds good, why not try Queens? They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. Queens European linen pants and shirts are the perfect warm weather upgrade to add to your rotation. Starting at just $34, their teas are soft and easy to wear and their lightweight cotton sweaters are perfect for cooler summer nights. Lately, I've been eyeing the 100% linen scoop neck midi dress. It looks soft and breathable. Basically, the kind of dress you want to live in once the weather gets really warm. 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Because every time he pursues you and it's unrequited, the problem grows. It's an instant disidentifier from me. What do you mean? Like I don't say I experienced my childhood. Maybe that's not the first narrative that comes up. I had an issue and therefore I was taken care of. And so my issue was the thing that experienced my childhood. I'm a little like a face. I'm just trying to answer your question of like, talk about the problem. You can actually, I can invite the part of you that defines itself as the problem to speak for itself. It has a very clear voice. It's okay. It's hard to speak. Michael, you don't know me as well, but let me introduce myself. I am. I'm confused a lot. I feel like I don't want to be a burden to you, but I do feel that way. And I want. I want you to be proud of me. And like, seeing as you're, yeah, you're equal. And it isn't just you, it's also dad. It feels weird to like be a problem because you have your own life and your own problems. And I feel like I've taken up too much space. Yeah, I think I'm like shame, but I've never spoken with my heart. And where's your good fix it? Where's your good fix it? I wish I could make you feel better. I can't. And I love you. And I can't tell you a billion times how much I don't feel that you are a burden to me. I only have compassion, you know. And I have problems, but you have yours too. It's okay. You're not mutually exclusive. I kind of want to hear more of this more often. You don't often hear him speak like this? Not like in himself, in the problem. It's more, why weren't you there? You know, it's more of a blaming, but of putting that thing that problem outside of himself. And it gets a little confusing like you started by saying, you know, I'm so open to hearing it. Really, because I can't do anything about it, like all I can do is listen. I've never had the language, I think. I didn't realize that I've been separating a problem for myself. I think if I were able to identify with problem more, I wouldn't feel like I'd need to run to my call or get resentful, but to speak with my problem. I don't have some empathy for myself. Or did it fit for you like all? I guess I would worry less about you. And know that you can do it all, not all on your own, but this part can be not put on me and it would free me up a bit to be like, now what you're doing, I'm not going to anticipate a phone call where it's going to be like, okay, I have to take care of him. I think I can just, you know, pick up and talk and it won't be a big deal. So part of what you are resisting is that you experience when he reaches out to you that they become care-taking missions. And that he, on occasion, asks you how you are, but that's not really the focus of. It's pretty equal. It's really just about that initial picking up the phone. Okay, so it's a fear, but it's not really what happens. You anticipate burden, weight, responsibility, freight, but it's not actually what happens. Sometimes it does happen. Often it doesn't, you know, but I think, yes, most of it I'm thinking, what am I going to have to deal with? Help with now. Yeah, which it's not, no, it's not true. It's just the way it feels. - It sounds like you're asking yourself before you get on the phone, am I dealing with Tyler or if I am I dealing with the problem? Like if we're gonna use that language, who's speaking to me here? - Yeah, immediately. If we get on the phone and you say, how are you? I'm good. I know you want a specific response. That's gonna be emotional. So then you get emotional with that. Then we can both get emotional. Then we can mirror each other. Then we can, you know, like that. And I'm like, I just want to pick up the phone and say, hey, how are you? Good, good, great. What was going on? Cool. Let's play a game. It doesn't have to be that fear that I have, which is just this like tight knot. - Which reinforces me feeling this like, resent, like, well, how do I pick up the phone then? I'm not always gonna feel happy or like, some days I don't know, I think it's, you know, but if it's most often coming from a place of I feel abandoned, it's gonna feel like a big, heavy conversation, regardless of if that's a big or feeling or not, that word was loaded. It is, how can I not respond emotionally? Because that's quite emotional language, you know? - Is that the greeting? - It's, hi, how are you? What, no, it's like, how are you feeling? And then I come with a feeling thing, and it's like this thing that wasn't there for so long, and it only started when you became a therapist so that we can get to these deep crux issues. And I'm like, why does that be issues that we're talking about? That is not all the time, but like, I guess it's the fear I have of like, how it might be all the time. Sorry. (laughs) Well, that was all I, I mean, there's a reason we both became therapists, and the therapy room, especially has been for me not something of like, of I've been working on like, this isn't a problem to fix, you know, like, you don't always have to come to therapy to have, to be a problem, to have a problem, so that when I ask, how are you feeling? It doesn't have to mean, let's talk about the problem, and yours seems, well, I don't need to like, be upset with you, but yours is, do you bring levity to the room? And obviously it's more complicated than that, and like, you give more than that, you're your own therapist, but like, - Can I circle back to something you said before? Because I make a big distinction between, I have a problem, and I am a problem, or what I sense that you're always, and looting to be four is, I was a burden, and I sometimes thought their lives would be easier if this burden wasn't there. And at the same time, I got so much attention, because I had my challenges, and I had some serious health concerns. And so I didn't learn that I can get attention by just being light and fun and playful. That's his script. And then you said something about talking from your heart, and not from your resentment, but more from a feeling of shame. And then you kind of departed from that again, and you went back to your usual scripts. And it's very important for me to see them, but part of why we're here is because your both are getting tired of your usual scripts. You can roleplay each other, and you'll be perfect to the teeth of what the other person says feels and breathes. But the problem was talking actually with a fair amount of kindness before. And I just want to invite it back. And we are just using this word because it's the one that you uttered before, and we can name it anything we want. You want. Thank you. It's an invitation for both of you to go inside of you, rather than do the protective, I'm going to blame you. And that's for both of you, by the way. - I'm not going to make this cry, just that look at my ears. I often want to thank you for protecting me. Like you're reaching out to do this. Or speaking first, because I don't know how to express myself, and I admire you for that. - Protecting you. - From social interactions. I keep thinking about, you know, kind of hiding behind my call when I hurt kids, 'cause I didn't know if I'd be judged or hurt. - What are you saying invite us to talk about some place from inside of us? I immediately want to say like, I miss being children together. It's something I'm worn most often. And I miss the lightness of it, 'cause I did experience it as something light that I could just draw you out and easily make you laugh. And we could just kind of giggle for a long time. And when I go inside with you, like if we were around each other, I experience such life, such an itality. It's such fun, you know? And I most often want to give that to you. Give that to us, you know? It's just so nice to connect there. I would love to do that with you. And like for you to bring that to me too, you know? We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us. - Support for Where Should We Begin Comes From? - Support for Where Should We Begin? - Let me ask you, how is your relationship with water? No, I'm not asking whether you enjoy the rain or whether you like to swim or whether you're a Pisces. What I mean is, are you getting your eight glasses a day? Or do you find yourself sputting that be fillable water bottle across the room and thinking, "You again, do I have to drink you?" We all have to drink water and staying hydrated is one of the simplest ways to feel your best. 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Get 10% off your first order site wide with code [email protected]. That's o-s-e-a-malliboo.com. To your seats are the relief. loan ever? You know, we make time. For fun? To talk. To talk is very nice, but it's not the same as to play. Michael actually, before this session, he's like, she's probably going to ask us if he has any time to play with each other. Here she did. I predict it will be she. No, not so. Well, it wouldn't matter so much. The play wouldn't matter so much if we didn't have the the crux is why we come in here. Just like you don't often experience each other as this fun light thing all the time. How often do you initiate Michael? Once a week maybe? Initiate. Yeah. It's not the same as feel obligated. I got to figure that out. They've become mixed up. Yeah. I've been into right music and when I write music, it's like an easy way for me to just feel like, hey, let's talk. I want to share something with you. It's just nice. This is fun. Not is he worried about me? I worried about him and he's not going to, whatever. So it's kind of an excuse to like connect without having to be so blocked. You both worry about each other or primarily you worry about him. I don't know if you worry about me. I don't know if I worry about you. I'm excited to hear about your life. But you think his life is easier than yours? Michael? Yeah. I mean it's a strange word but you get what I'm asking. Yeah. And you've thought that for a long time. He is an easier time than me. He is lighter than me. That doesn't mean it's easier. Why did you just swallow? Oh, hey. Both of you are watching. Stop midway. So you came into defending it. I'm not asking for it. It's a feeling. It is how I felt. I'm not saying it's like right. It's also not about it right or wrong. It's there's envy. There's a sense that he's had it easier. He may have had it easier on some things, maybe not on others, but they're not the ones that are most significant to you. And he looks at you and responds to you from exactly that place. He too on some level thinks it's had it easier than you. He doesn't think his lightness is all there is to him, but you do on some level, you know, you have this sequential girlfriend. It comes in into little comments. Go on a motorcycle. He goes on a motorcycle and like bangs up his body and like does his big physical risky thing, you know. He does. Yeah. Not you. No. He does. Yeah. That's like how that's going to relate to you besides worrying. We'll become a therapist. But it's also I want to be able to do what everybody else does. Tired of always defining myself through that limitation. I mean, I'm improvising here, but I'm looking at your bodies and faces to know if I'm on track or not. But here's the thing I was thinking. I said, the thing about twins, identical twins, is that you actually think you know each other inside out. And on the one hand, you totally do. There's something that no other unit in the human species can have that. But on the other hand, it also at times curtails curiosity. Because you know what's to ask. And I'm imagining that in fact, especially as you grow older and as you begin to have more separate lives, not just geographically, but also, you know, they're not carbon copy. You're not in front of the mirror. You're not just extensions of each other, etc. Is that you actually realize there's somebody to discover? There's something to explore here. There's some questions to ask. There's less assumptions to be made. And that can have on the one side, ah, that's uncomfortable. Because I like to feel like this is a territory that's utterly transparent to me called you. And on the other side, there is the, this is an amazing thing to have a territory that feels so familiar. An inside world that I think I know by heart to realize that no, not so much. And to me, a bit of what you're going through, this is one aspect because there's many ways to look at it. But it's a developmental transition. It started with college, but it continues in which you have been so defined through how much you identify with each other. And now comes the stage of how you will differentiate from each other. And that process of differentiation, you are what is called monos you got twins, right? So how do you do that? It's biologically challenging or interesting. So let alone it being psychologically so. I suggest something. Of course, there's no permission to be asked. Between me or each other, I kind of like get rid of the language, you know, because it's I don't know if I would have said it as correctly. Me or me means a feeling that when I look at you, I see me. When I look at that. It's that. It's pretending we're not each other's mirror because we're not in a way, you know. You know, I met another couple of identical twins on here, of which one came out gay and the other was straight. And one of the members, the sentence as I always remember is about how when they would do business together, one would pass for the other because he felt that in their small town, Texas as a gay man, he stood no chance. And so when they would not know which one of the two he was, he would literally melt, blend himself into the identity of his brother. And I visualized it as he was describing it. And I thought this way of being able to blend in with each other. That's what I mean is the mirror of the image of the mirror. But please give me yours because it just was my association. You want to get rid of it, but you want to get rid of what? The obligation to blend, you know, and just come at each other with not knowing. But you think that the sense of obligation is what Tyler puts on you. Or do you see your sense of obligation also as emerging from you? I'm not sure. No, Tyler's worked on a lot of things and he's been able to not bring that to me. So I do think most often now it's coming from inside of me. And it says what? When it speaks to you? I'm going to have to put out a fire. I'm going to have to view mirror. I don't know what other word it would be. I'm going to have to go back into this thing that I never really felt like was there might mean sometimes, but we're always different. So I don't know. It kind of says like don't make me into something that I'm not. Which is an extension of half of a twin? Yeah. Which we are. What's wrong with that? The joy and living has been like learning our differences. Like all my hopes for you, all my like, I don't know, I wish life wasn't so hard so often, you know. I didn't feel like such a intense thing. But I don't know if that causes you any issues, but it's loving. I see you dive so quickly into so many parts of life in a very big way in a fiery way. And it's beautiful and also causes me worry. And I work most with my therapist to let it go, to let you go. And knowing I can't control you or do any, you know, let you, yeah, I can't control you. And control how you react or how you what you bring to me or whatever. So I, that's like the big thing I wanted to say was that regardless of how you affect me or anything that I hope that life can be fun free. you to not so heavy. Thank you. I wish I could get rid of the expectation that you have for me. Not work on it. The expectation that you too could enjoy life with more levity without endangering yourself. If I understood you well, he experiences a recklessness. He got into a motorcycle accident and was in the hospital having the last year. Was it last year? Everybody's sobbing around him and he wakes up and he's like, "Why is everybody crying?" And when I heard the news, it was very life-ending. If you died, I feel there'd be such a big part of me that would die. And I don't want to lose you. And then in these past few, whatever months you said, "I'd get on a motorcycle again." And I'm like, "Jesus Christ again." And it isn't just that. With women, too. It's like, "Just to ride or die." She is amazing. This is so wonderful. I'm in love, a weekend, two weeks in. I'm like, "Why does it have to be so big?" And will I always have to worry because of it. And so I'm learning to just let it try to let it go because there's nothing I can do. And my hope comes from that. I hope that it isn't always that way for me, but for you, too, because I want to risk your life to try to live it. Yeah. See that again? You don't have to. You don't have to risk your life to try to live it. You just brought a whole other layer to your description of your worry or of your obligation. Think you clarified a lot. And it's way beyond what you started with when you talked about resentment. There's fear, not just worry, there's serious fear, there's grief, there's love, there's lightness and laughter. There's a lot of different things in this very bridge, layered, deep relationship. I think that when you get annoyed with each other and you can't go to the first floor, resentment, you're missing the boat, you're letting your annoyances direct the play, when in fact there's so many more things going on. There's also envy, there's also abandonment, there's also shame, there's a lot of different very complex emotions here. I feel that I have a lot of work to do and I like that you brought up curiosity with each other and I think an exploration about the mirroring and the biological piece to that versus the psychological one is important for me. I think that I would like to add on this menu, also your deeper understanding of the fear that your brother has. I think when he just says I worry about you, it's way more complicated than just this. Level of the statement. It's echoed in my mother and my sister too. Okay, thank you very much. I know we're leaving this with three dots at the end of a sentence, but I hope it creates a movement for you to continue it. Yeah, it does. Thank you. Thank you. This was an Aster calling. A one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Aster, that could be answered in a 40 or a 50 minute phone call, send a voice message and Aster might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where should we begin with Aster Paral is produced by magnificent noise, or part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibli, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Ann. Original music, an additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin, are Aster Paral and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.